Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Clawandfang on March 20, 2008, 01:04:09 pm
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Has any noticed how whenever the Terrans and Vasudans team up to make something, the end product is always classed as Terran. The Vasudans came up with the idea for the Colossus, but who gets it? Terrans.
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Because we terrans are supplying them with Headz. Or it could be that you Terrans are so selfish. :P
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Actually yes. There has been discussion. Khonsu II says "Oh, oh! Let's make a really big ship and name it 'Colossus'". Then they build a really big ship and name it 'Colossus'. It looks Terran. It has Terran weaponry. The CO is a Terran. What else? As Ozzy would put it: "Life sucks and then you ****in' die, you know!".
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That's normal, alien species usually get neglected. Joint endeavours are, in fact, considered "Terran".
Many Terran craft don't have a Vasudan counterpart, for example.
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Has any noticed how whenever the Terrans and Vasudans team up to make something, the end product is always classed as Terran. The Vasudans came up with the idea for the Colossus, but who gets it? Terrans.
It looks Terran, has Terran weaponry and the CO is Terran. To me, it may not be that life sucks and then you die, but it's just that the Terrans did more work on it than the Vasudans.
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To me, it may not be that life sucks and then you die, but it's just that the Terrans did more work on it than the Vasudans.
What about the non-canon Vasudan slave labor force that had to actually construct the Collie while the designing department sat on their arses, drinking coffee and complaining how dumb and incompetent the labor force was.
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What about... :v: simply wanted to make it look Terran? I don't think the Vasudans are less-capable of accomplishing something notable than Terrans. Deimos' engines are the result of Vasudan engineering, for example.
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What about the non-canon Vasudan slave labor force that had to actually construct the Collie while the designing department sat on their arses, drinking coffee and complaining how dumb and incompetent the labor force was.
That doesn't make any sense.
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What about the non-canon Vasudan slave labor force that had to actually construct the Collie while the designing department sat on their arses, drinking coffee and complaining how dumb and incompetent the labor force was.
That doesn't make any sense.
Tell me. In this sick, twisted, ****ed up world of ours, what does make sense?
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What about the non-canon Vasudan slave labor force that had to actually construct the Collie while the designing department sat on their arses, drinking coffee and complaining how dumb and incompetent the labor force was.
That doesn't make any sense.
Obvious...Lobo wrote it :doubt:
Tell me. In this sick, twisted, ****ed up world of ours, what does make sense?
Eh? :ick:
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What about the non-canon Vasudan slave labor force that had to actually construct the Collie while the designing department sat on their arses, drinking coffee and complaining how dumb and incompetent the labor force was.
That doesn't make any sense.
Obvious...Lobo wrote it
Seriously, have I ever mentioned that, to me, Latin makes no sense?
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I wonder if you're going to keep posting bulls**t about me and turn every single thread into a "look, look at that strange boy who posts in lightblue and counts his kills(:wtf:)"
Even your signature has a line for me!
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Actually, no. This time we derailed because some people have no sense of humour, apparently. And on most other occasions, it is due to the fact that someone decides to Latinize his posts/topic names, which is not very polite to the majority(?) of people, who don't yet speak fluent Latin.
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Then you must be blind, I stopped giving Latin names to threads a while ago :doubt:
That wasn't a valid reason to start spamming, anyway! One of my threads for the FS Wiki got fu***d because of you and other spammers!
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/me gives every one a calming dose of shut the **** up
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/me agrees
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Tell me. In this sick, twisted, ****ed up world of ours, what does make sense?
Something that I don't misread. Sorry. :nervous:
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I hate those zods. We should just kill them all and take all of their stuff.
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Fortunately there are no Vasudans in your 158th campaigns :P
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Fortunately there are no Vasudans in your 158th campaigns :P
I am going to make a mission where you have to destroy a cargo ship full of zod women and children, because otherwise they will live full and happy lives.
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Fortunately there are no Vasudans in your 158th campaigns :P
There are.
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Wasn't the Colossus classified as GTVA Colossus? So it bares both the Vasudan and Terran names. Additionally, the Colossus had about 30,000 crewmen. I'm sure there's a Terran communication officer so the "CO" wasn't the actual CO, but the communication officer. Though I'm not sure why it has only Terran beams, perhaps the Terran beams are superior overall? So you combine superior Vasudan reactors and superior Terran beams.
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But it still was a ****ing green flying brick. You'd think they had applied at least some Vasudan aesthetics to the design. But no. As far as anything that was actually shown is concidered, the only Vasudan thing in the Collie is the V in GTVA.
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So, GTVA is Galatic Terran-Vasudan Alliance. So the Colossus's full name is Galatic Terran-Vasudan Alliance Collossus. Shouldn't it be the GTVD Collossus or the GTVJ Collossus?
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Since it is the biased culmination of the Terran-Vasudan Alliance, it is GTVA, even if it sounds a bit odd.
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But it still was a ****ing green flying brick. You'd think they had applied at least some Vasudan aesthetics to the design. But no. As far as anything that was actually shown is concidered, the only Vasudan thing in the Collie is the V in GTVA.
Maybe someone just did a bad job designing it. I know from experience that when you are trying to design a hybrid ship, its a little to easy to shift too far to one side (and terran ships do seem to be easier to design). You would think that someone else working on FS2 would have noticed this though...
Actually if you look at the concept art for the Colossus it does look a little more Vasudan. So maybe it was just some bad decisions by a couple of people. Apart from its looks and weaponry, there is no canon evidence to suggest that one species contributed more than the other ... well, except the fact that all of the freighters in the cutscene were terran.
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Since it is the biased culmination of the Terran-Vasudan Alliance, it is GTVA, even if it sounds a bit odd.
GTVD or GDVJ still mentions the Terrans and the Vasudans. The GTF Apollo doesn't mention the alliance of Terrans, why should the Colossus have to mention the Terrran-Vasudan alliance?
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GTVD or GDVJ still mentions the Terrans and the Vasudans. The GTF Apollo doesn't mention the alliance of Terrans, why should the Colossus have to mention the Terrran-Vasudan alliance?
Since it is the biased culmination of the Terran-Vasudan Alliance, it is GTVA, even if it sounds a bit odd.
And the Apollo is an old skool Terran fighter, so there's no need to mention neither the Vasudans nor the Alliance with it.
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Same reason the Knossos is classified as Terran. The guys at :v: are speciesist. :D
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What I was trying to say was that if the name credits the Vasudans and the Terrans, why does the Alliance need to be mentioned. No other alliance is mentioned on the name of any other craft.
