Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kosh on February 09, 2009, 10:40:35 pm
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Seriously these people just shouldn't have children unless they can properly take care of them (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29110391)
Nadya Suleman, the mother of the octuplets born last month, gets $490 a month in food stamps, the Los Angeles Times reported Monday evening. Three of her first children also get federal supplemental security income because they are disabled, the Times reported.
Suleman's publicist, Michael Furtney, confirmed the information.
During an interview with Ann Curry on the TODAY show, Suleman denied being on welfare. (Msnbc.com is a joint venture of NBC Universal and Microsoft.)
Suleman told NBC News correspondent Ann Curry in an interview that she was not receiving welfare. Furtney said Suleman didn't consider the food stamps and SSI to be welfare.
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Seriously the fertility doctor should be brought up on charges, there is no reason this woman should be having eight additional kids when she already has six and lives with her parents in a small home.
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Seriously the fertility doctor should be brought up on charges, there is no reason this woman should be having eight additional kids when she already has six and lives with her parents in a small home.
I don't think the doctor can control how many kids come out.
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He can if he implanted them artificially in the first place.
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It's just like Africa. Only with more kids. And stupider people. And a government that actually helps the family somewhat.
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More kids to keep the house spick and span. This is the problem of todays fertility treatments. More than enough kids. Certainly wont help over population issues either. I hope the family can move into a bigger house eventually and have a good extended family household.
Also the human body isn't really meant to go through the stress of carrying so many kids at once. The doctor does not control how many kids come out. Fertility treatments really ramp up the chances of a mother having a kid since that's what they're designed to do. I don't know if doctors are doing anything to not ramp up the chances of somebody just wanting a kid or two as opposed to 8.
People today getting together and wanting to have kids...i wonder if future parents cringe at the idea of having so many kids should their wife need fertility treatments to be able to get pregnant (i know i wouldn't like that possibility, a much lower amount of kids is more than enough trouble for parents as it is after they have come into the world).
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well, should things get tight she can always kill one of them and feed it to the others.
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well, should things get tight she can always kill one of them and feed it to the others.
Isn't that illegal?
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well, should things get tight she can always kill one of them and feed it to the others.
Isn't that illegal?
Not in Nuke's world
It's just like Africa. Only with more kids. And stupider people. And a government that actually helps the family somewhat.
True IMO, seriously, 8 KIDS! More to love my ****in ass!
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She already had 6. I could understand it if it was a her first kids or even her second, but when she already has 6?!?!? God bless those children--they'll need it!
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I'd say that the children should be removed from her care, but that wouldn't help at all. They'd still be living on the government's dime and they'd be tangled up in the fostercare system... At least the woman's parents are involved. They seem pretty sane.
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At least the woman's parents are involved. They seem pretty sane.
Your basing this on?
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It's been on the news for a while. There was a statement from the mother in another article where she was talking about how there was no way her daughter should be having more children, but she can't really do anything about it.
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Seriously the fertility doctor should be brought up on charges, there is no reason this woman should be having eight additional kids when she already has six and lives with her parents in a small home.
I had this case come up at uni regarding medical ethics. Really the doctor's not to blame. His jurisdiction ends at putting the eight embryos in to increase the chance of at least one surviving. It's up to the patient to have them removed later, and if she wants to carry them to term...well the doctor can advise her on what would medically be the best thing to do, but some people either don't know what's good for them, or have their own ideas of what to do with their body.
It's quite frustrating when you're a doctor and you've got a patient who doesn't want what's best for them.
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Seriously the fertility doctor should be brought up on charges, there is no reason this woman should be having eight additional kids when she already has six and lives with her parents in a small home.
I don't think the doctor can control how many kids come out.
Well looks like somebody agrees with me...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29057426/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29057426/)
@ Darius she used the same clinic for all her children, it's not as though they wouldn't have known this woman was doing something that was medically dangerous, and arguably beyond her ability to support.
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You go through a medical screening process before that type of procedure can be done. How can any doctor (in there right mind) overlook the fact that she has three kids already. How in the world can they tend to 14 kids? Might as well have everyone send them money because welfare is going to be sending them a nice check every month and this is the type of thing our taxes pay for...
