Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on April 21, 2008, 06:40:43 am
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper&oref=slogin
Thought it was pretty interesting. Thoughts?
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*starts spreading panic*
I guess here's when the FreeSpace storyline begins - we'll research and start mining, then colonising other planets/moons of our Sol system.
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Well whenever we run out of planet, we can always use your mom as a spare.
Okay, okay, that was a bad joke. Wonder Woman doesn't like it when I do it either.
Seriously though, I'm 3rd all the way. DOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
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Nah, certainly not doom, but our standard of living is going to go way down the drain for about a hundred years until colonies on mars and the moon start thriving.
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To be honest, as has been said before, it's not that we are running amazingly low, it just gets more expensive to get the stuff.
It will eventually get to a saturation point where a company will simply have to accept lower profit ratios if they want to stay in business. I don't doubt they will kick up one hell of a stink about it and try not to, but at the end of the day, that is what it will boil down to.
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There is plenty of oil now.. just not politically correct to extract it. I would like to see some viable alternatives that dont require wasting corn on fuel or anything completely ridiculous like that, without the increase of oil cost at the same time. Alternatives will become viable when the technology is available for cheap deployment, but not at the cost of the economy by artificially inflating oil prices to shift to alternatives. That is foolishness.
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There is plenty of oil now.. just not politically correct to extract it. I would like to see some viable alternatives that dont require wasting corn on fuel or anything completely ridiculous like that, without the increase of oil cost at the same time. Alternatives will become viable when the technology is available for cheap deployment, but not at the cost of the economy by artificially inflating oil prices to shift to alternatives. That is foolishness.
The tech is already out there, oil companies simply don't want to lose control
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Well written article. I liked it and particularly how the three scenarios are played out. A combination 2nd and 3rd scenario seem likely to me. We've spread far and wide across the planet...we can't keep expanding without more planet, another planet, or we simply decline a bit and manage at an acceptable level. Up until the beginning of the 20th century population was relatively stable for a very long time...but in the last 80 or so years we've shot up like a rocket.
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You know what that means.
WE NEED ANOTHER WAR!
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Yeah like that helped the last time :)
Population dipped during the war and then afterwards everyone came home and got to making babies...LOTS of babies.
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There is plenty of oil now.. just not politically correct to extract it.
So you said in another thread, but I asked you where you were getting your info and you didn't answer. If you look at a graph of the number of wells drilled in the US compared with total US oil production, you can see there is a pattern. Read it and weep.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/montequest/Wellsvsoilproduction.jpg)
Also considering that Russia just hit their peak oil production and Mexico's oil production is rapidly declining, I think there is more going on here than just environmental concerns.
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Such as? I don't like where this is going...
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Here's another tidbit: (http://www.energybulletin.net/43048.html)
On April 13, Reuters reported the following from Riyadh:
Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah said he had ordered some new oil discoveries left untapped to preserve oil wealth in the world's top exporter for future generations…
"When there were some new finds, I told them, 'no, leave it in the ground, with grace from god, our children need it'," King Abdullah said…
Saudi production capacity stands at around 11.3 million bpd, and is scheduled to rise to 12.5 million bpd next year.
The King’s remarks seem to confirm a statement made last year by Saudi oil minister Ali al-Naimi who, when asked “How high can your production go?” replied, “We’ll get to 12.5 million barrels a day and then we’ll see.”
If the Saudi announcement was a bombshell, American nearly newspapers ignored it.
Looks like 12.5 mbpd is Saudi Arabia's new ceiling. Below that in the article there are several comments about this by people who know what they are talking about, here's one:
Jeremy Gilbert, BP’s retired chief petroleum engineer:
“I have no idea whether there was a real choice for the Saudis to make. Perhaps it's all 'spin'; perhaps there were discoveries, but there was some property of the reservoirs which made them very difficult to develop, and it made sense to delay development until improved technology or much higher prices arrived; perhaps it's the plain basic truth - a very rare commodity.
“What I do know is that several countries in the Gulf have long chosen to operate their fields with depletion rates far below those that a Western company would consider optimal, or even sensible. Depletion rates of between 1 and 2%/ per year are not uncommon in the United Arab Emirates. Local leaders have repeatedly said that they feel an obligation to preserve some of their natural resources. These feelings must be intensified when their recent production has been sold for US dollars which have depreciated by 25% or more against other strong world currencies over the last four years.
“The countries around the Gulf, which would once have come to the aid of a faltering U.S., now are either delighted about the U.S. plight or just don't care. They are not going to do anything to reduce world oil prices. Instead, they are going to maximize their economic take while minimizing depletion of their sole natural resource.”
So there you have it.
Such as? I don't like where this is going...
Nor should you. Which country do you live in?
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ANWR.
By the way, drilling for more wells doesnt necessarily produce more oil. I can drill an oil well in my backyard. Doesnt mean its going to produce much...
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Ok so how much oil is in ANWR?
EDIT: Here's the best number I could find: 10.3 billion barrels. Seems like a lot, doesn't it? But in reality, it isn't that much.
Repost from another guy on a different board:
Seven to 12 years are estimated to be required from the time of approval to explore and develop ANWR to the first production of oil.
From first production to peak will take 3 to 4 more years where the production rate peaks at .9 million barrels per day.
7-12 years to explore and develop
2025 ANWR produces .9 mbpd of oil
By 2025, the US is projected to consume 30 mbpd at a 1.7% annual growth rate.
In 2025, .9 mbpd is 20% of domestic production but only 3% of US demand.
All that for .9 mbpd, whoopdy do.
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The united
****s states of america. I don't mean to offend anyone by this, mainly just pointing to the last 8 years :(
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There's actually lots of oil stil left. IIRC each well only extracts around 10% of the actual avaliable resources. We just don't have the capability to grab anymore.
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Harry Stamper.........................Where the hell is Harry Stamper?
I'm inclined towards the second explanation with a tinge of the third applied to it........
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There's actually lots of oil stil left. IIRC each well only extracts around 10% of the actual avaliable resources. We just don't have the capability to grab anymore.
Oil production follows a bell curve. As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong on this) peak oil production occurs when most of the light crude oil on the top of the reserve gets sucked out, leaving an increasingly high percentage of heavy, high sulfur, hard to get at oil.
Fact is the production bell curve follows the discovery bell curve. World wide oil discovery peaked in the mid 60's and has been on a major decline ever since, as the following graph shows.
(http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/blogphotos/Blog_Oil_Discovery.jpg)
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/me
/me
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Here is a good idea, since everybody seems to know that we are running out of fuel, why doesnt the government just get rid of all gas taxes? Wouldnt that HELP people by reducing up to .50 off of a gallon of gas?
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It's because they want cash
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Plus
Here is a good idea, since everybody seems to know that we are running out of fuel, why doesnt the government just get rid of all gas taxes? Wouldnt that HELP people by reducing up to .50 off of a gallon of gas?
And once we did that, how could we possibly mitigate our crashing economy and massive debt?
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Altering taxes is not a static table of 'lost' or 'gained' revenue. Most likely the money will be spent encouraging economic activity which will generate more wealth, decrease cost in transportation of goods thereby lowering overall cost of consumer goods. Just like raising taxes does not equal X amount of dollars. It discourages economic growth and lowers tax revenue in other sectors.
I'll have you know that as a result of the Bush tax cuts that were supposed to take away billions from the overall bottom line resulting in record tax receipts in 2006. Its really not about getting more revenue, its all about control of your money.
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Here is a good idea, since everybody seems to know that we are running out of fuel, why doesnt the government just get rid of all gas taxes? Wouldnt that HELP people by reducing up to .50 off of a gallon of gas?
Because 1.) The federal (and probably state) gas taxes go towards highway and road maintenance respctively. The federal highway trust fund is already expected to be bankrupt within the next 10 years, getting rid of all the gas taxes will make that happen within the next year or so. Once that happens highways start falling into disrepair and America's precious trucking system will no longer be able to deliver goods as effectively as before, if at all. Goodbye 3000 mile ceaser salad.
2.) Also because it does nothing to solve the fundemental problem that era cheap energy for transportation is coming to an end.
It's this kind of short sightedness that got us into this mess in the first place.
I'll have you know that as a result of the Bush tax cuts that were supposed to take away billions from the overall bottom line resulting in record tax receipts in 2006. Its really not about getting more revenue, its all about control of your money.
And we are still waiting for those mythical budget surpluses that were promised. That $9.4+ trillion debt is going to have to be paid back, and it will be in the form of higher taxes.
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Why higher taxes? Why not.. reduced spending? And dont tell me the war is causing the debt.. there is a 3 trillion dollar budget, in which the highest percentage of it goes towards medicare, social security, and other social programs. About 600 billion goes towards the defense departments annual budget and the war combined.
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The war is part of the debt. Don't let the official number fool you, because of accounting tricks the real costs of the war and the military itself are much higher, more like $1 trillion. Social security has actually kept the official debt down because the trust fund has been raided over and over again in the last 30 years. Touching Medicare and Social Security is political suicide for anyone, don't forget the largest voting block are old people, and in a democracy such a powerful voice cannot be ignored. So neither of those programs are going anywhere.
In any case I never suggested higher taxes, although that may inevitably come given the magnitude of our debt, and also the need to maintain the infrastructure we so often enjoy.
EDIT: And government debt isn't the only debt problem, private debt has also reached unbelievably high numbers. Total debt, both public and private, is somewhere in the vicinity of $44 trillion. With such a leveraged economy it's a wonder we made it this far without our credit system crapping out.
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Well i can comment on this since my country is dependant in one form or another to gas imports from Russia. sure it may not be Oil but its and increasing demand for natural resources that has led my country to buy gas at the most high price in europe (well that an poor diplomatic skills) .
However when we look past this we see something else that is happening. And that is increasing development of alternatives to both OIL and natural gasses. Mainly biodiesel and other such alternatives.
One such alternative is nuclear power. And my country has already to my knoledge agreed to some very high spending for our economy for the future development of new reactors at our nuclear powerplant from 2 to 4 nuclear reactors. Also plans are being made for a second nuclear powerplant to be constructed. When all of these are completed they should reduce the overall countrys dependance on fosil fuels and natural gasses.
