Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: eliex on March 13, 2008, 03:03:09 am
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Why is the GTVA fleet and (allies) so stretched compared to the 2nd Incursion Fleets (minus the 80 juggernauts)?
It took quite a long time to build such a Colossus not to mention other destroyers.
The GTVA have over 10 star systems under their control.
It can't possibly be the reason that there is not enough people or resources to make an equivalent of the Sathanas Fleet right?
Star Systems are flipping MASSIVE!
If there were 10 Earth-like planets in a system there would be already 60 billion people: take 20 billion people as conscripts just in one system!
Fine, minus 5 billion for defence of planets, kill pirates etc. Still 15 billion!
Unless there is not enough people to fully populate 10 star systems without cloning about 100 of each person on this planet if Freespace *might* be real.
Any comments?
p.s (I think that is as clear as I can make it)
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who the heck says, that every ex-colony is as huge as earth was.....hey.....these were COLONIES! nothing more....
and IIRC even one of the biggest colonies capella even had only 250 mio peoples......
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Why is the GTVA fleet and (allies) so stretched compared to the 2nd Incursion Fleets (minus the 80 juggernauts)?
It took quite a long time to build such a Colossus not to mention other destroyers.
The GTVA have over 10 star systems under their control.
It can't possibly be the reason that there is not enough people or resources to make an equivalent of the Sathanas Fleet right?
Star Systems are flipping MASSIVE!
If there were 10 Earth-like planets in a system there would be already 60 billion people: take 20 billion people as conscripts just in one system!
Fine, minus 5 billion for defence of planets, kill pirates etc. Still 15 billion!
Unless there is not enough people to fully populate 10 star systems without cloning about 100 of each person on this planet if Freespace *might* be real.
Any comments?
p.s (I think that is as clear as I can make it)
10 life supporting planets in each system? There are less than 10 planets and only ONE is capable of supporting life in this solar system, and that's by being at a suitable distance from the Sun AND being very lucky. If there are so many life supporting systems out, we would bee under alien domination 5000 years ago or never even had the chance to develop to this stage by getting wiped and someone moved in.
Assuming 60 billion people, conscript 20 billion, 33.33% of the living population. GTVA is some brutal military dictatorship on permanent war footing with EVERY able bodied males AND females have to serve full time between the ages of 18 and 40, while others are on reserve list until they die?
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If there were 10 Earth-like planets in a system there would be already 60 billion people
Alrighty. What proof do you have on your 'ten inhabitable planets per system' theory? Like MT said, we have one inhabitable planet in this system. There is one other planet that might support life if a fully isolated complex was built onto its surface. The rest are ****. Or have you thought about moving to Jupiter? Or Venus?
And the amount of population... they'd have to multiply like rabbits in order to fill up the 6 billion people quota you seem to be using in this theory. And it's not likely that every time a new planet is found, the existing human population is divided evenly so that the same amount of people is present at every planet.
And let's not forget about canon information. Capella had 250 million refugees. Meaning that there were probably the same or slightly larger amount of people there before the second war. That's pretty much what Indonesia has nowadays. That's right. They didn't fill up the system with people. It was a colony.
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whyle Capella was a Heavely populated colony what about Regulus and Polaris or Deneb . If im not mistaken these were canon colonies even in FS1 . Now im not the one to say that the GTVA had sistems as heavely populated as Sol was but he does have a point there. I mean we keep hearing about horrific losses to the GTVA milatary .
Agreed they suffered some losses but even so those losses are so small its not even worth mentioning as horrific losses when the ballance of 2 species survival is at stake.
Im asuming the entire GTVA yeah you heard me vasudans and terrans alike number about 10 billion total .
Hell lets just say they number 6 billion about the number Earth has today how come a few hundred thousand dead are such a huge blow?? Hell more soldiers were killed in WW2 .
Considering all this plus the tech. advancement the GTVA should be able to replenish its ranks of pilots and crewmen in what 2 or 3 months top? And that is assuming they had incredibly limited reserve troops. Like enough to crew maybe 10 percent of the original fleet. And that is just stooooopid.
Oh and dont give me the whole experienced crews thing cuz i say thats bulls*** . Most of the crews and pilots of the GTVA had no action previsous to the NTF war and the shivan war.
And most of them were killed there .
