Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Gamma_Draconis on October 25, 2007, 10:33:00 pm
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What if relationship between the Vasudans and Terrans started degrading until a new war starts? Both sides are pretty much even in terms of strength and both took massive casualties from the second encounter with the Shivans. The Vasudans have a more developed infrastructure according to info taken from the game but aside from that, both sides have pretty the same military strength and capacities.
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I think the Vasudans would win because of what you said in your post. They have a more developed infrastructure than the Terrans do. This even if the two sides fight to a standstill, they better developed Vasudan economy will be the deciding factor in a war that takes any significant length of time
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What do you mean, the T-V war?
What do you mean, the HOL rebellion?
What do you mean, the GTI rebellion?
What do you mean, the NTF rebellion?
What do you mean? There are no shortage of ideas... I think a civil war is central to the plot of BWO Inferno Second Great War Part II, for example.
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What do you mean, the T-V war?
What do you mean, the HOL rebellion?
What do you mean, the GTI rebellion?
What do you mean, the NTF rebellion?
What do you mean? There are no shortage of ideas... I think a civil war is central to the plot of BWO Inferno Second Great War Part II, for example.
I think he meant "What if the Terran-Vasudan War happened again, except after Capella? Who would win?"
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What do you mean? There are no shortage of ideas... I think a civil war is central to the plot of BWO Inferno Second Great War Part II, for example.
Woomeister said that a second Terran-Vasudan War wasn't on the agenda of Inferno. The Het-Ka was part of a much larger rebellion which involved both Terrans and Vasudans. The RVF Mihos was a fighter which could be used by both species.
I think the Vasudans would win because of what you said in your post. They have a more developed infrastructure than the Terrans do. This even if the two sides fight to a standstill, they better developed Vasudan economy will be the deciding factor in a war that takes any significant length of time
Well from what I can see I'd have to say there would be a draw. Even if the Vasudan economy was larger, you can easily see in FS2 and FS1 that the Terrans were doing virtually all of the technological advances (Shielding [who stole it first?], better Weapons [the Vasudan weapons sucked so much they needed to steal the Avenger], Target Acquisition and Guidance Missiles, Stealth Fighters, AWACS [the Setekh sucks ass], Remote Beam Cannons, the list goes on).
However, the Vasudans do seem to have a large arsenal of their own. They appear to be much better concentrated with their territory (there are many Terran systems but only five or six Vasudan systems). In addition, most of the Terran economy and military is actually based on the supporting factor of the Vasudans (I can see that many Terran systems are protected by Vasudan fleets).
From what I can see, they are both evenly matched, and it all depends on the plot you're trying to achieve, it can go either way.
(this is another way of saying "whichever side Alpha 1 is on") :nervous:
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Well from what I can see I'd have to say there would be a draw. Even if the Vasudan economy was larger, you can easily see in FS2 and FS1 that the Terrans were doing virtually all of the technological advances (Shielding [who stole it first?], better Weapons [the Vasudan weapons sucked so much they needed to steal the Avenger], Target Acquisition and Guidance Missiles, Stealth Fighters, AWACS [the Setekh sucks ass], Remote Beam Cannons, the list goes on)
Oh dear...
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and you have to remember that we're a politically savvy bunch of guys and have long thrown out the idea of honourable politics. an Alliance stays in place for as long as it suits us, so i wouldn't be surprised if the GTA was prepared for such eventualities. given the level of intermixing of the Terrans and Vasudans at the military level (your time on a vasudan ship came across as an uncommon event), its totally possible that Alpha 1 was in a position to receive orders to sabotage the vasudans and make a hasty exit if possible should a civil war happens. Best example i can think of is Matthew Reilly's 7 Deadly Wonders. In it the Bad Guys are the Americans and a French/German/Italian group and the Israelis (to a certain extent). With our heroes being Canadian, Australian, Spanish, Irish, Jamaican, Saudi, New Zealand and Israeli (to a certain extent). The Americans had done something to our Aussie Hero before the conflict had even occurred, in anticipation of such a conflict, despite the fact the two nations are allies. From what we know of the Vasudans, they are a more honourable people, and don't seem as likely to be ready to strike against an ally as readily as us fickle humans are. so I would the first shot in a civil war would be from us getting the drop on the Vasudan's (Wouldn't that be an epic first mission into a campaign....think of the morality you could explore!)
