Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Gamma_Draconis on February 24, 2008, 05:01:06 pm
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I've beaten FS2 and FS1 on medium, and it was all pretty much follow a fighter and shoot it. So I decided to play on Insane and I just got my ass handed to me. My wingmen despite flying "newer and more advance" fighters were losing to Lokis and Hercules. So, is there any real tactic to dog fighting on Freespace? On one of the mission, I was down to 1% health and there was only one hostile fighter with 56%. So I flew head on to him to about 1200 meters and fired all of my missiles and then did a 180 degrees turn while my missile slammed head on to the enemy fighter.
Other than that, it doesn't seem like there's any real tactics you could use. Not to mention at the start of the mission, you have around 2-3 missiles already flying at you. So, does anyone have any tips? Any secrets to dogfighting on Insane?
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Avoid the weapons fire and you won't get hit, pilot.
:nervous:
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Well. Welcome to reality.
Welcome to the Insane difficulty level.
Best training is to join your local air force, get jammed into a jet fighter and train your reflexes to MAXIMUM 0.001 second reaction time.
A High Grade (Saitek Cyborg EVO WIRELESS, anti cable-cluttering) and a uber efficient keyboard layout is key.
For God's sake, always have one finger on the countermeasure button. A B S O L U T E L Y A V O I D any ship armed with anti fighter beams.
Always switch your energy setting apropriate to the current situation.
Now, even for Jesus' sake, AVOID FLYING BOMBERS WHENEVER you CAN. Even if it's this uber sexy, almost dogfighting-capable Artemis.
In a nutshell, avoid capships and beams, never fly bombers and you need to have a APM (Actions per minute; it's a real unit!) of like 2...thousand.
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I think a wireless joystick would hurt your reaction time, not help it, and it wouldn't be as precise as a wired one.
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Yeah, an EVO Force is a safer bet.
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Name your pilot Michael Vick and you should do fine...
Seriously though, I find on Insane it is best to use fast and manueverable fighters, and just avoid gettting hit as often as possible.
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I'm not good at all, but whenever i have somebody on my six, i imagine being them trying to shoot me, and i plot the most complex and hard to hit flight path possible. Maybe I'm a psychopath if i can do that in half a second, but it really isn't that hard. I find flying in a circle in front of your target the best way to **** with the lead indicator, since apparently it doesn't calculate turning speeds either. and since AIs tend to fly like you have a lead indicator in front of your ship, it tends to work with them. I found this tactic surprisingly affective at beams, too.
Another thing to do is to take advantage of Freespace's unrealistic (since sound can't travel in a vacuum) sound system, that being the ability to hear when your opponent fires his weapon. I fly in one direction, and as soon as i hear the enemy on my six fire, i jerk in the opposite direction the lead indicator said i was going to do. To me, it's all about fooling the indicator, since, like i said, AIs fly like they are using one. This works in freelancer too :D
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Well jeez... I either use my 15 bucks Radio Shack mouse or my 10 bucks keyboard that I got from a hardware/general store. I've never used a joystick either.
The biggest problem is my wingmen are just dying like flies. They fly in and then BAM, one of them dies within seconds. Then pretty soon, I'm the only one left and I'm outnumbered by like 5 fighters. Then all I get from Command is, "No reinforcements are available, you are on your own pilot."
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Practice the gauntlets on the port on insane til you adjust to insane working conditions.
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The problem with FS is that it's very difficult to do the whole looking around thing the way you'd like to if you wanted to fly well, so your situational awareness is kinda shot.
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Radar and the R key (nearest threat) FTW.......
I dunno i normally get all fighters to cover me or cover the bombers *(if any) then then punch the afterburner and pray!
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When your wing is flying at another hostile wing preceding playing "chicken" with an enemy fighter (which you will never, ever win on Insane), before you're even in firing range, shoot sprays of your primary at the enemy wing. This tactic seriously does keep them from charging you; something you never ever want to happen on Insane. Helped me out many times.
Other than that, do lots of crazy dodging but try to spare burners. If an enemy on Insane hits you even once, move your ass like you're about to be pwned by a dozen seeking Infyrnos.
Let's see. . . Fury dumb-fire is your friend.
