Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: lostllama on April 20, 2008, 02:18:23 pm
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I came across this site: http://redfaction.volitionwatch.com/fsfps/ (http://redfaction.volitionwatch.com/fsfps/). Hasn't been updated since late '01.
The 'featured shots archive' link under the pic of the Vasudan on the right hand side has some concept art for weapons and a new kind of transport ship. Just thought I'd share this find with anyone interested... if it's not already too much old news. :)
FreeSpace: Close Quarters was another attempt at an FPS but that one seems to be dead too (link is under External Sites>Game Warden at top of this page).
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read this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,53074.msg1074094.html#msg1074094) :p
though honestly, if you can get it back up and such, i don't think anyone would oppose.
... you know, if you had expierience in modding for it, you can make it so that you would have a couple of maps with the proper sides in BF2. but a stand alone of another game would work better.
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Well I have no experience in modding for any game. I'm not really the person to organise rejuvinating projects (I'm more of a tester, when RL allows me to be). I guess peoples' efforts are more geared towards enhancing FSO.
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ya... though i'm pretty interested in FS ground forces and stuff like that too...
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Same here considering the lack of info on them. Are the Red Faction games any good? Personally I'm not really into that kind of genre but I'd definitely take a look at an FS inspired one, especially if you could order squadmates around (like you can in FS).
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I'm not allowed to play FPS games unless its like an action-adventure that has a story as opposed to mindless shooting people until your char is up to his eyeballs in blood.
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I'm not allowed to play FPS games unless its like an action-adventure that has a story as opposed to mindless shooting people until your char is up to his eyeballs in blood.
Well, at least you can play the good ones then.
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The first Red Faction was a pretty decent game, but kinda bland in the art department. Geomod was wicked though. Red Faction 2 was ok, but forgettable.
if one where to approach an FS themed shooter now, a more modern and widespread engine would be needed. something like source or Unreal 3, that would be around for the length of time it would require to do it.
Then there is the story issues...where and when would one set it?
I'm probably best used as a writer around here, and would love to take a crack at writing something like this. but its not really worth doing if people aren't seriously interested in it.
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Not a lot is given away on that site about the story or the places it takes place on/in, but I get the impression that the modder(s) who were designing it had detailed plans for one. If they could be contacted then that would be something to go on, if nothing else. There're pages on the site with historical info etc that would have fleshed it out a bit.
Edit: I envisage that expectations would be very high considering the FPS's people play now... Especially in terms of graphics and (maybe) realism etc.
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zero-G environments are a must.
Maybe a campaign following the attempts to track and kill a traitor, then follow the trail of a prototype thing he stole...
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Zero-G, yeah definitely, not sure how it could be made to work controls-wise though. It should also have the option of allowing the player to be a shivan. Also would be cool to be able to walk on the outside of a space ship and stuff and take pot-shots at enemy fighters.
Maybe a campaign following the attempts to track and kill a traitor, then follow the trail of a prototype thing he stole...
...Rings a bell.
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Maybe a campaign following the attempts to track and kill a traitor, then follow the trail of a prototype thing he stole...
Creativity FTW. (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Avenging_Angels)
Zero-G, yeah definitely, not sure how it could be made to work controls-wise though. It should also have the option of allowing the player to be a shivan.
Yeah, maybe a mission where a team of marines attempts to board a Shivan freighter. Ooh, with the player being a Shivan! Oh wait...
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Idk how an fs themed fps would work out for us. We'd be essentially making a new complete game with whatever the hell we think is freespacey enough to toss into it. Not that that's a bad thing. But, there's going to be whiners who will arise.
But, it'd be cool. Zero-g, do something cool like hijack a shivan bomber when stowed away on a shivan ship. Taking down a shivan with tons of firepower would be a lot of fun too.
Titan you need to play duke nukem 3d.
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I expect the artwork requirements would be overwhelming. Even for an MP only game, the modelling and animation needs are substantial. An SP game would also need much more environment work, which the player will pass through quickly and barely noticing (unless it's crap). I gave some thought to implementing ideas I have for an MP only game, but was scared off by the art I'd need but can't do. I was leaning towards Torque, partly because of its excellent networking, but Sauerbraten may have been good too.
