Author Topic: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?  (Read 13487 times)

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Offline ssmit132

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Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Bridget Woodman of Greenpeace said "Pursuing nuclear fusion and the ITER project is madness. Nuclear fusion has all the problems of nuclear power, including producing nuclear waste and the risks of a nuclear accident." "Governments should not waste our money on a dangerous toy which will never deliver any useful energy," said Jan Vande Putte of Greenpeace International. "Instead, they should invest in renewable energy which is abundantly available, not in 2080 but today."

French environmental groups said the project ITER, was "dangerous", "costly", and "not a job generator". A French association including about 700 anti-nuclear groups, Sortir du nucléaire (Get Out of Nuclear Energy), also claimed that ITER was a hazard because scientists did not yet know how to manipulate the high-energy deuterium and tritium hydrogen isotopes used in the fusion process.

The ITER project confronts numerous technically challenging issues. French physicist Sébastien Balibar, director of research at the CNRS said We say that we will put the sun into a box. The idea is pretty. The problem is, we don't know how to make the box.

A technical concern is that the 14 MeV neutrons produced by the fusion reactions will damage the materials from which the reactor is built. Research is in progress at IFMIF to determine how and/or if reactor walls can be designed to last long enough to make a commercial power plant economically viable in the presence of the intense neutron bombardment. The damage is primarily caused by high energy neutrons knocking atoms out of their normal position in the crystal lattice. A related problem for a future commercial fusion power plant is that the neutron bombardment will induce radioactivity in the reactor itself. Maintaining and decommissioning a commercial reactor may thus be difficult and expensive. Another problem is that superconducting magnets are damaged by neutron fluxes.

Rebecca Harms, Green/EFA member of the European Parliament's Committee on Industry, Research and Energy, said: "In the next 50 years nuclear fusion will neither tackle climate change nor guarantee the security of our energy supply." Arguing that the EU's energy research should be focused elsewhere, she said: "The Green/EFA group demands that these funds be spent instead on energy research that is relevant to the future. A major focus should now be put on renewable sources of energy." French Green party lawmaker Noël Mamère claims that more concrete efforts to fight present-day global warming will be neglected as a result of ITER: "This is not good news for the fight against the greenhouse effect because we're going to put ten billion euros towards a project that has a term of 30-50 years when we're not even sure it will be effective."

A number of fusion researchers working on non-tokamak systems, such as Robert Bussard and Eric Lerner, have been critical of ITER for diverting funding that they believe could be used for their potentially more reasonable and/or cost effective fusion power plant designs. Criticisms levied often revolve around claims of the unwillingness by ITER researchers to face up to potential problems (both technical and economic) due to the dependence of their jobs on the continuation of tokamak research. An informal overview of the last decade of work was presented at the 57th International Astronautical Congress in October 2006.

I know that Greenpeace and other environmental groups are trying to save the planet, and I commend them for that, but I find it annoying that they think a FUSION reactor is as dangerous as a fission reactor. The only by-product from a fusion reactor is helium. Aren't they supposed to be much safer?

(Unless the tritium leaks out, and I'm sure that's not as bad as uranium and stuff.)

EDIT: From their website,

Quote from: Greenpeace
Fusion energy - if it would ever operate - would create a serious waste problem, would emit large amounts of radioactive material and could be used to produce materials for nuclear weapons. A whole new set of nuclear risks would thus be created.

 :wtf:
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 04:38:05 am by ssmit132 »

 

Offline Flipside

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
I think it depends how 'clean' the reaction is. From what I understand, the only residue from Fission in an ideal situation is water, or possibly hydrogen, but possibly 100% efficiency is impossible in the reactions? I'm more guessing than anything else to be honest.

That said, I'm not certain about the concept of neutrons knocking down a building, if these things can take out high-density concrete, then I'm somewhat concerned what they would do to organic matter, and if that were the case, then why is Fusion the Shangri-la of power-creation. I think there might be more to it than is being argued there.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
If Total Annihilation taught me anything growing up. . .it's that one reactor is better than six-hundred solar panels. As long as no pesky Core get near it.
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Offline Flipside

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Well, I haven't played TA, but a sniper cordon usually helps ;)

Though I'll agree, what we need is not to build a Tech 1 blob, but upgrade the stuff we have to Tech 3.

 

Offline ssmit132

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
I think it depends how 'clean' the reaction is. From what I understand, the only residue from Fission in an ideal situation is water, or possibly hydrogen, but possibly 100% efficiency is impossible in the reactions? I'm more guessing than anything else to be honest.

That said, I'm not certain about the concept of neutrons knocking down a building, if these things can take out high-density concrete, then I'm somewhat concerned what they would do to organic matter, and if that were the case, then why is Fusion the Shangri-la of power-creation. I think there might be more to it than is being argued there.

There's already neutron bombs available, and they're designed to take out organic matter only.

I still want to know how Greenpeace came about with the quote, though. Unless you can make nukes out of helium, which is already available anyway and so if it's possible is not a new risk anyway. Fusion bombs? Could they use the by-products produced?

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
What's the most wasteful energy production method ever?

 

Offline ssmit132

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Snail, I'm not talking about how efficient or inefficient fusion power is, I'm talking about how dangerous it is.

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Ethanol..... All that alchahol :(


I dunno, i'd say oil / petrol. It took millions of years to make, only a century+ to bleed it dry.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
I dunno, i'd say oil / petrol. It took millions of years to make, only a century+ to bleed it dry.
Well, I sure as hell don't want anybody burning my corpse for energy...

  

Offline Jeff Vader

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Well, I sure as hell don't want anybody burning my corpse for energy...
I do. It would be far more cost-effective to burn the dead for energy instead of searching for a place in the ground where you can dump the corpse in a big, boring box.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
I do. It would be far more cost-effective to burn the dead for energy instead of searching for a place in the ground where you can dump the corpse in a big, boring box.
I'd like my corpse to be featured on MythBusters!!!! Oh yeah!!

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
I'd like a Judge Dredd style Re-cyc to be implemented. That would be green :yes: Reaction mass wise, i dunno which is more productive, fission or fusion.
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
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-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
The only radioactive waste that a nuclear reactor would produce is the reactor itself and to lesser extent the radiation shielding surrounding it. The neutron flux will cause isotope changes in anything that it hits. The amount of neutrons per reaction will be a pretty important factor on how fast the reactor will become so radioactive that maintenance and structural integrity start to suffer, but it still takes a long, long time as far as I know - and the fission based reactors are equally susceptible to this phenomena, as they too produce a neutron flux. Fusion reactors have theoretical capacity for so much bigger energy yields that the neutron-induced radioactivity won't really be an issue, since the nuclear fuel itself will become helium-4 or some other stable isotope, depending on the reaction.

Besides, some of the neutron flux will actually be used to produce tritium - by simply covering the insides of the reactor with lithium-6.

What comes to risks of nuclear accident, a fusion power plant is inherently more safe than any fission based power plants. First, the amount of fusion material in the reactor is a lot lot less than in fission reactors. Secondly, the moment the magnetic confinement of plasma goes down, the reaction will stop; the only energy released would be the thermal energy of the plasma inside the reactor. There won't be more energy produced after the reaction is interrupted. And what energy is released won't be sufficient to do any serious harm; at best it'll scorch the insides of the reactor a bit but not by much, they are after all designed to absorb the radiation from the reaction and conduct it as heat to generate kinetic energy in turbines and further electricity by generators... Thirdly, the fusion material converts into safer material (easiest reaction to achieve produces Helium-4), unlike in fission reactors where the fissile materials change into quite a bit more hazardous elements. A terrorist attack would cause the same things - the reaction would just stop, it wouldn't become a hydrogen bomb, and the only damage would be from the attack itself.

Fourthly, fusion reactor technology is very very different from fusion bomb technology, unlike fission reactor technology which has a lot to do with fission bombs - mainly in the sense that fission reactors can be used to make fission bomb materials (plutonium), whereas fusion reactors produce Helium, and the tritium that are stored at the fusion power plant cannot directly be used to just put together to make a bomb, unlike Plutonium. Anyone who steals tritium is not very sensible, as there's really no way to use it as such - it's chemically hydrogen so it will seep through metal tanks in time, and it's active so it will change into deuterium (IIRC) by time, so you can't even store it for sustained periods of time. Whereas like I said, if you're mad enough you can theoretically steal two clumps of plutonium, go into some city with them in separate suitcases, then take them out and slam them together. Boom.

To me it appears as this Bridget Woodman is not very well versed in how fusion reaction and reactors work... which makes Greenpiece look like ass (not an uncommon occasion).

By the way, didn't one of the previous GP leaders completely change their mind about fission reactors some years ago?


As to most wasteful way to produce energy, I'd have to say coal. It produces incredible amounts of waste (CO2, particle emissions, oxides of sulphur and nitrogen) compared to even hydrocarbons like methane or oil-derivative fuels...

However, as far as inefficiency goes, I would say that using energy to make hydrogen, then use that in fuel cells to produce electricity scores pretty high as far as I know.

Fusion reactors will naturally have pretty low efficiency for a while, but due to small amounts of fuel used and negligible waste production, it would be more sustainable than fossile fuels and fission reactors.

Also, burning human carcasses for energy wouldn't be very efficient at all, because fresh bodies have about 75% water in them. You would need to dry them first, resulting in about 75% weight loss (a hundred kilogram body would result in 25% combustable material) and unless you either use a lot of energy to dry them, you would end up with rotting corpses... on the other hand you could use the gases released in the process as well. Hmm. How about being grinded and dumped into a bioreactor? :nervous:
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
I don't trust a word Greenpeace has to say on scientific matters. I don't think I've ever seen them get it right even when it's been on subjects I actually agree with them about.

Look at the case of the Brent Spar as an example of this kind of nonsense. Especially their insistence on removing and dismantling old oil rigs even though they are a home for endangered coral species.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
I think they just annoy people for the hell of it.

 

Offline Mefustae

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
I think they just annoy people for the hell of it.
Years ago, Greenpeace actually stood for something and really tried to make a difference. Then, the old order slowly got pushed out and replaced with borderline survivalist, extremist nutjobs. Don't get me wrong, Greenpeace have a lot of good ideas, but they're full of so many morons and reactionary wankers who understand so little of what they're doing, instead making up for their ignorance by doubling their resolve.

So much wasted potential. Greenpeace could have reached out and truly made a difference, but instead they've become a bloody punchline.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
The name "Greenpeace" itself is already starting to look stupid.

Whether they like it or not, they can't have the best. CNG is currently too expensive and hard to obtain for most people, but is clean. Fossil fuels are the easiest to use, but are running out, and nuclear fuel will give us all the energy we need, but at the risk of meltdown. Biofuel may be an alternative...but how much energy can you get from a pile of poop? It's all plant starch and methane.

Whatever anyone says, I don't think there is a way to stamp out the use of nuclear power forever. It's probably the best viable energy source to fossil fuels.

It is said that nuclear fusion produces more power than nuclear fission, but I don't think anyone has managed to control nuclear fusion yet. Controlling nuclear fission was done back in the 1940s to produce the A-Bomb.

By the way, isn't hydrogen power more or less the same as nuclear fusion?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 07:28:12 am by Androgeos Exeunt »
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Offline Spicious

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
You seem to be a bit behind the times.
Natural gas is the fossil fuel methane and isn't actually clean.
Nuclear fusion reactors have been built, they just don't produce a surplus of power yet. They don't meltdown.
You also neglect solar thermal and geothermal, but thankfully you didn't mention the travesty that is 'clean coal'.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
Yeah, I know I overlooked those three, but I read that they need lots of space to generate good amounts of power or only work in specific regions of the world. However, as per your post, I am a bit behind the times.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Fusion reactors - as dangerous as fission reactors?
As far as natural gas goes, fossilic methane and biologically generated methane are a bit different in the sense that burning methane from bioreactors does not increase the amount of carbon dioxide currently in the carbon cycle, whereas burning ancient methane does release the ages ago bound carbon just like burning coal and oil will do.

Same with burning biomass (also known as wood); it's "clean" in the sense that burning plants doesn't load the atmosphere with carbon dioxide emissions (since they only recently bound the carbon to themselves from the CO2 in the air in the first place), but they do release other emissions like particles (also known as smoke I believe) and oxides resulting from incomplete combustion of all the other material in plants than carbon based stuff. And, of course, it takes a lot of land area to grow significant amounts of biomass, at the expense of local wildlife... and resulting in the land becoming incapable of sustaining plant life after some time of exploitation, resulting in need of fertilizers, resulting in loading the nearby bodies of water with nutrient overload potentially disrupting the ecosystem for good.
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