Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Ryan on November 30, 2007, 10:57:21 pm
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The GTVA currently control Alpha centauri, less then 5 LY's from earth, right?
And we have sent TV, radio, and other signals across lightyears, right?
So why not send Messages to and from Earth? Sure, no real-time talking, no real help, but it would tell the people of Earth there families are safe and sound.
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Well, that is the obvious thing to do...and the obvious reason is that it kind of makes the story moot...
But it might not have occured due to the post great war fall-out...on both ends
Postulate:
1) the Inter-system Communication system relies on jump nodes stable enough to travel. As all nodes from Sol are gone, so are those those lines are out. leaving sol with internal subspace comms
2) the destruction of the Lucifer in Sol system, hey it was half way through the node, might have flooded the system with a high level of radiation that rendeners Extreame Long range Radio dead
or someone tried to ring, but no-one was in to pick up the phone and there was no answer machine. :D or they got cut off for not paying theeir bills ;)
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Just a highly unlikely theory, but perhaps humanity had developed beyond the need of radio communication so much, they forgot how to use it. Sort of like with e-mails and how we have no idea how to write letters anymore. :lol: Though I suppose a better analogy is telephone vs. morse code. In a technologically advanced society, we're bound to lose the ability to perform tasks we took for granted.
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Quite frankly, I'm guessing all the chatter going on in FS IS transmitted through radio waves/a radio.
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I think it's just because they have, but ****ing GTVA command classified it all Level HyperOmegaLevel92.1 :P
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I think it's just because they have, but ****ing GTVA command classified it all Level HyperOmegaLevel92.1 :P
:lol:
Level92.999 :nod:
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Quite frankly, I'm guessing all the chatter going on in FS IS transmitted through radio waves/a radio.
It's fairly obvious that comms is FTL. Ships are never out of contact with command no matter where they jump in a system. In fact the only time I remember a ship being out of contact with Command is in Lions Den where they are in a completely different system.
The only other explanation involves Command always moving to be near the player. Which seems rather unlikely.
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I speculate that there are subspace bouys or relay stations at every node that create a small subspace vortex and transmit data normally trough the nodes (sorta like the internet). The ships and the buys themselves again communicate sending radio messages trough subspace in-system.
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I had a similar idea... A kind of "jumping" transmission.
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It kinda makes sense that any FTL communication would probably use hte same method for reaching those speeds as the ships themselves :P
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Perhaps they did try, and got no response. The receivers in Sol would have to be actively looking for a signal.
Or, if the government in Sol had become repressive enough, and the official government line were "everyone outside of Sol is dead", those who tried to contradict that official line with pesky radio evidence would be promptly tossed in jail or an insane asylum.
On the other hand, maybe INFA is right and they were far too busy fighting one another to pay attention.
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Or they were simply looking at Sirius while the GTVA sent the signal from Alpha Centauri :D
If it took either party longer than 4.4 years to build the radio telescope it could easily be that they are looking in the wrong place. :D
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I still think GTVA Command are evil bastards who classified everything.
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Perhaps they did try, and got no response. The receivers in Sol would have to be actively looking for a signal.
Or, if the government in Sol had become repressive enough, and the official government line were "everyone outside of Sol is dead", those who tried to contradict that official line with pesky radio evidence would be promptly tossed in jail or an insane asylum.
On the other hand, maybe INFA is right and they were far too busy fighting one another to pay attention.
I'm pretty sure that Sol would be actively looking for a signal from the rest of the terrans. But I could totally see the leaders of Sol totally going in that totalitarian government route.
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There was a huge discussion on this awhile back actually, look it up for reference if you'd like :)
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And what was the conclusion?
Lemme guess - there was none ;7
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I don't think it's got much relevance to the story in Freespace 2, does it? It'd take years to send a message either way, so it wouldn't be reasonable at all for either the GTVA or the earth to try to exert much control over each other.
GTA: "What's up?"
*Years pass*
Earth: "Not much. You?"
*Years pass*
GTVA: "Nah. Just chillin'."
*Years pass*
Earth: "That's cool. How're things with the Vasudans working out?"
*Years pass*
GTVA: "Just fine, thanks. BRB, Shivans."
*Freespace 2*
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I still think GTVA Command are evil bastards who classified everything.
Any receiver in Alpha Centauri (which is actually a Vasudan system) would pick up all the Law and Order broadcasts, wireless torrents, podcasts, and whatnot from Earth, so there'd be no way to stop someone from finding out. The FS2 techroom suggests that the Sol society destroyed itself after the collapse of the node, which would be why the GTVA was never able to contact them. It says that "all attempts at contacting Earth have failed", implying that the Terrans probably tried everything they could think of, including using 20th century style radio transmissions. The stupidest part is that, if you can build antimatter torpedoes, then you can build a drone that will travel at .5c or so and reach Earth in 10 years, then broadcast back what's going on.
You're not the first one to ask, Ryan. Virtually every subject you can think of pertaining to the FS2 story has been discussed before. The conversation usually finds a conclusion quickly and then turns to spam for want of discussion material. When looked at logically, the FS2 universe makes little sense.
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I don't think it's got much relevance to the story in Freespace 2, does it? It'd take years to send a message either way, so it wouldn't be reasonable at all for either the GTVA or the earth to try to exert much control over each other.
GTA: "What's up?"
*Years pass*
Earth: "Not much. You?"
*Years pass*
GTVA: "Nah. Just chillin'."
*Years pass*
Earth: "That's cool. How're things with the Vasudans working out?"
*Years pass*
GTVA: "Just fine, thanks. BRB, Shivans."
*Freespace 2*
Haven't read that Isaac Asimov story, have you? The solution, as proposed by an old lady, is simply to broadcast all the time and not wait for an answer. That way you get the answers to your questions without asking.
