Author Topic: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?  (Read 10791 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
Any receiver in Alpha Centauri (which is actually a Vasudan system) would pick up all the Law and Order broadcasts, wireless torrents, podcasts, and whatnot from Earth, so there'd be no way to stop someone from finding out.

Assuming of course that anyone is still using radio waves for anything. Which is an assumption given the fact we know they have FTL comms.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
the knowledge of rado waves didn't die out, I'm sure of it. Heck the principles are simple and they are bound to have at least museum pieces.

I doubt you use subspace for planet-side communications anyway.. We know subspace drives are energy hogs, and opening miniature subspace nodes to transmit data 1m from the ground of a large planet sounds unlikely.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
How can you be sure of it? Scientists clearly stated that extraterrestrial civilizations might now use radio waves. Even the human civilization might decide to use something else in the future.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
I'm not...but the radio sounds more reasonable for large scale, personal planetary use that subspace (IIRC, subspace drives are affected by gravity)

Or you you think subspace mobile phones will be used?
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
the knowledge of rado waves didn't die out, I'm sure of it. Heck the principles are simple and they are bound to have at least museum pieces.

I doubt you use subspace for planet-side communications anyway.. We know subspace drives are energy hogs, and opening miniature subspace nodes to transmit data 1m from the ground of a large planet sounds unlikely.

Hyperwave or whatever you want to call it might not have such high energy requirements though. A subspace drive has to be able to pick up about a ton  of space craft. A hyperwave radio has to be able to do the same to photons or maybe not even that. For all you know we might be able to do that now with a 9v battery.

Furthermore we know that whatever the GTVA uses is small enough that a party of marines can carry it in Return to Babel. So it certainly isn't something requiring a ship sized fusion reactor.
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Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
Do you think that the developers could have imagined all of these serious discussions about something they thought would look cool?  :lol:

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
the knowledge of rado waves didn't die out, I'm sure of it. Heck the principles are simple and they are bound to have at least museum pieces.

I doubt you use subspace for planet-side communications anyway.. We know subspace drives are energy hogs, and opening miniature subspace nodes to transmit data 1m from the ground of a large planet sounds unlikely.

Hyperwave or whatever you want to call it might not have such high energy requirements though. A subspace drive has to be able to pick up about a ton  of space craft. A hyperwave radio has to be able to do the same to photons or maybe not even that. For all you know we might be able to do that now with a 9v battery.

Furthermore we know that whatever the GTVA uses is small enough that a party of marines can carry it in Return to Babel. So it certainly isn't something requiring a ship sized fusion reactor.

Ahh..but how much energy is neededto open up a subspace vortex in the first place? We don't really know. We do know that the ship has to vibrate in N-dimensions. (Can a photon vibrate in N-dimensions?) :wtf:
Also, I have no idea what you're implying with that "Return to Babel" comment...the ETAK?

However, we DO know that strong gravity fields mess things up with subspace. And being on a planets surface is probably very disruptive.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
Also, I have no idea what you're implying with that "Return to Babel" comment...the ETAK?

He's refering to Victor, the Vasudan marine unit transported from the GVT Keb(maybe the transport has another name...I remember that it was an Argo).
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
Ahh..but how much energy is neededto open up a subspace vortex in the first place? We don't really know. We do know that the ship has to vibrate in N-dimensions. (Can a photon vibrate in N-dimensions?) :wtf:

Exactly, we don't know. Which makes it ridiculous for you to say it takes too much energy for it to be in common usage.

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Also, I have no idea what you're implying with that "Return to Babel" comment...the ETAK?

The marines in that mission talk from on board the Iceni to command before they reach the bridge. Seems pretty obvious that they had some form of FTL communication device with them.

Quote
However, we DO know that strong gravity fields mess things up with subspace. And being on a planets surface is probably very disruptive.

Where do we know that from?
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Offline Goober5000

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
The marines in that mission talk from on board the Iceni to command before they reach the bridge. Seems pretty obvious that they had some form of FTL communication device with them.
Or they transmitted STL to a relay on the transport.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
Exactly, we don't know. Which makes it ridiculous for you to say it takes too much energy for it to be in common usage.


WE don't know, but we can make pretty good guesses on what we do know, and we do know subspace engines cost a lot of $ and use a lot of energy.


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The marines in that mission talk from on board the Iceni to command before they reach the bridge. Seems pretty obvious that they had some form of FTL communication device with them.

OR the communication was relayed to and from a nearby ship.  It's usually done that way in RL in the military IIRC. Basicly, the marines base of operations (transport, capship or one could even use a fighter) catches the marine comms and forwards them to command and vice-versa.


