Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Kazan on January 05, 2008, 09:18:08 pm
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So, with the massive failure that the supercapital ship the Colossus turned out to be.. do you think that the GTVA would design a new class of supercapital learning from the strengths of the Sathanis or do you think they would shift toward greater firepower in a smaller package.
Personally I think that tacticians would learn not to put all their eggs in one basket and R&D would shift toward making more efficient and higher powered beam cannons, or other powerful weaponry, that could be mounted on a greater number of smaller ships (Corvette or Destroyer class) that could out maneuver the primary field of fire of a supercapital and strike at the weaknesses in it's defense.
For example - the Colossus was extremely powerful in broadside, whereas the broadside firepower of the Sath is about equivalent to that of a Demon. Whereas we all know anything in front of a Sath is toast.
(Also of note: the BIG ASS turret on the front of the Big C that was obviously supposed to be a terrain super-beam that instead they put this tiny ass blob weapon into.. WTF)
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So, with the massive failure that the supercapital ship the Colossus turned out to be.. do you think that the GTVA would design a new class of supercapital learning from the strengths of the Sathanis or do you think they would shift toward greater firepower in a smaller package.
Personally I think that tacticians would learn not to put all their eggs in one basket and R&D would shift toward making more efficient and higher powered beam cannons, or other powerful weaponry, that could be mounted on a greater number of smaller ships (Corvette or Destroyer class) that could out maneuver the primary field of fire of a supercapital and strike at the weaknesses in it's defense.
For example - the Colossus was extremely powerful in broadside, whereas the broadside firepower of the Sath is about equivalent to that of a Demon. Whereas we all know anything in front of a Sath is toast.
(Also of note: the BIG ASS turret on the front of the Big C that was obviously supposed to be a terrain super-beam that instead they put this tiny ass blob weapon into.. WTF)
And the Colossus doesn't have all of its turrets either.
What I would do is make a High-poly Colossus with the right amount of guns and have super beam cannons that outmatch the Sathanas. :P
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so you would think they would opt toward the better-designed supercapital
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I think they'd develop a small, efficient beam almost as powerful as a BFred, put it on a corvette, along with a healthy dose of AAA beams, flak, and a trebuchet-esque missile.
Maybe an armament of:
1x Newgreen beam
6x AAAfs
8x standard flak
4x trebuchet launchers
90k hitpoints
20 to 30 m/s speed.
Maybe a small fighterbay.
Yeah, this'd be more like a frigate. Not quite as expensive as a destroyer, quicker to produce, and fit for a wider range of roles.
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Golgotha...destroyer sized and optimized for forward (and variable) firepower with limited fighterbay and modest broadside capabilities. Thats my take.
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Golgotha...destroyer sized and optimized for forward (and variable) firepower with limited fighterbay and modest broadside capabilities. Thats my take.
Figures since your the BWO Admin. :p
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Golgotha...destroyer sized and optimized for forward (and variable) firepower with limited fighterbay and modest broadside capabilities. Thats my take.
that ship doesn't exist yet since you haven't released :P
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This topic has been made before, and other people have made the point that I will now make: The Colossus was a failure at battling Sathanas juggernauts. It was not designed to battle Sathanas juggernauts. It was designed to take down a Lucifer, something it could do easily with its beam cannons. It destroyed numerous NTF warships. It nearly won the civil war, and destroyed a Sathanas mostly on its own.
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Actually what I think Kazan is asking is "Where do you think the GTVA will go next in ship designing?".
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Actually what I think Kazan is asking is "Where do you think the GTVA will go next in ship designing?".
:yes:
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I'm of the opinion that anything above destroyer configuration would mostly be symbolic. In times of peace, its duties would be ceremonial; in war, it would be effective as a morale booster, even if not tactically viable.
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Remember one thing. There is nothing to say that the Sathanas is the big boy in the Shivan fleet. I recall talking to a V admin in the PXO lobby one day back in the days when they were tossing around ideas for (insert forbidden 3 characters here). The only thing he said about it when asked about Shivan planet killers was think bigger.
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They mentioned ships so large they affected the battlefield like a planetary body, right? That bespeaks vessels so huge it seems unlikely the GTVA could produce them.
Probably Shivan, then.
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I'm of the opinion that anything above destroyer configuration would mostly be symbolic. In times of peace, its duties would be ceremonial; in war, it would be effective as a morale booster, even if not tactically viable.
Like the Hindenberg was for the Nazis. Still, I think ceremony would have to come second when there's as clear and present danger. Personally, I see cruisers dying replaced by gunships, Corvettes powering along, destroyers splitting into carrier dominated and combat dominated (with the Hecate being the Carrier - the Orion replacement would be combat dominated) and some kind of new monitor type ships for taking out Saths. That plus RBCs becoming the tactical gods of the next few decades.
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Actually... Seeing as the only thing GTVA had edge in was fighters. Granted, they had Alpha 1. But still, if you read between the lines, GTVA pilots managed great against a numerically superior enemy.
I think bombers and smaller-than-cruiser-gunships will be tomorrows powerword. Cruiser might evolve in to agile antifighter platforms that can quickly get away from big guns. And quickly shift to block attacking bomber formations. Corvettes are the designated anticap slash multitask platform. And destroyers focus on breeding fighters ad infinitum.
Depending on how history plays out. They might have need for fighter carrying heavy hitter. For spearheading invasions and such.
However. If someone finds a way to shield capital ships... It may become apparent that fighters and bombers aren't enough. Then they'd need something to bring ****load of firepower in a short amount of time. But I won't go there since I find the idea repulsive. Like shields in general.
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Golgotha...destroyer sized and optimized for forward (and variable) firepower with limited fighterbay and modest broadside capabilities. Thats my take.
*IceFire is dragged away by Section Three Agents*
Admiral Kepler wishes to assure everyone that there are no 'black projects' being developed by the Alliance. Transparency is important to the GTVI.
Anyway:
One of the things Volition was talking about was "capships so big they act like the surface of a planet." If anything the Sathanas is their version of a Faustus ;)
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GTVA ships are fine the way they are . Kinda . They just need more powerfull reactors and something that would make their beam cannons work at a much longer range . And probably some "artillery" ships , that can fire from an extremely long range , not having to worry of the enemy reaching them in time .
However bombers are much better than capitals . Except for the fact that you'd loose a lot of them in every deployment and that they cost a lot , they can take out any capital ship .
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I guess Shivans aren't too selective on their targets.. Maybe GTVA should produce a fleet of big dummy ships consisting mainly from solid rock, to give Sath cannons something to pound away :P
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I guess Shivans aren't too selective on their targets.. Maybe GTVA should produce a fleet of big dummy ships consisting mainly from solid rock, to give Sath cannons something to pound away :P
QFT!
and while the Sathanases pound at teh big "dangerous" targets, the small ones chip away! :lol:
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The solid rock targets need jump drives.
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Failure?
(http://i4.tinypic.com/8aeeuk3.jpg)
That's not what I would call a 'failure'.
(http://i1.tinypic.com/6k6x6yx.jpg)
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Put it in front of the Sathanas.
Doooooo eeeeeeeet.
DOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEET.
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Put the Golgotha in front of Sathanas
DOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEET.
DOOOOOOOOO EEEEEEEEEEET.
Golgotha goes KABLOOIE. See the pattern here?
(I don't know how much damage the Meson Beam of the Golgotha does but if three Golgothas can take out a Sathanas in about a minute a lone Golgotha will probably be toasted by a Sathanas because it doesn't have as much armor as the Colossus)
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Exactly, you don't know how much damage the Meson Cannon does, therefore your speculation is unfounded.
Don't change the subject though. We were talking about the 20 year money investment.
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Failure?
Failure at somethings, success at others.
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Put any ship the GTVA posesses in front of a Sathanas and it WILL be toast. As for the 20 year investment and the point of buliding smaller and more flexible ships, I always like to quote Ngtm1r on that subject: ''Sometimes you need flexibility and sometimes you need a sledgehammer''.
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We were talking about the 20 year money investment.
A good investment. At the time GTVA was in trouble. Economic problems and rebellions. The Colossus provided a symbol. Proof of GTVA power and might. And it also destroyed the NTF. Money well invested IMO. Without the shivans GTVA would have been lika complete bad asses.
But on the long run. Colossus would have been mothballed five days after the NTF rebellion was over. Good thing the Shivans came and killed that money sucking black hole...
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Not much of a sledgehammer considering 20 years make no difference between it and any other ship the GTVA posesses. When it counts.
Also, for those of you who weren't paying much attention during the main campaign, the Colossus had nothing to do with the destruction of the NTF.
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Well the NTF got caught between Alpha 1 and the Collie, so I guess the credit is shared. Bosch ran his regime to the ground, but you know you need a whole fleet to take the C down. NTF had no such resources to spare without endangering it's holdings. Only thing they could have done, was sabotage. And no one knows how that would have ended.
Had the Shivans never appeared, Collie would have raped the NTF. Sure they might have destroyed it. But not without committing huge amounts of resources doing it.
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You didn't figure out what went on during the King's Gambit-Endgame missions and your time with the 64th Raptors, didja?
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I think we may have a difference of opinion here... :nod:
Besides. My outrageous claims are partly hypotetical. With the without the Shivans and all that... Bosch was mostly just after the Shivans. Without the Knossos to divide his attention, and the ultimate mad dash to it, the rebellion would have dragged on. For years maybe...
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I think we may have a difference of opinion here... :nod:
Took you that long to figure it out, huh? :rolleyes:
(j/k, don't kill me)
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I think we may have a difference of opinion here... :nod:
Besides. My outrageous claims are partly hypotetical. With the without the Shivans and all that... Bosch was mostly just after the Shivans. Without the Knossos to divide his attention, and the ultimate mad dash to it, the rebellion would have dragged on. For years maybe...
Okay, let me recap some things for you.
"Command? Where's the blockade? Why isn't the alliance guarding this node?"
"I regret to inform you that your efferts to intercept us have failed pilots. You would be well advised to question the wisdom of your leaders. Helm, engage subspace drive"
So. Command traded Bosch withdrawing his forces from Deneb for his unfettered access to the Sirius jump node.
The only reason for you to see that, was for something that would happen later, which you would be able to figure out from his monologues.
Fast foward to King's Gambit. You enter the field of engagement precisely at the time for the re-initiantion jumps of the NTF capital ships. Orions, Deimos', Aeolus', you name it, it jumped in. You nuke it all, and Command knows exactly no more are coming, time for you to go somewhere else.
Enter Sicilian Defense - now, right here you should've heard something familiar.
"Command? I've got a visual on the Vindicator, but the Iceni is nowhere to be found. Either recon screwed up, or Bosch jumped already. Should we abort?"
Of course, you do not abort, you destroy the second Orion, and then you pound the ass of some other nice ships that jump in, a Deimos, etc. etc. and then it's time to go to the gate.
Come Endgame, few more ships jump in that the Colossus is more than ready to dispatch, and then BAM, HERE COMES THE ENTIRE REASON FOR THE PAST THREE MISSIONS! Uh oh? What's that? Guns don't work? DAYUM!
Now, I believe Goober was the first to point out (some of us knew it already but never talked about it, I personally figured it was obvious as hell) that of course, there was no sabotage on the Colossus, it was the GTVI that let Bosch go by. After all, it makes sense that you wouldn't want to destroy the Iceni, you would want to board it and take ETAK, considering how it is the focal point of the entire reason the NTF exists.
However, for those of us who are good at solving puzzles, you can clearly see from the setup of these few missions when you're with the 64th Raptors, what exactly happened, through the Bosch monologues when he talks about the NTF being stupid cattle, etc. etc.
See, what happened wasn't that the GTVI let Iceni jump, as much as it was another trade. First, Bosch sacrificed his forces in Deneb for his unfettered access to the Sirius jump node, and here, he basically sacrificed the bulk of his NTF fleet for clear passage to and across the Knossos. He gave the GTVA the exact time those ships would be coming out of the nodes (after he had ordered the NTF ships to go through those nodes) and for letting the GTVA take care of their inhouse traitors, he was given free passage to continue his ETAK project at his own expense.
You will note throughout the entire game that is Freespace 2, that Bosch succeeds at EVERYTHING he sets out to do. EVERYTHING. This is the reason he gets his own monologues. From activating the portal, to making friends with the Shivans. What the Shivan intentions are, we will never know, however what we do know is that Bosch did go to whatever the Shivans call "home" (in this, our, universe anyway). We know this, because the only reason we ever found the second Knossos in that huge nebula, was because recon tracked the Azrael transport that carried Bosch to it, and the Azrael jumped to the binary system beyond, which means Bosch was heading to places no other man has, as in, the Shivans let him go beyond. The sign of a good strategist, and therefore Admiral, is to know when to trade your chess pieces (and for what to trade them for) to achieve your objective. He traded his assets perfectly to achieve his "joy". Traded in everyone at the NTF, even the crew of the Iceni in the end, to get his way.
Coming back to what destoryed the NTF - Bosch did. You were just there at the right time to get your medals. Thinking you had anything to do with it though, is just a fairy tale. It was Bosch who created the NTF by playing to the retards fears, and it was Bosch that ended the NTF by trading them in for his true objective. See, this is one of the reasons Freespace 2 is such a good game.
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Not much of a sledgehammer considering 20 years make no difference between it and any other ship the GTVA posesses. When it counts.
Also, for those of you who weren't paying much attention during the main campaign, the Colossus had nothing to do with the destruction of the NTF.
I find it strange to classify a ship a failure if it can't take on every other ship in the universe..that's laughable.
That's like saying a WW2 destroyer is a failure since it can't take on a carrier 1 on 1.
IF A SHIP PERFORMS THE ROLE IT WAS MEANT FOR ADMIRABLY IT IS NOT A FAILURE!
The Collie can kill shivans en masse. Everything but a Sath is a walk in the park! Demon? Ravana? Lucy? TOAST
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No, the Colossus was designed to kill the strongest Shivan ship. It therefore, fails.
Beyond that, I will not comment.
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It was designed to take on the strongest Shivan ship the GTVA KNEW of which at the time when the Colossus was designed was the Lucifer. What else could the GTVA have done? Build more smaller ships? Those would have ended up as toast just like the Colossus did.
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Ah yes, you see, that is what the whole thing is about.
But like I said, beyond what I've written, I will not comment.
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No, the Colossus was designed to kill the strongest Shivan ship. It therefore, fails.
Beyond that, I will not comment.
:wtf:
A ship that can totally pwn everything but a single ship class is a faliure?
Damn, we better alert the armies of the world to scrap every singe tank, plane and ship they ever made - all are failures!
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Trashman, don't bother with him. Black Dove is very solid about his opinion. But I like his writeup on Bosch.
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Trashman, don't bother with him.
I said it before and I'll say it again:
There are several people on HLP I wouldn't like to meet in RL. One is an0n.
The other is BlackDove.
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No, the Colossus was designed to kill the strongest Shivan ship. It therefore, fails.
Beyond that, I will not comment.
:wtf:
A ship that can totally pwn everything but a single ship class is a faliure?
Damn, we better alert the armies of the world to scrap every singe tank, plane and ship they ever made - all are failures!
You don't seem to be able to read. Here, this'll help. (http://www.dictionary.com) Thank me later.
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No I won't. :p
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I said it before and I'll say it again:
There are several people on HLP I wouldn't like to meet in RL. One is an0n.
The other is BlackDove.
I wouldn't want to meet any of you. You are all crazy SOB's. :p .... just like me ;7
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No I won't. :p
How rude.
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It was designed to kill the Lucifer, which was the strongest Shivan ship known. What, were you chief architect, BlackDove?
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The Colossus was designed to take down ships of up to Superdestroyers in class. It was never meant to destroy a juggernaut. Keep that in mind when you wonder if the Colossus itself was a failure.
If you follow the Inferno storyline, you'll also know that the GTVA continued to make supercapital ships. The GTCa Independence and GVCa Rhemet are two such examples, both of which do not appear to be able to defend themselves properly. The Independence, in particular, has a weak flank on its port side that can be exploited (cue the EASD Nemesis).
As for the Colossus, the only weak flank I think there is is its rear.
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If you follow the Inferno storyline, you'll also know that the GTVA continued to make supercapital ships.
If you follow Wing Commander Saga storyline, You'd know that GTVA never existed.
What the **** does Inferno have to to with anything about canon Freespace universe I ask? Nothing. It's just a wet dream about colossal ships in beam orgy. Not canon and thus not relevant.
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Youre joking the Collie a failure??? That monster can chew up and spit out an entire fleet for breakfast and still have room to spare. The Colossus was a huge succes for what it was designed armed and prepared for and that is taking on severeal destroyer class vessels at once and winning hand down. Hell it could even take on 2 Lucy class superdestroyers and it would still win......I THINK.
