Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Mobius on March 01, 2009, 01:02:03 pm
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I was wondering if creating a special skybox for simulated missions would be a good idea. A skybox full of grids, at least at the center, to represent a briefing/FRED like effect, would be very nice and hopefully easy to create. Other than that, an animated map serving as background would be very nice. Overall, the effect should be a very good one.
Since it's fairly doable, is the FSU team going to consider the idea? :)
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I wanna see this too! It's absurdly easy to do: just make a sphere, then make a black texture with a gray border, and UV map by face (with a 3x or 4x tiling factor.)
I've never used skyboxes before though so I've no idea how to actually use it in game.
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I was thinking more of...green grids.
Like what you see for Jump Nodes.
But yes, this would make simulations really look simulated. :nod:
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But when you are in training missions, you are in real space and using real weapons, so it doesn't make too much sense. For example, those drones you blow up are supposed to be real training materials. It is not a virtual simulation.
Why then at the beginning does it say Training Simulator Module TSM....blah blah blah :)
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But when you are in training missions, you are in real space and using real weapons, so it doesn't make too much sense. For example, those drones you blow up are supposed to be real training materials. It is not a virtual simulation.
:wtf:
Welcome to training simulator module TSM-103c, Class C qualification for the Myrmidon space superiority fighter. This module has been designed to acquaint pilots with basic targeting, throttle, and weapons systems.
TSM units are approved for use as part of the GTVA combat training program or as a review for qualified pilots. The TSM series is not intended as a substitute for actual field training.
...curses, too slow. :p
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Even if it is virtual reality, the point of that is to look like real space, making the gridlines pointless.
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Was it FS1 or FS2 that had the cargo container jump in by itself?
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FS1. I know for a fact because I played the demo so much before I got it proper.
Now destroy C-01A.
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But when you are in training missions, you are in real space and using real weapons, so it doesn't make too much sense. For example, those drones you blow up are supposed to be real training materials. It is not a virtual simulation.
As the others said TSM modules are simulated missions. Although pure field training wouldn't require a simulated skybox TSM modules would. They'd be a very nice addition, IMO... :)
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FS1 takes place in real space. FS2 says that they take place in a simulation, but I'm sure a simulation is meant to look as real as possible. For example, in a Driver's Ed. class, when you're using a computer simulation, they make the environment look realistic. Imagine how useful (or more useless) the class would be if there was no weather, sunlight, and that off-road drives exactly the same as on-road. I'd assume the concept applies to FreeSpace as well. After all, [V] didn't change the background. I agree they'd could be nice outside of the main campaigns, but they don't really in it.
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Well, actually, the idea isn't bad, it would look cool... yet here we are at the boiling point:
REALISM
or
EYECANDY
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I vote eyecandy! :D
Seriously there is nothing to say that It couldn't be in there and quite frankly I feel it would certianly add to the overall atmosphere of the game. Besides it would be nice effect to use in various other mods.
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quite frankly I feel it would certainly add to the overall atmosphere of the game.
I would think that adding grid lines in a training simulation would kill the seriousness of the game. And grid lines making games look pretty sounds pretty paradoxical.
By the way, the question shouldn't even be about eye candy or realism. Make a new skybox if you want. Just don't put it in as an upgrade.
EDIT: I just realized that this is in the FSU board and not the Mod. If the point is to add the skybox in the mediavps, then I must object.
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I would think that adding grid lines in a training simulation would kill the seriousness of the game. And grid lines making games look pretty sounds pretty paradoxical.
By the way, the question shouldn't even be about eye candy or realism. Make a new skybox if you want. Just don't put it in as an upgrade.
So, according to you, FRED's grid is not pretty? :rolleyes:
Please keep in mind that we're discussing a skybox here, not a whole new set of modified ships that should be used in simulated missions. All ships and effects will remain the same...it's the environment that will change. Also, I don't see why a simulated skybox wouldn't make use of nebulae, thus reducing the differences to the lack of stars(replaced by tech stuff of some sort) and the presence of a grid.
