Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: General Battuta on August 15, 2008, 03:50:52 pm
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It's often speculated that GTVI allowed the Iceni to escape Allied forces on several occasions so that they could allow Bosch to field-test ETAK (and subsequently capture it, which the player achieves late in the FS2 campaign.)
What if this plan was a complete success? Is it possible that the GTVA communicated on a crude level with the Shivans between the destruction of the first Sathanas and the ultimate destruction of the Capella star? Could this communication explain some of the events?
What if Bosch or the Security Council somehow agreed to sacrifice Capella to the Shivans? It is reasonable to suggest that the Shivans like or need nebula environments. Perhaps Capella was a tithe to the Shivans, either forestalling a fullscale invasion or creating a viable Shivan habitat close to GTVA space as a prelude to future contact. (The former variation of this theory is somewhat similar to some of the X-Files mythology.)
Obviously, there is no conclusive evidence for or against this theory -- it's merely speculation. Perhaps it'll produce something interesting in someone's brain! At the very least, it does manage to incorporate most of FS2's loose ends.
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It's often speculated that GTVI allowed the Iceni to escape Allied forces on several occasions so that they could allow Bosch to field-test ETAK (and subsequently capture it, which the player achieves late in the FS2 campaign.)
When did the GTVA capture it? The Iceni self destructed before they could get any materials offboard as far as I remember.
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They would have had to construct and deploy a relatively new technology very rapidly, and while they would have had some kind of idea of how it worked, I doubt they actually got a full set of technical information.
I also really can't see the GTVA, given what the Shivans have done to the member races, being willing to talk to them. Or for that matter, even seeing the point to trying to talk to them in the time period they would have (possibly) had the capablity: what could the GTVA really have offered that the Shivans and their 80+ Sathanas juggernauts weren't capable of taking with ease?
There is an additional and very important reason not to talk to the Shivans: it would give away the fact that the GTVA can understand them, which would make future monitoring of and combat against them much harder. Given what the Shivans did aboard the Iceni, it's possible that they themselves realized this made them vunerable and attempted to destroy all evidence of the ETAK device at a more fundemental level prior to destruction of the Iceni itself. (Perhaps due to the Iceni's heavily-armored nature and apparent heavy redundancy and compartmentalization, they did not feel sure that destroying the ship would definitively remove all evidence.) So far as we know, the Shivans remain blissfully ignorant of the GTVA's ability to eavesdrop on them. Total mastery of an enemy's communications can bring vast benefits, and this is an advantage that would not be discarded lightly by Terran strageists (who would remember such battles as Tannenburg and Midway). Only if the situation approached total panic would the military likely be inclined to look favorably on attempting to talk with the Shivans, and it does not seem that things ever got that bad at the command level.
I've speculated before that Bosch discovered the Shivans couldn't be swayed from wiping out the GTVA, and in an effort to save humanity (as he's always been in this, at least in his head, for the good of his species) lied to them about GTVA capablities and force size, provoking the Shivans to destroy the Capella star as a means of sealing themselves off from a supposed Terran-Vasudan superpower. (Which would make the apparent sacrifice of a number of juggernauts a more rational decision, as the concept of acceptable losses tends to get bigger compared to the alternative of possible annihilation; the same philosophy drove the GTVA plan to collapse the Capella nodes. It would be ironic if both sides were thinking much the same thing.)
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How would the Supernova seal off the jump nodes to Capella? I'm not being critcal, but I thought the only way to shut a node was to set up a mass explosion within the corridor, unless the Sathanii weapons are capable of Subspace cataclisms.
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Well, I think transforming Capella into a cloud of superheated gas would dissuade people from sending ships through it :)
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The expansion rate means that the Gas actually cools incredibly quickly, the system would be accessible a few years after the explosion. Though, of course, the radiation might be a problem, but considering that GTVA hulls can withstand bombs with ratings that could crack a planet open like an egg, I suppose that depends on how strictly you interpret in-game canon.
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I would have thought the changes in gravity would mess things up a bit.
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I would have thought the changes in gravity would mess things up a bit.
Considering the GTVA was able to operate anywhere in a nebula considered light-years wide, it seems the local gravity requirement is low.
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Besides, travelling system to system doesn't totally depend on subspace - subspace only makes it faster.
If the Shivans wanted a return, they could just use the old travel through space in a span of about 700 years until the GTVA's new Alpha 1 destroys them.