The Collie WAS a superb ship. Sure it was a fuel hungry child but hey it was 6 freaking km long for the love of god.
As for the next gen of ships? Well MY take is that they will definetely start , at some point in time , to contruct new massive ships such as the big Collie . However i also believe they will be better suited for taking on large enemy ships such as the Sath either by malking them more heavely armoured or by making them have more firepower then before.
another thing the GTVA might do is try building superdestroyer classes of warships not too many just enough of the to be significat force. Lets say 3 perhaps 4 km long wich will be the sledgehammers of the GTVA while at the same time inreasing the power of its smaller ships such as the Deimos and the Sobek perhaps include a new friggate class such as the Iceni. With the destroyer classes such as the Hecate beeing more of a C%C carrier then a pure destroyer.
I mean versatilaty is the key word here and having such a diverse area of ships it can only help to make the GTVA stronger.
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Not canon and thus not relevant.
It may not be canon but it's none (albeit very unlikely) scenario. It's as valid as you saying the GTVA wouldn't create more jugs.
Hell it could even take on 2 Lucy class superdestroyers and it would still win......I THINK.
Only since they're armed with SReds (that's less armament than a Rakshasa, which is a frikkin cruiser)
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So who cares that it has 2 SRed's the Collie was suposed to be a lot more powerfull then it is and noone complains about that. The basic truth reamain no matter how you spin it the Collie succeeded at what it was designed and that is taking out destroyers on mass and Lucy class superdestroyers. Had it been designed to take out Sath class jugs then it would of been most definetly better armed and armoured.
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I understand that the Colossus was not a complete failure, but it was not a complete success either.
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Only if your definition of complete sucess is "invulnerable, unstoppable ship of DOOM(tm) "
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From the POV of the designer it was more then a complete succes. However you can not set a multirole fighter to take out a pure breed superior manouvering superior tech interceptor now can you? The same with the Collie vs. the Sath. In theory they were evenly matched however the truth of the matter is the Collie was no match for a Sath to begin with.
If you look carefully the Sath has more firepower in its 4 BFRed's then the entire broadside of the Collie. That is just ridiculous. It would of been a fair fight perhaps if the Sath had about 400k points of HP instead of its 1 million like the Collie.
Then its total owning beam cannons would of been balanced by its weak armour.
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Only if your definition of complete sucess is "invulnerable, unstoppable ship of DOOM(tm) "
It was a logistical nightmare. Look at the failure debriefing of "Into the Maelstrom".
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Who cares about that? I mean just because the GTVA was not adequately prepared to supply the Collie with what it needed thet oesnt mean the ship was a failure. I mean come on Ppl think that the Tiger tank in ww2 was a failure however when it came out the thing had no rival and for every tiger killed there were 9 allied tank killed as well. This was taken from a documentary i saw which had this statistic to it.
And the Tiger's were a nightmare to resuply and maintain yet they owned everithing on the battlefield. The same for the Panther tanks which come right next to the t-34's as the best medium tank in the world at that time.
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It was a bit of both. It was a bad design, logistical nightmare, and it failed to stop the advancing Shivan fleet.
The Colossus was not designed to defeat the Lucifer, it was designed to be able to stop the Shivans again. Whatever excuses you may say, the Colossus failed to stop the Shivan's advance. It is a failure in that respect.
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Look even the cutscenes say that if the shivans come up with another lucifer or more the Collie will definetly be able to stop them.
It doesnt say ANYWHERE that the Collie WILL STOP 80+ JUGGS fleet of the shivans.
Hell even if the Collie had all of its beams and stuff and double the HP it will still not be able to stop 80+ Sath's ! I mean even if it had better beams better everithing it will be outnumbered so bad it would not stand a chance.
So if you want to look at it from the point of "oh well the blasted ship failed to stop 80+ superior tech Jugg's so its a failure" sure then you can say that but for a ship that was designed to take on MULTIPLE DESTROYERS AND SUPERDESTROYERS AND WIN the ship was a superb succes.
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You don't undersand his point:
Stopping the Shivan forces = FAILURE.
Being a ship able to destroy Lucifers and other Destroyers = Succes.
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Just... just tell him he's right, and make it go away. Please make it go away. My eyes. The goggles. They do nothing.
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My eyes. The goggles. They do nothing.
Are you Microsoft Sam or something?
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I'll be anyone you want me to be if you make it stop. It's infecting my brain. Soon, I will lose the capability to spell.
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I'll be anyone you want me to be if you make it stop. It's infecting my brain. Soon, I will lose the capability to spell.
That would read better as "capacity to spell", or "ability to spell". It's already started!
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I'll be anyone you want me to be if you make it stop. It's infecting my brain. Soon, I will lose the capability to spell.
Will you also lose your ability to make me cry with your evil wisecracks?
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I just might.
Do it for the wisecracks if for no other reason.
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Come on BlackDove i'm giving it my best here . Have a heart or two or as many as you like as long as you want shivan ones .
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You don't undersand his point:
Stopping the Shivan forces = FAILURE.
Well, according to his point, every single ship designed by terrans and vasudans is a faliure. Not one of them can stop a shivan invasion.
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K, but im not willed to produce a list with all ship classes included.
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Well, according to his point, every single ship designed by terrans and vasudans is a faliure. Not one of them can stop a shivan invasion.
:rolleyes:
No, because not every single Terran and Vasudan ship was meant to stop the Shivan advance for ever and ever. That was the Colossus' only purpose.
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The purpose of the Colossus was to stop any shivan invasion force like the one in FS1.
It was designed to stop another Lucifer fleet. Not a sathanas fleet.
You can't design a ship to fight something you don't know exists at all.
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He's saying it, but he's not getting it.
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It was designed to stop a any Shivan invasion force, period. And it failed at that task.
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:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
I wash my hands of you...you're hopeless. :sigh:
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I've long maintained that the GTVA really doesn't need a warship larger in size than a Superdestroyer. A newer class of superdestroyer, capable of killing standard destroyers, but can be produced in more numbers than, oh, 1.
A type of superdestroyer I was trying to come up with was based off of the Hades-class, but with the tower at a 1/4 of the legnth that it was. The SD would be more cut down in size than the Hades... keep in mind the GTVA would need to accomodate these ships inside a dockyard or a Ganymeade, and would boast long-ranged juggernaunt beams (Same type of overloaded beams that the Collosus used against the Sathanas), two slasher beams, and a lot of AA involving flak and anti-fighter beams. That's more or less my concept in a nutshell. (Although it probably wouldn' work, mainally because we don't really know, aside from the tech room that the GTVA still has the plans or the industrial capability to build a Hades, and at any rate it's be a terribly inefficient warship due to its heavy weapon emplacements. Seriously, they blow.)
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I have to say that the thing about Bosch was quite interesting, I never thought it that way. My theory was that an important part of the plot was cut by Volition during the development, which lead to an undeveloped NTF side of the story. But yours is quite consistent I have to say.
Anyways, the thing that killed Colossus was horrible intelligence and colossal (pun intended) failure of the field tacticians contributed only to the idiocy that can only be found in the GTVA's Command. Shivans are like modern mechanized infantry reinforced with tanks, such a force will quickly drive towards enemy territory and destroy everything on its path. Now, considering you were a commanding officer of a GTVA destroyer, and Command gave you an order for direct head-to-head engagement with a Shivan destroyer, would you follow the order, when the first thing that comes to mind is "suicide"? Or would you, perhaps, try to flank and attack the broadside of the Shivan destroyer?
The same thing with Colossus. It cannot be said that the capabilities of Sathanas were not known at that point (GTVA Phoenicia?), so what the hell was Command thinking about and what kind of idiot was the commanding officer of Colossus?
Mika
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Think about it like this;
The Sathanas came to take the Colossus out. Had Colossus jumped, it would have been followed (the Sathanas obviously wasn't playing "HALLO THAR!", it went specifically for the thing that annoyed it the most.)
Now, had the Colossus have jumped, not only would it bring a Sathanas where command didn't want it (beyond the last line), it would also have lured it without the Colossus being able to subsequently defeat it (the ship was crippled) assuming it didn't die en-route to the node from which it would jump out of Capella. Quite honestly, I didn't really see any other option for the thing, other than for it to die like the piece of unweildly **** that it was.
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It was designed to stop a any Shivan invasion force, period. And it failed at that task.
it was designed to stop any shivan invasion force consisting of shivan ship classes we encountered in the great war.
It would probably beat a Lucifer
infact, soon as i'm done working out these "fixes" to Their Finest Hour i'll make a battle-of-endor between a Colossus battlegroup and a Lucifer fleet
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Just because you have a spiffy new replacement for it that you've been taunting us with for almost a decade, doesn't mean you need to cheapen the death of all those crew members and a genuinely powerful ship. We can love both! It's just that, when you get right down to it, we don't HAVE the Golgotha. Can you really blame us when we root for the Colossus?
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Think about it like this;
The Sathanas came to take the Colossus out. Had Colossus jumped, it would have been followed (the Sathanas obviously wasn't playing "HALLO THAR!", it went specifically for the thing that annoyed it the most.)
Now, had the Colossus have jumped, not only would it bring a Sathanas where command didn't want it (beyond the last line), it would also have lured it without the Colossus being able to subsequently defeat it (the ship was crippled) assuming it didn't die en-route to the node from which it would jump out of Capella. Quite honestly, I didn't really see any other option for the thing, other than for it to die like the piece of unweildly **** that it was.
This is true after it was crippled. But I was referring to situations before that, like where Colossus collides with the NTF Destroyer (head-to-head with a Destroyer while other angles could have been chosen), head-to-head with Sathanas in their first match - not a chance unless you get to shoot first further away (and again other angles could have been chosen). Then the last mission where Colossus is finally destroyed is a total intelligence failure, it even seems the Command was not really interested in keeping a contact with the Shivan force. And why don't the capital ships aim the anti-capital beam turrets first? It's not like they wouldn't know where Shivan beam cannons are located...
Mika
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Now, had the Colossus have jumped, not only would it bring a Sathanas where command didn't want it (beyond the last line), it would also have lured it without the Colossus being able to subsequently defeat it (the ship was crippled) assuming it didn't die en-route to the node from which it would jump out of Capella. Quite honestly, I didn't really see any other option for the thing, other than for it to die like the piece of unweildly **** that it was.
What makes you think the Collie would jump behind the last line? Wouldn't luring the Sath to chase a Collie buy MORE time for the Bastion? (granted, not much time, since it doesn't take THAT long for a ship to turn, jump, end transition and turn again).
Maby the Collie could even make it to the node alive?
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It was designed to stop a any Shivan invasion force, period. And it failed at that task.
it was designed to stop any shivan invasion force consisting of shivan ship classes we encountered in the great war.
It would probably beat a Lucifer
infact, soon as i'm done working out these "fixes" to Their Finest Hour i'll make a battle-of-endor between a Colossus battlegroup and a Lucifer fleet
I agree with that.
Because how could they have known that there were Sathanes?
They only knew of the FS1 ships, and made it to only combat those ships because they thought that those were the only Shivan ships.
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Think about it like this;
The Sathanas came to take the Colossus out. Had Colossus jumped, it would have been followed (the Sathanas obviously wasn't playing "HALLO THAR!", it went specifically for the thing that annoyed it the most.)
Now, had the Colossus have jumped, not only would it bring a Sathanas where command didn't want it (beyond the last line), it would also have lured it without the Colossus being able to subsequently defeat it (the ship was crippled) assuming it didn't die en-route to the node from which it would jump out of Capella. Quite honestly, I didn't really see any other option for the thing, other than for it to die like the piece of unweildly **** that it was.
Don't jump drives need time to charge? Had the Colossus jumped immediately, the Sathanas would have needed a brief moment to follow it, buying them time. You're also assuming that the Shivans needed to destroy it. The Sathanas wanted to protect the jump node for the transports coming through. Once the Colossus had fled, it may have waited a while, and then returned to its supernova-generating duties. Don't forget that what the Shivans were doing was of the utmost importance to them. They were willing to sacrifice their own ships in order to carry it out. They were not trying to destroy the enemy, they were clearing themselves room.
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Failure?
http://i4.tinypic.com/8aeeuk3.jpg (http://i4.tinypic.com/8aeeuk3.jpg)
That's not what I would call a 'failure'.
Woah, woah, WOAH. Hate to back the thread too far up, but Koth, your screenshots lack some validity.
(http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/Colossus17.png)
At any rate, giving the rest of the flames thread a skim, the only real concensus, as with most Colossus threads, is that you don't stand in front of a Sathanas. It will only let you live if you're genuinely suicidal.
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I believe that counts as an "oh snap". :D
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You know what's strange? Not a single ship has the BFGreen.
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Failure?
http://i4.tinypic.com/8aeeuk3.jpg (http://i4.tinypic.com/8aeeuk3.jpg)
That's not what I would call a 'failure'.
Woah, woah, WOAH. Hate to back the thread too far up, but Koth, your screenshots lack some validity.
(http://home.comcast.net/~blueflames/Colossus17.png)
It's easy as that:http://hades-combine.com/web/index.php?ind=downloads&op=entry_view&iden=350 (http://hades-combine.com/web/index.php?ind=downloads&op=entry_view&iden=350) Anyone remebers the table entry
of the Colossus? There were some turrets left out by Volition and this model reimplents them and improves the general weapon layout. Don't worry though, most of the new Anti Capital Beams are Terslash so it doesn't make too big of a difference. My point still stands. The original Colossus is still able to smash six destoyers at once but it needs more time and takes more damage in the process.
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Think about it like this;
The Sathanas came to take the Colossus out. Had Colossus jumped, it would have been followed (the Sathanas obviously wasn't playing "HALLO THAR!", it went specifically for the thing that annoyed it the most.)
Bankrupt argument. This is actually one of the few cases where the tactical motivations of the Shivans were totally non-ambigous; they responded to a GTVA attempt to cut their lines of communication. The Sathanas was deployed in a counterattack, with the aforementioned purpose of reopening the lines of communication to Gamma Drac and beyond. If it had driven off the Colossus, it would have engaged other GTVA ships in the area (assuming they didn't have the brains to flee), and then remained in the area to continue to protect the Shivan line of communcations which it had come to defend against a possible return of the Colossus.
It is possible that the Shivans might have deployed a different Sathanas against the Colossus wherever it went to end the threat permanently, but as the Sathanas fleet as a whole seemed singularly uninterested in the GTVA's actions, this is unlikely.
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Think about it like this;
The Sathanas came to take the Colossus out. Had Colossus jumped, it would have been followed (the Sathanas obviously wasn't playing "HALLO THAR!", it went specifically for the thing that annoyed it the most.)
Bankrupt argument. This is actually one of the few cases where the tactical motivations of the Shivans were totally non-ambigous; they responded to a GTVA attempt to cut their lines of communication. The Sathanas was deployed in a counterattack, with the aforementioned purpose of reopening the lines of communication to Gamma Drac and beyond. If it had driven off the Colossus, it would have engaged other GTVA ships in the area (assuming they didn't have the brains to flee), and then remained in the area to continue to protect the Shivan line of communcations which it had come to defend against a possible return of the Colossus.
It is possible that the Shivans might have deployed a different Sathanas against the Colossus wherever it went to end the threat permanently, but as the Sathanas fleet as a whole seemed singularly uninterested in the GTVA's actions, this is unlikely.
What the **** are you talking about? What communications? Are we just making **** up now? Is that what we're doing? We're just making stupid **** up without any mention of them anywhere.
Their Finest Hour is all about drawing the Shivan attention away from the Bastion on the other side of the Capella node (in Epsilon Pegasi). ****, the briefing tells you that. THE MISSION tells you that. The entire taskforce stationed in Capella is to draw the fight away from the Bastion and subsequently the Neried and cause a diversion. Keep the suckers in Capella until the last moment.
It worked. They sent the Sathanas. Unfortunately, the Colossus proves too much of a piece of **** to mount any kind of a diversion, being too large and too busy taking it up the ass from the four beams of the Sathanas.
Communications... "counterattack"...
Where do you people get this kind of crap from?
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Shivans are as dependant on subspace as we are....ergo, they are using subspace communication too, altough they transmit quantum pulses.
In order to get ANYTHING (a ship, a signal, a message) from a system to system you need to use nodes. You need to have some kind of transmitter and reciever on both ends.
Either the shivan fleet in Capella has no communication with other shivans (unlikely) or they had it, which means they have to have the GD node under their control.
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BlackDove has a point (sort of) with that communications thing. Nothing really indicates it's communications Shivans were trying to protect. Could it have been their supply line perhaps? Or maybe it was about their fetish for subspace and nodes? The reasons are many.
Apart from this communications ****, I agree with ngtm1r and his assessment of the situation.
