Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: AlphaOne on July 08, 2007, 07:37:31 pm
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A quaestion popped into mi hean these days.
Are there any other sentient races out there beyond GTVA space ?
This is a problematic question because for all we know all othr races out ther on an equal level of tech with the GTVA or even less advanced as the GTVA but still capable of subspace travel would likeli be destroyed by the shivans.
However I have come to the conclusion that this is may not be the case. Why? Because as we know shivans have a habbit of appearing in arasd where there are usualy wars which in term bring forth much subspace activity. However subspace activity on an equal level of that during a war could be brough forth by intens comerce between different planets or solar sistems!
So it is my belief that there should be othr advanced races out ther beyond GTVA controled space.
This is further reinforced by the Ancient monologues which sugest they encountered many other races advanced enough to posses subspace travel . Now the shivans might ignore them if they were harmless enough but not the ancient which were a serious threat.
What is your take on this?
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Sentient races planetside, yes. Spacefaring, I would find very difficult to believe. The Shivans seem to be acting as a galactic police force (or the "Great Preservers" that the game calls them) and wiping out species that become spacefaring quickly (the Ancients, Vasudans, and Terrans). The only reasons the Terrans and Vasudans haven't been wiped out yet is because they've managed to repel the Shivans twice.
Or who knows, there could be another race out there that's scored the same luck as the GTVA. All I'm saying is that when a race uses subspace for the first time, the Shivans are automatically tipped off and move to wipe out or contain whatever race it is. They might've detected said new subspace usage and used the Great Capella Freeway to get there quickly, seeing as how the GTVA was quite thoroughly limited and contained already with most of its fleet wiped out in Capella.
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As I recall, the Ancients monologues also state that the ancients had a habit of wiping out races they encountered. Though there may well be races way, way outside of GTVA space, it's going to take many years to explore the space previously occupied by the ancients, before reaching any systems that have any possibility of housing a sentient species not wiped out by the ancients or shivans. I wouldn't say it's totally impossible, as a galaxy is a big place, but you're talking about centuries of exploration, travel, and dodging/fighting shivans. Of course, something could be a single jump outside of Regulus, but it seems unlikely.
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Or they could invent some superfast way of going through subspace and be able to explore the entire galaxy in a week. Or something. You never know what the crazy people making the storylines will come up with next ;)
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Or they could invent some superfast way of going through subspace and be able to explore the entire galaxy in a week. Or something. You never know what the crazy people making the storylines will come up with next ;)
They already made one. It's called sync :P
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The Damn reason it takes so long to explore is cause the ships are slow.Especially Destroyers.
And with sync It is Screwy.It takes them all over the Galaxy.And were they dont want to go.
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well it would be boring if it DID work, now wouldn't it?? :p
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The surest sign of intelegent life in the univers is that none of it has tried to contact us.. :)
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and most certainly not command. :lol:
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As I recall, the Ancients monologues also state that the ancients had a habit of wiping out races they encountered. Though there may well be races way, way outside of GTVA space, it's going to take many years to explore the space previously occupied by the ancients, before reaching any systems that have any possibility of housing a sentient species not wiped out by the ancients or shivans. I wouldn't say it's totally impossible, as a galaxy is a big place, but you're talking about centuries of exploration, travel, and dodging/fighting shivans. Of course, something could be a single jump outside of Regulus, but it seems unlikely.
I feel it relevant to point out that the Ancients were exterminated 8,000 years ago. And that both the Terrans and Vasudans are within very close range of the Ancient homeworld (or, at least, a populous Ancient planet): Altair IV. That means that either they developed naturally within those 8,000 years or the Ancients enslaved or ignored them. Therefore I do not find all that unlikely that there would be other races somewhat nearby that got treated in a similar manner, and may have subspace capabilities.
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Then again, we humans are supposedly backwards, having crazy amounts of technology but almost no brains :P
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except for a lucky few like Einstein :doubt:
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Well I so not believe that the ancient wiped out all of the advanced races. Some of tehm could very well have given up or joined with them after some "persuasion" ! I mean sure they were a super power but even super powers would likeli avoid casualties if they can "convince" you of the "error" of your ways. Also please note that the ancients had expanded for years even centuries into the galaxy conquering enslaving etc. And yet they did not came unde imediat attack by the shivans because they weer using subspace. A more correct way of putting it is that they were the galactic thug while the shivans acted as the galactic police force. Sure they ende up decimating the ancients empire and presumably exterminated them. But hey nobody is perfect.
Perhaps they learned from the fact that destroyng an entire race is not the best way to maintain the peace......who knows....!
All i'm sayng is that even 10% of the races conqured by the ancients survived and evolved (from the ancients monologues to it is sugested there were many races perhaps hundreds) then the GTVA if it continues to expand and colonize will surely run into another race(s). To me it is not a question of will it happen but rather when will iot happen.
Sure not any time soon because I do not see the GTVA capable of funding any long range expeditions but then again since the GTVA is starving for new jumpnodes (safe jumpnodes) or rather they will definetly try to discover any and all subspace jumpnodes in order to better protect themselfs then that will surely lead to them running into some other race.
I wonder if they will go about this the same way the Ancients did will they try to work toghether or will they try to subdue them? If i'm gooing to with how GTVA command thinks then they wil shoot firts then ask questions and when the questions are not answered they will blame it on some admiral or captain or maybe even AlphaOne execuet him and replace him with his clone.
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I actually had an idea along these lines, but at present I have no way of implementing it to my satisfaction, as the way I imagine them in my mind is rather detailed and I have (as yet) no modeling ability.
The species in question would be called the Chalgasi, a semi-humanoid species that evolved on a heavily metallic world. Not metallic to the point that they're robot people or something (that seems dumb to me frankly), but they, and most terrestrial animal species native to Chalas, would have ferrochitinous armor plating.
I've thought through what their ship designs would be like, too (including civilian ships) but have yet to actually draw them. Mostly they'd be vertically-oriented ships mounting railguns and very, very heavy armor plating.
(Think of something with the overall shape of a Kushan Mothership or a Sharlin. Then picture it if it were kitbashed together from the head of a Nebulon-B and several WW2 model battleships. You'd get something approximating a Chalgasi destroyer.)
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Actualy the reason this popped into mi head is because i'm stuck on a storyline ! I have several species in mi head but with almost no modding skills yet or the time to learn i'm rather stuck at writing. But then again there is a question :what kind of species would be left alone by the shivans? would they be primitive or advanced similar to the GTVA ??
Who knows i'm just asuming here ! But asuming there are none left besides vaudans shivans and terrans would be a grave mistake an an arogant asumption.
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what kind of species would be left alone by the shivans
None?
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There are at least one (http://www.sectorgame.com/aldo) or two (http://www.sectorgame.com/twistedinfinities/index2.php), or three (point five I guess) (http://www.game-warden.com/raa/) out there so far. Of those only the Lizard/Bektah ships are available for download though.
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I would think even in the Milkyway alone there has to be a few primitive species left (meaning only as advanced as basic solar spaceflight, NO SUBSPACE)...
Now think of the many other Galaxies out there. Maybe the Shivans can't get there or it's too far to matter, OR maybe the Shivans ARE extra galactic and that's their home base!!!!
Maybe there are other "pockets" of resistance out there and none of them are aware of the others...
(Like the GTVA)
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Joshua would like to state that the GTVA is... small, there are a lot more stars out there, not all of them could be blown to bits by the shivans
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As I recall, the Ancients monologues also state that the ancients had a habit of wiping out races they encountered. Though there may well be races way, way outside of GTVA space, it's going to take many years to explore the space previously occupied by the ancients, before reaching any systems that have any possibility of housing a sentient species not wiped out by the ancients or shivans. I wouldn't say it's totally impossible, as a galaxy is a big place, but you're talking about centuries of exploration, travel, and dodging/fighting shivans. Of course, something could be a single jump outside of Regulus, but it seems unlikely.
In 8000 years new races can emerge from the ruins of the old ones...
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Like the 9 cities of Troy...
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Erm.... New civilizations can emerge, yes. New species, however, need a few billion more years atop the first eight-thousand. I can grant, however, that when a race has developed to the point of interstellar travel, it would be difficult to hunt and reduce a population to levels that are no longer self-sustaining. That contains its own counter-argument, though.... If on your first trek to the stars, you met a superior race that essentially wasted civilization as you knew it, the civilization that you built on the ruins of old would probably be highly insular and xenophobic. Even those species that did survive the ancients and shivans would probably be going to great lengths to keep a low-profile.
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Exterminating a civilization is nigh impossible, unless you render a whole planet completely uninhabitable.
The ancients CONQUERED, they used planets for their resources (unlike Shivans) so I doubt very much tehy completely exterminated anyone.
The monolouges? That "mea culpa" wailing? Probably overblownin it's scope and using too big a words..
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The thing is, you're dependent on the Jump Node network. For example, imagine that in order to get to a Star that is 20 Light years away using the Subspace Node system, remembering that the Nodes seem to find their exits almost randomly in real-space terms, you could find that you have to travel through hundreds of unpopulated systems to reach it.
Now, assuming the Shivans are a 'reactive' race, the story of Freespace 2 suggests that the Shivan fleet responded to the incursion in the Nebula. Either they had 80 Juggernauts in the area, just in case, or the Fleet mobilised very early in the campaign, possibly as soon as the Shivans were aware of the NTF in the Nebula, I'm not certain of the time frame of FS2, but I get the feeling the gap between the NTF entering the Nebula, and the Juggernauts arriving was around 8-12 months.
I start veering more into theory here, but we have to assume that 80 Juggernauts is not a small investment of resource, even for the Shivans.
So, you have a race that has a massive fleet that responds when they encounter a new enemy, you can even fit the Lucifer 'Scout' theory into that. Even with 20-30 Fleets of the same size in operation, the odds of the Shivans being able to track down every inhabited system that is connected to an enormous jump-node system (particuarly for races that can stabilise weak nodes) is extremely small.
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About other civ. keeping a low profile is not such a valid arguement or even something that might be a plausible rule. This is largely due to the example of the GTVA ! I mean they got trashed man during the first great war. An I do mean trashed ! We have to agree that what was left of the terrans and vasudans was a mere shadow of they former potential and in a way power. Just imagine if they somehow managed to learn from the war and form the GTVA but without loosing they homeworlds they source of power.
they would of been 10 time more powerfull during the second great war. Not powerfull enough to stop the shivans perhaps but a lot more powerfull.
However if what races survived out there after the ancients were crushed by the shivans would surely try to find a way to make themselfs powerfull enough so as not to have the same fate. Because a policy of stagnation and isolation will only hurt them in the long run . Nothing good ever came from isolation.
Sure they may try to make it so that they do not attract unwanted atention like let's say start a war amongst themselfs or start a war with another civilization they encounter but they will definetly try to become more powerfull more advanced so that if the shivans decided to attack they could at least have a fighting chance.
However they could also go about this the wrong way and try to kill any other race or enslave them in order to becopme themselfs more powerfull and achieve some sort of security for themselfs. It is a double edged sword and the decisions they make will have consequences.
However if history is of any use most contacts with other species as far as the GTVA goes has resulted in war at one point or another. One of the ways to ensure a war does not start is to become powerfull enough so that other will have to think twice before declaring war. This buis time and in time you can reach diplomatic agreements political breackthroughs can be made etc.
If I have to bet i'd say the GTVA will encounter other civ out there but some sort of fighting will also take place. On what scale that will be detemined on who makes the decisions and what decisions they make. But if its GTVA command then an all out war is asured .
They might as well leave it to man who cleanes toilets to make these kind of decisions since to me it seems he could do a much better job.
also what are the chances the GTVA will encounter some sort of distant relatyve of the ancients or even ancients on some isolated backwater planet?
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Exterminating a civilization is nigh impossible, unless you render a whole planet completely uninhabitable.
The ancients CONQUERED, they used planets for their resources (unlike Shivans) so I doubt very much tehy completely exterminated anyone.
The monolouges? That "mea culpa" wailing? Probably overblownin it's scope and using too big a words..
you mean
...and we discovered other intelligent life - and we subdued it, or we crushed it.
FYI, "subdued" is fancy for saying "enslaved" furthermore, "crushed" obviously means "destroyed".
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If I have to bet i'd say the GTVA will encounter other civ out there but some sort of fighting will also take place. On what scale that will be detemined on who makes the decisions and what decisions they make. But if its GTVA command then an all out war is asured .
:lol:
I'll say.
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...and we discovered other intelligent life - and we subdued it, or we crushed it.
FYI, "subdued" is fancy for saying "enslaved" furthermore, "crushed" obviously means "destroyed".
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"destroyed" is not the same as "exterminated".. destroyed their fleets, their capitols, chrushed their resistance....
After all, you would agree with me that Germany was chrushed in WW2? As was Japan? Both countries are still here however (and their people moreso)
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I believe that there are other races out there, possibly with subspace capabilities. I doubt that the Shivans will anhillate a civillsation at the first hint of subspace travel. I think, they'd move to eradicate only if they started expanding rapidly, and moving closer to still-growing civilisations. This assumes their role as the 'Great Protector' to be true, though.
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'Subdued' from the monologue could also mean 'subjugated', similar to the Roman Empire, who would allow a state to continue to govern itself at a social level, but was not allowed to create an army outside of Roman control, and had to pay a tithe each year.
Crushed could mean destroyed, or could simply mean 'broke their will and enslaved'. Any race that can move around via subspace is going to be extremely hard to extinguish. The only way to be certain would be to destroy the star of every habitable planet you come across.....
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DEstroy a star would be hard to do even for the shivans! I mean destroy every star that is!
Besides such destruction on they part would be somewhat counterproductive since you would loose subspace nodes lots of them ! Also the shivans while bent on destruction to look more like they are trynng to teach a lesson to any warmongering species out there each time they send they fleets intead of them beeing bent on taking out every race with subspace tech.
One other thing that has come to mi mind is that somehow maibe the shivans are actualy tring to push civ. out there to become better more advanced to learn from its mistakes to leaern and coexist with they neighbours form aliances in order to become stronger. Look at the GTVA for example .
If the shivans would not have intervened there would be no GTVA! Also no beam cannons at least not so soon.
This is also one of the reasons why i believe that blowing up capella was one of they methods to seal off the GTVA for a while ! Perhaps some other race exist out there powerfull enough to go head to head with the shivans. Who knows what techs the GTVA will develop in order to counter the shivans which could come in handy against other foes.
What is for sure is that each time the shivans step in and do not destroy a civ. like they did with the ancients that specific civ. manages to become stronger and more advanced in a very short time period much shorter then normal.
Also does anyone else believe that the GTVA will somehow manage to outgrow itself I mean absorb into its body other races form new aliances ? I say it would be very probable that such a thing would happen since well to me it seemed like the GTVA will try form new aliances rather then start a war to enslave other races. Hell it would be a lot more cheap and a much better solution and this way they will probably not attract the shivans.
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Except there probably won't be any other races. The Shivans had probably already gotten to them. Maybe the reason why the Shivans sealed off the Capella Star is because there was another faction similar to the GTVA from the other Knosso portals. So the Shivans decided to destroy the jump nodes leading to the other factions. Gah, FS2 has left us with so many unanswered questions.
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About other civ. keeping a low profile is not such a valid arguement or even something that might be a plausible rule. This is largely due to the example of the GTVA ! I mean they got trashed man during the first great war. An I do mean trashed ! We have to agree that what was left of the terrans and vasudans was a mere shadow of they former potential and in a way power. Just imagine if they somehow managed to learn from the war and form the GTVA but without loosing they homeworlds they source of power.
We're talking about species staying on their home planets, or being extremely limited in space travel (colonizing that planet's moons). The GTVA, while still battered badly after the Great War, held onto its systems and even expanded to include more of the outer systems (Capella, Adhara, systems beyond Ross 128). The GTVA weren't keeping a low profile, despite forming the alliance between Terrans and Vasudans.
Of course, the Shivans have been known to go after races even after they've attempted to keep a low profile. When the Ancients gave up their empire and went home, the Shivans still followed and exterminated them.
One other thing that has come to mi mind is that somehow maibe the shivans are actualy tring to push civ. out there to become better more advanced to learn from its mistakes to leaern and coexist with they neighbours form aliances in order to become stronger. Look at the GTVA for example .
The GTVA was a result of the Great War. The Shivans are much more like galactic punitive measure than a galactic super nanny with beam cannons that tells its children to behave and play nicely together. The Shivans wiped out the Ancients homeworld, destroyed Vasuda Prime and killed billions in the process, and aimed at destroying Earth before the two races stopped them. The Shivans seem to operate by a "live by the sword, die by the sword" policy; kill, and you'll be killed.
Curiously, on the same note, the Shivans don't seem to aim at actually totally wiping out species. The Ancients said that after the destruction of their homeworld, "they are few of us left." The Shivans seemed to limit their attacks almost exclusively to homeworlds, where they could do severe damage to morale and a civilization's spirits.
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Curiously, on the same note, the Shivans don't seem to aim at actually totally wiping out species. The Ancients said that after the destruction of their homeworld, "they are few of us left." The Shivans seemed to limit their attacks almost exclusively to homeworlds, where they could do severe damage to morale and a civilization's spirits.
Hmmmmm. Depends on how you read it actually.
There are few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it.
There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements, if ever they are seen again, will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.
We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we travelled subspace, the Cosmic Destroyers took note. When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom.
And so the destroyers came for us.
Doesn't sound like they thought the Shivans were going to let them be after taking out their homeworld to me.
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On the same note they could just refer to the fact that they were so badly damaged by the shivans that the few of them that were left woul never be able to form ani sort of meaningfull cohesive structure ! The survivors could of been spread so thin across the whole ancient empire that it would be imposible for them to really be called a civilization again but rather survivors of an ancient species or remnants. Rememeber from the ancients mobologues there is a phrase in one of them which to me suggest that theyr empire was as big as this galaxi and posibly even bigger. Now if you have a few sistems spread across the galaxy and with the ancients beeing so badly damaged it would likeli take them centuries to recover and heal they would so that would start again to develop then you could say they no longer exist as a civ. ! That is if they were not absorbed by the local inhabitants .
Also during the second great war while the shivans were as deadly as ever they did not seem to have the same determination in engaging the GTVA as they did during the first great war. But rather resisted the GTVA avances and attacks and in the end decided to seal themselfs off from the GTVA space.
The shivans must of realised that if they decided to retreat from the advance of the GTVA then the GTVA in a relatively short amount of time would beome too powerfull for even the shivans . Or beeing left alone to wonder the galaxi and explore they would eventualy come across something equaly powerfull to the shivans but this time bent on conquest and so the GTVA will most surely find its end .
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Also during the second great war while the shivans were as deadly as ever they did not seem to have the same determination in engaging the GTVA as they did during the first great war. But rather resisted the GTVA avances and attacks and in the end decided to seal themselfs off from the GTVA space.
How did they seal themselves from GTVA space? They nuked the frikken star, not the nodes. The Neried and Bastion took care of the nodes.
The shivans must of realised that if they decided to retreat from the advance of the GTVA then the GTVA in a relatively short amount of time would beome too powerfull for even the shivans .
How so? The Shivans have 80 JUGGERNAUTS. The GTVA created 1 juggernaut in 20 years. If the Shivans were really so scared the GTVA would become so powerful later on, they should have just killed them while they're down. Send in their 80 juggernauts and have the fleet split up into different smaller fleets, annihilating all GTVA systems. Sure, they'd loose one or two jugs, but if they're so scared the GTVA would become more powerful than themselves, surely annihilating them while they're still weak is the way to go? Not running away and waiting for the GTVA to build up their strength?
Or beeing left alone to wonder the galaxi and explore they would eventualy come across something equaly powerfull to the shivans but this time bent on conquest and so the GTVA will most surely find its end .
If the Shivans are the 'Great Preservers' of the universe, wouldn't they come to the aid of the GTVA and nuke this other race that is equally powerful of the Shivans? Bang? Boom? Bang? Explosion? Explosion?
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WEll, there's no way Shivna can know the full size and power of the GTVA... they might think the GTVA has more collies lying around. Let's not forget that hte Collie was also the first jug - and prototpyes take twice as long to build than the next ships of the class.
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Personally, I think the Ancients are well and truly dead, every last one of 'em.
Some people have stated that they might have run away, only a tiny fraction of their old population... but if that was the case, wouldn't they have risen to power again in the intervening 8,000 years? I find it hard to believe that such an advanced race would be kept down to refugee status for that long.
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Personally, I think the Ancients are well and truly dead, every last one of 'em.
Some people have stated that they might have run away, only a tiny fraction of their old population... but if that was the case, wouldn't they have risen to power again in the intervening 8,000 years? I find it hard to believe that such an advanced race would be kept down to refugee status for that long.
I agree with DH.
WEll, there's no way Shivna can know the full size and power of the GTVA... they might think the GTVA has more collies lying around. Let's not forget that hte Collie was also the first jug - and prototpyes take twice as long to build than the next ships of the class.
Yes, but you still can't make 80 of them to fight the superior Saths anyway, can you?
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Actualy let us not forget that whyle it was not designed to take on a ship of equal power or size to its own or greather the Collie did very well. I mean sure it took damage from blown reactors but it managed to take out the sath before the sath got into weapons range ! Sure by that time the sath did not have any forward beams of its own but it doesnt really matter.
Also let us not forget that the shivans while having some 80 jugs out there had little in the way of destroyers or other smaller cap ships. Only a hand full or so !
On the same note the shivans are not stupid they probably realised that the GTVA will atempt to take on the sath's bread side where they are relatively imune to beam fire.
On a second note if the shivans have some other race out thre equaly as powerfull as them tryng to take them out would be very very dangerous ondeed.
Also since when do jump nodes reamain intact after the star is blown away?? Don't you need a trat or something like that to have jump nodes? That is what i believed.
And refering to the GTVA becoming as powerfull as t5he shivans were not talking a few years here we are talking decades perhaps even a century. Remember the shivans dont do thing with short term in mind. I mean it must of taken them centuries to crush the ancients empire.
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Also let us not forget that the shivans while having some 80 jugs out there had little in the way of destroyers or other smaller cap ships. Only a hand full or so !
:wtf:
Where'd you get that idea? Yes, we did not see that many Ravanas or Demons, but who says that they didn't have them. They could be engaging elsewhere, remember that Alpha 1 can't be everywhere at once.
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If they did have other destroyers out there engaging the GTVA then they would tell that to the player or it would at least be mentioned in some briefing or footnote on a debriefing.
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If they did have other destroyers out there engaging the GTVA then they would tell that to the player or it would at least be mentioned in some briefing or footnote on a debriefing.
I think they'd focus on the 80+ Sathanes going for the Capella rather than "hey, another destroyer." Plus, noting that the GTVA has sustained 100,000+ casualties without the juggernauts actually opening fire on any ship implies that there's a lot more Shivans than you see.
The shivans must of realised that if they decided to retreat from the advance of the GTVA then the GTVA in a relatively short amount of time would beome too powerfull for even the shivans . Or beeing left alone to wonder the galaxi and explore they would eventualy come across something equaly powerfull to the shivans but this time bent on conquest and so the GTVA will most surely find its end .
The Shivans, in the history of Freespace, have never retreated. The reason for the Capella supernova that most people can derive from the FS2 storyline was Admiral Bosch's communication with the Shivans pleading with them to not destroy the GTVA. If the Shivans had not been interrupted, then I'm certain the Shivans would've gladly run through the GTVA and completely wiped it out.
Even if the Shivans even considered that the GTVA had 80 Colossus warships to counter the juggernauts, how would that phase them? One Sathanas destroyed one Colossus in a matter of seconds, while one Colossus destroyed one Sathanas in much more time, and after nearly melting down its weapons. Do the Shivans have anything to be afraid of?
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Besides that is probably not the Bulk of the Shivan Armada.There Could be Millions of other Shivan capital ships else were.
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Let's not forget that hte Collie was also the first jug - and prototpyes take twice as long to build than the next ships of the class.
Just a real world example: Unfortunately I couldn't find any details on the development of the Nimitz class carrier, but a modern day Nimitz takes about 2 years to build. As a comparison, the new Ford class carrier began development in 2001, however the first ship of the line will not be launched until 2015 (and it's only a modification of the Nimitz Class.) Any prototype takes a very long time to develop and build. Once that is all done, further models can be quickly completed.
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Interesting, however, that the Ancients mention other Galaxies, not just other stars, that's probably just a blip, but still....
As I said before, I don't think it would be possible to wipe out all other civilisations using the Jump-Node system, it's seemingly random (especially if some do come out in other galaxies). Even if you were able to sense where the nodes went, no matter how numerous the Shivan's were, how many uninhabited systems would they have to visit just to find the inhabited one. For all we know, the Subspace Network could cover Millions or even Billions of Stars. The Shivans may be powerful, but I doubt even they have the power to achieve that.
Even the Ancients from the Monologue were only stating from their own point of view, they believed they were the last of their race, but by that stage of fracturing of the Ancients' Empire, how could they be sure, there may have been other pockets of Ancients, too afraid to try and communicate because the Destroyers may hear them, it's far from beyind the realms of possibility.
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Actualy let us not forget that whyle it was not designed to take on a ship of equal power or size to its own or greather the Collie did very well. I mean sure it took damage from blown reactors but it managed to take out the sath before the sath got into weapons range ! Sure by that time the sath did not have any forward beams of its own but it doesnt really matter.
"Doesn't really matter that it had no forward beams." Har har har, very funny. If the Sath had all four of its beams at that point, it would have shredded the Collie within a few volleys. The only reason the Collie won that fight is that the Sathanas was effectively disarmed.
Also let us not forget that the shivans while having some 80 jugs out there had little in the way of destroyers or other smaller cap ships. Only a hand full or so!
I believe that one briefing says the Shivans are "pouring into Gamma Draconis", and that was after the Sath Fleet arrived in Capella. Even if each Sath had like two destroyers as escort or part of its own mini-fleet, that'd be well over a hundred destroyers, plus a much greater number of corvettes and cruisers.
Also since when do jump nodes reamain intact after the star is blown away?? Don't you need a trat or something like that to have jump nodes? That is what i believed.
Subspace nodes require a gravity well to be present, but other than that they have no physical presence in normal space. I do not, therefore, find it all too unlikely that a node would survive a supernova (whether a neutron star has enough of a gravity well to sustain a jump node is another matter entirely).
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I think you are right about the ancients. Also if Bosch somehow managed to talk to the shivans ( and that is a big if , altough not imposible) what makes you think that they would listen to him? I mean come on.....!(on the same note better with him the with GTVA command)
Also Let us asume that the shivans believed the GTVA to be acting in a similar manner to them first try the small guns if that doesnt matter send in a bigger gun when that fails send its improved brothers so to speak. I mean that is what the shivans basicly did. first corvettes and then destroyers like the ravana then the Sath. For all we know the shivans might of believed that"hey if these guis have stepped up to plate so far after we destroy this bucket of bolts what will they send at us??"
I mean come on not even the shivans are that idiots...sure they dont back away from a fight..that we know of which is very little but if they have suficient reason to believe that the GTVA will cause them severe damage if not even defeat theyr armada of juggs then they would try to seal off the GTVA or make a show of force that will ensure them some peace so to speak. Altough peace is probably not the best word to use.
Also if the shivans had millions of ships out there then believe me they would of surely sent them instead of losing severeal sath one to the GTVA and several to the nova.
I think you give the shivans too much power. Sure they are far far more powerfull then the GTVA and it will likeli take the GTVA at least another century or even more to become ani significant threat for them but the shivans are not all mighty and are not invincible.
They may have a few more juggs out there perhaps even some more bigger ships more powerfull even 100 or 200 destroyers but still even that is a force which the GTVA given enough time will be able to stand its grounds against.
Also I believe that the shivans became aware that the GTVA is more then happy to learn from them take any tech available improve it and turn it agains them. Now imagine if the GTVA somehow managed to improve theyr beam cannons in 10 or 20 years time make them even half as powerfull as the shivans ones. now that is a very horyfic thought indeed. Because we can be pretty sure that they noticed that GTVA beam cannons were crap compared to theirs. Yet the GTVA still managed to score numeropus hits on shivan warships. Do not underestimate the GTVA's abilaty to addapt and evolve study and learn. I'm pretty sure they got somewhat of a shock when they saw theyr ships get blown away by GTVA beam fire. Well mostly asisted by bommbers but still. That is something i'm very sure they did not expect. And then use theyr own maras against them? and guess what they weer even better then theyr own. Now those fighters were improved under time of war with limited knoledge of them Imagine if they had the time to properly study them and improve them?
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The Shivans wouldn't use all of there ships becasue there to far away.Also they might be attacking hundreds of other races.
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Hundredds of other races?? Now that is something i find rather hard to believe ! I mean sure a doze or 2 of other races out there but still hundreds??
I mean the Ancients from we know pretty much ruled the galaxy or the majoraty of it. And most of that empire was carved through war. I mean they destroyed other smaller races whych when you are dealing with a few sistems even a few dozens is posible and the others they just enslaved. Now If the shivans were truely engaging other species then they would all have to be warmongering fools. Now this I find rather hard to believe. Also most other species did not have the advantage of studiynd shivana tech like the GTVA. This is just an asumption .
Also if the shivans were actualy engaging other species out there then theyr suden withdrawl from GTVA space could only mean those ships were neded some place else which to me would only sugest they considered the posibilaty that the GTVA migh inflict severe damage to them severe enough for they war plans in other places.
Also that would also mean that someplace else the shivans were beeing beaten back if they had to withdraw they armada.
Look i'm not disputing the fact that the shivans have a fleet far bigger then the GTVA huge in fact compared to that of the GTVa and in many respects more tech. advanced then that of the GTVA however what i'm disputing is the shivans tromendous power so huge that none may even think to chalenge them.
You do not build a fleet this big 80+ Stah just out of fun . You build it because you need it . Also while the shivans may have a vast empire s to speack from whioch to dram resources nuilding such a masive fleet would take a tall on they resources as well. I do not care what you say ships need to be repaired resuplyed with amunition fighters spare pilots spare fighters etc. Add those 80+ juggs with one or 2 hundred destroyers add to that a few more hundreds of corvets and close to 100 if not more cruisers and you have yourself one huge material and money (if they use money) hungry war machine which can only be sustained by exploting the resources of a vas empire and i do mean huge empire. Why do i say huge because even I know that those 80 juggs were not the only ones but did represent a significent force from they core armada . Hell thoy could have 2 times more of them and thice as many destroyers and corvettes and cruisers but still they would be spread acros at least one galaxy . So that about thins them up a bit .
Also did anybody even consider the fact that the shivans could acualy be taking a beating in some other region of the galaxy or pehaps they home galaxy ? I got the imresion that the ancients discovered the shivans or rather the shivans came upon the ancients either from some corner of the galaxy, (highly unlikely since they would not have the time or the resources to build such a vas armada in such a short amount of time and those that argue against this i must remind them that the shivans pretty much remained stagenent durynt the 8000 years or so since they crushed the ancients) or a nother galaxi altoghether.
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I think that many people would agree that the Shivans are at the very least the most powerful force that exists within the galaxy the GTVA inhabits. Their technology enables a complete mastery of subspace, and the ability to project overwhelming force to any point of conflict. Now, that being said, we may know a great deal about Shivan technology, but very little of their actual motives. If the Shivans simply wiped out races for using subspace in the first place, the GTA and PVN would have been exterminated soon after they discovered the technology. The empire of the ancients existed for at the very least a few centuries before being wiped out due to some perceived great sin on their part.
Now, we can surmise then that the Shivans do not eliminate races simply for using subspace as a means of travel. And for those arguing that its the sheer volume of subspace activity that is involved in war time, I might point out that the Terran Vasudan war is known to have dragged on for many years with neither side gaining much in the way of territory. Its more likely battles dragged on in one system for weeks or perhaps months. While reinforcements were surely sent in by both sides, I imagine these forces were slow to arrive, accounting for the stalemate.
Increased subspace travel would also be much more common in peacetime, or at the very least far above normal. Why you might ask? Simple, colonization. With no wars to fight, industry turns toward expansion. Explorers set out to chart new worlds and nodes, and suitable systems are often seen as the land of milk and honey by colonists who may be leaving behind rather dismal conditions in the more largely populated systems. With no enemy to worry about, explorer vessels can load up on supplies and head out as far as they can travel before returning home. In their wake come colonist, entrepreneurs, and corporations, all looking to gain something out of these new discoveries. The flood of ships would be much more numerous in such a case.
Case in point: the end of the Great War meant a time of rebuilding for both species. Industry and manpower were probably moved around a lot during the Reconstruction, meaning travel probably increased from wartime. A good example would be Capella, which somehow managed to build up at least 250 million colonists in 32 years or less depending on when it was colonized. That's a huge population boom for one system, so immigrants had to be arriving on a regular basis with the population of the other colonies was still increasing.
I believe we can conclude then that it is not an increase in subspace activity that draws the Shivans. If it were, the GTVA would never have been formed because both species would have been wiped out in their infancy.
Any species that discovers subspace technology and moves out into the galaxy is not then automatically marked for the destruction. Therefore it is quite possible there are other space faring races in our galaxy, though where they are is anyone’s guess.
It would be interesting to see a campaign dealing with two new races facing the same problem the GTA and PVN were during the T/V war.
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I do not believe that the Shivans are the single most powerful force in the FS universe. I believe they are the most powerful yet encountered. I also agree that they are race like any other (albeit more technologically advanced than most... and apparently stagnant in technology)... not some mystical force born to protect the galactic superstructure. They may very well be trying to protect subspace, I don't know. Nobody knows (except perhaps :v:), and that's what this all boils down to. We all have our own ideas about the Shivans... but none can ever be proven one way or another.
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I do not believe that the Shivans are the single most powerful force in the FS universe. I believe they are the most powerful yet encountered. I also agree that they are race like any other (albeit more technologically advanced than most... and apparently stagnant in technology)... not some mystical force born to protect the galactic superstructure. They may very well be trying to protect subspace, I don't know. Nobody knows (except perhaps :v:), and that's what this all boils down to. We all have our own ideas about the Shivans... but none can ever be proven one way or another.
Well said...
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I do not believe that the Shivans are the single most powerful force in the FS universe. I believe they are the most powerful yet encountered. I also agree that they are race like any other (albeit more technologically advanced than most... and apparently stagnant in technology)... not some mystical force born to protect the galactic superstructure. They may very well be trying to protect subspace, I don't know. Nobody knows (except perhaps :v:), and that's what this all boils down to. We all have our own ideas about the Shivans... but none can ever be proven one way or another.
Well said...
Agreed. After all, there is the mysterious bigger problem.
The Shivans may think we are the descendants of that mysterious bigger problem?
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Yay, he's not talking in the third person!
This is a cool discussion, I like it. :cool:
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If we were actualy part of the bigger problem then rest asured the shivans would not care even if they lost they entire sath fleet to the GTVA (asuming that such a thing would of been posible) They would kept pooring in every available ship they had in order to crush the GTVA)
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We are not a part... but they think we are.. and that's why...
Great, we might have a possible solution here.
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If we were actualy part of the bigger problem then rest asured the shivans would not care even if they lost they entire sath fleet to the GTVA (asuming that such a thing would of been posible) They would kept pooring in every available ship they had in order to crush the GTVA)
No, AlphaOne, the SHIVANS are part of the bigger problem, not the GTVA.
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As Admiral Bosch suggested ,
"What if there had been countless civilisations....stretching back into infinity.....and like the Nine cities of Troy, each was built on the ruins of the last. Each....annihilated by the shivans."
I think Occums Razor applies here. The most basic and logical answer is that shivans find any other race that can use subspace as a threat.
And to explain them destroying the Capella star, i believe they need nebulae to survive. It explains why the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis was so densely populated by them, although no worlds or installations were discovered. It is quite possible that they are a nomadic species, constantly travelling throughout the galaxy to destroy races that discover the use of subspace.
My theory anyway.
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Hmm.... I don't think they need nebula to survive, but I believe it's important for them. Remember, the first Sath showed up to nuke the player's group after they attacked a mining operation in the nebula.
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Well, we seen no shivan planets and those ships must come from somewhere....
Shivans might be nomadic, but if tehy don't conquer planets, where do they get resources for ships?
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Ehm.. they became nomadic after they build those ships?
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Yay, he's not talking in the third person!
It is stalking me!!! :shaking:
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Ehm.. they became nomadic after they build those ships?
That would mean that they can't replace their losses..in which case the GTVA could win by a simple war of attrition (over time)
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Had a war, built thousands of jaggernauts, got blown up, then became nomadic?
By the way, I don't think a war of attrition would be a possibility if you can have ... say 5 jaggernauts per GTVA controlled system.
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Well, you have to control the bottlenecks (nodes). Immageine if half the GTVA fleet would blockade Capella from the capella side.
Only so many ships can jump in at once and ther'es also the issue of clearing the node....even if a Sath were to jump in, 20+ destroyers all opening fire at once...PWNAGE :drevil:
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I dunno, that Sathanas can probably jump in and rape at least one ship before its destruction. Not to mention that the Shivans probably have huge amounts of other smaller ships that are probably destroying the rest of GTVA space.
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Well, you have to control the bottlenecks (nodes). Immageine if half the GTVA fleet would blockade Capella from the capella side.
Only so many ships can jump in at once and ther'es also the issue of clearing the node....even if a Sath were to jump in, 20+ destroyers all opening fire at once...PWNAGE :drevil:
Well Command is a Dumbass so he didn't think of that. :lol: :P
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I dunno, that Sathanas can probably jump in and rape at least one ship before its destruction. Not to mention that the Shivans probably have huge amounts of other smaller ships that are probably destroying the rest of GTVA space.
Hm...maby..Sath, being a big ship, crosses a lot of distance before stoping (when jumping in)..so he would esentially zip past the blockading ships leaving his rear exposed for some ...raping :lol:
Assuming he still manages to take out a destroyer, that would still be very costly for the shivans..1 Jug lost for every GTVA destroyer!
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I dunno, that Sathanas can probably jump in and rape at least one ship before its destruction. Not to mention that the Shivans probably have huge amounts of other smaller ships that are probably destroying the rest of GTVA space.
Hm...maby..Sath, being a big ship, crosses a lot of distance before stoping (when jumping in)..so he would esentially zip past the blockading ships leaving his rear exposed for some ...raping :lol:
Assuming he still manages to take out a destroyer, that would still be very costly for the shivans..1 Jug lost for every GTVA destroyer!
I doubt the GTVA even have a 1:1 ratio of destroyers to Sathanas. What they should do is, like on JAD where they blocked the area where a ship would usually jump in with a destroyer and cause them to blow themselves up. But then theres the problem of the ship jumping out from the other side of the jump nod so we'll just place another destroyer there. Ahh, I love JAD, I want JAD4 NOW!
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If that were the case then the GTVA would run out of destroyers before the shivans run out of juggs.
Also there is a little matter of the smaller warships like the ravana.
Also why waste a full destroyer on it when you can have a couple of RBC's to do the same job faster and safer. Of course you can not replace all the destroyers but at least it would some of them to engage other shivan warships. And in an emergency they can jump in and take part in the battle.
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Eh?
If there is only one way for shivans to enter the system, and that node is blockaded by a dozen destroyers and a score of corvettes and cruisers than it stands to reason that if a Sath can'tget in, neither can a ravana...or anything smaller for that matter.
Also, it is questionable if a Sath would manage to destroy even one destroyer before getting blown to bits... (well ,if we count in "Death beams" - aka shooting when still dead - then it's far more possible, but then again that's a FREDing fluke not a FS universe mechanic)
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Also there is a little matter of the smaller warships like the ravana.
Why do you think this? :rolleyes:
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Well since a ravana seemed to have smashed more then a couple of ships before it was eventualy destroyed. It is a good ofensive destroyer it is the sort of design which would be very well suited for the GTVA ! However it should not be the part of the bulk of the fleet since such a design would only hinder the GTVA in the long run since it is even more vulnerable to fighter/bommber attacks then the Orion.
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That doesn't answer my question...
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Well, we seen no shivan planets and those ships must come from somewhere....
Shivans might be nomadic, but if tehy don't conquer planets, where do they get resources for ships?
Resources could easily come from asteroids, the asteroid belt in our solar system is chock full of resources you could thrive on for a long time.
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There is a possibility that the Shivan vessels are organic, you know. Their interior, although we don't have a really good look at it, makes the ship seem grown rather than built. Also they way the Saths curved their beam arms before jumping is impossible for a normal ship to achieve. It means either the Shivans have radically different construction materials, or their ships are organic.
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I'l go for some sorth of techno-organic materials. As for the smaller ships getting through...well...if it jumped just a second or so afther the sath then in theory it should be able to fire at least one salvo before it is taken out.
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Aren't we a bit off-topic now?
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Hmm, I just came up with a radical idea of what the Shivans really are. Maybe the Shivan ships are actually another species and that the Shivans we see inside of them are another species and together, the two species share a symbiotic relationship.
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I believe the thread has been hijacked to: Origins of Shivans and their ships.
Hmm, I just came up with a radical idea of what the Shivans really are. Maybe the Shivan ships are actually another species and that the Shivans we see inside of them are another species and together, the two species share a symbiotic relationship.
Really radical. But not unthinkable ... although I'd seriously doubt it, seeing as how they have quite a fair number of different bombers and fighters.
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I'd like to think of it more as like the fighters are like extensions of the shivans' bodies, meaning they are connected to their fighters. According to the tech room the shivans are very cybernetically enhanced, and i can't picture a shivan manipulating controls with such bulbous hands.
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Most likely a neural interface connection, so the fighter moves in tune with their thoughts as well as with controls. And the controls would probably be radically different from your regular run of the mill joysticks.
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yeah :nod:
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So the reason Shivans kick GTVA ass is cause they literaly use their minds to fight. Awesum.
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and because command has no mind to begin with.
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Point.
Any other races you'd think the GTVA might meet? Hows bout teh ancients? mebbe they weren't totally destroyed, mebbe there are still survivors out there.
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Personally, I think the Ancients are well and truly dead, every last one of 'em.
Some people have stated that they might have run away, only a tiny fraction of their old population... but if that was the case, wouldn't they have risen to power again in the intervening 8,000 years? I find it hard to believe that such an advanced race would be kept down to refugee status for that long.
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I'm just going to point out that you need a fair number of survivors all in one place to have a viable gene pool for the continuation of a species. I'm not averse to the notion of a few getting away from the shivans' wrath, but the surviving ancients, and their freakishly inbred spawn have had a few millenia to die off. Frankly, the universe and the game series are probably better off for it, as you probably don't want to hear a round of ancients monologues that culminate in the vile, defective, final offspring of the race choking to death on its own spittle because it lacks the mental faculties to swallow.
Let dead races lie.
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I'm just going to point out that you need a fair number of survivors all in one place to have a viable gene pool for the continuation of a species. I'm not averse to the notion of a few getting away from the shivans' wrath, but the surviving ancients, and their freakishly inbred spawn have had a few millenia to die off. Frankly, the universe and the game series are probably better off for it, as you probably don't want to hear a round of ancients monologues that culminate in the vile, defective, final offspring of the race choking to death on its own spittle because it lacks the mental faculties to swallow.
Let dead races lie.
Yeah, I think the minimum number of people needed to repopulate a species is somewhere in the tens of thousands...
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Shivans do not use their minds to control fighters since GTVA has taken posesion of a few of them and adapted them for terran usage. That would be rather hard to do if it required your breain to be conected to its controls.
Also from the FS bible i believe it is said that the shivans seemd to be fused with their insectoid like shell and that they are a combination of flesh and tech. So no simbiotic relationship here as far as i can see.
Also It is very posible that more then a few thousands ancients escaped the shivans wrath. Perhaps something in the milions but scattered across god knows how many sistems it would very dificult for them to for a coherant society again. Also if they did that they would probably take care as not to atract any unwanted atention.
Also the ancients might of left the seeds for other new civ. to folow them. Which would thrive and advance.
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I'm just going to point out that you need a fair number of survivors all in one place to have a viable gene pool for the continuation of a species. I'm not averse to the notion of a few getting away from the shivans' wrath, but the surviving ancients, and their freakishly inbred spawn have had a few millenia to die off. Frankly, the universe and the game series are probably better off for it, as you probably don't want to hear a round of ancients monologues that culminate in the vile, defective, final offspring of the race choking to death on its own spittle because it lacks the mental faculties to swallow.
Let dead races lie.
That much is true, but we are talking about a race that was capable of conquering more systems than the GTVA have discovered. 10,000 people is only a couple of Destroyers' worth, after all, you could probably fit that onto a single transport in evac conditions.
Considering you could fit around 3 Billion people onto the surface of the Isle of Wight, it's not really that vast a number to be beyond possibility. As for rising again, not neccesarily, take a look at the Native Americans, they changed from voracious hunter-gatherers into a society with incredibly deep respect for the environment, that change in mindset was bought about by an ecological disaster, which was itself bought about by a new kind of spearhead. Traumatic events can change a society at a level in that respect, and simply because the Ancients may have survived biologically, there's no reason they had to survive technologically. This is, of course, assuming that the Ancients required a gene pool similar to humans, some Earth animals can rebuild as a perfectly strong species on far less.
Now, I'll admit, the chances are high that the Ancients are extinct, but even if they did survive, there's a distict possiblity even they wouldn't know they were the ancients.
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They most certainly wouldn't know who they are. Even if they documented the stuff of who they are. Thousands of years later it would be considered legend/myth. Though if the ancients actually make their way back to their old stomping grounds they'd find enough pieces of the puzzle to find out myth was reality and that they are the ancients.
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They probably have a legend about their ancestors who grew too proud and were 'struck down from above, that they may be punished for their trangressions.'
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They most certainly wouldn't know who they are. Even if they documented the stuff of who they are. Thousands of years later it would be considered legend/myth. Though if the ancients actually make their way back to their old stomping grounds they'd find enough pieces of the puzzle to find out myth was reality and that they are the ancients.
Why would you think that? Documented history is documented history - aka proof - not myths!
Or do you think a 1000 years from now people won't belive the recordings of WW2 or 9/11 and consider them myths?
And back on the blockade topic - Considering the huge ammount of ships or all kinds that could blockade a single node, not even several ships jumping in at once (let's say..5 Ravanas) could stand a chance..they would be dead before coming to a stop.
Immagine 5 of each types of destroyers - 5 Orions (35 beam total), 5 Hecates (25 beam total), 5 Hatshepsut (20 beam total), Typhon (10 beam total) - that's 90 beams just there...not counting corvettes, cruisers or RBC's
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Why would you think that? Documented history is documented history - aka proof - not myths!
Or do you think a 1000 years from now people won't belive the recordings of WW2 or 9/11 and consider them myths?
True, and they might of had time capsules like we do.
And back on the blockade topic - Considering the huge ammount of ships or all kinds that could blockade a single node, not even several ships jumping in at once (let's say..5 Ravanas) could stand a chance..they would be dead before coming to a stop.
Immagine 5 of each types of destroyers - 5 Orions (35 beam total), 5 Hecates (25 beam total), 5 Hatshepsut (20 beam total), Typhon (10 beam total) - that's 90 beams just there...not counting corvettes, cruisers or RBC's
What makes you think the ancients had beams?
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What makes you think the ancients had beams?
They didn't, :v: has confirmed that the Ancients were only slightly more technologically advanced than the T/Vs in FS1.
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exactly
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What makes you think the ancients had beams?
I'm not refering to the Ancients..I'm refering to the GTVA..
The more I think about it the harder I find it to make any plausable campaign with a shivan invasion, given how a massive node blocade is a effective stallign tactic (stalling for meson warhead to be brought inot position)
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Most of the GTVA fleet was destroyed at Capella. That many beams would severely damage a Sath, maybe even destroy it, but multiple Saths incoming would easily destroy that blockade.
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or just bring in one lucy which is invulnerable to everything :doubt:
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I don't think the Lucy is invulnerable to everything. My take on the sheath shielding system:
Well my personal theory about beams piercing 'sheath' shields is that the sheath shield is basically an extremely strong shield that regenerates extremely quickly, and only a constant barrage of fire can pierce this shield. The damage needed is probably many, many Harbinger bombs exploding on the Lucifer all at once for about a minute constantly without break. Even a pause for a second or two will allow the shield to recharge to half or even full strength. All damage must be constant, with damage being delivered every split second.
The only way this could be done in the FS universe devised is the use of beam weapons. Beam weapons deliver a whole load of damage constantly for as long as the beam is fired at the targeted ship (in this case a Lucifer class destroyer). The beam will be able to pierce the shield after only a few seconds on the shield. Because the beam is always firing upon the shield, the Lucifer does not have enough time to recharge its shield. Thus, the beam will burst through, vomiting all its plasma on the Lucifer.
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you realize that information is non-canon? (correct me if i'm wrong)
EDIT: fixed typo
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Eh? It's not canon, just my take on it. Did you make a typo?
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I'd love to see a mod where an entirely new species is introduced into the GTVA following the 2nd great war after Capella.
Then the GTVA wipes them out just to vent their stress. :lol:
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:lol: That would be cool. ;) I can see them doing that.
NewSpecies:Hello we come in peace
GTVA:Hey look a new Species.
Alpha1:Lets kill them.
NewSpecies:Uhh we don't like were this is going.
Alpha1:DIE!!!!!!!!!!
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More like:
New Species: Hello, we come in peace.
GTVA: Hey look a new Species.
COMMAND: Let's kill them.
New Species: Uhh... we don't like where this is going...
COMMAND: Alpha 1...
Alpha 1: DIE!!!!!!
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Most of the GTVA fleet was destroyed at Capella. That many beams would severely damage a Sath, maybe even destroy it, but multiple Saths incoming would easily destroy that blockade.
Was talking before Capella - what Command should have done to stall the shivans (when they still had that many ships)
And methinks 200+ beams would tear a stahanas apart
the GTVA has a minimun of 20 destroyers + a large number of corvettes and a even larger number of cruisers.
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They could send 100 bombers with Helios at them.... :D That would work but Command is a dumb****. ;)
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or they could just send ONE ship BEHIND the Sathanas and pound it from there, while destroying the engines so it can't jump out.
But ya, this is command we're talking about, and such tactics are too much for command to contemplate.
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or they could just send ONE ship BEHIND the Sathanas and pound it from there, while destroying the engines so it can't jump out.
The Sathanas has six engines, idiot.
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And they are hard as hell to kill.They take 3-4 Bgreen Beams to kill it IIRC.
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Well my as well shoot the engines rather then shoot a random place on the body that has no important systems.
Thats the second time i've been called an idiot by snail in 2 days...:lol:
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You also need to remember that it takes a while to shuffle ships around. Even if Command did want to gamble the whole of the GTVA fleet on a blockade of the Knossos jump node, those ships have to come from far and wide to get there. Moreover, there are other threats and potential threats that demand vigilance in other systems, which would preclude the GTVA from dedicating every destroyer in the galaxy to one massive blockade. Seriously, if the Alliance pulled every major warship from every system, how would they keep piracy in check or remain prepared for an emerging threat in, say, Altair (http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/SF1site)?
Just as an empire shouldn't spread its defenses too thin, it shouldn't create too dense a concentration either.
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what can be a bigger threat then the shivans?
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what can be a bigger threat then the shivans?
Chuck Norris.
j/k
The Nightmares? The Lizards? The Creators?
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you?:lol:
seriously. You can spam command to hell.
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Well, they really dont' need the WHOLE fleet....but half of it should do it..
I'm willing to bet the GTVA has hunderds of cruisers, so you can leave them for escort and patrols in other systems, while the big guns make the blockade.
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I don't think they have HUNDREDS.
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well cruisers are easy to produce, if a destroyer takes maybe a year or so to contruct, a cruiser would take a matter of months. Plenty must have been made in the reconstruction era, as well as some left over from the great war.
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what can be a bigger threat then the shivans?
The biggest threat is the one you don't have the resources to stop.
Remember, also, that GTVA space is surrounded by a vast, unknown expanse. Who's to say there aren't more shivans prowling around, looking for another hole in the defenses? In the Great War, the shivans entered terran and vasudan space via less-stable jump nodes in multiple systems, so it seems reasonable to assume that if they spot the opportunity, they would open a second front against the GTVA. (Hence, the shameless linkage in my previous post.)
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Why would you think that? Documented history is documented history - aka proof - not myths!
Or do you think a 1000 years from now people won't belive the recordings of WW2 or 9/11 and consider them myths?
Well, your comparison of humanity remembering WW2 is incorrect and different than what i was talking about first off. When time passes by on the order of thousands of years, stuff can turn to legend and myth, not always, but a good bet that something can. Usually it happens in simpler times, such as before the medieval era. One great example is adam and eve. Adam and eve is a documented historical thing in the bible for how we came to be, but it's always questioned if it's true, and there's no way to prove it either. What about the flood with noah? Or better yet, the problems god and moses gave to the egyptians. Is it a myth that that frogs and locusts swarmed egypt and then fire from the sky came?
If something from several thousand years ago was recorded on stone or something with no other proof to offer that it happened besides some writing and surviving folklore, then you'll probably have something on the order of legend/myth. What about the epic of gilgamesh? That also documented a flood and a huge boat just like the story of noah. But, is say the epic of gilgamesh and the story of noah documented history (i mean two stories from two different cultures are backing up the flood...the flood could have happened, but what about that crazy ass big boat that held all of the animals and the last humans of the time)? People today would just consider them great stories. But, back then writing was the only way to document history really in ancient times. In the meantime time if there is other proof out there that some stuff actually happened, over thousands of years cities get buried, civilizations get conquered and changed, stuff gets lost, and even the geography changes. So it's really hard to find proof sometimes if it's impossible to find it to back up the story of noah, epic of gilgamesh, and the story of moses. I mean, they're really crazy stories when you hear them, and to actually try to imagine them as being real in todays modern day thousands of years later as compared to the day thousands of years ago when this **** did happen as told by these stories.
Are they stories or were they real? Are we largely misinterpreting them for the way people understood the world back then, or are we interpreting them fine? You can only get so far with research and unburying stuff, and science makes mistakes all the time as well. So stuff will remain skeptical for many people until a similar happening of a world flood happens again to compare with, or until time travel comes about. And their you might have legend/myth.
At least with science and research proving that the flood did happen isn't so impossible, along with finding the arc (i believe that was found already). But, i mean generally, crazy **** that happens, that may be on the order of unbelievable later, but if it can be figured out, it will astound people and give new respect for older stuff out there.
The ancients on the other hand if they survived the shivan onslaught 8000 years ago in the fs universe could very easily be in the same boat. And what about those vasudan prophecies in fs1 about the shivans after the shivans came? Speaking of which prophecies are gay as hell, they're always too obscure to be prepared for them or do anything about. And if you get a prophecy that has all of the information for when, where, and what happens, then that's something different called a prediction. Man i just hate prophecies in general, they're quite retarded in nature and perhaps even more for people to get wrapped up in them too :lol:
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Well as far as I can tell both the vasudan and the terrans have some 12 fleets each. Asuming they have a minimum of 1 destroyer per fleet (mi take is that they have somewhere between 2-4 per fleet but lets asume just 1 for now) that would still be some 24 destroyers minimum in the GTVA with at least 3 times the corvettes and 6 times the cruisers. That would be 24 D, 72 Cv, and 144 Cr. Now wich ever way you look at it this is quite an impresive amount of ships. Still nowere near as much as the shivans but still quite a few. If they pulled half of them to blocade the Knossos there would have to be some sort of unbelivable miracle for the shivans to breack throush such a blocade.
However when you think these fleets were spread all over the GTVA then these figures start to be quite small.
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IIRC, the Collossus had a couple destroyers assigned to its fleet as well...
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Well that makes the Collie fleet the most powerfull of all the fleets in the GTVA and that would explain the huge amount of resources needed for it and its fleet. Since that would be a couple od destroyers even more corvettes and even more cruisers. Hell the collie fleet should of had its own dedicated inteligence SOC and resuply fleet. That would of made it resemble the panzer divisions in WW2. They were like miniature armies. That is why they were so eficient and feared.
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Big blockade? Check. Multiple shivan juggernauts? Check. Grinding FS2 to a halt? Close enough.
Command, cue dramatic music, and try not to lose.
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I dont know why they didnt use meson bombs on the Capella fleet. They certainly had enough to stuff up 2 Orions to the brim, so the must've had some to spare.
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I dont know why they didnt use meson bombs on the Capella fleet. They certainly had enough to stuff up 2 Orions to the brim, so the must've had some to spare.
They really had no method of delivering it. The best they could do is probably jam one inside an Ursa bomber and have the pilot do a kamakaze run on a Shivan ship. Even then, the Ursa can get shot down. They had no efficient means of delivering it.
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what can be a bigger threat then the shivans?
Oh... I don't know.... maybe something like say..... the Culture ;)
Course they wouldn't even consider shivans a threat.
LOL I could see Capella "guarded" by one ship.
vessel: 'Command, 80 5km long shivan vessels jumped into Capella, they weren't friendly so we destroyed them. Don't worry it only took a minute, they were sooooo slow.'
command: 'OOOOOO....KKKKKK.....'
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I dont know why they didnt use meson bombs on the Capella fleet. They certainly had enough to stuff up 2 Orions to the brim, so the must've had some to spare.
Delivery and contingency are probably the two reasons that Meson warheads weren't deployed directly against the juggernaut fleet.
Given the size of the meson bombs, it really does take a freighter or warship to haul the things around. I doubt that a fleet of eighty freighters (with necessary escort) could be considered expendable in the situation the GTVA found itself in, and cruisers, corvettes, and destroyers would certainly be an even more precious commodity.
I'd also guess that the GTVA had already ear-marked the greater majority of their meson bombs for sealing jump nodes, before the Psamtik got vaporized in the nebula. The first Sathanas was quite a surprise, and I'm betting that Command had a moment of prescience, realizing that the shivans could have even greater surprises in store. In the event of the shivans mustering something unstoppable by conventional means, Command would have wanted to seal it in the nebula or Gamma Draconis. (Prepping the Nereid and Bastion was necessary, in the event that one should be prematurely destroyed.) Because Gamma Draconis fell to the Sathanas fleet so quickly, there was no choice but to sacrifice Capella. Tangent aside, the point is, the bombs were physically there, but they were largely available for blasting juggernauts because the Alliance couldn't risk losing the ability to seal the Capella jump nodes.
Anyway, there really wasn't much of an alternative to the way the Invasion of 2367 ended. While one Sathanas has its weak points, eighty-plus Sathanases is essentially an unstoppable force, and the GTVA didn't have any immovable objects, with the sole exception of sealing jump nodes. While plenty of GTVA Command's decisions can be questioned, they can tell when things go pear-shaped. Sometimes, you've got to cut your losses, and closing up Capella was better than the possibility of having the rest of terran and vasudan space overrun by the juggernaut fleet. Bear in mind, that there was no way for anybody to know that the shivans were going to destroy Capella along with half of their own fleet. The assumption was likely that the juggernauts would quit dicking around about the star, and get on with annihilating humanity.
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There are at least one (http://www.sectorgame.com/aldo) or two (http://www.sectorgame.com/twistedinfinities/index2.php), or three (point five I guess) (http://www.game-warden.com/raa/) out there so far. Of those only the Lizard/Bektah ships are available for download though.
Wtf? in the Tosev timeline, Lizards had technology that wasnt more advanced than maybe the year 2000, except for their star ships. Its unlikely that they got new technology so quickly. They take thousands of years to invent what we can invent in a few decades. They have no evidence of fighters or bombers or capital ships in space. All their capital ships in the books were basically carriers loaded with Lancruisers (tanks), troops, and Killercrafts (Jet-Fighters). All those are atmospheric vehicles. In space, they only had the carriers which were armed with simple nukes that were designed to be launched when the craft was landed and projectile guns and they had shuttles. This is due the the fact that the Lizards were so arrogant that they were the pinnacle of technological advancement in the entire universe, that nobody else in the universe will be space-faring. Thats why they were afraid of the humans who developed ships with a full armament of nuclear weapons, railguns, and FTL drives which could strike anywhere. The Lizards took 20+ years to travel from Home to Earth. Humans could do it in 2 months, max. That mod is not true to canon. The Lizards would get slaughtered. Especially since at the end of the last book (There are more, atleast I hope so), the Lizard home planet called "Home" sent a signal to their 2 colony worlds, but since the 2 colony worlds are 10-15 light years away, the signal wont reach them and they know nothing about the human's FTL drives.
As Bean Delphiki said, its impossible to defend a 3-dimensional target the scale of a planet, and the only solution is to attack the enemy's planet and hope he doesnt have a fleet on its way to your's. Humans clearly have the advantage here, and this is basically no-contest.
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There are at least one (http://www.sectorgame.com/aldo) or two (http://www.sectorgame.com/twistedinfinities/index2.php), or three (point five I guess) (http://www.game-warden.com/raa/) out there so far. Of those only the Lizard/Bektah ships are available for download though.
Wtf? in the Tosev timeline, Lizards had technology that wasnt more advanced than maybe the year 2000, except for their star ships. Its unlikely that they got new technology so quickly. They take thousands of years to invent what we can invent in a few decades. They have no evidence of fighters or bombers or capital ships in space. All their capital ships in the books were basically carriers loaded with Lancruisers (tanks), troops, and Killercrafts (Jet-Fighters). All those are atmospheric vehicles. In space, they only had the carriers which were armed with simple nukes that were designed to be launched when the craft was landed and projectile guns and they had shuttles. This is due the the fact that the Lizards were so arrogant that they were the pinnacle of technological advancement in the entire universe, that nobody else in the universe will be space-faring. Thats why they were afraid of the humans who developed ships with a full armament of nuclear weapons, railguns, and FTL drives which could strike anywhere. The Lizards took 20+ years to travel from Home to Earth. Humans could do it in 2 months, max. That mod is not true to canon. The Lizards would get slaughtered. Especially since at the end of the last book (There are more, atleast I hope so), the Lizard home planet called "Home" sent a signal to their 2 colony worlds, but since the 2 colony worlds are 10-15 light years away, the signal wont reach them and they know nothing about the human's FTL drives.
As Bean Delphiki said, its impossible to defend a 3-dimensional target the scale of a planet, and the only solution is to attack the enemy's planet and hope he doesnt have a fleet on its way to your's. Humans clearly have the advantage here, and this is basically no-contest.
You'd have to ask Taristin to be sure, but I think that these lizards are just supposed to based loosely on those ones, not precisely the same.
Why would you think that? Documented history is documented history - aka proof - not myths!
Or do you think a 1000 years from now people won't belive the recordings of WW2 or 9/11 and consider them myths?
Well, your comparison of humanity remembering WW2 is incorrect and different than what i was talking about first off. When time passes by on the order of thousands of years, stuff can turn to legend and myth, not always, but a good bet that something can. Usually it happens in simpler times, such as before the medieval era. One great example is adam and eve. Adam and eve is a documented historical thing in the bible for how we came to be, but it's always questioned if it's true, and there's no way to prove it either. What about the flood with noah? Or better yet, the problems god and moses gave to the egyptians. Is it a myth that that frogs and locusts swarmed egypt and then fire from the sky came?
If something from several thousand years ago was recorded on stone or something with no other proof to offer that it happened besides some writing and surviving folklore, then you'll probably have something on the order of legend/myth. What about the epic of gilgamesh? That also documented a flood and a huge boat just like the story of noah. But, is say the epic of gilgamesh and the story of noah documented history (i mean two stories from two different cultures are backing up the flood...the flood could have happened, but what about that crazy ass big boat that held all of the animals and the last humans of the time)? People today would just consider them great stories. But, back then writing was the only way to document history really in ancient times. In the meantime time if there is other proof out there that some stuff actually happened, over thousands of years cities get buried, civilizations get conquered and changed, stuff gets lost, and even the geography changes. So it's really hard to find proof sometimes if it's impossible to find it to back up the story of noah, epic of gilgamesh, and the story of moses. I mean, they're really crazy stories when you hear them, and to actually try to imagine them as being real in todays modern day thousands of years later as compared to the day thousands of years ago when this **** did happen as told by these stories.
Are they stories or were they real? Are we largely misinterpreting them for the way people understood the world back then, or are we interpreting them fine? You can only get so far with research and unburying stuff, and science makes mistakes all the time as well. So stuff will remain skeptical for many people until a similar happening of a world flood happens again to compare with, or until time travel comes about. And their you might have legend/myth.
At least with science and research proving that the flood did happen isn't so impossible, along with finding the arc (i believe that was found already). But, i mean generally, crazy **** that happens, that may be on the order of unbelievable later, but if it can be figured out, it will astound people and give new respect for older stuff out there.
The ancients on the other hand if they survived the shivan onslaught 8000 years ago in the fs universe could very easily be in the same boat. And what about those vasudan prophecies in fs1 about the shivans after the shivans came? Speaking of which prophecies are gay as hell, they're always too obscure to be prepared for them or do anything about. And if you get a prophecy that has all of the information for when, where, and what happens, then that's something different called a prediction. Man i just hate prophecies in general, they're quite retarded in nature and perhaps even more for people to get wrapped up in them too :lol:
I had to read this twice to ensure you were actually saying what I think you're saying. All I'll say is that while you're relatively safe peddling all your pseudo science on page seven of some random thread in General FS, make sure you read a few proper science books or papres before you try to convince people in Hard Light that proving the flood is relatively easy, or that Adam and Eve is "documented historical fact". Both the biologist and the geologist in me want to slap some sense into you after that post.
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what can be a bigger threat then the shivans?
Oh... I don't know.... maybe something like say..... the Culture ;)
Course they wouldn't even consider shivans a threat.
LOL I could see Capella "guarded" by one ship.
vessel: 'Command, 80 5km long shivan vessels jumped into Capella, they weren't friendly so we destroyed them. Don't worry it only took a minute, they were sooooo slow.'
command: 'OOOOOO....KKKKKK.....'
I so don't ge that reference..... :confused:
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B.T.W. - any ancient that escaped would do so in a space-faring veichle...transport, freighter or warship. They have the technology to RECORD data - ship sensors, holograms, cameras and stuff like that.
So it's not like finding a ancient manuscript that tells of the flood, it's like finding a DVD with the flooding actually recorded on it.
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the power supply of that ship would obviously burn out by the time anybody got to it
Not to mention the ancient computer data on that ship wouldn't be compatible with anything the GTVA possesses...
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We're talking about the remnants of the Ancients. I suspect the technology would have largely be cannibalised if it exists, though it's not certain, but when you are a race simply trying to continue to exist, it's more important to have ploughs and houses than guns and sensors. Consider the amount of civilisations that humanity has had, and we're still learning about our own species past even though many of those civilisations were quite advanced, but what they learned got lost over the years through various wars, invasions and disasters, there's a good chance that any surviving Ancients would know they came from a bigger picture thousands of years earlier, but just how accurate that picture is it's kind of hard to say, you may well get an attitude like the Hammer of Light, who understood little more than that the 'Destroyers' existed. That's often been cited as evidence that the Vasudan culture was in some way connected to the Ancients' Empire. If the Vasudans cannot even keep hold of all the details, there's very little chance the Ancients could.
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point.
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We're talking about the remnants of the Ancients. I suspect the technology would have largely be cannibalised if it exists, though it's not certain, but when you are a race simply trying to continue to exist, it's more important to have ploughs and houses than guns and sensors. Consider the amount of civilisations that humanity has had, and we're still learning about our own species past even though many of those civilisations were quite advanced, but what they learned got lost over the years through various wars, invasions and disasters, there's a good chance that any surviving Ancients would know they came from a bigger picture thousands of years earlier, but just how accurate that picture is it's kind of hard to say, you may well get an attitude like the Hammer of Light, who understood little more than that the 'Destroyers' existed. That's often been cited as evidence that the Vasudan culture was in some way connected to the Ancients' Empire. If the Vasudans cannot even keep hold of all the details, there's very little chance the Ancients could.
Is there anything preventing the Vasudans from being a splinter group of the Ancients?
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I seem to recall that :v: stated that the Vasudans were not the remains of the Ancients, I know the subject is always avoided on here. My own personal opinion is that the Vasudans were one of the races that the Ancients interacted with or enslaved, either way, I'm almost certain there is some kind of link between the two races.
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We're talking about the remnants of the Ancients. I suspect the technology would have largely be cannibalised if it exists, though it's not certain, but when you are a race simply trying to continue to exist, it's more important to have ploughs and houses than guns and sensors. Consider the amount of civilisations that humanity has had, and we're still learning about our own species past even though many of those civilisations were quite advanced, but what they learned got lost over the years through various wars, invasions and disasters, there's a good chance that any surviving Ancients would know they came from a bigger picture thousands of years earlier, but just how accurate that picture is it's kind of hard to say, you may well get an attitude like the Hammer of Light, who understood little more than that the 'Destroyers' existed. That's often been cited as evidence that the Vasudan culture was in some way connected to the Ancients' Empire. If the Vasudans cannot even keep hold of all the details, there's very little chance the Ancients could.
Some knowledge has been lost during some darker periods of the pase...like the fall of the roman empire - alltouhg I wouldn't call them quite advanced.
There is a point in development - once mass world communications are reached - after which the loss of knowledge is negligable. There had to be millions of recodrings of events past and current ones made by the ancients. At least some ships would be canibalized in an effort to rebuild the lives of the people, but you won't erase recordings - what good would it do?
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i was led to beilieve the ancients were human :doubt:
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I hate that theory myself.
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We're talking about the remnants of the Ancients. I suspect the technology would have largely be cannibalised if it exists, though it's not certain, but when you are a race simply trying to continue to exist, it's more important to have ploughs and houses than guns and sensors. Consider the amount of civilisations that humanity has had, and we're still learning about our own species past even though many of those civilisations were quite advanced, but what they learned got lost over the years through various wars, invasions and disasters, there's a good chance that any surviving Ancients would know they came from a bigger picture thousands of years earlier, but just how accurate that picture is it's kind of hard to say, you may well get an attitude like the Hammer of Light, who understood little more than that the 'Destroyers' existed. That's often been cited as evidence that the Vasudan culture was in some way connected to the Ancients' Empire. If the Vasudans cannot even keep hold of all the details, there's very little chance the Ancients could.
Some knowledge has been lost during some darker periods of the pase...like the fall of the roman empire - alltouhg I wouldn't call them quite advanced.
There is a point in development - once mass world communications are reached - after which the loss of knowledge is negligable. There had to be millions of recodrings of events past and current ones made by the ancients. At least some ships would be canibalized in an effort to rebuild the lives of the people, but you won't erase recordings - what good would it do?
True, but the only model we have to work with is a single planet, where even if the Empire falls, ghosts are left behind, like the Roman Roads in the UK. For their time, the Romans were exceptionally advanced in Architecture, warfare and Industry.
That siuation may be very different if you've come to a planet with only a few transports of the like, which have to be dismantled to make shelter, storage etc, it's a mixture of Triage and Age, there are no great monuments like the Colluseum as a parmanent reminder of the past, nothing to mark their history other than whatever data is stored on their ships, and what they themselves remember. I doubt that the data storage system an Ancent's ship was designed to hold data infefinately without maintenance, and I expect the survivors would have been too busy and would lack the resources to copy it all down.
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How long can CD's and DVD's hold data?
And we don't even have a giant stellar empire...I bet their data storage tech is far better.
And I doubt they would let their historical data go to waste - history is important if you want to preserve knowledge and culture - especially if you're a proud race. What are you going to tech your kids?
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How long can CD's and DVD's hold data?
And we don't even have a giant stellar empire...I bet their data storage tech is far better.
And I doubt they would let their historical data go to waste - history is important if you want to preserve knowledge and culture - especially if you're a proud race. What are you going to teach your kids
Well we have Time Capsules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_capsule) to keep our history. Perhaps the ancients had some form of it as well.
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The average life of a DVD is around 5 years, but then, you also have to consider, what's the average life of a DVD player, what's the average life of a TV, what's the average life of the generator to supply the power to them? Much of their history would become like Chinese whispers, the definition changing as it passed by word of mouth from Generation to Generation.
As for what you'd teach your kids, I'd suspect the primary objectives would be things like 'How to grow and hunt food, how to build a shelter, what plants not to eat' etc.
Edit: Oh, and time capsules would mean both an pre-assumption that the race was about to be wiped out, and the fact that one would be accessible.
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The average life of a DVD is around 5 years, but then, you also have to consider, what's the average life of a DVD player, what's the average life of a TV, what's the average life of the generator to supply the power to them? Much of their history would become like Chinese whispers, the definition changing as it passed by word of mouth from Generation to Generation.
As for what you'd teach your kids, I'd suspect the primary objectives would be things like 'How to grow and hunt food, how to build a shelter, what plants not to eat' etc.
Edit: Oh, and time capsules would mean both an pre-assumption that the race was about to be wiped out, and the fact that one would be accessible.
hi,
if a manufactured CD/DVD is prefect store (right temperature, air moisture and no sun light), they can hold theoretical their data so 100 years.
but practical its imho so about 20 years, one reason is a fungus, who destroy the data layer.
a burned CD/DVD is really difficult to say, if the burner doesnt have the right strategie to burn the medium its unreadalbe after the burning or will become unreadable after a short time.
burned CD/DVD are not really reliable mediums for save backups of datas.
to the dickussion about records.
i FS had scientists find records of the ancient and bosh had find material, too.
the next thing is the knossos gates work stable since 8000 years without maintenance and still had engery, so i think the ancient technologie is really tough, if they survive so long after thiere creatures are gone.
and i believe that the records that the GTA and Bosh had find wasnt paintings on the wall.
so i guess that the GTVA can read records.
but if surviving ancient have the full knowdelage of their old empire?
mhh doesnt so easy to say.
we doesnt know how excatly they had storage thiere knowledge.
if we say, that they storage it like us today, central in great centren and libraries, then i think its the chance that the culture and the knowledge to a great part survive not so gread.
if the structure was more decentral, then the percents are higher and maybe some parts had it survive.
but i think that if there out ancicent then they not compare to the old ancicent.
i believe in that culture are many myth and saga`s are present of an old devil enemy and a great empire, that they destroyed, but not really are compare to the 8000 year old gone empire of the ancicent.
Mehrpack
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Niven has a good book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_Trees) on what happens when a fragment of an advanced civilization reverts to primitive life.
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@Mehrpack
Good point about the DVD life, I was looking at pre-burned, not manufactured DVD's, but there's still the question of having the skill and parts to repair the equipment. It would be sort of like the irony of owning 'how to fix your DVD player' on DVD.
As for the records, agreed, it also depends, largely, on what situation and state the survivors arrived in, if it was literally a last minute flee for their lives, their may have been no time to pick up anything more than bare essentials, if it was a planned evacuation, there may have been more preperation.
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@Mehrpack
Good point about the DVD life, I was looking at pre-burned, not manufactured DVD's, but there's still the question of having the skill and parts to repair the equipment. It would be sort of like the irony of owning 'how to fix your DVD player' on DVD.
As for the records, agreed, it also depends, largely, on what situation and state the survivors arrived in, if it was literally a last minute flee for their lives, their may have been no time to pick up anything more than bare essentials, if it was a planned evacuation, there may have been more preperation.
Well, according to the monolouges, the Anciets were loosing and falling back for a while, so it stands to reason that they had some evacuation/escape plans and preparations. It's not like the shivan apocalypse came all of a sudden - they had a great empire.
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Perhaps, but they were being cut down system by system, evacuations were probably planned, almost certainly, space is big with lots of places to hide, but the Shivans are pretty good at finding our ships. Basically, I suppose the whole thing rests on an unanswerable question, which is 'who survived and how'.
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Hey guys first time post long time lurker. As far as this discussion goes wouldn't it make sense that the ancients could easily date back and track their own history. Some remnants of what happened had to have survived or else we wouldnt of known how to stop the lucy. Also, since the terrans and vasudans were able to decipher the language and the story that was told in the monologues wouldnt any decendants of the ancients easily be able to do the same?
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:welcomeyellow:
You mean decipher our language?
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I had to read this twice to ensure you were actually saying what I think you're saying. All I'll say is that while you're relatively safe peddling all your pseudo science on page seven of some random thread in General FS, make sure you read a few proper science books or papres before you try to convince people in Hard Light that proving the flood is relatively easy, or that Adam and Eve is "documented historical fact". Both the biologist and the geologist in me want to slap some sense into you after that post.
The main idea of the post wasn't to convince readers that any of the examples i used were real happenings. I guess i didn't do a thorough enough job for putting that into effect? Or the geologist and biologist in you is doing a little too much reading between the words where i didn't put anything. I wasn't saying that adam and eve is documented historical records. Also the fact that i used noah and flood right after adam and eve (along with moses) with much skepticism. That should have pointed out i was making a joke with documented history thing. Me trying to offer proof and convince readers that these did happen or are true was not my objective, something entirely different it was. The main objective is, after thousands of years change and sifting through all the crap of the world, what is documented history and what is not?
This was in response to trashman who you really should slap instead of me. He just didn't take into account how different stuff gets over thousands of years. Pretty much today we are good at sifting through the crap...mostly.
Why would you think that? Documented history is documented history - aka proof - not myths!
Or do you think a 1000 years from now people won't belive the recordings of WW2 or 9/11 and consider them myths?
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With written records someone could tamper with them..yes..or misinterpret them...or when copying them change them a little to suite his POW.
But recordings? Who would ever tamper with them? If I make a copy of the 9/11 video news reports I won't change anything on it.. In thousands of years of copying do you really think hte next copy and the next and the next will be changed?
Now go slap yourself several times :drevil:
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@Mehrpack
Good point about the DVD life, I was looking at pre-burned, not manufactured DVD's, but there's still the question of having the skill and parts to repair the equipment. It would be sort of like the irony of owning 'how to fix your DVD player' on DVD.
hi,
yeah, i know, i think we have today the problem too.
i mean serval thing of our culture are for the most people doesnt present.
today the most people doesnt have a clue how some foot can be own cooking, because the most comestible and food are an industril product and the modern society go more and more to microwave food.
As for the records, agreed, it also depends, largely, on what situation and state the survivors arrived in, if it was literally a last minute flee for their lives, their may have been no time to pick up anything more than bare essentials, if it was a planned evacuation, there may have been more preperation.
yeah.
With written records someone could tamper with them..yes..or misinterpret them...or when copying them change them a little to suite his POW.
But recordings? Who would ever tamper with them? If I make a copy of the 9/11 video news reports I won't change anything on it.. In thousands of years of copying do you really think hte next copy and the next and the next will be changed?
Now go slap yourself several times :drevil:
an "digital" copy doesnt chance it, but time destroy data and people chance documents, to radicalise the past or to chance the mind of the to socitiy.
knowlegde in the hand of a few people is really mighty and its a great temptation to chance it for the own plans.
Mehrpack
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Maybe there is a subspace network in the same physical AREA of the GTVA, but that network doesnt connect to the GTVA's. ??
Like, maybe Alpha Centauri isnt in GTVA space, but it might be part of ANOTHER node network.
Eh? Nice idea for a campaign?
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I don't think the GTVA subspace networkis isolated. There are probably more nodes leading to other systems that the GTVA has yet traveled to. A campaign about the GTVA discovering a cluster of systems from a node from a rural system could work. I am most interested in a campaign where the GTVA discovers another node in the Ross128 system and then follows it to find something. Maybe one of the missions could have 2 Shivan factions duking it out and the GTVA in the middle of it.
Besides, if the GTVA subspace network is isolated from the others, how are they suppose to connect to another subspace network?
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You misunderstand me. A Subspace network that exists in the same PHYSICAL space as the GTVA, but does not connect to GTVA space. The GTVA foolishly builds a Knosson portal to a weak node, opening a portal to the new civilization!
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It IS interesting to note that we never hear of the Sathanas being encountered by the Ancients, that means one of two things...
1: The Ancients only had to deal with the Lucifer, and never encountered a Sathanas.
2: The Ancients DID encounter them, but that was classified to GTI only.
One thing makes me suspect that 2 is actually the correct option. When the GTVA went through the Knossos they appeared in a Nebula that it was heavily hinted once contained a star that the Shivans destroyed. In that system, probably out of blast range, was more than one Knossos.
So the question is, was that system a Nebula when the Knossos were built?
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IIRC, there is a nebula ~8000 years old that I heard people guessing could have been created during the Ancient-Shivan War? I don't remember which nebula, but I remember a discussion taking place about it.
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It IS interesting to note that we never hear of the Sathanas being encountered by the Ancients, that means one of two things...
1: The Ancients only had to deal with the Lucifer, and never encountered a Sathanas.
2: The Ancients DID encounter them, but that was classified to GTI only.
One thing makes me suspect that 2 is actually the correct option. When the GTVA went through the Knossos they appeared in a Nebula that it was heavily hinted once contained a star that the Shivans destroyed. In that system, probably out of blast range, was more than one Knossos.
So the question is, was that system a Nebula when the Knossos were built?
What does that have to do with ANYTHING??
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You misunderstand me. A Subspace network that exists in the same PHYSICAL space as the GTVA, but does not connect to GTVA space. The GTVA foolishly builds a Knosson portal to a weak node, opening a portal to the new civilization!
About as much as that does I guess.
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You misunderstand me. A Subspace network that exists in the same PHYSICAL space as the GTVA, but does not connect to GTVA space. The GTVA foolishly builds a Knosson portal to a weak node, opening a portal to the new civilization!
About as much as that does I guess.
Nope. I suggest that there might be sentient races in the same physical space, but yours has to do with the origin of the Lucifer. wtf? That is part of a different thread.
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Actually you started talking about something that does not exist, has no evidence of existing and isn't any the more relevant. I could turn around and say 'Hey, what if the tooth fairies turned up and magically transported us to another planet?', after all, that involves contact with another race, doesn't make it any the less without reason.
Considering the rest of the conversation was about the surviveability of alien races other than ours with the Shivans wandering around, it's interesting to question when and where the Sathanas first arrived. There is no great evidence other than conjecture as to where the Sathanas come into play, the later they appear, the greater the possibility that there are other races to encounter because their stars have not been destroyed.
That is why it is interesting to note that the Ancients' don't, to the players' knowledge, seem to have encountered them, because if they were around then, there is a much lower possibility of us encountering other life forms.
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Why dont you make that clear then?
Considering the rest of the conversation was about the surviveability of alien races other than ours with the Shivans wandering around,
Which is what I mean. There could be subspace networks that are not at all connected to GTVA networks. Even Shivans cant jump if there is NO node...
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You are asuming way too much. For such a network to exist...bleah....my head hurt too much if I try to prove you wrong. You are just wrong. Now there could be a node sistem that would be accesable from just one node or something like that which would prove to be a huge advantage if the GTVA found it but...the shivans have a nasty habbit of creating subspace nodes to diferent sistems by using even the most unstable and most short lived jump node . this is cannon. On the other hand with the GTVA having Knossos tech now they could link to that cluster of sistems through a numerous of other nodes. If none exist which is hyghl;y unlikeli then they just create one.
Wherever there are star sistems there are 99% of the times jump nodes.
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One thing makes me suspect that 2 is actually the correct option. When the GTVA went through the Knossos they appeared in a Nebula that it was heavily hinted once contained a star that the Shivans destroyed. In that system, probably out of blast range, was more than one Knossos.
So the question is, was that system a Nebula when the Knossos were built?
Impossible. A supernova would destroy EVERYTHING in system and even furtehr. If a Knossos was built before the star went nova it would have been destroyed... So obviously, it was built after that...
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You are asuming way too much. For such a network to exist...bleah....my head hurt too much if I try to prove you wrong. You are just wrong. Now there could be a node sistem that would be accesable from just one node or something like that which would prove to be a huge advantage if the GTVA found it but...the shivans have a nasty habbit of creating subspace nodes to diferent sistems by using even the most unstable and most short lived jump node . this is cannon. On the other hand with the GTVA having Knossos tech now they could link to that cluster of sistems through a numerous of other nodes. If none exist which is hyghl;y unlikeli then they just create one.
:wtf:
The shivans can use nodes too unstable for the Terrans or Vasudans but they sure as hell can't CREATE them.. :blah:
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You may be right but the question is how soon after the nova wa the Knossos built and the second one...! The one the Psamtik finds.
Nevertheless it would seem that the shivans do not have such a thing called as a homeworld at least not in our galaxi. At least that is what it seemed to me. Sure they may have bases of operations so to speak but they homw world/s could be in an entire different galaxi altoghether.
Rmember that the ancients said at some point that they empire stretched the entire galaxy and beyond ! This would sugest to me that the ancients stumbeled upon the bees nest and tried to subdue them like they usualy did. Only this time....well...the rest is history...!
Perhaps the shivans never even intented to fight the Ancients but they must of somehow been forced into this by some destruction caused by the Ancients ...perhaps of they homeworld or something like that. Then they sent in the Lucifer/s and beaten the Ancients back. Then went like...an eye for an eye. This would explain the shivans obsesion with destroing planets.
Just a theory. Perhaps they were shivans that went insane who knows...! This would explain the diferent tactics employed the second time.
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One thing makes me suspect that 2 is actually the correct option. When the GTVA went through the Knossos they appeared in a Nebula that it was heavily hinted once contained a star that the Shivans destroyed. In that system, probably out of blast range, was more than one Knossos.
So the question is, was that system a Nebula when the Knossos were built?
Impossible. A supernova would destroy EVERYTHING in system and even furtehr. If a Knossos was built before the star went nova it would have been destroyed... So obviously, it was built after that...
Unless it was far enough out of the star that it didnt get the Shockwave and instead, got the diffusing gas.
Notice the Moloch and Deimos in the end FS2 cutscene didnt get THAT damaged by the supernova? They merely got crushed? A Meson bomb would have dont the same thing. The Knossos has been proven to survive a meson bomb anyway.
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If that is the case...then a Knossos or more could of easely survive the Nova. This would mean that the shivans have a habbit of repeat performances.
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Unless it was far enough out of the star that it didnt get the Shockwave and instead, got the diffusing gas.
Notice the Moloch and Deimos in the end FS2 cutscene didnt get THAT damaged by the supernova? They merely got crushed? A Meson bomb would have dont the same thing. The Knossos has been proven to survive a meson bomb anyway.
Eh? They were vaporized...look the ani again...
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Really? I could have sworn that they were crushed...
Eh. Still. The explosion is comparable to a Meson bomb, yes? I mean, Meson bomb at point blank vs. super nova at hundreds of AUs from sun.
I mean, the last mission in FS2 was very close to the sun, considering that the shockwave reached the player in such short notice. If that was the SOL system, it would have taken 10+ minutes for the shockwave to reach Earth. Clearly, the shockwaves arent THAT strong...
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Well the Moloch and the Demos where first hit by some kind of heat wave that apparently moves faster than the main blast..tehy were singed but still in one peace.. After that they "White blast of doom" came and vaporized them.
As for a supernova..it's explosion isn't comparable to anything ...except for another supernova. It's vaporizes PLANETS and GAS GIANTS and practicly everything else...
Basicly immagine a nuke several million times the size of Earth...well, bigger and meaner than that. :drevil:
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Well I supose with enough meson you could produce an explosion similar to the one cause by a star gooing nova. also it depends on the size of the star. since a bigger star will produce a bigger bang while a smaller one a smaller explosion. So then you will need what.....enough meson to form a small moon out of them in order to produce a similar bang to that of a supernova??
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Nono. What I mean is, sticking a meson bomb 2km from a moloch will provide the same results as a Supernova millions of miles away
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:wtf:
The shivans can use nodes too unstable for the Terrans or Vasudans but they sure as hell can't CREATE them.. :blah:
hi,
yeah, but i think maybe they can forecasting the building or maybe they can manipulate or fasten the prozess.
but we dont know it, how advance thiere subspace technologie is, only that is more advance as the of the GTVA.
Nono. What I mean is, sticking a meson bomb 2km from a moloch will provide the same results as a Supernova millions of miles away
we doesnt have any corectly data of the energyrate that set free a meson bomb explosion.
so we dont can it compare.
but a supernova is the biggest energy explosion that the mankind had observed in the universe, only a black hole set more energy free (a black hole set 40% of the mass that collapse in it free as energy).
if a great star go to a supernova the pressur in the core is so high, that it create elements above iron.
its really hard to believe that any in the solarsystem can survive so an explosion and after the explosion the pulsar they left after the sun die, blow away, of the center, the hot gas.
Mehrpack
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Well the Moloch and the Demos where first hit by some kind of heat wave that apparently moves faster than the main blast..tehy were singed but still in one peace.. After that they "White blast of doom" came and vaporized them.
As for a supernova..it's explosion isn't comparable to anything ...except for another supernova. It's vaporizes PLANETS and GAS GIANTS and practicly everything else...
Basicly immagine a nuke several million times the size of Earth...well, bigger and meaner than that. :drevil:
A funny thing, althought I think it was due to technical limitations, is that the planets in the cutscene don't get destroyed (apart from waves of heat/energy across the surface) or vaporized, they are just pushed away. :lol:
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It's also a question of what kind of explosion it is, Meson blasts probably release one hell of a lot of energy, but very little 'matter', there's no real shrapnel in a Meson blast, whereas a Supernova not only is one of the strongest X-Ray sources known, but explodes like a grenade, throwing massive chunks of superheated matter in every direction at phenomenal speeds.
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With written records someone could tamper with them..yes..or misinterpret them...or when copying them change them a little to suite his POW.
It's happened before a lot.
But recordings? Who would ever tamper with them? If I make a copy of the 9/11 video news reports I won't change anything on it.. In thousands of years of copying do you really think hte next copy and the next and the next will be changed?
Now go slap yourself several times :drevil:
With recordings you do have a point. Who would tamper with historical recordings. Well first off would they survive on whatever medium they're on? This has been addressed earlier in the thread, and yeah recordings would most likely survive and not degrade if kept properly. But, who would ever tamper with them? Well people probably wouldn't alter the original, but plenty of people today get copies of major historical **** today and alter the videos to suit they're purposes all the time...it's called youtube. Where you get this stupid **** (this is by far completely retarded with facts that back up the conspiracy from a stupid **** head who can fold a 20$ bill, forgot to mention 9+11=20) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE). Reminds me of how 10+10=20.
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A funny thing, althought I think it was due to technical limitations, is that the planets in the cutscene don't get destroyed (apart from waves of heat/energy across the surface) or vaporized, they are just pushed away. :lol:
They get vaporized too... remeber the "second", white blast..
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http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_qiWAgQeAVY
FS had some brilliant cutscenes.
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A funny thing, althought I think it was due to technical limitations, is that the planets in the cutscene don't get destroyed (apart from waves of heat/energy across the surface) or vaporized, they are just pushed away. :lol:
They get vaporized too... remeber the "second", white blast..
No, they don't. They get pushed by the white blast, look at the right edge of the screen when it is occuring.
1 (http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8467/vlcsnap118666oy2.png) 2 (http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5448/vlcsnap118726se9.png) 3 (http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2883/vlcsnap118880ej2.png) To provide some visual hints when seeing the cutscene.
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A funny thing, althought I think it was due to technical limitations, is that the planets in the cutscene don't get destroyed (apart from waves of heat/energy across the surface) or vaporized, they are just pushed away. :lol:
They get vaporized too... remeber the "second", white blast..
No, they don't. They get pushed by the white blast, look at the right edge of the screen when it is occuring.
That's just an effect to signify the end of the cutscene, similar thing's done for Hallfight.
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Huh?
EDIT: We're mentioning the planets, not the corvettes.
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They get pushed becoause of the huge force involved...then they are engulfed in the whitness...what do you think happens to them there?
pushed, then vaporized...
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They get pushed becoause of the huge force involved...then they are engulfed in the whitness...what do you think happens to them there?
pushed, then vaporized...
Only if it is outside the cutscene, because they are pushed offscreen. They aren't covered in whiteness...
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They are not pushed.They are Disintegrated.
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They are not pushed.They are Disintegrated.
The planets?
Again, watch the cutscene, watch the right edge of the screen, you'll see this (http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/2883/vlcsnap118880ej2.png) getting pushed offscreen.
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I have plans on making a campaign based on a new species. It has a storyline that will blow your mind. ;7 Concept art for new ships and everything.