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However, we DO know that strong gravity fields mess things up with subspace. And being on a planets surface is probably very disruptive.
Where do we know that from?
[/quote]

Since subspace jump (in-system ones) seem to be affected by it. IIRC, it's in the techroom somewhere and we also don't ever see ships jumping in close proximity to a planet or large stellar body.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
WE don't know, but we can make pretty good guesses on what we do know, and we do know subspace engines cost a lot of $ and use a lot of energy.

We know **** all about the cost of FTL comms though. As I said right at the start a ship weighs a lot more than a photon. Infinitely more in fact. As such you can't make any predictions about the cost of an FTL comm compared with an FTL drive. Only one of those is moving a mass. The comms are just moving information through subspace. That might not be hard to do at all.

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Since subspace jump (in-system ones) seem to be affected by it. IIRC, it's in the techroom somewhere and we also don't ever see ships jumping in close proximity to a planet or large stellar body.

No it isn't. The techroom says that a gravitational field is required for an in-system jump. It doesn't say that the gravitational field disrupts the jump in any way. Simply that it makes it possible. If anything that argument means that hyperwave would be easier on a planet.

As for why they don't jump close to a planet, perhaps it's cause if they did they'd suddenly be accelerated straight down and crash.


The marines in that mission talk from on board the Iceni to command before they reach the bridge. Seems pretty obvious that they had some form of FTL communication device with them.
Or they transmitted STL to a relay on the transport.

The message is still sent even if the transport is destroyed between the marines boarding the Iceni and sending it.

Could just be sloppy FREDding from :v: but unless you're saying that the marines can just patch into the comms of any nearby friendly ship and send messages (surely a massive security risk) it does speak for them having the FTL comms with them.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 03:43:10 pm by karajorma »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
Security risk? What sensitive information do the marines have that could be of any interest to shivans? Not that hte shivans really do care a lot about talking with us in the first place or that they understand our language at all :rolleyes:


Why would you be using subpsace communicators on a planet when radiowaves do the job just fine already?
Or are you seriously telling me that a tech that manipulates time-space will somehow be cheaper and more compact that something we already posses now?

And I say again - nowhere in-game have we seen a ship jump even remotely close to a planet. (aka- the planets in game were al ldistant, approximately as distant as the moon) I'm not talking jumping in in high/low orbit.
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Offline BlackDove

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
The GTVA currently control Alpha centauri, less then 5 LY's from earth, right?

And we have sent TV, radio, and other signals across lightyears, right?

So why not send Messages to and from Earth? Sure, no real-time talking, no real help, but it would tell the people of Earth there families are safe and sound.

Whoever said they didn't?

Alpha 1 never recieved the highest security clearences. You wouldn't know either way.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
Any receiver in Alpha Centauri (which is actually a Vasudan system) would pick up all the Law and Order broadcasts, wireless torrents, podcasts, and whatnot from Earth, so there'd be no way to stop someone from finding out.

Assuming of course that anyone is still using radio waves for anything. Which is an assumption given the fact we know they have FTL comms.

We know that "Setekhs' crystalline detection arrays provide their fleets with doubled radar range within the nebular region." So I would say that it's a pretty safe assumption to say that the GTVA uses radio waves for something.
-C

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
We know that "Setekhs' crystalline detection arrays provide their fleets with doubled radar range within the nebular region." So I would say that it's a pretty safe assumption to say that the GTVA uses radio waves for something.

I wouldn't say it was safe. They might be, they might not.

If the captain of a GTVA destroyer says to fire all guns at the enemy are we to assume that he means chemically propelled slug throwers? Or is it just that the term guns is so engrained in the vernacular that it's now used when it's technically incorrect.

Same goes for radar. I can easily see the term being used long after the system no longer works on radio waves.

But anyway, even if the GTVA does use radio waves for radar it's unlikely that they have the power to be picked up 4.4 light years away.

Security risk? What sensitive information do the marines have that could be of any interest to shivans? Not that hte shivans really do care a lot about talking with us in the first place or that they understand our language at all :rolleyes:

And the shivans were the only design consideration when FTL comms were designed? The engineers figured that humanity were so peaceful that they would never fight amongst themeselves or with the vasudans ever again and thus didn't build basic security options into their devices. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that security against eavesdroppers was a consideration in this particular mission. I'm saying that only a fool would design a radio system that could automatically connect to and piggyback off any friendly radio system in the vicinity. You're just asking for your ships comms to be hacked and have false orders sent if you do that. 