Oh yeah and when the survival of a race is aat stake like it is for the GTVA dictatorship or whatever you bet your sorry ass civil right and freedoms go out the window . First we survive then you can ***** all you want about human freedoms and stuff. It is only logical.(And before anyone gets angry here americans loose more and more civil rights and freedoms every day and theyr survival as a people is not in question yet.)
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In 2335, the destruction of the Lucifer superdestroyer collapsed the Sol jump node in Delta Serpentis, severing all contact with Earth.
The fate of the Terran home planet remains open to speculation, though a number of scenarios are possible. As the center of an interstellar community, Earth could not survive in isolation without a radical transformation of its political and economic structures. On this point, there is no disagreement. However, the question remains whether this transition occurred peacefully or whether Terran society collapsed into anarchy. Strong arguments have been advanced for both sides.
For generations, Earth had been the political, economic, and cultural center of Terran civilization. Humans still measured time in hours, days, months, and years. They named their ships after the mythological figures of ancient Terran civilizations, and systems were still identified according to the constellations observed from Earth. The planet served as capital of the GTA, and the bulk of the Terran industrial base was located in the Sol system. Offworlders identified their nationality according to the old Earth boundaries, though nation-states dissolved after the discovery of subspace and the emergence of an interstellar Terran society.
Seems pretty obvious why the GTVA was struggling. Nuke all the first world countries overnight and see what happened to the economies of all the other nations over the next 32 years.
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What does GTVA's struggle have to do with population numbers?
Oh, and if I'm not mistaken elix didn't claim there are 10 habbitable planets PER system, he used a "IF Sol had 10 habitable planets" as comparison to try and calculate the number of people in the GTVA (since it's assumed it does have at lest 10 habitable planets)
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What does GTVA's struggle have to do with population numbers?
Oh, and if I'm not mistaken elix didn't claim there are 10 habbitable planets PER system, he used a "IF Sol had 10 habitable planets" as comparison to try and calculate the number of people in the GTVA (since it's assumed it does have at lest 10 habitable planets)
If the GTVA struggles, there's probably little time for excessive breeding.
And he did claim that there are 10 habitable planets per system:
If there were 10 Earth-like planets in a system there would be already 60 billion people
That is highly exaggerated. Even one inhabitable planet per system is exaggerated. We could, of course, assume that the GTVA is so almighty that they can inhabit every piece of rock that they come across. But there's still little to be done with gas giants. Or... did either of you have any plans?
Edit: Just noticed... pieces of rock are one thing but eliex specifically said "Earth-like". That's even more unlikely.
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Capella, a "densely populated starsystem" has only 250 million people.
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Agreed howeevr what is the difference between a desly populated colony and a planet that is either vasudan or terran . I mean what about Regulus and Polaris? They were colonies that to my understanding were fairly populated even during FS1 era . If that is the case how populated are they?
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I say there are 50 billion people tops in the whole of the GTVA.
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Also ppl seem to believe that the GTVA is always on short supply when regarding fleet deployments. I say that is wrong I mean the GTVA fleets were gooing through a massive refitting and reequiping process with new ships new fighters new weapons etc. So at that particular point in time we can agree that they must of had theyr amrde forces at an all time low so to speak. Since well at least part of the GTVA pilots and crews could not have had a ship or were waiting for a ship to be completed.
Also let us not forget that most of the GTA fleet was based in SOL and most GTA fleets along with posibly the remaining at least 1 vasudan fleet would been stationed in SOL in a last attempt to hold the line agains the lucifer. Even so we see quite a few Orion class destroyers out there.
This leads me to believe that the GTA fleet was much more massive then anyone expected. With shiops posted around in numerous sistems key junctions anc omd/trade hub's .
I mean it is a safe bet that each GTVA fleet had at LEAST 1 destroyer perhaps 2 . And we can safely asume there can be at least 12 to 14 fleets per race that bring us to a grand total of 24 to 28 fleets.
That is not such a high number nor is it low. But remember the full wartime mahine of the GTVA was not fully engaged untill after the shivan threat appeared. And by that time well lets just say they had a lot of building and repairing to do.
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whyle Capella was a Heavely populated colony what about Regulus and Polaris or Deneb . If im not mistaken these were canon colonies even in FS1 . Now im not the one to say that the GTVA had sistems as heavely populated as Sol was but he does have a point there. I mean we keep hearing about horrific losses to the GTVA milatary .
Agreed they suffered some losses but even so those losses are so small its not even worth mentioning as horrific losses when the ballance of 2 species survival is at stake.
