Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: eliex on December 08, 2007, 05:05:10 pm
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Maybe it's just the gameplay, or perhaps when Alpha 1 is first introduced into the Freespace Universe (the FS1) actually the Terrans are whipping up the Vasudans (and I'm just sitting back watching the screen).
I've just got several points - WHY do the Vasudans and the Terrans during the Great War have exactly the same weapons, like Huge Terran or Terran turret. Set aside of course for the more distinctive ones like the Vasudan flux cannon.
And in FS2 - It's weird that the Shivans actually share the same missiles as the GTVA? It's not like the GTVA stole the technology of them in FS1.
And IF the Shivans were so fantastic as the Freespace 2 review indicates (that in order of most technologically advanced S,V,T)
the only reason why they technically win the Second Incursion was because there were more of them + the fact that solely, that their warship beams are the most powerful.
Am I wrong - or am i going sidetracked?
Ok . . . i'll just zip it now . . . :eek2:
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Well, it's been a while since I played FS1, but if I remember correctly, the War was not going so well for the GTVA at that point, they had been successful in pushing back the Vasudan Navy right up until the point that they revealed a new class of Destroyer, the Typhoon. As far as I remember, you start FS1 just as the GTVA is on the recoil from having its ass handed to it by the new Vasudan Destroyers.
Edit: I suspect that the weapons are all based on particle acceleration physics, whilst it's not certain, the chances are most races would develop weapons in more or less the same order we did. Kinetic, chemical, hydraulic and electromagnetic energy can all only be used in a certain number of ways, there's only so many designs for a gun that actually work. as it were.
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The war was in a stalemate. The exact year a Typhon appears is unknown IIRC.
And the same weapons are used prolly becoause someone at [V] was lazy to make new weapons.
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And the same weapons are used prolly becoause someone at [V] was lazy to make new weapons.
We all know that, but why ignore the chance to have three pages of discussion? ;)
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If i recall correctly, Vasudans are better at making engines, Terrans are better at making armor and warheads, and the Shivans are better with beams.
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That's not exactly true in general, about the Shivans having the best beams.
Alright, the Supa Sathanas BF Red has given the idea to everyone that Shivies are the ultimate beam owners.
But there's only about . . . hmmmm . . . 80 Sathanas juggernauts and not many of them participated in open combat. :p
But when a Sobek or Deimos confronts a Moloch it get's it's butt whipped.
Same goes for the Rakshasha vs Aeolus (the Mentu doesn't count because it doesn't even have a SVas).
Seriously, Vasudans are way better at beams - no wait that's not right.
VASUDANS ARE good at winning because they have the highest armour in FS2 right?
Look at the Hecate - 4 BF Red salvo and it's gone. GVD Hatshepsut - no way.
:lol:
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Shivans DO have the best beams, but my theory is that they use ALOT of energy, as most shivan ships have weak beams, or not many.
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Over 14 years, the two races would have stolen each others designs and technology anyway, or at the very least developed similar things on their own by observing each other.
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But that's a bit weird if the Interceptor missile was developed after the alliance between the vasudans and the terrans were formed; i mean how difficult is it to have a good technician's look at an engine?
Over 14 years, the two races would have stolen each others designs and technology anyway, or at the very least developed similar things on their own by observing each other.
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Well, it's been a while since I played FS1, but if I remember correctly, the War was not going so well for the GTVA at that point, they had been successful in pushing back the Vasudan Navy right up until the point that they revealed a new class of Destroyer, the Typhoon. As far as I remember, you start FS1 just as the GTVA is on the recoil from having its ass handed to it by the new Vasudan Destroyers.
You mean the GTA. The Typhon was a powerful warship but I don't recall dialogues about the Typhons overwhelming the GTA in FS1. They were difficult to destroy but they weren't defeating the GTA. I personally thought that the Typhon appeared a few years before the Great War, not right before it.
8th December: Holy Mary & Sathanas Day
9th December: GVD Typhoon Day
:lol:
That's not exactly true in general, about the Shivans having the best beams.
Alright, the Supa Sathanas BF Red has given the idea to everyone that Shivies are the ultimate beam owners.
But there's only about . . . hmmmm . . . 80 Sathanas juggernauts and not many of them participated in open combat. :p
But when a Sobek or Deimos confronts a Moloch it get's it's butt whipped.
Same goes for the Rakshasha vs Aeolus (the Mentu doesn't count because it doesn't even have a SVas).
Seriously, Vasudans are way better at beams - no wait that's not right.
VASUDANS ARE good at winning because they have the highest armour in FS2 right?
Look at the Hecate - 4 BF Red salvo and it's gone. GVD Hatshepsut - no way.
:lol:
The Sathanai(:P) didn't engage the GTVA for obvious reasons. The Moloch is more a small combat unit capable of launching fighters rather than a corvette designed to destroy other warships. I think :v: didn't give it LReds to make it defeatable. The Rakshasa has 3 SReds when it should have 4 of them. There are no beam cannons in the Mentu's table entry but they're mentioned in the tech description.
Vasudan beams are better, if I remember well.
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IIRC, Vasudan and Terran beams are so-so. Rather similar. Methinks vasudan slasshers are better, but it's been a while since I looked at the numbers :P
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The BVas is better than its Terran counterpart.
I don't know why both the SVas and the SGreen have a long recharge time :mad:
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I don't know why both the SVas and the SGreen have a long recharge time :mad:
The SRed also has a long recharge time in comparison to the LRed and BFRed.
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That's not exactly true in general, about the Shivans having the best beams.
Alright, the Supa Sathanas BF Red has given the idea to everyone that Shivies are the ultimate beam owners.
But there's only about . . . hmmmm . . . 80 Sathanas juggernauts and not many of them participated in open combat. :p
But when a Sobek or Deimos confronts a Moloch it get's it's butt whipped.
Same goes for the Rakshasha vs Aeolus (the Mentu doesn't count because it doesn't even have a SVas).
Seriously, Vasudans are way better at beams - no wait that's not right.
VASUDANS ARE good at winning because they have the highest armour in FS2 right?
Look at the Hecate - 4 BF Red salvo and it's gone. GVD Hatshepsut - no way.
:lol:
Right but then how many Hatshepsut class destroyers are there versus Hecate? The Hecates may be more numerous.
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The SRed also has a long recharge time in comparison to the LRed and BFRed.
:v: might have wanted to balance small battles involving small vessels, who knows...
Right but then how many Hatshepsut class destroyers are there versus Hecate? The Hecates may be more numerous.
No, there are more Vasudan Hatshepsut-class destroyers than Terran Hecate-class destroyers. Read the Tech Descriptions...according to them the Hatshepsut is the main Vasudan destroyer and only a handful of Typhons remain in service. The Hecate class destroyers are more recent, the 53rd Hammerheads is transfered to the Aquitaine when the player joins it.
All Orions have been succesfully refitted with new weaponry while the Typhons had problems. The Vasudans needed new destroyers while the Terrans might have realized that the Orion was still effective thanks to its compatability with beam cannons. This explains why the Orion is so common... :rolleyes:
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I'm also thinking of the GVD Hatshepsut being a better destroyer because it's better anti-cap armament, smaller profile, and, well, it looks SO much better.
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Depends...the high poly Hecate is the way the best looking destroyer in circulation, though D.G.N.D.E.