Also, if we really have to put it to a Eyecandy Vs. Realism issue, it's much more realistic to have the feeling of a simulation in a... simulation. :v: would have liked the idea, I guess...
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I'd like to see this also.
The grid could be used in terms of recording data or something. It could be used to help people analyze your simulation. Or some other technobabble.
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Well I consider the grid a good choice because it would remind briefings and command briefing anis(the ones showing parts of the starmap) for a more FS-ish effect...
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I like the idea -- yes, the TSMs in FS2 are definitely in virtual reality -- but it should be restricted to mods.
Think about it. This is many new players' first exposure to Freespace graphics and atmosphere. We want it to be dazzling, and that means nebula/starfield backgrounds.
Also consider all the people using FSOpen for the first time after having played Freespace before who'd come rushing in to report 'background bugs' involving an odd green mesh.
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Quite frankly, I don't understand why the should react this way unless they completely miss the point in dealing with simulated missions.
When I first played simulated training missions and then moved to the real thing, I wondered what the differences really were in terms of environment. There are high tech levels in FS, high enough to have "perfect" simulated missions, but well... please bear in mind that even during the FS era drone AIs aren't smart enough to compete with human pilots, ergo the presence of a special skybox would be justified.
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There are high tech levels in FS, high enough to have "perfect" simulated missions, but well...
...please bear in mind that even during the FS era drone AIs aren't smart enough to compete with human pilots, ergo the presence of a special skybox would be justified.
I don't see the connection.
Anyway, I think this is the kind of broad aesthetic alteration best left to mods. Dickering around with the retail campaigns is a dangerous business.
My first memory of Freespace is of being struck by the beauty of the nebulae during the training missions. I think it's a powerful sight and a statement of the game's aesthetic.
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NO! Launcher flags BAD.
IMO it's controversial enough that it could just be implemented in a separate VP, with the modified mission files, that can be dropped in to your MediaVPs directory if you want it. Like the radar icons.
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General Battuta: No one said that a simulated skybox map would replace nebulae. They'd remain where they are, the only difference is that instead of black space filled with stars you'd see something that gives the impression of a simulated environment. Also, it's only going to appear in what, 5 missions only? The other would keep the normal skybox, as usual.
High Max: Might be hard because the skybox is chosen via FRED and there's no apparent way to know if a given mission should make use of it or not. It's not even the case to set the simulated skybox for all training missions because they're not necessarily supposed to be simulated. There are training missions plus normal missions set as training ones. I'm not a coder myself but I'm afraid adding the option you proposed could be difficult.
On a side note, the skybox should be used in simulated multiplayer battles as well(not in all multiplayer missions, many of them are actually supposed to be "pure" and not simulated battles).
IMO it's controversial enough that it could just be implemented in a separate VP, with the modified mission files, that can be dropped in to your MediaVPs directory if you want it. Like the radar icons.
Interesting proposal... :)
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I have a skybox that is a green grid superimposed over a green starfield with (I think) asteroids and nebula patches. Unfortunately it's only 512x512 per texture.
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How about
Simulated skybox: Old FS2 retail stars/nebulae
Actual/Real mission skybox: The newer FSOpen backgrounds
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Hey guys, let's stop discussing and let's start doing something ;) ...
Adding a new starfield background is pretty easy for any skilled modder. So if someone wants to post an example/tweak, then please:
- Make the new 3DSimSkybox.pof (or whatever other name you want), with the tweaked background texture.
- Edit whatever missions you want (mainly training ones) in order to use it.
- Make a 00-patch.vp with all the files.
- Post it here.
It's not SO crucial. When we all see the effect we can start discussing if we would like to add it to Mediavp (although it's not canon so I feel it shouldn't go even if prettier) or even better, offer it just as an "un-official" tweak.
We should see it in game because there's a chance of this kind of background looking awful. I mean, nebulas and other mission backgrounds are drawn OVER the skybox. So the simulated reticle might look frankly weird...