Im asuming the entire GTVA yeah you heard me vasudans and terrans alike number about 10 billion total .
Hell lets just say they number 6 billion about the number Earth has today how come a few hundred thousand dead are such a huge blow?? Hell more soldiers were killed in WW2 .
Considering all this plus the tech. advancement the GTVA should be able to replenish its ranks of pilots and crewmen in what 2 or 3 months top? And that is assuming they had incredibly limited reserve troops. Like enough to crew maybe 10 percent of the original fleet. And that is just stooooopid.
Replenishing GTVA military personnel would take at least 6 months. Even then, those would be rushed out and lack the real training and experience of a full crew. I'm quite sure a number of the GTVA Admirals and Captains are veterans of the Great War. Bosch was a veteran and this is on pure speculation, but I think Petrarch was one as well. The NTF Rebellion also weaken the GTVA. While it was helpful that it produced skilled pilots and crewmen, it also meant the lost of several colonies whose industrial capabilities were probably brought to a halt during the conflict.
Skilled personnels are very valuable. Losing them would be the last thing you want in times of war.
I am fully aware that the GTVA did not fall to the level of despair during the Great War. They still had a healthy supply of able citizens who could be enlisted. During the Great War, the GTA/PVN were probably burning off almost an entire generation.
The GTVA is probably alot less powerful than the GTA/PVN during the Great War. Remember that the GTA and PVN fought for over a decade and still managed to fend off the Shivans. With at least 80% of the GTVA industrial capacity and infrastructure was wiped out, it's a safe bet that they wouldn't be back to their former self any time soon. Remember, this isn't WW2. There is no US to give out loans to war torn nations. They're starting over from scratch with no aid what so ever.
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Agreed but if they could find the way to explore and colonize new sistems build new shypyards and new ships nd new weapons then they must not have been is such a bad shape after all. Granted even so the GTVA is but a shadow of the former GTA/PVN might we must not underestimate the resourcefullness of the GTVA. Also why do you asume it would take 6 months to replenish the crews?? I mean no decent army goes to war without having a reserve milatary force that has at least capable leaders if not equaly capable soldiers.
My guess is that the GTVA did indee loose an important number of front line pilots but then again im also sure they have reserve troopsto be deployed. Sure it will take them a while and they might not be as good/experienced as the first one initialy but they will learn. I mean the initial ones werent that good to begin with untill they got around to actualy fling under combat conditions and surviving for a mission or 2 .
And i say forced "comunity" labor and conscriting the way GTVA should move for the next few months or evn 1 or 2 years at max. Those that scream out for their civil rights...welll round them up and shoot them in public squares and send the bill to the families for the bullets and work time.
I mean theyr civilization they very existence as a species is at stake and they wine because they have to actualy work more for the food and shelter they get while young men and women die to keep them safe??? A hell no shoot them and get it done with. They can protest all they want when the threat of extinction has passed until then they should just keep theyr mouth shut and keep working .
I always said a bit of slave labour does wonders for the economy. (GTVA economy i mean sheesh what do yoyu think i am some sort of...freak?? ) .
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I mean it is a safe bet that each GTVA fleet had at LEAST 1 destroyer perhaps 2 .
Then again the NTF rebellion only had the resources of 3 fleets but had at least ten Orions.
Seems pretty obvious why the GTVA was struggling. Nuke all the first world countries overnight and see what happened to the economies of all the other nations over the next 32 years.
The Terran sector was struggling, but the Zods were doing pretty well for themselves. I assume most of their industrial capacity wasn't in their home system, but also they didn't have the political chaos the terrans had.
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Given how inhospitable Vasuda Prime is I wouldn't be surprised if the Vasudans weren't mainly based there.
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The GTVA is probably alot less powerful than the GTA/PVN during the Great War. Remember that the GTA and PVN fought for over a decade and still managed to fend off the Shivans. With at least 80% of the GTVA industrial capacity and infrastructure was wiped out, it's a safe bet that they wouldn't be back to their former self any time soon. Remember, this isn't WW2. There is no US to give out loans to war torn nations. They're starting over from scratch with no aid what so ever.
Well I'd say that there is a US... and a Russia, China, EU and Japan too.
All in the Sol System, based on Earth, the Moon, Mars, many asteroids, moons of other planets and many space stations, all colonized probably more than 100 years before subspace was discovered.
So there are superpowers, probably united (thanks to the Shivan threat), but they're off limits for the GTVA.
And since this is a topic about fleets:
IMHO the Sol fleet could be the most powerfull. The FS 1 Endgame cutscene shows that the whole front of the Lucy, although damaged, is near the Moon, waiting to be boarded and salvaged. Another thing is that after seeing the warp.pof cut the Lucy in half, scientists on Earth would spend as much or more time constructing a missile that will generate a warp.pof upon impact (to slice through the ship's outer layers like a BFRed) than reverse engineering the Lucifer's wreck.
The fleet at Sol could also use whole planetoids as resources for supership hulls (heck, they could make ultra slow but ultra armored asteroid bases with engines, armed with Shivan Flux Cannons, and warp.pof generating bomb launchers), more advanced fighters than most GTVA constructions, but probably less carrier style ships due to the abundance of space stations.
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If the GTVA tapped into half it's resources it could easily have a large fleet in a short amount of time... but you have to figure they're probably understaffed as it is.
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We don't have enough information to say that. We don't know the population size of the GTVA, how long it takes to build a ship (apart from the Colossus), how scarce the metals needed to build ships are, how expensive it is to get hold of them etc.
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We don't have enough information to say that. We don't know the population size of the GTVA, how long it takes to build a ship (apart from the Colossus), how scarce the metals needed to build ships are, how expensive it is to get hold of them etc.
Actually that's not quite true - look at the Solar system.
If we managed to catch 100 asteroids we'd have several hundred tons of metal, iron primarily just like that. And look how many asteroids there are in Sol, not to mention the other star systems terrestrial planets and moons. :p
Even gas planets can provide some things . . .
Appears that my basis for my claim was a little far to off.
OK, could people terraform "uninhabitable" planets? Don't know how it really works though . . .
How about moons and planets that seriously require help to survive from one main planet.
They could create heat generators . . . :confused:
Hey, we are talking about centuries of technology into the future. Speaking about lack of manpower, well, there's always cloning.
Maybe someone should hire the Kaminoans to clone some slaves for us . . . ;)
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They could create heat generators . . . :confused:
No need for that...
If it's too cold, add Chloro Fluoro Carbons (dump a load of used fridges on it) or other things the environmentalists are griping about. If it's got an atmosphere, CFCs would trap heat in and make it warmer. Once it's warm enough, adding water would be easy: completely melting the polar icecaps of the planet (assuming it has any) would get a good amount of water, or enough to make a little lake, at least. Then you could add some vegetation to create a breathable atmosphere.
If it's too warm, call environmentalists.
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It's safe to assume that years of training are required for even simple jobs in the Fleet.
There may be a bottleneck in training facilities or training officers.
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We know that a densely populated system has a few hundred million people... and we know there's a given number of systems in the GTVA. We can deduce that the military probably isn't the entire population. Ass
We can assume from the ease of space travel that it wouldn't take much effort for the GTVA to use space resources (gas giants, asteroids, ect). Since ships run of of deuterium getting fuel isn't a problem, and given the shear bulk of resources in space it's doubtful there's any lack for the GTVA.
Thus the GTVA has a huge bulk of industrial resources, and a small population; it's pretty obvious that they're going to have a lack human resources if they wanted to make a Huge Fleet of DoomTM simply because that is the only resource which isn't readily available.
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Well agreed . We do know that the GTVA has some problems regarding population but they are nowhere near as bad. And on one hand a solution to theyr problems was provided by the Capella destruction. I mean here you have a HUGE workforce which can be put to work in the newly discovered sistems developing them etc. And you can bet at least 10 or 20% of those ppl are suited for milatary duties. This would mean what several million young ppl fit for milatary duties. Now all the GTVA has to do is get its arse into gear and start full production of the new classes of Destroyers especialy the Vasudan Hatshepsut.
Hell with the succes the vasudan destroyer ha we might even see some sort of vaiant beeing done in a joint effort for the terrans . That is if the terrans dont do some sort of new class of destroyer to replace the Orion's.
Either way untill the GTVA has some sort of standardization implemented things are gonna go half speed . I mean what the GTVA needs is unified ship building tech.
That would increase the speed and quality at which ships are beeing built. Beam cannons would become more advanced since both species would be working toghether to get both damage and range and reire rates better. So intead of each race taking its own way in this we would have double the resources to achieve the same result. :D
Anyway i believe that for a while Deimos and Sobek construction is gooing to hit the roof since they are a lot cheaper faster to produce and require less crew to operate them. They are fast and cand handle fighter/bommber attack very well. This will be done for a short amount of time however since they will also have to build bigger ships . But just imagine every available shipyard equiped to build corvettes gooing full speed for half a year perhaps more. That is a lot of new corvettes. :D
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We know that a densely populated system has a few hundred million people.
Densely populated does not automatically imply that it's a HEAVILY populated place. A small crowded town is densely populated for instance.
As far as I'm concerned the population of GTVA system is a mystery, as it's impossible to extrapolate from just 1-2 numbers with any satisfactory accuracy.
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Densely populated does not automatically imply that it's a HEAVILY populated place. A small crowded town is densely populated for instance.
However unless it has a large number of such towns the country that town is in is NOT densely populated. And the briefing quite clearly states that it's the system that is densely populated not any particular planet.
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Personally I believe that most of the Humans population was in SOL. This is how I see it: The GTA started a 14 year war shortly after they found subspace. During this time they would focus mostly on Military technology and bases with less focus on moving large portions of their population to new worlds. I would say that the Population of all humans is 20 -30 billion tops. and I'd say at least half lived in the SOL system.
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Make it 3/4 of the population lived in Sol and you are credible. However one must not underestimate the human instinct of survival and procreation i mean for all we know each colonist that was trapped outside Sol could of had between 2 and 10 children depending on the number of wives . Who knows all we know is that capella a realatively new sistem became desly populated.
Also ppl must not forget that the majoraty of the refugees made it out of Capella in one piece. All you had left of the convoi were a few transports. You could not of had more then 200 k ppl in those transports so that means almost 250 million civilians just managed to escape death by a hear's breat.
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And weren't there in Capella only 1 or 2 fleets? The Terran one and the Vasudan one. I mean- only local ones, and that the GTVA didn't risk pulling out fleets from places like Ross128, Delta Serpentis, etc.
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However unless it has a large number of such towns the country that town is in is NOT densely populated. And the briefing quite clearly states that it's the system that is densely populated not any particular planet.
Maybe Capella III (or whichever planet it was) is a small planet and the only habitable one. That would make it densely populated (since habitable area is the only thing you look at).
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But it said the SYSTEM was densely populated NOT the PLANET
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I somewhat remember the mission(s) involved, and I certainly remember thinking how hard it was to keep ALL the transports alive.
You were only part of the escort. So what if a very very large number of freighters were destroyed en-route to the jump node, and only 250 million survived the slaughter?
I wouldn't put it past the Shivans to be able to pull something like that off.
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How can you discuss the density of the population? We know nothing about the total number of GTVA citizens and comments like "not densely populated" don't really tell us a lot.
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First of all the only horrific losses that were registered in Capella are the loss of so many warships. However even if the GTA lost a lot of warships the shivans must have lost even more not to mention at least 4 or 5 times the fighters.
Anyway there are poeple here that seem to believe that only a hand full of Capellan civilians were evacuated. WRONG!
May i remind everyone that Capella was beeing evacuated since the first sighting of the Shivan jugg. And they did not stop the evacuation even after the first jugg was taken out. Now if a argo class transport has enough room to acomodate the crew of a destroyer which is about 10k then imagine a total number of just 50 Argo class transports making regular jump to evacuate everyone non stop for at least 2 or 3 days. you have 500 k ppl beeing evacuated in less then 1 hour asuming everithing was planned carefully.
Nevertheless even the debriefing states the majoraty of the population was already evacuated at the time the capella sun went nova and we can asume that the few hundreds of thousands that were still in sistem were a part of the total numbers of capellan lost due to shivan attack on the trasports or the nova.
Either way Capella was the base of the Terran 5'th Fleet . And if emory serves me right it was also the base of operations for the Aquitane. Also the Phoenicia if im not mistaken was also a part of Capella t'th fleet was it not??
Wow 2 Hecates in one fleet? And we can rest asured that they must of had at least 1 Orion there . This leads me to believe that the GTVA fleet was much larger then we give it credit.
Also this bring a disturbing question to mind if the GTVA fleet was this large and it was but a mere shadow of its former glory then how big was the PVN/GTA fleet originaly????
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Argo's can't carry ten thousand people. Heck by that logic the hermes (the pod with about 5 windows and a roof hatch) can carry two and a half thousand if 4.ish in total left every destroyer blowing up.
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But it said the SYSTEM was densely populated NOT the PLANET
If you only got a few small habitable places, the system is densely populated...only habitable ares are counted towards population density.
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Hey ! What are you discussing here- Capella's population or GTVA fleets? Cause the topic title says otherwise.
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:welcome:
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Well heres is my 2 cents regarding the strenght crew wise of the GTVA fleets. I mean there must have been at least 2 trained cews per ship. This would only be a logical choice since crews need R&R vacations etc. So my belief is that the GTVA actualy has all the crews it needs to man all the ships they need in order to replenish the losses and perhaps add some more warships. Now the only real problem i see here is in a year or 2 when those crews would be tired and sick of looking out of the window of a warship. However by that time the GTVA should of had time to train at least part of the replacement crews they need .
As for the actual number of pilots lost while there were quite a number of them lost the same thing can be said like it was for the crews of the warships. I mean you can have pilots that were not active in the milatary anymore recalled back into active duty at least for a while. Also you can pull out all the reserve orces you have left.
Also new pilots can be brough into service aboard destroyers from the various stations around GTVA. sure they wont be that much but they will be more then enough to give the GTVA time to replenish their ranks.
As for the NTF fleets well they had 3 fleets and more then 10 destroyers but they also had a masive amount of smaller warships when you look at it packed into just 3 sistems well 2 originaly.
And while i do not believe the GTVA to asign 5 destroyers per sistem at the very least 1 destroyer would be allowed. This would be depending on the various reasons they would have to asign more then just 1 destroyer.
to put it another way the war with the NTF and the shivans was a bloody one il give you that bu the amount of casualties suffered during the second shivan war are a laugh compared to the First great war.
from my POV the shivans barely managed to inflict a deep enough wound to make the GTVA feel the pain compared to the almost death blow that they dealt during the Lucifer massacre.
With this beeing said we must also remember that now the GTVA has new tech available to it . So in a sence we can expect the GTVA to become even more powerfull and there is not just a high degree of probabilaty but actualy a certainty that the GTVA will eventualy manage to develop beam cannons equal if not superior to those of the shivans. Hell basicly out tech the shivans sooner or later. It all depends on the amount of resources and men they asigns to the R&D departments of the GTVA .
To summarize the GTVA is now at about 70% cappacity a bit tired and lets face it a bit starving. Nothing a good rest and good meal wont fix coupled with some money spending.
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If you only got a few small habitable places, the system is densely populated...only habitable ares are counted towards population density.
No.
By your logic Alaska, Siberia and the Sahara are densely populated.
You were only part of the escort. So what if a very very large number of freighters were destroyed en-route to the jump node, and only 250 million survived the slaughter?
A small task force will oversee the demolition of the Knossos while the bulk of the allied fleet blockades the jump node leading to the densely-populated Capella system. Command has begun the process of evacuating the two hundred fifty million civilians inhabiting Capella, the largest exodus since the Great War.
As you can quite clearly see the comment was from the first Sathanas' entry to Capella not when the Shivans invaded with 80 juggernauts. So no slaughter of civilians is likely. The Shivan forces in Capella apart from the Sathanas itself at the time were light.
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Gotta remember that after the NTF made progress in the war the GTVA was considering having to make a comprimise, I believe that the GTVA fleet isn't massive otherwise they would of been able to instantly put down the NTF rebellion by sending 70% of their forces in there to just crush them. But when 10 Destroyers give the GTVA a run for their money then I would estimate there to probably be about 20-30 destroyers but with the frequency that they get destroyed there is probably more lol.
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I don't think the GTVA fleet is exceedingly large. I'd agree with The Spac, 20-30 destroyers is a reasonable amount.
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As for the retraining of crews and how many personnel the GTVA should be able to bring to the party, these people living on the planets which would most likely hold the largest amount of the populations would very unlikely have spent ANY time in space. Going to space still in that future time wouldn't of been something you could of done in a whim. So for learning how to fly in space with a fighter would also have required quite a bit of training.
I would say that half the fighter pilots would probably come from "Spacer" type colonies that delt more with being in space with the other half coming from planets with large populations just because of the amount of submissions.
I would say that the technical crews for the large ships would mostly have come from the planets as they don't need to learn how to fly but know things about navigation and engineering more of the educational side.
This also leads to the way how Bosch was able to turn Sirius and Regulas against the rest of the GTVA so easily. Most people 250 million per planet or planetside anyway all wouldn't be travelling between systems and planets that they would have even cared about their neighbours. I would like to suggest that maybe colonies in the GTVA are a bit more inverted where most people care about local issues and only care about broad issues when their own security comes to mind.
Bosch gave the lost generation something to fight for this could of just been a massive recruitment drive of alot of displaced and non achieving unemployed youths who had no direction. One way to fix the local issue of no unemployment and such being on a fringe system still probably doing it tough after loss of earth. With all these new recruits all focused on trying to make their own planets better, they would all be loyal and it would of fixed many of the local issues and given Regulas and Sirius their broader security.
Also I believe this is one reason why there are so many old fighters in the NTF, not because they could only make old ones but because with the massive influx of recruits they probably started shipping people out in anything they could retrofit and even tho the fighters are 32 years old they all still give the GTVA's more advanced fighters a run for their money. So IMO the NTF fleet didn't just consist of the two GTVA fleets that changed sides but the NTF probably had a huge influx of old fighters and craft making them a serious more threat then two simple fleets.
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Well my idea about the huge amounts of old fighters in the NTF is that they were stored as mothball squadrons, not protected well, and were shipped into Bosch controlled space using some clever smuggling techniques.
Another thought: you can't just steal a bunch of GTF Perseus's without their pilots noticing, so the NTF had to focus on older units sitting in cargo containers, far away from civilisation.
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I don't think the GTVA fleet is exceedingly large. I'd agree with The Spac, 20-30 destroyers is a reasonable amount.
Exactly, that seems the most correct estimation.
We can't really speculate about the number of spacecraft, however. I don't think all of the spacecraft in existance are housed in destroyers/installations as there's a canon source(I don't remember it exactly, I think it was the table entry of a Vasudan bomber) suggesting the presence of plenties of spacecraft.
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The NTF did not get just Orion class destroyers they also got Hecate's and Deimos as well as loeads of cruisers.
The NTF was able to hold back the GTVA and even push it back beucase it had more skilled commanders and they only had to blocade the nodes with 2 orions ans a couple of corettes to inflict massive casualties ot the GTVA. Remember the nodes are bottlenecks . Sure the GTVA could of swarmed the NTF sistems eventualy but with massive casualties.
The Colossus was the only ship that could take on a node blocade and win hands down.
GTVA total fleetsa arent that small they are about 30 destroyers per race there however even those are few when considering the number that was lons during the NTF war an the fact that they have to be scattered all across GTVA space.
However should they have lets say 100 destroers easy then 50 of them could be the permanent war fleet whil the others could be scattered across all the GTVA sistems.
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The NTF did not get just Orion class destroyers they also got Hecate's and Deimos as well as loeads of cruisers.
No, I don't think they had Hecates. Or it is possible, but there's no proof backing up the assumption. We've seen the NTF in possession of Orions, Deimoses and cruisers, but never Hecates.
But again it is wise to be careful with the ships numbers, unless one wishes to mark the GTVA as a cold, efficient military dictatorship.
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No, I don't think they had Hecates. Or it is possible, but there's no proof backing up the assumption. We've seen the NTF in possession of Orions, Deimoses and cruisers, but never Hecates.
They do, in a multiplayer mission (which should be considered canon IMO). It was called the NTD Corsica.
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Ah, my bad, then. Multiplayer is still on the To-Do list.
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But again it is wise to be careful with the ships numbers, unless one wishes to mark the GTVA as a cold, efficient military dictatorship.
Well the USA spends more cash on the military than ....
(http://www.globalissues.org/i/military/country-distribution-2006.png)
...almost everybody else combined
And it's not a "cold, efficient military dictatorship."
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Have you seen the ship scale thread? If we take into concideration that thread and the fact that we're talking about space ships, fusion drives, weird laser weapons and such, I find it logical to assume that building a massive space-faring war fleet eats up way more resources than building planes that can shoot missiles at civilian targets. And assault rifles.
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Well there was this one thread that asmbled all the ships in game inclueding the ones the NTF had and there you could see a couple of Hecates ! some of them are from debriefings other form some other sources.
The NTF had to hold just 3 Nodes with the equivalent might of almost 6 or 7 fleets. And they could call upon fighter/bommber reinforcements from the bases in the sistem.
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Have you seen the ship scale thread? If we take into concideration that thread and the fact that we're talking about space ships, fusion drives, weird laser weapons and such, I find it logical to assume that building a massive space-faring war fleet eats up way more resources than building planes that can shoot missiles at civilian targets. And assault rifles.
On the flipside however it is wise to assume that the GTVA has proportionally more resources at its disposal, considering it has many SOLAR SYSTEMS to strip mine, instead of one continent on one (small) planet.
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Also it is important to note they have HUGE spaceShypyards capable of building 6 km long warships or several smaller warships at once . :P
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Well there was this one thread that asmbled all the ships in game inclueding the ones the NTF had and there you could see a couple of Hecates !
And that thread is canon how? There is only one NTF Hecate canonically, though any of the other ones mentioned in debriefings could be Hecates, though it is unlikely.
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Never said its canon i said that that list was made using canon information. :P
Also im still looking for at least a semi-realistic guess to how big the GTA/PVN fleets were during and after the 14year/First shivan war.
I mean if we have today that many Orions and the bulk of the GTA fleets were indeed already in Sol in an attempt to stop the Lucifer then how many Orions wwere based in Sol? Dozens??
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I reckon that maybe at that point in time only one, optimistically three could have made it to Sol before the lucider. I'm assuming that as it was the industrial and economic hub for the gta there would have been one or two ships of at least cruiser class under construction too. Which system is the fred tutorial mission set in? Orions are built in pairs it seems :lol:
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what do you mean they are build in pairs???
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[...] One way to fix the local issue of no unemployment and such being on a fringe system still probably doing it tough after loss of earth. With all these new recruits all focused on trying to make their own planets better, they would all be loyal and it would of fixed many of the local issues and given Regulas and Sirius their broader security. [...]
I think it were more old 70 year racists brabbling about WW2, Vietnam, the Cold War and how every non-USA country is ****.
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That has been discussed before. There's one NTF Hecate to fight simply because it was a new experience for the player, who has never attacked a Hecate.
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That has been discussed before. There's one NTF Hecate to fight simply because it was a new experience for the player, who has never attacked a Hecate.
Does it mean that it doesn't exist? :rolleyes:
It was a gameplay decision, but it in universe, the Corsica still exists no matter what you say.
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Have you seen the ship scale thread? If we take into concideration that thread and the fact that we're talking about space ships, fusion drives, weird laser weapons and such, I find it logical to assume that building a massive space-faring war fleet eats up way more resources than building planes that can shoot missiles at civilian targets. And assault rifles.
With tech advancement and more ppl, it would be safe to assume that a bulding a warship in FS era takes roughly the same ammount of time and resources (comparative to the size/economoy) as it takes to build todays warships.
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Doesn't it say somewhere that an Orion takes 3 years to manufacture?
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No there was something about how the cost of an Orion is the same cost ot pay it's crew for 3 years.
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No there was something about how the cost of an Orion exceeds the cost to pay it's crew for 3 years.
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the cost to build one of these far outweighs the cost of paying the crew of this ship for 3 years.
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No there was something about how the cost of an Orion is the same cost ot pay it's crew for 3 years.
No there was something about how the cost of an Orion exceeds the cost to pay it's crew for 3 years.
Are you two like, the same person but in different bodies or something? Grammar! (fragment consider revising)
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Alpha 1 never recieved a pay check in my experience. The tech room lies! :lol:
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No there was something about how the cost of an Orion is the same cost ot pay it's crew for 3 years.
No there was something about how the cost of an Orion exceeds the cost to pay it's crew for 3 years.
Are you two like, the same person but in different bodies or something? Grammar! (fragment consider revising)
No not the same person I just have terrible grammer and it looks like someone wanted to correct it. :-D
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Well the Vasudans have at least 5 or 6 Hatties under their belt during the FS2 original campaign takes place. However if we were to be more realistic and use common sense we can safely asume they have at least 10 or 12 Hatties built by now with the hand full of Typhon's left after retrofitting thay would put the Vasudan count of large cap ships a bit lower then the Terrans but even so a significat force altough im asuming the Terrans have at least 6 or more destroyers above the Vasudans.
Considering the number of sistems controled by the Vasudans or for that matter the number of vasudan shypyards we can conclude that the average building time of a destroyer to be about 1 year give or take a few months (2 or 3) .
This would be limited by the amount of res. available for the build and numeorus other factors. for example during wartime we can conclude that a ship can be built at least 2 times faster then during peace time etc.