It's one thing to say that the Qeb would have acted as an FTL relay point using a carefully designed system that would allow the marines to send their signals back to it for relay. It's a completely different matter to say that they can simply connect to any other ships present and use their comms to talk to Command without any interaction from the pilot of said ship.

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Why would you be using subpsace communicators on a planet when radiowaves do the job just fine already?
Or are you seriously telling me that a tech that manipulates time-space will somehow be cheaper and more compact that something we already posses now?

Dear Mr Marconi.

I read your proposal for a system of communication using radio waves but do not believe that it is workable. There have been various attempts to do something similar using radio waves in the past and they have all been financial failures. It is simply much cheaper to use the electric telegraph than your so called wireless device. I see no reason why anyone should invest in this system when the electric telegraph works just fine.

Do you believe that your system will be cheaper than the telegraph? Smaller? Do you believe that a system involving sending and receiving aetheric waves will really be able to take over from the current one using simple electricity?

The future of communication is obviously the electric telegraph and I have no doubt that you will find it still in use 300 years from now.


:rolleyes:

Even if the subspace phone/TV is more expensive (and to be honest that's a fairly big if) you are forgetting the cost of the infrastructure that keeps radio working. In order to make a cellphone call to America I have to connect to a cell phone tower. It then has to pass the signal on until it reaches a transmitter that can beam the information to a satellite which then beams the signal back to a receiver  then to a another tower and then finally to the cellphone of whoever I'm talking to.

A subspace phone does it directly. Furthermore it doesn't necessarily require a provider. All calls might be free once you buy the equipment. That's an enormous incentive to buy one.

Radio requires a strictly regulated set of frequencies. Not everyone can have one, meaning that the government has a reason to step in and control them. Without that need TV and radio stations could do whatever they wanted to. Not only that but they could reach anyone on the planet or even everyone in the Solar system from one small transmitter. No need to faff about with keeping affiliates happy in order for them to keep transmitting your programs. So I can lots of reasons why TV stations would change to a subspace based system once the phones had put the infrastructure in.

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And I say again - nowhere in-game have we seen a ship jump even remotely close to a planet. (aka- the planets in game were al ldistant, approximately as distant as the moon) I'm not talking jumping in in high/low orbit.

In every example the reason ships have been jumping in has had little to do with the planet itself. The only event even involving planets in FS2 is the first mission where the refugees are being escorted away from one. And in that case the ships don't even have jump drives. FS1 quite clearly states that the Shivans showed no interest in planets and were only interested in holding and controlling jump nodes. This behaviour changed later on in the game but in FS2 it appears that the Shivans have simply gone back to their original game plan.

Secondly even if I assume you are correct about gravity affecting subspace jumps that still doesn't mean subspace comms are affected. Jumps involve a transfer of mass. Comms involve a transfer of information. Even if you are correct it could be that the gravitational field has an effect on the mass of the object being transferred. Since information has no mass it wouldn't be affected in the same way.
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Offline WMCoolmon

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
We know that "Setekhs' crystalline detection arrays provide their fleets with doubled radar range within the nebular region." So I would say that it's a pretty safe assumption to say that the GTVA uses radio waves for something.

I wouldn't say it was safe. They might be, they might not.

If the captain of a GTVA destroyer says to fire all guns at the enemy are we to assume that he means chemically propelled slug throwers? Or is it just that the term guns is so engrained in the vernacular that it's now used when it's technically incorrect.

Same goes for radar. I can easily see the term being used long after the system no longer works on radio waves.

But anyway, even if the GTVA does use radio waves for radar it's unlikely that they have the power to be picked up 4.4 light years away.

You seriously want to go down the route of claiming that you don't need to revise your argument, because there's a chance that the word might've changed?

How do we know that the GTVA has faster than light comms, then? How do we know that Gamma Draconis isn't supposed to be Mars? After all, in 200 years, 'Mars' might've changed. For all we know, the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis is Jupiter. Again, maybe the name changed. And all that messy anecdotal evidence that suggests otherwise - it doesn't matter. The word might've changed.

IMHO, if you use a tactic in an argument, then you should use a tactic which will get you somewhere. This doesn't actually get you anywhere, except in to a philosophical discussion about what you can actually know, which in this case is worth basically nothing. If you want to show how 'enlightened' you are, because you know what you don't know, let's cut to the chase. We have no proof that Freespace 2 isn't simply the delusional dream of a frog hopped up on 'shrooms. Volition could say that's what it is tomorrow, and it would technically be canon.

Radar in Freespace 2 works like radar, serves the same kind of function as radar, and is called radar. The only contradictory piece of evidence is that you can see objects on the other side of a ship - but I would argue that it makes sense to change that from a gameplay and performance POV. And :V: did model in interference from asteroids, which seems reasonable to expect from radar. (Granted, I haven't read any studies of radar's effectiveness on asteroid fields)

I don't see the kind of thing happening like your guns example - where a ship explicitly states "We're picking up a vessel on radar that's in subspace".
-C

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
You have already pointed out an example of FS2 Radar doing something that real radar systems can't do. But let's go for the big one.

FS2 Radar can fuzzily pick up the Sathanas fleet in orbit around Capella several AU away!


If you want to argue that the system must be radio based radar despite the discrepancies then go ahead. I'm going to stick by what I said and say it could be, but it might not be too.

Oh and if we're talking about tactics that get you somewhere, unless you're going to claim that radio based radar signals can be detected over a 4LY distance I don't see what this has to do with the subject anyway. I've already said that even if the FS2 radar is radio based it's almost certainly still too weak to give a meaningful signal over that kind of distance.

Oh and since you quoted the Setekh's description it's only fair I quote the Charybdis.

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Ships of the GTA Charybdis class have been packed with the latest tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment from GTVI labs. Each GTVA battle group has a squadron of Charybdis-class ships assigned to it. These ships double the range of the group's standard detection arrays.

Wanna explain to me what the **** tachyon-enabled AWACS equipment is?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 06:06:05 am by karajorma »
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
And the shivans were the only design consideration when FTL comms were designed? The engineers figured that humanity were so peaceful that they would never fight amongst themeselves or with the vasudans ever again and thus didn't build basic security options into their devices. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying that security against eavesdroppers was a consideration in this particular mission. I'm saying that only a fool would design a radio system that could automatically connect to and piggyback off any friendly radio system in the vicinity. You're just asking for your ships comms to be hacked and have false orders sent if you do that. 

It's one thing to say that the Qeb would have acted as an FTL relay point using a carefully designed system that would allow the marines to send their signals back to it for relay. It's a completely different matter to say that they can simply connect to any other ships present and use their comms to talk to Command without any interaction from the pilot of said ship

I guess you never heard of secured chanells and encryption :rolleyes:

And who said the comm systems conenct automaticly to a friendly craft? It probably would require the pilot/commander confirmation.  It might have a designated reciver craft. Or it could be automatic - there are a dozen ways you can build secure data transfer systems (a friendly craft could act as a relay, without actually storing any information that passes trough or being able to listen to the conversation in question)



Quote
Even if the subspace phone/TV is more expensive (and to be honest that's a fairly big if) you are forgetting the cost of the infrastructure that keeps radio working. In order to make a cellphone call to America I have to connect to a cell phone tower. It then has to pass the signal on until it reaches a transmitter that can beam the information to a satellite which then beams the signal back to a receiver  then to a another tower and then finally to the cellphone of whoever I'm talking to.

Radio requires a strictly regulated set of frequencies. Not everyone can have one, meaning that the government has a reason to step in and control them. Without that need TV and radio stations could do whatever they wanted to. Not only that but they could reach anyone on the planet or even everyone in the Solar system from one small transmitter. No need to faff about with keeping affiliates happy in order for them to keep transmitting your programs. So I can lots of reasons why TV stations would change to a subspace based system once the phones had put the infrastructure in. [/quote]

Well, it's all conjectures on both sides, isn't it? We don't really know how big a limitation or infrastructure a subspace comm would need. Subspace comms would still need relays for system-to-system calls.


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Even if I assume you are correct about gravity affecting subspace jumps that still doesn't mean subspace comms are affected. Jumps involve a transfer of mass. Comms involve a transfer of information. Even if you are correct it could be that the gravitational field has an effect on the mass of the object being transferred. Since information has no mass it wouldn't be affected in the same way.

Who ever said it has anything to do with mass - rather with the opening of the vortex itself. In that case it doesn't matter what mass you trying to send trough - since strong gravity field prevent the vortex from being opened wether you sending a dreard or a needle trough.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Why didn't the GTVA send a message to Earth?
You have already pointed out an example of FS2 Radar doing something that real radar systems can't do. But let's go for the big one.

FS2 Radar can fuzzily pick up the Sathanas fleet in orbit around Capella several AU away!

The saths are NOT several AU away. Heck, you can see them quite clearly against the sun, so they couldn't be more than 100 or so klicks away. They are in visual range, and I doubt even shivans are dumb enough to look at the sun up close :P

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