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Speaking of the background, all we need is to add another sphere to the normal starfield.pof skybox model and texture it with the grid. That shouldn't override nebulae and stars, I hope... :)
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Speaking of the background, all we need is to add another sphere to the normal starfield.pof skybox model and texture it with the grid. That shouldn't override nebulae and stars, I hope... :)
I mean that the background nebulas you add in every mission through the background editor will be rendered OVER the "computerized" grid. And this effect could look quite fine or it could look quite odd...
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The effect doesn't necessarily have to be be wonderful, it's the fact that it represents a simulation to boost it.
How about adding a grid in the middle of the skybox, just like in FRED and briefings?
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How about adding a grid in the middle of the skybox, just like in FRED and briefings?
Is it possible? I don't know how skybox pof model exactly works.
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They're special models, which can be edited just like the others. Grids could be easily added. :)
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I'm not quite fond of the grid idea, but I would want a discernible simulator-style skybox, which is why the retail skybox in all its sparseness would look appropriate. All it could use is a little bit more stylization (pixelated sun/stars?), but I think grids are too "overkill" on the whole VR idea.
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The thing is, if it isn't overkill, you'd get people going "wats rong wif my fso y duz it luk funneh" and stuff...
I want Grids.
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I think it's dumb to make new players' first experience with FSOpen dry and unspectacular.
Those nebulae are really, really striking, after all.
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You're not getting it:
There are still going to be stars.
There are still going to be nebulas.
All I want added are a few green lines.
How exactly would that make it any less spectacular?
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I apologize. I was addressing sfried.
I am concerned the green lines will be incongrous and unnecessary, but that's a separate protest.
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I think it's dumb to make new players' first experience with FSOpen dry and unspectacular.
Those nebulae are really, really striking, after all.
You're not getting it:
There are still going to be stars.
There are still going to be nebulas.
All I want added are a few green lines.
How exactly would that make it any less spectacular?
I apologize. I was addressing sfried.
Good, it was damn time... :rolleyes:
I am concerned the green lines will be incongrous and unnecessary, but that's a separate protest.
Green lines? Have you ever used FRED or seen a briefing? They're white-grey...
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Well, line color is easy to change.
I don't think color is the issue here.
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Immediately subsequent to Droid's post was 'about damn time'? What should I have done, edited the apology into the first post you quoted? It was a simple miscommunication.
Anyway, I'm open to seeing how it looks ingame. Real-life simulators do tend to strive for veracity, so I'm not completely convinced a GTVA simulator would be any different...
Mobius, the projected HUD elements we've seen ingame so far have been green. I believe the only example we have is the jump node, but I may be forgetting something.
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Maybe do it as a standard nebula skybox (using LS's nebulae to maintain a sort of standard FSO look) overlaid with 80 or 90% opacity over a grid? So it'd still look like space, but also make it clear that you're in a virtual environment.
[EDIT]Whoops, didn't properly read the thread, looks like this idea (or at least something similar) has already been suggested. So count me as another vote for this method.
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I kind of think it would be rather absurd for a training simulator to have something so blatantly unrealistic as grid lines in the background. Actual flight simulators today are intended to duplicate the real experience of piloting an aircraft as closely as possible; I'm sure manufacturers would kill to be able to reproduce photorealistic graphics without the slightest hint of artificiality. For a training sim to intentionally add an artificial element into the scenario would defeat the entire purpose for which it was designed. Plus, when you stop and think about it, we're kind of flying in a simulator of a GTVA fightercraft ourselves, and last time I checked, I didn't see any grid lines out there. :p
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For a training sim to intentionally add an artificial element into the scenario would defeat the entire purpose for which it was designed.
Not if the purpose for which it was designed was to look awesome. :nod:
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For a training sim to intentionally add an artificial element into the scenario would defeat the entire purpose for which it was designed.
Not if the purpose for which it was designed was to look awesome. :nod:
...except it's not. As its name would suggest, it's designed to train people. :p
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I kind of think it would be rather absurd for a training simulator to have something so blatantly unrealistic as grid lines in the background. Actual flight simulators today are intended to duplicate the real experience of piloting an aircraft as closely as possible; I'm sure manufacturers would kill to be able to reproduce photorealistic graphics without the slightest hint of artificiality. For a training sim to intentionally add an artificial element into the scenario would defeat the entire purpose for which it was designed.
I said something along those lines. The gridline idea is silly and would make it look too much unlike the original missions. I agree. Plus, Volition never made it that way for a reason.
I believe I did as well. There is nothing remotely realistic nor simulating with grids in any forms of training with regards to flight simulations. Imagine how Flight Simulator would look if it had grids. Imagine if all FreeSpace missions had grids. That is a relevant concept because if FreeSpace didn't have grids to us, why would any training sim. be any different? Both are a simulations to us.
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Because, grids are pretty.
It makes them boring training missions more interesting.
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Not really. And even if it looked nice, which frankly I'm not convinced it would, there's design issues with implementing a grid in-game. Adding fine, uniform detail like that may conflict with GUI elements, other objects, and generally make things less visually coherent for the player. I also don't believe a functionless grid right out of pop-SF fits with the fairly grounded, militaristic atmosphere of Freespace.
It's not a bad idea, but I completely oppose adding it to the retail campaign. If Volition wanted gridlines I'm sure they would have built them in.
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Well-put, Ransom.
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Not really. And even if it looked nice, which frankly I'm not convinced it would, there's design issues with implementing a grid in-game. Adding fine, uniform detail like that may conflict with GUI elements, other objects, and generally make things less visually coherent for the player. I also don't believe a functionless grid right out of pop-SF fits with the fairly grounded, militaristic atmosphere of Freespace.
It's not a bad idea, but I completely oppose adding it to the retail campaign. If Volition wanted gridlines I'm sure they would have built them in.
QFT
I like it when people can give some good arguments for something.
So, I think that convinced people that gridlines lose here?
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But you could make a mission of someone playing on the arcade on an Arcadia... :lol:
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Sigh, as I've said earlier...using the retail backgrounds would do for training missions, considering
a)we could use the "older tech" as a basis for the simulation
b)a nice nod to the original when it was released
c)will surprise first timers once they play the actual first mission in FS2Open
d)it's already there
Plus, I think the backgrounds on the retail still hold themselves up pretty well, especially when compared to the original Freespace.
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Sigh, as I've said earlier...using the retail backgrounds would do for training missions, considering
a)we could use the "older tech" as a basis for the simulation
b)a nice nod to the original when it was released
c)will surprise first timers once they play the actual first mission in FS2Open
d)it's already there
Plus, I think the backgrounds on the retail still hold themselves up pretty well, especially when compared to the original Freespace.
This is silly. There's no reason to convince a million billion new users that some portion of their MVPs aren't working.
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Sigh, as I've said earlier...using the retail backgrounds would do for training missions, considering
a)we could use the "older tech" as a basis for the simulation
b)a nice nod to the original when it was released
c)will surprise first timers once they play the actual first mission in FS2Open
d)it's already there
Plus, I think the backgrounds on the retail still hold themselves up pretty well, especially when compared to the original Freespace.
Blegh. That old crap be ugly now...
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Why can't we just do it as a seperate VP, leave out the discussion off should we do it or not and just focuss on how we shall do it?
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Why can't we just do it as a seperate VP, leave out the discussion off should we do it or not and just focuss on how we shall do it?
Because threads in FSU Board connotes that they're recommended (though not necessarily, but even then, it's in the view of a lot of viewers), and the thread started out as wanting to include it in the mediavps.
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Which is not going to happen.
But I am more than willing to provide any technical creation assistance.
I'm not one that agrees with the idea, but it has enough of a merit or attraction for some people that it would be a shame to see nothing come of the idea.