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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on January 03, 2008, 05:50:20 am

Title: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 03, 2008, 05:50:20 am
That's the approximate US debt as of now, no doubt it will go up by a rediculous number as I am typing this.


http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Mefustae on January 03, 2008, 05:56:51 am
The current administration knows they're going to lose to the Dems this year, so they're just digging the hole a little deeper so they can play the "lower taxes" card in 2012 after the Democrats raise them to pay this **** off.

Crafty buggers! :p
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 03, 2008, 06:11:52 am
When do you guys think it will reach 10 trillion? 2008? 2009?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Windrunner on January 03, 2008, 06:17:37 am
When do you guys think it will reach 10 trillion? 2008? 2009?

Probably when Bush steps down as president.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Nuke on January 03, 2008, 06:36:57 am
its not just the government who flushes the money down the toilet. its mr and mrs joe blow credit card users.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Rand al Thor on January 03, 2008, 06:39:25 am
Already gone up another 53 million. That's scary.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 03, 2008, 07:31:23 pm
(http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/history.gif)

The overall history. It looks an aweful lot like an exponential curve. The only question is when does Y = infinity?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: WMCoolmon on January 03, 2008, 08:15:38 pm
Interesting. Dramatic rises at the end of World War 2 and the end of the Cold War, then it seems to start to level off, and then it increases by 50% during the Bush administration.

Are these valid connections?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 03, 2008, 08:20:06 pm
It leveled off between 95 and 2000 because clinton balanced the budget in those years. It kept going up  (though not as fast as it is now) until that point.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: IceFire on January 03, 2008, 10:02:50 pm
I always find it strange that the Republicans are always talking about how the Democrats spend so much money and how the Republicans are fiscally conservative but they end up spending more money.  Its like the Liberals and the Conservatives up here...the Liberals were the ones that finally balanced the budget and paid down the debt after the Conservatives nearly spent us into a hole.

Isn't there a happy medium...fiscally conservative and socially centered?

But really...how do you pay down 9 trillion dollars in debt.  Thats a huge hole to be in...if any of the nations buying up the debt wanted it back it'd...be....very bad.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 03, 2008, 10:09:10 pm
Well, just looking at it from mathmatical POV, at somepoint it will hit a wall because an exponential curve has a limit.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Polpolion on January 03, 2008, 10:15:01 pm
Hey, according to the thread title, it's gone down about 25 billion dollars! Or equally as likely, I'm misreading it and it went up almost 100 trillion dollars.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 03, 2008, 10:25:43 pm
From the website:

Quote
Q: I looked at the Debt Clock yesterday and I think it showed a higher value than it does today. Is the Debt going down?

    A: Unfortunately, no. On average, the Debt is always rising but there are some day to day fluctuations which can cause the debt to actually go down for a day or two. The long term averages however, show that the Debt just keeps getting higher and higher.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Polpolion on January 03, 2008, 10:56:49 pm
From the website:

Quote
Q: I looked at the Debt Clock yesterday and I think it showed a higher value than it does today. Is the Debt going down?

    A: Unfortunately, no. On average, the Debt is always rising but there are some day to day fluctuations which can cause the debt to actually go down for a day or two. The long term averages however, show that the Debt just keeps getting higher and higher.

That's like saying there wasn't 50,000 US casualties in Vietnam because there was 58,000. Well no, not really, but I never said that it was a long term trend. I simply stated that the debt went down 25 billion dollars.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 03, 2008, 11:41:35 pm
Quote
That's like saying there wasn't 50,000 US casualties in Vietnam because there was 58,000.


So what you're saying is that in Vietnam we had dead people coming back to life? 
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Polpolion on January 03, 2008, 11:49:02 pm
No. 58,000 > 50,000. 58,000 - 8,000 = 50,000, so there were at least 50,000 casualties, plus the 8,000 equals 58,000.

GAH!!!

In simpler terms: You have 10 apples. Do you have 7 apples?

EDIT: You have 10 apples. Susie wants 7 apples. Can you give her 7 apples? If you can, you must have 7 apples. If you can't, you don't have 7 apples. Let's count to 10 to see if we have 7 apples: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. Yes, we do have seven apples. You give Susie 7 apples.

Just because there seemed to still be some confusion on the issue...