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Since it is the biased culmination of the Terran-Vasudan Alliance, it is GTVA, even if it sounds a bit odd.
It was the ****ing culmination of the alliance and cooperation between the two species. The two species that managed to fight back a race that had annihilated possibly countless species for millennia. The Colossus was a symbol for that alliance. A culmination, a peak point. An orgasm, if you will. That is why the designation says GTVA. No other craft has had that symbolic value. Sure, there was the Ulysses, but it was merely a new design, that had aspects from both races. It wasn't meant to be The ShipTM that will ensure the survival of both species or something. The Colossus was. It was designed to thwart any Shivan threat that might arise. It was a joint endeavour between the Terrans and Vasudans. It strengthened the bond between the two species. It was, metaphorically speaking, the alliance.
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It was the ****ing culmination of the alliance and cooperation between the two species. The two species that managed to fight back a race that had annihilated possibly countless species for millennia. The Colossus was a symbol for that alliance. A culmination, a peak point. An orgasm, if you will. That is why the designation says GTVA. No other craft has had that symbolic value. Sure, there was the Ulysses, but it was merely a new design, that had aspects from both races. It wasn't meant to be The ShipTM that will ensure the survival of both species or something. The Colossus was. It was designed to thwart any Shivan threat that might arise. It was a joint endeavour between the Terrans and Vasudans. It strengthened the bond between the two species. It was, metaphorically speaking, the alliance.
Yeah I agree. What Lobo said.
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The Colossus class Alliance is the most powerful spacefaring warship ever built...
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Whilst we talk about the Ulyesses, why not mention the Interceptor? That after all was the first joint endevour with a Terran warhead and Vasudan engine. Whislt Khonsu II designed the Collosus, it does seem as though the Terrans were the major developers with both Subach Innes and Triton being involved. No doubt RNI and HRC were also participants in the construction.
However, seeing as it was a JOINT endevour, I cannot see either party being happy with it being crewed by a majority of one race, so there is the possibility that although the Commanding Officer is a Terran, he probably has Vasudan officers below him.
As for only carrying Terran fighters, it may be that for a Terran led mission, the Collosus will launch Terran fighters so that the fighters currently engaged are familiar with the pilots and craft. The same could apply for Vasudan missions.
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Practically speaking given the limitations of the FreeSpace engine...which would have worked out better. A curvaceous Vasudan ship like the Typhon or Hatshepsut or a flying brick like the Orion? I think the flying brick design prevailed for best gameplay speed. The size of the Colossus in the game engine was enough to cause a few issues back when the game originally came out...some cards had trouble displaying the whole ship at the same time without dropping a few frames.
As for the canon...Colossus was a joint project. If you look at the company lists in the cutscene the ship was built by dozens of contractors from both Terran and Vasudan sources. Just because the external design is Terran doesn't mean that some of the innards are Vasudan. Even the Deimos tech description mentions a Vasudan based power core. Lots of technology sharing going on.
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The Colossus is a box with vasudan designs inside and so is the Demios, come to think of it the Vasudans just want a monopoly on sweet sexy looking ships in an attempt to make their race more popular with the HLP community. Just look at the number of Terran to Vasudan campaigns and you'd see that the ZODS have cause to complain about the racism by our community.
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I give up, you win. I'm understand, although I'm still not entirely happy about it.
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I give up, you win. I'm understand, although I'm still not entirely happy about it.
- "Victory is mine!"
- "Ours!"
- "No, Bob."
- "Wanker...
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Vasudans have less system as far as I know, so that means less ships are needed to be built. So that means they can be better ( and so they are better ). Vasudans depend mostly on Terran technologies ( using their missiles and weapons, with the exception of them mekhu, which is upgraded to work better on vasudan reactors ) . Only reasons for their ships to be more effective/stronger, is because they need LESS of the ships, and depend originaly on terran weapons ( except for beam cannons and the mekhu-hl7, thanks to vasudan reactors ). Terrans have more ships and pilots, their beam cannons are slightly more powerfull, ship hulls are weaker, because of they need to defend more systems. Though things like the Colossus, Meson bomb and, if I'm not mistaking, Helios torpedo are joint creations, every other weapon is made by terrans.
So in short: Vasudan ships are stronger thanks to the fact that they need less of them, and they use terran weapons. Terrans do most of the research though.
And the Colossus- mostly built by terrans ( Ganymede rings, terran freighters and drones ). Probably only funded by Vasudans and their reactors used.
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I had a thought on this. Vasuda Prime wasn't a great place even before the Lucy arrived, so in order to survive the Vasudans probably had a history of working together. Terrans however have had a great planet, so they can aforrd to disagree more. More disagreements means more wars, and there's nothing quite like a good war to speed up technological advances. I think this may be reason for superiour Terran technology.
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I think this may be reason for superiour Terran technology.
Not all Terran technology is superior. The Vasudans make better reactors and have faster ships, though the Terrans have more dangerous stuff.
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Simply because of the reasons I posted before...
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Actualy Vasudan reactors engines and to some degree the beams are considered to be superior to Terran ones.
The fact that one of the fastest and most powerfull ships and succesfull ships in game has at least in opart vasudan tech in it should tell something. Im talking about the Deimos of course. All that weapory on it was posible beause of th extra power that comes out of the reactors of the bloodi thing . Why? Beucase they are vasudan reactors and engines.
Also the Ganymed is not a terran instalation but a GTVA instalation.
Also Vasudans have fewet large cap ships because they actualy had to retire most of the old Typhon class destroyers. There are only a hand full of ships in existence today.
Again they started from 0 and went up.
On the other hand they have loads of cervoettes that they use even more often then cruisers lol.
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Also Vasudans have fewet large cap ships because they actualy had to retire most of the old Typhon class destroyers. There are only a hand full of ships in existence today.
Again they started from 0 and went up.
On the other hand they have loads of cervoettes that they use even more often then cruisers lol.
That's all speculation. None of that is canon except the retirement of Typhon destroyers. Keep in mind the Vasudans may have had a few ships larger than the Hatshepsut but they never appeared because the fights of FS2 never occurred in core Vasudan space.
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We do have canon evidence about the DEimos's reactors and power sistems. And we do have canon evidence that Vasudan beams fire faster then terran ones. Altough they do just bit less damage per shot they actualy do more damage in time due to their faster refire rate.
Also The building of Sobeks was started shortly after the end of the First Great war . The vasudans did that in order to build a ships acpable of dealing with enemy cruisers. While the Deimos is a much more recent design. So the Sobek ahs at the least 10 years ahead of the Deimos. So it would seem only natural they would have loads more. Remember the corvette classes were designed to replace the cruiser classes .
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There's no proof that
Actualy Vasudan reactors engines and to some degree the beams are considered to be superior to Terran ones.
Because much of beams effectiveness seems driven by power, as seen in High Noon. The Deimos's beams for instance are technically inferior to the Sobek's, but it carries twice as many; suggesting that the Terrans traded off concentrated firepower in favor of well-distributed firepower.
The fact that one of the fastest and most powerfull ships and succesfull ships in game has at least in opart vasudan tech in it should tell something. Im talking about the Deimos of course. All that weapory on it was posible beause of th extra power that comes out of the reactors of the bloodi thing . Why? Beucase they are vasudan reactors and engines.
All that is said is that the Deimos uses an ultra efficient Vasudan reactor. It's efficiency and the fact that it's Vasudan may or may not have anything to do with each other. The efficiency may be do to Deimos class corvettes state of being "the newest addition to the Terran fleet."
Also the Ganymed is not a terran instalation but a GTVA instalation.
How is this realevent? I couldn't find a mention of the Ganymede anywhere else in this topic.
Also Vasudans have fewet large cap ships because they actualy had to retire most of the old Typhon class destroyers. There are only a hand full of ships in existence today.
Although you could be right, the little canon evidence out there suggests the opposite, that the Vasudans have a larger more established fleet, having a larger economy just after the Great War. They did in fact construct the Sobek immediately after the Great War. The Hatshepsut began manufacturing five years prior to Freespace 2, it's true that the given timespan is very short, but we know nothing of how long it takes to manufacture one, nor do we know how many production facilities the Vasudans have. Combined with the fact that we don't really know how many Typhons remained in service, it's clear that there is no evidence to say the " Vasudans have fewet large cap ships"
Again they started from 0 and went up.
A handful is certainly not 0
On the other hand they have loads of cervoettes that they use even more often then cruisers lol.
Apparently they have enough corvettes to deploy a Sobek with every fighter squadron, with no repeats, for about 9 missions. They have been producing them since just after the Great War
Sobek's being ten years ahead of Deimos's could well be a sign of the economic situation after the Great War, and nothing directly about the technological situation.
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Sorry for the bad spelling but im sick as a dog and this kind of bad spelling is bad even for me! I can barely see what i tipe. Sorry again.
also in the Tech Room at the description of the Deimos it says that is vasudan reactors produce more power then any ships reactors in existence. Also it is said that because of the extra power the Deimos is actualy able to achievi really high top speeds and is able to mount very powerfull weaponry .
So the 4 shlasher beams and the large number of other weapons on it are posible thanx to the huge amount of power its reactors produce.
The thing about the Typhon is pretty clear since it is said very clear that only a hand full exist to this day and most of them are asigned to patrol duties. With the prospect of them beeing completely replaced as the newer much more modern Hatshepsut class enters service . This sugests to me that the Vasudans have a shortage of large fleet warships (destroyers in this case) . However they are able to supliment this with the high numbers of Sobeks in existence.
The terrans on the other hand have even today enough Orion destroyers. This coupled with the new Hecates means that the Terans could in theory outnumber in terms of large warships the Vasudans .
However while it is up for speculation i would imagine the terrans actualy have very few Deimos class corvettes compared to the vasudans Sobek .
Why do i believe this? Simply because the Deimos and the Sobeks are suposed to replace the cruiser classes and while this is true to some extent for the vasudans it is not so true for the terrans which continue to use cruisers in much greater numbers then corvettes.
So my belief is that at some point in time at least the old Leviathan and Fenris will disapear beeing completely replaced by the Deimos. As for the Vasudans they will just keep building Hatties to catch up to the terrans .
Howver there is one thing i do not understand or rather it is unclear . Did the GTVA actualy continue to build Orions after the colapse of the Sol node or are all those Orions just remnants of the ships left outside of Sol.
cuz if that is the case then the whole GTA fleet as a whole must have been HUGE! Much more then the current GTVA fleet.
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also in the Tech Room at the description of the Deimos it says that is vasudan reactors produce more power then any ships reactors in existence. Also it is said that because of the extra power the Deimos is actualy able to achievi really high top speeds and is able to mount very powerfull weaponry .
No, it says "their Vasudan-designed reactor core provides more energy per ton than any other allied ship class"
The Deimos reactor puts out more energy per ton than ANY other allied ship class, Terran or Vasudan. It MIGHT be because it's Vasudan, but it might not be. It could just as easily be because the Deimos is the newest ship in the GTVA fleet.
So the 4 shlasher beams and the large number of other weapons on it are posible thanx to the huge amount of power its reactors produce.
Agreed, but since your premise that it has this much power becuase the reactor is Vasudan is flawed.
The thing about the Typhon is pretty clear since it is said very clear that only a hand full exist to this day and most of them are asigned to patrol duties. With the prospect of them beeing completely replaced as the newer much more modern Hatshepsut class enters service . This sugests to me that the Vasudans have a shortage of large fleet warships (destroyers in this case) . However they are able to supliment this with the high numbers of Sobeks in existence.
A handful is a realitive quantity, it could range from three to a hundred for all we know.
My point still stands that we don't know how quickly the Hatshepsut can be produced, and the Vasudans may have filled out their fleet entirely in five years.
We don't even know if the Typhon and Hatshepsut are the only Vasudan destroyers in service, there could well be more.
The terrans on the other hand have even today enough Orion destroyers. This coupled with the new Hecates means that the Terans could in theory outnumber in terms of large warships the Vasudans .
It obviously takes resources to keep destroyers active. Since the canon sources say that the Hecate is replacing the Orion, we can assume that for every Hecate produced, an Orion is decommissioned, much the same way the USN replaces it's ships. Therefore although we can assume the Terrans are at their target number of destroyers, there's no evidence to say that the Vasudans aren't at their target number of destroyers.
However while it is up for speculation i would imagine the terrans actualy have very few Deimos class corvettes compared to the vasudans Sobek .
Why do i believe this? Simply because the Deimos and the Sobeks are suposed to replace the cruiser classes and while this is true to some extent for the vasudans it is not so true for the terrans which continue to use cruisers in much greater numbers then corvettes.