Also I may think BlackDove is a nutjob and is so zealous about this it borders unhealthy. But I won't say that, instead I'll say this: Will you ****ing give it a rest already. We get that you hate the Colossus. You're annoying go away. :doubt:
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Oh no. I'm annoying. People don't want me to stay :(
Now I'm sad. :(
Tough ****.
Look Prophet, I know getting your face sandblasted off by reason doesn't feel good, but you're going to have to be a brave little boy and endure, because like it or not, there are smarter people than you out there, and when some of us are facing stupidity, we get all zealous and nutjob about it.
Also, the entierty of ngtm1r's post was "this communications ****". There is no assessment or a situation in that post for you to agree with. The only thing you CAN agree with is his contrary demeanor toward what I'm posting (which was the reason he posted that stupid **** anyway, it wasn't to make a point, but just to say he disagrees with me). That, however, is just downright pathetic and childish (though unlike you, n1gtwhatever has been doing this for like two years now in an attempt to make himself feel important, because after all, saying you disagree with God (that's me) is saying you matter, and the reason it still continues, is because it fails every time).
So, no, it's not "You're annoying, go away", it's;
"BlackDove is right, and I am wrong, and therefore I concede to his infinite wisdom and would also like to express my eternal gratitude towards him for gracing my presence with his unquestionable and divine opinions and facts!"
Try saying it over and over. You can say it with me, and we can do it together to help your healing process.
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Replace the word communication with supply in his post and he has a reasonable point.
As for the rest of the thread. Calm the **** down guys.
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Maybe, but nevertheless it's speculation on the intent of Shivans.
How much do we value those again?
The primary thing about that mission are facts. You're there to distract. Cains, Liliths, Rakshasa's, Ravanas and Sathanas come to you. There is only one logical conclusion, and that is the mere fact that you're there to distract, and it's working. From there, the only real conclusion you can reach is that wherever the distraction goes, the Shivans will follow.
I'm not saying I'm right (being serious now, unlike in my post above). However, between logic and asinine guesses as to what the Shivans are doing, anyone who considers themselves a rational man or woman, will not take "communications" as a means to explain the focus of the mission.
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Focus? no.
Means to an end? Very likely.
If you want to draw the attention of the enemy force, you do it by striking at something important or vital. Basic logic and tactics.
Shivans also needs supplies. Shivans also have communications. Thus, trying to break supply lines/ communication lines is a viable tactic.
Not saying that's what the GTVA was doing, but blockading the DG node would have exactly that effect.
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You know what's strange? Not a single ship has the BFGreen.
No stranger than the LRBGreen. The Colossus uses both.
waits for someone to be foolish enough to search the ships.tbl and then try to tell him it doesn't.
Maybe, but nevertheless it's speculation on the intent of Shivans.
How much do we value those again?
But you're doing it too. You're assuming that the Shivans actually care about the distraction enough to follow it.
The primary thing about that mission are facts. You're there to distract. Cains, Liliths, Rakshasa's, Ravanas and Sathanas come to you. There is only one logical conclusion, and that is the mere fact that you're there to distract, and it's working. From there, the only real conclusion you can reach is that wherever the distraction goes, the Shivans will follow.
Fine let's get down to the facts. It's less than 30 minutes before the Shivans are planning to supernova the system. So why are there two Asmodeus and a Mephisto heading away from the jump node?
If the Shivans are about to nuke the system and pretty much everything in it then it doesn't seem likely that it's for simple resupply of their ships now does it? Perhaps they're bringing vital equipment or supplies through, perhaps not. Doesn't matter anyway. They're bringing something through and the GTVA has stopped them.
So the Shivans would most likely act to prevent their supply lines being cut. Once the lines were restored though would they pursue the Colossus? Maybe. Maybe not. You're assuming that the distraction succeeded simply because it was a distraction and that if it moved the Shivans would follow it. I'm pointing out that it could very well be that the reason why it worked is because the GTVA picked the one target that the Shivans would be distracted by and if they moved off the Shivans might not bother chasing them. Getting more transports through the node might be more important to them.
I suspect that was what ngtm1r was on about too but he used the wrong word.
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No, I'm not doing it too.
Facts are facts, and guesswork is guesswork. Fact 1; you're there to distract, Fact 2, a bunch of ships jump in including the Sathanas. Sure, maybe they're there for other reasons. Maybe they dispatched the cruisers, corvettes the Ravana and the Sathanas to guard the three transports. Maybe not. Who gives a damn? When the Sathanas jumps in, it jumps in right on top of the Colossus to vaporize it (as it does deftly so). Therefore its purpose in this mission is to vaporize the Colossus. Had the Colossus tried to run, the Sathanas would not vaporize, and therefore the only thing that can be deduced is that it would follow - this being the highest probablity based on the facts - after all, WHEN the Sathanas jumps, there is nothing else in the system to guard (the transports are destroyed).
Basing probable outcomes on facts, and basing probable outcomes on bull**** coming out of your own imagination with "communications" and "transmitters and recievers" (seriously, what the ****?) are two different things.
Intent? Up for grabs. Who knows?
Result? Pretty ****ing linear, so much so, it's nearly academic.
Now, if you want to get philosophical on me and say "But it's still possible that if the Colossus jumped out, the Sathanas would not follow because;
a) There was another batch of transports coming it would guard (a transport guarding sathanas..... okay)
b) It just wanted to twiddle its thumbs awaiting its own destruction when the sun went boom
c) It wanted to fly around in circles for no reason whatsoever"
Sure. All possible outcomes. We don't know for sure. We don't know if more transports were en route, we don't know the intentions at all. But you're not going to tell me that there doesn't exist a likelyhood for one option over the other, and that logic doesn't dictate that according to what the mission shows, the Sathanas wouldn't run after the Colossus over the other options.
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after all, WHEN the Sathanas jumps, there is nothing else in the system to guard (the transports are destroyed).
the node? :lol:
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after all, WHEN the Sathanas jumps, there is nothing else in the system to guard (the transports are destroyed).
Forgotten about the jump node have you? How about guarding that? It's not like guarding jump nodes is unprecedented behaviour from the Shivans.
You're trying to claim that the Sathanas must have arrived to destroy the Colossus and would follow it where ever it went. And you're completely ignoring the fact that it might have been there to defend the node and attack whatever was there.
There were two things at that location which might have been of interest to the Sathanas. The jump node and the Colossus. You're trying to say you know which was of interest to the Shivans. How is that not speculation on the intent of Shivans?
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I added the final paragraph in the post above for that train of thought.
Sure. Let's examine the likelyhood of a Sathanas jumping in with an entire fleet to guard a node that's about to be covered by a Supernova. That's likely. Because as we all KNOW, the Shivans regularly send Sathanas class warships to guard nodes.
-_-
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I added the final paragraph in the post above for that train of thought.
Sure. Let's examine the likelyhood of a Sathanas jumping in with an entire fleet to guard a node that's about to be covered by a Supernova. That's likely. Because as we all KNOW, the Shivans regularly send Sathanas class warships to guard nodes.
-_-
That was sarcasm, but for all we know they do. It's not as if we've had a whole lot of time to watch that particular ship class in action afterall, and the details are classified level upsilon!
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Maybe they send them in when that node is going to be attacked by enemy Juggernauts?
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Like I said.
Likelyhood. I'm not saying "YES I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED". Yes, maybe they send them in for XXXXXXXX reason. Nobody knows. Nobody cares.
However, if you're going to choose between;
a) The Colossus remains in system in order to not have the Sathanas follow it into Vega or Epsilon Pegasi. Therefore the reasoning for their decision to remain in the system and be destroyed is logical, and well measured since it is guaranteed more than 30 000 lives would be lost if a Sathanas got passed the Capella line
or
b) The Colossus remains in the system because its engines are disabled. The Admiral is lying. The Sathanas just jumped into the system to guard the node of a star that's about to go supernova anyway.
or
c) The Colossus remains in the system because its engines are disabled. The Admiral is lying. The Sathanas jumped in to escort 3 freighters.
or
d) The Colossus remains in the system because its engines are disabled. The Admiral is lying. The Sathanas jumped in to PROTECT COMMUNICATIONS AND ACT LIKE A RECIEVER OR TRANSMITTER FOR ANYONE IN GAMMA DRACONIS!
Tell me, which one do you choose? Beware, there is only one right choice, the others make you a moron. Get the point?
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Let's examine the likelyhood of a Sathanas jumping in with an entire fleet to guard a node that's about to be covered by a Supernova.
So they rather send the juggernaut to destroy the Colossus that is about to be destroyed by the supernova...?
Because as we all KNOW, the Shivans regularly send Sathanas class warships to guard nodes.
Because we all KNOW that the GTVA had already destroyed everything else they sent in to secure the node.
EDIT: And all A B C and D are possible. I just cant back that up because you are on HyperPosting-mode and you'd have three more posts up by the time I'm finished explaining myself... :doubt:
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I didn't see anything jumping in afterwards. Did you?
And a Colossus that jumps out, is a Colossus that is intended to make it out of Capella. Whether it makes it or not is arbitrary to the point. Quit reaching for bull**** just to be able to disagree.
EDIT: And all A B C and D are possible. I just cant back that up because you are on HyperPosting-mode and you'd have three more posts up by the time I'm finished explaining myself... :doubt:
Yes, that's why I've put it up as a multiple choice. It's your choice.
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I'd say it's pretty obvious they sent the Sath because everything else they sent failed.... which probably means the shivies weren't happy.
Shivies like their nodes. I don't think the Sath would chase after the Collie, after all, it was needed at the star..
B.t.w., there is more there than just your 4 possibilities.
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Yes, and as soon as you get me a coherent one that doesn't involve communications, transmissions and recievers, I'll be more than happy to consider it.
Shivans indeed like their nodes. Shivans however, prefer to jump out instead of wait for a supernova to engulf them. You know where they also like to jump out? Terran-Vasudan space. They really like to make those jumps.
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You consider shivans wanting to protect their communications incoherent???
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Either make actual arguments or don't bother posting. Any further picture only posts will also be deleted.
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Oh I'm sorry.
You consider shivans wanting to protect their communications incoherent???
No.
Was that not clear?
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My bad. I misread your post.
Just FYI - colossus being really disabled or not is another matter and you can have a yes/no scenario for every of the 4 options.
EDIT - simply because it's funny:
Le click (http://withoutwords.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/devilhead-idiot.jpg)
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I suspect that was what ngtm1r was on about too but he used the wrong word.
No, actually using the right words, but someone's not understanding them in the proper fashion. I suppose I'm speaking military better than people here understand it. The phrase "lines of communication" does not refer to what it seems to have been interpreted as, perhaps a historical allusion to the days when they sent runners for communications. Instead it means the ability to bring reinforcements and supplies forward to a fighting front/unit.
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I meant wrong in the meaning that the others didn't get your meaning. I was sure you mean supply and reinforcements right away.
However, if you're going to choose between;
Except that those aren't the only choices. For a start I've not been talking about communications. I've been talking about supply lines and a way out of Capella. No human or Vasudan would allow the enemy to cut their supply lines and if the Shivans needed them for anything else I doubt they would either.
Secondly there is an enormous difference between what the captain of the Colossus thought the Shivans would do next and what they actually would do. Staying behind to stop the Shivans makes them heroes regardless of what would actually have happened. So Petrach is still correct to call them that. This community is unfortunately full of armchair tacticians who claim that they would have known what to do in any given situation and how it was a better choice that whatever Command or Bosch or whoever did. I've always hated that. I'm not going to argue that the Colossus made the wrong choice to stay behind or that they should have jumped out.
In other words I'm picking A and E. With E being that the Shivans might not have followed the Colossus if it had jumped out. That doesn't mean that they made the wrong choice to stay though.
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However, if you're going to choose between;
Except that those aren't the only choices. For a start I've not been talking about communications. I've been talking about supply lines and a way out of Capella. No human or Vasudan would allow the enemy to cut their supply lines and if the Shivans needed them for anything else I doubt they would either.
Secondly there is an enormous difference between what the captain of the Colossus thought the Shivans would do next and what they actually would do. Staying behind to stop the Shivans makes them heroes regardless of what would actually have happened. So Petrach is still correct to call them that. This community is unfortunately full of armchair tacticians who claim that they would have known what to do in any given situation and how it was a better choice that whatever Command or Bosch or whoever did. I've always hated that. I'm not going to argue that the Colossus made the wrong choice to stay behind or that they should have jumped out.
In other words I'm picking A and E. With E being that the Shivans might not have followed the Colossus if it had jumped out. That doesn't mean that they made the wrong choice to stay though.
Yes, I'll take the Admirals thoughts in character over anyone elses here regarding the fate of the fictional story he's a part of. Funny, I thought that's what we were all doing. But no, even when they say it, it's not like that, because you yourself know most and the fictional characters in the fictional story? They know nothing.
You need to abandon that line of thought as soon as possible, it does NOT work well for you in any sort of way.
Yes, they aren't the only choices. What is wrong with you people? Those were the 4 prominent choices I've taken from this discussion. You can add five hundred and fifty five more choices, and I'm going to bet that they're all going to end up looking like the ones below A, because the ones below A are your best bets so far, and they're really horrible horrible bets.
E is retarded as well, because it disregards the purpose of the mission (distraction) and it disregards the notion of the admiral of the Colossus. I'd assume someone with that rank, commanding the biggest ship ever, would know much better about what he was talking about, then you would.
I suspect that was what ngtm1r was on about too but he used the wrong word.
No, actually using the right words, but someone's not understanding them in the proper fashion. I suppose I'm speaking military better than people here understand it. The phrase "lines of communication" does not refer to what it seems to have been interpreted as, perhaps a historical allusion to the days when they sent runners for communications. Instead it means the ability to bring reinforcements and supplies forward to a fighting front/unit.
Yeah, I meant 50 other things too when my argument has been slain to death and mutilated beyond recognition.
It's because I'm so military.
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The distraction was attacking the node. You're continually making the assumption that this wasn't the only thing the Shivan was interested in. If the Shivans would have followed the Colossus had it jumped out somewhere other than either of the two nodes then jumping out would have continued the distraction.
So in other words you are the one saying the Colossus made the wrong choice.
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No, the distraction was luring the Shivan armada to that position. Like I said, facts over guesswork.
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LURING..
Which means you have to have something the other wants..why else would he follow you?
There's got to be a reason why the Collie was in that specific position in the system.
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Amm all said and done who wants an other class of superdestroyer's Or Collie class jug's??? This time i hope THE GTVA will consider putting some real weaponry on the blasted thing's . No more slashers NO MORE SLASHERS. (Even if they look kinda cool)
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Wow, I can't follow what's going on at all any more. :p Anyone want to clarify the various arguments and who's presenting them?
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This community is unfortunately full of armchair tacticians who claim that they would have known what to do in any given situation and how it was a better choice that whatever Command or Bosch or whoever did.
Should I take this as a stab to my direction?
The funny thing is that now I cannot comment anything in this thread without being labelled as "armchair tactician", which on the other hand is quite hilarious, considering the service record.
Mika
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Actually I was referring to those people who'll spend 3 or 4 pages worth of discussion coming up with and refining the ultimate method of getting a certain ship to win a battle, stacking every single assumption in favour of their idea, assuming that the enemy will act in exactly the way that they predicted (and couldn't be expected to possibly not do so) and then regard the captain of the vessel as an idiot for not seeing it in the five seconds that elapsed between Command giving them an order and them choosing to act on what they thought was the best course of action.
Sci-fi geekdom is generally full of these sort of people. And usually they're idiots.
Feel free to decide whether that definition includes you or not. :p
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:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
I wash my hands of you...you're hopeless. :sigh:
The
Colossus
Was
Designed
To
Stop
Any
Shivan
Assault
Force.
Which
It
Failed
At.
Despite the GTVA not knowing the power of the Sathanes, the Colossus' job was to stop the Shivans, period. "The squirtgun was designed to repulse an assault force that was as powerful as the Lucifer's attack" is valid, but only to a certain extent. The Colossus was supposed to be able to defeat any Shivan assault force. It is a partial failure because it didn't defeat the Shivans. The size of the assault force is irrelevant. The fact that it was not able to defeat the Shivans is the point.
IMO, the Colossus was a 90% success. You can't say it was a complete success because it failed at its job.
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Changing your view now...before you were claiming it was a failure..now it's a 90% success :lol:
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The Colossus Was Designed To Stop Any Shivan Assault Force. Which It Failed At.
Doesn't that make it a 0% success?
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Actualy no! The Colossus was designed with the Lucifer specs in mind . And so if ANY shivan Lucifer fleet it might come up in the future. Or ani shivan force even if it consisted of multiple Lucifer CLass ships. THAT is the correct mission for the Colossus. THAT is what it sais or rather what can be conclueded from the cutscenes.