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GTVA: "Just fine, thanks. BRB, Shivans."
:lol: Kinda reminds me of my Eve days.
I would suspect that contact had been made at some point, if Earth is technically capable of recieving it, the concern is, had it been good news, like everyone is fine and dandy, then they'd have made it fleet-wide knowledge. The only real reason for hiding good news would be to hide Earth, but the Shivans have never shown a real attraction for such things as interrogation, so the morale boost would probably outweigh the risks. That, in itself, suggests that all is not as it should be on Earth.
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Any receiver in Alpha Centauri (which is actually a Vasudan system) would pick up all the Law and Order broadcasts, wireless torrents, podcasts, and whatnot from Earth, so there'd be no way to stop someone from finding out.
Assuming of course that anyone is still using radio waves for anything. Which is an assumption given the fact we know they have FTL comms.
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the knowledge of rado waves didn't die out, I'm sure of it. Heck the principles are simple and they are bound to have at least museum pieces.
I doubt you use subspace for planet-side communications anyway.. We know subspace drives are energy hogs, and opening miniature subspace nodes to transmit data 1m from the ground of a large planet sounds unlikely.
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How can you be sure of it? Scientists clearly stated that extraterrestrial civilizations might now use radio waves. Even the human civilization might decide to use something else in the future.
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I'm not...but the radio sounds more reasonable for large scale, personal planetary use that subspace (IIRC, subspace drives are affected by gravity)
Or you you think subspace mobile phones will be used?
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the knowledge of rado waves didn't die out, I'm sure of it. Heck the principles are simple and they are bound to have at least museum pieces.
I doubt you use subspace for planet-side communications anyway.. We know subspace drives are energy hogs, and opening miniature subspace nodes to transmit data 1m from the ground of a large planet sounds unlikely.
Hyperwave or whatever you want to call it might not have such high energy requirements though. A subspace drive has to be able to pick up about a ton of space craft. A hyperwave radio has to be able to do the same to photons or maybe not even that. For all you know we might be able to do that now with a 9v battery.
Furthermore we know that whatever the GTVA uses is small enough that a party of marines can carry it in Return to Babel. So it certainly isn't something requiring a ship sized fusion reactor.
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Do you think that the developers could have imagined all of these serious discussions about something they thought would look cool? :lol:
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the knowledge of rado waves didn't die out, I'm sure of it. Heck the principles are simple and they are bound to have at least museum pieces.
I doubt you use subspace for planet-side communications anyway.. We know subspace drives are energy hogs, and opening miniature subspace nodes to transmit data 1m from the ground of a large planet sounds unlikely.
Hyperwave or whatever you want to call it might not have such high energy requirements though. A subspace drive has to be able to pick up about a ton of space craft. A hyperwave radio has to be able to do the same to photons or maybe not even that. For all you know we might be able to do that now with a 9v battery.
Furthermore we know that whatever the GTVA uses is small enough that a party of marines can carry it in Return to Babel. So it certainly isn't something requiring a ship sized fusion reactor.
Ahh..but how much energy is neededto open up a subspace vortex in the first place? We don't really know. We do know that the ship has to vibrate in N-dimensions. (Can a photon vibrate in N-dimensions?) :wtf:
Also, I have no idea what you're implying with that "Return to Babel" comment...the ETAK?
However, we DO know that strong gravity fields mess things up with subspace. And being on a planets surface is probably very disruptive.
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Also, I have no idea what you're implying with that "Return to Babel" comment...the ETAK?
He's refering to Victor, the Vasudan marine unit transported from the GVT Keb(maybe the transport has another name...I remember that it was an Argo).
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Ahh..but how much energy is neededto open up a subspace vortex in the first place? We don't really know. We do know that the ship has to vibrate in N-dimensions. (Can a photon vibrate in N-dimensions?) :wtf:
Exactly, we don't know. Which makes it ridiculous for you to say it takes too much energy for it to be in common usage.
Also, I have no idea what you're implying with that "Return to Babel" comment...the ETAK?
The marines in that mission talk from on board the Iceni to command before they reach the bridge. Seems pretty obvious that they had some form of FTL communication device with them.
However, we DO know that strong gravity fields mess things up with subspace. And being on a planets surface is probably very disruptive.
Where do we know that from?
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The marines in that mission talk from on board the Iceni to command before they reach the bridge. Seems pretty obvious that they had some form of FTL communication device with them.
Or they transmitted STL to a relay on the transport.
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Exactly, we don't know. Which makes it ridiculous for you to say it takes too much energy for it to be in common usage.
WE don't know, but we can make pretty good guesses on what we do know, and we do know subspace engines cost a lot of $ and use a lot of energy.
The marines in that mission talk from on board the Iceni to command before they reach the bridge. Seems pretty obvious that they had some form of FTL communication device with them.
OR the communication was relayed to and from a nearby ship. It's usually done that way in RL in the military IIRC. Basicly, the marines base of operations (transport, capship or one could even use a fighter) catches the marine comms and forwards them to command and vice-versa.
However, we DO know that strong gravity fields mess things up with subspace. And being on a planets surface is probably very disruptive.
Where do we know that from?
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Since subspace jump (in-system ones) seem to be affected by it. IIRC, it's in the techroom somewhere and we also don't ever see ships jumping in close proximity to a planet or large stellar body.
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WE don't know, but we can make pretty good guesses on what we do know, and we do know subspace engines cost a lot of $ and use a lot of energy.
We know **** all about the cost of FTL comms though. As I said right at the start a ship weighs a lot more than a photon. Infinitely more in fact. As such you can't make any predictions about the cost of an FTL comm compared with an FTL drive. Only one of those is moving a mass. The comms are just moving information through subspace. That might not be hard to do at all.