So my belief is that at some point in time at least the old Leviathan and Fenris will disapear beeing completely replaced by the Deimos. As for the Vasudans they will just keep building Hatties to catch up to the terrans .
This may well be, there is little evidence for it but there is some. When the Actium and Lysander enter the nebula, the player is led to believe I think, that they are the only Deimos class there, and that the Deimos class are regarded as a huge asset. As you pointed out the Terrans seem to use a lot of cruisers, but a lot of Terran ships the player sees are NTF, and therefore they might not have access to many Deimos's.
Howver there is one thing i do not understand or rather it is unclear . Did the GTVA actualy continue to build Orions after the colapse of the Sol node or are all those Orions just remnants of the ships left outside of Sol.
cuz if that is the case then the whole GTA fleet as a whole must have been HUGE! Much more then the current GTVA fleet.
There's nothing that says if Orion production was continued or not
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Mars about the whole reactor thingy come on dude what part of "its vasudan designed reactors" impleis to you that they might actualy be terran in design and not vasudan??
also the Hattie is a very new design barely 5 years old and we dont see them sayng its reactors produce this much power per ton. Why? Well perhaps it has something to do with the numbers of reactors that were fitted to the Deimos compared to those on a Hattie for example.
Also I agree with the lack of info regarding the continuation or not of the Orion class destroyers. However i believe that a clue could be handed to us from the fact that is says that ALL current Orion class destroyers have been retrofited with beam cannon weaponry. So i dont know what to believe.
If the Orion would of been produced after the Sol node colapsed then how many and to what degree since it is pretty obvious that at the time they stopped construction of the Orions beam cannon weaponry was not available. If they were available they were not implemented into the overall structure of the Orion but rather added on .
Also the phrase handfull coul mean they have pretty low numbers of them much more fewer numbers then the Hatties i would presume. Since the Hattie was refered to as "a few of them have already been built at some point. Or am i just confusing ship tech descriptions??
anyway the fact that MOST Typhons were either destroyed or retired could mean that as many as 90% of them could be decomishioned or destroyed.
As for the Sobek yes i agree it was in production for much more many years then the Deimos thus we see more of them. Howver such shiops would best be used in pack's and not as sigle warships. since they are designed in an offensive nature can anyone say "wolf pack's" ? ;))
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Mars about the whole reactor thingy come on dude what part of "its vasudan designed reactors" impleis to you that they might actualy be terran in design and not vasudan??
That is not what I said
I said that it was a good reactor
I said it was Vasudan
I said those two things aren't proven to be related.
Understand?
also the Hattie is a very new design barely 5 years old and we dont see them sayng its reactors produce this much power per ton. Why? Well perhaps it has something to do with the numbers of reactors that were fitted to the Deimos compared to those on a Hattie for example.
Proving my point about the Vasudan reactors not automatically being superior.
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Well what i wanted to say was that given the same amount of reactors but of terran origin could not produce the same amount of power ! And the fact that the same is not said about other warships must have something to do PERHAPS with the number of reactors used in each ship. Basicly 4 terran reactors would not produce the same amount of power as 4 vasudan reactors.
Also there is a strong implication from the tech room description that the reactors used on the Deimos are not necesaryli the same ones used on other warships. Perhaps they are newer in design and tech. But the fact that the terrans opted for vasudan reactors as oposed to terran ones does seem to imply that either they are more advanced of they produce the same amount of power etc. as terran counterparts but they might be smaller or cheaper or more eficinet in terms of fuel consumption.
Either way from what we gather from the tech room it is pretty clear that the Vasudans are slightly more skilled at building reactors and powergrids then terrans . Im sayng this asuming that terran equivalents might prove more expensive or more laborious to install who knows.
The tech superiority of the vasudans in terms of this area must not be looked upon as simply raw power given off by theyr reactors. There are many factors that can be taken into acount which could prove to be somewhat superior to the methods and skills of building said reactors by the terrans .
Also as far as joint projects go what of the Mjolnir cannons is it a joint terran-vasudan endeavour ??
What of the RBC platforms?
As far as other ships go i do believe there were someb bommbers and fighters that were a joint endeavour even if they were terran designated. I believe there is said at some point that some fighter uses vasudan reactor sistems to provide increased power to its gun's !
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The reason the Orions were retrofitted is because after they made the Hecate they went oh crap and realised their old ships were better and retro fitted them :-D
And probably one reason the Vasudan like to use Corvettes so much is because of the massive failer of the ATEN. After having to use that in their military campaigns as a Vasudan General I would be very putt off them and cruisers in general.
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The reason the Orions were retrofitted is because after they made the Hecate they went oh crap and realised their old ships were better and retro fitted them :-D
That doesn't make sense in the Universe, where the Hecate is far better than the Orion under all points of view.
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I know that reason was a joke. :)
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Well, many members don't know the truth(I thought you were one of them :nervous:)
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That doesn't make sense in the Universe, where the Hecate is far better than the Orion under all points of view.
That sounds nice, but it's not canonical. It's nowhere said the Hecates are regarded as vastly superior. Hell, it's nowhere said that the Orions have gone out of production yet for that matter. We assume so, but as a practical matter for all we can actually prove the GTVA is still building them.
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I dunno why people are comparing ships and saying this is better, or that's better. The Vasudan and Terran ships simply have different styles. As for the backstory and fluff. . .meh whatever. It's all pretty much meaningless. Shivans have strong shields and crap armour so AAAf can eat them to bits while they'll still put up a fight for Alpha 1. Terrans tend to have decent hull and decent shields, whereas Vasudans tend to have less shields and less hull but better manoeuvrability than the Terrans (that's the impression I get anyway). I don't think the Vasudans have stronger ships because they have less of them, they just have stronger ships because they like them that way. The Aten is tougher than the Fenris but weaker than a Levy but they only have the Aten so it's a middle road sorta cruiser for instance.
As for the Colossus, well design stylings aside. It had a human CO for one reason, to better create empathy. I don't think the sense of urgency would really translate via the typical vasudan sorta voice wav. But some human dork saying "reactors at critical! Tertiaries failing, we're giving it all we got captain" or whatever sounds more exciting.
No one seems to much care for the design of the Colossus (though I don't particularly mind it), so all the vasudan fans should be happy they have less association with that ugly hunk of junk. I've always preferred the Vasudan designs myself, which is partly why my campaign is sorta vasudan-centric. Can't get any sexier than a Sobek or Hatshepsut
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As a reference point the Collie deafeated the NTF pretty much on its own. The collie succeded at all its missions to which it was designed to handle meaning defeating large number of capships +fighters and bommbers smash through blocades and hold the line in case of need.