However if you want to blame someone for the Colossus not beeing able to stop the shivans you should blame GTVA command and its designers for not havin the brains to try and imagine something more powerfull then the Lucifer.
And the Sath is that something more powerfull then the Whole Lucifer fleet put toghether.
Sure the Collie failed to stop 80+ ships more powerfull then it but then again that is what you can call an unexpected twist on the battlefield. How on earth was anyone suposed to know the shivans would develop beam cannons and furthermore how on earth were they suposed to imagine that they would be so allpowerfull?
Sure the are a lot of things that could of been done diferent and if you want to consider the Collie a failure because a SINGLE ship failed to stop 80+ more powerfull ships then you go ahead and do that since it would be correct .
However sticking to such an arguement is stupid is narowminded and ridiculous. There i've said it.
Had the Collie met on the battlefield agains one or more Lucifer ships i have no question that it would of won and everyone would of wondered at the tech superiority of the GTVA.
However as is the case the shivans were very very dangerously underestimated and well the price had to be paid for such a failure of.....well basicly imagination and foresight.
For the Collie to have been even on equal footing with the Sath it would of probably had to be equped with Mjolnir beam cannons and lots of them About 8 on each side perhaps even more. And have twice the armour plating that it had. That is to be on equal footing with just one of them. But then again what happenes when you have 2 or 3 or 4 of those things engaging the Colllie???
Even so desperatly outgunned by the Sath had there actualy been 80+ Collies then we could of talked about the failure of the Collie design. But since we do not have such a thing it is best to give credit where credit is due. The Collie would of bean one mean Lucy killing machine had it got the chance.
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Changing your view now...before you were claiming it was a failure..now it's a 90% success :lol:
If you read my post I said "It wasn't a complete failure but it wasn't a complete success." So it could be anything really. :P
Doesn't that make it a 0% success?
Only if it's a 100% failure. Which it wasn't.
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If you design a torpedo cruiser whose task it to destroy battleships - and it's great for that, but you find that the enemy fields 80+ submarines and sinks your cruisers, is the cruiser a failed design? Of course it isn't. You can't rate ships/designs that way.
The Collie was designed to hunt down and destroy fleets of shivan destroyers - which it does admirably. It was never designed to duke it out with ships designed to kill ships of it's size..and even there it fairs rather well.
Ships have specific designs, SPECIFIC tasks and it's the fulfillment of that specific task by which they are rated.
"Stop any enemy attack" is as much as specific task for a ship as is "being invincible" or "omnipresent". It's more a idea than a task.
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"Stop any enemy attack" is as much as specific task for a ship as is "being invincible" or "omnipresent". It's more a idea than a task.
That is the idea of the Colossus. Which it 10% failed at....
Okay I give up.
See I'm not beyond help!
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You have seen trough the veil of confusion and looked at the light of truth. Your sins are forgiven.
You will sit next to me in the afterlife as you internal reward...*
*I got reservations for 2 in Hells Cafe.
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You will sit next to me in the afterlife as you internal reward...*
*I got reservations for 2 in Hells Cafe.
Yeah, and our band will be performing that night :lol:
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If you design a torpedo cruiser whose task it to destroy battleships - and it's great for that, but you find that the enemy fields 80+ submarines and sinks your cruisers, is the cruiser a failed design? Of course it isn't. You can't rate ships/designs that way.
The Collie was designed to hunt down and destroy fleets of shivan destroyers - which it does admirably. It was never designed to duke it out with ships designed to kill ships of it's size..and even there it fairs rather well.
Ships have specific designs, SPECIFIC tasks and it's the fulfillment of that specific task by which they are rated.
"Stop any enemy attack" is as much as specific task for a ship as is "being invincible" or "omnipresent". It's more a idea than a task.
I actually agree with this 100%, though I will add that the designers also believed the idea of "Stopping any enemy attack" would be accomplished with the ship they designed. But obviously you can't build something with that as your performance metric for success or failure, as you'd then need to declare war on everything that could possibly attack you until there's literally nothing left in the entire plane of existence that could be remotely threatening in order to realize that goal.
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In terms of the investment of resources and personnel compared to the damage it caused to the NTF and Shivans it was surely not worth it(I haven't actually finished FS2 yet so im hoping it doesn't go on a major killing spree to prove me wrong), though i would have to agree the point its successful at its purpose.
Big thanks to turey for the installed, kara for the FAQ, and all the people who made SCP or the mods ill be starting soon
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:welcomered:
Do visit the Useful Stuff website (link in my signature) to find some additional stuff that Turey's Installer doesn't download. And play through the FS2 campaign to see exactly what happens regarding the Colossus.
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You have seen trough the veil of confusion and looked at the light of truth. Your sins are forgiven.
Get ye behind me, Satan, for your words do not come from God, but from man!
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Yeah ive been through your useful stuff link, was gutted as i had just gone past the part when the lucifer arrives at vasuda prime... :(
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That's not a big loss, since there still is some issues with how the video is encoded. It won't play in-game, despite the modified campaign and table files. But you can always watch it outside the game with VLC Media Player, for example.
Oh, but you have it in a vp. You can get a vp editor, like Maja, and extract the video from the vp. Or you can check out the original release thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,50977.0.html) and download the video from there.
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You have seen trough the veil of confusion and looked at the light of truth. Your sins are forgiven.
Get ye behind me, Satan, for your words do not come from God, but from man!
Hissssssssssssssssssssss - I mean, satan? While, I'm just an angel in disguise ;)
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I meant "Sathanas" :P
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The spam really needs to stay canned, okay?
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Sorry.
The Colossus was an ugly squirtgun. It may have vaped one Sath, but it couldn't vape ~80 Saths. So the GTVA must look elsewhere other than building another 80 Colossi.
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Ok, it's clear that nothing will last in front of a Sath, let's not even try. Don't waste resources on hull plating, its worthless anyway. Prepare to lose ships rapidly. Make the ships light and small, with just a beam cannon + jump drive, and thats about it. Minimal crew. Small attack profile. No need for AA either, thats for fighters to do. Jump in from multiple directions, using as-low-cost-as-possible carries, deploy the ships, attack, jump-out. Gather again for the next round.
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beam cannons with engines ;7 You don't need more.. just mass produce them..Hmmm..maybe stick 2 AAAf's on each one and you're good to go.
Imagine 100 cannons like that. Thats 200 AAAf's total!
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Look: It may be a computer game, but think realistically. You CAN FRED a Colossus to have BFGreens on all its 62 turrets, but in real life, there is no way for even the Colossus to supply that much power to 62 beam turrets.
It took 20 years for the GTVA to build a single Colossus. Should the GTVA continue attempting to build supercapital ships, it would take them less time, albeit about 10 to 15 years.
The Colossus was never designed to take on juggernauts. It was a destroyer-killer, and given this purpose, it succeeds greatly. It wasn't a complete success, though (if its Fighterbay can be damaged, it isn't that good a warship). It still needs fighter cover in some aspects. When its hull goes critical, there had better be some friendly fighters around to protect it. In my incomplete remake of Their Finest Hour, I saw the following:
1. Sathanas jumps in, beams the Colossus down to 6% hull integrity;
2. Bombers disarm Sathanas' beam cannons;
3. Memphis jumps in from rear of Sathanas, takes ten minutes to destroy it;
4. Nephilims get sent out the moment Memphis jumps in, most of them make a beeline for the Colossus;
5. Nephilims bombard Colossus to oblivion because there was no fighter cover.
There we go. One of the underlying weaknesses of the Colossus is that it needs some fighter cover against waves of bombers that come in groups of three. In addition, because it is so large, it moves fairly slowly (although the Leviathan's even slower). Thirdly, if the Colossus takes 20% damage, it would take "months" to fully repair its hull. Finally, if the Colossus is put out of action (as seen in High Noon), it would be mostly useless to the GTVA.
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Was that answer directed at me?
Couse I wasn't saying a colossus with 100 beam turrets.
I was saying 100 smaller ships that are nothing more than a high-powered beam cannon, 2 AAF's and a engine glued together.
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That would cost just as much as the Colossus itself (engine and reactor costs; Colossus has <100 engines and definitely <100 reactors).
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Colossus has like 14 engines not 100.
It probably doesn't have 100 reactors either.
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That sign means "less than", Hades.
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I was saying 100 smaller ships that are nothing more than a high-powered beam cannon, 2 AAF's and a engine glued together.
That would be very expensive IMO. The reason the Mjolnirs weren't deployed at every Node is that they cost as much as say, building a cruiser or corvette. Think about it. It's only slightly larger than a bomber but it has a beam cannon that is more powerful than a BGreen. They're probably super-expensive and they can't be mass-produced and it just wasn't feasible to make more.
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As long as bombers are being made without turrets. Why not just make bombers the a beam turret with heavy shielding, engines, cockpit, and bomb bays. Then you could easily come up with something the same size as an ursa if not smaller with the same speed of an ursa. What you'd have is something highly damaging, and possibly cheap? Or instead of fashioning a bomber after a full size anti-cap beam, you could do a bomber centered around a AAA beam. Those do hurt capships too.
If you had a bomber like this you'd probably want to make a bomber centered around taurvi likeness. Treat the AAA beam as a secondary, and have ****ty ass primary weapons.
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That would cost just as much as the Colossus itself (engine and reactor costs; Colossus has <100 engines and definitely <100 reactors).
Yes, but they all can not be destroyed in 10 seconds. Which is the point.
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Small but heavily-armed ships are the way to go IMO. No more superjugs for the GTVA.
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Perhaps if the gtva did waht the shivans do, make incredibly powerful forward facing weapons with the rest of the ship having weak subsystems and little to no anti-fighter suppression.
Perhaps this is one reason the shivans have so many ships because they may be actually cheaper to produce than terran/vasudan ships? Terran and vasudan ships already have superior defences and design compared to shivan ships. I would say that the shivans spent a lot of extra time making their beams ridiculously good. The gtva should never switch to the shivan model of building capships, it wouldn't be good at all. Terran/vasudan ships are tough nuts to crack. I wouldn't say give terran/vasudan ships beams just as good as shivans beams. I would say based on how much more advanced that terran and vasudan capships are compared to shivan ships, that terran/vasudan ships should be given beams that are more effective against shivan warships, that would be a nice balancing maneuver.
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Mimicking the Shivans with assault-only ships is a recipe for destruction. First, you can't make nearly as many as the Shivans, so you can't use their own tactics against them (brute force and sheer numbers). Second, you can't do normal tactics with assault-only ships; the only thing you can do is surprise attacks, which definitely isn't a good choice as the GTVA would be on the defense should the Sathanes or a larger force decide to attack the GTVA directly.
And about the Shivan ships being cheaper to produce. I think the Shivans have some advanced way of making their ships. Their ships could be slightly organic or something, which means that they can easily create things. Or they could have some kind of uber-workforce that doesn't need food or sleep or pay or anything. I doubt the GTVA would ever be able to match the Shivan's construction speed.
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No more superjugs for the GTVA.
Inferno there art thou?
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Technically, the GTVA never builds superjugs in Inferno. Only the EA and their Icanus. :P
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Yes but the Uber Ship of DOOMTM theme is VERY prevalent in Inferno.
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Which is why the gtva should never do that. Make more powerful beams with their awesome designs. I was just mentioning some of the simplicity of the shivan horde ships. If the gtva were to adopt the shivans simplicity, they would be able to build **** faster, but of course never top the shivans or come close to them, but simply be able build faster. The gtva will stick with it's more effective design.
The problem with the shivans numbers is their disposability. Some day the terrans will make a super duper invincible fighter with a beam piloted by the ever restless and obsessed alpha guarding a node with all of the shivans pooring at him until no more exist.
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Yes but the Uber Ship of DOOMTM theme is VERY prevalent in Inferno.
You're the one who brought up the whole Inferno issue. Nobody here said Inferno until you did.
Which is why the gtva should never do that. Make more powerful beams with their awesome designs. I was just mentioning some of the simplicity of the shivan horde ships. If the gtva were to adopt the shivans simplicity, they would be able to build **** faster, but of course never top the shivans or come close to them, but simply be able build faster. The gtva will stick with it's more effective design.
More advanced and smaller ships are the way to go for the GTVA. We should not go for swarming ships, and we should not go for superjuggernauts either.
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Yes but the Uber Ship of DOOMTM theme is VERY prevalent in Inferno.
You're the one who brought up the whole Inferno issue. Nobody here said Inferno until you did.
I reacted to your comment, nothing more.
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From what I know Inferno GTVA don't have a super ships of DOOOOM (exept a secret, unconfirmed Vasudan Juggernaut). After Collosuss failure Inferno GTVA focused on building a few super destroyers (and a few super carriers) than one Juggernaut - it's what they should do in FS2 from the begining.
Super destroyer Odin is cheaper, smaller, more flexible, and have similar forward firepower to a colossus (overall, Odin has less beam firepower than Colly but better placed). It has a large hangar bay but in majority, they have an enormous fighter/bomber support from Warlock super carrier (that won't operate in ship to ship battles, as opposite to Collosus).
So you lost Odin, you still have fighter/bombers.
You lost Warlock, you still have a serious anticap firepower, and some fighter/bombers
You lost Collosus, you don't have anything.
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I was saying 100 smaller ships that are nothing more than a high-powered beam cannon, 2 AAF's and a engine glued together.
That would be very expensive IMO. The reason the Mjolnirs weren't deployed at every Node is that they cost as much as say, building a cruiser or corvette. Think about it. It's only slightly larger than a bomber but it has a beam cannon that is more powerful than a BGreen. They're probably super-expensive and they can't be mass-produced and it just wasn't feasible to make more.
Bull***. They were new, thats why they weren't deployed everywhere.
How can they be that expensive? A corvette has 4 beam cannons, multiple engines, scores of other turrets, large hull and crew costs.
So how can a automated ship with only 1 cannon and 2 small turrets and no crew be MORE expensive? Put some good beam on it (doesn't matter which, as long as its' good) and attack.
As long as bombers are being made without turrets. Why not just make bombers the a beam turret with heavy shielding, engines, cockpit, and bomb bays. Then you could easily come up with something the same size as an ursa if not smaller with the same speed of an ursa. What you'd have is something highly damaging, and possibly cheap? Or instead of fashioning a bomber after a full size anti-cap beam, you could do a bomber centered around a AAA beam. Those do hurt capships too.
If you had a bomber like this you'd probably want to make a bomber centered around taurvi likeness. Treat the AAA beam as a secondary, and have ****ty ass primary weapons.
Bombers and bombs have several disadvantages:
- they can be intercepted. Beams can't
- bombs and bombers are SLOW..heck the ship can jump out between the time a bomb is launched and it hits the hull. Beams are insta-hit.
- bombs aren't reusable (and every bomb costs), a beam canon can fire again and again
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Why not build a ****ing Deimos with 2305982390537895738295739032905739054390523905723 Mjolnir beams on it then? :rolleyes:
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Are we operating on the assumption that the (Odin + Warlock) costs <= Colossus cost?
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FORGET INFERNO.
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Why??
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Because Inferno is not important to this discussion.
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do you think that the GTVA would design a new class of supercapital learning from the strengths of the Sathanis or do you think they would shift toward greater firepower in a smaller package.
Sounds like Inferno GTVA design philosophy
Personally I think that tacticians would learn not to put all their eggs in one basket and R&D would shift toward making more efficient and higher powered beam cannons, or other powerful weaponry, that could be mounted on a greater number of smaller ships (Corvette or Destroyer class) that could out maneuver the primary field of fire of a supercapital and strike at the weaknesses in it's defense.
That REALLY sounds like Inferno corvettes (Phobos) and Destroyers (Oberon?)
Because author this topic ask about GTVA future design philosophy, and INF SCP is about it, I think that it is important to that topic.
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Well technicly the two ships are just used as examples of two new focused sip classes the GTVA might build in the future. We could use any two theoretical ships.
The question is - is the cost of two such ships (battleship + supercarrier) the same as the Collie. It all depends. Given that we have no cost estimate for the Collie nor for ANY ship in FS, such a thing is left largely to a campaign maker.
If you start with the assumption that Colossus Mk2 is cheaper than the flying gun and carrier, then it makes sense to build collies.
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The question is - is the cost of two such ships (battleship + supercarrier) the same as the Collie. It all depends. Given that we have no cost estimate for the Collie nor for ANY ship in FS, such a thing is left largely to a campaign maker.
Well the Orion costs more to construct than paying the crew for 3 years in FS1, so the cost probably went down by FS2. Same with the Colossus. So making an Odin or a Warlock probably costs about the same as building an Orion I guess (especially since in INFSCP the Warlock doesn't have such heavy weaponry).