(De Gustibus Non Disputandum/a Est)
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Wasn't there a HTL Hatshepsut WIP around a while ago? What happened to it anyway?
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The SRed also has a long recharge time in comparison to the LRed and BFRed.
:v: might have wanted to balance small battles involving small vessels, who knows...
Right but then how many Hatshepsut class destroyers are there versus Hecate? The Hecates may be more numerous.
No, there are more Vasudan Hatshepsut-class destroyers than Terran Hecate-class destroyers. Read the Tech Descriptions...according to them the Hatshepsut is the main Vasudan destroyer and only a handful of Typhons remain in service. The Hecate class destroyers are more recent, the 53rd Hammerheads is transfered to the Aquitaine when the player joins it.
All Orions have been succesfully refitted with new weaponry while the Typhons had problems. The Vasudans needed new destroyers while the Terrans might have realized that the Orion was still effective thanks to its compatability with beam cannons. This explains why the Orion is so common... :rolleyes:
But there are absolutely no numbers either way so its really difficult to say. Its speculation and aside from some vague meanings in a tech room there isn't anything that definitively says one way or the other.
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But there are absolutely no numbers either way so its really difficult to say. Its speculation and aside from some vague meanings in a tech room there isn't anything that definitively says one way or the other.
The probelm is this: Even assuming the GTVA names the first ship in the class the class name, there would only be about three Hecates we know of: GTD Hecate, GTD Aquataine, and the GTD Phenocia. Aquataine survives Capella, and we know that Phenocia is destroyed, or at the least badly damaged. (There is also a GTD Independance, but that's a muti-player mission, so its canon status is questionable to say the least.)
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The BVas is better than its Terran counterpart.
I don't know why both the SVas and the SGreen have a long recharge time :mad:
SVas has a fast recharge time, even next to the SRed.
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I have found that the best way to compare beams is to look at the sustained damage (takes into account recharge time etc). You can see these numbers at http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapon_Comparison_%28FS2%29 (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapon_Comparison_%28FS2%29).
The SVas is significantly better than the SRed, which is much better than the SGreen. The VSlash is theoretically more than twice as powerful as the TerSlash (though this varies because of the slash nature of these beams). The BVas is marginally more effective than the BGreen, the LRed beats them both by a lot (3rd best beam in the game, also beats the BFGreen and LRBGreen significantly). The BFRed is much better than any other beam, beating even the second place Mjolnir Fixed Beam by more than three fold.
Look at the Hecate - 4 BF Red salvo and it's gone. GVD Hatshepsut - no way.
If the numbers are correct (I didn't check them), 4 BFReds could easily blast any destroyer out of the sky in one shot (I think two could kill even a Demon).
Shivan beams are generally much more effective because they fire for longer and have a much faster recharge time.
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Well from what i understood from the tech room the GVD Gatshepsut class destroyers are newer then the Hecate's . Also Since there are less then a gand full of Typhon's in service and those are on theyr way out we must asume that construction of replacement wa already underway at the time you join the hammer heads. The same can be said about the Orions who were beeing phased out by the Hecate class! This means that destroyers were already beeing produced somehwre in the GTVA to replace the existing ones.
And since there were so many Orion's left still in service and since we can safely asume that the GTVA did not plan on building them all at once the replacements i mean (perhaps just 2 or 3 at one time) we can asume that the number of available destroyers to the GTVA is far greater then we originaly believed. We have to keep into acount the number of destroyers lost to rebelion by the NTF sabotage destroyed in battle etc.
This would mean at least to me that the GTVA at the peak of the war with the NTF was gooing full power towards replacing the losses suffered ! That would mean that the GTVA would have to construct or already constructed more then 12 destroyers be they vasudan or terran ones. But i somehow have the distincs impression that the vasudans were a ble to build up they destroyer force a bit faster then the terrans.
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Possibly. We know the fisheads had a batter econommic recovery so it wouldn't surprise me. Not to forget that the Vasudan were replacing practicly all of their destroyers while us humans only some - which means they would have to make more of htem :P
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so bassicly terrans suck at building up theyr destroyer force! All those in favor of letting the fishheadz design and build all out warships raise they hands and say........fiiiiiiishhhhh! :P
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Noooooooooooooooooo!!!! I like the classic style of a Orion. The fisheads should keep their scaly designs for themselves.
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well we can just tell them we want the orion the way it is they can just mess around with the powergrid reactors armour weapons etc just leave the hull the way it is ! That should make the orion the most deadly destroyer in game! I mean we already know its second best destroyer in game so with the fishheadz magic they can make it the best ! then just mass produce 50 or 100 of them and we might have a chance at beating the shivans!
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first you'd need to tuck more AAAf and Flak turrets on it. then we can talk buisness.
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Adding all those additional turrets would probably mean taking off one or even two of the beam turrets.
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But there are absolutely no numbers either way so its really difficult to say. Its speculation and aside from some vague meanings in a tech room there isn't anything that definitively says one way or the other.
The probelm is this: Even assuming the GTVA names the first ship in the class the class name, there would only be about three Hecates we know of: GTD Hecate, GTD Aquataine, and the GTD Phenocia. Aquataine survives Capella, and we know that Phenocia is destroyed, or at the least badly damaged. (There is also a GTD Independance, but that's a muti-player mission, so its canon status is questionable to say the least.)
Also true.
I'm just saying that its hard to say with some sort of authority that there are definitely more Vasudan destroyers of X class than Terran destroyers of Y class because of a vague reference in a tech room or based on what we saw as the player. Volition was always about "cog in the wheel" style space shooter and we know for certain that we didn't see many things that were going on. Which is good because it opens things right up for the fan fiction/campaigns after the fact.
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The Hecate excels at killing off fighters and other smaller craft. It's not very well balanced but when you look at the GTD Orion,
it can't even kill a single fighter that is actually clever. (Terran turrets don't do anything).
It's only good at destroying cruisers and the like.
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True but there in no other terran warships that eats up and spits out large warships even destroyer classes like the Orion and i'm willing to bet that the Hattie can do pretty much almost an equal job as the Orion.
Also there would be no need to take out one or 2 beam cannons of the Orion since if it would get a total overhaul from the fishheads im willing to bet it will have more then enough power to power up any beam cannons and even a few aditional aaaf beam turretes and missile lauchers or flack turrets.
Man the GTVA really needs a dedicated battleship class for them close engagements that we saw all to often can not be avoided when facing the shivans.
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I doubt the Hecate could be as effective as an Orion. It's beam placement leave a lot to be desired for. But the Orion definately has room for improvement.
Man the GTVA really needs a dedicated battleship class for them close engagements that we saw all to often can not be avoided when facing the shivans.
;7
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What does the Hecate have to do with anything i was talking about the Hattie(Hatshesut class destroyer you know the one the fisheads built that looks like a combination between a fish and a vacuumcleaner) !
The hecate is superb at was it is meant to do and that is deploy fighters and well...er.....C&C duties cuz that is what it was built for anyway.
Also im willing to bet that a Hecate has more sophisticated sensors then any other GTVA warships except perhaps a science cruiser.
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Hecate and Orion actually compliment each other quite well. The Orion's are excellent in the broadside engagement. They could wade into a formation of cruisers and engage on all sides without too much of a problem. Or if it could position itself appropriately it could get in beside a Ravana class where its beams can't hit and rake it from stem to stern. Its a more classical battleship.