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Oh dear...
... My word!
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Well from what I can see I'd have to say there would be a draw. Even if the Vasudan economy was larger, you can easily see in FS2 and FS1 that the Terrans were doing virtually all of the technological advances: Remote Beam Cannons, the list goes on).
I believe that the Mjolnir was said to be a joint project. I think that :v: has a code for ships: Egyptian = Vasudan, Greek/Roman = Terran, Norse = joint effort. That's what it seems like to me.
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Actually Norse generally means rogue Galactic Terran Intelligence.
But I don't think that the Mjolnir was a joint-effort... I don't remember hearing that.
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I swear that I heard somewhere that the Mjolnir was a joint effort but I can't find any evidence. It's called the GTSG Mjolnir, implying Terran design. Which again proves that FreeSpace is Terran-centric.
The FreeSpace reference bible lists some of the advantage of each race. The Vasudans are better at space engines and general engineering, with the Terrans being better at "weapons". Considering that the Terrans made pretty much every technological advance and important discovery in the game, plus they're supposed to have "better weapons", I'd say that they'd win. Also remember that at the end of the TV War the Terrans were very close to Vasuda Prime, while the Vasudans were nowhere near Earth.
Then again, the Vasudans recovered from the Great War much better than the Terrans did, plus the Terrans had lost Capella (a "heavily populated system"... of "250 million" :wtf:) and "most of their fleet" (Petrarch, ending cutscene) by FS2+.
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As I said, the Terrans were very close to Vasuda Prime but had not conquered it. I think that Vasudan territory is very concentrated and they have their forces better deployed than the Terrans (the Terrans have their ships scattered throughout their systems while the Vasudans have a better concentration of their forces).
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The Meson Bomb was a joint effort... and of course the Collossus. I believe the GTF Ulysses also used elements of Vasudan engineering.
The Vasudans seem to be belittled in the FS universe. Like others have stated, the Terrans made most of the tech advances in the games, and did most of the fighting in FS2 (there was, I believe, a single Vasudan Battlegroup involved, compared to... what three Terran Fleets?). If the Vasudans were capable of fighting the Terrans to a stalemate (or close to one, anyway), they'd be making just as many advances.
Hmm... I seem to remember the Typhon being described as near-invincible when it was first introduced, or did the TVWP make that up?
Although, I suppose it is possible that all the advances made after the cease-fire was made in FS1 could have been joint efforts. The shield video showed a Vasudan and a Terran working on the shields at the same time, only a bit after the cease-fire. They could have been working together on all the weapons as well. In fact, now that I think about it, perhaps it was Vasudan expertise in drive systems that led to fighter-sized intersystem drives.
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The Meson Bomb was a joint effort... and of course the Collossus. I believe the GTF Ulysses also used elements of Vasudan engineering.
True.
The Vasudans seem to be belittled in the FS universe. Like others have stated, the Terrans made most of the tech advances in the games, and did most of the fighting in FS2 (there was, I believe, a single Vasudan Battlegroup involved, compared to... what three Terran Fleets?). If the Vasudans were capable of fighting the Terrans to a stalemate (or close to one, anyway), they'd be making just as many advances.
I don't see how they'd be making so many advances if they haven't been in the Second Great War.
Hmm... I seem to remember the Typhon being described as near-invincible when it was first introduced, or did the TVWP make that up?
It was, it apparently destroyed the Eisenhower and the something'th fleet on its own.
Although, I suppose it is possible that all the advances made after the cease-fire was made in FS1 could have been joint efforts. The shield video showed a Vasudan and a Terran working on the shields at the same time, only a bit after the cease-fire. They could have been working together on all the weapons as well. In fact, now that I think about it, perhaps it was Vasudan expertise in drive systems that led to fighter-sized intersystem drives.
Good points. I'll have to agree with you on this one.
I think the Vasudans would be able to put up a good fight, but I do think the Terrans would win eventually.
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The heavy Terran presence in FS2 is explained by the fact that Capella is a predominantly (exclusively?) Terran system. Command says it is committed to getting "Every last Terran out of the system" when the plan to destroy the nodes is announced.
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Another good point. The Terrans are busy defending that system while the Vasudans have more concentrated forces in their own territory.
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Hmm... I seem to remember the Typhon being described as near-invincible when it was first introduced, or did the TVWP make that up?
Well it destroyed a fleet. Is that evidence enough?
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One detail came to my mind. The Interceptor missile was a joint effort, combining a Vasudan-designed engine with a Terran warhead. There, the Vasudans were a part of that achievement, too. And, as already mentioned, the Ulysses was a combined effort as well.
On why it seems that the Vasudans are belittled. Why not? FreeSpace is yet another game purely for entertaining purposes. It would be somewhat demeaning if it was clearly stated and pointed out that the Vasudans are a superior race. Or even equal. No no. We must be the most powerful ones, even in games. Of course it can be said in briefings and such that both of the races are equal but you mostly hear about Terran achievements, so that the player can possibly feel proud of his race, like 'Yeah, we kick arse'. It is also why the Vasudans weren't that dangerous an opponent in the beginning of FS1. You gotta feel like you could take them all on yourself. That is also why the Shivans, who presumably annihilated countless civilizations, started to drop like flies once you got to use something as deadly as the Avenger cannon.
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IMO, to round it all off for me, the Terrans are good, but I don't think they would completely annihilate the Vasudans.
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When the Typhoon entry was first written, all the GTA had was the Apollo with the ML16, MX50 and Fury. I'd like to see someone take down an Orion with an Anubis.
Back to topic however, the T-V war lasted 14 years and was a war of attrition, with both sides facing stalemate with rapidly depleting resources. Although we now have moved forward 32 years, even with the advancement of technologies, we would be in the same situation.
Which ironically, is what the current state of affairs is. We are both nomads, searching for either a new home in the case of the Vasudans, or in our case, a way home. It would make no sense to split as both sides would lose. The GTVA General Assembly must be prepared to make concessions on both sides.
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When the Typhoon entry was first written, all the GTA had was the Apollo with the ML16, MX50 and Fury. I'd like to see someone take down an Orion with an Anubis.
Typhoon? Is that a new ship?
Back to topic however, the T-V war lasted 14 years and was a war of attrition, with both sides facing stalemate with rapidly depleting resources. Although we now have moved forward 32 years, even with the advancement of technologies, we would be in the same situation.
I agree. It's either 1) one side wins quickly and completely annihilates the other or 2) war of attrition. Number 2 sounds a lot more plausible.
Which ironically, is what the current state of affairs is. We are both nomads, searching for either a new home in the case of the Vasudans, or in our case, a way home. It would make no sense to split as both sides would lose. The GTVA General Assembly must be prepared to make concessions on both sides.
Agreed.
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When the Typhoon entry was first written, all the GTA had was the Apollo with the ML16, MX50 and Fury. I'd like to see someone take down an Orion with an Anubis.
I don't think the GTA planned to attack a Typhon with an Apollo, just as I doubt the PVN planned on taking out an Orion with an Anubis. What they were saying was that a Typhon could easily destroy an Orion-class destroyer
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why it seems that the Vasudans are belittled.
Well if anything I made the argument that they are an honourable race...and that we'd backstab them if we had the chance. what does that say about us?
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When the Typhoon entry was first written, all the GTA had was the Apollo with the ML16, MX50 and Fury. I'd like to see someone take down an Orion with an Anubis.
Technically that was all your pilot had listed in the databank. The absence of entries in the databank doesn't automatically infer it didn't exist until the entry was added, you just didn't have information about it.
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Well everyone believes that the Terrans would even be able to put up much of a fight! By this point in time we see the Vasudans as havyng the heavy armoured heavy hitter ships of the GTVA FLEET!
Whyle the terrans have the Hecate which is more of a C&C carrier/destroyer then a "pure bread" destroyer such as the Orion and the Hatshepsut! Also I'm not exactly sure about this but i believe the vasudans have a lot more corvettes then the terrans! also theyr beam weapons i tend to consider them better then terran ones beacause they have a lower recharge rate! Thus more damage overtime!
However it is also true that is such a war would happen it would result in severe casualties in both races! But overall the Vasudans with the more concentrated and somewhat superrior firepower and better developed economy would be able to wint the day! Also there are many new fighters that are GTVA advances not terran nor vasudan! So the tech is available to both of them!
One of the reasons why most of the new advances are presented as terran could be simply because the terran industry needed to be in charge in some areas in order to help it catch up with the vasundan one. You know political decisions to have the said weapons sistems constructed by a specific terran contractor instead of a vasudan one.
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When the Typhoon entry was first written, all the GTA had was the Apollo with the ML16, MX50 and Fury. I'd like to see someone take down an Orion with an Anubis.
I don't think the GTA planned to attack a Typhon with an Apollo, just as I doubt the PVN planned on taking out an Orion with an Anubis. What they were saying was that a Typhon could easily destroy an Orion-class destroyer
The Eisenhower wasn't an Orion class I thought? I thought I read somewhere that when the Orion was introduced, it restored the balance against the Typhon or something in that vein.
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Not true! When the first Typhoon appeared it took out an Orion and its entire fleet!
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It wasn't specified that it was an Orion class. It only says that it took out the GTD Eisenhower. That might merely be the predecessor of the Orion class.
And is it really that hard to type Typhon? What on earth is the Typhoon class?
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I'd say mutual fear of being both wiped out keeps the alliance together. They don't know if the Shivans are coming back. In fact if they both share at least one characteristic, it's that they fear xenocidal virtually unstoppable alien races.
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I'd say mutual fear of being both wiped out keeps the alliance together. They don't know if the Shivans are coming back. In fact if they both share at least one characteristic, it's that they fear xenocidal virtually unstoppable alien races.
Who doesn't? Lol...
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I don't think the GTA planned to attack a Typhon with an Apollo, just as I doubt the PVN planned on taking out an Orion with an Anubis. What they were saying was that a Typhon could easily destroy an Orion-class destroyer
Rubbih. FS1 Orion pwns a Typhon. Sure, its' a dangerous craft, but Orion is better.
Remeber the tech room only said that when the first Typhon was sighted at Vega, it destroyed the Eisenhower and a few others ships.
It doesn't say HOW the ships were destroyed. Probably a ambush by hordes of fighters.
I very much doubt it that it just jumped in the middel of the terran fleet and started blasting.
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What on earth is the Typhoon class?
It is the Russian OMGWTFLOLROTFLBBQOVERKILL equivalent of the SSBN Ohio:
(http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/typhoon/images/typhoon2.jpg)
(http://www.armscontrol.ru/atmtc/Arms_systems/Navy/Submarine/941_Typhoon.jpg)
(http://www.tonyrogers.com/weapons/russian/typhoon_04.jpg)
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So AlphaOne was indeed correct when he stated that a Typhoon took out an Orion and its entire fleet when it appeared for the first time. :lol:
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Rubbih. FS1 Orion pwns a Typhon. Sure, its' a dangerous craft, but Orion is better.
Remeber the tech room only said that when the first Typhon was sighted at Vega, it destroyed the Eisenhower and a few others ships.
It doesn't say HOW the ships were destroyed. Probably a ambush by hordes of fighters.
I very much doubt it that it just jumped in the middel of the terran fleet and started blasting.
We don't know. The Orion could have been upgraded following the Vega Engagement.
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In any case, Orions carry a ridiculously small amount of turrets either way.
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so does a typhon..What do you think I upturreted them for?
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In fact all Freespace 1 ships carry a comparable small amount of armament. And it's only blobs! Watching capship fights in FS1 is boring as hell. Until the Lucifer or Hades (use your SSLs damnit!) jumps in.
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I could of sworn it was a Typhon (See now i get it :P ) that first took out an Orion class destroyer!
either way it is also true about the orions ridiculously low turret numbers. But in FS2 an Orion owns any destroyer class ships except for a Ravana. but then again its hard to imagine a destroyer capabvle of owning a Ravana head on. The fact remains that the Terran fleet has been weakened overall by the decomisioning of the last remaining Orions . Well not all of them but i remember it says that the Orion class was beeing phased out by the Hecate which to me equal a HUGE mistake.
The Vasudans had no choice in the matter theyr Typhon class could not handle the beam cannons that well so they did what they always do they made a new one to replace it. And i must say it the second most powerfull destroyer in the GTVA after the Orion. Well actualy it all depends on how you look at things. :D
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I'd say the Hatshepsut is the most powerful destroyer in the game because it is so well-balanced in terms of firepower compared to all others.
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Well from what I can see I'd have to say there would be a draw. Even if the Vasudan economy was larger, you can easily see in FS2 and FS1 that the Terrans were doing virtually all of the technological advances (Shielding [who stole it first?], better Weapons [the Vasudan weapons sucked so much they needed to steal the Avenger], Target Acquisition and Guidance Missiles, Stealth Fighters, AWACS [the Setekh sucks ass], Remote Beam Cannons, the list goes on).
In FS1 the Terrans made many, many important advancements, but in FS2 this wasn't so true. Most new technology was either Vasudan (Deimos reactors, beams, flak) or a joint development effort (meson bomb). Some things like stealth ships, awacs, TAG missiles go to the Terrans. RBC's are just an evolution of beam technology, nothing terribly groundbreaking.
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In FS1 the Terrans made many, many important advancements, but in FS2 this wasn't so true. Most new technology was either Vasudan (Deimos reactors, beams, flak) or a joint development effort (meson bomb). Some things like stealth ships, awacs, TAG missiles go to the Terrans. RBC's are just an evolution of beam technology, nothing terribly groundbreaking.
There's no canon evidence that beam cannons (as in beam cannons in general) were created by the Vasudans, is there? Neither is there canon evidence for flak (but IMO flak cannons better be Vasudan or the Vasudans are just ****ing lackeys :rolleyes:). Stealth ships, "better" weapons and RBCs are very instrumental to military engagements (TAG missiles not so much :P j/k).
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Well when you have your back against the wall the vasudans would use quite some RBC's also is it just me or do the vasudans have at least 2 times the number of corvettes that the terrans do???
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Maybe because the Vasudans are more industrially capable of producing a larger fleet of corvettes? Also, they didn't have the misfortune of a rebel uprising.
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On the contrary ! Rememeber the HOL uprising! If i remember corectly it was even more crippeling to the Vasudans then the NTF was to the terrans even if boght terrans and vasudans suffered casualties in that specific conflict! Also looking at the way the vasudans are gooing at this they seem to get one good design that works then mass produce it. When that specific thing is no longer up to standards they usualy replace it even if they sometimes try to upgrade it like they did with the typhon. So even if the Vasudans have lots of corvettes i do not believe they have and equal number of destroyers as the terrans do. I believe it was said in the tech room description that the Hatshepsut class of destroyers is brand new and that they have yet to finish a lot of them .
At least not nearly enough of them to supliment the holes left out by the old Typhon. They tend to supliment this with loads of corvettes however. I believe that once they near completion of a new batch of destroyers the number of vasudan destroyers will increase at a very fast rate. They have all the corvettes they need they lack however destroyers.
Also it is safe to asume that the vasudans will try to make theyr own Iceni or at least a variant of theyr own. Either way let us all remember that the Deimos would not be such a kickarse ship without its vasudan reactors and power sistems .
I also believe similar tipes of vasudan reactor would of been implemented in the Hecate class destroyers since its pretty obvious vasudans are better at this.
However one thing im disapaointed is that we have yet to see if a vasudan beam can be overloaded the same way a terran beam is. sure there is the one with the Psamtick but noone cares about that one. Aside from taht we have no clear reference to vasudans overloading beam cannons.
Cuz if they can overload beam cannons then the terrans are well done for in case of a war. Better HP better ship designs and overall standar weaponry, better offensive capabilaties on the Vasudan part. So the odds to me its seems are on the vasudan side.
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The Hammer of Light is old news though. So sure, both the Terrans and Vasudans have had a rebel uprising, but only the NTF happened recently. The Vasudan economy rebounded remarkably, despite their home planet being razed by the Lucifer, so claims that they can outproduce use aren't particularly far fetched.
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Also, I think the threat of the Hammer of Light has been completely eliminated by this time. Even if there are a few HOL bases/ships left, it wouldn't even compare to the military of the NTF. Also, if the Terrans and Vasudans became enemies, wouldn't the NTF join forces with the GTA? That's what they wanted in the first place. Plus, there's the whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing.
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The thing is, the NTF is nearly dead, if not completely finished. What little forces they have left were probably in the Nebula following Bosch. Any survivors were probably tried for War Crimes under the BeTac Convention. If the alliance did collapse, I think it is safe to say, it would be a stalemate between both sides.
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Also, if the Terrans and Vasudans became enemies, wouldn't the NTF join forces with the GTA? That's what they wanted in the first place. Plus, there's the whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing.
No, the hatred of Vasudans was a ruse to get Ancient tech/knowledge.
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No, the hatred of Vasudans was a ruse to get Ancient tech/knowledge.
Yeah, but only for Bosch and a few selected high-ranking officers. It was pretty clearly stated that the majority of the NTF fought solely because of their hatred and fear for the Vasudans. Bosch merely exploited that little fact so that he could masquerade his raiding operations and draw attention away from his true plans.
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The fact remains that the terrans and vasudans have suffered quite a blow to both theyr economies and milatary might in theyr conflict against the Shivans with the trrans loosing the most destroyer sized vessels. However the vasudans also lost quite a number of them considering that they only had a hand full of Typhon's and Hatshepsuts. However i do believe that the total number of destroyers were about equal in terms of destroyers. Yet the terrans have lost many more.
As for corvettes and cruisers the vasudans at least when it omes to corvettes would have a 2:1 ratio over terrans. Since the Sobek has been in production much longer then the Deimos.
An eventual war would be cripaling to both sides but still i believe that the Vasudans with superior manufacturing and economy lvl's should be able to barely win the war. however it would not be a total victory since in the war they would surely loose a horrific amount of ships. So a victory yes a total win no!
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I don't think the Vasudans would win personally, as much as I like those great frog-headed head eating aliens.
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youre just beein terran. arogant ya know! those damn terrans they always think they are the center of the universe hell they dont even eat headz :))) sorry! i was thinking of what a vasudan would say!
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Nah, they would say something more like "Typical arrogant Terrans with your stupid looking asses! I'll moon you when I jump out in my escape pod!!"
But seriously, I think a Vasudan-Terran war would come to a draw. What you said before (about the Vasudans not winning a total victory) is completely correct, but I don't think the Vasudans would be able to completely crush the Terran resistance, and the Terrans wouldn't be able to defeat the entire Vasudan race.
Both races have extremely powerful technologies, and are advanced in different aspects. The Vasudans are better at reactors and general engineering, the Terrans have better weapons and newer technologies.
It looks to me that there would be a long war that would come to an eventual cease fire, if not the Terrans would win.