For engine choice, there are I think three main categories:
Mod an existing commercial game. No access to source code, so limited in what can be achieved. Mod only available to those who have the original game. Modable games often have relatively easy to use tools however, sometimes free. XSI Mod Tool (http://www.softimage.com/products/modtool/) is free for modelling for Unreal Engine and Source based mods for example.
Buy a relatively cheap commercial engine licence. Examples, Torque (http://www.garagegames.com/products/28/) and Lawmaker (http://www.darkroomstudios.com/content/view/61/171/). Can build a standalone game, often get source code. Tend to be less technologically impressive than AAA-grade engines (duh). Don't necessarily have good tools. Torque improved mapping with the free release of Constructor (http://garagegames.com/products/torque/constructor/) (which can also be used for other engines), but modelling is either Blender or a commercial package. There are content packs available. Also, costs money. Edit: C4 (http://www.terathon.com/c4engine/index.php) needs a mention here.
Open source engines. Examples, Sauerbraten (http://sauerbraten.org/) (Cube 2), Irrlicht (http://irrlicht.sourceforge.net/index.html), Yake (http://www.yake.org/) or Quake 3 (ioquake3). Q3 is old, and others seem to be permanently not-quite-ready. Sauerbraten has in-game, interactive, multi user (!) mapping. Source code access, can distribute to anyone, free. Tools may be an issue.
See the DevMaster engine database (http://www.devmaster.net/engines/). GarageGames has a handy resources (http://www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=home) directory, and a busy and knowledgeable community forum.
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ioquake3 is a capable engine alright. And may even be a good choice. One example to see it really shine is to take a look at the game nexuiz. The q3 engine while old, is still popular and still in use to a good degree. Especially after id released the q3 engine source code. The ioquake3 engine is also superior to the original engine. Bug fixes and upgrades have been issued making it a superior successor to the original q3 engine. After that for seeing how much the engine can be modified take a look at the game nexuiz.
Why not the q3 engine? It worked absolutely great for space themed fps's for what an fs fps would be similar too which is star trek voyager elite force, and star trek elite force 2.
EDIT: If you want another engine that's popular and familiar to people and works great. Go grab duke3d. It's source code got released and has many enhancements as well as level building tools and other stuff. Many are already using the duke3d engine to make their own games.
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Nexuiz is based on Darkplaces (http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/), a heavily modified Quake 1 based engine. Also note qfusion (http://www.hkitchen.net/qfusion/), based on Quake 2.
ioquake3 is a capable engine alright. And may even be a good choice.
It's possibly the lowest-risk choice. Mature, repeatedly proven, well designed, many experienced people, support from many content creation tools, source code access if something needs to be changed. As community projects easily fail, the risk of project-killing unforeseen problems needs to be minimised, and ioquake3 will fit the bill. It's also free.
For downsides, its renderer is dated (no shaders), and its not great at complex outdoor scenes.
Any decision on engine should be made carefully, and with consideration of the specific needs of the title and the experience of the developers. The plans I was making required large, detailed outdoor areas and a large number of players, which are the strengths of Torque and Sauerbraten, as well as Battlefield. Sauerbraten is an unusual engine, with a working MP game, and well worth a look. Its animation system seems primitive though. Edit: I may be telling heinous lies about Sauer's animation.
EDIT: If you want another engine that's popular and familiar to people and works great. Go grab duke3d.
You mean Build (http://www.jonof.id.au/index.php?p=jfbuild)? It's prehistoric, even the "polymost" version. Level editing in 2D is quick and easy, but no one would play the results. Nostalgia value only.
