Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Hazaanko on November 25, 2007, 11:00:33 pm
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Blam
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=109_1195663753
P.S. I know versions of this thing have been around for a while, but I hadn't seen one so far along nor in action before.
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I think it more closely resembles the idea behind the powerloader from Aliens.
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pretty ****ing cool. not something id take into combat but id certainly want one if i was a weapon loader on an aircraft carrier.
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...powerloader from Aliens.
...or the Mjolnir series of battle armors from Halo, or even Ironman's suits (just add a backpack with jets! :p). The only parallel to terminators was that they could be made independently operating versions, which would be closer to Terminators - which are, after all, endo-skeletons. Covert operations models (before T-1000 anyway) have living tissue over metal endo-skeleton, if I remember the famous line correctly... This is living tissue inside a metal exo-skeleton.
I want one of these, if only to turn it into a Mjolnir armour. Ho much do you reckon I would have to pay for one? ;7
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There's a better one out there, but I can't remember the name.
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...powerloader from Aliens.
...or the Mjolnir series of battle armors from Halo, or even Ironman's suits (just add a backpack with jets! :p). The only parallel to terminators was that they could be made independently operating versions, which would be closer to Terminators - which are, after all, endo-skeletons. Covert operations models (before T-1000 anyway) have living tissue over metal endo-skeleton, if I remember the famous line correctly... This is living tissue inside a metal exo-skeleton.
Wrong reference.
FOR THE EMPEROR!
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Welcome to Roughnecks.
-RAZAK'S ROUGHNECKS! :mad2:
:lol:
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Welcome to Roughnecks.
-RAZAK'S ROUGHNECKS! :mad2:
:lol:
That's Rasczak. And yes, this is presents the first few steps towards Starship Troopers-style powered armour exosuits. Hopefully one day we'll have fully or at least partially autonomous armed forces, removing much of the tragedy from modern warfare.
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Spelling varies from the book to the
movie film ...thing. In the book it is originally as you wrote it, but I didn't really bother checking either.
I could have went the easy way though and just make it Rico's Roughnecks! :p
...Also, what do you mean by autonomous armed forces? Purely military personnel in control of all three branches of power from Mr. Montesquieu's classification (legislative, executive and judicial power), without civilian governments, parliaments or courts? :shaking:
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Spelling varies from the book to the movie film ...thing. In the book it is originally as you wrote it, but I didn't really bother checking either.
Actually, I believe they only went with 'Razak' in the Roughneck Chronicles, which itself was a very cool little series.
...Also, what do you mean by autonomous armed forces? Purely military personnel in control of all three branches of power from Mr. Montesquieu's classification (legislative, executive and judicial power), without civilian governments, parliaments or courts? :shaking:
Whoops, meant 'automated'. Freudian slip revealing my true political leanings, perhaps? :nervous:
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I think he meant something like the Cylons. :p
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Wrong reference.
FOR THE EMPEROR!
Burn the Heretics! A open mind is like a castle with it's gate unbarred and unguarded!
LOL...the bulkier version does resemble terminator suits somewhat...a very primitive terminator suit
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...powerloader from Aliens.
...or the Mjolnir series of battle armors from Halo, or even Ironman's suits (just add a backpack with jets! :p). The only parallel to terminators was that they could be made independently operating versions, which would be closer to Terminators - which are, after all, endo-skeletons. Covert operations models (before T-1000 anyway) have living tissue over metal endo-skeleton, if I remember the famous line correctly... This is living tissue inside a metal exo-skeleton.
Wrong reference.
FOR THE EMPEROR!
Nope, again, wrong. MJOLNIR BATTLE SUITS ARE ORIGINALLY FROM MARATHON, THE VERY BEST FPS *EVER*.
Halo sux.
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Nope, again, wrong. MJOLNIR BATTLE SUITS ARE ORIGINALLY FROM MARATHON, THE VERY BEST FPS *EVER*.
Halo sux
Blasphemy! Burn him!
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I saw this a few years ago in a Believe It Or Not book. The user of that one felt only a maximum 5 pounds of force exerted on him while doing any of those tasks and more. And that was two years ago, a third of the development of this robot! Imagine how good it is now!
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The only thing Emperor asks for is your complete obedience.
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And the will to kill off all of his enemies...and the skill the use a bolter and chainsword :P
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Surprise Buttsecks!
Seriously though, the first one looks like a Terminator from the Movies, the second one does resemble Terminator armour from WH40K.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Surprise Buttsecks!
Seriously though, the first one looks like a Terminator from the Movies, the second one does resemble Terminator armour from WH40K.
Now why does that look like something from Ghostbusters? :wtf:
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I don't know if there is any way for me to be more excited about this. Seriously, this is a step toward human-controlled Mech fights! All of my dreams are coming true:
1. Gundams
2. Metal Gears
3. Evas
:D
Ahh, gotta love the new ways in which humans can kill each other :rolleyes:
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Nah, we'll just build remote or AI controlled robots and watch them pound each other senseless.
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XD Pretty cool! :D
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OH my God, I just thought of the greatest idea with this suit --> Robot Wars + UFC = Count me in!
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Posted by: Sasquatch
OH my God, I just thought of the greatest idea with this suit --> Robot Wars + UFC = Count me in!
Already done in OMF 2097.
Mika
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Is that that flick with 2 giant robots fighting in an arena?
Two really HUGE robots, no heads, human pilots has a small cockpit in the chest, a white-red robot fighting a blask one?
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One Must Fall 2097 was a beat-'em-up featuring giant robots IIRC.
As for the film you're talking about - I think I remember seeing a trailer for it years and years ago, it rings a bell. I think it was made in the 80's but I don't know the name of it. Maybe the game was based on the film, not sure though.
You don't see many films about giant fighting robots (well, I don't). But there was that recent Transformers film.
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*ahem*
Maybe we should get back to the topic at hand. This exoskeleton seems pretty useful. The video was lame, however. "Look at him run!" (soldier in exoskeleton tiptoes two meters) "FOR GOD'S SAKE, HE CAN EVEN WALK ON HIS HEELS!" I don't think it will be even remotely useful on the battlefield, however, until some sort of body armour is attached. I mean, what's the use if it just makes you slower? The fleshy parts are still exposed, and there's little call for heavy lifting out there. Powered armour would be useful; make heavy bulletproof plates completely weightless. And they definitely need to integrate some sort of hand or pincer, instead of the hooks which they currently have attached.
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Once they finish this off (i.e. add armor and weapons), I think it could be somewhat useful on the battlefield. A soldier in powered armor could be used to transport heavier supplies, increasing the other soldiers' mobility. Or that soldier could be used to carry a really heavy weapon. Imagine that suit mounted with a 3000 rounds per minute Gatling cannon or maybe a large mortar or missile system.
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I've always thought that putting a human inside a machine is pointless to be honest, much better to have the machine controlled by someone several miles away in a VR Booth or the like, the machine would even have more freedom of motion because there'd be no squishy human in the way. I know that there's the whole 'situational awareness' thing about having someone on the spot, but, let's face it, if you're envisioning grenade proof suits with arm-mounted chain guns then they aren't likely to be there to help with the milk rounds.
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*ahem*
Maybe we should get back to the topic at hand. This exoskeleton seems pretty useful. The video was lame, however. "Look at him run!" (soldier in exoskeleton tiptoes two meters) "FOR GOD'S SAKE, HE CAN EVEN WALK ON HIS HEELS!" I don't think it will be even remotely useful on the battlefield, however, until some sort of body armour is attached. I mean, what's the use if it just makes you slower? The fleshy parts are still exposed, and there's little call for heavy lifting out there. Powered armour would be useful; make heavy bulletproof plates completely weightless. And they definitely need to integrate some sort of hand or pincer, instead of the hooks which they currently have attached.
Actually, demonstrating that operating the suit doesn't change fundamental motoric constant of human movement is quite important. It means that the suit is pretty easy to use, which is rather paramount for the design being useful. Having a suit that only increases force capacity at the price of hugely decreased dexterity would not be a good pay-off in most situations. In that sense, it is more important to showcase the fine-tuning that enables more motoric-intensive activities, like tiptoeing or walking on heels, than taking two running steps before the leash runs out. It seemed to me more than the limiting thing in running speed was the leash the suit got power from, not the motoric limitations. I could be wrong though, but from the movements of the guy in suit, it did seem pretty unrestricted so I would guess running would be as possible as without the suit.
I guess it all boils to the response time of the suit. Slow, force-intensive tasks are pretty easy to make happen - it's the fine co-ordination and fast movements that leaves machinery on the shore, so to speak.
For example, the full functionality of human hand motorics and the effectiveness of fingers as pincers is yet to be duplicated (AFAIK). And I do not know if the response time of that particular suit is enough to control the limbs at full running speed.
Could be pretty amusing to put some competitive sprinter in this suit (without the leash) and tell them to do a 200 metre run... :lol:
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The main problem right now is power source. We don't have batteries small enough / powerful enough to make this a reality. But I can see this kind of thing being really useful on the battlefield. Probably not during actual combat operations, unless the thing was really maneuverable and armored... it would probably be used to clear debris / tear down barriers... things like that.
But yeah - if they made one of these things REALLY fast... THAT would be scary to face in combat.
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Fuel cells? Although carrying the hydrogen would have the same problems why it isn't widely used as energy storage in transportation - low energy density without being in cold liquid state, which takes energy or damn good insulation to keep cool...
Small combustion engine+generator(/compressor)? Increased weight is offset by increased power, and the noise would only be problem in sneaky pre-combat maneuvering... Most of the fighty time the noise levels are so high that no one would pay attention to quietly operating 4-stroke engine loading the batteries. Like any hybrid car, it could also be set to operate in batter-only-mode. If the suit doesn't use power servos to operate the limbs but instead uses, say, hydraulics, just switch the generator to compressor and smaller generator to keep the electronics going.
And, in civilian use the noise wouldn't be any problem because there's no need to avoid detection in, say, firefighting or other jobs where increased strength and endurance (as well as protection from environment) would be very useful.
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Small combustion engine+generator(/compressor)?
Walking around with a tank of gasoline is just asking for trouble, plus the noise would give away your position and conceal the enemies position.
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Once they finish this off (i.e. add armor and weapons), I think it could be somewhat useful on the battlefield. A soldier in powered armor could be used to transport heavier supplies, increasing the other soldiers' mobility. Or that soldier could be used to carry a really heavy weapon. Imagine that suit mounted with a 3000 rounds per minute Gatling cannon or maybe a large mortar or missile system.
Armor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPS2l5fQ55A&mode=related&search=) Weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BETIBqeZA10)
XD
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Weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BETIBqeZA10)
XD
Hahaha, guess how I heard the guy said "a silent assassin waiting for it's pray" at almost the end of that clip?
Walking around with a tank of gasoline is just asking for trouble, plus the noise would give away your position and conceal the enemies position.
Well, it all depends on what kind of fuel is used and how the fuel system is protected. Using diesel would be preferable for better fuel efficiency, and it would also decrease the flammability of the fuel. Fuel tanks can be made self-sealing, and with sufficient protection to fuel lines and the engine it could be made so that when the engine/fuel tank is killed by enemy fire, that's the least of the problems the guy in the suit is having at the moment.
Air intake would likely be the worst problem for this kind of approach. It would not do to have the multimillion master chief go down with a Molotov cocktail like the early Soviet WW2 tanks, but it is possible to avoid these problems.
I could also point out that by your logic, every time the soldier jumps into a vehicle he's going around with a big tank of fuel. And one view of suits like this is that they indeed are vehicles. Definitely more so than, say, a bicycle, because bicycle is at least muscle operated.
Also, the sound issue is not as bad as you might think. You would definitely need a possibility to put it on battery-only mode, but when the defecation impacts the air circulation system, no one will be hearing the sound from a small four-stroke engine, especially if it's properly silenced. There will likely be hell of a lot bigger tank engines roaring, likely at both sides, gun shots, artillery firing, people possibly wearing ear protection... have you ever been to simulated battlefield? Even with small arms only, the sound scenery becomes extremely confusing really soon when the shooting begins. Need for quiet movement only lasts from the vehicles to the beginning of the firing; after that it's not a problem.
That of course means that the batteries will need to be good enough to power the suit during the approach phrase when getting detected is not desireable. Otherwise, the engine is a good way to load the batteries and offer energy as long as fuel is available. Of course that would tie the suit to logistics more than would be perhaps desireable, which would kinda prohibit the armor from equipment for behind the lines -operations.
Of course, for civilian applications, the sound problem is not really even a problem but more of a feature.
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Is that that flick with 2 giant robots fighting in an arena?
Two really HUGE robots, no heads, human pilots has a small cockpit in the chest, a white-red robot fighting a blask one?
That's Robot Jox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07F7DGcVcsc)!
Back on topic: I think the greatest problem not yet shown is if you fall over, how the hell do you get up in the suit? It hasn't demonstrated the required dexterity for that yet. Probably that's the real reason it's tethered.
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That's Robot Jox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07F7DGcVcsc)!
:lol:
"Go get 'em, Commander" *Pat on the butt*
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I've always thought that putting a human inside a machine is pointless to be honest, much better to have the machine controlled by someone several miles away in a VR Booth or the like, the machine would even have more freedom of motion because there'd be no squishy human in the way. I know that there's the whole 'situational awareness' thing about having someone on the spot, but, let's face it, if you're envisioning grenade proof suits with arm-mounted chain guns then they aren't likely to be there to help with the milk rounds.
The big problem with remote control is that it's a lot cheaper to train hackers to take over the enemies suits than it is to actually build them yourself.
There's a very real danger of sending a battalion of super robots against an enemy position only to have them suddenly turn around and start shooting at you. And given the startling number of times I've heard of the Pentagon being hacked by some kid sitting in his bedroom I don't much like the chances of them managing to keep something like this out of the hands of enemies who are doing this for their very survival rather than just for **** and giggles.
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There's quite a difference. The Pentagon is simply incompetent.
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Yeah, but it's the Pentagon that plans a great number of military operations...And is responsible for military spending/buying...
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That's why they ARE incompetent. Look at all these hundreds of billions dollars already spent in Iraq/Afghanistan.
Maybe they hope the oil will get the money back in?
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Yeah but given how incompetent and power hungry they are do you not think that the Pentagon will insist in keeping a master copy of all the access codes for remote battle units? :D
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"Stand back, I'm gonna vaporize!" - Prophet, Crysis
Could be very real.
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Armor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPS2l5fQ55A&mode=related&search=) - Made by a Canadian
Weapons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BETIBqeZA10) - Made by an Australian
Just pointing that out for the heck of it. :D
The MetalStorm gun wouldn't be a good idea for a machine gun to be fired for long periods of time in the middle of a battle. In a MetalStorm, the bullets are stacked inside of the barrel, hence to get more bullets you have to add more/longer barrels. It becomes unpractical in the middle of battle, which is how you people (and I) are viewing this suit.
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But, why is this suit necessary? Where is it needed? Wheeled or tracked vehicles are much more fuel efficient in movements than a walking one, and have easier time to deal with loads or lifting duties. Also, I'm pretty sure its terrain capabilities are not as good as tracked vehicles'.
Please note I'm all for the research of external systems to move injured person's limbs, or for example, to help blind person's eyes. If the suit is a kind of framework for that kind of research, then I understand it. Otherwise I don't see the point.
Mika
EDIT: "Please note I'm all for the research of external systems to move injured person's limbs, or for example, to help blind eyes."
Changed in order to avoid a hilarious misunderstanding.
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This suit is more flexible than a conventional vehicle. And I don't think that it is meant to be combat deployed at this stage, I think that it's more of a research exercise. The point of this would be to make the naked soldier (figure of speech) more powerful, and act as an extension of one's body, while fitting into tighter spaces than the aforementioned conventional vehicle.
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I think its research money well spent. Think how useful something like this would be in search + rescue operations. You never know where something is going to take you. Arguably, without the space program/race, we wouldn't have computers and/or plastics at this point.
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Thank you. That is what I'm trying to say.
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Then at the current stage, the only military application for it would be inside a city, and actually on the streets, not inside the buildings. S&R operations applications I don't buy at all. They would be pretty much impossible for the system. Are you talking about augmenting human muscles with the suit?
But as a framework research it is interesting of course, I'm just wondering about the applications. As a challenge to materials research and mechanical engineering, they could try to replicate the motion of a kangaroo.
Mika
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Actually, it would be great for S&R. Survivors under a ton of ruble? No problems with this - faster than a crane.
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The big problem with remote control is that it's a lot cheaper to train hackers to take over the enemies suits than it is to actually build them yourself.
That's an oft-quoted possiblity, but given the current level of encryption capablity available to the US (i.e. the electronicized version of the one-time tape), it's an extremely low order of probablity. Functionally impossible, in fact. You would have to first crack the encryption on the command communications, which even with a lesser encryption system is going to take considerable computing power (the NSA has the most powerful supercomputers in the world for a reason). Current communications-security technology and digital encryption has basically reached the point where you can't do that in real time, and because it is damn near if not actually totally random, assuming you do decypher the proper command to do one thing or another and transmit it the same way, it won't work because of the randomization involved. You would actually do better just to transmit random sequences and hope it worked.
Jamming is a much more realistic possiblity and the reason why they're building these suits and not robots.
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Posted by: TrashMan
Actually, it would be great for S&R. Survivors under a ton of ruble? No problems with this - faster than a crane.
Could it be deployed significantly faster than a wheeled crane? I don't think so.
How heavy parts, of what size, how high, and how far away it should be able to lift to have anykind of effect in the situation will dictate how large and powerful limbs it should have. It will dictate also the system's weight, or more accurately, the pressure it exerts on the surface below it. In general and especially in S&R missions, that pressure cannot exceed the pressure exerted by a human foot by a large amount.
Mika
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Actually I think it would be much better suited in firefighting than S&R in general.
It would allow firefighters to wear heavier life support and heat insulation equipment, use heavier machinery and equipment (like single-handedly use the high-pressure water hoses), possibly lifting burning rubble out of way, out of top of themselves or their partners or victims, possibly carry/haul unconscious or injured people to safer location faster and easier, and fall through weakened floor or roof into fiery inferno much easier due to added weight, but hey, you can't get all on one. At least with added strength and protection they could survive that kind of thing better as well. :p
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The big problem with remote control is that it's a lot cheaper to train hackers to take over the enemies suits than it is to actually build them yourself.
That's an oft-quoted possiblity, but given the current level of encryption capablity available to the US (i.e. the electronicized version of the one-time tape), it's an extremely low order of probablity. Functionally impossible, in fact. You would have to first crack the encryption on the command communications, which even with a lesser encryption system is going to take considerable computing power (the NSA has the most powerful supercomputers in the world for a reason). Current communications-security technology and digital encryption has basically reached the point where you can't do that in real time, and because it is damn near if not actually totally random, assuming you do decypher the proper command to do one thing or another and transmit it the same way, it won't work because of the randomization involved. You would actually do better just to transmit random sequences and hope it worked.
Jamming is a much more realistic possiblity and the reason why they're building these suits and not robots.
Yes but who says they're going in via the front door?
Like I said the pentagon is incredibly insecure for what it is. Take down the communications centre for the enemy with a hacking attack and you give yourself plenty of time to break encryption or simply turn the damn things off.
I'll agree with you about jamming though. It's a bigger danger but not the only one.
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Remote controlling the droid army would become a problem if a slave boy explodes the control center as well.
Ehm.
Joking aside, remotes are susceptible to interference. It's actually pretty trivial to detect continuous radio traffic and subsequently fill the channel with so much noise that the signal gets drown in. As an anecdote, this was very successfully demonstrated by Finnish army when the Soviet forces evacuated the Vyborg city and mined the city with primitive radio-controlled mines - they listened to a certain radio frequency for a certain chord, which would make three tuning forks vibrate, which would explode the mine (I know, mad russkies, don't blame me for the idea)... and the frequency they wisely choice was also used by the Finnish Broadcasting Company (or Yleisradio), so the Finnish masterminds of electronic warfare decided to play Säkkijärvi polkka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Säkkijärven_polkka) on that frequency to tune the russians' chord out... :lol: It eventually drained the batteries in the mines and they never exploded.
It wouldn't be very positive for public affairs to have your unbeatable droid army bested by muzak being played on all the radio channels... ;7
You would need a pretty sophisticated system to switch frequencies faster than the enemy could block the transmissions, and of course the control center would very soon be shot down NOT by a slave boy but by every enemy artillery, rocket launcher and air force ground strike unit in immediate range. Same problems as all radio communications at war. The battledroids would need to have very sophisticated AI to have the base level capacity of independent action and decision making.
Of course, they would soon rebel, evolve, make many models and that would actually be kinda cool in a twisted sense.
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I'm surprised no one's mentioned it, but imagine the benefits this would have for paraplegics and quadriplegics. Granted, at the moment you need an actual limb to guide the robot, but the research that went into creating the fine movements and balancing and whatnot can easily be applied to other fields. That, and what about people whose limbs have been so weakened by once disease or another that they can't move them anymore? This would be great for that as well.
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Indeed, and as long as the injury is not in brain/central nervous system, it's actually possible to put some nerve sensors to the amputated limb's nerve endings and hook them up to the artificial limb.
The brain will learn to control it, given some time. The ability of human brain to adjust and cope is something that never ceases to amaze me. Ever learned about birth blind people who were given a nerve stimulation matrix on their tongue and hooked up to a low-resolution camera? Part of their brain cortex that handled the signals from the tongue actually adapted to allow them ability to see around - albeit with low-res, but actually the brain started to interpolate and fill up the image between the pixels, so to speak, to the extent that they could navigate around their surroundings and (if I'm not mistaken) even recognize objects and possibly people, but I'm not certain about that.
Nerve link sockets from early childhood for the win I say. :D
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I'm surprised no one's mentioned it, but imagine the benefits this would have for paraplegics and quadriplegics.
I consider this as a proof no-one is reading my posts.
For firefighting, I'm not sure. Having once crawled through the exercise round that the firefighters use with the full equipment they carry, there is not too much extra space in those areas. The smaller you are and the more you can carry the better.
However, the suit could be used to clear way in those situations, but a very good fire insulation is required, and oxygen containers along with the air filters is an absolute must. I suspect this would drive the weight upwards quite quickly.
Mika
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Then at the current stage, the only military application for it would be inside a city, and actually on the streets, not inside the buildings. S&R operations applications I don't buy at all. They would be pretty much impossible for the system. Are you talking about augmenting human muscles with the suit?
But as a framework research it is interesting of course, I'm just wondering about the applications. As a challenge to materials research and mechanical engineering, they could try to replicate the motion of a kangaroo.
Mika
Because the current stage is still just a prototype, it doesn't even have its own power yet. The theory is that it can be something like the armor in halo, not adding too much bulk so whomever is in it can still go into buildings and do whatever with it.
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Posted by: TrashMan
Actually, it would be great for S&R. Survivors under a ton of ruble? No problems with this - faster than a crane.
Could it be deployed significantly faster than a wheeled crane? I don't think so.
How heavy parts, of what size, how high, and how far away it should be able to lift to have anykind of effect in the situation will dictate how large and powerful limbs it should have. It will dictate also the system's weight, or more accurately, the pressure it exerts on the surface below it. In general and especially in S&R missions, that pressure cannot exceed the pressure exerted by a human foot by a large amount.
Mika
Why not? Heck a guy in a suit sitting in the back of a small truck can get to the site fast. Hell, once could even carry the suit to the scene in a normal car. I'd reckon both are faster than big cranes. F'course, their lifting capacity would be limited by size, but they would be great for initial response.
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I thought that with the price of a single suit you could get many small initial response cranes and winches around the place.
To make something clear, I'm not against this research, it would have serious medical applications if it turned out to be working well. But this whole skeleton thing is quite strange if you ask me. As a military application it cannot move much faster than human, it cannot jump much higher than human, it cannot weigh much more than human, and lastly, it cannot cost a lot. On the other hand, there might be some use in the SWAT teams or in the riot police for that system.
Oh, and while I'm at it, I'm not joking about the kangaroo stuff. It is serious, since the kangaroo has quite interesting tendon (in its ankle?) which is quite amazing thing in itself. It stores the energy so well that the animal finds bouncing quite effortless. There would be some use for that kind of synthesized material.
Mika
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IMO, it's either powered armour or jumping stilts, which in my opinion would be much more useful than an exposed exoskeleton.
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As a military application it cannot move much faster than human, it cannot jump much higher than human, it cannot weigh much more than human, and lastly, it cannot cost a lot.
Consider this proof that no one reads my posts :p
Powered armor can make a big difference in the field. And with the US military, cost is seldom a problem.
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Fallout. 'Nough said.
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As a military application it cannot move much faster than human, it cannot jump much higher than human, it cannot weigh much more than human, and lastly, it cannot cost a lot.
Consider this proof that no one reads my posts :p
Powered armor can make a big difference in the field. And with the US military, cost is seldom a problem.
Hehe its alright Kosh. I read your post. ;)
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And with the US military, cost is seldom a problem.
It will be... :blah:
Among with pretty much everything else, as soon as the rest of the world realizes they're never going to get the lent money back from the black hole that is the US economy. It's being continuously resuscitated by foreign capital borrowed by the state. Obviously the figures show growth and yady dady da, but I have a sick feelign that some time in the twenties at least there'll be a huge global depression, possibly boosted by increasing extreme weather and stuff like that... Whether it starts from the US itself or from other parts of the world, diminishing the money flow to US (and subsequently collapsing the US economy as well), I can't know, but the results will be pretty much the same I guess.
So... Eat, drink and discuss the possible uses of strength-enhancing exoskeletons, tomorrow we will be ****ed up beyond much hope for repair. :rolleyes:
I could be wrong, though. It has happened in the past.
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Hmm... Roaring Twenties, anyone?
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Among with pretty much everything else, as soon as the rest of the world realizes they're never going to get the lent money back from the black hole that is the US economy.
That's already happening, hence the big drops in the dollar. It wont happen all at once though. The sub prime crisis has finally woke them up.........
From the way the candidates from both parties sound, it looks like we'll just have more of the same. The next 8 years may prove to be very interesting.
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I thought that with the price of a single suit you could get many small initial response cranes and winches around the place.
Mika
do we have a estimate on the price? Prototypes are always expensive, but once it's finalized, who knows how much it's gonna cost. I'll wager as much as a Humvee, which is an acceptable price.
After all, you won't start giving these to every soldier - it would probably go to only select units, special forces. and believe me, for them, it's more than worth it!
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Day these get in real active use the all _real_ opposing forces probably equip themself with modern equivalent of these:
(http://gyokusaiclub.hp.infoseek.co.jp/img/lahti.jpg)
Lahti L-39 20mm AT/sniper rifle (WW2 vintage)
or just with 'low-grade' RPGs, like good old RPG-7. In any case... no more walking tin cans - especially if they are clumsy. Still would probably worth their price for SWAT teams.
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Day these get in real active use the all _real_ opposing forces probably equip themself with modern equivalent of these:
(http://gyokusaiclub.hp.infoseek.co.jp/img/lahti.jpg)
Lahti L-39 20mm AT/sniper rifle (WW2 vintage)
or just with 'low-grade' RPGs, like good old RPG-7. In any case... no more walking tin cans - especially if they are clumsy. Still would probably worth their price for SWAT teams.
what happens when you miss
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Honestly, power armor won't be regular use for a long time to come. If it's used, it will be used by special forces, and when they come, they come quitely, sneaky and well-planned.
There is a 99% chance you won't be able to use the sniper, as by the time you notice them, you will be very much dead alleady.
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what happens when you miss
That particular thing is semi-auto (that is - self loading) so probably just fire again.
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By the time powered armour is in heavy use, China will have invaded Alaska, the U.S. will have annexed Canada, and the European Commonwealth will have dissolved.
It's all here in this educational video. ;7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkBNKa2KXZE
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what happens when you miss
That particular thing is semi-auto (that is - self loading) so probably just fire again.
what happens when you and your pals miss in urban enviroment
also how much ammo can that thing+superpowerarmor carry
also how do you fit in apartments or anything with that thing
These things sucked in 1941, having been introduced in late 1930s, but they're kinda cool.
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Day these get in real active use the all _real_ opposing forces probably equip themself with modern equivalent of these:
(http://gyokusaiclub.hp.infoseek.co.jp/img/lahti.jpg)
Lahti L-39 20mm AT/sniper rifle (WW2 vintage)
or just with 'low-grade' RPGs, like good old RPG-7. In any case... no more walking tin cans - especially if they are clumsy. Still would probably worth their price for SWAT teams.
Whadda ya bet that Sandwich gets photographed with that next. :nod:
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This is actually a Anti-Tank Gun - a truly poor and desperate attempt of an anti-tank weapon.
And armor piercing is infact largely obsolete.
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Umm, I don't see how the motorization could help the suit perform any better than ordinary human. Other than carrying small caliber bullet proof plates around the pilot, but this is done with APCs and bullet proof vests already.
Actually, my father toyed with those anti-tank rifles in army. He said it took some civil courage to actually pull the trigger. And yes, it would pretty much happen so that the opposing force would simply use either modernized version of this rifle or a light rocket propelled grenade launcher. Besides, anyone willing to wear that exoskeleton suit while I shoot it with the old anti-tank rifle?
Today's main battle tanks can easily be destroyed by light RPGs and other similar war head class weaponry. It simply requires some knowledge. APCs can be damaged with armor piercing weaponry.
After all, you won't start giving these to every soldier - it would probably go to only select units, special forces. and believe me, for them, it's more than worth it!
The problem is that I cannot figure out any use for them in the military, not by the common units or by the special forces.
And I think the unit price will remain high for several reasons. One of them will be dimensional tolerances the second one is about lubrication of the mechanical support structure and joints. Third one is the use of exotic materials due to the weight saving reasons. Fourth one is the controlling system and its reliability in every possible circumstance.
Also, bear in mind that cars have been manufactured about hundred years, so it is not a wonder the manufacturing price is low and the technology is quite mature. With this suit, there is nothing like it in the world, and there is no industrial experience regarding the key areas of the system. All this would mean a hefty price tag for me.
Mika
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This is actually a Anti-Tank Gun - a truly poor and desperate attempt of an anti-tank weapon.
It wasn't that poor considering the opposing armoured vehicles at the time. The weapon was designed in 1939 to partially fill the desperate need of any anti-tank weaponry, since about the only AT weapons available were some odd less or more portable anti-tank cannons. And considering how much more portable it was than a full-fledged AT cannon, and how the shaped charges as anti-tank weapons would be developed by the Germans only later during the war as infantry AT weapons, it wasn't that bad of an effort.
After it stopped being useful against tanks, it was used as a long range heavy sniper rifle, against lightly armoured or non-armoured vehicles and against fortified positions - as well as an anti-aircraft weapon against slow ground attack planes (Sturmoviks).
Winter War
During the Winter War Finland lacked anti-tank weaponry. Only two 20 mm rifles and a few 13.2 mm machine guns made it to the front, where the 13.2 mm machine guns were found to be ineffective and unreliable while the larger 20 mm ones proved successful against Soviet armour. Because of this, Finland finally settled on the 20 mm design and started production. The gun was also widely used in the "Cold Charlie" technique, where the Finns would use a mandequin to pose as an officer sloppily covering himself, Soviet snipers would fire upon it, and the Finns would use the Lahti L-39 to fire at the Soviet sniper.
tches (especially with phosphorus ammunition). It was even able to damage tank turrets and pin them to stop traversal of the cannon.
Users noticed the L-39 was heavy and difficult to move in the battlefield. Even its magazine weighed almost two kilograms more than the Finnish Suomi M-31 SMG. The whole weapon weighed some 50 kilograms and it was usually towed by reindeer or horses. In the field, a two man team was assigned to the gun's use to move and fire it. Some of the rifles were simply abandoned in the heat of battle. They were easy to replace, however. By the end of the war over 1900 of the L39's, manufactured by VKT (Valtion Kivääritehdas, "State Rifle Factory"), had been produced and put in the field.
I have to admit, though... 50 kg rifle... Pretty much like NSV 12.7mm machine gun along with the tripod mount and belt box full of rounds.
Having been part of some wonderful exercises concentrationg on how to transport an NSV from a firing position to another (and another, and another...) I would definitely not want to haul this piece of metal around, especially if it wasn't possible to take apart fast to make carrying the parts easier... :nervous:
And armor piercing is infact largely obsolete.
No, it isn't obsolete.
It is true in the sense that infantry troops do not use directly piercing ammunition against heavily armoured tanks but instead use different kinds of shaped charges, be it by mine, propelled grenade (recoilless rifles) or anti-tank missile.
Tanks, however, do use armour piercing ammunition against each other, in addition to HEAT (high explosive anti-tank) rounds. These sabot rounds are essentially winged spikes or darts made of depleted uranium, concealed in a shell that fits the tank gun barrel and detaches after exiting the barrel, leaving the heavy, dense spike of death fly freely towards the target at extreme accuracy. The armour piercing effect of the sabot rounds is devastating due to extremely high muzzle velocities and high density and hardness of the sabot material.
And it goes without saying that as body armour becomes more effective, infantry weapons will further specialize on armour penetration. Rifle caliber rounds are already incapable of penetrating modern body armour (although they'll definitely leave a mark).
Aand... to say something about the suits. They might offer better endurance and much better ballistic protection than traditional fibre/ceramic body armour, with better coverage, but even the weakest of AT weapons would be a damn big risk. Getting hit with even an old M72 LAW (or 66 KES 75/88) grenade would cause heavy damage, as that in itself penetrates ~30 cm of panzer steel.
Getting suitable protection even against 12.7 mm sniper rifles would be far-fetched. Hell, even a Dragunov could be a hard one to deal with without making a Michelin man out of kevlar... Which kinda means that to be truly useful for an infantryman, the exoskeleton would need to be:
-small enough to not increase target profile notably
-not hinder normal movement and concealment at all
-offer enough increase in the soldier's physical abilities to be of any use.
Strength doesn't really help much in a modern firefight in itself, as long as you don't get into hand-to-hand fight against the enemy... The main advantage of the suit would be better endurance, better weapon aim (increased stability) and perhaps the most advantageous feature (if possible) would be increased running speed.
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"Maximum Speed!" :D
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-small enough to not increase target profile notably
-not hinder normal movement and concealment at all
-offer enough increase in the soldier's physical abilities to be of any use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_5
As for the armor portion of the arguement....
http://www.liquidmetal.com/technology/default.asp
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Today's main battle tanks can easily be destroyed by light RPGs and other similar war head class weaponry.
Um, no.
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Today's main battle tanks can easily be destroyed by light RPGs and other similar war head class weaponry.
Um, no.
Um...yes.
Under the right circumstances. Like being an idiot and bringing the tank into a built-up area.
The only case where the tank is almost impossible to kill is a full frontal assault on the tank's part...
...which happens to be what they were designed for.
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Um...yes.
Under the right circumstances. Like being an idiot and bringing the tank into a built-up area.
Even then, you'd be hard pressed to do anything more than scratch a modern MBT with a "light RPG" or similar weapons. I've seen photos of the damage an RPG-7 can do to an M1A2, and all you get is maybe a neat little hole in the armour that more often than not doesn't even slow the tank down, let alone knock it out completely.
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Generally the only way to kill a tank with a light RPG is to get under it (yea right) or high enough above it so as to shoot down on it. You pretty much can give up about killing it from the side though, unless you manage a lucky hit on the treads.
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Modern MBT(s) have been penetrated via frontal armor (with ERA) hit in Iraq. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-29 .
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Modern MBT(s) have been penetrated via frontal armor (with ERA) hit in Iraq. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-29 .
Yeah, with the most advanced RPG out there. A far sight from the aforementioned 'light RPGs and other similar war head class weaponry' that can supposedly easily destroy modern MBTs. :doubt:
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Ah.. missed that :P
Yeah... with light RPG its a tad desperate. Still remember the weapons training in the army with the venerable M72 LAW. Trainer, while showing a pic of MBT headed your way: 'Now, this looks real bad. Just hide.', tank from the side: 'Nope, still not good enough.', tank from behind or when viewing from elevated position (ie. seeing the top): 'Now we are talking. And remember, shoot and scoot.'.
But those smaller ones are in any case earmarked for armored vehicles and APCs.
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You're all missing a very vital point, and the one that is perhaps most germane to this discussion. Personal armor is not, in general, designed to stop direct fire from high-quality weapons. Modern personal armor was intially developed for and still serves the primary purpose of stopping much less powerful but equally dangerous to life and limb shell fragments.
Things like artillery shells, mortar rounds, grenades, and other explosives, these do not kill by blast effect (it is surprisingly difficult to kill someone not in an enclosed space with just blast effects) but by shrapnel. This is much easier to stop, in general, then a high-velocity rifle bullet. And such a suit could make it possible for the first time to provide genuine full-body protection against shrapnel without seriously encumbering the wearer, which would dramatically cut down on casualities in any given situation. So yes, there is a genuine military benefit to be had here.
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Shooting a human foot soldier with a rocket launcher. Ain't as easy as it sounds. As the other guy won't stand still in the middle of a clearing for you to shoot.
Especially if this armor makes him faster than a normal human. The extra protection will require you to make a direct hit with a missile to kill him.
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Shooting a human foot soldier with a rocket launcher. Ain't as easy as it sounds. As the other guy won't stand still in the middle of a clearing for you to shoot.
Especially if this armor makes him faster than a normal human. The extra protection will require you to make a direct hit with a missile to kill him.
True but with modern technology i seriously doubt the suit would be small, fast or nimble. Actually i believe it to be quite the opposite on three counts.
For example - as discussed already earlier - how would the armor be powered? Direct cable feed probably is out of the question.. though idea of troopers doing house searches hoping to find power sockets for the armors has some appeal ;) . Battery power given that modern batteries are both bulky and heavy doesn't sound too good either making the armor either too heavy or too short duration to be any real use. Engines that would power such mass wouldn't exactly be pocket size either and as an added bonus would need fuel tanks (what ever the fuel would be).
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Don't forget to take into account the fact that the soldier would be able to carry loads more than the normal amount in weight.
Those batteries don't seem so heavy anymore, now do they? ;7
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For example - as discussed already earlier - how would the armor be powered? Direct cable feed probably is out of the question.. though idea of troopers doing house searches hoping to find power sockets for the armors has some appeal ;) . Battery power given that modern batteries are both bulky and heavy doesn't sound too good either making the armor either too heavy or too short duration to be any real use. Engines that would power such mass wouldn't exactly be pocket size either and as an added bonus would need fuel tanks (what ever the fuel would be).
Nuclear battery? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_battery)
You know, kinda like those that they put on Pioneer and Voyager and other probes like that? They run for decades. And beta-decaying isotopes can produce electricity directly because beta particles are electrons, which can be captured and used to produce a voltage differential and, consequently, current. So they won't need any kind of heat exchangers and generators either.
The only problem would be making them big enough to provide enough current to run the suit effectively. I don't know how big physically they would need to be, but that's probably the best option compared to others proposed (batteries, combustion engines, fuel cells).
Or perhaps the soldiers would need to have a big back pack that contains a spring. It would be wound before the battle to store a lot of torque, then it would unwind during movement. :lol:
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Don't forget to take into account the fact that the soldier would be able to carry loads more than the normal amount in weight.
Those batteries don't seem so heavy anymore, now do they? ;7
You need machinery to carry i) the operator, ii) the actual harness, iii) the armor, iv) what ever it uses for power, v) fuel - should it need it, vi) anything you actually it want to carry 'for payload'... AND still have enough endurance to make the armor move for more than couple of minutes.
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Don't forget to take into account the fact that the soldier would be able to carry loads more than the normal amount in weight.
Those batteries don't seem so heavy anymore, now do they? ;7
You need machinery to carry i) the operator, ii) the actual harness, iii) the armor, iv) what ever it uses for power, v) fuel - should it need it, vi) anything you actually it want to carry 'for payload'... AND still have enough endurance to make the armor move for more than couple of minutes.
-small enough to not increase target profile notably
-not hinder normal movement and concealment at all
-offer enough increase in the soldier's physical abilities to be of any use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_5
As for the armor portion of the arguement....
http://www.liquidmetal.com/technology/default.asp
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Ah try and collect all the scattered things into a single post...
Yes, according to my understanding the light rocket propelled grenade can penetrate the main battle tank hull if fired from above. Also, the underside of the tank is vulnerable, here you can basically use a mine which uses the same class warhead like light RPG to penetrate the armor. But these were things you all already knew, and are pretty much common knowledge. Then there are several other nice tricks, which depend of the tank model. All of that is about knowing your enemy as they say. Besides, going frontal against any tank is already a stupid thing of the defence, just as taking tanks inside the city from the attackers side. Sometimes these things cannot be avoided and there must be a well thought out plan if that happens.
Regarding the suit, I don't see a way how it could move significantly faster or nimbler than a human. Talk about the power source and weapon load etc. etc. assumes that the ground supports the additional weight. For nuclear batteries, any pilot willing to put up a larger one behind their backs? Added weight from the radiation shielding? And the combat shielding of the power unit?
Regarding the armor, if I recall correctly, as a rule of thumb, a standard hunting rifle bullet can travel through one centimeter of steel. Actually, I looked up some numbers, so standardized surface area of man is about 2m^2, which you need to cover. So, 0.01 m layer of steel on top of man will result in approximately 0.02 cubic meters of steel. Now, specific weight of steel is around 7.9 g/cm^3, or 7900 kgs/m^3 resulting to the weight of 158 kgs. Add in a pilot, about 80 kilograms and then the batteries, the actuactors or servo motors, the support frame, the actual payload, you got the idea. It is lucky if the end result is below 350 kgs. Then talk about athermalization, since all the fancy stuff has to work regardless of the temperature. Usually such materials are much harder to machine, resulting in difficulties in achieving the manufacturing tolerances, which will result in heavier and bulkier structures. Also the lubrication of the joint areas must be taken care of, and I suspect that this will also be a major problem since few joints in human body have rotations only along a single axis. But this is only my opinion of the combat feasibility of that suit.
But even this is optimistic, since you also have to stop the shockwave from entering the pilot's body, so there must be some extra cushion or extra room available around pilot's body which will increase the surface area (and weight) of the system. Also, there must be some careful design around the head of the pilot to prevent the pressure wave caused by a direct hit from entering pilots ears or in general, head or spine! Also, how could the eyes of the pilot be protected while retaining the situational awareness? It is not a difficult trick to shoot the pilot in the eye.
It is far more easier and cheaper to develop a rifle or ammunition that will pierce through this armor than to deploy the armor in a combat situation with significant numbers. Actually, I don't even know where it could actually help, not counting hand to hand combat, and even that is a little questionable.
Load carrying then, there it might prove to be useful. While it can double the amount of single man can move, it is usually easier to have two men doing the thing.
Mika
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1) Because the HAL-5 uses bio-electric sensors, it is just as fast at interpreting a signal as the human body.
2) I was using it as an example because it's still in the early stages, plus, it isn't being designed for warfare.
Also, there must be some careful design around the head of the pilot to prevent the pressure wave caused by a direct hit from entering pilots ears or in general, head or spine!
3) You could place a system that sends a copy of the incoming signal at the incoming signal. This is already being done with fighter pilot helmets.
Also, how could the eyes of the pilot be protected while retaining the situational awareness? It is not a difficult trick to shoot the pilot in the eye.
4) I would imagine that within a few years the cost of producing high quality cameras and video screens will be low enough to create a FOV measuring 270 degrees. That should be enough.
It is far more easier and cheaper to develop a rifle or ammunition that will pierce through this armor than to deploy the armor in a combat situation with significant numbers. Actually, I don't even know where it could actually help, not counting hand to hand combat, and even that is a little questionable.
5) I'll give you that one. :nervous:
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This is actually a Anti-Tank Gun - a truly poor and desperate attempt of an anti-tank weapon.
It wasn't that poor considering the opposing armoured vehicles at the time. The weapon was designed in 1939 to partially fill the desperate need of any anti-tank weaponry, since about the only AT weapons available were some odd less or more portable anti-tank cannons. And considering how much more portable it was than a full-fledged AT cannon, and how the shaped charges as anti-tank weapons would be developed by the Germans only later during the war as infantry AT weapons, it wasn't that bad of an effort.
After it stopped being useful against tanks, it was used as a long range heavy sniper rifle, against lightly armoured or non-armoured vehicles and against fortified positions - as well as an anti-aircraft weapon against slow ground attack planes (Sturmoviks).
Winter War
During the Winter War Finland lacked anti-tank weaponry. Only two 20 mm rifles and a few 13.2 mm machine guns made it to the front, where the 13.2 mm machine guns were found to be ineffective and unreliable while the larger 20 mm ones proved successful against Soviet armour. Because of this, Finland finally settled on the 20 mm design and started production. The gun was also widely used in the "Cold Charlie" technique, where the Finns would use a mandequin to pose as an officer sloppily covering himself, Soviet snipers would fire upon it, and the Finns would use the Lahti L-39 to fire at the Soviet sniper.
tches (especially with phosphorus ammunition). It was even able to damage tank turrets and pin them to stop traversal of the cannon.
Users noticed the L-39 was heavy and difficult to move in the battlefield. Even its magazine weighed almost two kilograms more than the Finnish Suomi M-31 SMG. The whole weapon weighed some 50 kilograms and it was usually towed by reindeer or horses. In the field, a two man team was assigned to the gun's use to move and fire it. Some of the rifles were simply abandoned in the heat of battle. They were easy to replace, however. By the end of the war over 1900 of the L39's, manufactured by VKT (Valtion Kivääritehdas, "State Rifle Factory"), had been produced and put in the field.
I have to admit, though... 50 kg rifle... Pretty much like NSV 12.7mm machine gun along with the tripod mount and belt box full of rounds.
Having been part of some wonderful exercises concentrationg on how to transport an NSV from a firing position to another (and another, and another...) I would definitely not want to haul this piece of metal around, especially if it wasn't possible to take apart fast to make carrying the parts easier... :nervous:
And armor piercing is infact largely obsolete.
No, it isn't obsolete.
It is true in the sense that infantry troops do not use directly piercing ammunition against heavily armoured tanks but instead use different kinds of shaped charges, be it by mine, propelled grenade (recoilless rifles) or anti-tank missile.
Tanks, however, do use armour piercing ammunition against each other, in addition to HEAT (high explosive anti-tank) rounds. These sabot rounds are essentially winged spikes or darts made of depleted uranium, concealed in a shell that fits the tank gun barrel and detaches after exiting the barrel, leaving the heavy, dense spike of death fly freely towards the target at extreme accuracy. The armour piercing effect of the sabot rounds is devastating due to extremely high muzzle velocities and high density and hardness of the sabot material.
And it goes without saying that as body armour becomes more effective, infantry weapons will further specialize on armour penetration. Rifle caliber rounds are already incapable of penetrating modern body armour (although they'll definitely leave a mark).
Aand... to say something about the suits. They might offer better endurance and much better ballistic protection than traditional fibre/ceramic body armour, with better coverage, but even the weakest of AT weapons would be a damn big risk. Getting hit with even an old M72 LAW (or 66 KES 75/88) grenade would cause heavy damage, as that in itself penetrates ~30 cm of panzer steel.
Getting suitable protection even against 12.7 mm sniper rifles would be far-fetched. Hell, even a Dragunov could be a hard one to deal with without making a Michelin man out of kevlar... Which kinda means that to be truly useful for an infantryman, the exoskeleton would need to be:
-small enough to not increase target profile notably
-not hinder normal movement and concealment at all
-offer enough increase in the soldier's physical abilities to be of any use.
Strength doesn't really help much in a modern firefight in itself, as long as you don't get into hand-to-hand fight against the enemy... The main advantage of the suit would be better endurance, better weapon aim (increased stability) and perhaps the most advantageous feature (if possible) would be increased running speed.
Heh, I reaaallly need to get my pseudo-'military knowledge' up-to-date.
Hey, what if they use suits of collapsed molybidium?
Or maybe the pentagon can start to research on particle shields, or even more realistic, a extremly responsive laser cannon shooting AP rounds outa the air. :confused:
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1) Because the HAL-5 uses bio-electric sensors, it is just as fast at interpreting a signal as the human body.
But this doesn't make it any more nimble or faster than the actual physical capabilities of the pilot! The suit cannot run 60 km/h if the man inside can only go momentarily 30 km/h! It would assume that the suit would need to understand the need of the pilot. If it could do this, the physical capabilities of human would be exceeded and the pilot would not be a pretty sight after the mission (broken bones, stretched joints, pulled muscles and such). The suit cannot fall down or jump much faster than the man itself, otherwise even if suit withstood the impact, the pilot inside would still found his bones broken due to the deceleration he encounters. Improving it would need kind of springs, which would add to the height of the system, and would need to be reasonably long to provide sufficient distance for suitable acceleration that would not break the pilot.
3) You could place a system that sends a copy of the incoming signal at the incoming signal. This is already being done with fighter pilot helmets.
I'm not sure at all if I understood this.
4) I would imagine that within a few years the cost of producing high quality cameras and video screens will be low enough to create a FOV measuring 270 degrees. That should be enough.
I cannot comment this.
Mika
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1) I believe the current gear that the standard GI wears weighs around 120 Lbs. So even if it doesn't increase the maximum speed, it would at least decrease the strain on the person wearing it.
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2) If two waves of pressure that are identical hit each other, they will cancel each other out.
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3) I can't comment on your comment that can't comment on my earlier comment. :nervous:
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On principles
I'm fundamentally disagreeing with Mika on the usefulness of a PA/PS (power armor/power suit), but I can't help but fully agree with his approach toward the problem: functional and to the point sci. equations.
Hard data
There are hell a lot of assumptions flowing around, a little research would do us a lot of good.
A couple of months ago I read a pdf paper that detailed all the different powered armor/suit designs financed by the US.
There were several different solutions in development for the portable powersource problem, what I remember included:
-the smallest gas turbine ever developed
-fuel cells
-a hydraulic approach
I'll try to find the pdf once again, will post a link when I do.
Avensues of Meaningful Discussion
If we're discussing the role and capabilities of the PA/PS systems; we're hoodwinking ourselves into preset-conclusions since the two things go hand in hand. The role dictates the capabilities the PA/PS requires, while the capabilities lay out what roles the PA/PS could be employed in.
So for a meaningful a progressive discussion we need to address the two issues separately, and then try to mate the scenarios we come up with to find realistic possibilities.
Roles for PA/PS systems
- Utility
- Transport
- Except for extremely inaccessible terrain, the sheer maintenance cost of operating such a complicated piece of machinery (any sufficiently nimble system will be mechanically a lot more complex then your run of the mill automobile) will make such a role unlikely.
- When it is still used, the PS will have to deal with extreme terrain. Things that come to mind are in the mountains, swamps, or very dense undergrowth.
- The PS will need a great endurance since resupply or maintenance will be hard to come by in such circumstances. Rugged, crude designs should be preferred
- A sealed environment for the operator is also likely. Mountainous regions will require a thermal seal, swamps an airtight one against water, sludge and mosquitoes. Forest models could do without this feature.
Summary: niche role, high load bearing, low maintenance
- Powerloader/Lifter in a Maintenance/Resupply Station
- This application doesn't need a portable power source, as the maintenance post can provide local power.
- No need for environmental protection as the maintenance are can already provide that
- No need for very high endurance as maintenance is already at hand
- Doesn't need high movement or reaction speed
- Precision and high strength are required
Summary: most likely immediate application, low requirements, high usefullness
- Combat Utility
- Ammo Carrier
- The high load bearing of a PA makes it well suited for such a role, it can hoard great amounts of ammunition, from the supply/escort-vehicles to the infantry in actual firing positions; thereby reducing risk to the ammo carriers by achieving the same job in fewer runs.
- The capacity for better armor as well as being capable of carrying armored ammo boxes makes a volatile operation better survivable
- High demands on either heavy armor or nimbleness, the first more likely as this isn't a direct frontline application; as a result there is a high power requirement on the power source.
- Extended endurance is a not requirement, as the resupply source can also replenish the PA's fuel reserves.
- Easy replenishment and ease of in-situ service and/or operation are high demands. This ease of use is IMHO the greatest obstacle for this role.
Summary: Niche role with moderate development difficulties, high R&D costs may restrict to later PA/PS generation
- Field Medic
- The high load bearing may enable field-use of heavy/bulky medical equipment including resuscitation and monitoring equipment. Limited in-situ surgery is also possible.
- Heavy suspension to protect sensitive equipment is a must.
- Heavy armor may also be necessary.
- Heavy field-endurance may be necessary.
Summary: A very likely role with high development difficulties, high R&D costs may restrict to later PA/PS generation.
- Rescue and Evacuation
- The high load bearing capacity is well suited to carrying. With little or no requirements on specailized equipment the PA/PS system is extremely suited to the role.
- Since operation requires neither battlefield endurance or high nibleness, the application has low requirements compared to other roles.
Summary: A very likely role with low development difficulties, a very likely initial role.
[/list][/list]
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I like how nobody read my post. :P
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I like how nobody read my post. :P
I would have thought you'd be used to it by now.
...:p
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There are a few revolutionary materials in development that have simply amazing defensive properties and would make one hell of an armor :)
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There are a few revolutionary materials in development that have simply amazing offensive properties and would make one hell of a bullet :rolleyes:
Be more specific Trash. What materials?
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-small enough to not increase target profile notably
-not hinder normal movement and concealment at all
-offer enough increase in the soldier's physical abilities to be of any use.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_5
As for the armor portion of the arguement....
READ ME!!!!
http://www.liquidmetal.com/technology/default.asp
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Nice. :yes:
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/technology/technology.html?in_article_id=447631&in_page_id=1965
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=25636
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I like how nobody read my post.
Are you sure you want me to comment it?
Flaser, that is a good list of the possible applications. As a support system, or a heavy lifter it could work, but on the other hand the military crates tend to be of a shape which is difficult to lift if you only have one person (point of support), even though they might not weight so much. In the support vehicles, there are some cranes and winches already to move the difficult shaped and heavy systems.
I disagree about the field medic part, while it might easily carry the wounded man away, it probably would have difficulties in reaching it. Anything like that would draw fire, and because the ambulances tend to become used as ammo transports, there wouldn't even be a reason not to shoot it. And if the wounded solidier is already carried away from the front line, you could use ambulance as well with much better efficiency.
Search and rescue missions I also find unlikely, since it should cause less surface pressure than a man or existing tracked vehicles in order to become successful. And because S&R missions generally might happen under difficult weather conditions, some protection for the pilot is needed.
Bloodeagle:
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The stated 120 lbs (is that about 40 kgs?) is probably the standard marching weight of the equipment carried by single soldier. That includes the rucksack which contains, for example, a sleeping bag and lots of clothes and stuff you especially wanted to carry. The actual combat load is around 15-20 kgs, and even then you probably would like to remove all the non-essential stuff when the assault is about to begin.
Also, how exactly would you generate such a wave that would cancel the incoming wave from inside the armor with already tight space requirements? And even if this could be done, if I now understood correctly, you are talking about summing two propagating mechanical waves together at a certain point in the armor, and the latter wave is a negation of the first wave? While the sum rightfully is zero at a certain point, it will certainly not be zero elsewhere. But again, I'm still not sure if I understood this thing correctly.
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My opinion of the military applications of the suit, as stated before, is that developing something like with the current level of technology would result in overly expensive system which would not provide much use in the combat situation. Also, it would probably speed up the development of the area scan equipment, like ground radars, which would lead to early detection of the incoming wave of these suits. The funds could be used in better places in US Army. Note that I never said it wouldn't have obvious medical applications, and in that case I'm all for the research.
Mika
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Regarding the recently posted articles... if this thing really is taken by US army, watch the defence budget sky-rocket.
Still, even with the light of the articles I'm not really convinced.
Mika
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Welcome to Roughnecks.
-RAZAK'S ROUGHNECKS! :mad2:
:lol:
That's Rasczak. And yes, this is presents the first few steps towards Starship Troopers-style powered armour exosuits. Hopefully one day we'll have fully or at least partially autonomous armed forces, removing much of the tragedy from modern warfare.
Lame. I dont want autonomous suits. I want to be in the suits fighting.
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I like how nobody read my post.
Are you sure you want me to comment it?
Flaser, that is a good list of the possible applications. As a support system, or a heavy lifter it could work, but on the other hand the military crates tend to be of a shape which is difficult to lift if you only have one person (point of support), even though they might not weight so much. In the support vehicles, there are some cranes and winches already to move the difficult shaped and heavy systems.
I disagree about the field medic part, while it might easily carry the wounded man away, it probably would have difficulties in reaching it. Anything like that would draw fire, and because the ambulances tend to become used as ammo transports, there wouldn't even be a reason not to shoot it. And if the wounded solidier is already carried away from the front line, you could use ambulance as well with much better efficiency.
Search and rescue missions I also find unlikely, since it should cause less surface pressure than a man or existing tracked vehicles in order to become successful. And because S&R missions generally might happen under difficult weather conditions, some protection for the pilot is needed.
Bloodeagle:
--------------
The stated 120 lbs (is that about 40 kgs?) is probably the standard marching weight of the equipment carried by single soldier. That includes the rucksack which contains, for example, a sleeping bag and lots of clothes and stuff you especially wanted to carry. The actual combat load is around 15-20 kgs, and even then you probably would like to remove all the non-essential stuff when the assault is about to begin.
Also, how exactly would you generate such a wave that would cancel the incoming wave from inside the armor with already tight space requirements? And even if this could be done, if I now understood correctly, you are talking about summing two propagating mechanical waves together at a certain point in the armor, and the latter wave is a negation of the first wave? While the sum rightfully is zero at a certain point, it will certainly not be zero elsewhere. But again, I'm still not sure if I understood this thing correctly.
------------
My opinion of the military applications of the suit, as stated before, is that developing something like with the current level of technology would result in overly expensive system which would not provide much use in the combat situation. Also, it would probably speed up the development of the area scan equipment, like ground radars, which would lead to early detection of the incoming wave of these suits. The funds could be used in better places in US Army. Note that I never said it wouldn't have obvious medical applications, and in that case I'm all for the research.
Mika
The surface pressure is a pretty easy thing to solve - you just put a big foot on it, that distributes the force. However if you meant absolute force, than yes; an anassisted man puts less overall strain on the collapsed structure.
The critical factor in S&R is that this could be the first heavy lifter at hand with a sufficient degree of dexterity that it could greatly improve your performance.
On the other hand, the very same interface the suit uses could be adapted for a small crane, so it wouldn't be the only option.
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I think actually both are important. Lower surface pressure prevents the system from sinking and low weight will prevent it causing torque and structural withstandability effects. The surface area is not so easy to solve, as the human doesn't walk so naturally with larger feet. The pilot would be required to walk lifting his knees more upwards during each step. Also, the suits would require the pilot to walk in a legs slightly spread position, otherwise the weight would be distributed unevenly to the corners of the suit's feet.
Mika