As for the Hecate whyle i do like the Hecate and its design the Hecate doesnt hold a candle to the Orion's beam cannons. And while fighter/bommber projections is important all to often some ship manages to get past the fighter bommber screen and tear Hecates to pieces.
This brings up my next question and that is what will be the next major terran-vasudan project ?
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I had a thought on this. Vasuda Prime wasn't a great place even before the Lucy arrived, so in order to survive the Vasudans probably had a history of working together. Terrans however have had a great planet, so they can aforrd to disagree more. More disagreements means more wars, and there's nothing quite like a good war to speed up technological advances. I think this may be reason for superiour Terran technology.
Entirely the wrong way around. Limited resources (metal ore, fresh water, whatever) mean fiercer competition for resources, and thus more wars.
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As a reference point the Collie deafeated the NTF pretty much on its own. The collie succeded at all its missions to which it was designed to handle meaning defeating large number of capships +fighters and bommbers smash through blocades and hold the line in case of need.
Hmm. The Colossus surely scored some victories, but one shouldn't emphasise its part too much. The 64th Raptors, for example, took out numerous NTF capital ships and also did their part in trying to hold the Knossos against Bosch's evil schemes. And the original purpose of the Colossus was to stop the Shivans, should they return. Sure, in the Colossus cutscene it was stated that it will end all the conflicts swiftly and decisively, and it did, for the most part. But it didn't succeed fully, largely due to the GTVA's (understandable) inability to predict the existence of a Shivan juggernaut fleet.
This brings up my next question and that is what will be the next major terran-vasudan project ?
Probably reconstruction. And trying to find a place where they can stuff the Capella refugees.
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This brings up my next question and that is what will be the next major terran-vasudan project ?
We honestly have no clue.
Well, we do, but it's most likely a long term goal of the Alliance: the construction of a Knossos subspace portal to Sol. (Taken from the last cinematic of FS2)
But hey, theories abound.
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it's most likely a long term goal of the Alliance: the construction of a Knossos subspace portal to Sol. (Taken from the last cinematic of FS2)
Ah, indeed. That too.
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the next T-V project is another war.
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the next T-V project is another war.
That really isn't quite as stupid an idea as I first though when I read that. After all, I can't imagine relations blossoming when/if the Terran-Vasudan Knossos portal means that the Terrans regain their homeworld, whilst the Vasudans are still homeless.
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Well it's pretty obvious from the game relations aren't exactly stable
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Also who said that the Vasudans are homeless??? They have theyr heavely colonized sistems. In fact they bounced back a lot faster then the Terrans.
And yeah Knossos does indeed seem like the next major project. But i was talking something a bit smaller like a new ship design for both species you know same design for both terrans and vasudan. :D Unified sistems and standardization means cheaper ships with increased tech and stuff on them.
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Also who said that the Vasudans are homeless??? They have theyr heavely colonized sistems. In fact they bounced back a lot faster then the Terrans.
That's the point. The Vasudans are "homeless", much in the same way as the Terrans are "homeless". Both races have lost their home planet, the planet they originated from. The distinct difference, however, is that for Terrans, it is possible to get back their homeworld and in a relatively short time, since they were only cut out from it. Whereas the Vasudans will most likely have to wait for universally lengthy time periods (millennia), before Vasuda Prime might become even remotely inhabitable.
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The Vasudans experienced an incredible economical progress after the first GW(just look at the Hatshepsut...only a few Typhons remain while most Terran destroyers are still Orions).
I don't recall a canon evidence about Vasuda Prime needing thousands of years to return back to its previous status.
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I don't recall a canon evidence about Vasuda Prime needing thousands of years to return back to its previous status.[/color][/i]
Neither do I, but I'm making an educated guess based on a canon statement that "All major Vasudan cities were leveled, and most of the landmass was rendered uninhabitable.". In retrospect, several thousand years might be a little exaggerated, but nonetheless I'd assume it takes an arseful of time. Longer than opening the Sol node. Note: I'm guessing. No further canon to back up this assumption.
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"All major Vasudan cities" and "most of the landmass" clearly means that there are several habitable areas.
Well are floating cities something impossible to create?
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Well if there are a handful of "habitable" land areas the size of an outhouse, it would still be difficult to inhabit the planet. And, ignoring Bespin, are there floating cities somewhere?
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Well in a way the Vasudans can still terraform of vasudaform or whatever they home planet into its previous state altough there was mostly desert and stuff to begin with so the only real challenge is to get everithing back on track. Like filling up crater holes and stuff.
Also The vasudans did not lose they powerhouse and economical center like the Terrans diod.
I mean the terrans had to rebuild shypyards orbital facilaties expand mining and refining bases etc. while the Vasudans altough lost a singinificant part of they economical base they still had somehwre to start with something stable.
Also it would be nice to see a new class of warhip designed for bot races. kinda like a universal space superiority fighter for both races or something :D
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Also it would be nice to see a new class of warhip designed for bot races. kinda like a universal space superiority fighter for both races or something :D
Look at the Lost Souls dump ;)
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Well in a way the Vasudans can still terraform of vasudaform or whatever they home planet into its previous state altough there was mostly desert and stuff to begin with so the only real challenge is to get everithing back on track. Like filling up crater holes and stuff.
Heh...are there any terraformers in the canon? And what if the entire planet was saturated with radiaton? We don't know how the Lucifer's main guns work.
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Well you do have a point there. But , since a bomb, can explode with the equivalent of 500 or more gigatons and not radiate the pilots of the bombers or the fighter pilots in the area to death then it is safe to asume they have a pretty good understanding of how to deal with such problems as radiation and stuff. Also they can go pretty deap into a nebula or pretty close to the stars of different sistems and not get radiated to death so we can asume they have precautions put in place.
Also it is not said that all of Vasuda Prime was leveled and rendered uninhabitable but rather "most major cities and land masses" . If radiation was teh case then the whole planet would of been uninhabitable so it is safe to asume they meant something else.
Also the Vasudans lost just one planet out of all they colonies. The Terrans lost basicly the majoraty of its population shipyards reaserach facilaties mining operations etc. perhaps more then 90% .
So in a way it was rather harder for the Terrans to rebuild then for the Terrans .
Also this whole thing about another terran vasudan war is not something that would be apreciated especialy now after the destruction of the capella star . The GTVA already lost important amount of ships and pilots in the war against the NTF and the shivans. So a war would be the last thing on they minds. In fact survial is the prime objective behind everithing they do and a war does anithing but increase the chances of survival.
Also it is important to note that the Vasudans can hold no grudge against the terrans that were not homicidal maniacs of the GTVA since fromwhat we can see the terrans got the full force of the NTF attack's . Why well because the terrans did most of the fighting. It was somehow only normal for them to do this. Sure there was vasudan involvement in the conflict but not to the extent of the terrans .
Dont think bad of the Vasudans either since they were mostly involved in keeping the refugee convois safe as well as the vasudan sistems or sistems with vasudan presence in them. Deneb might be such a sistem.
As for joint terran vasudan project it is safe to asume they will continue with the existing programs and advance them like the pilot exchange program . It was a succesfull program . also there is at least some indication of the standardization of some sistems in GTVA fighters and bommbers this is drawn form the easyness with which the vasudans modify their own ships to acomodate terrans in them.
What would be of course really ool is to see a terran-vasudan hibrid warship . Now that would be awesome.
As for the Iceni beeing a plotline i say this to you its in game it has specs and the works so its a canon ship . While there is a debate to weather is was originaly a GTVA project or not the fact that the ship exists can not be denied. As for the random placement of its weapons well the same can be said about many other warships in FS2 . (Collie is just one ship that comes to mind) . The fact that its weapons are places in a forward firing ark is by no means strange or unless the ravana is just as strange or the Sath .
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Well you do have a point there. But , since a bomb, can explode with the equivalent of 500 or more gigatons and not radiate the pilots of the bombers or the fighter pilots in the area to death then it is safe to asume they have a pretty good understanding of how to deal with such problems as radiation and stuff. Also they can go pretty deap into a nebula or pretty close to the stars of different sistems and not get radiated to death so we can asume they have precautions put in place.
Er, protecting against radiation and getting rid of radiation across an entire planet are two different things. All ships in space need to be shielded from radiation anyway. Look at it this way, a person can keep dry by wearing a garbage bag in the rain. But if your houses is flooded with 6 feet of water in the basement, and therefore is unlivable, is that garbage bag gonna help in any way whatsoever? No.
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You have a point however radiation does not explain why "most of the planet's ....." was deemed uninhabitable . Why not declare Vasuda Prime a dead planet to begin with???
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I doubt it had to do with radiation. Its probable that the beam could have produced tectonic instability and big holes in the crust of the planet (or something like that), and also a lot of dust, gas, and ash spewed into the atmosphere. Not a fun place to live in. Even if parts of the surface were left untouched, it would not be worth trying to live in those areas.
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Agreed they will have to wait for everithing to settle down and then attempt to rebuild everithing. Well scarre or not at least they have a Homeworld to look at ! And all of they former planets are intact
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Well if there are a handful of "habitable" land areas the size of an outhouse, it would still be difficult to inhabit the planet. And, ignoring Bespin, are there floating cities somewhere?
The Vasudans could use the same concept engineers who designed skyscreapers had in mind and build immense cities. Mushroom-shaped ones could be more effective.
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I'd like to note that the Humans lost their home SYSTEM, while the Vasudans lost only their home PLANET.
While the Vasudans this way lost probably the great majority of their population (14 billions dead, I seem to remember), the other planets in the system survived just fine, I believe. Any species that expands into space is most likely to colonize the planets in its own system first, even if they may not be fully inhabitable. And there are space-based installations too, asteroid mining facilities, bases, and most importantly, shipyards...
Also, while I envision Vasuda prime as being partially covered in molten rock and stuff, presumably something was still salvageable, like data from a few research centers which may have survived, while the humans got completely cut off from the main source of science, intelligence and most likely production of their whole empire. All that was left was research and production based outside Sol and probably copies of design plans and research data available in memory banks all over the Alliance (which shouldn't be much, after all in war you try to keep classified material as secure and in few copies as possible).
Also, regarding another T-V war, I find it unlikely. First of all, the 14 year war in FS1 seemed just like a plot item to justify the military development of the Terran and Vasudans fleets on the arrival of the Shivans, and maybe to justify the arrival of the Shivans. After the arrival of this third party the 2 former enemies swiftly joined forces, and in FS2 we see great integration between the two species, almost to the point of being one thing entirely, which is also understandable, seeing as T&Vs are more alike between them than they can ever be with absolutely alien Shivans.
Also, the NTF-caused strain on relations shouldn't be too big, after all humans had to deal with Hammer of Light dissidents in the Great War and after, so there's no reason why the Vasudans should act all high and migthy accusing Humans for the NTF's crimes. Rebels are rebels, after all..
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I'd like to note that the Humans lost their home SYSTEM, while the Vasudans lost only their home PLANET.
While the Vasudans this way lost probably the great majority of their population (14 billions dead, I seem to remember), the other planets in the system survived just fine, I believe. Any species that expands into space is most likely to colonize the planets in its own system first, even if they may not be fully inhabitable. And there are space-based installations too, asteroid mining facilities, bases, and most importantly, shipyards...
First, try 4 billion. That's what it says in the command briefing of "Exodus". Then, you seem to assume that Vasuda has several inhabitable/useful systems. But that also might not be that way. Think about Sol. We have Earth. But after that we don't have much else. With enough effort colonies could be set up to Mars or the Moon, but that's about it. And statistically speaking it would be rare for a system to have several planets suitable for a species. Gas giants might be useful, if ,for example, deuterium was to be extracted from them to be used for fuel. But not necessarily.
Also, while I envision Vasuda prime as being partially covered in molten rock and stuff, presumably something was still salvageable, like data from a few research centers which may have survived, while the humans got completely cut off from the main source of science, intelligence and most likely production of their whole empire. All that was left was research and production based outside Sol and probably copies of design plans and research data available in memory banks all over the Alliance (which shouldn't be much, after all in war you try to keep classified material as secure and in few copies as possible).
I'd envision something else. The Lucifer (fleet) leveled all major cities and rendered the planet uninhabitable. There is the possibility that something might have remained intact, but if we assume that important stuff was stored to the major cities, it's gone.
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First, try 4 billion. That's what it says in the command briefing of "Exodus".
Pardon, my memory failed me.
Then, you seem to assume that Vasuda has several inhabitable/useful systems. But that also might not be that way. Think about Sol. We have Earth. But after that we don't have much else. With enough effort colonies could be set up to Mars or the Moon, but that's about it. And statistically speaking it would be rare for a system to have several planets suitable for a species. Gas giants might be useful, if ,for example, deuterium was to be extracted from them to be used for fuel. But not necessarily.