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Tweaking - a dev has commited it and is just finishing off little adjustments
Done/Fixed - for when it's completely done
3.6.10
Features:
- new FS2NetD2 code (Taylor)
- OpenGL fixes (Taylor)
- reworked ships lab (Taylor)
- reduced memory footprint (Taylor)
- and better multi-format file loading (particularly for music). (Taylor)
- ships.tbl level texture replacement (Skinning) (Taylor)
- Enhanced Autopilot (builting cinematics) (Kazan) Tweaking
- Fiction Viewer (Goober)
- FS1 hud (Goober)
- fire-turret (Goober)
- invalidate-goal force (Goober)
- 'dynamicification' of MAX_PARSE_OBJECTS (Goober)
- Shield/weapon energy regen ship specific, measured in %/sec [Rqst: WCS]
- $disable linked fire penalty [Rqst: WCS]
- Ships.tbl "Flash"-effect flag needs work - brighter, quicker (<.25s duration) [Rqst: WCS]
- more explosion variety [Rqst: WCS]
Bugfixes:
- #1441 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1441) Able to target beyond max radar range (Kazan) FIXED
- #1315 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1315) FRED won't display ship info, such as name and co-ordinates (Goober)
- #1242 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1242) Mods being validated when they arent supposed to (Kazan)
- #1331 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1331) Crash on the Nebula color change (Kazan)
- #1431 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1431) Crash when setting cues in FRED (Kazan)
- #1203 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1203) Multi player host mission select list not displaying all missions (Kazan)
- #1281 (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=1281) After using cutscene sexps to teleport player to a new position warships have no collision detection (Kazan) FIXED[
3.6.11
Features:
- Compressed VPs (taylor)
- New scripting code (from HEAD) (WMC)
- SLDC (Shield Collision Trees) (Kazan)
- no collide subobject prop (if nobody else does it by then) (Kazan)
- Gravity Points (Goober)
- Explosion Time (Goober)
- Communications menu customization (Goober)
- Comm Taunting + Hostile death messages (me - they would go with the comm customizations) (Goober)
- Make alt-command briefing window - textbox at bottom, video window 2x large, video player capable of playing .mve/.ogg [Rqst: WCS]
- surface-shields would emit shield-hit ani [Rqst: WCS]
- taunts - four built-in message lines for taunts (random selection between list via 1 hotkey) - 2 taunts to target = 50% chance it changes target to taunter [Rqst: WCS] (same as what is already listed in roadmap under goober)
- Rework planetary orbits code - be able to specify "too close" distance [Rqst: WCS]
Bugfixes:
Features:
3.7
- Advanced Hazards System (better asteroids, mines, etc) (Kazan & Goober)
- Objects behind other objects become sensor obscured (if occluding object is properly flagged) (required for AHS)
- Region-defined volumetric fogging [via shaders? if via shaders we can get shader soft-shadows too Big grin] (required for AHS) (Kazan)
- Draw/don't draw hazard objects based upon distance-to-observer (ie they blend into the fog so don't have to be spent drawing) (required for AHS) (Kazan)
- New section in .fs2 format for defining AHS entities (Kazan)
- Improved Starfield (adding bitmap stars of various sizes to current AAlines stars, skewing distribution toward galatic plane, and possible toward nebula bitmaps) (Kazan)
- OBJ3 http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,47751.0.html (Bobboau)
- damage decals return (Bobboau)
- wxFred (Goober & Bobboau)
- First Person Shooter emulation (Goober)
- Custom HUD layouts per fighter [Rqst: WCS]
- Customizable Mainhall - with "doors" to other rooms (ex to mission simulator) [Rqst: WCS]
- HUD Weapon-selection alternative graphics (see 2j http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39377.0.html) [Rqst: WCS]
Bugfixes:
Unscheduled
Features:
- Merge Imperial Alliance codebase (Goober)
Bugfixes:
Last Update: July 30, 2007
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Whilst Quake 3 is incorporated in many games and free, I think a modern high-end engine like Unity 3D or Torque would be a better choice.
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Whilst Quake 3 is incorporated in many games and free, I think a modern high-end engine like Unity 3D or Torque would be a better choice.
Unity3D authoring requires MacOS and it appears Windows deployment requires the Pro version. This probably eliminates it from consideration.
FSO is never going to be as good an FPS engine as one designed for the task.
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Idk how an fs themed fps would work out for us. We'd be essentially making a new complete game with whatever the hell we think is freespacey enough to toss into it. Not that that's a bad thing. But, there's going to be whiners who will arise.
I agree, even if an engine is decided on to develop it with, getting a final consensus of opinion from the community on what designs/artwork etc to incorporate is bound to be difficult.
Maybe the best we could hope for is perhaps a kind of 'demonstration' user-made FreeSpace FPS being produced, just using the environments, models and weapons seen in the FS1 hallfight cutscene (or stuff very close to them as all we have is a cutscene for reference), with no other creative stuff added... kind of like a recreation of the events in the cutscene (not necessarily with the same ending, mind)....:nervous:... just as a starting point and to see if it's doable. But I guess that even doing something along those lines would take up a lot of people's time.
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Before we can decide on an engine, we need to know what we will be asking of it.