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I agree that cost would matter.
But splitting battleships from carriers would be more cost effective, coz carrier can stay behind, and battleship can make ship-to-ship battles without bothering about it's fighter don't have anywher to land if it's destroyed.
While Collosus, even if it's cheaper theoretical mk.2 can't perform those two task separately.
for example you have two tasks (carrier operation and ship combat) that each need to take one hour.
within one hour, BS and carrier can perform two tasks, while cheaper (cheaper from BS+Ca) colossus mk.2 could perform only one.
Also as I mentioned if you lost one ship in BS+Ca scenario, it's not such disaster as in Col mk.2 case.
Not to mention two ships can be in two diffrend places, an art that single ship would never be able.
What I wan't to say is that even if BS+Ca might be a bit more expensive, it much more flexible.
....when you have an 80 Jugernauts, you would want to perform as much tasks as possible or you will be overun by shivan swarm.
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The GTVA doesn't have 80 jugs, even in Inferno.
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I ment 80 jugs at the opposing side of your gun :)
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What I wan't to say is that even if BS+Ca might be a bit more expensive, it much more flexible.
Are you sure about that?
The carrier + Battleship combo is also limited. Sending one into another system on its own makes it horribly limited as neither can survive long if a clever enemy exploits its weaknesses without the other one present.
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Not to mention that a Collie Mk2 would probably have more armor than any of the two (being bigger).
A specialized carrier would theoreticly have weak armor and can be destroyed rather easily by a surprise attack, even if the battleship is present.
Imagine a BB+Carrier cruise along together and a Collie Mk2 (or another BB) jump in and focus all fire on the carrier. Carrier goes down before the escorts can take out the enemy. The enemy can probably even jump out, even if heavily damaged.
Congratulations, you just lost the majority of your fighter support.
Now take a Collie in it's place. It's has enough armor and HP to withstand powerful attacks longer than a carrier can and enough firepower to take out the attacking BB.
F'course there is no perfect answer. Both a Colli-like ship and specialized Carriers and battleships have their roles. their good sides and bad sides.
It depends on a lot of factors, such as the composition of enemy forces, are you attacking or defending, positioning and X other factors.
Just saying a Jugg like Collie is better or a BB+Carrier combo is better doesn't really have much sense.
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May I know why you keep thinking that a carrier shouldn't have a great anti-warship capability? They may or may not be ships close to destroyer or superdestroyer specifications with the ability to house MANY spacecraft. Try to imagine an Orion with a larger fighterbay, for example...is that modification going to affect anti-warship and anti-spacecraft capabilities in a so bad way?
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Mobius, I have only a slight problem with you writing coloured and in italics but that small font is JUST ****ING ANNOYING! :mad:
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Is it better now?
It fits perfectly with my title.
EDIT: Umpf...
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It isn't as eyehurting as before but I would still prefer that you used the standard HLP font.
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Is it better now?
It fits perfectly with my title.
EDIT: Umpf...
How does it go with your title?
Your title is in bold.
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May I know why you keep thinking that a carrier shouldn't have a great anti-warship capability? They may or may not be ships close to destroyer or superdestroyer specifications with the ability to house MANY spacecraft. Try to imagine an Orion with a larger fighterbay, for example...is that modification going to affect anti-warship and anti-spacecraft capabilities in a so bad way?
Larger fighterbay = larger area to defend against fighters/bombers (and the Orion is véry poorly defended already) = more reactors are needed = even larger area to defend...
Seriously now:
Carrier + Anti-capship capability = Colossus
Battleship + large fighterbay = Colossus
As TMan said:Both a Colli-like ship and specialized Carriers and battleships have their roles. their good sides and bad sides.
It depends on a lot of factors, such as the composition of enemy forces, are you attacking or defending, positioning and X other factors.
Just saying a Jugg like Collie is better or a BB+Carrier combo is better doesn't really have much sense.
A very wise remark IMHO. But I don't think the GTVA should go above the 3-km limit again.
BTW, stop ***ing about fonts. It's way off-topic.
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How does it go with your title?
Your title is in bold.
It fits...
It isn't as eyehurting as before but I would still prefer that you used the standard HLP font.
Eyehurting? Lightblue? :eek2:
Larger fighterbay = larger area to defend against fighters/bombers (and the Orion is véry poorly defended already) = more reactors are needed = even larger area to defend...
Seriously now:
Carrier + Anti-capship capability = Colossus
Battleship + large fighterbay = Colossus
As TMan said:Both a Colli-like ship and specialized Carriers and battleships have their roles. their good sides and bad sides.
It depends on a lot of factors, such as the composition of enemy forces, are you attacking or defending, positioning and X other factors.
Just saying a Jugg like Collie is better or a BB+Carrier combo is better doesn't really have much sense.
A very wise remark IMHO. But I don't think the GTVA should go above the 3-km limit again.
Ok, more reactors are needed...but please consider the space left to spacecraft. It means less space for internal systems which require energy. Look at the main halls... ;)
Ok but the GTVA will most likely build up a polyvalent warship able to do basically everything. The Colossus could have an even larger fighterbay...as stated before, it would require less energy.
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The Warlcock should be able to defend itself, but it shouldn't me some asshatting assault carrier like it is used in INFR1. In INFSCP the Warlcock is basically a mobile installation.
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An immense warship able to house hundreds of wings and even Argo transports is pretty much like a mobile installation.
The Warlocks are the centres of their respective fleet, that's what the description says.
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If you have 3km long carrier and a 3km long battleship, it obvious that the battleship will have a lot more armor and firepower with little or no fighterbay capacity, while the carrier will have a huge fighterbay capacity.
If you try to tuck everything into both they wouldn't even have a carrier and battleship designations, now would they? You would essentially just be building a bigger destroyer (or a smaller colossus..depends on how you look at it).
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Depends. A carrier could simply have 2x the launch capability of a destroyer or superdestroyer and, given its importance, very special weapons and armor plating.
The name "battleship" doesn't fit well, anyway. Not in FreeSpace, where destroyers and corvettes are bigger than cruisers. "Battleship" can virtually mean everything, names like Dreadnought and Juggernaut would be more appropriate.
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It doesn't matter how you call it, it basically means - big friggin ships with tons of armor and guns.
And no. If you're claiming that a carrier could match even closely a pure slugger than you thrown logic out of the window, shot it and ran it over with a buick. twice.
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Why not? A carrier could be an armed to the teeth warship WITH a large fighterbay. Try to imagine a design that merges these two capabilities. It's possible.
Comments like yours are expectable if you're stuck on the actual concept of "carrier" ship...
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Why not? A carrier could be an armed to the teeth warship WITH a large fighterbay. Try to imagine a design that merges these two capabilities. It's possible.
Comments like yours are expectable if you're stuck on the actual concept of "carrier" ship...
The design that merges the capabilities is known in Freespace as a Destroyer.
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Why not? A carrier could be an armed to the teeth warship WITH a large fighterbay. Try to imagine a design that merges these two capabilities. It's possible.
Comments like yours are expectable if you're stuck on the actual concept of "carrier" ship...
Isn't that basically what the Colossus was? It had the largest fighterbay, the biggest guns, and the toughest hull of any GTVA ship. Too bad we didn't get to see its fighterbay in action much, it always got jammed or sabotaged.
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Why not? A carrier could be an armed to the teeth warship WITH a large fighterbay. Try to imagine a design that merges these two capabilities. It's possible.
Comments like yours are expectable if you're stuck on the actual concept of "carrier" ship...
The design that merges the capabilities is known in Freespace as a Destroyer.
PWNED! :lol:
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The Warlcock should be able to defend itself, but it shouldn't me some asshatting assault carrier like it is used in INFR1. In INFSCP the Warlcock is basically a mobile installation.
The INFR1 Warlock seems incapable of defending itself. It actually had a weak broadside. How annying is that?
An immense warship able to house hundreds of wings and even Argo transports is pretty much like a mobile installation.
The Warlocks are the centres of their respective fleet, that's what the description says.
The Warlock was also supposed to be the most powerful ship in the GTVA arsenal...which it obviously...ISN'T.
It doesn't matter how you call it, it basically means - big friggin ships with tons of armor and guns.
And no. If you're claiming that a carrier could match even closely a pure slugger than you thrown logic out of the window, shot it and ran it over with a buick. twice.
All the large ships in FreeSpace seem to lack armor. They CAN send out a lot of fighters and bombers, but they're not durable enough.
Why not? A carrier could be an armed to the teeth warship WITH a large fighterbay. Try to imagine a design that merges these two capabilities. It's possible.
Comments like yours are expectable if you're stuck on the actual concept of "carrier" ship...
The design that merges the capabilities is known in Freespace as a Destroyer.
You might say that, yes, because if the FreeSpace 2 team were to go into anything more complicated, they would probably have released it a few years after 1999. Seriously, Juggernaut-class is just about as much as they could muster within a year.
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While i do agree that dedicated carriers and battleships would be very usefull and needed in FS we have to draw the line between 2 specialized ships and a ship such as the Collie which by all means can do both and better.
Why is it that a Collie is better? Well because it has the fighterbay of a carrier the heavu weapons of a battleship and more of them actualy and has the biggest armour of them both.
However we must be carefull when we talk about dedicated carries and battleships because each would vary in lenghts armour strenght etc.
For example a dedicated GTVA carrier would 2 or more launch bays in order to deploy fighters and bommbers really fast moderate weaponry on it (meaning beam cannons perhaops one or 2 heavy beams and some slashers depends on its size etc.) and decent aaaf defences. Why is it that it would have moderate to low weaponry well beacause its main armamaents is its fighter/bommber compement.
As for a battleships it should have heavier armour on it a very small fighterbay perhaps no more then 10 wings of fighters/bommbers and powerfull aaaf defences. Basicly a ship armed to the teeth with heavy armour and weapons.
Ppl talk about carriers here like something out of this world like there are no such things in FS at least to the specs i read above well we do have them for the love of god they are called DESTROYERS. If you want to make them as stated above then you already have them you just need to improve on them in various aspects . If you are talking dedicated ships then by all means you must give something.
A carrier sacrifices beam firepower and aaaf firepower for a much bigger fighter capacity. A battleship sacrifices fighter/bommber complement for armour and heavy weaponry.
Also the 3 KM long mark is unrealistic as the GTVA will very fast run out of posibilaties or rather space into which they can put everithing they want.
Sure maybe they wont start building Collie size ships very fast but they can go for 3+ KM ships which can be either similar in design to say a Hattie or an Orion besicly a destroyer on steroids. Or they can go for specialized designs or both at the same time.
Also Why does everyone asume the only way to go is bigger when you can also go smaller . There are 2 sides of this and both could be very efective if implemented corectly.
Basicly have a destroyer smaller the 2 km which has the biggest most powerfull engines and reactors available stick the most powerfull beams you can on it add a decent fighterbay to it some advanced tech would help here cuz well even a Hecate and its tech would become somewhat obsolete in about 5 years time beacuse of advancements in tech thanx to better shivan tech understanding.
Also a Dreadnought class IMO should be about 4 km long have a bigger fighterbay then a destroyer yet have massive armour and heavy weaponry on it coupled with good aaaf defences.
Such a ship would be slowere then normal ships but then agoin iot would be able to smash through 2 or more enemy warships at a time and im talking about 2 destroyers plus cruisers and corvettes . Smaller the the Collie not as powerfull or as armoured but still powerfyull enough to take on superior enemy forces and win.
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Sorry guys, you're forgetting that Inferno Release 1 was rather stupid. In Inferno SCP, the Warlcock is able to defend itself until it can escape, but Odin superdestroyers are used as the strike ships now, not Warlcocks.
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Yup, he's right, in INFR1 Warlock was overpowered (look at mission 2 ;7 )
When I talk about BS and Ca, I imagine them as super destroyer size, not a small juggernaut.
In FS2 avi, they said that withing Collosus hull, you could put 12 Lucifers.
Now compare:
6 x Battleships (all have forward firepower of 3xBFGreen)
6 x Carriers (all have a fighterbay of Collosus)
vs
2 x Collosus mk.2 (I decided to put two, coz mk.1 was builded 20 years - so it was already outdated when she was finished - while modern GTVA could build them a bit faster)
another story is a build time:
When you're in war with multi juggernauts, you want new ships as fast as possible.
20y build time Collie is big NO. in modern shipbuild methods I guess that Collie would be build within 10y.
Collie mk.2 that would be optimized to modern build methods could take 6-8y.
Super destroyer that is only a bit bigger than destroyer would take 1-1.5y to build.
Bigger is better ?? bull****
Every space lord (Space empires 3,4,5, Master of Orion 2,3, Galactic Civilizations 1,2, Civilisations from 1 to 4) know that mid-size ships are the best.
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I think small-sized but heavily-armed ships (Fenrises with MjolnirBeams and Maxims) are the way to go, but they won't be around for the conceivable future (2400+).
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Fenris might be too vuneralbe to fighters, but Deimos would be OK and would bit introduced faster (you would have to less minimize beams/reactors than for Fenris).
However, your mention of Uber Fenris, brougth me to point that shivans do have something like that - Lilith, little m******* that can toast even destroyer.
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I didn't mean a Fenris, I meant a Fenris-sized ship. Sorry.
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Now compare:
6 x Battleships (all have forward firepower of 3xBFGreen)
6 x Carriers (all have a fighterbay of Collosus)
And that's where you've moved into the realms of fanwanked nonsense. The Colossus doesn't even (as standard) carry one BFGreen and now you're saying that a ship significantly smaller than it is should carry 3?
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.....It could if he bring about few Tritons with additional reactors :P
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well even so such small sized vessels could only have a low HP in order to make them fast enough and mobile enough so as to be efective on the battlefield.
Also such ships would be taken out really fast should they come under fire. So gooing small size or in this case midget size is only viable as long as you have the adequate numbers of mid sized and large size ships to go along.
The Deimos IS IMO one of the least apreciated ships as a cap ship hunter killer ship . The deimos could easely benefit from the same beam cannons the collie uses. Im talking about LRBGreens of 2 BFGReens basicly it should be able to overload 2 BGreens to BFGreens if the situation requires it.
Hoever a much more suited candidate for a mid-sized anti-cap warship would be the Iceni . I mean 3 BG all forward facing to engage the enemy . Perhaps a bit of improvement in size and aaaf defences not too much thougfh and that ship would be a superb ship that should be massproduced.
Hell if i were GTVA command i would stop messing around with new experimental designs and go for what works . The Orion have the R&D boys come up with an improved version of the Orion then mass produce the little moster. Simple deadly somewhat cheap since they would not need to go radical on it they already have proven tech that works just go one lvl up on the existing tech. The shipyards should be able to addapt really fast to the changes. So basicly mass produce Orions, Deimos, Iceni and Hattie's hell for fun you could even throw Sobek's since they have proven themselfs on the battlefields to be very powerfull little warships.
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BFGreen is overloaded BGreen. Collie had problems with reactors (maybe they were old type of reactors) so it couldn't overload them for long.
But if Iceni have 3 BGreen, then I don't seen a problem that modern superdestroyer could have 3x BFGreen as standard fire mode (and maybe LRBGreen as secondary fire mode).
Edit: I mentioned 3 x BFGreen because INF Odin has such beam config.
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Why not? A carrier could be an armed to the teeth warship WITH a large fighterbay. Try to imagine a design that merges these two capabilities. It's possible.
Comments like yours are expectable if you're stuck on the actual concept of "carrier" ship...
The design that merges the capabilities is known in Freespace as a Destroyer.
Oh, really? And what about the Colossus?
Now compare:
6 x Battleships (all have forward firepower of 3xBFGreen)
6 x Carriers (all have a fighterbay of Collosus)
And that's where you've moved into the realms of fanwanked nonsense. The Colossus doesn't even (as standard) carry one BFGreen and now you're saying that a ship significantly smaller than it is should carry 3?
:yes:
Incredibly correct. The Colossus had to OVERLOAD its reactors to fire BFGreens. To be honest, I don't think that a smaller ship is able to fire a BFGreen more than once.
The design that merges the capabilities is known in Freespace as a Destroyer.
PWNED! :lol:
Oh really? :p :lol:
The INFR1 Warlock seems incapable of defending itself. It actually had a weak broadside. How annying is that?
I could say the same of the Sathanas.
The Warlock was also supposed to be the most powerful ship in the GTVA arsenal...which it obviously...ISN'T.
But the GTVA sent a Warlock to deal with the Nemesis. The Odin was scrapped. SOC massive ships were also expensive.
You might say that, yes, because if the FreeSpace 2 team were to go into anything more complicated, they would probably have released it a few years after 1999. Seriously, Juggernaut-class is just about as much as they could muster within a year.
I know that the PSX severely limited Hideo Kojima's plans for the Metal Gear REX but I don't think you're correct.