Hecates and Hatshepsuts have most of their beams oriented forwards and are better as battering ram style attacks in a head on engagement and then away. A combined fleet of all three are going to really excel at taking down enemy capital ships and flooding the area with fighters and bombers.
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A dedicated close-quarters (relatively...) battleship sounds interesting.
Imagine a Orion sized thingy jumping in from the rear, quickly coming to one side of the enemy, fire a few BGreens and fusion mortars, and get out again.
Hip, Hip, Hooray for Sea-In-Space battles!
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A dedicated close-quarters (relatively...) battleship sounds interesting.
Imagine a Orion sized thingy jumping in from the rear, quickly coming to one side of the enemy, fire a few BGreens and fusion mortars, and get out again.
Hip, Hip, Hooray for Sea-In-Space battles!
*ahem*
Like this? (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTVBS_Archangel_Mk2)
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Yep something like that even if what i imagined looks a bit different but not too much though.
Also who is willing to get me that the GTVA has its R&D departments making efforts towards reproducing shivan beam cannons or perhaps improve theyr own beam cannons using shivan tech !
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Who is willing to get you? :wtf:
You mean who is willing to dispute that? Or who is willing to agree? It kinda makes sense for teh military to try to improve their weapons..that goes without saying.
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Sorry i wanted to say who is willing to BET me! I can imagine the GTVA improving their beam cannons to some extent although nothing radical within the next 2 years max further refinements and improvements and perhaps even new beam cannons to be produced tested and implemented into the fleet within the next 3 to 7 years max. From there periodic developments refinements etc every 5 years perhaps more !
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I doubt the Hecate could be as effective as an Orion. It's beam placement leave a lot to be desired for. But the Orion definately has room for improvement.
The Hecate can bring three beam cannons to bear on a target attacking from the front, assuming the target is moving in at 20-ish degrees. The Hecate is quite far from helpless in combat. I tested a Hecate against a Typhon one time and it fire three beams against said destroyer. The Hecate's AA weaponry is also a damn sight better than the Orions. (For how much I love the damn thing, it's got terrible AA unless all the top guns are converted into flak.)
The Hecate excels at killing off fighters and other smaller craft. It's not very well balanced but when you look at the GTD Orion,
it can't even kill a single fighter that is actually clever. (Terran turrets don't do anything).
It's only good at destroying cruisers and the like.
The Orion has more main beam cannons than any other ship of its particular size in either the GTVA or the Shivan fleets, (That we've seen) and a broadside can easily badly damage Corvettes and deliver a hurting to a destroyer. The Orion mounts more BGreens (Large-caliber beam cannons) than any other Capital Ship currently in the GTVA fleet. TO get rid of such a ship is folly, to say the least.
Icefire: I do belive the reason why the it's assumed that the Hatshepsut outnumbers the Hecates is because its tech-room description states that the Vasudan side of the GTVA Navy began building the ships in 2360. We don't really knopw about when the Hecate-class began production, and given that we only know two of them existing (Aside from Independance, from the mutiplayer mission Through the Iron Gate), it's assumed that the Hecate is newer than the Vasudan destroyer.
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Ppl must remember that the Hecate was not originaly designed to be a front line heavy combat warship but rather a command and contro carrie with combat abilaties ! The Hattie on the other hand along with the Orion seem to be the heavy hitters of the fleet. Also there was a lot of talk at the begining of the FS2 and in the tech room about phasing out the orion with Hecates. Well that may be all good to hear but then again what are they gooing to replace it with? I mean the Hattie is good but its second place when it comes to the Orion . And the Hecate well considering fighterbay and aaaf abilaties it may be the best but im betting that the Hattie has an equal amoun of fighters in its fighterbays.
But not as good a aaaf defence screen. With all of these said each ship is necesarry to the GTVA now each design ! The orion is definetly one ship that has a huge amount of potential in it and a lot of room for improvements. As i said before had it over to the vasudans for some rewiring and some reactor upgrades and the Orion could easely become the most powerfull overall destroyer in game!
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Not to mention that there are no blindspots and that it has a very thin profile for a very powerful destroyer! :nod:
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But not as good a aaaf defence screen. With all of these said each ship is necesarry to the GTVA now each design ! The orion is definetly one ship that has a huge amount of potential in it and a lot of room for improvements. As i said before had it over to the vasudans for some rewiring and some reactor upgrades and the Orion could easely become the most powerfull overall destroyer in game!
You mean like this:
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTHD_Orion_Mk2
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Ppl must remember that the Hecate was not originaly designed to be a front line heavy combat warship but rather a command and contro carrie with combat abilaties ! The Hattie on the other hand along with the Orion seem to be the heavy hitters of the fleet. Also there was a lot of talk at the begining of the FS2 and in the tech room about phasing out the orion with Hecates. Well that may be all good to hear but then again what are they gooing to replace it with? I mean the Hattie is good but its second place when it comes to the Orion . And the Hecate well considering fighterbay and aaaf abilaties it may be the best but im betting that the Hattie has an equal amoun of fighters in its fighterbays.
But not as good a aaaf defence screen. With all of these said each ship is necesarry to the GTVA now each design ! The orion is definetly one ship that has a huge amount of potential in it and a lot of room for improvements. As i said before had it over to the vasudans for some rewiring and some reactor upgrades and the Orion could easely become the most powerfull overall destroyer in game!
Ahhhhhh, this grammar makes my cry! My eyes are bleeding and my text processing hard- and software (brain) exploding!
I might get a errection too.
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Sorry was in a hurry to write that and this keyboard suck big time! But you must agree phasing out a ship the most powerfull non jugg class of ship the GTVA has and hjave nothing to replace it with especialy after Capella is/would be a catastrophic decision.
If anything they should reactivate old Orions that went into conservation rewire them (this time for the love of all thats holy to the GTVA let the vasudans bring the beasts back to life. Hell if theyre too proud they can use terran beams just get the vasudan reactors and power grids along with more flack turrets! Hell al im asking is 3 or 4 more flack turrets even those should boost the aaaf defensive capabilaties of the Orion significantly or better yet get the orion some more aaaf beams . Just dont you dare touch those heavy beam cannons!
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The Hecate can bring three beam cannons to bear on a target attacking from the front, assuming the target is moving in at 20-ish degrees. The Hecate is quite far from helpless in combat.
Whomever designed the Hecate severely overestimated the effectiveness of the Terslash.......
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Well, at least there's one consolation: The TerSlash is way better than the SGreen.
Way better. :nod:
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Not really....
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The Hecate can bring three beam cannons to bear on a target attacking from the front, assuming the target is moving in at 20-ish degrees. The Hecate is quite far from helpless in combat.
Whomever designed the Hecate severely overestimated the effectiveness of the Terslash.......
You mean the one who created the table entry. If you look at the model you can easily notice that there are three big beams(BGreens). Two of them are TerSlash for obvious reasons.
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All beam turret models look the same.
The Hecate has 1 BGreen and the rest are Slashers.
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Really? When I play - and I didn't mess around with the weapons tablet, the two front beam cannons on the head of the destroyer are BGreens. The rear turrets as well is a BGreen.
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Rear turret is probably an SGreen. The lower beam on the front looks like a BGreen but slashes across the hull.
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Rear turret is probably an SGreen. The lower beam on the front looks like a BGreen but slashes across the hull.