I strongly recommend focusing on multiplayer. There is much less mapping needed, and its MP that (usually) gives a game longevity (FS being an apparent exception). Each map can have a stand alone plot, so we could have maps from the T-V War and the Shivan boarding of the Iceni.
The obvious thing to go for is an asymmetric team based game, with Terran, Vasudan, and Shivan teams, and allowing for TvT and VvV. Think Alien versus Predator (1/2) or Enemy Territory: Quake Wars. In AvP2, the Predators were the most individually powerful as the Shivans would be here. Terrans would have familiar weapons (assault rifle, machine gun, sniper, rocket launcher). Vasudans would be awkward to do, as we would want to differentiate them from Terrans despite having similar technology and capability. Fish eye lens effect anyone? AvP2 had different view modes available for each race.
One thing I'd like to see, but haven't, is an SF game with pseudo-realistic weapons mixed with weird alien critters. By pseudo-realistic I mean projectile weapons simulating barrel climb and accuracy dropping on autofire. Possibly also simulating real world ballistics (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ballistics.htm). Counterstrike is the obvious example, also Day of Defeat, Red Orchestra and probably a few others. Doing this would make the Terrans feel more realistic, which in turn would make the aliens fell more, well, alien. It would also make mastering the weapons more of a challenge.
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Quite obviously, there needs to be lotsa subtile balancing, because I'd bet Shivans can kick the butts of five marines with quita... let's say, no work at all.
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Titan you need to play duke nukem 3d.
not allowed to play FPS games unless they're...
I'm not allowed to play FPS games unless its like an action-adventure that has a story as opposed to mindless shooting people until your char is up to his eyeballs in blood.
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This mod is as dead as a mod can be. What you want to do is make an entire game based around one cutscene.
You will fail.
Your best bet is probably to attempt to make a Vasudan as a player model for Unreal Tournament or Quake or something. When that's done you can think about bigger things.
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I take it no one here checked out the heavily modified opensource quake3 engine based game nexuiz. It has shaders and everything else modern found in games. If you go q3 using nexuiz is the way to go.
But, yeah, this mod is so dead.
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Honestly I don't think Hard-Light has the skilled modder man power to take on a project of the size that seems to be suggested here.
A first person shooter wouldn't be a little side project; unlike a FreeSpace RTS it would require new models, a different engine, and new creative design.
I take it no one here checked out the heavily modified opensource quake3 engine based game nexuiz. It has shaders and everything else modern found in games. If you go q3 using nexuiz is the way to go.
But, yeah, this mod is so dead.
Nexuiz is built on an engine called Darkplaces. It's been mentioned on here before, and it definitely would have my vote IF (and it's a very big if) a FreeSpace FPS were to come to be.
On a side note Darkplaces is based on Quake 1 not Quake 3, but I believe dp is compatible with the same formats Q3 uses.
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Honestly I don't think Hard-Light has the skilled modder man power to take on a project of the size that seems to be suggested here.
A first person shooter wouldn't be a little side project; unlike a FreeSpace RTS it would require new models, a different engine, and new creative design.
I'm not seeing many animators or CSG mappers putting their hands up here.
I feel the need to again state that Sauerbraten (http://sauerbraten.org/) does not use CSG for maps, and even supports simultaneous co-operative mapping. Tutorial videos here (http://cube.wikispaces.com/Videos). Ease of level editing was one of the main objectives in Sauer and Cube, it has succeeded. It uses Quake 2/3s md2 and md3 model formats. Also supports shaders.
Edit: Sauerbraten is also capable of huge maps. See here (http://eisenstern.com/).
An excellent link from the Sauer wiki, relevant to any project:
How not to start a mod (http://cube.wikispaces.com/How+not+to+start+a+mod)
I take it no one here checked out the heavily modified opensource quake3 engine based game nexuiz. It has shaders and everything else modern found in games. If you go q3 using nexuiz is the way to go.
But, yeah, this mod is so dead.
Nexuiz is built on an engine called Darkplaces. It's been mentioned on here before, and it definitely would have my vote IF (and it's a very big if) a FreeSpace FPS were to come to be.
On a side note Darkplaces is based on Quake 1 not Quake 3, but I believe dp is compatible with the same formats Q3 uses.
AFAICS Darkplaces does not have a terrain system, or a Q3-style patches system.