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You go through a medical screening process before that type of procedure can be done. How can any doctor (in there right mind) overlook the fact that she has three kids already. How in the world can they tend to 14 kids? Might as well have everyone send them money because welfare is going to be sending them a nice check every month and this is the type of thing our taxes pay for...
Arguably, it's because the doctor isn't ethically allowed to make social decisions for his patient.
Seriously the fertility doctor should be brought up on charges, there is no reason this woman should be having eight additional kids when she already has six and lives with her parents in a small home.
I don't think the doctor can control how many kids come out.
Well looks like somebody agrees with me...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29057426/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29057426/)
@ Darius she used the same clinic for all her children, it's not as though they wouldn't have known this woman was doing something that was medically dangerous, and arguably beyond her ability to support.
And as you can see, the number of embryos that finally come out as kids isn't exactly predictable.
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What they should have done was manipulate the embryos so that one got all the dominant soldier genes while another got the recessive genes and abort the other six.
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What they should have done was manipulate the embryos so that one got all the dominant soldier genes while another got the recessive genes and abort the other six.
(http://www.dreamagic.com/vivianrose/twins.gif)
Well, maybe in fifteen or twenty years, she can start her own football team.
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What they should have done was manipulate the embryos so that one got all the dominant soldier genes while another got the recessive genes and abort the other six.
You forgot the balanced mix between the two with the absurd name.
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OMFG! OCTUPLETS?!?! Isn't that illegal?
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OMFG! OCTUPLETS?!?! Isn't that illegal?
Only in China.
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Seriously the fertility doctor should be brought up on charges, there is no reason this woman should be having eight additional kids when she already has six and lives with her parents in a small home.
That sets a precedent for doctors to be brought up on charges for abortion. Not good.
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You forgot the balanced mix between the two with the absurd name.
That's not until later. Solidus is actually a perfectly legitimate word too. :p
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You forgot the balanced mix between the two with the absurd name.
That's not until later. Solidus is actually a perfectly legitimate word too. :p
Yes, it is, I ran into it in chemistry first.
But it's absurd.
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(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/249270409_664e6841fa.jpg?v=0)
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The clown car philosophy of replenishing the worlds population has a big flaw.
(http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/3605/249270409664e6841faze9.jpg)
It's usually the next odd dumb kid out of the bunch of smarties who also believes that he must replenish the world's population.
EDIT: Apparently i have a very hard time righting writing complete sentences when making that image today.
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That pic only has 13 kids in it. OLD.
The family now has 18. :D
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Wow, their dumb.
So is suleman or however is spelled. It seems she had 8 extra kids out of selfishness. Wasn't the first 6 children selfish enough?
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Most children are born out of selfishness.
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She shouldent be having more kids when shes already on foodstamps. What an idiot.
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A lot of people shouldn't do a lot of things.
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Someone should take her on a vacation to cannibal island. I mean, she has plenty of free range roamers.
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Wow, their dumb.
*facepalm*
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ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/19/2496094.htm?section=justin)
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Angela Suleman is more than $23,000 behind in payments on her house in the Los Angeles suburb of Whittier, an agency spokesman said.
Angela Suleman also has complained publicly of the financial burden [...].
[...] according to a publicity firm hired by the family.
:wtf:
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I could raise some money for her by hosting a baby-punting contest.
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I mean, I'm not pro-capital punishment or anything, but what would be the harm in just removing the safety labels off of knives and such for just a week or so? Problems like these would just care of themselves.
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I mean, I'm not pro-capital punishment or anything, but what would be the harm in just removing the safety labels off of knives and such for just a week or so? Problems like these would just care of themselves.
Oh yes
....err.....Survival of the Fittest.
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Cannibal island would be much better. Nothing would go to waste.
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Cannibal island would be much better. Nothing would go to waste.
I see someone had the economic crisis in mind.
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Suleman could then build a budget house out of milk cartons.
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Suleman could then build a budget house out of milk cartons.
That's the stuff
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I sorta wish I could afford to donate to the woman, and I hope other people do. She's dumb and definitely has made a number of huge mistakes, but those babies need all the help they can get. :[
It could be worse. She seems like she really does care about her kids. She just apparently isn't smart enough to realize how having more kids affects the chances of all of them...
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I sorta wish I could afford to donate to the woman, and I hope other people do. She's dumb and definitely has made a number of huge mistakes, but those babies need all the help they can get. :[
It could be worse. She seems like she really does care about her kids. She just apparently isn't smart enough to realize how having more kids affects the chances of all of them...
Or she acknowledges that but is too hard on the bottle w/ever to actually help it.
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I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt: she's just an idiot.
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I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt: she's just an idiot.
She is foolish. If she were ignorant (which remains to be seen), then she wouldn't have made use of artificial insemination (or whatever it was).
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Artificial insemination isn't secret technology. I decided that's how I was gonna have kids when I was four. And that was before I learned that the sun is a star.
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If i have kids. It's not going to be for a while. 3 max, and also if i happen to get married with a good environment for kids. Doing this by the time i'm 30 seems like a solid plan for me.
Maybe i'll end up like my dad. Didn't decide with my mom to have me until he was 40 (my dad's 8 years older than my mom)
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My mum always says she didn't want kids until she got pregnant. She's a liar. She hates kids.
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For all we know suleman will take all of the donations towards being selfish again. Maybe becoming an alcoholic with the proceeds because instead of having a lot of kids to be loved by, now she wants to forget all her problems. :lol:
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Wouldn't the doctor have been able to object to her insane request on ethical grounds the same way a lawyer can not defend a client he finds morally repugnant?
I mean, I suppose she could attempt to sue the doctor, but I don't see who in their right mind would rule in her favor.
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Yes doctors can object to treating patients. I think the doctor that did get her artificially enseminated was an idiot. They didn't do any basic research or find out how many kids she had and that she's also of low income. Or maybe he did know all of this from asking questions, but did anyway because the doctor was a dip****.
If one doctor objected to artificially enseminating her, then she'd just find another doctor who wouldn't. Her search would be rather endless, she would eventually find a yes doctor. But, the way things work in reality, if a doctor rarely objects to performing a treatment then she'd find a second opinion pretty fast.
If the doctor did find it morally repugnant (i would also say high degree of motherly irresponsibility) and he did it anyway, then that was just a dumb **** doctor. Though, most likely she found a doctor first time around who just said yes.
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Just because the doctor did his job, doesn't make him stupid. He does need money to put food on the table, after all.
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Just because the doctor did his job, doesn't make him stupid. He does need money to put food on the table, after all.
I see your point, but don't they have some say over whether the patient should go through the procedure?
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Quite oviously this doctor should have said no. Screw his poverty implications, i'd rather be poor than unleashing an idiot on society. He should have said no. It's not like she wouldn't have been able to find another doctor who would say yes. Then again, any doctor saying yes to the procedure after reviewing her situation is a re****.
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Quite oviously this doctor should have said no. Screw his poverty implications, i'd rather be poor than unleashing an idiot on society. He should have said no. It's not like she wouldn't have been able to find another doctor who would say yes. Then again, any doctor saying yes to the procedure after reviewing her situation is a re****.
But don't you think that might have been against his ethical code as a doctor? He can't deny service based on his own personal prejudice, mayhaps.
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General, with all due respect, could you in good conscience, consent to this woman getting herself pregnant with another batch of children, considering she's not right in the head, is exerting herself beyond reason, and has no means to take care of the children other than to leech off the American taxpayers, just so you, the good doctor, can make a buck?
This isn't "personal prejudice", this is knowing the difference between right and wrong, accusations of seeming "judge-mental" be damned.
Hades, I find your reasoning to be flawed in this matter. Doctors have numerous patients. Not performing a non-essential (to life) requested procedure on some mentally-troubled person is going to send him to the poor house.
And even so, he's screwing more people over than he's helping.
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One question I have to ask. If she's so poor how the hell did she afford IVF in the first place?
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General, with all due respect, could you in good conscience, consent to this woman getting herself pregnant with another batch of children, considering she's not right in the head, is exerting herself beyond reason, and has no means to take care of the children other than to leech off the American taxpayers, just so you, the good doctor, can make a buck
No, you miss my point. It may be that he could be sued, or at the very least violate his own oaths or otherwise be held responsible, if he didn't provide a service. Or he could simply have believed it wasn't his place to discriminate -- instead, it was his job to provide service to whoever required it, and he couldn't morally do otherwise.
It has nothing to do with what I think, and please don't make it personal. I'm just floating prospectives.
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Doctors say no all the time to patients wanting certain stuff done that they shouldn't have.
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I'm not the person you have to convince. I'm not even arguing a point. I'm postulating reasons he might not have done it.
You don't have to convince me of anything. I'm throwing ideas out there.
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One question I have to ask. If she's so poor how the hell did she afford IVF in the first place?
That's a good question
I'm going to take a guess that she contributed to the current economic status by taking out a loan that she obviously couldn't pay back.
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To be fair: we don't know that. Although I think it was irresponsible of her, and her doctor, it could (very) theoretically have been a complete mistake.
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It may be that he could be sued, or at the very least violate his own oaths or otherwise be held responsible, if he didn't provide a service.
True, though it's a bit of a messy issue. Legally and ethically the doctor can't dictate what's going to be in the patient's best interest. It's ultimately up to the patient to decide what to do with his/her body. This falls under medical ethics: the patient has the right to refuse or choose their treatment. Likewise, this is combined with beneficience, that the doctor must act in the best interests of the patient. If the patient had said she was quite able to take care of the child (at that point in time there was no decision about keeping all eight of the embryos), then there would be no reason for the doctor to refuse to do the procedure.
The doctor would have taken steps to cover his own backside, such as statements from the patient indicating full responsibility for this action.
Doctors say no all the time to patients wanting certain stuff done that they shouldn't have.
Give me an example of this. The only time this would happen is if the procedure would do harm to the patient, and thus the doctor's legal obligation is to tell the patient all information they'll need to know to make their own decision.
Sure it might have been irresponsible of him, but doctors are human too, they can't be expected to know everything.
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My sister is a doctor, and she turns people away whenever they A) Request something outside her scope of practice B) Request something illegal C) If they request something harmful to themselves.
In all these cases, it doesn't stop the patient from going to another doctor, one who might do whatever it is, but the hope is that such doctors are extremely rare.
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It's unfortunate such doctors do exist, but if someone like that is found to deliberately do something wrong they'll (hopefully) be strung up in a noose by their medical board.
What field is your sister in Mars? GP?
EDIT: Actually I forgot that doctors can actually refuse to do a procedure for the reasons that Mars listed. It's when it falls into a grey area that the whole thing becomes a bit messy.
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It may be that he could be sued, or at the very least violate his own oaths or otherwise be held responsible, if he didn't provide a service.
True, though it's a bit of a messy issue. Legally and ethically the doctor can't dictate what's going to be in the patient's best interest. It's ultimately up to the patient to decide what to do with his/her body. This falls under medical ethics: the patient has the right to refuse or choose their treatment. Likewise, this is combined with beneficience, that the doctor must act in the best interests of the patient. If the patient had said she was quite able to take care of the child (at that point in time there was no decision about keeping all eight of the embryos), then there would be no reason for the doctor to refuse to do the procedure.
The doctor would have taken steps to cover his own backside, such as statements from the patient indicating full responsibility for this action.
Doctors say no all the time to patients wanting certain stuff done that they shouldn't have.
Give me an example of this. The only time this would happen is if the procedure would do harm to the patient, and thus the doctor's legal obligation is to tell the patient all information they'll need to know to make their own decision.
Sure it might have been irresponsible of him, but doctors are human too, they can't be expected to know everything.
Thank you, this is what I was driving at but I didn't have the expertise to elucidate.
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I wonder what will happen now that the father's all coming out of the woodwork...