Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on April 02, 2008, 08:24:49 am
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http://meauxgreen.blogspot.com/2007/03/ria-novosti-russia-russian-intelligence.html
Any thoughts?
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War using what?
The US doesn't exactly have any military forces to spare for another invasion. Pull them from Iraq and the place will melt down faster than an icecube in a supernova. Pull them from Afghanistan and, besides the fact that there aren't enough troops there to hurt Iran if they were used, everyone else engaged there will use it as an excuse to get the hell out. Use any troops that remain stateside and you doom both Afganistan and Iraq as there will be noone to replace the troops already there.
Of course, they could bomb and launch a bunch of cruise missiles without too much trouble, but actual war? Not unless they intend to start drafting people to swell the ranks. And considering how easy it would be for Iran to return the favour given the number of american troops in Iraq, it would be a very bad idea to start bombing unless prepared for real fighting as well.
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I could see the draft coming... If that happens I hope to get the chance to move away. I would probably get drafted. :(
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Why is the article dated 2007?
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Didn't notice that, since that was almost exactly one year ago......
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It didn't take a genius to notice the US has forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, the Gulf, and is friendly with Pakistan. (80% of Iran's border)
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still... I could get drafted! :(
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April Fools!
HAHAHA.... OHSHI-
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What do you mean the US doesnt have enough troops? There are like 180k in Iraq and like 30k in Afghanistan. IIRC there were over 300,000 sitting in the desert for Operation: Desert Shield back in the early 90s. There are plenty to be used in Iran, and seeing as most of the problems in Iraq are coming from Iran (explosives, combatants) using some of the soldiers in Iraq in Iran would not necessarily decrease security.
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I...
lol
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The US along with many of the NATO nations have already committed whatever forces they can either militarily or politically (the Canadian Forces are at their limit for deployment) without a full mobilized war effort. Economically the US has already run far beyond what it should have...with 9 trillion dollars of debt and billions spent every day for Iraq and Afghanistan I'm a wee bit concerned what the long term outcome will be.
War with Iran would be insanity I think at this point. Not without jeopardizing all of the current operations or pulling troops from other regions (which IMHO those numbers tend to have a stabilizing effect in those areas and have for decades). What I could see would be a limited strike against targets of interest, probably by air, but not a full scale ground war.
(That might also be a bad thing right now with the F-15A-D Eagle fleet either grounded or restricted and the F-117 in the process of being retired.)
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If it came to a draft, I most certainly would volunteer before I'm drafted.
I might not like the US's current foreign policy, but it's still my country. If I went anywhere else I'd either be a stupid, rich, vulnerable Westerner or a backwater yank. If some-idiot-on-high decided to go to war with Iran, the US will need all the troops it can get.
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It's really a lot of wasteful spending too. I mean, we're not exactly fighting enemies with comparable arsenals anymore, and very few potentially hostile nations can match up to the US military technologically. The Air Force spends billions developing the F-35 while we're fighting insurgents who have no access to an air force at all.
And if they try to draft me...good luck. I already volunteered. :p
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Here's some more recent information (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JD01Ak01.html)
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well, if the US ever does go to war with Iran then we are retarded, remember when Iraq went to war with Iran? A larger better trained better equipped force was defeated then because every male from the age of 12 up joined the military and pushed them back with a wall of people. When the US invaded Iraq the civilian population and some of the military just stayed out of it, I dont think the same thing will happen in Iran
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AC-130.. A wall of people cannot stop that..
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A wall of people with portable SAM launchers might. :p
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http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=%20CH20060103&articleId=1714
How can we be so ****ing stupid
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That article is from 2006.
Although if McCain gets into office I have little doubt they will go ahead with this. I recall reading somewhere McCain said "we will exhaust all our options before going to war with Iran" (paraphrased); Bush said exactly the same thing about Iraq in 2002.
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Could we please either stop the useless banter or get some real information from recent, credible sources in this thread?
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Could we please either stop the useless banter or get some real information from recent, credible sources in this thread?
I agree.
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Could we please either stop the useless banter or get some real information from recent, credible sources in this thread?
With several people *****ing about US conscription as if it were at all likely, I think you're asking too much.