But if Iceni have 3 BGreen, then I don't seen a problem that modern superdestroyer could have 3x BFGreen as standard fire mode (and maybe LRBGreen as secondary fire mode).
Edit: I mentioned 3 x BFGreen because INF Odin has such beam config.
The Iceni has 3 BGreens only thanks to a glitch. They could be overloaded SGreens(does the Iceni fire an SGreen in Endgame?).
The Odin has 3BFBlue beam cannons, result of advanced research. In Inferno R1 "BF"s are just powerful beams, not overloaded ones.
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How in gods name does the Iceni which was designed with those beams in mind and the tech also sais it carries 3 BGreens be the result of a glitch??? Now this i have to see or rathre read...
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Then tell me why the Mentu doesn't have beams, then...
The Iceni has 3 BFGreens only because of "Traitors and Renegades" and the way that mission was designed.
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My $0.02:
Let's start from the Iceni- 3 BGreens, 22 other turrets 90k HP and 998 meters long, no fighterbay.
Make it 2x the size- 6 BGreens, 40 other turrets 180k HP and 2 km long, no fighterbay.
3.5 times bigger- 10 BGreens (imagine them overloaded for 3 minutes :beamz:), 50 other turrets, small fighterbay instead of the dozen more turrets that would fit on it, about 400k HP (at the cost of speed), 3.5 clicks long. Properly used, the BB could kill a Big 'C' (7 TerSlash, 6 BGreen, 50 other turrets, 1M HP), even though it has less than 1/2 the HP, and the C's fighters would have a hard time counter-attacking because the amount of turrets the Collie has would be defending a 2x smaller target.
Add the Carrier, being and overgrown Hecate, with 200k HP, similar anti-capship weapons, and a dozen more antifigher turrets. And, most importantly: >2x the hangars (thus more than a Big 'C', so it might defeat one without heavy ship support from any distance >8 km, given enough ammo and spare parts to keep the strike craft running)
Therefore:
2 ships that would take a lot less resources and time to build could take down a Big 'C'. However, a really expensive Big C Mk 2 could be strong enough to require both ships attacking at once to win.
Also- before anyone writes that these ships are too weak to survive- the first measure would be giving them strong sensors and a bunch of stealth fighters to see the enemy first and strike first; if that fails- these ships would need a quickly recharging subspace drive to warp out of trouble.
And finally- If one of these ships gets pwned and forced to make an evac jump, the other, knowing the enemy's position can simply warp in at a good position to counter-attack immediately, something impossilbe for a single jug.
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That's exactly the typical kind of assumption we must avoid, taking in consideration the Iceni and its asimmetrical table entry.
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That's exactly the typical kind of assumption we must avoid, taking in consideration the Iceni and its asimmetrical table entry.
I think BengalTiger made a good estimate here. The Iceni was obviously a GTVA prototype (come on, you can't design and build a ship like that from scratch in 18 months). Before the NTF insurgency, Bosh was a high-ranking GTVA officer, and he used his contacts to gain supervision on the project, modifying it to meet his own needs (ETAK, nice admiral suite...).
This gives an estimate of what the GTVA was about to do: it would have C&C carriers (such as the brand-new Hecate) and small battleships (of which the Iceni was the prototype). Those 'battlefrigates' could be deployed in groups if necessary. The Colossus would be deployed only in special circumstances.
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You don't know it. Find a canon source citing the Iceni as an original GTVA design. The way the Iceni is designed leads me to think that the ETAK device was to be placed at a certain distance from the engines.
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The Iceni is described as being created at the Freedom Shipyards "under Bosch's direction." I think it was probably done while he was still a supposedly loyal GTVA officer.
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You underestimate the efficience of shipyards. 18 months are enough to build a corvette, I have seen buildings of similar dimensions being completed in a matter of months.
The strange design has something to do with ETAK. You can't deny it.
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You underestimate the efficience of shipyards. 18 months are enough to build a corvette, I have seen buildings of similar dimensions being completed in a matter of months.
The strange design has something to do with ETAK. You can't deny it.
Exactly. It was custom-made by Bosch, it was not a corvette made by the GTVA and simply stolen by Bosch.
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Since Bosch Stole the fricking Iceni from the Polaris shipyards wtf. does that tell you? If it was designed and built by him then he wouldnt have to steal it now would he??? For the Love of the fishheadz you have all the evidence you ned to know the Iceni was a GTVA design Bosch was named there to supervise the development and construction fo the thing he then made a few modification so that it could carry the ETAK and then when the thing was ready he took it for himself. Why should he use his own resources time and well waste time to construct and develop it when the GTVA already did that for him all he had to do was a a few modifications to it hide them so that GTVA command wouldnt know about it then steal it and make a run with it.
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Iceni was a first of it's kind. It always take much longer to construct prototype than industrial series models.
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The construction period of a prototipe can be up to 2x that of a mass produced model already beeing built. Over time construction times can decrease dramaticly since it takes some time to make the whole process more eficient work out the bugs and design errors that may appear etc.
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Since Bosch Stole the fricking Iceni from the Polaris shipyards wtf. does that tell you? If it was designed and built by him then he wouldnt have to steal it now would he??? For the Love of the fishheadz you have all the evidence you ned to know the Iceni was a GTVA design Bosch was named there to supervise the development and construction fo the thing he then made a few modification so that it could carry the ETAK and then when the thing was ready he took it for himself. Why should he use his own resources time and well waste time to construct and develop it when the GTVA already did that for him all he had to do was a a few modifications to it hide them so that GTVA command wouldnt know about it then steal it and make a run with it.
The Iceni TD specifically says "under Bosch's direction." If that means Bosch just stole it then maybe I need to learn English and Latin all over again.
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Then why we don't see other Iceni frigates in FS2? The Iceni is definitely an NTF ship built to use ETAK.
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And we have never seen military commander taking charge of projects for the military submitting designs for new weapons etc before now have we???
Sure it can be interpreted in 2 ways but the fact that the Iceni was STOLEN from the Polaris shipyards means it was a not a project of Bosch's NTF but a project of Bosch while he was still in the GTVA using theyr funds and resources. And for that you need aproval from the Command.
Edit:
Also we dont see any Iceni's in FS2 because the first of its kind was already stolen it was suposed to be the prototipe . Every new ship has a shakedown cruiser field testing etc. Also the way things developed leads me to believe the Iceni was finished shortly before the NTF rebelion. There was no time to start building on a whole new capship calss with the rebelion. And I believe this was the last thing on the GTVA's mind. Remember the Iceni was NOT a massproduced model.
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I think that Bosch planned the rebellion from the beginning. He created the Iceni with approval from GTVA High Command, with help from some of his high-ranking friends up there. When he rebelled, the Iceni was already built or at least mostly finished. He did steal it from Polaris, however, he was also the one who created it. It was always meant for him and no one else.
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You can't prove your theory. What we know leads us to think that the NTF designed the Iceni from scratch.
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Whether he designed it during the rebellion or before the rebellion, I personally, don't care. However, what I do care about is whether or not it was an NTF. It was obviously designed by Bosch. It was not a GTVA design that Bosch stole. It belonged to Bosch and no one else. It was always his baby and nobody could take it from him.
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Correct...it was built with the ETAK in mind and has, in fact, a strange design.
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I can not agree with you Snail on the whole Bosch had it planned all for himself . I mean i do agree that he designed it for his own agenda however i also believe that he must of submited some sort of plans or something to the GTVA. Even if it was designed by Bosch it must of had the GTVA stamp of aproval. Little did they know that the ship was to be stolen by Bosch.
From this regard you could call it an NTF ship but i definetly believe it was originaly a GTVA designed prototype for a new classs of warships. It doesnt matter that Bosch was its designer and supervisor at the time Bosch was in the GTVA so that makes it a GTVA design. The thing is they only got around to finishing just 1 of them.
The timing of Bosch's stealing and rebelion was perfect this way no other ships of its class would be manufactured any time soon so there was no real danger to him from this regard. He basicly waited patiently recieving a lot arsekissing form the GTVA as to how a wonderfull job he did and then...well we all know what happened next .
:D
You can say all you want that it was designed and built during the NTF rebelion il call you brainless. You CAN NOT design test and built a ship in 18 months The building alone would of taken at least 8 to 12 months not to mention designing it and all the advanced tech he had to put into it in order to make it that powerfull and fast.
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You can't prove your theory. What we know leads us to think that the NTF designed the Iceni from scratch.
You don't get the point. Let's take an example. The F-35 Lightning II, aka Joint Strike Fighter. How long have they been designing it, and how many have already been built? Exactly.
Now let's take a SPACESHIP, with MUCH MORE ADVANCED technology, and at least 50 TIMES BIGGER. And you're saying it could be developed AND built by the NTF in maximum 18 months? No way. There are two possibilities:
1. Bosh designed the Iceni himself, and he built it using GTVA money. The GTVA would want to know what it's paying, so they would know what kind of ship Bosh is building. Only then (which is VERY unlikely) do the Terrans realise they don't have any serious anti-capship vessels in development, and they would start planning to build more Iceni's.
2. The Iceni was a secret GTVA prototype for a future battlefrigate, Bosh stole it and finished it off.
Either way, the GTVA would have built more Iceni's. The only other Terran ship with serious anti-capship capacities is the Orion, and it's becoming increasingly outdated. The Colossus can't be everywhere at the same time, so that one doesn't count either.
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Find proofs, then. And who said that the NTF wasn't able to build a ship from scratch in 18 months(or more, since we have reason to believe that the rebellion has been planned before)?
FreeSpaceFreak: Helloo? FreeSpace is in the future!!!
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As I said before, I think Bosch just got approval by pulling a few strings here and there, maybe bribing the odd corrupt official. Once he had done that, he was free to create his own frigate for his ETAK project.
I cannot agree with anyone who says the Iceni was designed to be a new form of GTVA ship. It obviously was not, we are led to believe it was either created during the 18 months of rebellion or before that, or even in secret. It was not a ship that was supposed to be mass produced, and it never was. The fact that the GTVA did not recognize the design (for the first few missions it is called "Unknown NTF" as well as "NTF Frigate," not NTF Iceni. It was a new design which the GTVA either did not know about or were unaware of.
The conclusion: The Iceni was a new design created by Bosch for the purpose of being his flagship and as a place to conduct his ETAK research. It was not and should not be considered a new GTVA design.
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Just designing a fighterplane takes YEARS. A carrier? Even more.
It's VERY unlikely the NTF designed and built it in just 18 months. Design plans were probably started long before the rebellion. It is possible Bosch made some modifications to the Iceni during it's construction, maybe even during the design phase.
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Uhh the Iceni's a frigate, not a carrier but that's not important.
I believe that Bosch planned his rebellion years prior and had the Iceni created a long time before the rebellion. Months or even years before the rebellion.
Ultimately, my conclusion is that it was never a design for the GTVA, and I find it silly to even think of it.
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So the fact that the GTVA does not "recognize" it initiali is suposed to be wonder eh..??
So the fact that the GTVA let Bosch and the Iceni go doesnt make you wonder now does it?? Come on Command was bul****ting you the whole time. They DID KNEW about the Iceni they DID let it escape and they lie through theyr teeth. Come on they even sabotaged the Collie in order to let the Iceni go. They were not so much interested in capturing the Iceni since they already had the plans for it but they were interested in getting theyr hands on the ETAK even Bosch was of little consequence to them.
They just wanted the ETAK and that is it.
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You know I get sick of these discussions real fast.
I wholeheartedly agree.
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@Mobius: The first prototype of the P-51 Mustang, a WW2 fighter, was delivered only four months after the designing was started. It first saw service another 18 months later.
The first F-35 prototype flew in October 2000. We're 2008 now, and it's not yet operational due to the modern tech in it. The tech gap between the Iceni and the F-35 is most likely even bigger than the tech gap between the F-35 and the P-51.
@Snail: Ever heard of Area 51, aka Groom Lake? A lot of new airplanes have been/are being developed there which even many high-ranking USAF generals don't know about, let alone the lone pilot in the field. And Bosh didn't pull the Iceni out of his arse. Even an Ursa is said to cost more than a small moon. Extrapolate that to a frigate, and you get more than a single admiral can pay.
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I think that Bosch was in charge of the Iceni project, then stole it, and the plans to the ship.
Only about 30% :P.
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BFGreen is overloaded BGreen.
Wrong! The LRBGreen is what the Colossus actually had in Hign Noon. The Colossus is only armed with the BFGreen in one mission and never fires it.
Collie had problems with reactors (maybe they were old type of reactors) so it couldn't overload them for long.
It's quite clearly stated that one of the main problems is the heat sinks. You propose to have bigger heat sinks on a smaller ship?
But if Iceni have 3 BGreen, then I don't seen a problem that modern superdestroyer could have 3x BFGreen as standard fire mode (and maybe LRBGreen as secondary fire mode).
How about the fact that that this is significantly more firepower than anything else in its class? It's one thing to say that you think that beam technology has gotten better so you can upgrade the superdestroyers. What makes it fanwank is that you aren't also upgrading the Colossus.
If a superdestroyer can mount 3 BFGreens then a Juggernaut 12 times its volume should mount at least 12 and more likely somewhere between 24 and 32. Now go compare that against the Sathanas' 4 BFReds. Ridiculous isn't it?
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Collie had problems with reactors (maybe they were old type of reactors) so it couldn't overload them for long.
It's quite clearly stated that one of the main problems is the heat sinks. You propose to have bigger heat sinks on a smaller ship?
I'm gonna jump into the fire here and say it is possible. It all depends on how you design a ship. Sacrifices will have to be made of course, since making a ship..making ANYTHING is always a BALANCING act. And there's always poorly designed and well designed ships.
You want really powerful beams? K'.. But you get less oft hem..and less armor..Oh, and your ship will also be slower, since we need to draw more power from the engines. What? You want to keep the armor? Well damn, we'll have to re-size the fighterbay then.. how much smaller? Let me put it this way..call it "my personal shuttle bay". :lol:
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Collie had problems with reactors (maybe they were old type of reactors) so it couldn't overload them for long.
It's quite clearly stated that one of the main problems is the heat sinks. You propose to have bigger heat sinks on a smaller ship?
I'm gonna jump into the fire here and say it is possible. It all depends on how you design a ship. Sacrifices will have to be made of course, since making a ship..making ANYTHING is always a BALANCING act. And there's always poorly designed and well designed ships.
You want really powerful beams? K'.. But you get less oft hem..and less armor..Oh, and your ship will also be slower, since we need to draw more power from the engines. What? You want to keep the armor? Well damn, we'll have to re-size the fighterbay then.. how much smaller? Let me put it this way..call it "my personal shuttle bay". :lol:
By the time they finish redesigning they will have much better Reactors, Heat Sinks, Armor, Weapons, and Engines.
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I think that if TrashMan was a real designer, all his ships would overheat when they did anything else other than move.
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The point is saying that GTVA technology allows you to stick better cannons on a superdestroyer than a juggernaut is ridiculous.
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How about the fact that that this is significantly more firepower than anything else in its class? It's one thing to say that you think that beam technology has gotten better so you can upgrade the superdestroyers. What makes it fanwank is that you aren't also upgrading the Colossus.
If a superdestroyer can mount 3 BFGreens then a Juggernaut 12 times its volume should mount at least 12 and more likely somewhere between 24 and 32. Now go compare that against the Sathanas' 4 BFReds. Ridiculous isn't it?
I don't quite get your point here.
1. The Iceni is a class on its own, there is nothing to compare it with.
2. The Iceni hasn't got a fighterbay => more internal space for reactors, heat sinks, and everything else you need to get 3 BGreens on a ship its size.
3. One BFRed is AT LEAST as strong as 3 BFGreens. Check out the wiki if you don't believe me.
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Sure the Shivans have more firepower in their beams. Why can't we just replicate that power? And while we're at it, replicate their 80 juggernauts? And if we can do that, we can OBVIOUSLY make stars explode, too, can't we?
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I was talking about his ridiculous superdestroyer not the Iceni.
And 12 was a very low estimate for number. Even 24 is low given that his entire fleet of superdestroyers which supposedly mass less than half of a single Colossus have 18.
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"my" superdestroyer DO sacrifice something for 3 x BFGreen.
Collosus has 12 beams, from which 6 are BGreen that can be overloaded to LRBGreen.
If you get rid of all 12 for 3 BFGreen and add modern reactors you would be able to have them, at least for "overload mode".
(I belive that Collie has somehow old reactors, coz it's the core of every ship, upgrading the reactor in the middle of construction would take ages - not to mention that old Tyhons had a lots of problems with old reactors, coz they were unable to refit them will better reactors - this meand that refit of the reactor require complete redesign of ship interior)
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By the time they finish redesigning they will have much better Reactors, Heat Sinks, Armor, Weapons, and Engines.