Well, I believe that in an advanced age with tecnology to travel in space and live on spaceships, colonizing and exploiting Mars or Luna wouldn't be much of a problem. The same goes with any rocky planet in the Vasudan system. And don't forget space-based installations, which are very important for an entity such as the GTVA which seems very space-based.
I'd envision something else. The Lucifer (fleet) leveled all major cities and rendered the planet uninhabitable. There is the possibility that something might have remained intact, but if we assume that important stuff was stored to the major cities, it's gone.
Well, I'd expect military research to be carried out in or around military bases, which are often not very near to major cities, and some (see cold-war nuclear bunkers) are very well fortified and suited to outlast a catastrophe. Of course they wouldn't probably survive a direct hit from the Lucifer's cannons, but who says that the Shivan knew where to shoot? Also, I'm not saying that everything survived, I'm just saying that some stuff might have.
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Remember that the Shivans destroyed stuff, they didn't really "occupy". They had "control" of Vasuda Prime for quite a long time, enough time anyway to lay waste to everything in the system. It's not like the Shivans blew up Vasuda Prime and then had a picnic. They did a lot more than that.
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Personally I still cannot believe that the Lucifer could have managed or cared to systematically waste every installation that the Vasudans might have constructed in the system during decades of space faring, and why should it have done so?
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Not the Lucifer, other destroyers/fighters/bombers/cruisers. Everything was attacked by the Shivans. Why would they simply ignore installations in Vasuda when they attacked everything else?
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data from a few research centers which may have survived
Data would have been easy, and high priority, for evacuation as the Lucy closed in, both for Vasuda and Sol.
If there's any canon evidence as to what proportion of industry, research, population etc. was in home systems I'd like to see it.
This is the first chance I've had to do this...
:welcomeblue:
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Well, I believe that in an advanced age with tecnology to travel in space and live on spaceships, colonizing and exploiting Mars or Luna wouldn't be much of a problem. The same goes with any rocky planet in the Vasudan system. And don't forget space-based installations, which are very important for an entity such as the GTVA which seems very space-based.
Don't forget a possible submarine colony "in" Europa :nod:
That is, if there is liquid water underneath that ice...
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This is the first chance I've had to do this...
:welcomeblue:
Guess it'll be the first time that I'll be thankful for getting beamed.... :P
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well fist off i would just like to say that the Vasudan loss is almost equal to the loss suffered by the terrans. Almost but not there. Since well terrans were cut off from everithing vasudans just had theyr homeworld blown from orbit. Almost the same thing but not exactly there which would go a long way to explain theyr faster economical recoveri. Even blown away at least its there and it is a moral help somewhat.
second of all i believe that the GTVA next projects will go in many directions at the same time.
Some of you will argue over the fact that they dont have the money for that. I will argue that they can not afford to wait . also i would like to remind everyone that for the better part the GTVA economy is still alive and kicking as oposed to the situation they face 30 years before.
I would just like to underline a few of the projects that the GTVA will start developing. First of all is the Knossos portal for the Sol jumpnode. Also i believe that because of the agravated circumstances and the huge strategical and economical importance of such a project it will be constructed a lot fater then previously stated by some ppl here. I strongly believe that the Sol jump portal will and should be constructed in 10 years perhaps even less.
why? well let me say this why not? I mean gaining acces to the most heaveli populated and developed sistem in the GTVA will boost trade and milatary power . And dont give me that thing about the terrans not wanting to join the GTVA since its all pretty much junk. They dont have a choice.
Also another important project will be the development of the Mjolnir cannons and the RBC's making them more lethal . Also on the same note i believe the GTVA will dedicate resources towards improving its beam cannons on all ships. This will most definetly be a joint effort.
Another series of projects will involve greather standardization of the GTVA fleet. Development of a replacement for the Orion should and will probably be a major and important requirement for the GTVA . As well as to folow up on the Iceni prototipe. Perhaps a joint endeavour or a vasudan counterpart to it as well.
Also the further research in shivan tech will definetly happen since it has proven to be very succesfull.
These are but a few of the projects that will take place withing the next 10 years . And part of the Capella refugee problem can and will be solved by the growing demand of the milatary for personell and pilots. And part of it will be solved by relocating the Capellans to other less developed or populated sistems that need development in order to facilitate growing demand for resources.
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The intellegence in either FS1 or FS2 states that Vasuda Prime is the only inhabitable planet in the system
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I don't think it's the construction that would be holding back the Sol Knossos construction. It's the understanding. You could have the scans of the Knossos working but replicating these scans would be far, far harder than just building what you see.
And the Iceni duplicate idea is stupid. I think the GTVA could build a big fleet of Icenis, but I don't think they want to. The main thing is cost. I mean, the Iceni is really just a ship that the NTF poured a lot of their stuff into to make it a good ship. It had good armor, speed, and firepower. I doubt the GTVA can make a fleet of those without spending a hell of a lot on it. Likely doing it would be ignoring the other needs of the GTVA, like well fare and making other ships. Why make a fleet of Icenis when you can make a bigger fleet of Orion replacements?
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Because not even the mighty orion can go 30 m/s and bring to bear 3 BG on a single target.
Also while the Iceni could prove to be a very expensive ship i do believe that at some point in time the GTVA will develop something similar to it . and by joind development the costs could be shared.
also they did not have just scans of the Knossos they had all the date they needed to build another knossos at least from what that scientist lady said. As for the Orion unless they start producing them in massive numbers they wont be as efective now against the shivans. Or at least make them with better beam cannons. longer range bigger power.
also nothing jump starts the economy at least for a short amount of time like military spendings .
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Because not even the mighty orion can go 30 m/s and bring to bear 3 BG on a single target.
Also while the Iceni could prove to be a very expensive ship i do believe that at some point in time the GTVA will develop something similar to it . and by joind development the costs could be shared.
Something similar, yes. Something that just might make some compromises in terms of structure or weaponary, in order to bring down the costs. And a joint project? Maybe, but not necessarily. The Terrans and Vasudans will probably continue to share technology with each other, but it is questionable, whether they'll bother with yet another literal joint project.
also they did not have just scans of the Knossos they had all the date they needed to build another knossos at least from what that scientist lady said.
Yeah, but think about it like this. We have all the data we need to build a fusion reactor. But do we have one yet? No. Reality has the bad habit of jumping in and urinating on your face when you try to accomplish something complicated and new.
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I believe you are beeing over pesimistic and sir you are looking down upon the GTVA scientists. We are limited by many things in order to make a workable fusion reactor the GTVA is limited perhaps only by resources.
Also you seem to forget that the Colossus was a joint effort. Also the Deimos has vasudan designed reactors. And im willing to bet that things extend far beyond this or rather what the player hears or sees.
Also a joint effort would make a lot of sense because it would help reduce the workload and the costs .
Dont get it why ppl believe terrans and vasudans would not work toghether i mean theyve been dooing it for more then 30 years so whats to stop them now?
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I believe you are beeing over pesimistic and sir you are looking down upon the GTVA scientists. We are limited by many things in order to make a workable fusion reactor the GTVA is limited perhaps only by resources.
Your not thinking right. We could make a Fenris with lasers and a big engine right now, but it would be exceedingly expensive and we would need a lot of wanking to get things right. Same with the Knossos, it is not just a matter of making it, you have to get it right. Like the GTA could have made micro jump drives for their own fighters for a long time, but they didn't because it wouldn't be worth it and it would have been difficult to get right. It's not Lego; it doesn't work like "Put that piece there, that bit there, that bit over there..." It's way more than just that.
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I think the knossos will be a big dividing factor between Terrans and Vasudans, since the Terrans will probably want to pour resorces into it regaurdless of cost and the Zods will probably want to concentrate on other things... like staying alive
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Yeah, I can imagine the Vasudans wanting to build a new home. Something like the Sathanas fleet, but somewhat smaller. Say six or seven ships, superdestroyer-class (its size depends on wether us Terrans help 'em or not). Then one of those ships could be taken over by the HoL and start rebelling...
/me feels sorry he hasn't got the time for making a campaign
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I hate all these "Hammer of Light returns!" stories. Old and cliched.
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I hate all these "Hammer of Light returns!" stories. Old and cliched.
But at least those make partial sense. Was it Renegade Ressurgence, where the NTF and the HOL joined forces and tried to take over the universe. I mean, geez. That would recquire both groups to suddenly and decisively abandon their ideals and just start rampaging around.
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But at least those make partial sense. Was it Renegade Ressurgence, where the NTF and the HOL joined forces and tried to take over the universe. I mean, geez. That would recquire both groups to suddenly and decisively abandon their ideals and just start rampaging around.
Renegade Resurgence (or Ressurgence) was kind of weird... It had no real plot for the first few missions...
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I hate all these "Hammer of Light returns!" stories. Old and cliched.
I do think there was a role for them in :nervous: FS3. Their tech room entry just screams for it.
(...) Other HoL leaders vanished into obscurity, (...) A few are still in hiding.
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Renegade Resurgence (or Ressurgence)
With two S's. The infamous typo that tagged along even up to the release.
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I don't think so, I believe that was just a bit of fun for some campaigns to develop upon (cuz FS does encourage modding). You could also say the Hades had a part in FS3, since its tech description also poses a few unanswered questions.
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I hate all these "Hammer of Light returns!" stories. Old and cliched.
But at least those make partial sense. Was it Renegade Ressurgence, where the NTF and the HOL joined forces and tried to take over the universe. I mean, geez. That would recquire both groups to suddenly and decisively abandon their ideals and just start rampaging around.
There was a great line explaining it though, something along the line of: "I thought the NTF hated the Vasudans" "So did I, but they actually don't."
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I hate all these "Hammer of Light returns!" stories. Old and cliched.
But at least those make partial sense. Was it Renegade Ressurgence, where the NTF and the HOL joined forces and tried to take over the universe. I mean, geez. That would recquire both groups to suddenly and decisively abandon their ideals and just start rampaging around.
There was a great line explaining it though, something along the line of: "I thought the NTF hated the Vasudans" "So did I, but they actually don't."
That doesn't explain anything, though. :confused:
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I hate all these "Hammer of Light returns!" stories. Old and cliched.
But at least those make partial sense. Was it Renegade Ressurgence, where the NTF and the HOL joined forces and tried to take over the universe. I mean, geez. That would recquire both groups to suddenly and decisively abandon their ideals and just start rampaging around.
There was a great line explaining it though, something along the line of: "I thought the NTF hated the Vasudans" "So did I, but they actually don't."
:wtf: Umm... that's sort of like having a campaign in a Star Wars game, where the rebels and the Empire were cooperating.
"I thought the Empire wanted to eradicate us and that we wanted to liberate the galaxy."
"Yeah, but I guess the point was that we must work together. Idk wtf lol."
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I meant it was so bad it was funny.
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Hmm. Sorta like The Second Great War Part II.
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That was an amazing campagin
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No doubt. But the plot and the dialogue were far too über for me and I broke down at the fifth mission or so.
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It was fantastically enjoyable. I think I like crap, cheesy things a lot, Rocky IV and Commando are two of my favourite films.
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Guess I have to give it another shot. Originally it was the... ****, I'm not gonna use spoiler tags for this ****. It was the part, where the player found out that some high-ranking-ish ex-NTF dude had gone on a crusade with a cruiser and had managed to capture a Sathanas, which he then used to destroy a rather large Shivan fleet. That caused me internal bleeding. No offense, original author...
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He's still around you know.
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Your point being...?
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He's still around you know.
:nervous: who? The NTF dude? :shaking:
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He's still around you know.
:nervous: who? The NTF dude? :shaking:
The weird guy who excessively uses the word "wonderful" in debriefings?
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TopAce. He doesn't come regularly but he still checks... I think.
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:wtf: Were we talking about the same thing? I could've sworn TopAce didn't do Second Great War part II. If he did... well... damn.
I did mock Renegade Ressurgence's plot and I still do. It was a bit, you know, dumb. But it was still fun to play the campaign. Unlike SGWP2. That was just... sad.
But people, people. Don't take me seriously. I haven't done any campaigns or anything, so I probably have little authority to nag about other people's work.
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:wtf: Were we talking about the same thing? I could've sworn TopAce didn't do Second Great War part II. If he did... well... damn.
No TopAce created Renegade Ressurgence.
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Yeah, I knew that. The communicaton failure here just made me think you were implying that he also made the um... you know. I'm not gonna say the name again, because something evil might happen.
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Yeah, I knew that. The communicaton failure here just made me think you were implying that he also made the um... you know. I'm not gonna say the name again, because something evil might happen.
Second Great War Part-- Aghhhhhhhh!!!