Since subspace jump (in-system ones) seem to be affected by it. IIRC, it's in the techroom somewhere and we also don't ever see ships jumping in close proximity to a planet or large stellar body.
No it isn't. The techroom says that a gravitational field is required for an in-system jump. It doesn't say that the gravitational field disrupts the jump in any way. Simply that it makes it possible. If anything that argument means that hyperwave would be easier on a planet.
As for why they don't jump close to a planet, perhaps it's cause if they did they'd suddenly be accelerated straight down and crash.
The marines in that mission talk from on board the Iceni to command before they reach the bridge. Seems pretty obvious that they had some form of FTL communication device with them.
Or they transmitted STL to a relay on the transport.
The message is still sent even if the transport is destroyed between the marines boarding the Iceni and sending it.
Could just be sloppy FREDding from :v: but unless you're saying that the marines can just patch into the comms of any nearby friendly ship and send messages (surely a massive security risk) it does speak for them having the FTL comms with them.
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Security risk? What sensitive information do the marines have that could be of any interest to shivans? Not that hte shivans really do care a lot about talking with us in the first place or that they understand our language at all :rolleyes:
Why would you be using subpsace communicators on a planet when radiowaves do the job just fine already?
Or are you seriously telling me that a tech that manipulates time-space will somehow be cheaper and more compact that something we already posses now?
And I say again - nowhere in-game have we seen a ship jump even remotely close to a planet. (aka- the planets in game were al ldistant, approximately as distant as the moon) I'm not talking jumping in in high/low orbit.
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The GTVA currently control Alpha centauri, less then 5 LY's from earth, right?
And we have sent TV, radio, and other signals across lightyears, right?
So why not send Messages to and from Earth? Sure, no real-time talking, no real help, but it would tell the people of Earth there families are safe and sound.
Whoever said they didn't?
Alpha 1 never recieved the highest security clearences. You wouldn't know either way.
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Any receiver in Alpha Centauri (which is actually a Vasudan system) would pick up all the Law and Order broadcasts, wireless torrents, podcasts, and whatnot from Earth, so there'd be no way to stop someone from finding out.
Assuming of course that anyone is still using radio waves for anything. Which is an assumption given the fact we know they have FTL comms.
We know that "Setekhs' crystalline detection arrays provide their fleets with doubled radar range within the nebular region." So I would say that it's a pretty safe assumption to say that the GTVA uses radio waves for something.
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We know that "Setekhs' crystalline detection arrays provide their fleets with doubled radar range within the nebular region." So I would say that it's a pretty safe assumption to say that the GTVA uses radio waves for something.
I wouldn't say it was safe. They might be, they might not.
If the captain of a GTVA destroyer says to fire all guns at the enemy are we to assume that he means chemically propelled slug throwers? Or is it just that the term guns is so engrained in the vernacular that it's now used when it's technically incorrect.
Same goes for radar. I can easily see the term being used long after the system no longer works on radio waves.
But anyway, even if the GTVA does use radio waves for radar it's unlikely that they have the power to be picked up 4.4 light years away.
Security risk? What sensitive information do the marines have that could be of any interest to shivans? Not that hte shivans really do care a lot about talking with us in the first place or that they understand our language at all :rolleyes:
And the shivans were the only design consideration when FTL comms were designed? The engineers figured that humanity were so peaceful that they would never fight amongst themeselves or with the vasudans ever again and thus didn't build basic security options into their devices. :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that security against eavesdroppers was a consideration in this particular mission. I'm saying that only a fool would design a radio system that could automatically connect to and piggyback off any friendly radio system in the vicinity. You're just asking for your ships comms to be hacked and have false orders sent if you do that.
It's one thing to say that the Qeb would have acted as an FTL relay point using a carefully designed system that would allow the marines to send their signals back to it for relay. It's a completely different matter to say that they can simply connect to any other ships present and use their comms to talk to Command without any interaction from the pilot of said ship.
Why would you be using subpsace communicators on a planet when radiowaves do the job just fine already?
Or are you seriously telling me that a tech that manipulates time-space will somehow be cheaper and more compact that something we already posses now?
Dear Mr Marconi.
I read your proposal for a system of communication using radio waves but do not believe that it is workable. There have been various attempts to do something similar using radio waves in the past and they have all been financial failures. It is simply much cheaper to use the electric telegraph than your so called wireless device. I see no reason why anyone should invest in this system when the electric telegraph works just fine.
Do you believe that your system will be cheaper than the telegraph? Smaller? Do you believe that a system involving sending and receiving aetheric waves will really be able to take over from the current one using simple electricity?
The future of communication is obviously the electric telegraph and I have no doubt that you will find it still in use 300 years from now.
:rolleyes:
Even if the subspace phone/TV is more expensive (and to be honest that's a fairly big if) you are forgetting the cost of the infrastructure that keeps radio working. In order to make a cellphone call to America I have to connect to a cell phone tower. It then has to pass the signal on until it reaches a transmitter that can beam the information to a satellite which then beams the signal back to a receiver then to a another tower and then finally to the cellphone of whoever I'm talking to.
A subspace phone does it directly. Furthermore it doesn't necessarily require a provider. All calls might be free once you buy the equipment. That's an enormous incentive to buy one.
Radio requires a strictly regulated set of frequencies. Not everyone can have one, meaning that the government has a reason to step in and control them. Without that need TV and radio stations could do whatever they wanted to. Not only that but they could reach anyone on the planet or even everyone in the Solar system from one small transmitter. No need to faff about with keeping affiliates happy in order for them to keep transmitting your programs. So I can lots of reasons why TV stations would change to a subspace based system once the phones had put the infrastructure in.
And I say again - nowhere in-game have we seen a ship jump even remotely close to a planet. (aka- the planets in game were al ldistant, approximately as distant as the moon) I'm not talking jumping in in high/low orbit.
In every example the reason ships have been jumping in has had little to do with the planet itself. The only event even involving planets in FS2 is the first mission where the refugees are being escorted away from one. And in that case the ships don't even have jump drives. FS1 quite clearly states that the Shivans showed no interest in planets and were only interested in holding and controlling jump nodes. This behaviour changed later on in the game but in FS2 it appears that the Shivans have simply gone back to their original game plan.
Secondly even if I assume you are correct about gravity affecting subspace jumps that still doesn't mean subspace comms are affected. Jumps involve a transfer of mass. Comms involve a transfer of information. Even if you are correct it could be that the gravitational field has an effect on the mass of the object being transferred. Since information has no mass it wouldn't be affected in the same way.
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We know that "Setekhs' crystalline detection arrays provide their fleets with doubled radar range within the nebular region." So I would say that it's a pretty safe assumption to say that the GTVA uses radio waves for something.
I wouldn't say it was safe. They might be, they might not.
If the captain of a GTVA destroyer says to fire all guns at the enemy are we to assume that he means chemically propelled slug throwers? Or is it just that the term guns is so engrained in the vernacular that it's now used when it's technically incorrect.
Same goes for radar. I can easily see the term being used long after the system no longer works on radio waves.
But anyway, even if the GTVA does use radio waves for radar it's unlikely that they have the power to be picked up 4.4 light years away.
You seriously want to go down the route of claiming that you don't need to revise your argument, because there's a chance that the word might've changed?
How do we know that the GTVA has faster than light comms, then? How do we know that Gamma Draconis isn't supposed to be Mars? After all, in 200 years, 'Mars' might've changed. For all we know, the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis is Jupiter. Again, maybe the name changed. And all that messy anecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise - it doesn't matter. The word might've changed.
IMHO, if you use a tactic in an argument, then you should use a tactic which will get you somewhere. This doesn't actually get you anywhere, except in to a philosophical discussion about what you can actually know, which in this case is worth basically nothing. If you want to show how 'enlightened' you are, because you know what you don't know, let's cut to the chase. We have no proof that Freespace 2 isn't simply the delusional dream of a frog hopped up on 'shrooms. Volition could say that's what it is tomorrow, and it would technically be canon.
Radar in Freespace 2 works like radar, serves the same kind of function as radar, and is called radar. The only contradictory piece of evidence is that you can see objects on the other side of a ship - but I would argue that it makes sense to change that from a gameplay and performance POV. And :V: did model in interference from asteroids, which seems reasonable to expect from radar. (Granted, I haven't read any studies of radar's effectiveness on asteroid fields)
I don't see the kind of thing happening like your guns example - where a ship explicitly states "We're picking up a vessel on radar that's in subspace".
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You have already pointed out an example of FS2 Radar doing something that real radar systems can't do. But let's go for the big one.
FS2 Radar can fuzzily pick up the Sathanas fleet in orbit around Capella several AU away!
If you want to argue that the system must be radio based radar despite the discrepancies then go ahead. I'm going to stick by what I said and say it could be, but it might not be too.
Oh and if we're talking about tactics that get you somewhere, unless you're going to claim that radio based radar signals can be detected over a 4LY distance I don't see what this has to do with the subject anyway. I've already said that even if the FS2 radar is radio based it's almost certainly still too weak to give a meaningful signal over that kind of distance.
Oh and since you quoted the Setekh's description it's only fair I quote the Charybdis.
Ships of the GTA Charybdis class have been packed with the latest tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment from GTVI labs. Each GTVA battle group has a squadron of Charybdis-class ships assigned to it. These ships double the range of the group's standard detection arrays.
Wanna explain to me what the **** tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment is?
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And the shivans were the only design consideration when FTL comms were designed? The engineers figured that humanity were so peaceful that they would never fight amongst themeselves or with the vasudans ever again and thus didn't build basic security options into their devices. :rolleyes:
I'm not saying that security against eavesdroppers was a consideration in this particular mission. I'm saying that only a fool would design a radio system that could automatically connect to and piggyback off any friendly radio system in the vicinity. You're just asking for your ships comms to be hacked and have false orders sent if you do that.
It's one thing to say that the Qeb would have acted as an FTL relay point using a carefully designed system that would allow the marines to send their signals back to it for relay. It's a completely different matter to say that they can simply connect to any other ships present and use their comms to talk to Command without any interaction from the pilot of said ship.
I guess you never heard of secured chanells and encryption :rolleyes:
And who said the comm systems conenct automaticly to a friendly craft? It probably would require the pilot/commander confirmation. It might have a designated reciver craft. Or it could be automatic - there are a dozen ways you can build secure data transfer systems (a friendly craft could act as a relay, without actually storing any information that passes trough or being able to listen to the conversation in question)
Even if the subspace phone/TV is more expensive (and to be honest that's a fairly big if) you are forgetting the cost of the infrastructure that keeps radio working. In order to make a cellphone call to America I have to connect to a cell phone tower. It then has to pass the signal on until it reaches a transmitter that can beam the information to a satellite which then beams the signal back to a receiver then to a another tower and then finally to the cellphone of whoever I'm talking to.
Radio requires a strictly regulated set of frequencies. Not everyone can have one, meaning that the government has a reason to step in and control them. Without that need TV and radio stations could do whatever they wanted to. Not only that but they could reach anyone on the planet or even everyone in the Solar system from one small transmitter. No need to faff about with keeping affiliates happy in order for them to keep transmitting your programs. So I can lots of reasons why TV stations would change to a subspace based system once the phones had put the infrastructure in. [/quote]
Well, it's all conjectures on both sides, isn't it? We don't really know how big a limitation or infrastructure a subspace comm would need. Subspace comms would still need relays for system-to-system calls.