That's a negatory. One BGreen, four TerSlashers.
Whomever designed the Hecate severely overestimated the effectiveness of the Terslash.......
Well, yeah, but it's still pretty well-gunned; More so than the Typhon and the Hatshepsut (Hatshep using more efficient beams, though.)
I'd wager a Hecate being able to take down a Typhon, but the Hatshepsut has better accuracy, and the Orion simply mounts a better array of weapons.
Well, at least there's one consolation: The TerSlash is way better than the SGreen.
Way better. :nod:
It'd be a much better beam if the re-fire time was fifteeen seconds vs. 45. You can at least claim at that point that balance would have a SGreen do low sustained damage. The SGreen as is right now a terribly inefficient weapon. It's good for raiding and getting the first shot in (Smashing another cruiser initialy or at least badly damaging a freighter.), but for not a whole lot else. SVas Mounted on the Hatshepsut is much better. (It works wonderfully if you replace the Subach Turret on the Mentu with a SVas, though that's uncanonical)
Terran beams do have the advantage of being mounted in more numbers than their Vasudan and Shivan counterparts.
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Really? When I play - and I didn't mess around with the weapons tablet, the two front beam cannons on the head of the destroyer are BGreens. The rear turrets as well is a BGreen.
Well you probably were mistaken, there is only one BGreen and the other anti-cap beams, of which there are four, are armed with TerSlashes.
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So basicly in order to ballance the Hecate they took out its teeth with a wooden bat and replaced them with slashers which we ll know how good they are .
Also i though the Hattie had more heavy firepower then the Hecate i believed its heavy beams were colse to that of the Orion but not quite there! Anyway as i said before the GTVA really needs to poor some disgusting amount of money and resources into upragind theyr beams and reactor sistems inclueding the heatsinks.
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All beam turret models look the same.
The Hecate has 1 BGreen and the rest are Slashers.
But they're the way too big to be SGreens or TerSlash. :v: changed the table to balance the Hecate. I remember the Demo Tech Description...the Hecate was "more heavily armed and armored than the Orion". The hitpoints are now 100,000 and there's just one BGreen.
In Steadfast, SthCrs and any other thing I have been working I changed the table entry of the Hecate to make it closer to the original concept(and the Hecate of the FS Universe, that is supposed to be superior to the Orion under all aspects).
Look at the Hatshepsut and its multiple BVas, look at the Mentu and its lack of beams, look at the Rakshasa and the fact that it should have 4 SReds instead of 3...
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If changes were made, they were made for a reason.
What [V] decided to go with in the end is canon. Altough I have a hard time understaning the no-beam Mentu (maby it was a fluke) it is as it is.
Tht said, in my own campaign I also beef up the Hecate by giving it MGreens instead of slashers :p
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But how many times do destroyers turn up in open combat?
Surely one would place more interest in the Admiral's tactical skill rather than the sheer firepower of their ship.
The Hecate might be pathetic by itself, but with fighters and bombers it's a different story.
Also while the hull itself is the weakest for it's type in the game, it has the strongest turret plating for it's type.
VERY difficult to knock out a Long Range Flak turret with a duo Stellitos as well as dodging all the beam turrets firing up at you.
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well yeah that may be true but then again shivans have a nasty habbit of deployng more cap ships hen they do fighters/bommbers. Lol whenver you think youre done another 2 or 3 cruisers and corvettes appear on the battlefield.
Also whyle i do agree that the tactical emphasis of the Hecate can not be denied the fact that it can not defend itself agains even a cruiser is prety pathetic for a ships that big.
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Running away from a Lilith is nothing to be ashamed off. That thing is the most overpowered and imbalanced ship out there.
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And the Sathanas, the ship with four beams that can kill a destroyer in one hit, isn't?
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If you send a cap ship against another shivan cap ship, then it's dead.
If, though you send Alpha, Beta and Gamma ( Light fighter, Heavy fighter, Bombers ), single-handedly they can kill nearly anything, given that the opponent count is rather fair.
Conclusion: Shivan are dead if a wing of fighters turn up, save for a Sathanas
GTVA cap ships are dead if another shivan cap ship turns up. :p
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And the Sathanas, the ship with four beams that can kill a destroyer in one hit, isn't?
for his size? no. Lilith is.
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Just downloaded the GTSD Paladin mod. Perhaps one of the worst super destroyers, merely because of how the original
Hecate destroyer was designed.
Even superior firepower overall and extreme armour couln't save the Paladin!! :D
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Whats the Paladin ? A super destroyer based on the Hecate?? Lol who would try something like that yioure better off with the Hattie or the Orion hell youre better of with a deimos or a Iceni class.
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The Paladin is just a severely pumped up Hecate destroyer in armour and firepower. Not to mention the fantastic new weapons that totally ruin the campaign - Return to Sol. ( I forgot who made the campaign but check the campaign list in the Freespace wiki )
Instead of TerSlashes on the sides, they use ULTRA-SGreens that last for about 6 seconds and the ULTRA-Hercs that can get up to 140 speed. AND the best of all is the Ancient ship Olympias and you can exceed the speed to 215!!! WOW !!!! :p
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wtf? i need to get my hands on this campaign!
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Ya . . . it's a very desirable campaign . . . not to mention how great the storyline is . . . on the third mission you blow up 3 destroyers hahahaha . . . :D
If you want it - simply go the Freespace Wiki, go to the user-made campaigns section and click on the Post-Capella section then go to the
Return to Sol. It's the sequel to the Incursion campaign - AHHH!! I still don't know who made the campaign!! :mad:
It's a real pity that you have to remake your entire data folder - the campaign isn't in a VP unfortunately . . . sob . . . :(
Whatever do what the readme says - the campaign is SO worth it!! :)
Oh and I'm not free advertising! :P
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Running away from a Lilith is nothing to be ashamed off. That thing is the most overpowered and imbalanced ship out there.
Well, it's not.
And here's why:
The Aeolus, a pretty light cruiser is armed with:
2 Terran Huge Turrets (2100 m range, 3.0 s between shots, 175 mps blob speed, hull damage per second - 41.7 HP/s, total 83.4 HP/s),
6x Standard Flak (1400 m, 0.15 s, 700 mps, 200 HP/s, total 1200 HP/s- although it'll max out only against big ships due to spread),
2 AAAf's (1500 m, 5.5 s, 24 HP/s, total 48 HP/s)
2 SGreens (4000 m, 45 s, 61 HP/s, total 122 HP/s).
Total damage per second is 1453.4 HP/s, deadly to both capships and strike craft, and hurts from any angle.
It has 38 000 HP, max speed is 30 m/s.
The Lilith, heaviest cruiser in the game:
Shivan Turret Laser x 5 (1250 m, 1.2 s, 250 mps, 50 HP/s, total 250 HP/s),
Shivan Cluster x 2 (450 m, 20 s, 90 mps, 3 HP/s missile+ 12 HP/s for the 8 bomblets each missile launches, total 30 HP/s)
Anti-Fighter Beam x 1 (1500 m, 5 s, 20 HP/s, total 40 HP/s),
Large Red Beam x 1 (4000 m, 10 s, 1359 HP/s),
Total firepower: 1679 HP/s (about an Aeolus plus 2 Kaysers), concentrated in a single, easily disarmable turret with a limited field of fire, defense against strike craft is a joke.