By the way, do you think that the Alpha 1 in FS2 is the same in FS1? Alpha 1 being maybe 20 at the time of TGW would still be like to witness the events of FS2.
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The GTVA may not have ETAK, but they have its specifications, which should be good enough.
It is inhuman to sacrifice an entire star system to destruction. :wtf:
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It is inhuman to sacrifice an entire star system to destruction. :wtf:
Compared to losing multiple ones and your species being wiped out?
For that matter, Capella's evacuation had been ongoing since the first Sathanas, so it's reasonable most of the population had already escaped.
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By the way, do you think that the Alpha 1 in FS2 is the same in FS1? Alpha 1 being maybe 20 at the time of TGW would still be like to witness the events of FS2.
The original Alpha 1 was trapped in the Sol system, the one in Silent Threat is presumably Bosch, so I would hazard to guess it's a different one in FS2
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It is inhuman to sacrifice an entire star system to destruction. :wtf:
Compared to losing multiple ones and your species being wiped out?
For that matter, Capella's evacuation had been ongoing since the first Sathanas, so it's reasonable most of the population had already escaped.
Yeah, that adds to the conspiracy nature of it -- although of course it is reasonable to keep evacuating Capella, you could argue it was because the Security Council suspected more juggernaughts were on the way. While I agree with what you said earlier, NGTM-1R, the nature of Freespace canon is that it accepts multiple interpretations. If a campaign writer wanted to assert that the GTVA had negotiated with the Shivans, handing over Capella as a new nest, a supernode, or a resource field -- in exchange for a brief ceasefire or further communication -- I think they could justify it with the facts at hand.
I do disagree with the idea that the GTVA would not want to give up the advantage of being able to eavesdrop on Shivan comms. It's one thing to speak in the same medium as the Shivans; quite another to understand their language to the point where you could extract useful intelligence. Of course, you could make an argument for your idea. I'm willing to accept either way. Just throwing out ideas!
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And the Shivans in FS2 didn't even try to wipe out the GTVA.
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And the Shivans in FS2 didn't even try to wipe out the GTVA.
Yeah, if they did, they wouldn't have blown up Capella. They'd send Saths everywhere and level everything.
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And the Shivans in FS2 didn't even try to wipe out the GTVA.
Yeah, if they did, they wouldn't have blown up Capella. They'd send Saths everywhere and level everything.
OR
they could've despatched several of their Sathani (whose to say they didnt build millions of those things during the Reconstruction Period.. what else do Shivans do in 32 Years?), to take down the Star which in turn
A) Provides nebula gasses to the Shivan gas miners (they mine nebula gasses remember), and whose to say they don't have an economy, and that they're economy relies on nebula gasses
and
B) Takes care of those annoying little bastards who call themselves the GTVA, and that douschebag who thought he could talk Shivan
If they had a lot of those Sathani (They're economy and manufacturing methods may be different, allowing many of these monsters to be built), they could effectively sacrifice a dozen for a massive economic revival and 'peace'
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By the way, do you think that the Alpha 1 in FS2 is the same in FS1? Alpha 1 being maybe 20 at the time of TGW would still be like to witness the events of FS2.
The original Alpha 1 was trapped in the Sol system, the one in Silent Threat is presumably Bosch, so I would hazard to guess it's a different one in FS2
Forgot about that. Seems like a reminder to re-play FS1 again! :D
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I would have thought the changes in gravity would mess things up a bit.
Considering the GTVA was able to operate anywhere in a nebula considered light-years wide, it seems the local gravity requirement is low.
I thought that in the tech room Jump nodes are noted to be formed by gravity wells, specifically around planets, and other location in the solar system.
And my guess is that the Nodes in the nebula were held in place by the stars there. (Every mission in the nebula featured a star, so I assume that that nebula is old enough for new stars to be forming, and hence new nodes.)
So I would assume that the supernova of Capella's sun would cause the current nodes to collapse, but that new ones would form when new suns were created out of the nebula left by Capella.
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Well, I might remind you that both nodes in the Nebula were at least partially non-natural (Knossos, anyone ;)).
But IIRC intrasystem jump drives require gravity to operate, so there must be at least some gravity in the nebula.
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Personally I believe that the Capella node didn't destabilize until the Nereid went through, but that's just me.
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Personally I believe that the Capella node didn't destabilize until the Nereid went through, but that's just me.
Same here. I'm a layman when it comes to subspace physics.
In any case, I was thinking that if the Nereid departed from Vega a full three minutes after the supernova, surely that must mean that the jump node from Vega to Capella was still usable at that time.
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I'm not convinced that Knossos-enforced subspace nodes need anything to work. I don't remember seeing any big gravity-like things in the region beyond the nebula (with the Shivan comm nodes). Could be that the Ancients built the subspace portals specifically to travel to distant places, unreachable with normal node travel, and that's how they were able to travel to "galaxies where [they] had no place."
Given that you need to be on the Knossos side to activate the portal, every Knossos encountered was on the GTVA side, and the Shivans only started coming in force until after the portals were open, and there was no "off" button, I'm inclined to think that the Knossos portals were a pretty big deal for Ancients' fleet transport. Also that they were pretty damn durable and big.
And I say that "the Shivans only started coming in force" because the NTC Trinity wouldn't have lasted two minutes against a pack of Dragons, and it doesn't seem likely that the ship got severely damaged just because its subspace drive got clogged up with nebular gas. Sure, it's possible, but I'm inclined to think that the Trinity found some scrappy Shivan forces and just barely escaped or held them off, and planned to report their 'success' to Bosch. And then the Shivans started a recon-in-force.
The Shivans' tactics - hanging around the Knossos portal - and the late appearance of the Sathanas, despite the Shivans' traditional offensive tactics also makes me think that the Shivans were coming from somewhere pretty distant.
So either the Knossos #2 survived a supernova, or it was built when the nebula was still a nebula.
Intrasystem jump drives are mentioned as needing a gravity field to operate, but the ability to use intrasystem jump drives could be a side effect of having two subspace nodes in close proximity to one another. The Psamtik did experience severe navigation issues just by being in the proximity of a Knossos.
To get technical, the coolness factor of nebula missions offsets the gravity requirements of intrasystem jump drives.
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I'm not convinced that Knossos-enforced subspace nodes need anything to work. I don't remember seeing any big gravity-like things in the region beyond the nebula (with the Shivan comm nodes).
:nervous: Especially not the group of planets there.
To get technical, the coolness factor of nebula missions offsets the gravity requirements of intrasystem jump drives.
:yes:
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:nervous: Especially not the group of planets there.
There are no planets in Gamma Draconis or in the nebula.
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There are no planets in Gamma Draconis or in the nebula.
...in the region beyond the nebula (with the Shivan comm nodes).
:nervous: Especially not the group of planets there.
:rolleyes:
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Tru dat, but it still is a valid point to note that there aren't any planets in the nebula. Or Gam Drac. Surely the planets beyond Knossos 2 cannot stabilize the node between Gam Drac and the nebula
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:rolleyes:
:(
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:rolleyes:
:(
:nervous:
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:rolleyes:
:(
:nervous:
:D
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Tru dat, but it still is a valid point to note that there aren't any planets in the nebula. Or Gam Drac. Surely the planets beyond Knossos 2 cannot stabilize the node between Gam Drac and the nebula.
Why not? GDrax hasn't got any planets, and yet there is a fully stable and normal node to Capella. Gravity wells on 1 side of the node seem to do the trick well enough.
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Tru dat, but it still is a valid point to note that there aren't any planets in the nebula. Or Gam Drac. Surely the planets beyond Knossos 2 cannot stabilize the node between Gam Drac and the nebula.
Why not? GDrax hasn't got any planets, and yet there is a fully stable and normal node to Capella. Gravity wells on 1 side of the node seem to do the trick well enough.
Let me try en grafiska presentation:
Capella - Gam Drac - Nebula - The Twilight Zone
(Planets) (Planets)
The attention is focused on the node between Gamma Draconis and the nebula system. No (confirmed) planets on either side of the node. Just the (deceased) Knossos in Gam Drac.
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Gamma Draconis definitely has no planets, Petrarch said so. Nebulae probably don't have planets in them unless I missed something in physics. So the Knossos is really the only thing holding the node together.
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Gamma Draconis definitely has no planets, Petrarch said so. Nebulae probably don't have planets in them unless I missed something in physics. So the Knossos is really the only thing holding the node together.
Star form inside nebula, planets form around stars!
The thing that bugs me about the capellan supernova......the Shivans are referred to as the great Preservers by the Ancients right? Well, blowing up a star doesn't presrve much! An entire ecosystem wiped out (Capella has numerous planets, many of which could have supported life (but not as we know it). It may be very primitive now (FreeSPace2 time), but the point about the Shivans being preservers is they destroy older races for newer races to come to the fore. Blowing up Capella pretty much did for that system!
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The thing that bugs me about the capellan supernova......the Shivans are referred to as the great Preservers by the Ancients right? Well, blowing up a star doesn't presrve much! An entire ecosystem wiped out (Capella has numerous planets, many of which could have supported life (but not as we know it). It may be very primitive now (FreeSPace2 time), but the point about the Shivans being preservers is they destroy older races for newer races to come to the fore. Blowing up Capella pretty much did for that system!
By the end of FS1, we basically know what the Shivans are doing (preserving the balance by blowing up people who are too powerful). But by FS2 that whole great destroyers and great preservers analogy doesn't cut it as there are whole load of other questions to answer.
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The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.
From the Freespace Wikki.
I assumed that the gravity fields were generated by the Stars. And that if a planet was in the system, it's gravity would drag the Gavity Well/Node closer to it.
This allows nodes in all systems, as well as the nebula.
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However, the movement of a decent portion of the mass of the star would alter the gravity within the nebula formed, and that supposedly has some influence on nodes.
Supernovae are good for getting elements heavier than iron.
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Star form inside nebula, planets form around stars!
The thing that bugs me about the capellan supernova......the Shivans are referred to as the great Preservers by the Ancients right? Well, blowing up a star doesn't presrve much! An entire ecosystem wiped out (Capella has numerous planets, many of which could have supported life (but not as we know it). It may be very primitive now (FreeSPace2 time), but the point about the Shivans being preservers is they destroy older races for newer races to come to the fore. Blowing up Capella pretty much did for that system!
The universe is a lot stranger than you realise. ;)
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Gamma Draconis definitely has no planets, Petrarch said so. Nebulae probably don't have planets in them unless I missed something in physics. So the Knossos is really the only thing holding the node together.
Star form inside nebula, planets form around stars!
The thing that bugs me about the capellan supernova......the Shivans are referred to as the great Preservers by the Ancients right? Well, blowing up a star doesn't presrve much! An entire ecosystem wiped out (Capella has numerous planets, many of which could have supported life (but not as we know it). It may be very primitive now (FreeSPace2 time), but the point about the Shivans being preservers is they destroy older races for newer races to come to the fore. Blowing up Capella pretty much did for that system!
Supernovae are the only source of the heavy elements necessary for life. It's possible that one of the Shivans' purposes is to trigger artificial supernovae to ensure that the universe remains a rich climate for life to arise.
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Gamma Draconis definitely has no planets, Petrarch said so. Nebulae probably don't have planets in them unless I missed something in physics. So the Knossos is really the only thing holding the node together.
Star form inside nebula, planets form around stars!
The thing that bugs me about the capellan supernova......the Shivans are referred to as the great Preservers by the Ancients right? Well, blowing up a star doesn't presrve much! An entire ecosystem wiped out (Capella has numerous planets, many of which could have supported life (but not as we know it). It may be very primitive now (FreeSPace2 time), but the point about the Shivans being preservers is they destroy older races for newer races to come to the fore. Blowing up Capella pretty much did for that system!
Supernovae are the only source of the heavy elements necessary for life. It's possible that one of the Shivan's purposes is to trigger artificial supernovae to ensure that the universe remains a rich climate for life to arise.
... so that they can return to kick the butt of that life before it arises too high.
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Capella - Gam Drac - Nebula - The Twilight Zone
(Planets) (Planets)
The attention is focused on the node between Gamma Draconis and the nebula system. No (confirmed) planets on either side of the node. Just the (deceased) Knossos in Gam Drac.
The nebula has already expanded for hundreds, if not thousands of lightyears, thus spanning several solar systems (don't argue about that, it's true). And although the planets are probably scorched by the nearby (super)nova, they still are planets with gravity.
And Shiku has a good point here too, though I'd like to add (yes, this is a personal, but reasonable guess) that planets may help nodes to form easier.
I assumed that the gravity fields were generated by the Stars. And that if a planet was in the system, it's gravity would drag the Gavity Well/Node closer to it.
This allows nodes in all systems, as well as the nebula.
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The thing that bugs me about the capellan supernova......the Shivans are referred to as the great Preservers by the Ancients right? Well, blowing up a star doesn't presrve much! An entire ecosystem wiped out (Capella has numerous planets, many of which could have supported life (but not as we know it). It may be very primitive now (FreeSPace2 time), but the point about the Shivans being preservers is they destroy older races for newer races to come to the fore. Blowing up Capella pretty much did for that system!
By the end of FS1, we basically know what the Shivans are doing (preserving the balance by blowing up people who are too powerful). But by FS2 that whole great destroyers and great preservers analogy doesn't cut it as there are whole load of other questions to answer.
o rly?
That explanation for the Shivans' motives is itself tied in with the Ancients' considerable ego. Even though the Ancients explain the Shivans as being 'the great Destroyers' and 'the great Preservers', we don't actually know if their motives are anything of the kind. The Ancients' explanation for the Shivans' motives may have just been wistful thinking based on circumstantial evidence.
So the Ancients may be right...but only from a certain POV.
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o rly?
That explanation for the Shivans' motives is itself tied in with the Ancients' considerable ego. Even though the Ancients explain the Shivans as being 'the great Destroyers' and 'the great Preservers', we don't actually know if their motives are anything of the kind. The Ancients' explanation for the Shivans' motives may have just been wistful thinking based on circumstantial evidence.
So the Ancients may be right...but only from a certain POV.
Minor point, but I think Alpha 1 is the only guy who calls them the Great Preservers.
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The nebula has already expanded for hundreds, if not thousands of lightyears, thus spanning several solar systems (don't argue about that, it's true).
Care to explain how you've come across this truth? (Ignoring that lightyears are a measure of distance, not time)
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The nebula has already expanded for hundreds, if not thousands of lightyears, thus spanning several solar systems (don't argue about that, it's true).
Care to explain how you've come across this truth? (Ignoring that lightyears are a measure of distance, not time)
He probably got from Mystery of the Trinity.
This nebula could be ten or twenty light years in diameter. Finding a single ship would be impossible.
That doesn't say much, though, since that was a pilot's view and not Intelligence.
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The nebula has already expanded for hundreds, if not thousands of lightyears, thus spanning several solar systems (don't argue about that, it's true).
Care to explain how you've come across this truth? (Ignoring that lightyears are a measure of distance, not time)
He probably got from Mystery of the Trinity.
This nebula could be ten or twenty light years in diameter. Finding a single ship would be impossible.
That doesn't say much, though, since that was a pilot's view and not Intelligence.
I guess that Alpha 2's comment was slight exaggerated just to emphasise how difficult it was to go around hunting for single Shivan ships.
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The nebula has already expanded for hundreds, if not thousands of lightyears, thus spanning several solar systems (don't argue about that, it's true).
Care to explain how you've come across this truth? (Ignoring that lightyears are a measure of distance, not time)
The nebula is said to be about 8000 years old, and all nebulae we know now HAVE expanded since their birth (that's why they're nebulae) and are still expanding. You do know what most nebulas come from, right?
Allright, perhaps not hundreds or thousands of lightyears, but even 10-20 ly is big enough to span some nearby star systems, with planets. And yes, I know what lightyears are, thank you.
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The Crab Nebula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_Nebula), according to Wikipedia, is ~1000 years old (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1054) and about 11ly in diameter. So it's perfectly reasonable for a nebula to be 20 ly in diameter, although if it expanded at the same rate as the Crab Nebula, that seems a little small.
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To be fair, the nebula in FS2 is incredibly dense
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To be fair, the nebula in FS2 is incredibly dense
Well, so are the asteroid fields. Let's just assume that the nebula is a normal nebula.
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To be fair, the nebula in FS2 is incredibly dense
Well, so are the asteroid fields. Let's just assume that the nebula is a normal nebula.
Then I'd be incredibly scared if I was in Kappa wing's shoes. :)
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:wtf: Why?
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Well, all nebulae will definitely reduce your sensor range, and considering that you're almost out there alone, think about it: no wind, only your breathing and the sound coming from your ship's thrusters and systems.
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Regarding gravity wells in nebulae, don't forget that the white dwarf/neutron star/black hole left after the creation of a nebula is a massive object in and of itself, certainly far more massive than any number of full-fledged stars in existence at this very moment. Presumably, even ignoring the mass contained in the nebular gas, such an object would be more than capable of creating the gravity well necessary for intrasystem jumps, as well as supporting whatever sort of weird gravimetric subspace fluctuations that give rise to intersystem nodes.