Even if I assume you are correct about gravity affecting subspace jumps that still doesn't mean subspace comms are affected. Jumps involve a transfer of mass. Comms involve a transfer of information. Even if you are correct it could be that the gravitational field has an effect on the mass of the object being transferred. Since information has no mass it wouldn't be affected in the same way.
Who ever said it has anything to do with mass - rather with the opening of the vortex itself. In that case it doesn't matter what mass you trying to send trough - since strong gravity field prevent the vortex from being opened wether you sending a dreard or a needle trough.
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You have already pointed out an example of FS2 Radar doing something that real radar systems can't do. But let's go for the big one.
FS2 Radar can fuzzily pick up the Sathanas fleet in orbit around Capella several AU away!
The saths are NOT several AU away. Heck, you can see them quite clearly against the sun, so they couldn't be more than 100 or so klicks away. They are in visual range, and I doubt even shivans are dumb enough to look at the sun up close :P
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I guess you never heard of secured chanells and encryption :rolleyes:
And who said the comm systems conenct automaticly to a friendly craft? It probably would require the pilot/commander confirmation. It might have a designated reciver craft. Or it could be automatic - there are a dozen ways you can build secure data transfer systems (a friendly craft could act as a relay, without actually storing any information that passes trough or being able to listen to the conversation in question)
It's quite possible at that point in the mission for the only ships present to be you, the Iceni and the Shivans. And I don't remember :v: including a messages saying "Would you like to forward Victor 3's message to Command" :p
As for it being automatic that's kinda my point. It's a huge security mistake to allow anyone with a proper radio to automatically uplink to any other ship and send messages. Doing that would just be asking for trouble.
Well, it's all conjectures on both sides, isn't it? We don't really know how big a limitation or infrastructure a subspace comm would need. Subspace comms would still need relays for system-to-system calls.
That's my entire point Trashman. It is conjecture. Which makes you saying "No it has to be radio waves" a rather impossible position to defend. Earth may still be using radio waves. Or they have gone over to FTL comms. I can argue both sides fairly easily so the subject must remain open with neither side conclusively proved.
Even if I assume you are correct about gravity affecting subspace jumps that still doesn't mean subspace comms are affected. Jumps involve a transfer of mass. Comms involve a transfer of information. Even if you are correct it could be that the gravitational field has an effect on the mass of the object being transferred. Since information has no mass it wouldn't be affected in the same way.
Who ever said it has anything to do with mass - rather with the opening of the vortex itself. In that case it doesn't matter what mass you trying to send trough - since strong gravity field prevent the vortex from being opened wether you sending a dreard or a needle trough.
Who says it doesn't. Again you're trying to say you have the answer when there isn't enough data to decide in either direction.
Besides I still feel your point about gravitation fields bass-ackwards. The only comment in the techroom about gravitational fields implies that they make it easier to open a jump point not harder.
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Besides I still feel your point about gravitation fields bass-ackwards. The only comment in the techroom about gravitational fields implies that they make it easier to open a jump point not harder.
Nope.
It's quite possible at that point in the mission for the only ships present to be you, the Iceni and the Shivans. And I don't remember including a messages saying "Would you like to forward Victor 3's message to Command"
As for it being automatic that's kinda my point. It's a huge security mistake to allow anyone with a proper radio to automatically uplink to any other ship and send messages. Doing that would just be asking for trouble.
IIRC, if hte transport blows the mission is over anyway.
And no, it wouldn't be asking for trouble. Like I said, a secure system can be easily designed. I can think of a few ways right now.
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Besides I still feel your point about gravitation fields bass-ackwards. The only comment in the techroom about gravitational fields implies that they make it easier to open a jump point not harder.
Nope.
What do you mean "Nope" and then no rebuttal? What kind of an argument is that? :rolleyes:
IIRC, if hte transport blows the mission is over anyway.
Check again.
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Besides I still feel your point about gravitation fields bass-ackwards. The only comment in the techroom about gravitational fields implies that they make it easier to open a jump point not harder.
Nope.
What do you mean "Nope" and then no rebuttal? What kind of an argument is that? :rolleyes:
Nope as in - no, it doesn't imply that at all. You only want it to imply that. There's nothing really more to say.
IIRC, if hte transport blows the mission is over anyway.
Check again.
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Without the transport you can't evacuate the Iceni crew and the ETAK specs, and the Iceni is set to self-distruct.
What has this got to do with relay comms anyway?
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Besides I still feel your point about gravitation fields bass-ackwards. The only comment in the techroom about gravitational fields implies that they make it easier to open a jump point not harder.
Nope.
What do you mean "Nope" and then no rebuttal? What kind of an argument is that? :rolleyes:
Nope as in - no, it doesn't imply that at all. You only want it to imply that. There's nothing really more to say.
First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.
Says absolutely nothing about gravity interfering with jumps and preventing them. It says the exact opposite in fact.
Without the transport you can't evacuate the Iceni crew and the ETAK specs, and the Iceni is set to self-distruct.
Check it again. The mission does not automatically end. The message is still sent.
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I shall combat the FTL theory by saying that every moron knowing even a fart about physics will know there is *nothing* faster then light/radio waves/. Nothing.
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1) This is a fictional universe. It abides by it's own laws which might not be the same as in our universe.
2) We've already seen them use jump drives to travel faster than light. If that's possible it's not a huge stretch to FTL comms too.
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I shall combat the FTL theory by saying that every moron knowing even a fart about physics will know there is *nothing* faster then light/radio waves/. Nothing.
There is actually a sound theory as to how FTL travel is possible.
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First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.
Says absolutely nothing about gravity interfering with jumps and preventing them. It says the exact opposite in fact.