And so will the other ships. Your point?
You carrier now has a +10 power due to new reactors and can mount better beams. But so does the battleship. The tech level doesn't go up only for your dear ship class. :rolleyes:
I think that if TrashMan was a real designer, all his ships would overheat when they did anything else other than move.
If I were a designer my ships would actually work and be good at what they do.. Your's would just aspolode when you look at them the wrong way. :lol:
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Another point in BS+Ca vs Collie mk.2
Smaller ships are easier and faster to refit than large behemots - another flexibility favor that is needed when you're in war.
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I think that if TrashMan was a real designer, all his ships would overheat when they did anything else other than move.
If I were a designer my ships would actually work and be good at what they do.. Your's would just aspolode when you look at them the wrong way. :lol:
[/quote]
Your doctrine of putting as many weapons as possible onto a ship and just increasing the reactor size would hardly work in-universe, IMO.
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Your's would just aspolode when you look at them the wrong way. :lol:
You mean...lasciviously?
Also, all y'all are crazy. There's an easy and obvious way to take down those pesky Sathani: relativistic kill vehicle impacts.
Sure, you usually use subspace for long-distance travel -- but why not build a powerful fusion torch instead, stick it on a heavy penetrator, station a few in every system, and wait? When you spot one of those big clumsy Sathani coming in from a neighboring system, ignite the RKV's drive, accelerate it up to some ludicrous percentage of lightspeed, and time it to arrive at the node just as the Sathanas is emerging.
Boom! The RKV whaps into the Sathanas with much more kinetic energy than any piece of drifting debris. It's going so incredibly fast by Freespace standards that there's no real chance of intercepting it or slowing it down -- and even if you did, the debris cloud would still do the job.
Now, to be fair, it has a couple weaknesses: the Shivans might see it coming if they have a superluminal sensor system, or they might make another subspace jump before the RKV could arrive.
But still, if it worked, cheap and reliable way to take them down.
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That's too easy and that'd no be fun.
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It really doesn't sound 'Freespacey' to me.
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Your doctrine of putting as many weapons as possible onto a ship and just increasing the reactor size would hardly work in-universe, IMO.
If you think I EVER said, then you are crazy and seeing things.
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Okay, can it the pair of you. If you're not arguing about something actually in-universe you're simply just arguing which means split and lock.
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We are arguing about FS and the future of warship..that's on topic.
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We are arguing about FS and the future of warship..that's on topic.
Ooh, you guys are so frakked now.
It really doesn't sound 'Freespacey' to me.
You're right, it's not. It's more of a hard SF concept.
And actually, I think you and Snail are right -- it'd probably be impractical in the Freespaceverse. There's no evidence to suggest that Freespace drives can propel anything up to those speeds in any reasonable period of time.
Y'know what'd be cool? A beam drive. Instead of a big messy fusion torch, apply the focusing mechanics of a beam weapon to the drive output. Maybe it'd be a good concept for a capital-ship afterburner.
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The design that merges the capabilities is known in Freespace as a Destroyer.
Oh, really? And what about the Colossus?
The Colossus was an anomaly, a one of a kind ship. It's never given a designation, it's just an extremely large, powerful destroyer.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but your idea is for a ship which houses and deploys fighters, and has significant anti-warship capabilities, exactly the same as a destroyer.
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Yeah. So there's no point separating the two cause if they're far apart then I could attack a carrier with my Fenris and pawn it, and then I could attack the battleship with a bomber wing and pawn it.
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We are arguing about FS and the future of warship..that's on topic.
I'm referring to the whole I'm a better starship designer than you are nonsense.
The rest of the topic is fine. Hence the split and lock threat rather than a simple lock.
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I'm referring to the whole I'm a better starship designer than you are nonsense.
Sorry then, Karajorma.
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Yeah. So there's no point separating the two cause if they're far apart then I could attack a carrier with my Fenris and pawn it, and then I could attack the battleship with a bomber wing and pawn it.
It does make sense to separate them.. but it all depends on the situation.
It's not that simple as many here would like it to be.
Having them separate you can do the following: launch all fighters from a carrier and let the fighters and the BB jump and attack the enemy. The carrier is in no danger of being destroyed in the battle, the fighters have somewhere to return to in case the BB is destroyed. At the same time the BB has better survivability and firepower than a regular destroyer and can dish out more damage to the enemy.
If you are on the offensive, Cr + BB is often the best option
If you are on the defensive a collie mk2 is often better.
but this is just a generalization. I say again - it's not that simple. the factors are many.
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I still reckon that the GTVA probably tried to build a carrier with the Hecate and realised that they could simply stick some beams on it and call it a destroyer without massively changing its primary function.
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Hecade doesn't even deserve a destroyer title: she never engage anything bigger than corvette and even against it, we saw her running away, not attacking - she would fit a carrier designation.
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Hecade doesn't even deserve a destroyer title: she never engage anything bigger than corvette and even against it, we saw her running away, not attacking - she would fit a carrier designation.
She still needs to defend herself. There's not point making a carrier with no guns on it simply so you can fit 5 more fighters in it, when it'll just get destroyed, and you won't even get the chance to launch those extra 5 fighters.
Carriers need guns. Battleships might not need fighters, but carriers will ALWAYS need guns.
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Hecade doesn't even deserve a destroyer title: she never engage anything bigger than corvette and even against it, we saw her running away, not attacking - she would fit a carrier designation.
So now imagine how horrifically vulnerable anything with smaller or even no anti-cap weapons would be.
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Carriers need guns. Battleships might not need fighters, but carriers will ALWAYS need guns.
Definitely true. I think most of us agree that the Hecate was designed as a carrier, with minimal anti-capship weapons. The question is: what would the GTVA fight other capships with? Fighters and bombers? Imagine 'Slaying Ravana' without the corvette... It would take ages.
The Orion is too old, the Deimos is severly outgunned by the Sobek, the Colossus is not omnipresent, and let's just not start talking about cruisers at all.
I know I'm probably boring you with this, but the Iceni neatly fills the gap. That's the reason why I think that the Iceni was the one and only prototype of the future GTVA battlefrigate. It has no fighterbays (the Hecate has), and it can wipe out any Shivan vessel the GTVA knew about during the Interbellum. It's even a serious threat to a Sathanas, especially if deployed in groups. (I think a production Iceni would cost about half the price of an Orion).
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I personally suspect that the Iceni was the result of Bosch simply throwing lots of time and money at the problem. The result was a powerful, fast, compact ship which probably cost more than a destroyer.
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I personally suspect that the Iceni was the result of Bosch simply throwing lots of time and money at the problem. The result was a powerful, fast, compact ship which probably cost more than a destroyer.
What would Bosh get the money from? Charity? Military payments have never been high and they probably will never be (that's why nobody who is actually smart wants to be in GTVA Command :D).
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He was still in the GTVA back then, remember?
GOVERNMENT FUNDING (http://www.comicspage.com/comicspage/main.jsp?catid=1876&custid=69&file=20080112csbre-a-p.jpg&code=csbre&dir=/brewster)
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He was still in the GTVA back then, remember?
GOVERNMENT FUNDING (http://www.comicspage.com/comicspage/main.jsp?catid=1876&custid=69&file=20080112csbre-a-p.jpg&code=csbre&dir=/brewster)
Oh come on, the GTVA can't be that stupid, can they?
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Can they?
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They had absolutely no idea that the Saths could cause a supernova by creating subspace distortions around the Capella star. So why would they think that Bosch might be constructing a command frigate for leading a rebellion?
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If he was in charge of the construction during peace time he could get the money simply with underhanded appropriation tricks. If it was started during wartime, well with the resources of 3 star systems under his direct control it shouldn't be hard to figure out.
They had absolutely no idea that the Saths could cause a supernova by creating subspace distortions around the Capella star.
That does raise an interesting point. What if they did know? What if that is why Command was so desperate to destroy the Sathanas that they ordered the Colossus to overload its beams even after the Sathanas' main beam cannons are destroyed. Between the live Shivan subjects and the Ancient records they could know that the Shivans have 6km long ships that can destroy stars but not know they need 80 of them to do it.
In which case even sticking the Phonecia between the Sathanas and the Capella jump node seems less like stupidity and more like desperation.
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I know I'm probably boring you with this, but the Iceni neatly fills the gap. That's the reason why I think that the Iceni was the one and only prototype of the future GTVA battlefrigate. It has no fighterbays (the Hecate has), and it can wipe out any Shivan vessel the GTVA knew about during the Interbellum. It's even a serious threat to a Sathanas, especially if deployed in groups. (I think a production Iceni would cost about half the price of an Orion).
So it was a GTVA battlefrigate? NOT BUYING IT. :doubt:
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As far as I'm concerned either the Iceni was purpose built as a one-off command ship for Bosch (In which case it's too expensive to build lots of them) or it has heavy use of next-gen technology (in which case we might as well talk about destroyers and juggernauts based on the same tech).
But I don't buy that the solution is to just build lots of Iceni class ships and leave the rest of the fleet as is.
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I totaly agree with u on this one Kara. I mean just building loads of battlefrigates such as the Iceni would not be too practical as it is clear that aside from the Hattie and the Orion which while old and a ship which in FS2 kinda shows its age (aaaf blindsports) there are no notable ships to speak of . Ups Sorry I forgot to throw in the Deimso and the Sobek. But the Hattie while powerfull adn with bigger HP isnt meant to deal a one or 2 hit salvo and take out a ship since well it is designed for all round heavy combat. I mean they did theyr best but hey there is only so much you can fit on a ship.
The Orion actualy has a bite worse then anyone expected.
The Hecate well she barks loud but doesnt really have a strong bite. But is does have a very good fighter projection abilaty and very good C&C funtions to it.
The Deimos is a terror to any pilot to take on but has a very hard time dealing with capships because of its TerSlasher beams.
The Sobek while not such a powerfull enemy to fighters/bommbers it does have good aaaf defences but IMO has better beam firepower the its counterpart. But it is easier to take out a Sobek a lot easier then it is to take out a deimos with a fighter/bommber. Its no walk in the park but its not as dangerous either.
Oh and dont get me started on the whole cruiser thing. The only one worth mentioning is the Aeolous but they arent beeing manufactured anymore so.....
Bascly the GTVA has some big holes to fill in its fleets. And while it does make good use of its tech GTVA command needs to improve both its fleets and its tactics in order to exploit its advantages to the fullest.
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I totaly agree with u on this one Kara. I mean just building loads of battlefrigates such as the Iceni would not be too practical as it is clear that aside from the Hattie and the Orion which while old and a ship which in FS2 kinda shows its age (aaaf blindsports) there are no notable ships to speak of . Ups Sorry I forgot to throw in the Deimso and the Sobek. But the Hattie while powerfull adn with bigger HP isnt meant to deal a one or 2 hit salvo and take out a ship since well it is designed for all round heavy combat. I mean they did theyr best but hey there is only so much you can fit on a ship.
The Orion actualy has a bite worse then anyone expected.
The Hecate well she barks loud but doesnt really have a strong bite. But is does have a very good fighter projection abilaty and very good C&C funtions to it.
The Deimos is a terror to any pilot to take on but has a very hard time dealing with capships because of its TerSlasher beams.
The Sobek while not such a powerfull enemy to fighters/bommbers it does have good aaaf defences but IMO has better beam firepower the its counterpart. But it is easier to take out a Sobek a lot easier then it is to take out a deimos with a fighter/bommber. Its no walk in the park but its not as dangerous either.
Oh and dont get me started on the whole cruiser thing. The only one worth mentioning is the Aeolous but they arent beeing manufactured anymore so.....
Bascly the GTVA has some big holes to fill in its fleets. And while it does make good use of its tech GTVA command needs to improve both its fleets and its tactics in order to exploit its advantages to the fullest.
Well said, Alpha 1. Look at the BFGreens, for instance. They can do (MUCH x 21 126) more damage than at High Noon.
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So it was a GTVA battlefrigate? NOT BUYING IT. :doubt:
It doesn't have to be of the current generation of GTVA ships really, though. I've long maintained the Iceni is what you get when you shrink a destroyer down by omitting all fightercraft-related systems, spaces, and crew...and probably a good deal of the amenities common on a deepspace warship. I don't doubt the Iceni used cutting-edge (or perhaps overworked...?) technology when it was built. But it was also using a lot more than it probably had to. But all those plasma blobs used up power that could have been put to better use, and removing the facilities and crew necessary to run the NTF from onboard would gain you some space to put to other uses. I think the end the Iceni was very much a no-frills design save for the inclusion of its command ship capablities and it milked that for all it was worth.
My personal belief is that the Iceni is not, in fact, a new ship class at all, merely one that was never built. During the Great War, prior to the development and deployment of the Ursa/Harbinger combination, the GTA lacked a good answer to Shivan destroyers or powerful Shivan cruiser groups. They concluded what they needed was a "pocket destroyer"; the end result was the Iceni, but it was shelved in favor of the newly proven Ursa/Harbinger combination, which was smaller, cheaper, and quicker to deploy. 20 years later, Aken Bosch, casting about for a suitable ship to punch through GTVA defenses to get wherever he needed to go, and possibly survive an encounter with Shivans who wouldn't listen, dug up the old, viable, yet never adopted concept and had it modernized and built.
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The Orion actualy has a bite worse then anyone expected.
The Hecate well she barks loud but doesnt really have a strong bite. But is does have a very good fighter projection abilaty and very good C&C funtions to it.
The Deimos is a terror to any pilot to take on but has a very hard time dealing with capships because of its TerSlasher beams.
The Sobek while not such a powerfull enemy to fighters/bommbers it does have good aaaf defences but IMO has better beam firepower the its counterpart. But it is easier to take out a Sobek a lot easier then it is to take out a deimos with a fighter/bommber. Its no walk in the park but its not as dangerous either.
Oh and dont get me started on the whole cruiser thing. The only one worth mentioning is the Aeolous but they arent beeing manufactured anymore so.....
Bascly the GTVA has some big holes to fill in its fleets. And while it does make good use of its tech GTVA command needs to improve both its fleets and its tactics in order to exploit its advantages to the fullest.
Well said Alpha 1. It's exactly what I was saying. There are three things the Terrans can use to fill the anti-capship gap in their fleet:
1) The Vasudans (Remember Into the Maelstrom? Eighteen months of civil war are beginning to strain Terran-Vasudan relations. Let's hope the GTVA doesn't fall apart...)
2) Bombers (As I said before, imagine Slaying Ravana without the corvette... It would take too long to be strategically viable...)
3) A battleship without fighterbay, but with great anti-capship abilities. Like the Iceni. ngtm1r's theory does make sense though. The GTVA is probably dumb enough to drop (3) in favour of (2)...
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A reason to believe that an older version of the Iceni existed is actualy in the Tech room where you are told that the Iceni has limited aaaf abilaties and something about it beeing designed with Great war era aaaf defences in mind. So that could be interpreted as a hint to its origins. Perhaps it was designed soon after the great war enede perhaps a few years after but was put under the desk in favor of other things such as bommbers etc.
It does make sence and it would fit the economical hard period of the GTVA at that period in time. I mean they were in the middle of the reconstruction period they could hardly spend the money and resources of a destroyer in order to build a well something a bit bigger then a Sobek or a Deimos.
Hell at that period in time it could of cost a hell of a lot more.
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A reason to believe that an older version of the Iceni existed is actualy in the Tech room where you are told that the Iceni has limited aaaf abilaties and something about it beeing designed with Great war era aaaf defences in mind. So that could be interpreted as a hint to its origins. Perhaps it was designed soon after the great war enede perhaps a few years after but was put under the desk in favor of other things such as bommbers etc.
It does make sence and it would fit the economical hard period of the GTVA at that period in time. I mean they were in the middle of the reconstruction period they could hardly spend the money and resources of a destroyer in order to build a well something a bit bigger then a Sobek or a Deimos.
Hell at that period in time it could of cost a hell of a lot more.
I can confirm that the techroom entry for the Iceni in retail FS2 says nothing of the sort. It might have said that in the Demo's techroom entry, but I'm inclined to think that's just what somebody pointed out somewhere on the wiki page for the Iceni. Anyhow, the ship doesn't even use it's default table dictated loadout in the missions it's featured in for the most part.
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Still, it is interesting to note that the Iceni's a little boxy and lack some good AAA defences. It was probably designed before the Deimos corvette.
Hmm...I sure hope we're not going off-topic... :nervous:
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IF indeed the Iceni was lets say designed before the deimos actualy a few years before that one might say then it fits wel with the overall design and weaponry of the ship.