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Could we please either stop the useless banter or get some real information from recent, credible sources in this thread?
Gates, Rice and Mullen told Cheney that he was going to have his war over their dead bodies. But they all still hate Iran, so they settled for imposing crippling economic sanctions and isolating them politically. Then they laughed and laughed.
That's pretty much the long and short of it.
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If it came to a draft, I most certainly would volunteer before I'm drafted.
I might not like the US's current foreign policy, but it's still my country. If I went anywhere else I'd either be a stupid, rich, vulnerable Westerner or a backwater yank. If some-idiot-on-high decided to go to war with Iran, the US will need all the troops it can get.
braver than me... :yes:
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If it came to a draft, I most certainly would volunteer before I'm drafted.
I might not like the US's current foreign policy, but it's still my country. If I went anywhere else I'd either be a stupid, rich, vulnerable Westerner or a backwater yank. If some-idiot-on-high decided to go to war with Iran, the US will need all the troops it can get.
braver than me... :yes:
no, just dumber.
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If it came to a draft, I most certainly would volunteer before I'm drafted.
I might not like the US's current foreign policy, but it's still my country. If I went anywhere else I'd either be a stupid, rich, vulnerable Westerner or a backwater yank. If some-idiot-on-high decided to go to war with Iran, the US will need all the troops it can get.
braver than me... :yes:
no, just dumber.
So says the guy behind the rock.
Anywho.... If it comes down to the draft getting reinstated, then we're pretty much doomed. The current state of the U.S. population isn't exactly inspiring. After all, an army of obese troops isn't much of an army. Or is it? All hail the mighty McDonald's army! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :drevil:
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Tell that to the Germans
http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0447168320080304 (http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN0447168320080304)
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nobody who is fighting for this country is actually working in the country's best interests. they're fighting and dying to line the pockets of individuals who are already obscenely rich.
the only time i'd pick up a weapon for this country is for a defensive war.
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the only time i'd pick up a weapon for this country is for a defensive war.
No argument there.
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*cough*
The FinCEN report: http://www.fincen.gov/fin-2008-a002.html
The State Department Press Release: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2008/mar/102437.htm
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For crying out loud, conscription is not going to happen. End of story.
In the past few decades, the US has learned that a volunteer army allows them to completely avoid the problems that plagued the country during the Vietnam era. Sure, with a population of 200 million plus, there's a rather nice pool to draw from, but the infrastructure needed to not only handle the influx of new people but actually forge them into a useful fighting force... well, I just think that the current US social and economic climate just can't cope without some serious, serious problems.
If it came to a draft, I most certainly would volunteer before I'm drafted.
I might not like the US's current foreign policy, but it's still my country. If I went anywhere else I'd either be a stupid, rich, vulnerable Westerner or a backwater yank. If some-idiot-on-high decided to go to war with Iran, the US will need all the troops it can get.
braver than me... :yes:
No, as Turambar said, just dumber. Too many people these days mistake courage for abject stupidity.
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So you're saying everyone who joined the US military voluntarily (read: none of the "jail or army" types) are idiots?
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For crying out loud, conscription is not going to happen. End of story.
McCain said if he was elected president he would increase the size of the army by 100,000. With recruiting the way it is (namely they constantly fall way short of their quotas), how else will they get so many new people?
EDIT: BTW nuclear, why did you join?
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About a hundred reasons.
It pays for education, keeps me in shape, provides health care for a family when the time comes, etc etc
Plus being paid to go to school on the California coast and learn a trade that could potentially yield six figures in the civilian world after my service is up isn't bad either. :)
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...potentially yield six figures in the civilian world after my service is up isn't bad either. :)
I hear that :yes:
If they started drafting people the military would go down hill fast, morale is low enough without throwing in a bunch of people that have no desire at all to be in in the military. Everyone in now has or at one time had the motivation to serve their country, you cant say that about conscripts. The only reason people even talk about is to because its a scare tactic some politician found a way to say "vote for me and you wont be drafted" without actually saying it
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So you're saying everyone who joined the US military voluntarily (read: none of the "jail or army" types) are idiots?