It has 75 000 HP and a top speed of 20 m/s
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No dude...Lilith is overpowered. It mounts a weapon that's 2 shipsizes above it. Even corvettes don't mount anything nearly as powerful.
Thing is, Lilith jumps in, shoots at Aeolus - Aeolus is dead.
Aeolus jumps in, shoots at Lilith - Lilith is damaged, but turns around and kills aeolus.
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I think a more acurate descriprion would be a Deimos jumps in shoots a Lilith the lilith is damaged somewhat ! then the lilith turns around shoots and the Deimos is severly damaged the second shot i believe takes it down! Hows that for overpowering a cruiser!
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And what's there to say that the Aeolus jumps out . . . say 3 kilometres by the Lilith where only beams count?
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it doesnt really matter ! Cuz flack and all the other stuff do only small damage compared to the beam cannons! I mean that thing is a cruiser but has the Hp of a corvette ! And the firepower of a corvette! Hell the deimos with all its 4 slashers firing at the lilith wont be able to take it out in time! It will do some damage perhaps get it to 50% hull but the lilith would still win hands down! For the love of bunny that thing has a destroyer beam cannon mounted on it a Large red! And ppl thing putting BG on the Deimos is called overpowering it.
Hell when the deimos has 180.000 hp and at least 2 BG on it then we can talk untill then the lilith is the most unbalanced ship in game.
Hell that thing can chase off a Hecate if the Hecate is without its fighter/bommber screen.
Aniway back to business i just though of something if the shivans have ships of equal or bigger size/volume to those of the GTVA yet they have less beam cannons almost no aaaf defences to speak of but theyr beam cannons kick ass all the time could this be a result of the beam cannon reactors?
I mean all that space must be used for something. Why not for more powerfull or simply more reactors to give those beam cannons that uber damage.
I mean the severe shortages of aaaf defences and teh fact that they have beam cannons placed just in the forward firing ark could mean they deliberately made them this way sacrificing aaaf defences and all area coverage beam cannon emplacement.
This would go some way to explain the way shivan ships are designed and they beam cannons.
However if this is the case then i believe the GTVA in theory should be able to do the same thing but they would have to make theyr ships even bigger in order to acomodate the increased number of reactors for they beam cannons since i do not believe the GTVA is willing to sacrifice they consacrated and proven designs just for the sake of making uber ships with uber beam cannons that can be taken down by 2 wings of bommbers.
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And what's there to say that the Aeolus jumps out . . . say 3 kilometres by the Lilith where only beams count?
After doing some testing:
The Aeolus had a more/less 1:4 chance of disarming the Lilith's main beam.
Without it, the Shivan's toast unless it manages to disarm the GTC with it's turret lasers. Also- if you add fighters or bombers on a disarming mission for both sides, the Lilith gets owned. Hell, it can't do much even without the Aeolus there giving fire support.
it doesnt really matter ! Cuz flack and all the other stuff do only small damage compared to the beam cannons!
Well....
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapon_Comparison_%28FS2%29
Standard Flak has a potential of 200 HP hull damage per second, and it will be close to that when attacking a cruiser, which is a big enough target to have the shells hit it. The Aeolus has 6 flak guns, giving it 1200 HP per second from flak only.
The SGreen does 61 HP per second sustained damage, the Helios can do 226.7 HP/s, and the LRed can do 1359 HP/s.
I mean that thing is a cruiser but has the Hp of a corvette ! And the firepower of a corvette! Hell the deimos with all its 4 slashers firing at the lilith wont be able to take it out in time! It will do some damage perhaps get it to 50% hull but the lilith would still win hands down! For the love of bunny that thing has a destroyer beam cannon mounted on it a Large red! And ppl thing putting BG on the Deimos is called overpowering it.
So what are Mjolnirs? Funny little thing the size of a transport, and does the damage of the Hecate's 2 front beams together... :p
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The Lilith can survive the fire from ALL of Aeoluses weapons long enough to turn and kill him with a single shot.
The opposite is not true.
Also, Mjolnirs are a bit bigger than transports and that cannon is ALL They have. No engines and only weak armor - everything was sacrificed for that big beam.
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And that's why a duo trebuchet can totally own a Mjolnir! Even fighter support can't stop that from happening!! :D
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that is true but a Mjolnir mounted on a ship is a bit more dificult to take out! So to be equl to the Lilith you would have to have the Deimos armed with at lest 2 of these beam cannons !Or even bhetter a cruiser.
also when speaking of the hecate ppl should really start refering to it as a carrier/destroyer since its emphasis is more of that of a C&C carrier heavely armed (not really in my opinion) then a destroyer. Or at least a light-ly armed destroyer.
As for the Tech i still dont have an answear to the whiole generator stuff thing above!
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Actually, I was thinking that the Ravana really should have twice the hull strength than it has now. In my remake of the Slaying Ravana mission, I pitted a GTVA fleet against a Shivan one.
The Shivan fleet consisted of about 24 fighters, the Ravana, a Moloch, a Rakshasa and a Lilith, with an additional Demon as backup.
The GTVA fleet consisted of the Psamtik, Aquitaine, two Sobeks, a Mentu, 8 bombers and 8 fighters.
Without protecting or making the Ravana invulnerable, it goes down in less than five minutes, along with the rest of the Shivan fleet.
I've got the mission attached to this post. I'm not too sure that this is the right place to put it, but I think it really does show that, against a GTVA fleet, a Shivan fleet of equal size is no match.
By the way, make sure that you check through the mission in FRED. I think my Protect events (as well as Invulnerability SEXP triggers) are still there.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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It's quite good evidence . . . that Terran beams are pieces of scrap . . .
And Vasudan beams rock!
I for one wasn't sad when the ol' Green beams were replaced with the blues . . . at least it's called "reasonable".
INFERNO RULES!!
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Well for the moment BG beams and other terran beams do only more damage per shot then theyr vasudan counterparts.
HOWEVER the vasudan beams have a faster refire rate wich in time gives them the advantage of having more shots and therefore more damage done to the enemy. Hell with oveloading a vasudan beam you could get something close to the BFG i think if that is even possble. Couple that with a faster refire rate and you have the Collie taking out the Sath in about 20 to 30% less time then needed!
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Terran beams that are in FS2, well at least they have one good advantage: Like Shivan beams, except that their prey
has slightly more than 13% health left.
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, don't mock supersition because with only 13%, a specially modified Aten trashed the Aeolus
afterwards.
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I was thinking that the BFGreen can be much, much stronger if all the energy was focused. In which case it would definitely be much more powerful than any other beam, including the BFRed and SSLBeam.
...I do like the EA's USilv beam though...that can rip a hole in the SSJ Gigas in just two shots.
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Maybe it can't be focused. See how some of the beams flicker? Makes me think they've been focused as much as possible.
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Yeah, it's always like the Shivans have to be the best at everything related to destruction . . . :(
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Hell with oveloading a vasudan beam you could get something close to the BFG i think if that is even possble.
:wtf: Overloading a beam... you just have to make a new weapon anyway... you could just make the proverbial UBER BEAM!
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Well geez Restof oveloading beams are well cannon in the FS2 universe the BFG and the LRBG are standard BG beam cannons that have been overloaded to make them more powerfull. Tis in turn results in massive increases in temp. and reactor stress. Want an example take a look at the Collie vs.Sath showdown.