Also one other thing to note is the Collies extremely long design and building its main reactors and heatsinks could in theory be of an older design so to speak . I mean it would explain why the comander of the Collie says that the beams or rather the heatsinks and reactors were not made to be abused like that for so long.
I'm just throwing and asumption here that with more modern more advanced reactors and heatsinks perhaps the Collie would of done a much better job. Or rather it would not of suffered such damage .
However if you want to talk about failures we can talk also about the Hecate which altough a good ship its aaaf defences should of been a hell of a lot better then they are. I mean sure i can understand the whole concept of carrier in mind design but then you need to offset its weak bams with something else namely aaaf defences.
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I say tactics over firepower. The Node would be the logical place to take it down. It's got to be there.
Maybe some kind of out there node lock down device that would rip the hull of any ship that goes through it. Oooh... maybe Meson Mines... THAT! would be cool :P
Or Some kind of missile frigate that jumps after some stealth missions manage to destroy the weapons of the Sath.
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Well you arent gooing to get anywhere with a missile friggate since well it would take quite a few bombs like the Helio to take out all of the Sath's beams . Also bombs can be shot down beams can not be shot down and they travel in an instants. A good idea for a cruiser fighter/bommber defence scrreen ship but limited in its usage.
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The one thing I'm against in any game is the SUPER-UBER'ness... There should be a line drawn somewhere, a weakness. In the freespace universe the only real "shouting" weakness of any ship is the subspace node.
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Actualy The real weakness of the GTVA warships are theyr beams . The Shivan weakness is theyr offensive oriented design of the warships wichs makes them vulnerable to fighter/bommber attacks.
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My idea for node-defense:
Best:
A massive hollow diamond sphere, slightly larger than the diameter of the node. The diamond sphere itself would be enclosed in a layer or layers of directional heaters pointing towards the interior of the sphere. The entire apparatus would be mounted on a rig connected to massive reactors, for powering the heaters, as well as a set of engines.
When the GTVA gets word of a Shivan advance, the sphere is powered up and the invading Shivans are vaporized as they enter the node. Not only that, if they try to send something as large as a Sathanas, filling the sphere with liquid Shivan. I don't know what trying to form a subspace exit in solid matter does, but it can't be good.
But best of all, if you want to get into the blockaded system, all you have to do is activate the station-keeping engines and move the sphere out of the way.
Bargain Basement:
A hollow, conical-shaped nose cone made out of extremely dense matter, that's then connected to a flat square made out of the same dense matter, connected by at least four strong cables. When the ship exits subspace, it hits the nosecone, pushing it forward and pulling the plane towards its own wormhole. Eventually the square will get pulled to the event horizon, where we now have an interesting conundrum.
Do the cables break? (Hopefully not)
Does the ship stop halfway in and halfway out of subspace, unable to move as it's trying to pull against itself? (Given the speed that ships exit subspace, this would probably cause massive structural damage at best)
Does the square continue to be pulled forward, whereupon it is integrated into the hull of the ship? (Cutting the ship in two and destroying any control, power, fuel, etc connections that might exist)
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My idea for node-defense:
Best:
A massive hollow diamond sphere, slightly larger than the diameter of the node. The diamond sphere itself would be enclosed in a layer or layers of directional heaters pointing towards the interior of the sphere. The entire apparatus would be mounted on a rig connected to massive reactors, for powering the heaters, as well as a set of engines.
When the GTVA gets word of a Shivan advance, the sphere is powered up and the invading Shivans are vaporized as they enter the node. Not only that, if they try to send something as large as a Sathanas, filling the sphere with liquid Shivan. I don't know what trying to form a subspace exit in solid matter does, but it can't be good.
But best of all, if you want to get into the blockaded system, all you have to do is activate the station-keeping engines and move the sphere out of the way.
Bargain Basement:
A hollow, conical-shaped nose cone made out of extremely dense matter, that's then connected to a flat square made out of the same dense matter, connected by at least four strong cables. When the ship exits subspace, it hits the nosecone, pushing it forward and pulling the plane towards its own wormhole. Eventually the square will get pulled to the event horizon, where we now have an interesting conundrum.
Do the cables break? (Hopefully not)
Does the ship stop halfway in and halfway out of subspace, unable to move as it's trying to pull against itself? (Given the speed that ships exit subspace, this would probably cause massive structural damage at best)
Does the square continue to be pulled forward, whereupon it is integrated into the hull of the ship? (Cutting the ship in two and destroying any control, power, fuel, etc connections that might exist)
I've seen loads of ideas like these before. However, I haven't yet heard any that sound 'FreeSpacey' enough to implement them in the universe. These don't either.
The second one is interesting, however... I bet :v: never thought about the possibility...
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Dunno if these are Freespacey, but more node boobytraps:
Shivan Garrote
A long line of taut, vibrating, heated monofilament wire stretched across the 'front' of a node and connected to two capital ships or specially designed thruster-generators. When a large vessel exits subspace, it is cleaved in two by the garrote. If the effect is not instantaneous, the vessels that the wire is attached to can follow along until the process is finished.
Obviously, the downside to this one is that the Shivans can blast the ships mounting the garrote.
Subspace Jujutsu
As an oncoming Shivan vessel exits subspace, a large (robot-controlled) GTVA vessel forcibly grapples to the Shivan vessel and opens another subspace portal, directly in front of the two craft. Unable to slow down due to its own momentum, the Shivan vessel would fly right into the new wormhole (and presumably to a fiery death at the system's sun or resident black hole. Asteroid fields or a planet's atmosphere would also be good exit points.)
Backdoor penetration
A small robotically-controlled bomb is positioned near a jump node. When a vessel begins to form, the bomb races to the back of the node, and as a large room begins to form, flies inside and waits for a few seconds before detonating.
(NB: I'm almost sure this wouldn't work, or else they simply would've had you park your fighter behind enemy vessels in all those 'scouting' missions and simply replay the footage.)
Shivan Aquarium
Place a large aquarium around a jump node. Fill it with dirty, sand-infested water with lots of rocks for good measure. Lasers would be useless, beam cannons and plasma weapons would be diffracted, and missiles would not have any propulsion capabilities. Flak cannons and any ballistically-propelled missiles would have to contend with the rocks.
High-Pressure Chamber
We know that all Shivan vessels are hardy spacecraft, most likely designed in a vacuum, so they must be able to withstand a pressure of at least 0 PSI. To exploit: Find one large container of sturdy material that's resistant to corrosive gas. Fill aforementioned container with said gas. Continue pressurizing until within 80% of container capacity. Station the apparatus at a jump node and wait for a Shivan vessel to jump in. Once the Shivan vessel has finished high-pressure therapy, vent the remains into the depths of space. Rinse. Repeat. Profit.
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Do you realize how much resources and power would be required to pressurize a hundreds cubic kilometers container to at least one Earth atmosphere?? It would be much easier and cheaper to build ****load of Mjolnirs and escort fighters.
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I am deeply entertained by these suggestions, WMCoolmon.
However, they sound like something a post-scarcity hard SF society would try to pull, not something possible in Freespace. Space in Freespace still appears to be relatively dangerous to work in.
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Dunno if these are Freespacey, but more node boobytraps:
Shivan Garrote
A long line of taut, vibrating, heated monofilament wire stretched across the 'front' of a node and connected to two capital ships or specially designed thruster-generators. When a large vessel exits subspace, it is cleaved in two by the garrote. If the effect is not instantaneous, the vessels that the wire is attached to can follow along until the process is finished.
Just tie a lot of such wires to the knossoss sections and set it to maximum spinning :drevil:
Shivan frape, coming right up!
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Dunno if these are Freespacey, but more node boobytraps:
Shivan Garrote
A long line of taut, vibrating, heated monofilament wire stretched across the 'front' of a node and connected to two capital ships or specially designed thruster-generators. When a large vessel exits subspace, it is cleaved in two by the garrote. If the effect is not instantaneous, the vessels that the wire is attached to can follow along until the process is finished.
Just tie a lot of such wires to the knossoss sections and set it to maximum spinning :drevil:
Shivan frape, coming right up!
That really, really sounds like an otherworldly idea. You CANNOT set the spin velocity of a Knossos, and in any case, you'll need wires at least, like what, ten clicks long by one click wide?
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Dunno if these are Freespacey, but more node boobytraps:
Shivan Garrote
A long line of taut, vibrating, heated monofilament wire stretched across the 'front' of a node and connected to two capital ships or specially designed thruster-generators. When a large vessel exits subspace, it is cleaved in two by the garrote. If the effect is not instantaneous, the vessels that the wire is attached to can follow along until the process is finished.
Obviously, the downside to this one is that the Shivans can blast the ships mounting the garrote.
Subspace Jujutsu
As an oncoming Shivan vessel exits subspace, a large (robot-controlled) GTVA vessel forcibly grapples to the Shivan vessel and opens another subspace portal, directly in front of the two craft. Unable to slow down due to its own momentum, the Shivan vessel would fly right into the new wormhole (and presumably to a fiery death at the system's sun or resident black hole. Asteroid fields or a planet's atmosphere would also be good exit points.)
Backdoor penetration
A small robotically-controlled bomb is positioned near a jump node. When a vessel begins to form, the bomb races to the back of the node, and as a large room begins to form, flies inside and waits for a few seconds before detonating.
(NB: I'm almost sure this wouldn't work, or else they simply would've had you park your fighter behind enemy vessels in all those 'scouting' missions and simply replay the footage.)
Shivan Aquarium
Place a large aquarium around a jump node. Fill it with dirty, sand-infested water with lots of rocks for good measure. Lasers would be useless, beam cannons and plasma weapons would be diffracted, and missiles would not have any propulsion capabilities. Flak cannons and any ballistically-propelled missiles would have to contend with the rocks.
High-Pressure Chamber
We know that all Shivan vessels are hardy spacecraft, most likely designed in a vacuum, so they must be able to withstand a pressure of at least 0 PSI. To exploit: Find one large container of sturdy material that's resistant to corrosive gas. Fill aforementioned container with said gas. Continue pressurizing until within 80% of container capacity. Station the apparatus at a jump node and wait for a Shivan vessel to jump in. Once the Shivan vessel has finished high-pressure therapy, vent the remains into the depths of space. Rinse. Repeat. Profit.
You could also get this huge solid chunk of... stuff... and just put it right on top of the node. When the enemy ships materialize from subspace, they're stuck in the middle of it, whether it be solid steel or plastic.
EDIT: And the knossos is ~4.5 km in diameter, not 10.
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That too...my concern with just a large block of stuff is that it would get pushed out of the way, or the wormhole would open somewhere around it.
However if you found something big enough to cover the node... ;7
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That too...my concern with just a large block of stuff is that it would get pushed out of the way, or the wormhole would open somewhere around it.
However if you found something big enough to cover the node... ;7
Hoo hoo hoo...I think I see some reference to Just Another Day there. ;)
The only few things big enough to cover the whole node are the Colossus and Sathanas.
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Or a large asteroid.
Edit: Some get really big, getting it there, and getting it out of the way if allied ships are coming through would be a problem though, well, so would many of the other booby traps too.
In relation to the origianal question. I think the collie is a complete and utter... a slight success. It can take on multiple destroyers very well, it even did most of the work in taking out a sath (but alpha 1 made it do it without getting a day of damage, but stupid command had to make the reactors overload!!), it could take on lucy's coming as fast as possible out of a node and has "More firepower than 5 orion class destroyers combined" (apparently) and has twice the htps. When it looked down the barrel of a sath the captain could of thought, oh yeh, bring it on, i've already taken on one of yous and it was easy (thanks to alpha 1), i've already taken out your ravana, lets see how much of a fight you can put up!! A terrible underestimation. It was taken out in seconds. it was a success at what it was designed to do at the time of building, the GTVA could never of guessed a warship bigger than it and so much more powerfull could have existed. As far as they knew, demons and lucifers were the bigbomberuchies (pronounced big-bomb-ber-uchie), if they had thought the shivans would come in greater force they would of been correct, and to all they knew the collie could handle that as well, but an enemy could be infinite in power if you try to plan bigger, the enemy will always be more powerfull than you if you think about it, you'll never get a warship that can take of an infitey powered warship, never!! So they had to guess at what the shivans could come up with, sadly, they were a bit more powerfull then their estimation, and come on, the juggernaut armada was hundreds of times more powerfull then the lucy fleet. How do you plan for that, the collie could take on something say, ten times more powerfull with the help of alpha 1, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
A small highly powered corvette/destroyer (like a frigate) would be the ideal option, but if you get bigger, you need to get a few, lets hope the terrans have learned not to put all their eggs in one basket, put them in a couple. Sobeks are great, they can handle decent punishment, and can give out fantastically for their size, a terran version of that, perhaps a corvette or frigate centered around a LRBGreen or BFGreen with moderate to low Flak and aaa cannons and what's left could be put into armour (no fighterbay) would be a good anti juggernaut warship, cheaper than a collie and many times smaller you could make several of them and be able to take out a jugg more efectively than a collie. Make other ships that carry the fighter support, like a non moving carrier with severely limited anti-warship weapons but good flak/AAA coverage and bigbarbybanger (pronounced, big-barby-banger) fighterbay could be trhe fighter carrier. but if you invest everything into one big warship like the collosuss, the shivans will go
MMMMMmmmm. TSOUP
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Such an asteroid would be too massive to park inside the node.
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Nah..you just need a lot of engines.
Might be cheaper than paying for all the ship in the blockade.
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Let's make one thing clear: the BFGreen and the LRBGreen are NOT standard beams. They're features.
I think that anti-capship warfare would have to be centered around 3 'pillars':
- Bombers with beams (like the Armageddon (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GTTB_Armageddon), but with a small beam mounted on it).
- Cruisers with 1 BGreen (a GTVA version of the Lilith, though not that strong and therefor cheaper).
- Frigates with 3 BGreens, able to concentrate firepower in at least one spot (the front), like the Iceni.
With these three, and a smarter version of Command, we should be able to give any future Shivan threat a beating, no matter how big it is.
Oh yeah, fighters and fighter-bombers would be stationed on carriers like the Hecate, and that would be the largest ship class in the fleet. Don't take any risks with those eggs anymore ;)
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So, with the massive failure that the supercapital ship the Colossus turned out to be.. do you think that the GTVA would design a new class of supercapital learning from the strengths of the Sathanis or do you think they would shift toward greater firepower in a smaller package.
Personally I think that tacticians would learn not to put all their eggs in one basket and R&D would shift toward making more efficient and higher powered beam cannons, or other powerful weaponry, that could be mounted on a greater number of smaller ships (Corvette or Destroyer class) that could out maneuver the primary field of fire of a supercapital and strike at the weaknesses in it's defense.
For example - the Colossus was extremely powerful in broadside, whereas the broadside firepower of the Sath is about equivalent to that of a Demon. Whereas we all know anything in front of a Sath is toast.
(Also of note: the BIG ASS turret on the front of the Big C that was obviously supposed to be a terrain super-beam that instead they put this tiny ass blob weapon into.. WTF)
I don't really think the Colossus was a failure. Attacking a ship like the Sathanas was something it was never designed to do. The Colossus was built to kill Lucifer-class destroyers, and indeed, it is very good at killing destroyers.
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E. E. "Doc" Smith used this idea in his Lensman novels... not only planets, but also planetary-sized masses of anitmatter.
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E. E. "Doc" Smith used this idea in his Lensman novels... not only planets, but also planetary-sized masses of anitmatter.
Ooh, raw antimatter mines. There's nothing like turning part of the enemy vessel into part of the explosion :D
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Or you could send them atomic candies made out of antimatter. :drevil:
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No-one seems to of replied to my post yet. :wtf: :(
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Speaking of which, I started to make a HTL Collie based on the [V] sketches, but God only knows when that will be complete...my worklist is rather long and cluttered:
CLICKY (http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7947)
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Speaking of which, I started to make a HTL Collie based on the [V] sketches, but God only knows when that will be complete...my worklist is rather long and cluttered:
CLICKY (http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7947)
Like I've said a thousand times before in other posts, take your time; we can wait. :)
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Speaking of which, I started to make a HTL Collie based on the [V] sketches, but God only knows when that will be complete...my worklist is rather long and cluttered:
CLICKY (http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7947)
I've got one thing to say. Keep the center... Well... Off center, because if it's changed it will mess up the :v: missions and other campaigns that use it.
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No-one seems to of replied to my post yet. :wtf: :(
I have, right here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,51360.msg1047934.html#msg1047934) on the previous page. But no-one yet replied to mine. The HTL Collie seems to be more interesting :rolleyes:
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I've got one thing to say. Keep the center... Well... Off center, because if it's changed it will mess up the :v: missions and other campaigns that use it.
:doubt:
I promise NOTHING. :drevil:
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:doubt:
I promise NOTHING. :drevil:
Then they better net go into the mvps.