And get your wing to work together. (Shift-A followed by 3 will have everyone attack your target, shredding them to bits.)
Don't even chance a fleeting glance at the Maxim canon.
Fly fast and maneuverable ships. Enemies on Insane will make mincemeat of even the Ares.
Don't break anything expensive during your conquest! (I mean in real life.)
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In other words, on insane difficulty you will end up in this case:
(http://scp.indiegames.us/e107_files/images/freakspace08.jpg)
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My advice is to stay back and play commander. In one mission where you have to lure the Repulse so the SuperSoaker 9000 Deluxe can destroy it, my best advice and tactic is to give my wingmen HercII's and myself fly a Perseus. Fly at the enemies and basically stay at the edge of weapons range--then lure them to the cruiser and keep going for 2 clicks. Turn around and help out, but repeat the maneuver and keep all wingmen back at your cruiser. Anyways--for that mission, don't try to engage in a dogfight unless theres <3 enemies around, and then assign all wingmen to attack one enemy after another. Don't use engage enemy or protect me--always protect target or destroy target.
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It might just be my imagination, but it seems like your fighter is slightly more maneuverable when you use all three axis (axes?) of rotation at the same time. In other words, pullingup/left/rollingleft at the same time helps you make that turn when you get a head-to-head engagement. For me, it's sort of like watching those Maras and Dragons make that nifty little half-sliding turn. I admit it doesn't work 100% of the time, but it's helped me get into position behind the enemy on several occasions.
Other good tactics (or strategies) for me...keep your bursts of fire short (especially if you're using something heavy, like the Kayser) or go with something that doesn't suck your energy down. Subachs (and Mekhus) are pretty good against light fighters and bombers, thanks to that rapid-fire of theirs. (Although you have to be careful about taking on heavy bombers and fighters with them).
If you have a good dogfighting missile, like the Harpoon, use it, but use it wisely. Don't just fire off two or three rounds during your first pass, even if you have a lock. Drain some shields, lock your missile on (at the same time if you can manage it), fire off that last kill shot, then go looking for a new target.
As far as dodging enemy fire, I always try to just jerk the controls almost at random. This works okay against fighters, but you'll need to out turn them and get in behind. Getting out of range for a few seconds will work okay against "dumb" targets, but interceptors and attack fighters will still catch your rear.
Beam turrets are best avoided altogether, usually by never getting within close range of them. This is where trebuchets and maxims really come into their own, because they both have the range to let you engage a cruiser or destroyer's turrets without ever coming into weapons range of the ship itself.
Good luck.
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It might just be my imagination, but it seems like your fighter is slightly more maneuverable when you use all three axis (axes?) of rotation at the same time. In other words, pullingup/left/rollingleft at the same time helps you make that turn when you get a head-to-head engagement. For me, it's sort of like watching those Maras and Dragons make that nifty little half-sliding turn. I admit it doesn't work 100% of the time, but it's helped me get into position behind the enemy on several occasions.
sounds like an optical illusion to me
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It might just be my imagination, but it seems like your fighter is slightly more maneuverable when you use all three axis (axes?) of rotation at the same time. In other words, pullingup/left/rollingleft at the same time helps you make that turn when you get a head-to-head engagement. For me, it's sort of like watching those Maras and Dragons make that nifty little half-sliding turn. I admit it doesn't work 100% of the time, but it's helped me get into position behind the enemy on several occasions.
sounds like an optical illusion to me
It's harder for the AI to shoot, so you dodge the shots. Another strat I had for when you HAD to fly a bomber is to keep at about 1/2 to 1/3 speed and use the burners in bursts to avoid missiles. It's hard to do, but worth it. Plus, you'll get completely owned every time you approach a cap ship with a bomber.
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Oh, that tactic?
Yeah, i find it really affective, though my joystick doesn't have R axis, so i gotta use the keyboard.
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SuperSoaker 9000 Deluxe
Hmm, played JAD recently? :lol:
Anyway, back on topic:
Real dogfighting is hard to simulate with available technologies. In order to survive (a.k.a. Pass Flight School), a pilot has to master situational awareness. The key to situational awareness is the ability to quickly check your surroundings. Since the technology to do that in space sims is limited, achieving situational awareness is difficult. Also, in combat only a few shots are required to either debilitate or neutralize an enemy craft. Even with the shields from Freespace you are still flying fairly sensitive craft that is highly susceptible to vital system damage. If a developer were to model this in a game, the user would quickly lodge his joystick into his monitor after dying for the umpteen-millionth time.
Further compounding this dilemma is the fact that things in space have a known tendency to keep moving in the same direction at the same velocity. We're used to having planes that require engines that constantly burn to keep the craft flying. Too, we use flaps even in modern aircraft as the main methods of maneuvering. In space you must use either use engine ports that can direct their output (making the craft less maneuverable) and/or using maneuvering jets to alter the direction of the craft. Both methods require intricate systems that can be easily damaged in a dogfight. Once again, if a developer included this into a game the user would rip apart their joystick by hand out of the frustration caused by their umpteen-billionth death.
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Dual fire or single shot for missiles? For primaries? Should I go for the firing slot that has more firing ports? I find using 2 ports at the same time very draining on energy, so that's out of the question unless I'm at point blank.
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It might just be my imagination, but it seems like your fighter is slightly more maneuverable when you use all three axis (axes?) of rotation at the same time. In other words, pullingup/left/rollingleft at the same time helps you make that turn when you get a head-to-head engagement. For me, it's sort of like watching those Maras and Dragons make that nifty little half-sliding turn. I admit it doesn't work 100% of the time, but it's helped me get into position behind the enemy on several occasions.
sounds like an optical illusion to me
It's not. Just a very, very good tactic.
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SuperSoaker 9000 Deluxe
Hmm, played JAD recently? :lol:
Anyway, back on topic:
Real dogfighting is hard to simulate with available technologies. In order to survive (a.k.a. Pass Flight School), a pilot has to master situational awareness. The key to situational awareness is the ability to quickly check your surroundings. Since the technology to do that in space sims is limited, achieving situational awareness is difficult. Also, in combat only a few shots are required to either debilitate or neutralize an enemy craft. Even with the shields from Freespace you are still flying fairly sensitive craft that is highly susceptible to vital system damage. If a developer were to model this in a game, the user would quickly lodge his joystick into his monitor after dying for the umpteen-millionth time.
Further compounding this dilemma is the fact that things in space have a known tendency to keep moving in the same direction at the same velocity. We're used to having planes that require engines that constantly burn to keep the craft flying. Too, we use flaps even in modern aircraft as the main methods of maneuvering. In space you must use either use engine ports that can direct their output (making the craft less maneuverable) and/or using maneuvering jets to alter the direction of the craft. Both methods require intricate systems that can be easily damaged in a dogfight. Once again, if a developer included this into a game the user would rip apart their joystick by hand out of the frustration caused by their umpteen-billionth death.
Well, in a realistic war, the guy might be shooting in your general direction but not actually with the intent of hitting you, either as posturing or to fool his superiors into thinking he's trying to kill you. Most WWII pilots never scored a single kill, yet many aces had dozens, because the aces would kill without hesitation.
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As far as the axis rotation trick goes, like I said, it sometimes works, it sometimes doesn't. (Depends on difficulty and opponent.) It does look cool to watch, though.
I use a gamepad when I fly...not quite as realistic (if you can be realistic when you're flying a fictional spaceship against fictional aliens) but the only trouble I ever have with it is when I want to communicate with my wingmen or need a rapid shield boost.
Re: Single or Double Shots
This is another case for the low-power guns vs. high-powered ones. Subachs don't suck much energy, so you can go rock'n roll with them for quite awhile, as opposed to a full load of Kaysers & Maxims. You really just have to plan ahead based on your mission's profile, and your ability to make your shots count.
Double or Single Missiles--again, it's a question of your mission, and your loadout. I try not to dogfight with missiles unless I'm up against the wall. Target locking missiles (Hornet, Tornado, Harpoon, and Trebuchet) are great if you can get that target locked--which at higher difficulties means you have to be at a distance. At close range, the only missile that's ever helped me out is the Tempest. You can treat that missile like a third bank of guns, but remember it's going to run out eventually, too.
Then there's the bigger bombs (Cyclops, Helios)...I almost always fire those off in pairs, just because of the reload time on them. If you're going to be waiting twenty seconds or more to fire off the next salvo, you might as well get the most out of it and fire off both shots.
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I've never played mutliplayer, but I do single-player on Insane all the time. It's more a matter of staying out of dogfights than "winning" them. If you're being alone with five Maras, my advice is to restart the game rather than pull some super-fancy trick. You've already screwed up; don't just go charging in there next time. You have cannon fodder, you know. They're called "Alpha Wing".
Keep your wingmen together for mutual protection (C-3-8/C-3-5 usually works), stay near friendly flak, try to engage the enemy piecemeal rather than all at once... just use your head. Rambo is not your role model here.
Now, on linked secondaries. Your secondaries should virtually always fire linked unless you don't have access to a support ship. FreeSpace gives you unlimited missile reloads. Use them. I prefer a missile with a high rate of fire, such as Harpoon in FS2 or Fury in FS1 (since in FS1 you can't just use guided missiles as n00b sticks).
At close range, the only missile that's ever helped me out is the Tempest.
Firing a few shots at the AI will cause it to evade, which usually opens up the range enough for a missile shot. Yes, oftentimes you can't "dogfight" with missiles, but there are plenty of ways of opening distance and getting a clear shot. But again, on Insane your goal is to win without getting into messy fights in the first place.
edit: Oh, and the joystick. I have a Logitech Wingmen force feedback with a busted centering spring... and busted force feedback. So just get used to what you have.
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I've never played mutliplayer, but I do single-player on Insane all the time. It's more a matter of staying out of dogfights than "winning" them. If you're being alone with five Maras, my advice is to restart the game rather than pull some super-fancy trick. You've already screwed up; don't just go charging in there next time. You have cannon fodder, you know. They're called "Alpha Wing".
Keep your wingmen together for mutual protection (C-3-8/C-3-5 usually works), stay near friendly flak, try to engage the enemy piecemeal rather than all at once... just use your head. Rambo is not your role model here.
Now, on linked secondaries. Your secondaries should virtually always fire linked unless you don't have access to a support ship. FreeSpace gives you unlimited missile reloads. Use them. I prefer a missile with a high rate of fire, such as Harpoon in FS2 or Fury in FS1 (since in FS1 you can't just use guided missiles as n00b sticks).
At close range, the only missile that's ever helped me out is the Tempest.
Firing a few shots at the AI will cause it to evade, which usually opens up the range enough for a missile shot. Yes, oftentimes you can't "dogfight" with missiles, but there are plenty of ways of opening distance and getting a clear shot. But again, on Insane your goal is to win without getting into messy fights in the first place.
edit: Oh, and the joystick. I have a Logitech Wingmen force feedback with a busted centering spring... and busted force feedback. So just get used to what you have.
My Wingman Force 3D has Force Feedback that is nonfuctional in Vista. I use it as a centering spring--not that bad. Anyways--one of the worst parts of Insane is the AI will try stuff to make you commit suicide, or seem to be doing it themselves. One great example from another game is a fighter that just KEEPS approaching. You have a hard time getting a clear gun path when your opponent has been firing at you for a while. That, and most dogfights I've been in are making passes and avoiding primary fire--even Subachs drain your shields quickly.
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My Wingman Force 3D has Force Feedback that is nonfuctional in Vista. I use it as a centering spring--not that bad. Anyways--one of the worst parts of Insane is the AI will try stuff to make you commit suicide, or seem to be doing it themselves. One great example from another game is a fighter that just KEEPS approaching. You have a hard time getting a clear gun path when your opponent has been firing at you for a while. That, and most dogfights I've been in are making passes and avoiding primary fire--even Subachs drain your shields quickly.
Yep, even if you're stuck with a half-broken Wingman, it's not the machine, it's the man.
Like you said, the major flaw of FreeSpace AI is that it's not agressive enough. Not a "flaw" so much as a game balance measure. If the computer was anywhere near as focused as a human pilot, the enemy fighter waves would grind you down with that kind of numerical superiority. But as it is, all you have to do is fire a few shots and the AI runs away.
Good luck with those "passes" though... because it doesn't sound like a good FreeSpace tactic, to me at least. A key part of the game is to keep the pressure on and down the enemy's shield quadrants before they can be recharged or redistributed. You need continuous fire. I don't know how you manage that with in-and-out passes. But apparently it works for you.
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In and out works... when there's less than two fighters trying to kill you and you are very maneuverable and can swap targets since one will always try to be behind you while the other is running away from you.
Basically, I can't do passes very long. Generally it's get the guy off my back, set engines to full, and burner out of range. The hardest part I really found with Insane AI is it is ALWAYS exactly on your lead indicator and they ALWAYS fire with both banks. That being said, it gets to be a nightmare facing a Myrmidon or Herc... yeah they're reasonably big, but they have such forward firepower that it drains your shields like nothing else can.
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I always suck at being outnumbered by more then 2. I find it impossible to stay on somebody's ass and cover my own at the same time.
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Tempests make up for that--if you can damage a ship 20-25% of the way after taking out shields, you're doing good. I've done it a few times that I make a slower run so the next guy is up on my arsch. Usually you can force one of the hostiles off of you and take care of the other. Usually you have to do a good deal of hull damage, though. Two or three passes on one guy is commonly "enough" to force him off, where you can 1v1 the other. By the time the damaged fighter wants to kill you again, you should have your target down most of the way or completely dead.
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That's why I decided to use less enemy fighters in my campaign, but boost the AI level. :D
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Insane difficulty is sooo much fun, although annoying at the same time....
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That's why I decided to use less enemy fighters in my campaign, but boost the AI level. :D
...and who helped you out with that? *cough* *cough*:P
I love dogfighting at high speed with Dragons. I also love using Tempests.
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SuperSoaker 9000 Deluxe
Hmm, played JAD recently? :lol:
Anyway, back on topic:
Real dogfighting is hard to simulate with available technologies. In order to survive (a.k.a. Pass Flight School), a pilot has to master situational awareness. The key to situational awareness is the ability to quickly check your surroundings. Since the technology to do that in space sims is limited, achieving situational awareness is difficult. Also, in combat only a few shots are required to either debilitate or neutralize an enemy craft. Even with the shields from Freespace you are still flying fairly sensitive craft that is highly susceptible to vital system damage. If a developer were to model this in a game, the user would quickly lodge his joystick into his monitor after dying for the umpteen-millionth time.
Further compounding this dilemma is the fact that things in space have a known tendency to keep moving in the same direction at the same velocity. We're used to having planes that require engines that constantly burn to keep the craft flying. Too, we use flaps even in modern aircraft as the main methods of maneuvering. In space you must use either use engine ports that can direct their output (making the craft less maneuverable) and/or using maneuvering jets to alter the direction of the craft. Both methods require intricate systems that can be easily damaged in a dogfight. Once again, if a developer included this into a game the user would rip apart their joystick by hand out of the frustration caused by their umpteen-billionth death.
Well, in a realistic war, the guy might be shooting in your general direction but not actually with the intent of hitting you, either as posturing or to fool his superiors into thinking he's trying to kill you. Most WWII pilots never scored a single kill, yet many aces had dozens, because the aces would kill without hesitation.
like shivans would shoot at you without trying to kill you :doubt:.
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How many of us have actually fought a dog?
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I did it today. A dog affected by "leis-h?-maniosi", something that could bring an human to a situation far worse than yours, Dekker :nod:
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Eh? :wtf: what's that do? Also manticores are the best looking shivan fighters ;7
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That disease kills if people aren't lucky.
Manticores aren't good looking...
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How many of us have actually fought a dog?
Actually, I honestly did. This one dog at my bus stop keeps barking at me every morning, and one time it got out of it's invisible fence, or something like that and it started trying to bite me. Needless to say I started kicking it, and after a few moments of it jumping around and me shoving it to the side and kicking it the bus came. I sort of ran on to the bus and the bus driver just sorta looked at me like I was some kinda homeless person.
If any of this applies to Freespace, then I'd say take a few pot shots, evade a bit, and come around for another run.
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I love dogs don't get of wrong, but chavs with crazy mastiffs deserve to be smote.
Basilisk is also a shecksy fighter.
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Dogs that transmit diseases are far worse than dogs that bite.
Basilisk? :eek2:
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he must be drinking again.
Taurvi FTW :D
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Mara. There's no substitute for getting in close and launching Tempest after Tempest at some poor bloke's arse.
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You could use the maxim to get them from 2k .p
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Obviously some of this isnt relative in space
How to live and die in the virtual sky:
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/acmintro.htm
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4151/24aj2.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
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You could use the maxim to get them from 2k .p
Not if they have shields.
Plus, the Maxim depletes your gun energy within seconds.
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plus, it's horribly inaccurate, and it shakes your vision (a thing i find VERY annoying with the afterburner).
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I find maxims and trebuchets capable of taking out even bombers like the Seraphim and Nephilim which would normally survive dual trebs. You launch the trebs, and you can either fire your maxims before or after they hit (or both). If you fire before, the maxim does enough shield damage to weaken their shields a little, so by the time your missiles hit, they will have less shields to chew through. It is probably more effective to fire them after though, when at least one quadrant is all-but gone, and your maxims can just chew through their hull.
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The maxim did me well back on squadwar in my sekhmet *remembers fondly
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Obviously some of this isnt relative in space
How to live and die in the virtual sky:
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/acmintro.htm
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/4151/24aj2.gif) (http://imageshack.us)
I don't see the difference in dogfights with missiles. Everything changes with guns.
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plus, it's horribly inaccurate, and it shakes your vision (a thing i find VERY annoying with the afterburner).
That's why chase view is handy.
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The maxim is still inaccurate, though.
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The Maxim actually has perfect accuracy, just like any of the FS2 primaries. If you're trying to hit something at a long distance, you generally want to aim before firing (or fire in short bursts if it's moving) to counter the shudder effect.
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I don't see the difference in dogfights with missiles. Everything changes with guns.
Missiles fly lead pursuit courses, so launching from a lead-pursuit angle gives the missile an energy advantage and a better probability of kill. If you launch from lag pursuit, the missile needs to spend a lot of energy turning, which loses airspeed and runs the risk of breaking track on the target.
That is in the real world, at least. I guess it kind of applies to Freespace, in reference to some missiles.
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The Maxim actually has perfect accuracy, just like any of the FS2 primaries. If you're trying to hit something at a long distance, you generally want to aim before firing (or fire in short bursts if it's moving) to counter the shudder effect.
Not if you add $FOF:, but that's non canon anyway...
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That is in the real world, at least. I guess it kind of applies to Freespace, in reference to some missiles.
Yeah, it's definetely true for the harpoon.
In fact, Freespace has probably the smartest missiles i've ever seen. Every other game with missiles (including freelancer and every first person shooter to date) has lag-homing missiles. Because the designers are too lazy to implement a homing missile script, they make the missiles super fast with a very slow turning speed, making them pathetically easy to dodge by simply flying at a right angle to the missile's trajectory. And people always say i'm hacking when i dodge a huge 30+ volley of missiles in halo because they all fly this way...
Of course, thats what makes the hornet so easy to dodge too. But the flying in freespace is so fast that it's hard to line up the right angle to dodge when your constantly being fired upon, and the hornet also has a rather large turning speed for a lag missile.
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Aww brings back memories.
I remember back in the day I took LOA--Auger and LOA--Riggs on, 2 v 1. It was so much fun. Both died out because nobody could figure out how to do the barrel roll back then. It was a secret only used by 4th Angels Squadron members, specifically taught by ICE-4th :)
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Those are some names from the past. . . ICE.. Whoaaa. Do you remember Suzzanna from Darkwing?
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I don't see the difference in dogfights with missiles. Everything changes with guns.
Missiles fly lead pursuit courses, so launching from a lead-pursuit angle gives the missile an energy advantage and a better probability of kill. If you launch from lag pursuit, the missile needs to spend a lot of energy turning, which loses airspeed and runs the risk of breaking track on the target.
That is in the real world, at least. I guess it kind of applies to Freespace, in reference to some missiles.
Only if the killer is close to the target. I don't think there are any difference when the distance is considerable.
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Yea, I remember Suzanna. Her and Mustang used to play late at night all the time.
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I think i remember her too...it was stupid being a 9 year old kid in the darkwing squad :wakka:
Of course, i was 9 years old when i played multi, meaning i maybe only THOUGHT i was on Darkwing :P i think i was, though....