Again no. It doesn't say anything, you just want to interpret it that way.
A small example: Water is required for a human to live on the surface of a planet.
no water = dead human
But what about too much water? what would happen to a human submerged in water? OK, it's crappy example but it just goes to illustrate that having Y REQUIRED for X, doesn't mean that having more of Y is good for X.
Too strong a gravity field might interfere with subspace jumps. Or not. So it can go either way. That's all I'm saying.
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FS2 Radar can fuzzily pick up the Sathanas fleet in orbit around Capella several AU away!
A) As Trashman already pointed out, you can also see the Sathanas vessels. Are we assuming that light no longer functions the same way that it does in our universe, too?
B) Whatever the Sathanas vessels were doing involved enough energy to be able to cause a sun to go supernova. We have the technology to send/receive radio waves to/from a spacecraft built in the 70s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_2) from 83.5 AU away.
Oh and since you quoted the Setekh's description it's only fair I quote the Charybdis.
Ships of the GTA Charybdis class have been packed with the latest tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment from GTVI labs. Each GTVA battle group has a squadron of Charybdis-class ships assigned to it. These ships double the range of the group's standard detection arrays.
Wanna explain to me what the **** tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment is?
Well, on first glance, it doesn't sound like it has to do anything with radio or radar. And since the tech screen refers to 'radar' and 'tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment' separately, it could just as easily imply that they're different entities. So I don't see how that either helps or harms your argument that it's unreasonable to assume that the GTVA still has EM-sensing equipment.
unless you're going to claim that radio based radar signals can be detected over a 4LY distance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar
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A) As Trashman already pointed out, you can also see the Sathanas vessels. Are we assuming that light no longer functions the same way that it does in our universe, too?
Hmmm. I must have missed Trashman's response what with the double post and all. Fine I'll agree with Trashman about the distance. My bad.
Well, on first glance, it doesn't sound like it has to do anything with radio or radar. And since the tech screen refers to 'radar' and 'tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment' separately, it could just as easily imply that they're different entities. So I don't see how that either helps or harms your argument that it's unreasonable to assume that the GTVA still has EM-sensing equipment.
I've said that it's not 100% certain whether GTVA radar is radio or possibly Tachyon based. The tech room comment mentions tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment. And you're asserting with 100% certainty that this can not possibly mean the radar.
Are you kidding me?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar
Are you seriously telling me that GTVA AWACS based radar has the power of a pulsar? I know you can detect radio signals from light years away. I'm saying you probably can't detect radio signals from a GTVA radar light years away and that even if you can you probably can't tell them apart from background noise.
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Well, on first glance, it doesn't sound like it has to do anything with radio or radar. And since the tech screen refers to 'radar' and 'tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment' separately, it could just as easily imply that they're different entities. So I don't see how that either helps or harms your argument that it's unreasonable to assume that the GTVA still has EM-sensing equipment.
I've said that it's not 100% certain whether GTVA radar is radio or possibly Tachyon based. The tech room comment mentions tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment. And you're asserting with 100% certainty that this can not possibly mean the radar.
Are you kidding me?
I think mostly you're kidding yourself. I asserted no such thing. The only way I could see you misreading that is if you assumed that I wasn't using the technical definition of 'radio' and 'radar' in my first sentence, but was instead using the undefined definition that you're trying to insist exists in the Freespace 2 universe. If that's the case, I'd just consider it one more reason why insisting that a word doesn't mean what it's defined to mean is problematic.
But even then, there's no direct link between the tachyon-detector and what is referred to as 'radar'. I could read that sentence as saying that it's upgraded tachyon equipment, or I could read it as saying that the "tachyon" element is something new and the Charybdis was using something different before, or even that the tachyon stuff is not part of the normal sensor package but is intended for extremely unique circumstances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsar
Are you seriously telling me that GTVA AWACS based radar has the power of a pulsar? I know you can detect radio signals from light years away. I'm saying you probably can't detect radio signals from a GTVA radar light years away and that even if you can you probably can't tell them apart from background noise.
My mistake, I misread the part of your post that I quoted (twice, no less) and thought that you were claiming that you couldn't detect radio waves from that distance.
Regardless, no one's insisting that the GTVA is going to ping earth away with their radar. However if the GTVA does have radar, it stands to reason that they could construct a large-scale radio transmitter. I'm sure it's possible to calculate what scale would be needed to transmit successfully to earth, but those calculations are beyond me for now. So at that point I would say that it depends - although the GTVA clearly has access to large-scale power devices, such as fusion generators and antimatter warheads (not to mention the resources required to produce substantial enough amounts of antimatter to use it as a viable weapon).
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Also, the telegraph is a pretty poor example because it's still common knowledge of how to build one. In fact, it's probably much easier to build one than it was when they were popular, because of the improvement of technology and understanding of electronics, and because of Radio Shack.
I can't think up any good example (which isn't surprising because by definition what I'm trying to come up with should be forgotten :p) except possibly for knowledge of how to build drums that can communicate miles across terrain. That seems like too big of a difference because the GTVA still uses equipment based on electromagnetic principles (it's vulnerable to EMP weapons).
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I think mostly you're kidding yourself. I asserted no such thing. The only way I could see you misreading that is if you assumed that I wasn't using the technical definition of 'radio' and 'radar' in my first sentence, but was instead using the undefined definition that you're trying to insist exists in the Freespace 2 universe. If that's the case, I'd just consider it one more reason why insisting that a word doesn't mean what it's defined to mean is problematic.
You what? Are you now claiming that the radar system can be tachyon based then? I asked you if you were saying with 100% certainty that the radar system on the AWACS uses radio waves. You're now telling me you aren't asserting that?
In that case what the **** are you asserting? :confused:
I think if you actually stop and read what I wrote you'll see that you are claiming exactly what I said you're claiming. That the radar system in FS2 uses radio waves and not something else.
But if I'm wrong and you're claiming something else, explain it now before this nonsense goes any further.
My mistake, I misread the part of your post that I quoted (twice, no less) and thought that you were claiming that you couldn't detect radio waves from that distance.
Regardless, no one's insisting that the GTVA is going to ping earth away with their radar. However if the GTVA does have radar, it stands to reason that they could construct a large-scale radio transmitter. I'm sure it's possible to calculate what scale would be needed to transmit successfully to earth, but those calculations are beyond me for now. So at that point I would say that it depends - although the GTVA clearly has access to large-scale power devices, such as fusion generators and antimatter warheads (not to mention the resources required to produce substantial enough amounts of antimatter to use it as a viable weapon).
I never said they didn't. Just that it wasn't a safe assumption to say they still use radio waves for anything. It might be like the telegraph. We could still build one if we wanted to but it's currently an obsolete technology. If something prevented us from using radio waves then it might come into use again.
If you read back through the thread you'll notice I haven't once said that they couldn't build a radio telescope capable of reaching Earth. In fact I even said that the GTVA might have built one but simply pointed it in the wrong direction.
You seem to be assuming I'm arguing one point to the exclusion of all others. Just because I'm saying that the GTVA might not have been able to do something doesn't mean I'm saying that the GTVA are not able to do it. I'm not saying that the GTVA don't use radio based radar. I'm simply saying that they might not.
Also, the telegraph is a pretty poor example because it's still common knowledge of how to build one. In fact, it's probably much easier to build one than it was when they were popular, because of the improvement of technology and understanding of electronics, and because of Radio Shack.
Is this in response to me? :confused:
Cause I mentioned the telegraph in response to Trashman's claim that it would be impractical to switch over from radio to FTL comms because of cost. Similar arguments could have been made about radio itself since the first attempts to do it were financial failures.
I did not mention the telegraph as an example of a technology we couldn't duplicate now and if you think that I did I suggest you read any further posts I make several times before replying to them and/or ask for a simplified explanation as you're obviously having some kind of problem understanding me and are steaming off at a tangent and getting all bothered replying to things I didn't actually say.
Too strong a gravity field might interfere with subspace jumps. Or not. So it can go either way. That's all I'm saying.
You said earlier that it DID interfere and thus would make subspace comms on a planetary surface difficult. If you've now changed to a more reasonable position of saying it may or may not do that then I'll agree with you.
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You what? Are you now claiming that the radar system can be tachyon based then? I asked you if you were saying with 100% certainty that the radar system on the AWACS uses radio waves. You're now telling me you aren't asserting that?
In that case what the **** are you asserting? :confused:
Quit tossing around bull**** phrases like "100% certainty". There is a middle ground between your claim that we don't have a clue and an assertion that it's absolute fact.
Second of all, I've looked over your posts where you replied to me. And I don't see that you ever asked or even implied anything about "100% certainty".
I think if you actually stop and read what I wrote you'll see that you are claiming exactly what I said you're claiming. That the radar system in FS2 uses radio waves and not something else.
But if I'm wrong and you're claiming something else, explain it now before this nonsense goes any further.
Yes, you're right, that's what I'm claiming.
EDIT: Actually, let me quantify that a bit more. I think that the radar in Freespace 2 does use radio waves or at the very least is deliberately sensitive to that portion of the EM spectrum. I do think that it's strongly implied that by Freespace 2 ships do have additional equipment that can detect ships in subspace, so I don't think that the only sensor equipment on FS2 craft is only radar; I just think that it's at least one of the sensor methods available to ships.
I never said they didn't. Just that it wasn't a safe assumption to say they still use radio waves for anything. It might be like the telegraph. We could still build one if we wanted to but it's currently an obsolete technology. If something prevented us from using radio waves then it might come into use again.
If you read back through the thread you'll notice I haven't once said that they couldn't build a radio telescope capable of reaching Earth. In fact I even said that the GTVA might have built one but simply pointed it in the wrong direction.
You seem to be assuming I'm arguing one point to the exclusion of all others. Just because I'm saying that the GTVA might not have been able to do something doesn't mean I'm saying that the GTVA are not able to do it. I'm not saying that the GTVA don't use radio based radar. I'm simply saying that they might not.
No, you're assuming that I'm assuming that you're arguing one point to the exclusion of others. I'm assuming that you just can't grasp what I'm saying, because you're so wrapped up in explaining to us how wrong we all might be, no matter what point we choose. And I'm assuming you're doing that because you think we don't already know that we could be wrong, and we're simply making the best guess (ie expressing an opinion) based on the information in the game.
Now if your opinion is that you're incapable of coming up a conclusion that seems more likely than any one of the others, fine. But if that's the case, then quit acting like we're the ones with faulty logic just because we don't spend all of our posts going "I dunno! It could be one way, but it could also be another way."
Also, the telegraph is a pretty poor example because it's still common knowledge of how to build one. In fact, it's probably much easier to build one than it was when they were popular, because of the improvement of technology and understanding of electronics, and because of Radio Shack.
Is this in response to me? :confused:
Cause I mentioned the telegraph in response to Trashman's claim that it would be impractical to switch over from radio to FTL comms because of cost. Similar arguments could have been made about radio itself since the first attempts to do it were financial failures.
I did not mention the telegraph as an example of a technology we couldn't duplicate now and if you think that I did I suggest you read any further posts I make several times before replying to them and/or ask for a simplified explanation as you're obviously having some kind of problem understanding me and are steaming off at a tangent and getting all bothered replying to things I didn't actually say.
You drew a parallel between radio and the telegraph with that example, and your initial point was that you objected to the assumption that the GTVA was using radio waves for anything. The quote in question mentions: "The future of communication is obviously the electric telegraph and I have no doubt that you will find it still in use 300 years from now. " You were using that as a supporting piece of evidence in the same post that you were replying to me. I can understand if you didn't expect someone to connect those two pieces of data because you didn't explicitly refer to those lines of the quote, but I don't think that's so absurd that I'm "steaming off on a tangent".
It's very frustrating to try and argue with someone who has to categorize your responses as either being absolutely one way, absolutely another way, or absolutely indecisive and in the middle. Or even discuss something, for that matter. I'm used to all kinds of absurd ideas being tossed out in discussions like this, and it keeps it a lot more fresh than someone being completely anal about people drawing assumptions that they think are unwarranted and trying to stamp them out with the utmost self-righteousness. It's just not fun.
EDIT 2: And it may seem really weird to add this in, but no hard feelings. I just had a discussion with somebody who said they thought I was a little over-the-top, so, just thought I'd toss that out there in case I'm being more blunt than you might expect. This is well within the range of frustrating opinion differences that I'm accustomed to.
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I'm curious of subspace communications would have any practical advantage over radio ones (on a planet).
Mobile phones are already capable of transmitting huge amounts of data accurately and all over the planet, and are small and portable. The infrastructure is already there and it isn't that expensive anyway - in fact, in the future it can only get cheaper.
I find it hard to believe that any technology that messes with the fabric of the universe and multiple dimensions will be simple, cheap and require little energy - and thus be as compact and efficient as a mobile phone today.
Thus it is my belief that for MOBILE, PERSONAL USE radio-based communication devices are more probable than subspace-based ones. F'course, you would fine ample subspace commuinication devices, either on the planet or in the orbit (satelites - if the gravity interferes with subspace)
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I'm curious of subspace communications would have any practical advantage over radio ones (on a planet).
Firstly Sol is not a planet. It's likely that there are people all over the system. Especially if Mars or the moon have been colonised. So there's an advantage right there.
Secondly subspace comms appear to be point to point with no need for a relay (except possibly for intersystem comms where we don't know for certain what they do). So that means you don't need to maintain the massive infrastructure that mobile phones require. You wouldn't need communication satellites or trans-atlantic phone cables. Again that's a massive advantage cause those things do cost.
The infrastructure is already there and it isn't that expensive anyway - in fact, in the future it can only get cheaper.
Check how much a communications satellite costs.
I find it hard to believe that any technology that messes with the fabric of the universe and multiple dimensions will be simple, cheap and require little energy - and thus be as compact and efficient as a mobile phone today.
Thus it is my belief that for MOBILE, PERSONAL USE radio-based communication devices are more probable than subspace-based ones. F'course, you would fine ample subspace commuinication devices, either on the planet or in the orbit (satelites - if the gravity interferes with subspace)
The FS2 universe has ships with laser weapons more powerful than a nuclear weapon. I don't consider a cheap FTL communication device to be impossible. Such items are a mainstay of sci-fi after all.
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EDIT 2: And it may seem really weird to add this in, but no hard feelings. I just had a discussion with somebody who said they thought I was a little over-the-top, so, just thought I'd toss that out there in case I'm being more blunt than you might expect. This is well within the range of frustrating opinion differences that I'm accustomed to.
To be honest it's gotten to the stage where I don't think there is any point in continuing the argument with you. If you believe that the phrase "packed with the latest tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment from GTVI labs" can not reasonably be used to say that the GTVA might be using Tachyon based detection equipment instead of radio based radar it's obviously a waste of my time which I could spend more productively elsewhere.
As far as I'm concerned this whole thread has been the last in a long series of threads proving that for whatever reason you and me can not have a sensible discussion. I've got little interest in continuing the cycle of stupidity so I'm bowing out.
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I'm curious of subspace communications would have any practical advantage over radio ones (on a planet).
Firstly Sol is not a planet. It's likely that there are people all over the system. Especially if Mars or the moon have been colonised. So there's an advantage right there.
I wasn't asking about a system, I was asking about a PLANET!
Check how much a communications satellite costs.
A lot. But ther'es allready more than enough of them in orbit. And in 200 years or so when having space fighters and freighters, the cost of a satelite would be minimal.
And everything we know indicates that subspace tech ain't cheap.
I find it hard to believe that any technology that messes with the fabric of the universe and multiple dimensions will be simple, cheap and require little energy - and thus be as compact and efficient as a mobile phone today.
Thus it is my belief that for MOBILE, PERSONAL USE radio-based communication devices are more probable than subspace-based ones. F'course, you would fine ample subspace commuinication devices, either on the planet or in the orbit (satelites - if the gravity interferes with subspace)
The FS2 universe has ships with laser weapons more powerful than a nuclear weapon. I don't consider a cheap FTL communication device to be impossible. Such items are a mainstay of sci-fi after all.
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TI's stil hard to belive. Occams Razor anyone? :lol:
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Religion anyone? :lol:
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I wasn't asking about a system, I was asking about a PLANET!
Why would anyone use a walkie talkie to talk to someone next door when they could just go talk to them? No good reason to go out an buy one, I agree. But what if you already owned a walkie talkie to talk to a friend who lived a mile away, might you then be tempted to use it rather than walking downstairs?
Oh and the second reason I gave applied to comms on a planet.
A lot. But ther'es allready more than enough of them in orbit. And in 200 years or so when having space fighters and freighters, the cost of a satelite would be minimal.
And everything we know indicates that subspace tech ain't cheap.
We only know that jump drives aren't cheap. You might as well say that torches are expensive cause it costs a fortune to buy a military laser. We have absolutely no idea how much a subspace FTL comms device costs. Might even be cheaper once you factor in the not having to pay for satellites etc.