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new idea: Tracking down a terrorist group. first mission takes place as you board a disabled freighter that tried to run a blockade.
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*takes note of Titan's title*
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We can dream...
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new idea: Tracking down a terrorist group. first mission takes place as you board a disabled freighter that tried to run a blockade.
Originality strikes again. :doubt:
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I cannot be blamed, as that came right off the top of my head.
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So why are they running the blockade? Did they steal plans for a top-secret superweapon?
Hey, maybe they can give the plans to some robots and jettison them in an escape pod. Then, in the next mission, you can go down to the planet and search for them!
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Star Wars. :lol: :nervous: :lol:
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I have a suggestion. Make the missions objective based, not 'King of the Hill/Flag/Prostitute' based.
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Make it sorta like Republic commando, as far as mission design goes.
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No offense or anything...
but Sauerbraten is fugly... and the ability to have multiple levels in that engine is basically a hack
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Titan, you sound like you are proposing a complex, story driven single player game. Not going to happen. The work required for even a single SP level is huge, plus it would need a wide variety of character and scenery models, plus AI, plus the writing and event scripting.
The project needs to get to a useable state as quickly as possible, and then evolve from one usable state to a better usable state in jumps as small and simple as possible. This keeps interest alive, and maximises the chance that at least something useful would be left when the project dies a premature death. Remember that the failure rate on mods is huge. Most never really start. Of those that do, 90% or more die before they're complete. It could conceivably move up to a full single player game, but this is exceptionally unlikely even if it gets off the ground at all.
Suggested plan:
- Start with Vasudan and Terran Marine player models for an existing FPS, as suggested by Galemp.
- We need to make decisions about the behaviour of weapons and the movement of players. Do we want Quake World or Day of Defeat? We can refine later.
- Then we commit to an engine. Player models need to be rigged and animated for this engine. Other models, including weapons, can be represented by place holders. A single test map. A simple classless FFA game mode. If we can't get running around killing things to be fun, the game will suck.
- Shivans! Animating these is going to be fun. Mapping.
- Team FFA. Shivans need to be outnumbered. Mapping.
- Proper weapon models. Mapping.
- Then implement a class system. Also, mapping.
- Then more interesting game modes. Alien versus Predator 2 had some fun modes that had one side as the aggressor, and the other fighting for their lives, precisely the atmosphere we would want. Maps need to support these modes.
- Objective based game play (e.g. the Enemy Territory games, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy siege mode) would be excellent, but would be harder to achieve than any other MP game type. It would require more code for the game type plus more mapping and more event scripting for each map compared to other modes.
- If we get this far, with a good selection of highly polished objective maps, then we can think about SP.
Some of these can be done concurrently, with mappers, modellers and coders working on different bits.
We just need committed and competent mappers, modellers, animators and coders. FSO does not teach people to map, and the animation it may need is very simple.
I can code, and I have experience modding the Quake 3 engined JK:JA (unreleased mod ;) ). Whether I would wish to commit to this project is a different matter, "real life" and all that. Certainly there would need to be a team that looked capable.
No offense or anything...
but Sauerbraten is fugly
Is that fugliness inherent to the engine, or a product of the artwork? The models are almost all very crude, and the textures are often not very good.
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I don't know. But presumably the game should be a showcase of what it's namesake engine is capable of.
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Start with simplicity. Use the original wolfenstein engine and make a lot of mazes. :yes:
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That was a slightly modified Quake 3 engine
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The ORIGINAL Wolfenstein engine.
(http://www.lashorasperdidas.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/wolf3d.jpg)
Kids these days... get off my lawn!
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That was a slightly modified Quake 3 engine
Thought i was proposing q3 again huh :lol:
I guess i should have mentioned DOS along with original. Galemp understood :yes:
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ooooh, wolfenstein. I was watching a show on history about stuff from the 90s, i saw that. then it showed DOOM. then it went to HUMMERs.
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ooooh, wolfenstein. I was watching a show on history about stuff from the 90s, i saw that. then it showed DOOM. then it went to HUMMERs.
Stop making us feel old. :mad:
I remember the then cutting-edge Freescape 3D system used for such games as Castle Master, The Crypt, Driller, and Total Eclipse, available on Amiga, Atari ST, ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64 and eventually the IBM PC and 100% compatibles. On 5.25" floppy disk and cassette.
Now, get off my lawn! :hopping: