There is occasional argument on whether the Knossos was a stabilizer or a destabilizer of jump nodes. I find it interesting that we have never jumped through a node, a Knossos being on the far side. I think that it is infact a destabilizer--an artificial lock on jump nodes setup by the Ancients to attempt to stop the Shivan advance...
I'd just like to note that this thread has an aweful lot of speculation and "IIRC"s and "IMHO"s with little actual facts to back any of these theories up.
I'd just like to note that this thread has an aweful lot of speculation and "IIRC"s and "IMHO"s with little actual facts to back any of these theories up.
I find it interesting that we have never jumped through a node, a Knossos being on the far side.But we have. Frequently. How did we get back from "Into the Lion's Den", for example? We jumped through a node with an active Knossos on the other side ;)
If you want to be technical:
- 1 Knossos device in Gamma Draconis
- Presumably, 1 Knossos device on the other end that the GTVA arrived into the nebula through
- 1 Knossos encountered on the mission the Psamtik was destroyed
- 2 Knossoses in Into the Lion's Den, with (presumably) 1 more on the other end that the Sathanases arrived from
Total: 6. It depends on whether you're talking about a Knossos "corridor" or the individual devices. But yes, Snipes does refer to "Knossos Device Number 3", implying 3 "devices", whatever you take that to mean.
If you want to be technical:
- 1 Knossos device in Gamma Draconis
- Presumably, 1 Knossos device on the other end that the GTVA arrived into the nebula through
- 1 Knossos encountered on the mission the Psamtik was destroyed
- 2 Knossoses in Into the Lion's Den, with (presumably) 1 more on the other end that the Sathanases arrived from
There is one rather obvious question that I've not seen an answer to from the people who think that the knossos is a lock.
Who the hell locked it? :confused:
The Ancients were already dead. Their homeworld was gone. Somehow I doubt they could have gotten near enough to the Shivans to lock the portal and even if they did what would it achieve? Their world was dead. And even if they did lock it why didn't the Shivans unlock it? They use the other knossos portals quite happily and they're the masters of subspace. Hell why didn't they just blow it up?
IIRC you don't need one on the other side. If you noticed on that one escort mission with the lucidity, no Knossos. in Into the Lions Den, no other Knossos. So canonically, you only need one Knossos to save a node. Otherwise we'd be screwed in getting back to earth.
EDIT: woop, hades wins.
If There was another Knossos on the other side of Draconis, The Nebula Then You would have seen it.
He said, "We Found Knossos Number 3".
I don't see very much evidence in FS2 saying that the Knossos works as a stabilizer.
From our odyssey into Hell, we return with a gift: the Ancient technology to build a portal between Delta Serpentis and Sol. To restore our link to planet Earth. To return home after all these years.
SOME STUFF
At 3320 Vasudan Galactic Time, we received a distress signal from the GTD Aquitaine. The destroyer came under attack 4,000 meters from the Gamma Draconis jump node. The SC Urobach and its fighter escort incapacitated the Aquitaine's engines and fighterbay.
QuoteHe said, "We Found Knossos Number 3".
You're sure?
This just keeps getting better. Another juggernaut has jumped in from Knossos 3.
I don't see very much evidence in FS2 saying that the Knossos works as a stabilizer. Other then the fact that you have to activate it to use it, everything else I've seen (from the side we have seen Knossos at) suggests to me that the Knossos is a destabilizer. We have seen numerous Knossos nodes...
Gamma Draconis to The Nebula--the Knossos is on the known Gamma Draconis side and the Shivans, while obviously active in that segment of the nebula, haven't traversed the node until after the Trinity does
A few other things to consider... we have only seen Knossos devices from and beyond Gamma Draconis. We know the Ancients were on Altair and that they held HUNDREDS of systems in more then one galaxy. Looking at the official node map, there is generally three or more stable nodes in every system--that seems fairly typical to me, as 3+ is necessary to make a "web" map of nodes. If the case is that most/all systems have 3-4 stable jump nodes at a time, then it seems that quite a few far-out systems are lacking in nodes. If nodes were from the far side of the known node, it's likely that there is a very good reason for it.
Quote
He said, "We Found Knossos Number 3".
You're sure?
What? Do I look Shivan to you? Uh-oh. Take a look at this. Knossos device number three. 150 clicks out in right field. Where the hell are we?That should clear that up.
Everything here leads me to believe that the Knossos devices were constructed to prevent the Shivans from continuing the advance.As for that, why spend two years or however long it takes to build such a massively huge technological marvel while your species is facing imminent extinction, when you can just spend one week collecting a massive amount of explosives? Destroying a jump node is trivial compared to building something like a Knossos. And if you end up needing it later, then you can go to the trouble of building a Knossos - Helped by the fact that you won't have Shivans breathing down your neck while you're at it. Afterall, we have canon evidence that regardless of any speculation that they could be used as destabilizers, they can definitely be used for the opposite.
If the Ancients did indeed use the Knossos devices to seal off the nodes, wouldn't we see more nodes closer to Vasudan space, keeping in mind the fact that the Ancients' core systems probably consist of what is now Vasudan space?
I think the ancients used the Knossos portals to explore and expand their empire. They built them to stabilize unstable nodes as they traveled further away from their home systems and that is why they are always on the side of the subspace corridor closest to the GTVA systems. Also the time and material cost alone would suggest that the portals were in place before they encountered the Shivans. These portals were also most likely what drew the Shivan's attention in the first place (Being born from subspace as they are) and they followed the portals back to the ancients' home systems and annihilated them for it.
Actually, the comm nodes could mean that the Shivan homeworld, or at least, nearest Shivan Installation (shudder. Imagine hitting a Shivan Installation) is of enough distance that the comm nodes are needed for reliable communications. It could also mean that Shivan comm tech is inferior to Terran and Vasudan tech.
Beyond the 3rd Knossos portal? Its anybody's guess. More shivans, definitely. Shivan Installation? Possible. Shivan planet, also possible. Shivan civillans, also possible. Like I said, anybody's guess.
Actually, the comm nodes could mean that the Shivan homeworld, or at least, nearest Shivan Installation (shudder. Imagine hitting a Shivan Installation) is of enough distance that the comm nodes are needed for reliable communications. It could also mean that Shivan comm tech is inferior to Terran and Vasudan tech.
Beyond the 3rd Knossos portal? Its anybody's guess. More shivans, definitely. Shivan Installation? Possible. Shivan planet, also possible. Shivan civillans, also possible. Like I said, anybody's guess.
Should've been a campaign done about what lied beyond THAT. Shame that capella was sealed off, as was any chance of making campaigns of going back there.
But what if someone did a campaign of re-opening the Vega - Capella node ... *wink wink , nudge nudge to developers ;7 )
Actually, the comm nodes could mean that the Shivan homeworld, or at least, nearest Shivan Installation (shudder. Imagine hitting a Shivan Installation) is of enough distance that the comm nodes are needed for reliable communications. It could also mean that Shivan comm tech is inferior to Terran and Vasudan tech.
Beyond the 3rd Knossos portal? Its anybody's guess. More shivans, definitely. Shivan Installation? Possible. Shivan planet, also possible. Shivan civillans, also possible. Like I said, anybody's guess.
Should've been a campaign done about what lied beyond THAT. Shame that capella was sealed off, as was any chance of making campaigns of going back there.
But what if someone did a campaign of re-opening the Vega - Capella node ... *wink wink , nudge nudge to developers ;7 )
Shh. Vasudan! SHH! Don't make me do spoilers!
Actually, the comm nodes could mean that the Shivan homeworld, or at least, nearest Shivan Installation (shudder. Imagine hitting a Shivan Installation) is of enough distance that the comm nodes are needed for reliable communications. It could also mean that Shivan comm tech is inferior to Terran and Vasudan tech.
Beyond the 3rd Knossos portal? Its anybody's guess. More shivans, definitely. Shivan Installation? Possible. Shivan planet, also possible. Shivan civillans, also possible. Like I said, anybody's guess.
Should've been a campaign done about what lied beyond THAT. Shame that capella was sealed off, as was any chance of making campaigns of going back there.
But what if someone did a campaign of re-opening the Vega - Capella node ... *wink wink , nudge nudge to developers ;7 )
Shh. Vasudan! SHH! Don't make me do spoilers!
*eggs you on to do spoilers, or at least point him in the right direction*
My theory? Is that the remaining Juggernaughts were left behind so that once the major threat to the Shivans was neutralized, they didn't have to 'walk' all the way back; they already trashed the Colosuss. Nothing else has the firepower/armour to stand toe to toe with a SJ, and the Colosuss killed a neutered SJ too. The remaining Juggys were left so that they could kick the GTVA's ass left pronto, without having to move the whole fleet back.
If the shield can be recalibrated to absorb the energy produced by the supernova, why can't they survive?
The supernova is the most powerfull explosion in the universe
Nope. My theory is that the enemy system was at the other end of the universe; conventional subspace would be too slow. By the time they reached, the Shivans might have lost the war. So the Sathani used Capella's sun to tear a whole through the fabric of space, and use the energy from the explosion to travel back to their system's jump node. It would make sense that the gravitational force of the sun would actually make the barrier between subspace and normal space weaker, so they destroyed to sun to aid in returning home quickly. As for the Sathani that remained behind, those are some of the loose ends i need to tie up.
The supernova is the most powerfull explosion in the universe
From what I understand whatever causes gamma-ray bursts are bigger. AFAIK the leading theory is a hypernova (don't you just love inflation in astronomical terms. I'm waiting for a meganova).
The supernova is the most powerfull explosion in the universe - the ammount of energy released by it is mindbloglingly huge. It VAPORIZES whole planets and spreds onwards.There's power overwhelming!
In fact, IIRC scientist recently dicovered a even bigger supernova.
And there is no such thing as invulnerabiltiy...it's only the matter of not enough applied force ;7
And most likely a nebula that's now filled with shivans like the nebula beyond gamma draconis. If i know one thing, the shivans already got enough unlimited fuel supplies. Two of them, two nebulas of perfect hydrogen to power ships.
I'm surprised in the fs2 campaign you never got to escort convoys of gas miners into the nebula. From my understanding it'd be a lot easier to mine gas from a nebula than from a gas giant. And as long as it's easy to procure i could see the gtva hopping all over all you can eat gas buffet.
From what we already know this was already happening. After the gtva went into the nebula, several missions after you finally have the prometheus s offered to you and a description of why because of gas mining vessels collecting nebular gas.
Isn't the mission where you rendevouz with the Colossus with 2 Gas Miners in the Nebula?
Though, in all honesty, Gas Mining from a Nebula in reality would be a pretty pointless task, the gas density in a nebula is incredibly low iirc.
Sathanas subspace -? weapon.
I think the Subspace weapon sort of warped the inside of the sun, making it collapse on itself, and then allowed them to jump using the gravitational stress.
I am the antichrist
How the hell would you "disrupt" that balance on a sun? :wtf:
The whole human nuclear arsenal combined is insignificant comapred to one solar flare. :eek2:
Hell you could hurl Earth itself into the Sun and that still wouldn't make it go nova... :eek2:
We're talking energy levels and forces so mindblogingly huge that you can't practicly comprehend them....
black holes. (they are reoccuring explosions)
How the hell would you "disrupt" that balance on a sun? :wtf:
The whole human nuclear arsenal combined is insignificant comapred to one solar flare. :eek2:
Hell you could hurl Earth itself into the Sun and that still wouldn't make it go nova... :eek2:
We're talking energy levels and forces so mindblogingly huge that you can't practicly comprehend them....
Geez, i'm not talking about blowing up a star per say. I mentioned the way you could do this is by removing mass from the sun. I also mentioned in many binary star systems that this alraedy happens. One star with it's gravity will start pulling mass from the other star, and by removing mass from a star, it'll eventually go critical after a certain amount of time where it starts blasting out some of it's mass in a huge cosmological event because quite easily the contracting/expanding balance stars have would have easily been disrupted.
Now the gtva should build a huge ass vacuum cleaner in space or subspace vortex that can be held open.
Knossos devices are ALL the same from the outside--it appears to me that they were mass-produced (there are 3+ Knossos devices, meaning that there are 12+ of each of the two unique parts). That being said, they would likely have to be ferried into position and calibrated to work as either stabilizer or destabilizer. If, in the condition, that they were stabilizers, how would the Ancients have known where to point the Knossos devices? Wouldn't they rather "practice" on a known node? If they can figure out how to calibrate the Knossos devices properly, there would no longer be anything stopping them from ever again expanding--they have the artificial means to leave galaxies.
Maybe the Knosso portals weren't made by the Ancients. Maybe they were made by an even older civilization.
Damn, why does everyone got to think this?
The Iceni was not built to house the ETAK, only to transport it to GD. ETAK could have probably fit onto a much smaller ship, but the Iceni would have a higher chance of survival.
"Where's Admiral Bosch?"
"They took him away, with Gibson and Sarno and about a dozen others. You've got to get us out of here NOW!"
"Is the communication technology on board?"
"Listen to me! Bosch initiated the self-destruct sequence! We have only a few minutes left!"
Why the hell would shivans capture bosch only to kill him? What sense is there in it? Shivans have been shown in every instance (and espiecally that cargo ship cutscene in FS1) that if they are going to kill someone, they don't do it nicely. They kill [the puny humans]. Taking bosch aboard one of their ships instead of just killing him outright, only to kill him once he is aboard, defies all canon shivan activity.
2) While you're talking precedents, it's also worth noting that the shivans never took prisoners. They killed everyone they encountered face-to-face. Why should Bosch be different? He's more arrogant than the usual member of his lesser species? I don't think that's going to do more than buy him some time as a curiousity piece before the horrible tortuous killing process begins.
@Snail - That is just my take, and what Kara said supports it.
@S-99 - The supernova unpassability part might have been a bonus, but i don't think that it was the main reason.
The shivans are the symptom of a bigger problem. This is true since it came from V, but there's nothing to build off of it. In fact to the community being told this means nothing. No one can do anything with it. It's stupid like that. And get's even dumber with the shivans being the "galaxy's immune system". Shivans are just another species like terrans and vasudans. Vasudans and terrans have a lot more in common with each other than say something that's completely alien in all respects compared to them which is shivans.
Shivans being the great destroyers wiping out other races that are capable of subspace travel. Get's really dumb and pretty pointless calling them the great destroyers calling out for the annihilation of your species just because your people have a couple of star systems and can go elsewhere in the universe because of subspace travel. Even if your species put less developed species in shackles and servitude, the shivans get deified as the great destroyers because there so ****ing alien that anything the species that's going to get annihilated considers standard will not work with the shivans. That's why standard communication can't work, body gestures, anything (especially in person diplomacy). Shivans are native to space, vasudans are terrans come from habitable planets. Terrans and vasudans come from gravity environments and use sound waves to communicate. Shivans live in zero-g and use quantum pulses and communicate (there's no sound in a vacuum). So this also equates shivans not having ears to hear sound, if you evolved in a vacuum the evolutionary process is not going to give you ears that hear sound. Shivans having their own version of ears might as well be compared to a miniature radio antennae that receives signals(being able to pick up other shivan quantum pulses) and a radio broadcasting antennae (a shivan being able to send it's own quantum pulses). The fact that shivans use quantum pulses to communicate in space makes perfect sense since there's no sound in space, and shivans will certainly not hear what any species has to say until bosch came around. Also the fact that shivans have tons of limbs in an odd configuration makes them pretty alien as well, the compound eyes could be compared to spiders i guess. So screaming at a shivan is as effective as a shivan sending quantum pulses to a human or vasudan (no one can hear each other).
Shivans aren't a force that the universe sprung on everybody who's space capable in the universe. The shivans are not a force of nature or immune system. This deifying comes from the ancients making the shivans seem god like in the first place, and then vasudans and terrans not sure if they should think of the shivans as god like or a force or nature.
Shivans are yet just another species in the fs universe. Sort of like how terrans and vasudans are species as well. But, just like how some species have some things in common (sort of like chimpanzees(terrans) and orangutangs(vasudans)), some species have nothing in common (sort of like how orangutangs(vasudans) and chimpanzees(terrans) don't have anything in common with say a spider (shivans)). The shivans can still be the symptom of a bigger problem, but not as a force of nature or being god-like(that's the gayest thing to hear for what the shivans could be), the shivans could be the symptom of a bigger problem say if the shivans are being bothered by something major and this in turns ends up making the shivans bother other species (just an example).
Maybe unknown to the Terrans, the Vasudans provoked them?
On an unrelated note, one issue I've wondered about concerning the Knossos portals is that the Gamma Draconis one had been shut down (and was reactivated by the Trinity), but the other two were presumably always active. Why was only the first one inactive like that?
Did the Shivans come from GD in FS1?
Also, I thought the reason given for the Shivan's somewhat random appearance in Ross 128 and later in dead-end systems like Ikeya was not that they could use nodeless jumps, but that their subspace drives are considerably more sophisticated than the GTVA's, and they can traverse more unstable nodes that the GTVA can't.
Did the Shivans come from GD in FS1?
I doubt it. GD is never mentioned in FS1 and in fact isn't even marked as such on the FS1 nodemap.
It's not hard to believe that it was the GTI who started off the war.
My question would be:
WHY?
"Oh lookie! A super-advanced, highly developed alien race with an invincible superdestroyer! Let's invite them to come fight with us, especially considering our race is war-weary and at a stalemate against the Vasudans!"
:rolleyes:
If the Shivans could in fact make jumps without nodes, the GTVA wouldn't have put so much effort into sealing off Capella later on.Except that the Shivans apparently use a "nodeless" jump (or a jump using an unstable node) to bypass the Terran blockade in Antares just before "Enter the Dragon".
In one of the FS2 command briefings, Petrarch says that they came in without using any nodes. Although he then sort of contradicts himself by saying that "they are as dependent on nodes as we are."Not exactly. He says "Skeptics have argued the Shivans made intersystem jumps without using nodes..." and then he goes on to say, "However, scientists assure us this plan will work."
If the Shivans could in fact make jumps without nodes, the GTVA wouldn't have put so much effort into sealing off Capella later on.Except that the Shivans apparently use a "nodeless" jump (or a jump using an unstable node) to bypass the Terran blockade in Antares just before "Enter the Dragon".