Not at all. When someone joins the military, there can be any number of reasons weighing in on that decision. There are some pretty good incentives for military service, and if someone wants to join, more power to them
Except when you join to fight. Volunteering to go where the bullets are doesn't mean that you're brave, it means you're too stupid to be scared.
If they started drafting people the military would go down hill fast, morale is low enough without throwing in a bunch of people that have no desire at all to be in in the military. Everyone in now has or at one time had the motivation to serve their country, you cant say that about conscripts.
Exactly. Bringing back the draft simply wouldn't be worth it. Better to have a volunteer army, where you can silence any objecting soldier with "you volunteered, remember?".
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Exactly. Bringing back the draft simply wouldn't be worth it. Better to have a volunteer army, where you can silence any objecting soldier with "you volunteered, remember?".
lol, it only works till said soldier can say "yeah, but stop-loss started 2 days before I was suppose to get out"
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*cough*
The FinCEN report: http://www.fincen.gov/fin-2008-a002.html
The State Department Press Release: http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2008/mar/102437.htm
Yup, that's what I was talking about.
http://japanfocus.org/products/details/2707
These sanctions, if they are enacted as they seem likely to be, would be far more devastating to Iran than any bombing campaign. They are meant to shut down the economy of an entire nation - lock, stock and barrel. Punishing 70 million people for the alleged crimes of a few dozen is both incredibly evil and incredibly stupid. A backwards, starving Iran is a greater threat to security than a prosperous, content Iran.
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So you're saying everyone who joined the US military voluntarily (read: none of the "jail or army" types) are idiots?
Not at all. When someone joins the military, there can be any number of reasons weighing in on that decision. There are some pretty good incentives for military service, and if someone wants to join, more power to them
Except when you join to fight. Volunteering to go where the bullets are doesn't mean that you're brave, it means you're too stupid to be scared.
Personal expirience? Or are you just making this up as you go?
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These sanctions, if they are enacted as they seem likely to be, would be far more devastating to Iran than any bombing campaign. They are meant to shut down the economy of an entire nation - lock, stock and barrel. Punishing 70 million people for the alleged crimes of a few dozen is both incredibly evil and incredibly stupid. A backwards, starving Iran is a greater threat to security than a prosperous, content Iran.
Perhaps. But change always comes most effectively in the groundswell from below rather than the lightning bolt from above. It's cruel, and it's evil, certainly, but it's not stupid. If Radical Islam won't feed you...surely you can fill in the rest.
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Not at all. When someone joins the military, there can be any number of reasons weighing in on that decision. There are some pretty good incentives for military service, and if someone wants to join, more power to them
Except when you join to fight. Volunteering to go where the bullets are doesn't mean that you're brave, it means you're too stupid to be scared.
I take it you don't actually, you know, know all that many active-duty personnel.
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These sanctions, if they are enacted as they seem likely to be, would be far more devastating to Iran than any bombing campaign. They are meant to shut down the economy of an entire nation - lock, stock and barrel. Punishing 70 million people for the alleged crimes of a few dozen is both incredibly evil and incredibly stupid. A backwards, starving Iran is a greater threat to security than a prosperous, content Iran.
Perhaps. But change always comes most effectively in the groundswell from below rather than the lightning bolt from above. It's cruel, and it's evil, certainly, but it's not stupid. If Radical Islam won't feed you...surely you can fill in the rest.
Phew, good thing us westerners aren't trying to hold ourselves to a better standard.
I take it you don't actually, you know, know all that many active-duty personnel.
Not many, no. What, I require personal or direct experience with the service to disagree with soldier worship?
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Not at all. When someone joins the military, there can be any number of reasons weighing in on that decision. There are some pretty good incentives for military service, and if someone wants to join, more power to them
So what you're saying is that it's only a smart decision if you join for personal gain? :doubt:
Except when you join to fight. Volunteering to go where the bullets are doesn't mean that you're brave, it means you're too stupid to be scared.
Wow. Once again, so says the person behind the rock. :rolleyes:
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So what you're saying is that it's only a smart decision if you join for personal gain? :doubt:
No, i'm saying it's stupid to volunteer to go where the bullets are at. Is the concept really that hard to grasp? Anyway, it's not so much that i'm calling people stupid, just calling out the fact that most people tend to confuse bravery with being too stupid to be scared.
Wow. Once again, so says the person behind the rock. :rolleyes:
I'm sure i'd find that comment much more cutting if I knew what you meant. :wtf:
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I think he's trying to call you a coward.
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or a limpid :D
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I think he's trying to call you a coward.
Is he even in the army?
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I think he's trying to call you a coward.
Is he even in the army?
¯\(°_o)/¯
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Perhaps. But change always comes most effectively in the groundswell from below rather than the lightning bolt from above. It's cruel, and it's evil, certainly, but it's not stupid. If Radical Islam won't feed you...surely you can fill in the rest.
But the thing is - Iran isn't really the big bad boogey-man it's made out to be. The people are among the more pro-Western pro-secular in the Middle East. And even the government largely contents itself with shutting down the occasional newspaper and making a big show of cheering on the Palis. No, for the real fundamentalists one would have to look at the likes of Saudi Arabia and Egypt. And yet, paradoxically, these are armed by Western governments and supported by Western business. Making Iran poor and isolated will increase nationalism and religious fervor, not decrease it. Nearly every (Iranian) opposition leader of note has said as much. And even if the Islamic Republic is toppled, Iranians aren't going to elect a government that will be friendly to those who starved them.
All this is assuming that you accept the notion of trying to change a sovereign nation's political system because you find it distasteful. Which I absolutely don't.
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In terms of soldiers I believe there's three different types I've seen so far in my time:
First there's the sort that prove Mefustae's point, the ones that are too stupid to be scared. They're mostly the sort that join because every male in their family had been a soldier or had fought in every war before them. I've seen surprisingly few of these though, and they seem to be almost entirely Marines and Army.
Secondly, there's the type that join to get the benefits but are a little more iffy about combat/deployment than the first group. They join for the secure income after they drop out of college and can't find anything else to do. Fortunately most of these don't last long and a fair percentage wash out/are discharged during A School/Tech school.
Then there's the idealists. This is the group of people that joined out of patriotic/borderline nationalist fervor, are looking for a secure job that provides a good environment to raise a family and accept the fact that they will face deployment unlike the second group. Unlike thje first group that looks to deployment for glory, they tend to be the ones who see deployment as their chance to make a difference. They want to be the ones whose work saves lives and stops another terrorist attack.
Fortunately 75% of the folks that I have met during my time have been from the third set, from my Basic Training instructors to the officers out here in California, not to mention most of the new guys I've been with since Basic.
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wait a second, what branch are you in? I've got a friend in the navy out that way.
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Is he at San Diego or Monterey?
I'm Air Force at Monterey, DLI.
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Oh, well he's in San Diego so... yeah.
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Marines or Navy nuclear?
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I've got a friend in the navy out that way.
not a marine, he's going to be on a boat of some kind. That's all I know.
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In terms of soldiers I believe there's three different types I've seen so far in my time:
First there's the sort that prove Mefustae's point, the ones that are too stupid to be scared. They're mostly the sort that join because every male in their family had been a soldier or had fought in every war before them. I've seen surprisingly few of these though, and they seem to be almost entirely Marines and Army.
Secondly, there's the type that join to get the benefits but are a little more iffy about combat/deployment than the first group. They join for the secure income after they drop out of college and can't find anything else to do. Fortunately most of these don't last long and a fair percentage wash out/are discharged during A School/Tech school.
Then there's the idealists. This is the group of people that joined out of patriotic/borderline nationalist fervor, are looking for a secure job that provides a good environment to raise a family and accept the fact that they will face deployment unlike the second group. Unlike thje first group that looks to deployment for glory, they tend to be the ones who see deployment as their chance to make a difference. They want to be the ones whose work saves lives and stops another terrorist attack.
Fortunately 75% of the folks that I have met during my time have been from the third set, from my Basic Training instructors to the officers out here in California, not to mention most of the new guys I've been with since Basic.
Lulz. Don't believe everything people say.
There is only one reason people join the army. It's always a combo of desperation and boredom (those two ARE one in this case, don't correct me). Desperation being not having any money and a ****ed up family (You don't see the rich kids with proper families volounteering much do ya? No, they have the family business to run, and infest the world with nepotism, or you know, masturbate in school until they're 30) and boredom is usually the part of not knowing what to do with your life and/or failing at most things you do, so you know, might as well join the army since bagging groceries is kind of shameful. Rather die from a bullet if you know what I mean.
Patriotism, benefits, stupidity, and all that are just words that are as worthless as they sound. Excuses to mask the above.
It's one of the reasons the USA pretty much lost every war since WW2. In WW2 everyone was taken to the battlefield, including the intelligent people, the people with rich parents (****, even the rich parents went), extensive educational backgrounds etc. were all in it to win it, and it worked so well because of the smart people. However later on the draft started excluding the college and graduate students, surely the rich as well (in wars that were really about something else completely than what was advertised) until the draft was revoked and only the poor indignant who didn't know any better were given the "choice" to go die in some desert or jungle for no real reason given whatsoever.
Nothing quite like desperation, hunger and lack of prospects to make one sign up. And it's not like this is only in the USA. It's like that over here too. Everywhere really.
It's why kids carry AK-47's in the third world. They start 'em early there, because prospects? Lulz. What prospects.
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No, they have the family business to run, and infest the world with nepotism, or you know, masturbate in school until they're 30
or you know, masturbate in school until they're 30
masturbate in school
:yes:
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That was incredibly immature and uncalled for.
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Then reassess what I might have meant.
(If that will make it look somehow insightful, I guess.)
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I counter that education (good education) is a good thing to get and that if more people had one it would probably solve a lot of the problems we're dealing with now.
Unless by "masturbate in school" you mean, "screw around and party and not actually learn anything useful" then I agree totally.
And if you meant something else entirely, then disregard. :nervous:
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Yeah I really just enjoyed that he said "masturbate in school."
Although I will take this opportunity to suggest that the workload of most grad students is such that they have no time to masturbate.
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If you're talking about the types in infantry school, sure, I've got no quarrel with you.
Just about every other job in every service, though, I'd have to disagree. That might be because I'm out here at an intel school and all of the smartest people in each branch tends to come through here, but I think my earlier points still stand. My dorm chief from Basic came out here with me, and his dad's a millionaire. Another was in flight school before he joined, another set to take over his father's steel mill in Philadelphia, and yet another graduated as a political science major and had several think tanks looking to hire her. In fact, I think I have actually met very few of those people who truly joined out of desperation, and they either washed out in Basic or are in low-skill jobs like Security Forces or cooks.
Point is, I think you're unfairly labeling the US military as the same from Vietnam, which it is far from. If anything is attributed to the US being less-than-effective in post-WW2 conflicts it's either guerilla warfare or the generally negative outlook on conflict that America has developed after Vietnam.
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ok ok ok, allow me to interject.
I work with a rich boy, and I think there should be fewer of them in the army, he is retarded as hell and thinks somebody will bail him out every time he f***s up or screws around till he cant get anything done before it needs to be. He takes drama way to seriously, and situations that effect people living and dieing like it nothing. F***ing rich b****. He has been with us for a year and still acts like a new guy. He joined because he got a bad grade in college and wanted to pay of his student loans.
Then I work with a man in his 30's that went to school for 8 years (I dont know what degree that is) he was making over 100000 a year working for a private company, he joined because he wanted to give something back to the country that gave so much to him.
I also work with a guy that was a certified automotive technician that worked at one of those high end speed shops that takes cars that have 500hp and put it up to 1000hp. the kind where people write them blank checks, nobody knows more about cars than this guy. He joined the army because he wanted to change his career.
I joined a few months after high school. Why? I dont know, I had good enough grades, graduated with honors, I had my choice of schools, nobody had more extracurricular activities and better grades than I had. I did it because I could, I didnt have a reason.
People join the army for all kinds of reasons, 12 friends I went to school with joined the marines, air force, navy , or army. There are more that are going to school and plan to come in as officers. Nuclear1 is right, few people join out of desperation.
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I joined a few months after high school. Why? I dont know, I had good enough grades, graduated with honors, I had my choice of schools, nobody had more extracurricular activities and better grades than I had. I did it because I could, I didnt have a reason.
I find the fact that you made such a crucial life decision on a whim very comforting. :blah:
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Perhaps. But change always comes most effectively in the groundswell from below rather than the lightning bolt from above. It's cruel, and it's evil, certainly, but it's not stupid. If Radical Islam won't feed you...surely you can fill in the rest.
Phew, good thing us westerners aren't trying to hold ourselves to a better standard.
I don't agree with it, I merely wish to point out it's not quite as bat**** crazy as you might think.
I take it you don't actually, you know, know all that many active-duty personnel.
Not many, no. What, I require personal or direct experience with the service to disagree with soldier worship?
No, but it helps if you don't talk out of your ass in the process.
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The Trolls - Stop feeding them
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The Trolls - Stop feeding them
But if no one feeds them, how will they grow up to be big and strong? :(
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I joined a few months after high school. Why? I dont know, I had good enough grades, graduated with honors, I had my choice of schools, nobody had more extracurricular activities and better grades than I had. I did it because I could, I didnt have a reason.
I find the fact that you made such a crucial life decision on a whim very comforting. :blah:
I find it disturbing, and whenever a high ranking officer asks me why I joined I feel awkward, Ive been yelled at because some people think Im just being a smart @$$
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No, that's actually extremely commendable. If more people made decisions on a whim, without necessarily being sure of their reasons of the path it would take them down, the world would be a less boring place with fewer boring people in it.
But to veer the conversation back on topic: Iran, apparently, hasn't (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7336089.stm) the slightest clue what the word "strategy" means. It's almost as if Ahmadinejad is trying to destroy his nation's power. Look, I absolutely and unequivocally support Iran's right to enrich uranium. But it must be realized that the governments of the world's ~10 most powerful nations don't share that view. Fighting for principles and ideals in international politics is rather naive and ****ing useless. And as much as I would like to see the scrappy underdog win, Iran is in the process of being absolutely buried by Western governments who don't like uppity colonies making unreasonable demands. It's time to negotiate; to pull a Gaddafi, swallow one's pride and start making concessions.
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Well, Iran's oil production is in decline IIRC, without nuclear how else will they get enough electricity?
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Maybe Iran running out of oil is the goal. ;)
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Well, Iran's oil production is in decline IIRC, without nuclear how else will they get enough electricity?
If their leadership had a brain in their collective skulls, they'd cozy up to as many Western states as possible, sell the oil, and get the OK for supervised nuclear reactors for energy production. Which is exactly what the majority of Iranians would support if they weren't stuck with a backwards government which is still living in the 1980s.
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About soldiers, Blackdove's view should not be belittled. In the end, it is the soldier who will find himself eating the dirt while... Actually, I think I should drop posting under influence, but since this is good times with the alcohol promille, I shall continue. I always found the professional soldier a little bit difficult subject. He is something which on a idealistic side is quite respectable, but in the end the person himself might not be that respectable. Please remember that the infantry is still the one that takes control of the ground and wins the war, if at all possible, and most of the Army is composed of infantry, which will give its signature to the war machine.
With Iran the only thing I can say is that the law applies equivalently to everybody, or no-one at all. I don't mean to give them green card for all things, of course some supervision is needed, as in any other country using nuclear power. But should there appear solid proof for malicious intent, ready for action!
Mika
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Israel is always ready to fabricate proof that its neighbors are looking to create nuclear weapons!
pay no attention to the real nuclear armed rogue nation in the middle east.
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Israel is always ready to fabricate proof that its neighbors are looking to create nuclear weapons!
pay no attention to the real nuclear armed rogue nation in the middle east.
Oh, snap!
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Well, Iran's oil production is in decline IIRC, without nuclear how else will they get enough electricity?
If their leadership had a brain in their collective skulls, they'd cozy up to as many Western states as possible, sell the oil, and get the OK for supervised nuclear reactors for energy production. Which is exactly what the majority of Iranians would support if they weren't stuck with a backwards government which is still living in the 1980s.
Except what would be the cost of such "sucking up"? How long would they have to suck-up to gain the the trust of the west? Decades?
What concessions would they have to make? You have no idea what those concessions would be...and how possible it is with Israel, who will be the last to trust them and will pressure the est into doing the same?