Vasudan beams have a faster refire rate with a just a bit less damage. The obvious solution would be to increase the damage potential of the BVas without increasing its recharge time.
Or to put it simple let the vasudans handle the tech.
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Again. Overloaded beam cannons may be cannons, but they are also canon (notice just one 'n' between 'a' and 'o').
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Or to put it simple let the vasudans handle the tech.
Bah. The whole point of the GTVA was that the technology was shared. Letting the Vasudans handle everything will just poop out loads of An00bis and Aten-type stuff and none of the Ares and Erinyes goodness we all know and love. Note the Vasudans were good at one thing and the Terrans were good at another. The union of both technologies is key to the GTVA's technological advancement.
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Yep the Vasudans absolutely fail in the cruiser department but they seem to be good with reactors and engines. Terrans on the other hand excel at wapons and fighter manufacturing.
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Look the fact that both races share tech is the reason they got where they got . However it is also wotrhwhile to note that the terrans suck big time in certain areas.
You talk about cooperation between the 2 races . Well the most resounding succes I can think of is the Deimos class corvette . I mean it says it implements vasudan reactors and powergrids making it one of the fastest ships in the fleet and because of the extra power given off by the vasudan reactors they are able to handle a HUGE amount of firepower . Sure they have slasher beams but then again the fact there are 4 beam cannons on a ship this small is a first.
However there are also indications that terrans can produce tech of equal if not superior to the vasudan one.
The Iceni comes to mind. I mean it was just slightly larger then a corvette yet it had the speed of a corvette the armour of a destroyer and 3 BG nothe that I said 3 BG.
My guess is that such a tech level is well more expensive then vasudan tech of equal caliber . So the obvious thing would be to make a real joint venture into designing ships and weapons. Not just make them available for both races making sure they work for both races.
Standardize everithing this would make it simple cheaper and faster to build everithing.
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The Iceni comes to mind. I mean it was just slightly larger then a corvette yet it had the speed of a corvette the armour of a destroyer and 3 BG nothe that I said 3 BG.
You fail to realize the Iceni was a one-of-a-kind ship which was personally created by Admiral Bosch as his great flagship and should have been as powerful as possible. It would have cost a lot to mass-produce, may I add.
By not sharing technology, you are severely limiting yourself. Vasudan tech sucks in one area, so if you use only Vasudan tech, you are sucking in that area. Terran tech sucks in one area, so if you only use Terran tech, you are sucking in that area. Terran-Vasudan tech covers up those areas, so if you are using Terran-Vasudan tech, you are not sucking in either of those areas. It's not a hard concept.
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It's great that the GTFf Saphah was on your side for the Derelict campaign.
Shame about the Enigma though .. . :rolleyes:
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The Enigma was cool. I bet we'll see more of him in BWO... But then again Ace or somebody said they didn't like Iceni clones.
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You fail to realize the Iceni was a one-of-a-kind ship which was personally created by Admiral Bosch as his great flagship and should have been as powerful as possible. It would have cost a lot to mass-produce, may I add.
Well, actually the Iceni was being built before the NTF Rebellion. Rather, it was being built. Borsh decided he wanted it for himself. I do agree that the Iceni would cost a fortune to build, judging by the rare materials used in its hull.
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Bosch may have planned its construction for a long time before the rebellion. He probably persuaded the GTVA with help from some other high-ranking friends to build the Iceni. I don't think it was to be a mass-produced GTVA design.
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I think it was probably a prototype design whose construction Bosch oversaw. When the Rebellion began he snatched and completed it and outfitted it with all the special stuff like ETAK etc. .
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Well from what i understand the Iceni was not suposed to be a one of a kind ship it is true that it was a prototipe to be tested and it is also true that its intended purpose was sidetracked by Bosch who was in charge of completing the Iceni prototipe.
However this also raises an interesting question:
If the Iceni was a designed beeing tested and comisioned for testing by the GTVA then it is also safe to asume that it was a joint venture right?
If that is the case then we can asume that it incorporates not only the best in terran tech but also the best or some of the best tech's availabe to the vasudans right?
If that is the case and the Iceni is indeed the result of a joint venture exclueding the sidetracking of Bosch then we can be safe to asume that for a prototipe it was very succesfull no?
I mean from its design it is clear that is was built for fast deadly strikes at the enemy lines supported by fighters and bommbers from a Hecate or a Hattie perhaps acompanied by corvettes perhaps. Kinda like a small fast tactical strike fleet or something.
I mean the Iceni can definetly take some serious hits and it most definetly can outgun even a Hecate destroyer with ease in close range combat.
I mean its fast is is very powerfull and can take a few hits. I can think of a very good use for such a ship.......instead of a destroyer sent out to take down a Ravana or something send in an Iceni with a Sobek or a Deimos with a pair of fighters/bommbers for escort......! Oh man 3 BG hitting all at once. With the posibilaty of overloading them....sweeeet.
This would be a real joint venture and it would be a succesfull one at that.
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Or to put it simple let the vasudans handle the tech.
Bah. The whole point of the GTVA was that the technology was shared. Letting the Vasudans handle everything will just poop out loads of An00bis and Aten-type stuff and none of the Ares and Erinyes goodness we all know and love. Note the Vasudans were good at one thing and the Terrans were good at another. The union of both technologies is key to the GTVA's technological advancement.
But Terran stuff like the Deimos benefits of considerable Vasudan support(reactors).
Also, Terrans have more stuff for obvious reasons. The creators mostly thought about Terran ships and spacecraft so that the number of Vasudan stuff is reduced...it doesn't mean the Vasudans aren't able of building up something like the Ares or the Erynies.
As I said, it happens. I don't recall a game in which aliens had a larger variety of spacecraft. The Colossus is considered a Terran ship, for example...
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But why limit yourself?!?! What's the point in not using T/V technology WHEN YOU CAN?!?!?! To make yourself weaker?
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But why limit yourself?!?! What's the point in not using T/V technology WHEN YOU CAN?!?!?! To make yourself weaker?
Politics.
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Well that would explain a LOT of things that are screwy around FS2 when you think about it. POLITICS.
I'm for leaving everiothing up to the admirals since well they can pretty much do a much better job at supervising and creating orders for good ships . I mean Bosch comes to mind. Sure he was a bit of a genocidal maniac but hey noones perfect.
That beeing said I LOVE the Deimos simply because it is the best result of a combined effort from both terrans and vasudans to create something good. And we have to agree that the Deimos really has no equal in FS 2 .
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What, is Gordon Brown involved?
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I just like to point out the the Iceni's beams we seen might have been the result of an overload :P
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I just like to point out the the Iceni's beams we seen might have been the result of an overload :P
I doubt that. Doesn't it use BGreens as standard weaponry?
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I think it is hard to tell what "standard" weaponry on the Iceni is, considering how much it changes from mission to mission and how unbalanced it is in the tables from one side to the other, though I think it probably would use BGreens normally, judging by the size of the ship and the tech description.
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I think it is hard to tell what "standard" weaponry on the Iceni is, considering how much it changes from mission to mission and how unbalanced it is in the tables from one side to the other, though I think it probably would use BGreens normally, judging by the size of the ship and the tech description.
Hmm...I did recall seeing and hearing the Iceni using BGreens against the GVCv Asar inthe FreeSpace 2 mission "Rebels & Renegades".
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Well acording to the tech room the Iceni boasts 3 BGreens and various other weaponry on it. From flack's to aaaf beams however its aaaf defences are so bad they are no better then those of the Orion's. However for a ship its size it has more firepower then a Hecate class destroyer (fighter/bommber's not inclueded) I mean there is no ship in FS 2 at least no GTVA ship aside from perhps the Orion that can outgun it in thi department since the Iceni can bring to bear on a single target ALL 3 BGreens.
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*pushes old thread*
One of the few things that really annoy me about FS is the lack of love for detail. In FS1 it is okay for me that there seem to be no specific vasudan weapons. I mean, they are at war for 14 years, so the easy explanation that they just stole technology from each other, works fine here. But I do not like that Shivans just use the same secondaries as well - they even use Cyclops torpedos in FS2, how shiftless that is!! (http://www.smileyhome.de/smilies/boese/wallbash.gif)
What also makes me rolling my eyes regularly is that the GTVA doesn't seem to use any primaries or secondaries developed by a Vasudan contractor - except for the Akethon.
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*pushes old thread*
One of the few things that really annoy me about FS is the lack of love for detail. In FS1 it is okay for me that there seem to be no specific vasudan weapons. I mean, they are at war for 14 years, so the easy explanation that they just stole technology from each other, works fine here. But I do not like that Shivans just use the same secondaries as well - they even use Cyclops torpedos in FS2, how shiftless that is!! (http://www.smileyhome.de/smilies/boese/wallbash.gif)
What also makes me rolling my eyes regularly is that the GTVA doesn't seem to use any primaries or secondaries developed by a Vasudan contractor - except for the Akethon.
It's just names.... Would you feel better if they made duplicates of every weapon and the only thing different would be the name?
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For the bombs, yes.
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No worries, FSU is on it. Look at the Shivan bombs thread. They've got Shivan Bombs!
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I know. I started that thread.
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Oh right. Forgot.
*mutters something and walks away*
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Well acording to the tech room the Iceni boasts 3 BGreens and various other weaponry on it. From flack's to aaaf beams however its aaaf defences are so bad they are no better then those of the Orion's. However for a ship its size it has more firepower then a Hecate class destroyer (fighter/bommber's not inclueded) I mean there is no ship in FS 2 at least no GTVA ship aside from perhps the Orion that can outgun it in thi department since the Iceni can bring to bear on a single target ALL 3 BGreens.
AFAIK it was 2 BGreens on one target. The Orion has two more TerSlashes on one target, though.
2 BGreen + 2 TerSlash = dead Iceni.
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Iceni has about the same AAA defenses as a Fenris, maybe a Leviathan.
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What also makes me rolling my eyes regularly is that the GTVA doesn't seem to use any primaries or secondaries developed by a Vasudan contractor - except for the Akethon.
I'd point out that we are seeing the Terran designations for the weapons, of course they look Terran. For all we can actually prove the Kayser, Prometheus, and Circe are being built by Vausdan companies.
Or, considering the comments on the feebleness of most Vasudan warships in the Aten's techroom entry for FS1, it might be that the Terrans are simply better at weapons design.
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I seem to recall that if a **** is in front of it the Iceni can let loose with all 3 BGreens . (someone correct me if i'm wrong) Oh and i read about someone stating that the Iceni is an unbalaced ship. (Do you really wannna start the whole Lilith debate all over again? )
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Iceni has about the same AAA defenses as a Fenris, maybe a Leviathan.
Less. A Levi has 4 AAAf. A Fenris has 2. The Iceni has 0. Its closer to the Moloch, with just some blobs and flak. (except in Rebels and Renegades. In that scenario, its probably got as good anti-fighter defense as a Deimos).
However, it has MUCH better antifighter defense than an Orion (which has NONE in my books). You can fly along both broadsides, the front and the rear, and never come under fire from more than a single Terran Turret... The AAAf beams are on the top and bottom surfaces, and are worthless. the Orion has no flak to its name. (Except the Uhuru, which has flak instead of THT's).
I seem to recall that if a **** is in front of it the Iceni can let loose with all 3 BGreens . (someone correct me if i'm wrong) Oh and i read about someone stating that the Iceni is an unbalaced ship. (Do you really wannna start the whole Lilith debate all over again? )
No, the Iceni can bring a Maximum of two. The turrets do NOT have a 180 field of fire and cannot fire forward at all. The Iceni's frontal turrets are blobs.
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Say what?? So oki you have the 2 turrets on the sides. and the third is where exactly?
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2 right, 1 left.
Go replay R&R and see the Iceni cut loose a pair of BGreens on the Vasudans (but 90% it won't seem to kill off the Sobek).
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No way what kind of and idiot uses that kinf od placement for the beam cannons. That is ridiculous. Ther should of been one on each side and one in the front. Man thats stupid. I ALWAYS BELIEVED that was how the 3 BGreens were deployed on the hull of the Iceni. Aman the Iceni really need a new set of beam emplacements.
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I believe it was changed for the R&R mission as to make it easier (???). This constant changing of weapon settings on capships in the retail campaign is driving me nuts sometimes. I know, the drama and suspense are a primary aim, but they could be at least a bit consistent with what they do :P
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Thats wishfull thinking. We can hope for it but that is all we will ever get hope. Like we can hope for some god damn proper beams for the GTVA . :P
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No way what kind of and idiot uses that kinf od placement for the beam cannons. That is ridiculous. Ther should of been one on each side and one in the front. Man thats stupid. I ALWAYS BELIEVED that was how the 3 BGreens were deployed on the hull of the Iceni. Aman the Iceni really need a new set of beam emplacements.
The Orion doesn't have its beams balanced on all sides either...
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The Orion is asymetrical, though.
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Thats wishfull thinking. We can hope for it but that is all we will ever get hope. Like we can hope for some god damn proper beams for the GTVA . :P
Mjolnirs anybody ? :D
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Thats wishfull thinking. We can hope for it but that is all we will ever get hope. Like we can hope for some god damn proper beams for the GTVA . :P
Oh, c'mon. The BFGreen and BGreen are pretty awesome. Although the LTerSlash and SGreen are pretty much immense pieces of crap, the GTVA has the better AAA beams and have the great Vasudan ones.
Oh yeah, don't forget about the Mjolnirs. Like VIP said.
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As soon as you can show me a GTVA cap ship sporting a Mjolnir beam cannon im gooing to say hurray finaly some good beams. But since the entire beam canon is the size of a cruiser (for the moment) its not very practical to mount it on anithing onther then a SD or a Colossus class warship. Hell even Destroyers such as the Hecate and the Hattie would have problems mounting more then 2 of them. Perhaps 3 with some radical redesigning of the interior.
Sure the Mjolnir is a great beam but its for the moment not practical for warships . I asume it has somethuing to do with the powerrequirements for it. Perhaps some ship that is built aroun them with advanced more powerfull reactors a lot more powerfull could do the trick. But such a ship has yet o be developed.
Also agreed about the AAAF beams. Especialy the ULTRA. ;)
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I believe it was changed for the R&R mission as to make it easier (???). This constant changing of weapon settings on capships in the retail campaign...
Means that each and every configuration is cannon... :P
How was the Iceni armed in the mission you escort it?
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The Iceni's default table is WEIRD. Everything is mis-placed.
In R&R mission, the Iceni mounts 3 AAAfs, 2 Standard Flaks, 3 BGreens, and a lot of blobs. Also note that the placement of the BGreens, most notably, are shuffled. Where the BGreens originally were are now AAAfs.
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As soon as you can show me a GTVA cap ship sporting a Mjolnir beam cannon im gooing to say hurray finaly some good beams. But since the entire beam canon is the size of a cruiser (for the moment) its not very practical to mount it on anithing onther then a SD or a Colossus class warship. Hell even Destroyers such as the Hecate and the Hattie would have problems mounting more then 2 of them. Perhaps 3 with some radical redesigning of the interior.
Sure the Mjolnir is a great beam but its for the moment not practical for warships . I asume it has somethuing to do with the powerrequirements for it. Perhaps some ship that is built aroun them with advanced more powerfull reactors a lot more powerfull could do the trick. But such a ship has yet o be developed.
Also agreed about the AAAF beams. Especialy the ULTRA. ;)
It can't be that difficult to build a Mjolnir into a capship. Even a new corvette could use it: it's fully self-supporting (including reactors and even shielding, IIRC) and 'only' cruiser-sized.
No, the real problem with the Mjolnir is probably that- They're incredibly expensive (they're almost never used) and/or
- They only fire straightforward (the tracking beam is only half as good), which makes them worthless for anything above bomber size.
Means that each and every configuration is cannon... :P
Funny typo in a thread about weapons :D
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It can't be that difficult to build a Mjolnir into a capship. Even a new corvette could use it: it's fully self-supporting (including reactors and even shielding, IIRC) and 'only' cruiser-sized.
No, the real problem with the Mjolnir is probably that- They're incredibly expensive (they're almost never used) and/or
- They only fire straightforward (the tracking beam is only half as good), which makes them worthless for anything above bomber size.
Orrrr...
- The weapon is not considered safe enough for shipboard use; it is prone to catastrophic overloads/meltdowns/whathaveyous because it is pushing GTVA beam cannon technology to, and sometimes beyond, the limit.
- The Mjolnir is a fantasically powerful weapon that produces an equally fantastically huge amount of heat and requires large, complicated radiator systems. Radiator systems which are not practical to install on a warship. Armor and radiators don't go together. We all know how vunerable the Mjolnir is to fighter and bomber attack.
- The technology used to push the beam to such power levels puts out interference that A: makes the beam impractical to "steer" and B: would also interfere with other ship systems. The Mjolnir is little more than a reactor, a beam, a crude targeting device (assuming it's not given firing commands by remote, and it may be) and support systems for the beam. A warship requires propulsion, secondary weapons, sensors, life support, communications, and a host of other systems that would have to be heavily shielded, introducing unacceptable weight, or the Mjolnir would have to be heavily shielded, also introducing unacceptable weight...or perhaps by trapping the interference making the weapon itself suffer from its own byproducts.
- Relating to the radiator point, the Mjolnir's stripped-down design, which is what allows it much of its power by not encasing it in stuff that traps heat, also means that the reactor and perhaps the weapon itself put out dangerous, harmful levels of radiation.
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There's still nothing wrong with strapping a Mjolnir to the side of a ship. As in, letting the ship drag the thing along - its entirely external, its just using the ship to move.
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Well i can fully agree with both the power needed for the Mjolnir and with the cost thing. However since the Mjolnir beam cannon tech is still somewhat new and not actualy that well worked out we may have yet to see Mjolnir beam cannons that can actualy be mounted on ships. I mean with the obvious lack of power from the BGreens or rather the huge amount of time it takes to refire the Mjolnir would be tested and improved a lot.
At least that is what i would do. Therefore in theory it should give the GTVA an adequate replacement for the Bgreen's within a few years. Mounting them on ships and the price of the new beam canons is another thing altogether. I think some sort of limited use of it for the more advanced warships would be the first thing. I mean the GTVA needs a heavy hitter in the fleet to replace the Orion's shoes. So something with een more HP the the Hattie and armed with Mjolnir beam cannons would be the ideal thing.
On the other hand wasnt the Hattie suposed to have 5 heavy beam canons? All i see is 3 BVas and 1 SVas. Any ideas on this?
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:wtf: 3 BVas and 1 SVas are all it has.
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In 2360, Allied Command commissioned the first of the GVD Hatshepsut-class destroyers. The Vasudan contractor Akheton designed the Hatshepsut to efficiently integrate the new beam cannon. The process of retrofitting the older Typhon-class warships yielded vessels prone to system failures and reactor overloads. Though a handful of modified Typhons remain in service, the Hatshepsut has taken over as the primary Vasudan destroyer. With 24 turrets, 5 beam cannons, and 2 fighterbays, destroyers such as GVD Psamtik of Deneb's 13th Battle Group serve at the vanguard of the modern Vasudan fleet.
this is what i mean.
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Maybe it's just the gameplay, or perhaps when Alpha 1 is first introduced into the Freespace Universe (the FS1) actually the Terrans are whipping up the Vasudans (and I'm just sitting back watching the screen).
I've just got several points - WHY do the Vasudans and the Terrans during the Great War have exactly the same weapons, like Huge Terran or Terran turret. Set aside of course for the more distinctive ones like the Vasudan flux cannon.
And in FS2 - It's weird that the Shivans actually share the same missiles as the GTVA? It's not like the GTVA stole the technology of them in FS1.
And IF the Shivans were so fantastic as the Freespace 2 review indicates (that in order of most technologically advanced S,V,T)
the only reason why they technically win the Second Incursion was because there were more of them + the fact that solely, that their warship beams are the most powerful.
Am I wrong - or am i going sidetracked?
Ok . . . i'll just zip it now . . . :eek2:
I think it might have something to do with some of the weapons manufacturers double-dealing. After all, both societies seem capitalistic.
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In 2360, Allied Command commissioned the first of the GVD Hatshepsut-class destroyers. The Vasudan contractor Akheton designed the Hatshepsut to efficiently integrate the new beam cannon. The process of retrofitting the older Typhon-class warships yielded vessels prone to system failures and reactor overloads. Though a handful of modified Typhons remain in service, the Hatshepsut has taken over as the primary Vasudan destroyer. With 24 turrets, 5 beam cannons, and 2 fighterbays, destroyers such as GVD Psamtik of Deneb's 13th Battle Group serve at the vanguard of the modern Vasudan fleet.
this is what i mean.
:v: probably changed the amount of beam cannons on the Hattie after the tech description was made. Same with the Mentu, of which the tech room claims it has anticapship beams while in reality it hasn't.
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:v: probably changed the amount of beam cannons on the Hattie after the tech description was made. Same with the Mentu, of which the tech room claims it has anticapship beams while in reality it hasn't.
...well, they were trying to finish the game in under a year. You cannot expect them to do everything perfectly. :rolleyes:
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...they should've done it the Blizzard way. It's done when it's done. And, they should've done a better job promoting it. How about a few snips from the FS1 Cutscenes and perhaps a Nebula-cloaked Sathy running the words "They're back" over as only a Sathy can do. xD :bigshiver:
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Oh, and about the Hatshepsut...it also has some AAAfs, doesn't it? Two of them...hang on, four and two makes...six? :confused:
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:wtf:
The Hatshepsut has 4 AAAfs, 3 BVas and 1 SVas.
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:wtf:
The Hatshepsut has 4 AAAfs, 3 BVas and 1 SVas.
Oops... :nervous: