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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: ssmit132 on August 10, 2008, 04:32:57 am

Title: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: ssmit132 on August 10, 2008, 04:32:57 am
Quote from: From Wikipedia page on ITER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER)
Bridget Woodman of Greenpeace said "Pursuing nuclear fusion and the ITER project is madness. Nuclear fusion has all the problems of nuclear power, including producing nuclear waste and the risks of a nuclear accident." "Governments should not waste our money on a dangerous toy which will never deliver any useful energy," said Jan Vande Putte of Greenpeace International. "Instead, they should invest in renewable energy which is abundantly available, not in 2080 but today."

French environmental groups said the project ITER, was "dangerous", "costly", and "not a job generator". A French association including about 700 anti-nuclear groups, Sortir du nucléaire (Get Out of Nuclear Energy), also claimed that ITER was a hazard because scientists did not yet know how to manipulate the high-energy deuterium and tritium hydrogen isotopes used in the fusion process.

The ITER project confronts numerous technically challenging issues. French physicist Sébastien Balibar, director of research at the CNRS said We say that we will put the sun into a box. The idea is pretty. The problem is, we don't know how to make the box.

A technical concern is that the 14 MeV neutrons produced by the fusion reactions will damage the materials from which the reactor is built. Research is in progress at IFMIF to determine how and/or if reactor walls can be designed to last long enough to make a commercial power plant economically viable in the presence of the intense neutron bombardment. The damage is primarily caused by high energy neutrons knocking atoms out of their normal position in the crystal lattice. A related problem for a future commercial fusion power plant is that the neutron bombardment will induce radioactivity in the reactor itself. Maintaining and decommissioning a commercial reactor may thus be difficult and expensive. Another problem is that superconducting magnets are damaged by neutron fluxes.

Rebecca Harms, Green/EFA member of the European Parliament's Committee on Industry, Research and Energy, said: "In the next 50 years nuclear fusion will neither tackle climate change nor guarantee the security of our energy supply." Arguing that the EU's energy research should be focused elsewhere, she said: "The Green/EFA group demands that these funds be spent instead on energy research that is relevant to the future. A major focus should now be put on renewable sources of energy." French Green party lawmaker Noël Mamère claims that more concrete efforts to fight present-day global warming will be neglected as a result of ITER: "This is not good news for the fight against the greenhouse effect because we're going to put ten billion euros towards a project that has a term of 30-50 years when we're not even sure it will be effective."

A number of fusion researchers working on non-tokamak systems, such as Robert Bussard and Eric Lerner, have been critical of ITER for diverting funding that they believe could be used for their potentially more reasonable and/or cost effective fusion power plant designs. Criticisms levied often revolve around claims of the unwillingness by ITER researchers to face up to potential problems (both technical and economic) due to the dependence of their jobs on the continuation of tokamak research. An informal overview of the last decade of work was presented at the 57th International Astronautical Congress in October 2006.

I know that Greenpeace and other environmental groups are trying to save the planet, and I commend them for that, but I find it annoying that they think a FUSION reactor is as dangerous as a fission reactor. The only by-product from a fusion reactor is helium. Aren't they supposed to be much safer?

(Unless the tritium leaks out, and I'm sure that's not as bad as uranium and stuff.)

EDIT: From their website,

Quote from: Greenpeace (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/press/releases/ITERprojectFrance)
Fusion energy - if it would ever operate - would create a serious waste problem, would emit large amounts of radioactive material and could be used to produce materials for nuclear weapons. A whole new set of nuclear risks would thus be created.

 :wtf:
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Flipside on August 10, 2008, 04:41:48 am
I think it depends how 'clean' the reaction is. From what I understand, the only residue from Fission in an ideal situation is water, or possibly hydrogen, but possibly 100% efficiency is impossible in the reactions? I'm more guessing than anything else to be honest.

That said, I'm not certain about the concept of neutrons knocking down a building, if these things can take out high-density concrete, then I'm somewhat concerned what they would do to organic matter, and if that were the case, then why is Fusion the Shangri-la of power-creation. I think there might be more to it than is being argued there.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 10, 2008, 04:45:07 am
If Total Annihilation taught me anything growing up. . .it's that one reactor is better than six-hundred solar panels. As long as no pesky Core get near it.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Flipside on August 10, 2008, 04:46:58 am
Well, I haven't played TA, but a sniper cordon usually helps ;)

Though I'll agree, what we need is not to build a Tech 1 blob, but upgrade the stuff we have to Tech 3.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: ssmit132 on August 10, 2008, 04:54:24 am
I think it depends how 'clean' the reaction is. From what I understand, the only residue from Fission in an ideal situation is water, or possibly hydrogen, but possibly 100% efficiency is impossible in the reactions? I'm more guessing than anything else to be honest.

That said, I'm not certain about the concept of neutrons knocking down a building, if these things can take out high-density concrete, then I'm somewhat concerned what they would do to organic matter, and if that were the case, then why is Fusion the Shangri-la of power-creation. I think there might be more to it than is being argued there.

There's already neutron bombs available, and they're designed to take out organic matter only.

I still want to know how Greenpeace came about with the quote, though. Unless you can make nukes out of helium, which is already available anyway and so if it's possible is not a new risk anyway. Fusion bombs? Could they use the by-products produced?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Snail on August 10, 2008, 05:05:55 am
What's the most wasteful energy production method ever?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: ssmit132 on August 10, 2008, 05:31:12 am
Snail, I'm not talking about how efficient or inefficient fusion power is, I'm talking about how dangerous it is.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 10, 2008, 05:33:38 am
Ethanol..... All that alchahol :(


I dunno, i'd say oil / petrol. It took millions of years to make, only a century+ to bleed it dry.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Snail on August 10, 2008, 05:34:29 am
I dunno, i'd say oil / petrol. It took millions of years to make, only a century+ to bleed it dry.
Well, I sure as hell don't want anybody burning my corpse for energy...
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Jeff Vader on August 10, 2008, 05:50:32 am
Well, I sure as hell don't want anybody burning my corpse for energy...
I do. It would be far more cost-effective to burn the dead for energy instead of searching for a place in the ground where you can dump the corpse in a big, boring box.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Snail on August 10, 2008, 05:51:47 am
I do. It would be far more cost-effective to burn the dead for energy instead of searching for a place in the ground where you can dump the corpse in a big, boring box.
I'd like my corpse to be featured on MythBusters!!!! Oh yeah!!
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 10, 2008, 05:54:19 am
I'd like a Judge Dredd style Re-cyc to be implemented. That would be green :yes: Reaction mass wise, i dunno which is more productive, fission or fusion.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 10, 2008, 05:58:38 am
The only radioactive waste that a nuclear reactor would produce is the reactor itself and to lesser extent the radiation shielding surrounding it. The neutron flux will cause isotope changes in anything that it hits. The amount of neutrons per reaction will be a pretty important factor on how fast the reactor will become so radioactive that maintenance and structural integrity start to suffer, but it still takes a long, long time as far as I know - and the fission based reactors are equally susceptible to this phenomena, as they too produce a neutron flux. Fusion reactors have theoretical capacity for so much bigger energy yields that the neutron-induced radioactivity won't really be an issue, since the nuclear fuel itself will become helium-4 or some other stable isotope, depending on the reaction.

Besides, some of the neutron flux will actually be used to produce tritium - by simply covering the insides of the reactor with lithium-6.

What comes to risks of nuclear accident, a fusion power plant is inherently more safe than any fission based power plants. First, the amount of fusion material in the reactor is a lot lot less than in fission reactors. Secondly, the moment the magnetic confinement of plasma goes down, the reaction will stop; the only energy released would be the thermal energy of the plasma inside the reactor. There won't be more energy produced after the reaction is interrupted. And what energy is released won't be sufficient to do any serious harm; at best it'll scorch the insides of the reactor a bit but not by much, they are after all designed to absorb the radiation from the reaction and conduct it as heat to generate kinetic energy in turbines and further electricity by generators... Thirdly, the fusion material converts into safer material (easiest reaction to achieve produces Helium-4), unlike in fission reactors where the fissile materials change into quite a bit more hazardous elements. A terrorist attack would cause the same things - the reaction would just stop, it wouldn't become a hydrogen bomb, and the only damage would be from the attack itself.

Fourthly, fusion reactor technology is very very different from fusion bomb technology, unlike fission reactor technology which has a lot to do with fission bombs - mainly in the sense that fission reactors can be used to make fission bomb materials (plutonium), whereas fusion reactors produce Helium, and the tritium that are stored at the fusion power plant cannot directly be used to just put together to make a bomb, unlike Plutonium. Anyone who steals tritium is not very sensible, as there's really no way to use it as such - it's chemically hydrogen so it will seep through metal tanks in time, and it's active so it will change into deuterium (IIRC) by time, so you can't even store it for sustained periods of time. Whereas like I said, if you're mad enough you can theoretically steal two clumps of plutonium, go into some city with them in separate suitcases, then take them out and slam them together. Boom.

To me it appears as this Bridget Woodman is not very well versed in how fusion reaction and reactors work... which makes Greenpiece look like ass (not an uncommon occasion).

By the way, didn't one of the previous GP leaders completely change their mind about fission reactors some years ago?


As to most wasteful way to produce energy, I'd have to say coal. It produces incredible amounts of waste (CO2, particle emissions, oxides of sulphur and nitrogen) compared to even hydrocarbons like methane or oil-derivative fuels...

However, as far as inefficiency goes, I would say that using energy to make hydrogen, then use that in fuel cells to produce electricity scores pretty high as far as I know.

Fusion reactors will naturally have pretty low efficiency for a while, but due to small amounts of fuel used and negligible waste production, it would be more sustainable than fossile fuels and fission reactors.

Also, burning human carcasses for energy wouldn't be very efficient at all, because fresh bodies have about 75% water in them. You would need to dry them first, resulting in about 75% weight loss (a hundred kilogram body would result in 25% combustable material) and unless you either use a lot of energy to dry them, you would end up with rotting corpses... on the other hand you could use the gases released in the process as well. Hmm. How about being grinded and dumped into a bioreactor? :nervous:
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 10, 2008, 06:08:56 am
I don't trust a word Greenpeace has to say on scientific matters. I don't think I've ever seen them get it right even when it's been on subjects I actually agree with them about.

Look at the case of the Brent Spar as an example of this kind of nonsense. Especially their insistence on removing and dismantling old oil rigs even though they are a home for endangered coral species.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Snail on August 10, 2008, 06:14:08 am
I think they just annoy people for the hell of it.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mefustae on August 10, 2008, 06:54:45 am
I think they just annoy people for the hell of it.
Years ago, Greenpeace actually stood for something and really tried to make a difference. Then, the old order slowly got pushed out and replaced with borderline survivalist, extremist nutjobs. Don't get me wrong, Greenpeace have a lot of good ideas, but they're full of so many morons and reactionary wankers who understand so little of what they're doing, instead making up for their ignorance by doubling their resolve.

So much wasted potential. Greenpeace could have reached out and truly made a difference, but instead they've become a bloody punchline.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 10, 2008, 07:22:48 am
The name "Greenpeace" itself is already starting to look stupid.

Whether they like it or not, they can't have the best. CNG is currently too expensive and hard to obtain for most people, but is clean. Fossil fuels are the easiest to use, but are running out, and nuclear fuel will give us all the energy we need, but at the risk of meltdown. Biofuel may be an alternative...but how much energy can you get from a pile of poop? It's all plant starch and methane.

Whatever anyone says, I don't think there is a way to stamp out the use of nuclear power forever. It's probably the best viable energy source to fossil fuels.

It is said that nuclear fusion produces more power than nuclear fission, but I don't think anyone has managed to control nuclear fusion yet. Controlling nuclear fission was done back in the 1940s to produce the A-Bomb.

By the way, isn't hydrogen power more or less the same as nuclear fusion?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Spicious on August 10, 2008, 07:51:56 am
You seem to be a bit behind the times.
Natural gas is the fossil fuel methane and isn't actually clean.
Nuclear fusion reactors have been built, they just don't produce a surplus of power yet. They don't meltdown.
You also neglect solar thermal and geothermal, but thankfully you didn't mention the travesty that is 'clean coal'.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 10, 2008, 07:59:08 am
Yeah, I know I overlooked those three, but I read that they need lots of space to generate good amounts of power or only work in specific regions of the world. However, as per your post, I am a bit behind the times.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 10, 2008, 09:38:47 am
As far as natural gas goes, fossilic methane and biologically generated methane are a bit different in the sense that burning methane from bioreactors does not increase the amount of carbon dioxide currently in the carbon cycle, whereas burning ancient methane does release the ages ago bound carbon just like burning coal and oil will do.

Same with burning biomass (also known as wood); it's "clean" in the sense that burning plants doesn't load the atmosphere with carbon dioxide emissions (since they only recently bound the carbon to themselves from the CO2 in the air in the first place), but they do release other emissions like particles (also known as smoke I believe) and oxides resulting from incomplete combustion of all the other material in plants than carbon based stuff. And, of course, it takes a lot of land area to grow significant amounts of biomass, at the expense of local wildlife... and resulting in the land becoming incapable of sustaining plant life after some time of exploitation, resulting in need of fertilizers, resulting in loading the nearby bodies of water with nutrient overload potentially disrupting the ecosystem for good.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Kosh on August 10, 2008, 10:27:10 am
I really dont see what Greenpeace's problem with this is. Large amounts of power produced cleanly from simple materials readily available that would last for generations. Fusion should be a dream come true for them.

Besides, Generation 3 and 3+ fission reactors aren't really dangerous since most (if not all) of them have  passive safety features. Even so the dangers of most earlier fission plants have been wildly overstated. Yes, Chernobyl was a tragedy, but it was really the black sheep for several reasons: 1.) Chernobyl at that time was run mostly by coal miners. 2.) Some idiot wanted to run a dangerous experinment that everyone else objected to, which involved purposely shutting off the main cooling systems 3.) In a failed attempt to prevent said experinment, some other morons decided to swtich off the backup cooling systems. Had these been left on the tragedy would not have happened. 4.) The Chernobyl reactor core itself was made from graphite, and so if all the cooling systems were shut down the core would get hot enough to make the graphite explode and burn. Only a handful of reactors with graphite cores exist in the world, and all are old and located in Russia.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: IceFire on August 10, 2008, 10:55:37 am
I'm very much an environmentalist and believe that we should do the right thing for the planet...even if it costs more in some cases.  But nuclear technology is not something we should shy away from.  Allot of energy needs can be met if they can get these Fusion reactors worked out and online...and it seems like...although I'm no expert...that the environmental impact is not insurmountable.  Yes we definitely need things like wind, tidal, geothermal, and solar...but you need something else too.  Fusion seems like a great way to go.  All of these need to be developed...its that or we go back to being a pre-electric society.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 10, 2008, 10:57:14 am
If you burn biomass, you still harm the environment since the fire will eat up the nearby oxygen.

Well, Chernobyl was built by a country that used to spend almost all its finances on weapons, not power. Something bad was bound to happen. And, in any case, if Chernobyl didn't happen, there will eventually be a disaster.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 10, 2008, 11:12:12 am
If you burn biomass, you still harm the environment since the fire will eat up the nearby oxygen.

Plus Minus equals zero... The plants were releasing oxygen and binding carbon dioxide when they were alive; when they are burned they use oxygen and release carbon dioxide.

There are other, a lot more important things in why biomass is not a good, environmental-friendly, sustainable way to produce energy in large scale. Namely the environmental effects of raising said biomass.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: BloodEagle on August 10, 2008, 12:15:46 pm
I think it depends how 'clean' the reaction is. From what I understand, the only residue from Fission in an ideal situation is water, or possibly hydrogen, but possibly 100% efficiency is impossible in the reactions? I'm more guessing than anything else to be honest.

That said, I'm not certain about the concept of neutrons knocking down a building, if these things can take out high-density concrete, then I'm somewhat concerned what they would do to organic matter, and if that were the case, then why is Fusion the Shangri-la of power-creation. I think there might be more to it than is being argued there.

There's already neutron bombs available, and they're designed to take out organic matter only.

Neutron bombs don't work like they're supposed to.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 10, 2008, 12:22:51 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand things a Tokamak-style fusion reactor, which seems most likely to be made to actually work, poses absolutely no threat to anything unless you happen to be within a hundred feet of it when the magnetic bottling goes out. Then you're looking at the reactor plasma possibly frying you, but it won't retain its heat or coherence too long outside the reactor, so there is in effect a built-in mechanism to limit any possible damage.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Bobboau on August 10, 2008, 12:25:05 pm
you lot are just now noticing that Greenpeace sees anything good for man kind as bad for the planet?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 10, 2008, 12:27:23 pm
you lot are just now noticing that Greenpeace sees anything good for man kind as bad for the planet?

Basically as far as I'm concerned the only thing Greenpeace ever does is attempt to sabotage the sailings of US SSBNs, and gets dealt with very harshly in the process.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 10, 2008, 10:58:04 pm
The ELFs aren't any better, are they?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Bobboau on August 11, 2008, 12:28:13 am
there basically just a slightly less lazy offshoot, I'll give them one shred of respect, at least they don't only whine about ****. but they are just all one and the same.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 11, 2008, 02:38:34 am
It is respectable to see them moving around, but that's about as much respect I can give them. It either shows us that they really have the drive, or they're just desperate attention-seeking missiles.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: MarkN on August 11, 2008, 02:40:29 pm
Actually, the only hazard of a fusion reactor is not even the plasma (due to the small amount in the reactor at one time), but if there is a leak in the reactor, the energy of the plasma will transfer to incoming air, and if the leak is of the right size (large wnough to let air in fast, but small enough not allow heated air back out fast enough, the reactor will explode - with less explosive power than the boiler will if it fails catastrophically.
As for the likelihood of seeing fusion power in the near future, i'm doubtful, as ITER keeps on being delayed over political wranglings. In the near future out power generation will have to rely on simpler methods of generation.
Another thing is that for power generation oil is dirtier than coal, but this is because the oil which is generally used is the stuff which is too poor quality to be used as vehicle fuel (usually the liquid waste of the refinery), and produces very little power for the amount of fuel used.

Burning biomass is great idea, except that very few people actually do that. The majority of 'biomass' fuels are heavily refined, and the most common, ethanol produced from corn, uses most of the available energy from the corn in producing the ethanol, not burning it in an engine.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mika on August 11, 2008, 03:55:08 pm
The only way how I can imagine the fusion reactor would be dangerous is the radioactive objects in the proximity of the exact fusion point. It could be possible to make a dirty bomb by blowing the safety shields up, but other than that it is pretty hard to figure out.

Fusion reactors are delayed mainly due to the budget reasons, if my sources are correct. But since most of the scientists find basic research in CERN more important...

Mika
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 11, 2008, 03:57:22 pm
But since most of the scientists find basic research in CERN more important...

To be fair, it's really not a scientist's problem anymore so much as it is an engineer's.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Bob-san on August 11, 2008, 04:22:51 pm
There's not enough Biomass to produce ALL the energy we want and need. And that's only talking about vehicles. Nuclear fission and fusion are our only real ways to make electricity without clogging our atmosphere. I saw an interesting article on getting rid of the deadly products of the reaction--which was basically bury them a few hundred feet in the ground in bedrock. Not the best way (it's still here, just hundreds of feet below our feet), but I do think that effectively rocketing nuclear material into a solar body is a better choice. The sun, a gas giant, or our less-livable planets would get rid of the waste. I'd probably say into a gas giant--since their gravity well is simply enormous from all their mass--and the largest (Jupiter) is a few percent short on mass to become a dwarf star.

On the other hand, fusion makes an interesting alternative. Fission is definitely high-energy, and fusion is something we probably won't master for another hundred years. Remember we've had fission reactors for over 60 years now--and we've only really mastered their use in the last decade or two. Besides--fusion needs help to react. They have a small enough amount of matter that (right now) they won't be self-sustaining. If we figure out how to contain them in magnetic bottles, we may be able to control them enough to start making energy. That's our primary threshold--how to make more energy from the reaction than we spend making the reaction happen in the first place.

Other than that, you'd need high-mass reactants in a fusion reaction to make high-mass isotopes. Using 3[/sub]H, 2[/sub]H, and 1[/sub]H doesn't make these heavy isotopes. It makes 4[/sub]He (3[/sub]H + 1[/sub]H = 4[/sub]He + Energy). Also, a reactor will use up its supplies of the lightest reactants before it uses its products. In astrophysiscs, a late-life star will convert from Hydrogen fusion to Helium fusion, eventually going on to fuse higher-mass products.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 11, 2008, 04:49:28 pm
Actually there was an article in Popular Science called "Carbon Discredit".
It would almost appear a new battle front of idocy is in the making.
Call it a Green War if you will but it pretty much looks like environmentalists are getting the same reputation as witch hunters in the middle ages if this nonsense continues.
Doing nothing and shooting down any reasonable hypothesis or test without a substantially greater amount of evidcence isn't science.
Never has been never will be.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Flaser on August 11, 2008, 05:04:29 pm
I think it depends how 'clean' the reaction is. From what I understand, the only residue from Fission in an ideal situation is water, or possibly hydrogen, but possibly 100% efficiency is impossible in the reactions? I'm more guessing than anything else to be honest.

That said, I'm not certain about the concept of neutrons knocking down a building, if these things can take out high-density concrete, then I'm somewhat concerned what they would do to organic matter, and if that were the case, then why is Fusion the Shangri-la of power-creation. I think there might be more to it than is being argued there.

There's already neutron bombs available, and they're designed to take out organic matter only.

I still want to know how Greenpeace came about with the quote, though. Unless you can make nukes out of helium, which is already available anyway and so if it's possible is not a new risk anyway. Fusion bombs? Could they use the by-products produced?

NO. Nutron bombs are NOT designed to take out ORGANIC MATTER only. That's a common misconceptions. Neutron bombs were designed to take out armored vehicles since the primary lethality of an A-Bomb is heat, and beyond that the pressure wave.

The thick armor of a tank can actually easily handle the heat, and even the shockwave.

So what should be done? Hmm...radiation penetrates that armor with ease. Hurray! Let's build a bomb with increased radiation emission.

It was a bummer, they doubled the radiation output, but to immediately kill the crew of the tank battalion they'd need to give them 20 times the lethal radiation dose. Ergo for a mere 200 meters in increased lethality they had a lot more dangerous and lot more dirty bomb on their hand.

The project was scrapped.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: blackhole on August 11, 2008, 11:00:04 pm
If Total Annihilation taught me anything growing up. . .it's that one reactor is better than six-hundred solar panels. As long as no pesky Core get near it.

2 reactors are better then 1. :p (but spread them apart so they don't get knocked out by a giant swarm of vamps)
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Bobboau on August 11, 2008, 11:37:07 pm
I think it depends how 'clean' the reaction is. From what I understand, the only residue from Fission in an ideal situation is water, or possibly hydrogen, but possibly 100% efficiency is impossible in the reactions? I'm more guessing than anything else to be honest.

That said, I'm not certain about the concept of neutrons knocking down a building, if these things can take out high-density concrete, then I'm somewhat concerned what they would do to organic matter, and if that were the case, then why is Fusion the Shangri-la of power-creation. I think there might be more to it than is being argued there.

There's already neutron bombs available, and they're designed to take out organic matter only.

I still want to know how Greenpeace came about with the quote, though. Unless you can make nukes out of helium, which is already available anyway and so if it's possible is not a new risk anyway. Fusion bombs? Could they use the by-products produced?

NO. Nutron bombs are NOT designed to take out ORGANIC MATTER only. That's a common misconceptions. Neutron bombs were designed to take out armored vehicles since the primary lethality of an A-Bomb is heat, and beyond that the pressure wave.

The thick armor of a tank can actually easily handle the heat, and even the shockwave.

So what should be done? Hmm...radiation penetrates that armor with ease. Hurray! Let's build a bomb with increased radiation emission.

It was a bummer, they doubled the radiation output, but to immediately kill the crew of the tank battalion they'd need to give them 20 times the lethal radiation dose. Ergo for a mere 200 meters in increased lethality they had a lot more dangerous and lot more dirty bomb on their hand.

The project was scrapped.

http://www.manuelsweb.com/sam_cohen.htm

the designer of the neutron bomb disagrees with you.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 12, 2008, 03:26:56 am
http://www.manuelsweb.com/sam_cohen.htm

*files link away for the inevitable argument next time someone says Iran can't be trusted with nukes*

:p
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 12, 2008, 04:44:38 am
*files link away for the inevitable argument next time someone says Iran can't be trusted with nukes*

:p

Well, the US could try giving Iran a chance... :nervous:
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 12, 2008, 04:54:25 am
I'm not talking about giving them a chance. It's simply that the argument always ends up with people saying the US can be trusted with nukes while Iran can't. It's always good to point out that the US can't be trusted either. :p
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 12, 2008, 05:15:33 am
Exactly, karajorma. If the US has nuclear power that it can use with abandon, why can't Iran do the same? It almost makes the US look like a terrorist nation, since they can use a gun, and some other countries can't.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 12, 2008, 05:55:28 am
I saw crimson tide two days ago. I say Gene Hackman is to blame. . J/k
Yeah the states obviously have a unique perspective being the only ones to have used any atomic level devices offensively. So far . . . . .
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Admiral_Stones on August 12, 2008, 06:01:31 am
Quote from: From Wikipedia page on ITER (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER)
Bridget Woodman of Greenpeace said "Pursuing nuclear fusion and the ITER project is madness. Nuclear fusion has all the problems of nuclear power, including producing nuclear waste and the risks of a nuclear accident." "Governments should not waste our money on a dangerous toy which will never deliver any useful energy," said Jan Vande Putte of Greenpeace International. "Instead, they should invest in renewable energy which is abundantly available, not in 2080 but today."

French environmental groups said the project ITER, was "dangerous", "costly", and "not a job generator". A French association including about 700 antinuclear groups, Sortir du nucléaire (Get Out of Nuclear Energy), also claimed that ITER was a hazard because scientists did not yet know how to manipulate the high-energy deuterium and tritium hydrogen isotopes used in the fusion process.

The ITER project confronts numerous technically challenging issues. French physicist Sébastien Balibar, director of research at the CNRS said We say that we will put the sun into a box. The idea is pretty. The problem is, we don't know how to make the box.

A technical concern is that the 14 MeV neutrons produced by the fusion reactions will damage the materials from which the reactor is built. Research is in progress at IFMIF to determine how and/or if reactor walls can be designed to last long enough to make a commercial power plant economically viable in the presence of the intense neutron bombardment. The damage is primarily caused by high energy neutrons knocking atoms out of their normal position in the crystal lattice. A related problem for a future commercial fusion power plant is that the neutron bombardment will induce radioactivity in the reactor itself. Maintaining and decommissioning a commercial reactor may thus be difficult and expensive. Another problem is that superconducting magnets are damaged by neutron fluxes.

Rebecca Harms, Green/EFA member of the European Parliament's Committee on Industry, Research and Energy, said: "In the next 50 years nuclear fusion will neither tackle climate change nor guarantee the security of our energy supply." Arguing that the EU's energy research should be focused elsewhere, she said: "The Green/EFA group demands that these funds be spent instead on energy research that is relevant to the future. A major focus should now be put on renewable sources of energy." French Green party lawmaker Noël Mamère claims that more concrete efforts to fight present-day global warming will be neglected as a result of ITER: "This is not good news for the fight against the greenhouse effect because we're going to put ten billion euros towards a project that has a term of 30-50 years when we're not even sure it will be effective."

A number of fusion researchers working on non-tokamak systems, such as Robert Bussard and Eric Lerner, have been critical of ITER for diverting funding that they believe could be used for their potentially more reasonable and/or cost effective fusion power plant designs. Criticisms levied often revolve around claims of the unwillingness by ITER researchers to face up to potential problems (both technical and economic) due to the dependence of their jobs on the continuation of tokamak research. An informal overview of the last decade of work was presented at the 57th International Astronautical Congress in October 2006.

I know that Greenpeace and other environmental groups are trying to save the planet, and I commend them for that, but I find it annoying that they think a FUSION reactor is as dangerous as a fission reactor. The only by-product from a fusion reactor is helium. Aren't they supposed to be much safer?

(Unless the tritium leaks out, and I'm sure that's not as bad as uranium and stuff.)

EDIT: From their website,

Quote from: Greenpeace (http://www.greenpeace.org/international/press/releases/ITERprojectFrance)
Fusion energy - if it would ever operate - would create a serious waste problem, would emit large amounts of radioactive material and could be used to produce materials for nuclear weapons. A whole new set of nuclear risks would thus be created.

 :wtf:

Greenies Piss me off. Whetether Greenpeace or some Green Parties, the piss me off. Try running an entire ****ing country with solar panels and oversizer ventilators!
IMNSHO Nuclear Power Plants are the way to go, correctly maintained and controlled they are by far the best choice.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mobius on August 12, 2008, 06:17:51 am
Exactly, karajorma. If the US has nuclear power that it can use with abandon, why can't Iran do the same? It almost makes the US look like a terrorist nation, since they can use a gun, and some other countries can't.

Ha-hem...

1) Iran is interested on nukes and new weapons. No one can simply sit and wait while someone develops nukes and new armaments like the Saegeh(I hope I spelled it correctly) and the recently developed missiles able to hit Israel.

2) Whoever claims that Israel should be cancelled shouldn't be allowed to keep the research on nuclear energy going. They're free to claim that they won't be developing nukes but...it's still dangerous. It's pretty much like giving a gun to a child.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mefustae on August 12, 2008, 06:40:54 am
Ha-hem...

1) Iran is interested on nukes and new weapons. No one can simply sit and wait while someone develops nukes and new armaments like the Saegeh(I hope I spelled it correctly) and the recently developed missiles able to hit Israel.
Says who? Haven't they only expressed interest in developing a civilian nuclear program to help wean their country off its oil dependence?

2) Whoever claims that Israel should be cancelled shouldn't be allowed to keep the research on nuclear energy going. They're free to claim that they won't be developing nukes but...it's still dangerous. It's pretty much like giving a gun to a child.
They may talk big, but would they really commit to attacking Israel non-conventionally, knowing that it would invite instant retaliation in kind from the US? It's the same thing with people who try to make out North Korea's nuclear "capability" as show-stopping, end of the world type stuff: Dictators need a country to dictate over, and assured nuclear destruction isn't exactly how they want to write themselves into the history books.

If Iran was pursuant of nuclear capability, then it would be entirely for defensive purposes should any nation, perhaps a nation with considerable armed forces in the region and an historically itchy trigger-finger, prove aggressive towards her. In the modern world, nukes are defensive. Say it with me now: Defensive. Only the larger, considerably more powerful nations like the USA and Russia would dare to use their nuclear option in an offensive role, and even then the political ramifications would be devastating to either nation. So why then, when even the most powerful nations on Earth wouldn't dare press the button, is the danger of Iran potentially getting minor capability, in an indeterminate but lengthly amount of time mind you, so critical and dangerous?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mobius on August 12, 2008, 07:49:03 am
Who can ensure you that they do that only for civilian purposes? Ahmadinejad clearly stated what he wants Israel to be turned into - why would the world let people like those get their hands on nuclear energy?

If we're not sure we can't let them go.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Kosh on August 12, 2008, 08:38:36 am
Here's the reason they want it:

North Korea has something resembling a nuke, and so the US talks with them. Iraq had no nukes what so ever and wasn't even developing them, and so the US invades them. If you were the leader of Iran, which position would you chose, number one or number two?

EDIT: After after reading the article in Bob's link, holy ****. That guy's advocacy for the usage of nuclear weapons for OFFENSE is frightening at best. The trouble is something like a neutron bomb would make WW3 much easier to declare than it should be.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mobius on August 12, 2008, 08:56:33 am
They shouldn't threaten Israel, anyway.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 12, 2008, 10:08:05 am
The US having Nuclear arms is not a good thing but the US invests heavily in policing the world.
Iran is over run by rather fanatical nearly genocidal groups of self proclaimed righteous dictators.
I agree its like handing a child the controls to a robotic cannon.
It takes very little to do the math.
Iran does not have the capability to provide the net of safety and security to insure the commercial application.
Nuclear arms in that region will have a shelf life of 10 years maximum before someone claims a terrorist organization launched and it was not sanctioned by the government... the usual blah blah blah horse hockey.
Any belief or logic applied to that region is utterly absurd.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Kosh on August 12, 2008, 10:31:45 am
Maybe we should let them blast eachother to bits, then we walk in a pump the oil for ourselves. Anyone have a problem with this plan? Thought not. :P
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Snail on August 12, 2008, 11:01:17 am
They shouldn't threaten Israel, anyway.
So the West can threaten people, but the Middle East can't (note: I am in no way saying Iran should be threatening to wipe Israel off the map. I'm simply saying world values are extremely unbalanced)? I remember Sarkozy said something about a nuclear counterattack if terrorists ever got to France again - Exactly who the hell would Sarkozy target with nukes? Palestine and the hundreds of civilians there? Afghanistan, a bunch of farmers hiding in hills? The best target would be France itself - They're probably on your soil, not in any of the Middle Eastern countries. You can't counter Al-Qaeda, a non-geographical organization, with nukes. So if anything, it's America that is unjustified in having nuclear bombs.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 12, 2008, 12:34:41 pm
Don't get me wrong Snail, the thing about the US and its freedoms; you can't see the best without seeing the worst mixed in with it. Most of it just opinions and posturing though based upon the freedom of speech. Individuals can be somewhat more ethical and intelligent than large frenzied groups is an age old crisis as well.
 If the US was so horrible, narrow minded, and held so much animosity it would have just childlishly nuked MECCA in retaliation to 911. That simply is not the case, nor the way the country has conducted themselves. Instead they have placed their stronger youth of the military in harms way trying to root out as much of the Al-Queada leadership as logic and political restraint allows them. Sending aid whenever possible to the peaceful civilian populace trying to push the balance in that region without the barbarism of Saddahm Hussein. It is never going to be perfect of course, the people on those front lines are only human and can only take so much and the media tried to sensationalize and capitalize on the moments giving the Al-Queada network more propoganda as well. The morality of terrorism doesn't exist however. Never has, never will.
Everything living knows right from wrong, some just choose to ignore it and tell themselves a lie enough times to make it seem true. Freedom is dangerous! Should we do away with it? Absurd logical application. Can we respect a nation wishing to have a say in world affairs and empowering themselves to grow? Of course! As long as they recognize others right to survive with mutual respect. Violence & destruction are 100 times easier and quicker than building anything.
You can buy a hammer in a store and murder someone before even walking out the door with it much faster and with less effort and economics than you can build a house for those in need. Do you give a noticably irresponsible group of children a bunch of hammers being trained by Bugs Bunny cartoons day and night about their useage?

What is criminal is the arms race that was capitalized in those countries making them the hellish nightmare it has been.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 12, 2008, 01:07:30 pm
Do you honestly believe after reading that article that Reagan wouldn't have tried to use neutron bombs in Vietnam had he been the one in charge back then? Maybe he wouldn't have gotten away with the attempt but I very much doubt the same man who planned the complete overreaction that was the invasion of Grenada wouldn't have considered it.

We were fortunate that he was a decade too late. Don't assume that next time we'll be so lucky.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 12, 2008, 01:17:54 pm
Fortunately time has seemed a factor to play an important role in the decision making from Capitol Hill.
Am I absolutely confident in politicians or government? No. I'm only one citizen.
The only difference between a hero and a fool are the witnesses opinions and they never cease to be debated.
Is our worlds societies more informed than the Regan era? Absolutely!
Has this influenced the world in a positive way. Another subject of debate.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 12, 2008, 01:30:36 pm
Have you said anything that really relates to the matter at hand? Nope.

The simple fact is that few people claim that the current government of Iran would actually use nuclear weapons. What most people worry about is that a future government might choose to use them and that this is unacceptable. However that article makes it very clear that the US can't exactly claim the moral high ground on the issue.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 12, 2008, 02:18:10 pm
I don't trust the volatility of the region period.
One of the reasons the US is even over there is the fact that every Diplomat claimed being powerless to control these terrorist factions and relinquished any responsibility when 911 occurred.
If they can't claim responsibility or control over these terrorist groups in their own backyard they certainly can't be trusted with Nuclear power. I feel it is completely related from my end of things?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 12, 2008, 04:11:52 pm
So they can't control terrorist groups that the US funded and trained in the first place and that's their fault?

How come you're not saying that the US can't be trusted for not being able to control terrorists like Bin Laden who they trained?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 12, 2008, 06:08:17 pm
I beleive GW senior was/could be logically held responsible for that nonsense while being director of the CIA? Hence, the whole reason we ended up as a country doing a janitorial process for the mess that ensued. So hell yes we as a country are taking responsibility.
You think Iran ever will take any responsibility for nurturing anything but hate for us offering assistance? Hell no!
Those that weren't at the table took it as a personal slight and their fanatical beleifs took hold to dislodge any good that could come from allowing them to autonomously handle things with aid like this.
Yes we armed many of these people and trained them and look what they did with it!
This wasn't some grand evil plot. It was an attempt to help these people balance the region and bring peace at one point.
There was a humanitarian thought process to try and stop the bloodshed at that point with arms.
They appealed and we listened.
Yes, I can look at the entire thing a bit skeptical under the guise of "Blood in the streets and money to be made."

Kara, I've met and worked with Iranians while I was in the Military and they were brilliant, amicable, wonderful people.
I still work with Iranians with my current employment and they are the same. Educated, hard working, and peaceful souls.
I posed the question to them. "Do you think Iran should be allowed to explore Nuclear power and weapons?"
They looked at me like I was insane to even ask. One guy I respect immensely said quote: "The general public and government would destroy themselves." He went on to mention that "Idealistically of course!" but the reality of that region of the world defies logic based on the educational structures in place due to the poor distribution of wealth.

My girlfriend is a Muslim, Thai/Pakistani, with the last name El Hussein.
So my views are not skewed by some sort of naive beleif or predjudice.

Last Edit:
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 12, 2008, 06:32:59 pm
Do you honestly believe after reading that article that Reagan wouldn't have tried to use neutron bombs in Vietnam had he been the one in charge back then?

Perhaps, perhaps not, but he didn't use them, so whether we were backed into the compliment or not we have a pretty good track record. The probablity of past events doesn't matter for science, it happened, so whether it should have or not is moot.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 12, 2008, 07:15:59 pm
I just have one last thing to say about these off topic debates...
Despite all of the destructive force present in this entire system of events, the young men and women on these front lines of Iraq are there out of purely idealistic views and completely voluntarily. No matter how much a person could wish to find fault in that, they are living with insurmountable potentials of violence in their lives every day they are there. Not to mention the civilian populations in these regions and the attrocities they face just trying to raise their families every day. I spoke at a BBQ with an officer from Iraqi intelligence here near DC. He looks like he has aged 10 years in just 6 months from the levels of stress he faces every day. I can only imagine the decisions he faces on a regular basis. All I can say a man of extraordinary courage, heart, and volition would place himself in the position he faces.
All through this entire process we are borrowing from our friends in China to continue these operations for peace in the Middle East so hopefully some day we won't find this such a heated debate. I hope one day very very soon this is a moot point to bring up energy concerns of a society ever coming into question. I hate the fact Iran is even being considered a part of this entire series of events.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Kosh on August 12, 2008, 07:56:36 pm
Quote
Instead they have placed their stronger youth of the military in harms way trying to root out as much of the Al-Queada leadership as logic and political restraint allows them. Sending aid whenever possible to the peaceful civilian populace trying to push the balance in that region without the barbarism of Saddahm Hussein.


You do realize that Al-Queada's greatest ally in the region has always been Saudi Arabia, right? Over he last 30 years it has spent billions of our own petro dollars setting up extremist religious schools in Saudi Arabia and abroad that serve as a major recruiting ground.

Even so, Al-Queda was very much our own creation.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 12, 2008, 08:55:10 pm
You actually think all of the business being done in Dubai is not a front for major intelligence?
Its the financial hub at the center of it all.
Have you tried getting one of those 6 figure jobs working in that region?
What is driving this money machine?
You are talking about a party region where the princes make in excess of 30 billion a day.
More money than attributable to that upper 1% of America's wealthiest.
How many people would attribute their resources to those people out of simple jealous animosity in the war of the "Have and Have Nots?"

Why was Bin Ladens family the only civilian flight allowed during the 911 incident?
Do we have the right to freeze those assets based upon accusation and cripple global economies?
Placing entire regions of families in a state of crisis and emergency?
Because one angry family member committed mass murder, your entire family is put to death by angry mobs in the heat of the moment?

We can debate all of this, sure I love to debate, but I stay away from trolls and do not wish to be one in any respect and hope I do not come off as one ever. That being said, I'm glad to have this conversation. We all learn from eachother and that is the secret to compromise being the source of a global societies evolution and growth. Tradition is a beatiful romance of ceremony and should be respected. Change is inevitable as the information age brings us closer to the point of claustrophobia due to world population and consumption ever increasing.
Getting back to the topic of Fusion an alternative energy sources.
Alternative energy is going to be the solution to the bleak outlooks we all are consumed by in the past 10 years.
The biggest problem is we use our consciences and experiences to the point of procrastination during these infant stages of change.
The Earth is going to be fine regardless of what we do to it.
It was here long before we infested it and long after we could be gone due to our insolence.
Our responsibility is to life and the existence of not just humanity but the evolution of all species.
Am I going to become a Vegan? Nope. I'm a predator and I love meat.
Green Weeks and other awareness programs are merely stimulating change in spite of the drama we face with the current attrocities we are capable of. I guess the main reason I was attracted by this thread is the stupidity I see in the big picture in the amount of positive, experienced people and resources being quagmired by the ill informed. None of us wish to be part of that group. But we are of course all human and need to debate these issues publicly and genuinely speak up out of common sense instead of letting those who whine the loudest rule our lives.
A trend we have only begun being aware of. Like I said before, repeating a lie until we beleive its truth is what kills us most.
Myself, I want one of those coke a cola sized machines in my yard making hydrogen for my car from water and electricity.
I wish I had the capital to invest into what the Netherlands have already accomplished.
You really want to remove power from the middle east? All while building up our own countries economic staminas?
Alternative energy infrastructure changes will never get cheaper than now.
Inflation and war are screaming these facts in our faces but we do have to take risks.
I would rather look at ecological balancing influences and negating my carbon foot print with my daily activities than seeing the potential that my kids are going to be risking their lives at the hands of irresponsible political dog and pony shows over petroleum based economies.
A curious pundit as we approach elections and we have Paris Hilton making a more remarkable infomercial than our candidates.



Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mars on August 12, 2008, 10:15:33 pm
You actually think all of the business being done in Dubai is not a front for major intelligence?
Its the financial hub at the center of it all.
Have you tried getting one of those 6 figure jobs working in that region?
What is driving this money machine?
You are talking about a party region where the princes make in excess of 30 billion a day.
More money than attributable to that upper 1% of America's wealthiest.
How many people would attribute their resources to those people out of simple jealous animosity in the war of the "Have and Have Nots?"

Why was Bin Ladens family the only civilian flight allowed during the 911 incident?
Do we have the right to freeze those assets based upon accusation and cripple global economies?
Placing entire regions of families in a state of crisis and emergency?
Because one angry family member committed mass murder, your entire family is put to death by angry mobs in the heat of the moment?

We can debate all of this, sure I love to debate, but I stay away from trolls and do not wish to be one in any respect and hope I do not come off as one ever. That being said, I'm glad to have this conversation. We all learn from eachother and that is the secret to compromise being the source of a global societies evolution and growth. Tradition is a beatiful romance of ceremony and should be respected. Change is inevitable as the information age brings us closer to the point of claustrophobia due to world population and consumption ever increasing.
Getting back to the topic of Fusion an alternative energy sources.
Alternative energy is going to be the solution to the bleak outlooks we all are consumed by in the past 10 years.
The biggest problem is we use our consciences and experiences to the point of procrastination during these infant stages of change.
The Earth is going to be fine regardless of what we do to it.
It was here long before we infested it and long after we could be gone due to our insolence.
Our responsibility is to life and the existence of not just humanity but the evolution of all species.
Am I going to become a Vegan? Nope. I'm a predator and I love meat.
Green Weeks and other awareness programs are merely stimulating change in spite of the drama we face with the current attrocities we are capable of. I guess the main reason I was attracted by this thread is the stupidity I see in the big picture in the amount of positive, experienced people and resources being quagmired by the ill informed. None of us wish to be part of that group. But we are of course all human and need to debate these issues publicly and genuinely speak up out of common sense instead of letting those who whine the loudest rule our lives.
A trend we have only begun being aware of. Like I said before, repeating a lie until we beleive its truth is what kills us most.
Myself, I want one of those coke a cola sized machines in my yard making hydrogen for my car from water and electricity.
I wish I had the capital to invest into what the Netherlands have already accomplished.
You really want to remove power from the middle east? All while building up our own countries economic staminas?
Alternative energy infrastructure changes will never get cheaper than now.
Inflation and war are screaming these facts in our faces but we do have to take risks.
I would rather look at ecological balancing influences and negating my carbon foot print with my daily activities than seeing the potential that my kids are going to be risking their lives at the hands of irresponsible political dog and pony shows over petroleum based economies.
A curious pundit as we approach elections and we have Paris Hilton making a more remarkable infomercial than our candidates.
Can you back up any of those?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 12, 2008, 10:32:39 pm
That would take considerable time wouldn't it?
I'm not going to dance around the issue of validity with anyone as it will never cease to be challenged.
I know I am an optomist in many of my views but I am an honest man willing to invest his time to hope others would share my beleif that the world isn't inherently evil and all is not lost by a long shot.
I'll make a deal with you since your investment here is one sentence long with a simple question.
Give me one instance to validate and I'll do my best to provide reasonable proof.

In the same regard, can you deny them with just as valid proof you claim to have for doubt?
I look forward to the response regardless because both of us stand to learn something new in the process changing our perspectives.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 12, 2008, 11:12:57 pm
That would take considerable time wouldn't it?
I'm not going to dance around the issue of validity with anyone as it will never cease to be challenged.
I know I am an optomist in many of my views but I am an honest man willing to invest his time to hope others would share my beleif that the world isn't inherently evil and all is not lost by a long shot.
I'll make a deal with you since your investment here is one sentence long with a simple question.
Give me one instance to validate and I'll do my best to provide reasonable proof.

In the same regard, can you deny them with just as valid proof you claim to have for doubt?
I look forward to the response regardless because both of us stand to learn something new in the process changing our perspectives.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, but more to the point, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. Sure, validity can always be challenged, but there comes a point where further challenge grows ludicrious. If you have the facts, why the hesitance to back them up?

Argument from ignorance doesn't fly. Just because you can't prove something does not exist does not mean it does.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: IceFire on August 12, 2008, 11:15:25 pm
I'm with Kewl about having a hydrogen system in my back yard.  Its doable now...its expensive...but its doable.  And yes its hooked up to the power grid but my power comes from nuclear and hydro so its already relatively green energy compared to the likes of oil and coal burning.  I say bring on the Honda FCX-Clarity and Honda's Hydrogen Fuel Generating stations or whatever Toyota, GM, or anyone else wants to throw at it.

I also don't like the tone of some folks in the thread about the "greenies".  Unfortunately groups like Greenpeace alienate the typical person and generally don't have a realistic outlook on how to balance human wants. needs, and desires for standards of living with environmental concerns.  I'm an environmentalist but I don't want to go back to pre-industrial living....we must step forwards and we must be conscious of our environment and the damage we do to it.  IF were smart then we can figure out how to balance the two....and I think we're pretty damn smart but we're also incredibly moronic.

So...combine things like solar which can be done in multiple forms and gets better and more efficient every year, plus wind which can be done many ways as well, plus tidal power which hasn't been proven in the field yet (but soon), plus nuclear for now and fusion in the future.  Having power sources like those instead of burning coal and oil is a huge difference...if we can do those things and we can make the average car a hydrogen vehicle then we've solved all sorts of problems.  Some of those problems solved are political...we don't have to fight over oil pipelines because we can make the hydrogen in all kinds of places.

BTW: There is a reasonably solid rebuttal on Wikipedia in the same article area:

Quote
Response to criticism

Proponents believe that much of the ITER criticism is misleading and inaccurate, in particular the allegations of the experiment's "inherent danger." The stated goals for a commercial fusion power station design are that the amount of radioactive waste produced be hundreds of times less than that of a fission reactor, that it produce no long-lived radioactive waste, and that it be impossible for any fusion reactor to undergo a large-scale runaway chain reaction. This is because direct contact with the walls of the reactor would contaminate the plasma, cooling it down immediately and stopping the fusion process. Besides which, the amount of fuel planned to be contained in a fusion reactor chamber (one half gram of deuterium/tritium fuel[27]) is only enough to sustain the reaction for an hour at maximum,[28] whereas a fission reactor usually contains several years' worth of fuel.[29] In case of accident (or intentional act of terrorism) a fusion reactor releases far less radioactive pollution than an ordinary fission nuclear plant. Besides, tritium being lighter than air would rise up into stratosphere where it very soon dilutes to concentrations far below natural background radioactivity of air. Proponents note that large-scale fusion power — if it works — will be able to produce reliable electricity on demand and with virtually zero pollution (no gaseous CO2 / SO2 / NOx by-products are produced).

According to researchers at a demonstration reactor in Japan, a fusion generator should be feasible in the 2030s and no later than the 2050s. Japan is pursuing its own research program with several operational facilities exploring different aspects of practicability.[30]

In the United States alone, electricity accounts for US$210 billion in annual sales.[31] Asia's electricity sector attracted US$93 billion in private investment between 1990 and 1999.[32] These figures take into account only current prices. With petroleum prices widely expected to rise, political pressure on carbon production, and steadily increasing demand, these figures will undoubtedly also rise. Proponents contend that an investment in research now should be viewed as an attempt to earn a far greater future return for the economy.[citation needed] Also, worldwide investment of less than US$1 billion per year into ITER is not incompatible with concurrent research into other methods of power generation.[citation needed]

Contrary to criticism, proponents of ITER assert that there are significant employment benefits associated with the project. ITER will provide employment for hundreds of physicists, engineers, material scientists, construction workers and technicians in the short term, and if successful, will lead to a global industry of fusion-based power generation[citation needed].

Supporters of ITER emphasize that the only way to convincingly prove ideas for withstanding the intense neutron flux is to experimentally subject materials to that flux — one of the primary missions of ITER and the IFMIF,[33] and both facilities will be of vital importance to the effort due to the differences in neutron power spectra between a real D-T burning plasma and the spectrum to be produced by IFMIF.[34] The purpose of ITER is to explore the scientific and engineering questions surrounding fusion power plants, such that it may be possible to build one intelligently in the future. It is nearly impossible to get satisfactory theoretical results regarding the properties of materials under an intense energetic neutron flux, and burning plasmas are expected to have quite different properties from externally heated plasmas.[citation needed] The point has been reached, according to supporters, where answering these questions about fusion reactors by experiment (via ITER) is an economical research investment, given the monumental potential benefit.

Furthermore the main line of research—the tokamak—has been developed to the point that it is now possible to undertake the penultimate step in magnetic confinement plasma physics research—the investigation of ‘burning’ plasmas in which the vast majority of the heating is provided by the fusion event itself. A detailed engineering design, supported by substantial technology R&D, has been developed for a tokamak experiment which would explore burning plasma physics and integrate reactor relevant technology. In the tokamak research program, recent advances in controlling the internal configuration of the plasma have led to the achievement of substantially improved energy and pressure confinement in tokamaks—the so-called ‘advanced tokamak’ modes—which reduces the projected cost of electricity from tokamak reactors by a factor of two to a value only about 50% more than the projected cost of electricity from advanced light-water reactors. In parallel, progress in the development of advanced, low activation structural materials supports the promise of environmentally benign fusion reactors, and research into alternate confinement concepts is yielding promise of future improvements in confinement. [35]

Finally, supporters point out that other potential replacements to the current use of fossil fuel sources have environmental issues of their own. Solar, wind, and hydroelectric power all have a relatively low power output per square kilometer compared to ITER's successor DEMO which, at 500 MW,[citation needed] should have an energy density that exceeds even large fission power plants [36]

So Fusion, depending on who you believe, is much less of a problem than it appears to be.  It seems like this is something some serious money should be spent on and right away.  Lots of less useful things get tons of money.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 13, 2008, 12:38:14 am
That would take considerable time wouldn't it?
I'm not going to dance around the issue of validity with anyone as it will never cease to be challenged.
I know I am an optomist in many of my views but I am an honest man willing to invest his time to hope others would share my beleif that the world isn't inherently evil and all is not lost by a long shot.
I'll make a deal with you since your investment here is one sentence long with a simple question.
Give me one instance to validate and I'll do my best to provide reasonable proof.

In the same regard, can you deny them with just as valid proof you claim to have for doubt?
I look forward to the response regardless because both of us stand to learn something new in the process changing our perspectives.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, but more to the point, the burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. Sure, validity can always be challenged, but there comes a point where further challenge grows ludicrious. If you have the facts, why the hesitance to back them up?

Argument from ignorance doesn't fly. Just because you can't prove something does not exist does not mean it does.
Well based on the reasonably dead horse trolling is that people keep kicking,
I had to request some more input based on such a smug and very little effort question.
But I'm glad you bring up the fact that you find my claims extraordinary.
All I am asking is what specifically seems unlikely or without evidence and contived if you will?
Don't say all of it, thats completely contrived and wreaks of pedantic trolling.
I do not mean any insult towards you or others here.
All I ask is a reasonable investment of time from both members invested for an enlightened conversation.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 13, 2008, 01:30:02 am
Then pick a subject and stick with it. The point you decided to make was that sponsorship of terrorism makes Iran untrustworthy with nukes. I pointed out that America has sponsored the very terrorists you're complaining about. You then pepper arguments around that have very little to do with the discussion in hand and expect people to take your outlandish questions on trust. Either stick to the discussion at hand or don't bother discussing at all.


As for the discussion itself. There is a big difference between saying should Iran have the nuke and should America? In case you haven't noticed I've been pointing out the hypocrisy that often appears when people try to argue the former shouldn't but defend the latter's right to them.


Oh and America only gave a stuff about Bin Laden when he turned on them. If he had been blowing up Iranian buildings they probably wouldn't have given a damn and would only have made a token effort to catch him. Can you honestly see America supporting an Iranian invasion of Afghanistan had 9/11 killed 3000 Iranians? Don't kid yourself into think America are taking responsibility.

When Iranian sponsored terrorists starts attacking Iran then you might see them do something cleaning up their mess. If anything your arguments prove my point. America has been responsible for toppling more governments, starting more wars, committing more assassination attempts and whole bunch of other foreign policy cluster****s than Iran ever has.

It's all very well pointing out that once Iran has the nuke a more fundamental regime may decide to use them but why not apply that logic to America?

Perhaps, perhaps not, but he didn't use them, so whether we were backed into the compliment or not we have a pretty good track record. The probablity of past events doesn't matter for science, it happened, so whether it should have or not is moot.

It does matter when you're trying to argue that America can be trusted with nukes in the future while Iran can't.

Oh and you have the worst track record. Nukes used in wartime, 100% American. :p
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 13, 2008, 02:41:24 am
It does matter when you're trying to argue that America can be trusted with nukes in the future while Iran can't.

Oh and you have the worst track record. Nukes used in wartime, 100% American. :p

That's the exact same argument intelligent design people would use about evolution, in different clothing. The probablity is so low it must be impossible! (Unless there is an outside source!) Probablity of past events is irrevelant. Probablity of future events is not, and since GWB wasn't crazy enough to order a nuclear attack in response to 9/11 or the use of neutron bombs in Iraq, and he's the most inept, fundie, and militarily incompetent president the US is likely to elect for the foreseeable future, I'd say it's safe to let the US keep their nuclear weapons for another forty years or so.

And the wartime use is irrevelant because what we're worried about here is nukes used in a preemptive strike or terroristic attack, not in wartime against an opponent who fired the first shots and in an attempt to prevent even more serious bloodshed by impressing upon them the utter futility of further resistance. (Since arguably, the entire use of nuclear weapons was a bluff, as the US didn't actually have any more and it would have taken at least a couple months to assemble and ship them, if not longer. Recall that building three bombs took them a good two years.)
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: sardaukar86 on August 13, 2008, 03:18:04 am
It is said that nuclear fusion produces more power than nuclear fission, but I don't think anyone has managed to control nuclear fusion yet. Controlling nuclear fission was done back in the 1940s to produce the A-Bomb.

Heh, there's nothing controlled about a fission bomb.. although I do see what you were getting at. :)

Fission-based power plants are capable of delivering almost as much collective benefit (low waste, high output, high reliability, 0% of meltdown) as the 'we'll have it in 50 years' commercial fusion reactors are predicted to deliver.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love fusion plants tomorrow as much as the next geek but the truth is that fusion research has become a giant porkbarrel where money is the motivating factor rather than good science.

The real problem with fission is the States is that reprocessing is a swearword that equates to 'nookular weppins for them ay-rabs' in the minds of most average folk in the US.  This is the result of uneducated FUD. Modern nuclear fission concepts are pretty darn slick, pretty darn efficient, and pretty darn safe.  Check out Wikipedia for details on the nuclear lightbulb and pebble-bed reactor designs.

No energy source is completely safe, but at least it takes transport out of the equation.  Those supertankers filled to the gunnels with liquid natural gas?  About the same explosive energy as sixty Hiroshima bombs, according to the Discovery channel (ingest with sodium chloride as appropriate).  I believe Little Boy was about 13 Kilotons (some say up to 17), so we're talking damn near three-quarters of a megaton in one vessel alone.  Who needs nuclear weapons with fuel tankers like these?

Sorry, this wasn't aimed at you specifically, I actually agree with most of your post. :)
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 13, 2008, 03:43:33 am
It is said that nuclear fusion produces more power than nuclear fission, but I don't think anyone has managed to control nuclear fusion yet. Controlling nuclear fission was done back in the 1940s to produce the A-Bomb.

Heh, there's nothing controlled about a fission bomb.. although I do see what you were getting at. :)

Fission-based power plants are capable of delivering almost as much collective benefit (low waste, high output, high reliability, 0% of meltdown) as the 'we'll have it in 50 years' commercial fusion reactors are predicted to deliver.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love fusion plants tomorrow as much as the next geek but the truth is that fusion research has become a giant porkbarrel where money is the motivating factor rather than good science.

The real problem with fission is the States is that reprocessing is a swearword that equates to 'nookular weppins for them ay-rabs' in the minds of most average folk in the US.  This is the result of uneducated FUD. Modern nuclear fission concepts are pretty darn slick, pretty darn efficient, and pretty darn safe.  Check out Wikipedia for details on the nuclear lightbulb and pebble-bed reactor designs.

No energy source is completely safe, but at least it takes transport out of the equation.  Those supertankers filled to the gunnels with liquid natural gas?  About the same explosive energy as sixty Hiroshima bombs, according to the Discovery channel (ingest with sodium chloride as appropriate).  I believe Little Boy was about 13 Kilotons (some say up to 17), so we're talking damn near three-quarters of a megaton in one vessel alone.  Who needs nuclear weapons with fuel tankers like these?

Sorry, this wasn't aimed at you specifically, I actually agree with most of your post. :)

TRIFORCE SAYS...

:welcomeblue:

If you were attacking me in that post, which you are not ( :) ), I didn't notice.

There was some explosion back in the early 1900s which had a blast yield of 30 megatons. Rumour is that a UFO exploded.

I actually agree with you. Technology has definitely improved over the past 60 years, so the use of nuclear fuel, as well as its risks, are well-documented. Nobody wants a nuclear fallout, which is why the only nuclear attacks I've read of are the Hiroshima and Nagasaki ones, although I know that other nukes have been triggered in unpopulated areas before.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 13, 2008, 04:24:23 am
That's the exact same argument intelligent design people would use about evolution, in different clothing. The probablity is so low it must be impossible! (Unless there is an outside source!).

Yes. And you're the one making it! You're the one claiming that since Reagan never got the chance to be in a war where he'd use nukes the fact that he didn't use them means he could be trusted with them. You're the one claiming that the probability of past events is irrelevant.

That's a similar argument to saying someone you suspect is dangerously insane is perfectly trustworthy with a gun because he hasn't killed anyone yet.

Quote
Probablity of past events is irrevelant. Probablity of future events is not, and since GWB wasn't crazy enough to order a nuclear attack in response to 9/11 or the use of neutron bombs in Iraq, and he's the most inept, fundie, and militarily incompetent president the US is likely to elect for the foreseeable future, I'd say it's safe to let the US keep their nuclear weapons for another forty years or so.

The conditions weren't right for the USA to get away with a nuclear first strike against Afghanistan. Any use of nukes would have lost them UN backing which they were desperate to get at that point. Plus Bush didn't have them anyway. The neutron bombs were dismantled under Bush Snr as the article states.

And don't bet that Bush is the worst we've seen. People said the same about Reagan. :p

Quote
And the wartime use is irrevelant because what we're worried about here is nukes used in a preemptive strike or terroristic attack, not in wartime against an opponent who fired the first shots and in an attempt to prevent even more serious bloodshed by impressing upon them the utter futility of further resistance.

So hypothetically you'd have no objection to Iran being allowed to developing nukes if there was some way for the launch codes to remain with other more stable governments to be given to Iran if they were attacked by the USA for instance then?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: ssmit132 on August 13, 2008, 05:25:38 am
There was some explosion back in the early 1900s which had a blast yield of 30 megatons. Rumour is that a UFO exploded.

Tunguska Event. 1908.

Quote from: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunguska_Event)
The Tunguska Event, or Tunguska explosion, was a massive explosion that occurred near the Podkamennaya (Lower Stony) Tunguska River in what is now Krasnoyarsk Krai of Russia, at around 7:14 a.m. (0:14 UT, 7:02 a.m. local solar time) on June 30, 1908 (June 17 in the Julian calendar, in use locally at the time).

Although the cause is the subject of some debate, the explosion was most likely caused by the air burst of a large meteoroid or comet fragment at an altitude of 5–10 kilometres (3–6 miles) above Earth's surface. Different studies have yielded varying estimates for the object's size, with general agreement that it was a few tens of metres across.

Although the meteor or comet burst in the air rather than directly hitting the surface, this event is still referred to as an impact. Estimates of the energy of the blast range from 5 megatons to as high as 30 megatons of TNT, with 10–15 megatons the most likely - roughly equal to the United States' Castle Bravo thermonuclear explosion set off in late February of 1954, about 1000 times as powerful as the bomb dropped on Hiroshima, Japan and about one third the power of the Tsar Bomba, the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated. The explosion knocked over an estimated 80 million trees over 2,150 square kilometres (830 square miles). It is estimated that the earthquake from the blast would have measured 5.0 on the Richter scale, which was not yet developed at the time. An explosion of this magnitude is capable of destroying a large metropolitan area. This possibility has helped to spark discussion of asteroid deflection strategies.

Although the Tunguska event is believed to be the largest impact event on land in Earth's recent history, impacts of similar size in remote ocean areas would have gone unnoticed before the advent of global satellite monitoring in the 1960s and 1970s.

BTW: There is a reasonably solid rebuttal on Wikipedia in the same article area:

Thought about putting that in my initial post, but decided to trim it to just the criticism.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 13, 2008, 06:30:28 am
Yes. And you're the one making it! You're the one claiming that since Reagan never got the chance to be in a war where he'd use nukes the fact that he didn't use them means he could be trusted with them. You're the one claiming that the probability of past events is irrelevant.

Try that on again. You're either delibrately misinterpreting or not thinking it through, because they argue the probablity of past events is relevant...just like you are.

So hypothetically you'd have no objection to Iran being allowed to developing nukes if there was some way for the launch codes to remain with other more stable governments to be given to Iran if they were attacked by the USA for instance then?

I doubt you could make them secure enough from tampering for this situation to be viable, but if that were possible, then no, honestly I wouldn't.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: karajorma on August 13, 2008, 07:16:22 am
Try that on again. You're either delibrately misinterpreting or not thinking it through, because they argue the probablity of past events is relevant...just like you are.

They argue that the probability of past events is relevant to whether or not they could have actually occured. Therefore if something has a low probability of occurring it couldn't possibly have happened that way. I have no idea how you possibly see that as what I'm doing.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Flipside on August 13, 2008, 08:07:51 am
/me Wanders happily down memory lane...

Ahhh. Just like the old days ;)
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mars on August 13, 2008, 09:01:44 am
Well based on the reasonably dead horse trolling is that people keep kicking,
I had to request some more input based on such a smug and very little effort question.
But I'm glad you bring up the fact that you find my claims extraordinary.
All I am asking is what specifically seems unlikely or without evidence and contived if you will?
Don't say all of it, thats completely contrived and wreaks of pedantic trolling.
I do not mean any insult towards you or others here.
All I ask is a reasonable investment of time from both members invested for an enlightened conversation.


With all do respect, I gave your post approximately the respect it deserved. You ask for an enlightened conversation, and for that to work you can't just say odd things in disconnected logic that sort of kind of present an argument without anything to back it up. Previous posts didn't make statements outrageous enough to get to me, but in that particular posts, the majority of the arguments seemed kinda... well... made up.

Such tidbits such as: "You are talking about a party region where the princes make in excess of 30 billion a day." and "Myself, I want one of those coke a cola sized machines in my yard making hydrogen for my car from water and electricity." simply demand a source. If there's a machine that fits in my back yard that produces enough hydrogen to run my house, I definitely haven't heard about it. From my understanding it's difficult for a gas station sized object to produce enough hydrogen to run a soccer mom's car for a week, such as the one featured on Thomas Friedman's documentary "Green: The New, Red, White and Blue" on Discovery. Similarly $30bn dollars a day? Really?
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Kosh on August 13, 2008, 10:31:24 am
For all the money we've blown in Iraq we could have used it to invest in a real hydrogen economy/R&D. $1 trillion can go a long way to solving this problem.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: captain-custard on August 13, 2008, 12:17:14 pm
the whole issue for energy is going to stay stuck until we work on the main problem , the demand , we can build eco energy stations , nuclear non nuclear , green etc but if we don't change how we live ,how we use energy then we are always going to be fighting a loosing battle.

we need to look at the fundamentals of our design of houses and how we heat and light these areas this is as much an architects problem as a nuclear physicians,

why do we promote eco lightbulbs and still sell the old ones , we need to grow up and just use less......


personal choice comes with personal responsabilities


Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: KewlToyZ on August 13, 2008, 12:21:04 pm
Thanks for the response Mars,
I'll get some linked information and detail where I specifically got these ideas floating around in my head tonight.
The 30 billion dollar income figure I got from some article about a year ago that astonished me as well.
It will take some time to find, but I'll do the research for proof after work.

The Hydrogen pumping systems are from a company working in the Netherlands on their Hydrogen super highway from one end of the country to the other. I beleive they were $30,000 and there were some volume concerns with them. I'll definately get that info as well tonight.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: MarkN on August 13, 2008, 02:33:53 pm
Hydrogen has a major issue with use in that the hydrogen fuel cell, the only currently planned use of it, is very difficult to build (and requires a protonic membrane for the best use, and the company which own that technology are not selling the rights). Thoretically, it isn't that much more diffuicult to generate methane, which could be used in more conventional engines (most importantly gas turbines/jet engines) as well as possibly in simpler fuel cells. this currently seems to be the way the industry is going at the moment, although I think a liquid fuel such as mathanol or ethanol would be more practical for storage, especially in vehicles. the real probalem with this style of system is that it doesn't produce any power, and it extremely inefficient as well, and while this may not be an issue with nuclear power, with renewables it most certainly is.

As for using less power, my flat seems to be doing well. It has been raining for most of the day, there is no heating on (not even the water heater), it's 8:30 pm, and I still have the door open to keep the temperature down to a reasonable level. There again, it was only built a year ago..
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mika on August 13, 2008, 03:13:12 pm
Quote
To be fair, it's really not a scientist's problem anymore so much as it is an engineer's.

Not actually. I think it's an applied research problem, and there is a lot of physicists in applied research field, though you have never heard of them. In my list it would turn to engineering problem when they have verified the first prototype and noted that it is working.

Mika
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 13, 2008, 03:16:32 pm
Not actually. I think it's an applied research problem, and there is a lot of physicists in applied research field, though you have never heard of them. In my list it would turn to engineering problem when they have verified the first prototype and noted that it is working.

Insofar as I know, we have built working fusion reactors, but we've not managed to break even in terms of energy input vs. energy output.
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Mika on August 13, 2008, 04:12:40 pm
Quote
Insofar as I know, we have built working fusion reactors, but we've not managed to break even in terms of energy input vs. energy output.

I should have phrased the earlier little bit better, but as long as you don't produce surplus you don't have a working prototype of a power plant. As long as that doesn't happen there is bound to be physicists around. It could be that the fusion on ground level is impossible for some reason not known at the moment (though quite unlikely).

Mika
Title: Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Post by: Kosh on August 13, 2008, 08:08:17 pm
Not actually. I think it's an applied research problem, and there is a lot of physicists in applied research field, though you have never heard of them. In my list it would turn to engineering problem when they have verified the first prototype and noted that it is working.



IIRC JET was able to for a couple of seconds. The ITER utilizes many advances in plasma control and superconducting technologies and theories, many of which  are being tested in China (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAST)
Insofar as I know, we have built working fusion reactors, but we've not managed to break even in terms of energy input vs. energy output.