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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Topgun on July 19, 2007, 08:23:55 am

Title: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Topgun on July 19, 2007, 08:23:55 am
as some of you may know, I am making a Newtonian mod. I have come into a problem. when you dogfight a maneuverable fighter it becomes too hard and in the end it is boring. they just move too darn fast. what should I do about it?
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Game_Master64 on July 19, 2007, 09:40:26 am
so in effect something like the turkey has the maneuvability of the bat. well, i guess all you can do is make all the really maneuverable fighteres less maneuverable. damn i hate that word.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Topgun on July 19, 2007, 09:46:20 am
so in effect something like the turkey has the maneuvability of the bat.
not really. the problem is when you have to go against a dragon or some thing. it moves so freaking fast no matter how low I put it's accel. Oh the cons of newton!!
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Ghostavo on July 19, 2007, 10:05:39 am
Is variable acceleration possible?

For example, as your speed gets higher, the acceleration in the same (general) direction you're heading gets lower and tends to 0 as it aproaches some kind of top speed. In theory it would make the fighters have a top speed but it harder to notice when compared to the original FreeSpace.

The only problem is that it would not be truly newtonian and turning 90º would be a pain.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Topgun on July 19, 2007, 10:36:43 am
Is variable acceleration possible?

For example, as your speed gets higher, the acceleration in the same (general) direction you're heading gets lower and tends to 0 as it aproaches some kind of top speed. In theory it would make the fighters have a top speed but it harder to notice when compared to the original FreeSpace.

The only problem is that it would not be truly newtonian and turning 90º would be a pain.

Thats what I thought of, but I heve yet to find a way to do so.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Mustang19 on July 19, 2007, 01:57:15 pm
Your main weapon will be long-range secondaries. There have been a few coders who made guns that track your target, but this isn't necessary. All you have to do is give the player long-range, fast heatseekers that act like a target-tracking gun.

Basically, you'll have to create new weapons to compensate; maybe a high-damage, high-rate-of-fire primary would do the same job.

Quote
it moves so freaking fast no matter how low I put it's accel.

The acceleration value is counterintuitive; the lower the value, the higher the acceleration. So lowering the value isn't going to make your ships accelerate slower. Try raising it.

Quote
For example, as your speed gets higher, the acceleration in the same (general) direction you're heading gets lower and tends to 0 as it aproaches some kind of top speed. In theory it would make the fighters have a top speed but it harder to notice when compared to the original FreeSpace.

Perhaps a slow-recharge afterburner; once the burner is worn out, your acceleration is much slower. Just a thought. I think that the target will have enough time to accelerate to high speed regardless.

I'm interested in any kind of newtonian development in FreeSpace; it always bugs me how ships travel slower than bottle rockets.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Topgun on July 19, 2007, 02:02:11 pm
Quote
it moves so freaking fast no matter how low I put it's accel.

The acceleration value is counterintuitive; the lower the value, the higher the acceleration. So lowering the value isn't going to make your ships accelerate slower. Try raising it.

[

*slaps Mustang* I know that!


and I think always having to use the afterburner will get annoying...
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: foolfromhell on July 22, 2007, 06:25:19 pm
It may be that the GTA engineers didnt like Newtonian physics and installed retroboosters and other stablizing methods into their fighters....
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Eishtmo on July 22, 2007, 09:03:10 pm
I've always wondered if it had something to do with the intrasystem drive all the fighters have.  Perhaps it created a kind of "gravitational drag" on the fighter.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: jr2 on July 23, 2007, 02:11:37 am
That's what I've always supposed...
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Davros on July 23, 2007, 03:04:10 am
copy i-war
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Excalibur on July 24, 2007, 10:14:49 pm
ULTRA manueverable heat seeking tempests!!! ;)
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Topgun on July 25, 2007, 02:13:04 pm
copy i-war

I have never played I-war. what is it like?
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: castor on July 26, 2007, 05:19:56 am
It has aim-assist  :ick:
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Kie99 on July 26, 2007, 07:23:29 am
ULTRA manueverable heat seeking tempests!!! ;)

That's a good idea....you could also give the player some kind of weak beam weapon.  Would make it easier to hit things.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Game_Master64 on July 26, 2007, 03:19:47 pm
but it obstructs your view every time you fire it. the beam charge ani would have to be quite small
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Excalibur on August 09, 2007, 12:29:10 am
Once I managed to make it small enough so that they were just small glows on either side of a Ulyses ( I forgot how to spell it). It's fun, especially sweeping the fighters and watching them get knocked off course.

I also did make the tempests - 30 degree radius so they weren't too "invincible"

Another funny thing - unlimited Rockeyes at a fast fighter - watch as it alternates between trying to dodge the hordes of missiles! ;)
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: jr2 on August 09, 2007, 01:36:22 am
Ulysses... and a fighter beam shouldn't knock other fighters around as much as an AAAf or normal beam.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: S-99 on August 10, 2007, 02:21:07 am
You so need to make a long or medium range flak gun for fighters. Those track enemy fighters good, and shake them up a lot. Need i mention make interception really cool.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: akenbosch on August 10, 2007, 03:00:11 pm
beams are energy...and cant knock you around unles its actualy a stream of flaming compressed gas. but flak, on the other hand, is artillery in space.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: Excalibur on August 21, 2007, 09:40:59 pm
The fighter beam I made was just an edited ULTRA anti-fighter beam, so the mass factor was probably still the same.

Imagine flak on bombers - more invincibility since you can't sit behing them as easily.

The Shivans would be stupid and end up flakking their owm bombs! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: morriscat on August 21, 2007, 10:48:01 pm
copy i-war

This is really the best answer, but I think in the end, your main problem is the FS2 pilot AI. Iwar is fully newtonian, and when the ships are capable of moving as fast as they're willing to spend the time accellerating to, dogfighting really requires a mutual agreement to stay at speeds that allow the ships to stay within range of each other so they can shoot. This works out pretty well when the AI is designed around it, but when you give the FS2 AI the ability to move that fast, it will.

After playing with $Glide a lot, it really seems like the best compromise. FS2 AI seems to use it pretty effectively, and it allows you to do most of the stuff you'd want to do with Newtonian flight anyway.
Title: Re: darn dogfighting in newton
Post by: General Battuta on August 22, 2007, 01:16:21 am
beams are energy...and cant knock you around unles its actualy a stream of flaming compressed gas. but flak, on the other hand, is artillery in space.

I believe the beam weapons are plasma. Plasma is a stream of matter on the verge of becoming energy (essentially, as you said, flaming compressed gas.) They're quite capable of knocking ships around, I'd imagine.

Even a pure energy beam would deliver a sharp kinetic impact due to the vaporized armor and internals venting from the target.