This is something that is considered a viable alternative towards energy production in many countries rich or poor.
And with the price on oil increasing more and more it is becoming more and more difficult for countries such as mine to keep the prices at a decent lvl.
Hell prices here have rocketed and public debt along with them.
as for reaching the limits of our planet in terms of available land well i don't actualy think that is true since some study showed that you could fit the entire world population on a continent such as North America . Don't know how true is that but one has to wonder .
The bottom line is that our planet is not reaching its limits in most areas its just reaching its limits when considering the way we make use of it. With more proper management and waste managements huge portions of land could be salvaged and reclaimed.
As for the reserve of fossil fuels well they no longer represent the future . In fact more and more country's are investing huge amounts of money in new technologies for both cars and not just cars.
Electric cars have begun to develop at an increasing rate and have become far cheaper then before. The performance of these cars ha also increased in huge leaps. Hell there are some electric cars out there that can outperform a Lambo . The range is not yet as intended but that will change with the development of new tech for the powercells.
The alternatives to fossil fuels just have to become as profitable as fossil fuels and then we will see companies investing more and more into such alternatives. Basic what we have now is a low margin of profit for tehse alternatives and the big companies are not about to loose they huge profits just because our planet is on the brink of ecological colapse or other reasons like that.
Sorry for the spelling.
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One such alternative is nuclear power. And my country has already to my knoledge agreed to some very high spending for our economy for the future development of new reactors at our nuclear powerplant from 2 to 4 nuclear reactors. Also plans are being made for a second nuclear powerplant to be constructed. When all of these are completed they should reduce the overall countrys dependance on fosil fuels and natural gasses.
Nukes are a great alternative to coal, but I'm not going to drive a nuclear powered car. :p
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Want more oil and natural gas? Start bothering AK :yes:
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Nukes are a great alternative to coal, but I'm not going to drive a nuclear powered car. :p
According to Back To The Future 2, we should have "Mr Fusion" in 7 years or earlier.. ;7 :yes:
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One such alternative is nuclear power. And my country has already to my knoledge agreed to some very high spending for our economy for the future development of new reactors at our nuclear powerplant from 2 to 4 nuclear reactors. Also plans are being made for a second nuclear powerplant to be constructed. When all of these are completed they should reduce the overall countrys dependance on fosil fuels and natural gasses.
Nukes are a great alternative to coal, but I'm not going to drive a nuclear powered car. :p
It's nice that someone actually pointed out that rather big flag in nuclear power. Main power production is all well and good, but what about the smaller things?
But then there's the bigger picture we must consider: Nuclear power is all well and good, but it ain't our salvation. Not by a long shot. Consider that nuclear power plants produce 75% as much pollution as a coal-fired plant. Consider the cost in terms of fossil fuel it takes to gather the resources to construct the plant, actually construct it, keep it running, and ultimately decommission it. Consider that these new power sources need fossil fuels to get up and running. It's the same problem with hydrogen. Using hydrogen is all well and good, but there aren't exactly great massive hydrogen deposits sitting underground waiting to be exploited. Fossil fuels are so ingrained into our technology and even our society that we're going to seriously struggle to tone it down, let alone cut it out completely when
It all comes down to our - by which I mean the West - post-industrial consumerist lifestyles. It's kind of nice now, but we're ****ed in a few decades. Like, truly ****ed. Seriously. We're talking nymphomaniac on her wedding night after having just found out she has one week to live ****ed. Live the dream now, because we'll be living a nightmare come 50 years time. And it's we the middle-class that'll be hit hardest.
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Consider that nuclear power plants produce 75% as much pollution as a coal-fired plant
It isn't carbon free, but it spews way less carbon during its lifetime than that. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it takes about the same amount of carbon to mine and transport the fuel, and build the plant (ok, maybe nuclear requires slightly more because the structures are heavier, but still). Coal plants need to be decomissioned too, although granted it takes a much longer period of time to decommission a nuke plant.
It's the same problem with hydrogen. Using hydrogen is all well and good, but there aren't exactly great massive hydrogen deposits sitting underground waiting to be exploited.
Well there are enormous amounts of hydrogen in the atmosphere of Jupiter and (maybe) Saturn, but a more practical short term solution is this, and I think it shows some promise. (http://inderscience.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,3,8;journal,1,2;linkingpublicationresults,1:120118,1)
It all comes down to our - by which I mean the West - post-industrial consumerist lifestyles. It's kind of nice now, but we're ****ed in a few decades. Like, truly ****ed. Seriously. We're talking nymphomaniac on her wedding night after having just found out she has one week to live ****ed. Live the dream now, because we'll be living a nightmare come 50 years time. And it's we the middle-class that'll be hit hardest.
Western europe was smart enough to invest in large scale, world class intra and inter city public transportation, more efficient private transportation, and (correct me if I'm wrong) but in general relatively high density communities. All of these give Europe a significant amount of lead time to deal with it.
America on the other hand invested in the low density suburban communities that are many miles away from the nearest supermarket and even more miles away from your place of employment, as well as private transportation, a trucking system, and large, wasteful vehicles.
So with that in mind, suburban america will by far be more ****ed than anyone else. Personally I think that in the next 20 years the american suburban lifestyle as we know it will be extinct. Kunstler may very well be right when he predicts the suburbs of America will be the dysfunctional slums of the future.
EDIT: Also something of note: More than half of the American population lives in the suburbs. All of them will be seriously hurt by this. Is this a recipe for disaster or what?
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Yay us!
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Paolo Soleri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Soleri) had the right idea. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology)
/architect
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Paolo Soleri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Soleri) had the right idea. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcology)
/architect
Yeah, but if we build a lot of them, they'll all blow up in 2051.
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:lol:
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I am so glad someone got that reference. :)
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Are you kidding? Everything I know about urban planning I learned from Will Wright. Like how to build your coal power plants on your borders downwind so your neighbors get all the pollution. :nervous:
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Arcologies are unamerican :p
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Actualy the most hard hit wont be the middle class but the poor ppl who are strgling to get by every day life. When prices explode tehre will be the poor who will go right down under and dies from starvation and diseases and there will be the middle class who will get a toughr lifestyle but a life nevertheless. And there will be the rich who will get even more wealthy. It's a fact of life and capitalism.
On the other had i do agree about the american infrastructure sistem. Damn i can even imagine driving a few hours to get to work. In fact Europe has the only viable trasport solution along with maybe Japan that is based upon the railway sistem. Mainly the highspeed railroad sitem that is curently expanding in the EU .
Also Europe has investe a HUGE amount of money compared to others such as the US and Russia into the development of new technologies to make better use of alternative fuels and new power generating technologies.
In fact a few days ago i believe there was this thing on TV with the EU comission stating that by the 20something anyway near uture very near future almost 1/3rd of the EU fuel and energy consumption must be assured form alternative sources. And that is not a sugestion but a law kinda that is already through various stages of implementation in the EU.
Also wars for fuel are already beeing faught. The latest is the war in Irak. Others will soon follow. (this is my personal opinion however and should be taken as a real life reality if you so choose. In short make your own damn mind about why that war is being held. )
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Actualy the most hard hit wont be the middle class but the poor ppl who are strgling to get by every day life.
They're already used to it, The elitists will have contingencies in effect...
The median folk will have the rug pulled out from under them...........
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So basicly if the poor are used to a rough life it doesnt reali matter if they get more **** dumped on them?
Sc**w the middle class and the elitists poor lil old them. what they will have to get used to using just one car instead of 2? I dont think ppl here actualy realize that more then half the earths population is living (barely God knows how) at the very edge of extreme poverty. One the sh*t hit the fan the garbage dumps wont be filled with garbage but with bodies because the poor ol' middle class and elitists wont be happy with giving money towards burning the bodies. Oh and dont tell me that isnt so . Anyone remember Somalia???? And not just Somalia.
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I dont think you realize that the people who get screwed the most in the US are the middle class. If you are poor you have access to untold numbers of benefits including welfare, healthcare, housing, college, food stamps, virtually no taxes. If you are middle class you have to figure out how to afford to send your kids to college @ 10-20k a year minimum, pay the +20% income tax, and have virtually no access to any government services. And you know what pays for the poor people? The rich and upper middle class. They pay 35% income tax plus countless other taxes on the vast amounts of money they spend on their lifestyles.
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So basicly the world would be better of without all of the poor ppl. Heres an idea why not gather them all up in say......dont know Siberia or antarctica then nuke em all to death so that the middle class and rick ppl can have it a lil better.
Man and i believed Hitler was bad. So how this way of viewing things any different from the way hitler viewed all non arian ppl? No really one has to wonder the circumstances may differ but there is still the same line of speach .
Oh yeah and the US citizen would be wise to question the multi trilion of dollars spent on weapons development instead of the actual "benefits" of the poor ppl. Oh yeah and perhaps in a utopian civilization that you live in poor ppl actualy get the proper healthcare houses and stuff but down here in the real world things dont actualy go that way. Dont believe me? For the love of god please go to any poor region of the world hell take a look in the slums of your country and tell me what you see.
Oh yeah and dificult as it may be to send theyr kids to college the middle class at least can think about that while the poor man actualy has to think if hes not gonna starve tomorrow.
Oh yeah and before you start bashing me all over i am one of the ppl that saw first hand how the porr are treated. Hell i dont consider miself a middle class even. Since i can barely just barely manage to keep myself in college. And if it wasnt for important support form the parents....welll.....i dont even wanna go there.
As for the health care...well i can barely get any decent healthcare when i do pay i dont even wanna try and explain what the options are for those that cant afford to pay.
Oh yeah and if the poor ppl are such a burden and you cant (yet) use them for target practice during the weekends family out at the shooting range , then do something about it. the US (suposedly) has a gouverment by the ppl for the ppl and something like that doesnt it? The US gouverment brags about beeing in service to the ppl or something like that. So why dont you just petition them to diver some money from weapons development to actualy creating more jobs for the poor or decreasing the amount of taxes you have to pay.
Of course some of the ppl here are gonna get mad with me i dont blame them but i do believe im beeing correct in my statements. More and more we see the gouverments investing more and more into the discovery of new fuel deposits. Yet not even a fraction of that time and money is invested into actualy developing alternatives to fosil fuels which we all see are getting more and more expensive.
So then whats the use? Well i for one have no idea since by now we should of been able to come up with a viable alternative to fossil fuels if we actualy wanted. Wel not me and you perhaps but you know what i mean.
Oh yeah as a side not there was this story on TV about this scientist that worked on a new type of engine that uses something else other then oil. He did come up with something is used water of all things . As i understood it he was working on this for more then 15 or 20 years cant remember.
IT wasnt as fast or as small as modern day sosil fuel engine but the basis was there to be developed. Never heard anithing on the subject untill this day. Perhaps he gave up perhaps it wasnt working properly or perhaps he steped on some toes. I prefere the last one. since too many similar techs that were at one time working and could of been perfected have since then been deemed all of a sudden unreliable or too expensive.
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No basically the US governement would be better off with a slightly more libertarian style.
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No basically the US governement would be better off with a slightly more libertarian style.
Yep, social darwinism is back in vogue. :rolleyes:
Seriously though if there is any kind of welfare the government should get rid of it's the corperate welfare.
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Seriously though if there is any kind of welfare the government should get rid of it's the corperate welfare.
And then pump the money they save into education.
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I think we need a large asteroid to hit Earth... :eek2: :nervous:
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I dont think you realize that the people who get screwed the most in the US are the middle class. If you are poor you have access to untold numbers of benefits including welfare, healthcare, housing, college, food stamps, virtually no taxes. If you are middle class you have to figure out how to afford to send your kids to college @ 10-20k a year minimum, pay the +20% income tax, and have virtually no access to any government services. And you know what pays for the poor people? The rich and upper middle class. They pay 35% income tax plus countless other taxes on the vast amounts of money they spend on their lifestyles.
Seconded :yes:
Oh yeah and the US citizen would be wise to question the multi trilion of dollars spent on weapons development instead of the actual "benefits" of the poor ppl.
We do question the way our current president is handling money. He sucks at it.
Oh yeah and perhaps in a utopian civilization that you live in poor ppl actualy get the proper healthcare houses and stuff but down here in the real world things dont actualy go that way. Dont believe me? For the love of god please go to any poor region of the world hell take a look in the slums of your country and tell me what you see.
Nothings utopian over here. Yes poor people over here do get services. And sometimes the services provided for the poor over here leads to people abusing those services so they don't have to work and get a free ride. As far as that goes, even with services, we still have homeless and other kinds of poor people like in other countries around the world.
Oh yeah and dificult as it may be to send theyr kids to college the middle class at least can think about that while the poor man actualy has to think if hes not gonna starve tomorrow.
Different classes of people have different wants, needs, and dreams. In this case, middle class finding a way to be able to send their kid to college, and a poor person finding a way they can get food the next day are both difficult tasks. Different classes of people worry about different stuff, it doesn't mean ones difficult and the others not.
Oh yeah and before you start bashing me all over i am one of the ppl that saw first hand how the porr are treated. Hell i dont consider miself a middle class even. Since i can barely just barely manage to keep myself in college. And if it wasnt for important support form the parents....welll.....i dont even wanna go there.
Yes i've seen poor people treated poorly too. I just made a funny :lol: On the serious side of poor people treatment is that life really is very rough for them....
...but not for you
WELCOME TO MIDDLE CLASS :yes: The fact that you're in college and having a hard time staying in there means you're just like the other middle class struggling with college, but ultimately being able to go to college (or the hard time staying there is because it's hard to keep yourself from dropping out?). Support from middle classed parents, yup, that's what keeps me going to my campus too. It's not easy keeping up with loans, payments, and parents money, but we do. You consider yourself not middle class even though you are...you are in denial :yes:
As for the health care...well i can barely get any decent healthcare when i do pay i dont even wanna try and explain what the options are for those that cant afford to pay.
:nervous: You're in denial that you have good health care since you do pay for it and don't have those alternatives you wouldn't speak about for those who can't pay for health care.
My your unappreciative :eek:
Oh yeah and if the poor ppl are such a burden and you cant (yet) use them for target practice during the weekends family out at the shooting range , then do something about it.
:wtf: The person i quoted wants this to happen.
the US (suposedly) has a gouverment by the ppl for the ppl and something like that doesnt it? The US gouverment brags about beeing in service to the ppl or something like that. So why dont you just petition them to diver some money from weapons development to actualy creating more jobs for the poor or decreasing the amount of taxes you have to pay.
There's many jobs available and also many people getting laid off as well.
The US government. Made for the people by the people, why yes you have that right. But, you also fail to consider that my government is a democracy where majority rules. The difference in this democracy is that the majority rules, and the minority doesn't get forgotten or neglected. It's one reason why poor people and old folk and different minorities of people get access to specific services. And decreasing the amount of taxes a populace pays to it's government is not bright idea. I guess some just don't care about the fire department, clean water, electricity, mail, police, doctors, hospitals, etc (general services that taxes support...it's an incomplete list).
More and more we see the gouverments investing more and more into the discovery of new fuel deposits. Yet not even a fraction of that time and money is invested into actualy developing alternatives to fosil fuels which we all see are getting more and more expensive.
Governments actually are researching fuel alternatives. Biodiesel and ethanol are renewable. Natural gas is gaining popularity and is also an alternative to petroleum. And don't forget hydrogen and electricity (don't forget fuel cells either). There are hydrogen cars, but they're still prototypes. Currently scientists are also looking for ways to more easily procure hydrogen also. Yes the fruits of investing in alternatives to petroleum is going great.
So then whats the use? Well i for one have no idea since by now we should of been able to come up with a viable alternative to fossil fuels if we actualy wanted. Wel not me and you perhaps but you know what i mean.
There is alternatives. I just mentioned them ;)
Oh yeah as a side not there was this story on TV about this scientist that worked on a new type of engine that uses something else other then oil. He did come up with something is used water of all things . As i understood it he was working on this for more then 15 or 20 years cant remember.
You're talking about a hydrogen engine. Water because the engine derives hydrogen for water, and also the output of such an engine is moisture.
IT wasnt as fast or as small as modern day sosil fuel engine but the basis was there to be developed. Never heard anithing on the subject untill this day. Perhaps he gave up perhaps it wasnt working properly or perhaps he steped on some toes. I prefere the last one. since too many similar techs that were at one time working and could of been perfected have since then been deemed all of a sudden unreliable or too expensive.
It was developed, exists, and still being worked on. The idea for fuel dependency is that you take it in stages. Find renewable alternatives to your existing fuels first. Then, when hydrogen cars actually go on the market for people to buy in the future, people will for once be able to buy and drive something that's not petrol, biodiesel, ethanol, or biobutanol powered. The last part of transition is when people actually stop using petrol powered cars because everyones going to be buying hydrogen because it'll be the new hip and cool thing to do. You won't want to be the last person on the block in your neighborhood still using petrol now do you? But, you're too dumb to figure out that getting hydrogen cars and renewable fuel sources doesn't happen in a day. The whole auto-industry, petroleum companies, and governments needing to make this stuff happen along with scientists. Not to mention transitioning people to different fuel sources and completely different cars (the hydrogen ones). It's going to take many years.
Of course some of the ppl here are gonna get mad with me i dont blame them but i do believe im beeing correct in my statements.
Your ineptitude leaves you middle classed among other "****astitical incorectities" :yes:
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Whoaaa. I always thought companys like Dassault and BAE developed weapons, not governments and Why?¿¿? Oh why can't i shoot poor people at the weekend yet? <(hopefully)obvious sarcasm>
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Governments actually are researching fuel alternatives.
The US government knew something like this was going to happen for 30 years and did NOTHING to prepare for it. The last presidency to really take the problem of oil dependency as seriously as needed was Carter. I don't think alternative fuels are enough for the US.
Why is the US trying so hard to preserve a wasteful and inefficient lifestyle?
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The US demands petrol simply enough. It's what happens when you're the country on the face of the earth who consumes it the most. Everyone in america knew something like this was going to happen for at least 30 years. Especially when south america stopped getting petrol to america back in the day. There was a gas shortage then and i'm sure people were thinking about alternatives, while others were still driving when and where they could some how.
Alternative fuels aren't enough for the US. That's why the whole petrol, renewable fuels, and hydrogen sounds like one obvious transition plan to me. And one hell of a transition plan for america at the beginning of the new millenium. At least Bush was saying we need to find other sources of fuel to end America's dependence on petrol. Since then car manufacturers were majorly pestered to raise the mpg rate in new cars and hydrogen car research has taken a new note over here with drivable prototypes.
But, transition from one fuel source to another is very hard. Considering that most people on the roads over here are driving 5+ years or older cars on the roads because there affordable cars, and only the rich by the very new ones. Which means most americans are still driving 1990's gas guzzlers. Which also means gas consumption is still currently going to be high. Transition to renewable fuel sources is a good thing, but yes, it won't be enough to handle the problem until there's more and more exporters of renewable fuels to match and substitute the american petrol consumption.
Governments actually are researching fuel alternatives.
Why is the US trying so hard to preserve a wasteful and inefficient lifestyle?
Because it's easy to keep ones habits and never change them. Many americans keep driving their old cars because their old cars became part of their habit. It's easy to keep that car you've owned for the past 10 or more years and keep driving and filling it up non stop. While driving and filling up the old car non stop, americans will complain about how many times a week they need to fill up as they complain about the rising prices. Reminds me of my mom. She drives a 1996 van that gets 21mpg. She literally deludes herself by convincing herself how the van is so handy and how it pays for itself. When in reality in todays day age, she pays a looooot for gas while there's other cars that get twice the mpg compared to her van. The other thing is that she doesn't use the van properly. She absolutely loves how spacious it is, but in reality she doesn't utilize the space. She drives by herself most of the time and 90% of the time with no cargo to utilize it's spacious interior. The van is a waste of money for her unfortunately, and she should just get a small 4 door which she won't be paying out the ass for gas. Other things she could try doing is start riding a bike to the half a mile away bank, and use public transportation for farther distances. Hell, if other americans did this, they'd save soo much money, and the fuel crisis wouldn't be so bad. But, like the american international debt, is it going to be handled soon? No, and most likely not even happen at all.
I myself don't drive a car. I like my money :yes:
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Well there you have it. Cuz you see while the US still has the luxury of ridiculous high fuel consumption cars the EU and many other places such as Japan an not just Japan can not afford this. And the EU is the second biggest economy in the world. America has its prototipes while the EU , Japan and others have already started using cars that are either hybrids or run of hidrogen or electicity or alternatives to fossil fuels altoghether. Hell the investments in this secotr have been huge compared to what the US has invested. As an example 90% if not more of the taxi's in my hometown run of natural gas or other alternatives to oil . Altough biodiesel has only started taking off about 3 years ago and mostly for the companies that have tractortrailers busineses which do tranport of good and stuff across the country or europe.
Hell there is more lan cultivated with plants from which to produce byofuels then there is land used for corn production. Why?
Because it is economicly viable. Oh yeah and the EU actualy supports such endeavours.
Oh yeah and if i wanted to be insulted i would of gone to a second rate bar and stood at the bar while ordering some pisspoor beer.
And for the record my statement about healtcare wasnt meant to emphasize the fact that i have choice since i really don't. It was to state that even with money you cant get proper healthcare then what about the ppl who dont pay up? Are you honestly so deluded that you imagine they get some sort of real medical care?
As for the shoot them up in your family outing i was refering to the way poor ppl are regarded by some of the individuals here. not so long ago another idividual managed to get a nation fired up about how they viewd some ppl. And we all know what happened. Im just calling you nazis to make it short. Now does it become clear?
Not all of the ppl here just a few of them which have expresed a sort of "blame the poor cuz i have to pay high taxes" mentality. When in reality it should of been more like blame the idiots in office for me having to pay more taxes. And the idiots in office are rich and are put there by even more rich ppl.
Wanna blame someone? Blame the corporations for not droping the prices down cuz it affect theyr profit margin from a 40 or 50% profit margin to lets say 20%? OMG whjat an unthincable thing the corporations could they actualy be making life harder for ppl? No they cant could they? since well they dont care about profit or stuff like that do they?
Tell me does anyone know just how much money or rather how much of the country's debt is related to corporate loans taxe evasion taxcuts in order to further promote (increase profit) one thing or another???
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renewable fuels
Such as?
hydrogen
Where are you going to get that from?
But anyway, what if this combination isn't enough?
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well i dont know perhaps hidrogen beeing such a rare element to begin with would be a very hard thing to obtain. Especialy since well how should i put this....err......water has hidrogen you know H2o with emphasis on H2 . Youre actualy telling me that the most common element in the universe can not be obtained?
Isnt enough? Whats not enough? Dude BMW has prototype sport cars that do 300 km /h on hidrogen engines. Get a grip of reality .
Honda has production lines that spwe out hidrogen electric and hibrid powered cars. And not just Honda. Renault is mass producing cars with engines that run on bioethanol ro something like that. Biodiesel is also a production run for some european companies well actualy biodiesel engines.
sure for some ppl this wont be enough. I say let them live in theyr own stupidty and choke to death. Or better yet force them to use just conventional 100 l/100km cars . Let them die in theyr own car exausts. Oh yeah and let them face the ever growing price of oil . They deserve it. They want it so bad ? Oki then.
I for one am not an ecologist or anithing like that but im not the one to choose outrageous consumption just because im used to it. The cleaner the car and the more performance it can give out the better.
If it can run at 0-100 in 8 sec and burn up just 4l/100 km thats great . First and foremost i think of my poket and my well beeing. And in a city where cars are becoming ever present exaust fumes and stuff like that can really get to you.
I'm not stating that everione shoul buy fiat500 or something like that im just stating that ppl should become more aware of the suroundings and stop behaving like its not they problem.
The rise in oil price does not affect just the money you spend at the gas station to fill up the gastank it also affect the rpice of food electricity etc etc.
That is why im advocating for increase spending towards other cheaper energy sources. such as nuclear power (in the short term) . sure we wont be able to solve the problems over night but if we stay pigheaded and blame it all on the poor on microsh** or god knows who (even if we are correct about it) nothing is gonna get done.
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By the way, oil is now past $120 per barrel.
well i dont know perhaps hidrogen beeing such a rare element to begin with would be a very hard thing to obtain. Especialy since well how should i put this....err......water has hidrogen you know H2o with emphasis on H2 . Youre actualy telling me that the most common element in the universe can not be obtained?
It isn't rare, but rather it is locked up in other molecules such as water.
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Which (I believe Kosh was inferring) requires energy to extract, which (currently) comes from coal, oil, and uranium none of which are renewable.
But lets say that somehow, magically, the entire world covers itself in solar cells (or something)
It's still not renewable because you need some sort of materials to make the solar cells
No, the best way to (at the very least) curtail the problem is by changing the US (and other pork farms) cultures.
I doubt very much it's because the US's population is just downright stupider than other human populations, I think it's just because people in general are like goldfish, you give them too much food and they'll eat until they die.
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well i dont know perhaps hidrogen beeing such a rare element to begin with would be a very hard thing to obtain. Especialy since well how should i put this....err......water has hidrogen you know H2o with emphasis on H2 . Youre actualy telling me that the most common element in the universe can not be obtained?
Not telling you it can't be obtained. It's just hard splitting hydrogen off from other molecules such as oxygen in water. Procuring hydrogen isn't easy, even though hydrogen is plentiful.
Isnt enough? Whats not enough? Dude BMW has prototype sport cars that do 300 km /h on hidrogen engines. Get a grip of reality .
Honda has production lines that spwe out hidrogen electric and hibrid powered cars. And not just Honda. Renault is mass producing cars with engines that run on bioethanol ro something like that. Biodiesel is also a production run for some european companies well actualy biodiesel engines.
So does the american company ford spew out hydrogen and hybrid cars from their assembly lines. As well as other car companies. It's in their best interests to do so. Hydrogen cars have slowly been introduced over here and are no longer prototypes. And there's plenty of hybrid cars in the market here too, some electric even. America is not separated from the rest of the worlds cars or car companies. If you're a car company and you manage to sell cars in america, then you'll be making big bucks. America is a great place for business. It's still going to be a while before hydrogen, hybrid, and fully electric get cheap enough for everyone to afford.
sure for some ppl this wont be enough. I say let them live in theyr own stupidty and choke to death. Or better yet force them to use just conventional 100 l/100km cars . Let them die in theyr own car exausts. Oh yeah and let them face the ever growing price of oil . They deserve it. They want it so bad ? Oki then.
You're middle classed and therefore will join them?
If it can run at 0-100 in 8 sec and burn up just 4l/100 km thats great . First and foremost i think of my poket and my well beeing. And in a city where cars are becoming ever present exaust fumes and stuff like that can really get to you.
sure for some ppl this wont be enough. I say let them live in theyr own stupidty and choke to death. Or better yet force them to use just conventional 100 l/100km cars . Let them die in theyr own car exausts. Oh yeah and let them face the ever growing price of oil . They deserve it. They want it so bad ? Oki then.
So you will join them.
I'm not stating that everione shoul buy fiat500 or something like that im just stating that ppl should become more aware of the suroundings and stop behaving like its not they problem.
The rise in oil price does not affect just the money you spend at the gas station to fill up the gastank it also affect the rpice of food electricity etc etc.
That is why im advocating for increase spending towards other cheaper energy sources. such as nuclear power (in the short term) . sure we wont be able to solve the problems over night but if we stay pigheaded and blame it all on the poor on microsh** or god knows who (even if we are correct about it) nothing is gonna get done.
Sounds good :yes:
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Hydrogen cars have slowly been introduced over here and are no longer prototypes
Where do you live?
and a better question is how do these cars refuel?
When people say the US can simply transition into a renewable fuel (hydrogen, bio, whatever) forget the massive infrastructure investments and possibly even subsidies that have to be made to make it even remotely feasible. The American Suburban Lifestyle TM could not have happened if it wasn't for cheap transportation fuel in the form of cheap oil, and it will not be able to continue unless fuel remains cheap, something that won't happen. America has invested so much of its wealth in suburbia that such a massive misallocation of resources would have detrimental effects once this living arrangement becomes economically impossible to maintain.
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I was refering to Europe. hidrogen cars are beeing used. And there are special pomps at fule staions across europe most of them in germany where you can refuel your car .
Also an icreasing demans is made on the large oil corporations to put on theyr fuelstations electric hdrogen and bio fuel pumps.
And wheather they like it or not they have to do so since its EU regulations that force them to do so.
They dont really have a choice.
Regarding the suburban lifestyle in the US im wondering when or rather how hard will the US society e hit when cheap oil wont be available to them anymore. Dont know how they can keep the price down as it is.
Anyway any ill effect that will have on the lifestyle they deserve it since the choice they made was theyr own. Noone forced them to do so. They made an educated guess or rather not an educated guess since they did not really care about the consequences since they firmly believed the gouverment would find them new cheap oil either by inventing some new reasons to bomb a few oil rich countries or whatever.
Be that as it may i still ca not fully blame the american society since well the leaders are the one most at fault folowed closely by the society.
They should of known better . Oil wasnt suposed to last forever.
Also since Europa has faced deminishing oil reserves for almost a century now its only natural that europe would invest the most in other fuel develpment tech. and stuff like that.
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We have a lot of local oil too. Alaska supplies a lot of oil to the rest of the US....just an example.
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We have a lot of local oil too. Alaska supplies a lot of oil to the rest of the US....just an example.
Alaskan oil fields have been in decline for a couple of decades now.
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Yeah i know, the alaskan fields kick ass that much and still do. They're still pumping out oil :yes: We also have a field of natural gas up here.