EDIT2: Now there's too many analogies!!! :shaking:
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: WMCoolmon on January 03, 2008, 11:56:05 pm
I think the appropriate analogy is "one step forward, two steps back".
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: haloboy100 on January 04, 2008, 01:01:26 am
I think the appropriate analogy is "one step forward, two steps back".
i understand that one.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: CP5670 on January 04, 2008, 01:11:28 am
Well, just looking at it from mathmatical POV, at somepoint it will hit a wall because an exponential curve has a limit.

You fail at math.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 04, 2008, 01:43:21 am
Ok, care to explain?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: achtung on January 04, 2008, 05:28:27 am
Ok, care to explain?


They're infinite?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Admiral_Stones on January 04, 2008, 06:42:01 am
There you see it. U.S.A. is going down the drain.
<patriotism> I dream of a world, governed by justice and tolerance, governed by Switzerland. <patriotism/>
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: karajorma on January 04, 2008, 08:19:04 am
and financed by stolen Jewish gold? :p
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Admiral_Stones on January 04, 2008, 08:34:53 am
You were all so stupid to store your money in swiss bank accounts... soon it will be all ours. Mwuhaha.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 04, 2008, 09:09:37 am
Ok, care to explain?


They're infinite?

Yeah, but when y=infinity it stops progressing on the x axis and reaches it's limit, where it will forever get closer and closer to it but not actually reach it, hence the wall.

And for the record I got an A in high school calculus. :p
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Ghostavo on January 04, 2008, 09:11:56 am
Ok, care to explain?


They're infinite?

Yeah, but when y=infinity it stops progressing on the x axis and reaches it's limit, where it will forever get closer and closer to it but not actually reach it, hence the wall.

And for the record I got an A in high school calculus. :p

Y = infinite when X = infinite...  :blah:

Exponencial functions don't have asymptotes.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 04, 2008, 09:25:39 am
I stand corrected. Been a very long time since high school.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: haloboy100 on January 04, 2008, 11:46:07 am
lol
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Janos on January 04, 2008, 11:47:33 am
I think the appropriate analogy is "one step forward, two steps back".
i understand that one.

quite an achievement
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: haloboy100 on January 04, 2008, 11:55:16 am
Which is why i've gone so far, only to stumble back even more...
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: TrashMan on January 04, 2008, 12:04:12 pm
Every country has a huge debt. They way modern economy works that debt never gets played off becoause other countries don't pay theirs.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: karajorma on January 04, 2008, 12:34:56 pm
Which makes you wonder why they don't just stick all the info in a computer and get it to cancel large chunks of the debt out so that they're not paying interest on it. :D
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Edward Bradshaw on January 04, 2008, 03:40:46 pm
Maybe they need to stop spending billions attacking other countries... ...

According to that site:

"As you can see, the largest slice of the pie, over 40%, is owed to the Federal Reserve Bank "

SIGH @ Federal Reserve.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Unknown Target on January 04, 2008, 03:44:57 pm
IIRC modern currency's value itself is based off of debt, is it not?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Edward Bradshaw on January 04, 2008, 03:48:05 pm
IIRC modern currency's value itself is based off of debt, is it not?

It is. The Federal Reserve charges interest on the money it loans to the government though thats why, apparently, debt owed to the Fed takes up the largest amount of total debt
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: haloboy100 on January 04, 2008, 05:00:31 pm
thats why the Canadian dollar is now stronger then the American one. And it still is IIRC
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Mobius on January 04, 2008, 05:04:00 pm
Ok, care to explain?


They're infinite?

Yeah, but when y=infinity it stops progressing on the x axis and reaches it's limit, where it will forever get closer and closer to it but not actually reach it, hence the wall.

And for the record I got an A in high school calculus. :p

Those are the basics...only n00bs ignore them. Ah..."infinity"...they use my symbol to represent it ;7

I like Maths mostly because of Mobius, really :lol:
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 04, 2008, 06:55:30 pm
IIRC modern currency's value itself is based off of debt, is it not?

It is. The Federal Reserve charges interest on the money it loans to the government though thats why, apparently, debt owed to the Fed takes up the largest amount of total debt

Which is also where your income taxes are going.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Edward Bradshaw on January 05, 2008, 02:51:19 am
Which is also where your income taxes are going.

Despite being British, thats why I like Ron Paul (mostly). Its a shame he's a Creationist and (apparently) against Seperation of Church and State. Sigh. But then I dont get to vote in a US election anyway.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Bobboau on January 05, 2008, 03:28:42 am
I just did some quick calculations and it's climbing at a rate of $16,108.10 a second, that's roughly enough money to put me through collage.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: captain-custard on January 05, 2008, 03:42:58 am
if we cancel all debt then big countrys wont be able to f*** small countries over, and if we cant f*** small countries then the world bank goes bust and so does the whole western commerce driven culture , mmmmmmmm

so debt = commerce=debt =f***ed
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Bobboau on January 05, 2008, 03:48:09 am
if we canceled all debt then that would include our debt and the intrest on said debt could go into even more military spending which in turn cwould be spent on invading other weaker countries.

so no.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Edward Bradshaw on January 05, 2008, 05:01:19 am
The only reason a bank can loan you money is because they have your promise that you will pay it back. If the banks cancelled the debts owed to them they'd have nothing to base your money on.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: TrashMan on January 05, 2008, 05:20:58 am
*Attempts to hate modern economy to death*
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Janos on January 05, 2008, 05:40:44 am
*Attempts to hate modern economy to death*

you don't want to even know how ****ed up some other systems are
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Nuke on January 05, 2008, 05:58:34 am
its all just part of the downward spiral
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Kosh on January 05, 2008, 08:50:25 am
Wasn't there a documentary called "Money as debt" about that?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Edward Bradshaw on January 05, 2008, 09:29:22 am
Wasn't there a documentary called "Money as debt" about that?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: karajorma on January 06, 2008, 07:43:11 pm
The only reason a bank can loan you money is because they have your promise that you will pay it back. If the banks cancelled the debts owed to them they'd have nothing to base your money on.


I didn't say cancel the debts. I said cancel out the debts. If US owes China, China owes Japan and Japan owes the US at least one of those countries doesn't actually have a debt.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Edward Bradshaw on January 06, 2008, 08:33:36 pm
I didn't say cancel the debts. I said cancel out the debts. If US owes China, China owes Japan and Japan owes the US at least one of those countries doesn't actually have a debt.

Ah ok. Well I dont know if that would make all that much difference. As you can see from the pie chart on the site (assuming its accurate) most of the money is owed to the Federal Reserve. And the government keep spending money on their war on terror, so that means borrowing more money from the Fed and so the money it loans to the government at interest keeps going up and up on top of the usual debt increase.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: karajorma on January 07, 2008, 02:15:05 am
Don't know if it would help the US but someone has to be better off that way. :D
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Admiral_Stones on January 07, 2008, 05:47:40 am
My dad told me that the civilian debt is even higher.
Hypothecs not being payed, Credit Card bills and so on.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: TrashMan on January 07, 2008, 09:37:58 am
*starts bleeding from the nose and collapses*
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Grizzly on January 09, 2008, 08:24:34 am
So bassicly, judging by the figure from page 1. Everyone who votes for lower taxes is a Bleep?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Janos on January 09, 2008, 09:56:49 am
So bassicly, judging by the figure from page 1. Everyone who votes for lower taxes is a Bleep?

whats bleep precious
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Fearless Leader on January 10, 2008, 12:08:52 am
All I know is that the US government needs to spend $100,000 of that on giving me a raise, I mean is that that much to ask for?
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Waistless on January 10, 2008, 08:53:23 am
The solution to U.S. debt is simple, and it's what the Bush admin. has been doing since it was in power.

The U.S. just has to overspend all hell on military, then when it's crunch time give a giant "F*** YOU!" to the people of which it has to pay debt to :beamz:


Oh, and I fail at economics. :D
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Grizzly on January 11, 2008, 06:15:32 am
So bassicly, judging by the figure from page 1. Everyone who votes for lower taxes is a Bleep?

whats bleep precious

I meant Stupid Moron, but I didn't want to swear.

Yet.
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: Grizzly on January 11, 2008, 06:18:51 am
I just did some quick calculations and it's climbing at a rate of $16,108.10 a second, that's roughly enough money to put me through collage.

You could ask them to give you that much, it wouldn't matter much anyway!

(Use that as an argument and you might become an international terorist, but oké).
Title: Re: 9,233,233,019,675.61
Post by: DeepSpace9er on January 12, 2008, 10:42:02 am
Congress will fix this problem with a decree that states that the Federal Government cannot legally be in debt, therefore any 'debt' previously associated with the US government is void.