Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: ssmit132 on April 08, 2009, 02:07:00 am
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Do we need to stop eating the oceans? (http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/editorial-090407-1.html)
I just wanted to know what you thought about this. I think he has a really good point, and he is talking about it from a sustainability point of view, which makes it sound as reasonable as phasing out fossil fuels and stopping chopping down the Amazon. :nod:
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Well, you could make this argument about every resource on the planet; Water, fuel, crops, animals, ores.
And if you look at things that way, the only real solution is KILL ALL HUMANS :nervous:
There was another article out saying that we have already breached the sustainable limit of humans on this planet, i.e. there are now too many people vs the # of resources on the planet.
The real trick is balance; We are omnivores after all!
Not eating one thing just means another thing will have the same problem, and we waste so much anyway which doesn't help matters.
I personally want us to accelerate the space program so we can leave this rock and go create new worlds to wreck! (And then get eaten by Shivans. ;))
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Fishermen get better fishing equipment, get better and larger trawlers, use floating factories to process the catch on site. All in all increasing efficiency by several orders of magnitude.
And then they wonder why have the oceans started to run out of fish... Gee... lemme think...
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the problem with fishing is that it is rape and pillage , no techniques used to help fish stocks stay high is used (with the exception of a few places in the world)
if you want to eat fish and feel ok about it go catch it and kill ityoreself , that way there will be no waste and no officials arriving at te docks and spraying the fish with paint to keep the price high.........;
basically we as a planet have to look at how we manage fishing with a return to smaller ships that cannot spend months at sea processing there catch , and to create fishereies that release fish into the ocean to help restock it
but as i mentioned earlier the only way to eat fish is to catch it yourself !
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We are advanced beings at the top of the food chain. We aren't simple like horses or cows. Horses and cows have a very simple diet and can't eat much anything else. We humans have to eat multiple different types of food in order to get all of our nutrients. Now wouldn't it be nice if we only at one type of food? It'd be a lot easier.
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We are advanced beings at the top of the food chain. We aren't simple like horses or cows. Horses and cows have a very simple diet and can't eat much anything else. We humans have to eat multiple different types of food in order to get all of our nutrients. Now wouldn't it be nice if we only at one type of food? It'd be a lot easier.
it would also aid with our mass extinction........
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if you want to eat fish and feel ok about it go catch it and kill ityoreself ,
Ironically I used to think exactly the opposite, since many people go out and catch fish themselves for leisure.
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The oceans have been completely raped, the fish stocks have plummeted, entire ecosystems have collapsed.
It really cannot be stressed enough that the current large-scale fishing has pretty much destroyed the seas.
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Sorry, but I still want my sea kitten every once in a while. That article may have some grains of truth in it, but overall it's written far too alarmistic for me to take it seriously.
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Long had we been the destroyer.
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id like to see the end of factory trawlers, all theyre good for is making fish sticks and other such abominations posing as seafood. id rather pay a little more and get higher quality sea food. the real problem is people need to learn how to ****ing coock, stop eating at fast foos joints and out of boxes. beer batter, it works.
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I'd like to see an end to whaling and shark fishing (or whatever people call it <_<).
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I'd like to see an end to whaling and shark fishing (or whatever people call it <_<).
:doubt:
And I'd like to see an end to people eating beef! It's unethical! :rolleyes:
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It's humanity in a nutshell find something good, abuse it to the point where it is no longer useful, and then complain that they've run out and no-one will do anything to help them, when it was their responsibility.
I'm not a vast fan of fish anyway, I eat occasionally, but very rarely, but with the supplies of North Sea Cod dropping to frightening levels, an with Tuna, Mackeral and Salmon all headed in the same direction through over-fishing, yes, we need to learn moderation, fish is a vital food supply, we cannot simply stop, but we do need to get some hard and fast international laws in place. Then, of course, you have to worry about the livelihoods of Fishermen who get paid by how much they catch.
The big danger is that countries are very funny about 'international waters' and 'territorial waters', the borders on land are pretty hard and fast, but there have very nearly been wars over where a countries influence extends into the ocean (UK and Iceland nearly came to blows about that a good few years ago). That's why these rules need to be international, and apply to every ocean, but the chances are that Nordic countries, which rely heavily on the income, and Japan, who, despite being the most modern country in the world, still go and hunt whales for fat which is no longer needed, would simply boycott such a rule, and there's limited powers to enforce them.
Edit: The thing is, 60 years ago, a fisherman used old equipment and was trying to earn enough to keep the house and feed the family, nowadays, he/she is using Mass-Trawling devices and the objective is to line the pockets of a corporation, which is a far hungrier beast.
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I'd like to see an end to whaling and shark fishing (or whatever people call it <_<).
:doubt:
And I'd like to see an end to people eating beef! It's unethical! :rolleyes:
Well... i don't see a problem IF there are enough whales to be whaled... however i kinda doubt that.
On the shark fishing.. After getting sharks then ripping their fins off and tossing rest of the shark back to sea just because Chinese want shark fin soup as their delicacy is something that i find very offensive.
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Yeah, but don't go railing on about the Zhong Guo Ren being the only offenders. That's all I wanted to say.
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It's the ultimate disgrace. How we treat the element which made life on this planet possible, the element that created us.
That said, I'm pretty sure humanity doesn't have the capability to actualy "destroy" the oceans (before wiping itself out, that is).
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It's the ultimate disgrace. How we treat the element which made life on this planet possible, the element that created us.
There are a lot of people in Asia. And if they're just as hungry as I am on a daily basis, they probably eat a lot of fish.
Funny enough, this will probably become a genuine problem in the next couple decades, as its already phasing into pop culture. A vegan friend of mine (I don't take vegans seriously, ever) really went off on me one night when we were in a biergarten in Vienna after I suggested she could at least get a salmon with her brew. Like, she got really heated about it. So.. it might actually be true.
Not that I care... I don't really like fish anyway...
PS: If you guys want to do some serious research on this topic, I suggest watching "The Deadliest Catch" on Discovery channel to get a feel of what REAL Alaskan Crab fishing is like.
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It's the ultimate disgrace. How we treat the element which made life on this planet possible, the element that created us.
That said, I'm pretty sure humanity doesn't have the capability to actualy "destroy" the oceans (before wiping itself out, that is).
Sort of like oil. There's plenty left, it's just the fact that getting to it costs more than it would be worth. Also, snail is going to bring the wrath of Kara down upon him for saying Chink :rolleyes:
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We have a clambake every year for my birthday. Those pricks can go suck the muzzle of a loaded shotgun.
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Sort of like oil. There's plenty left, it's just the fact that getting to it costs more than it would be worth. Also, snail is going to bring the wrath of Kara down upon him for saying Chink :rolleyes:
NO U
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I'd like to see an end to whaling and shark fishing (or whatever people call it <_<).
:doubt:
And I'd like to see an end to people eating beef! It's unethical! :rolleyes:
could I instead eat you instead? :D
hey, sharks are, like, REALLY tasty :hopping:
as an appetiezer for my roast beef!
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The point is all these stupid guys are all rattling on about how China and Japan should all be b& from international waters because they are catching fish.
Stupid hypocrites.
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Nope i never ranted only of the China and Japan.. Just the shark fins are one of the best examples of how to overfish and waste resources that you can find.
As for the rest the European fishermen should be blamed just like the rest.. There recently a documentary on problems of the people living in western Africa (Morocco/Saharan coast) where European fishermen have moved since the catches on the northern waters became too small. I doubt US fishermen are any better.
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The point is all these stupid guys are all rattling on about how China and Japan should all be b& from international waters because they are catching fish.
Stupid hypocrites.
No, it's just that whales have already been made endangered by whaling already, it's about as cruel as clubbing baby seals, since they harpoon them and skin them alive if I recall correctly, and it's illegal (not to mention their pretence that it's for 'scientific research' - really, if you're getting whales to eat them or get whale fat, why not just say so? I mean, people are going to get up you anyway, so you might as well tell the truth). It's a similar matter for sharks, but maybe they could just, you know, take the fins of sharks that have been caught already to make flake... I don't know.
Anyway, it's not just Japan that has a whaling industry, it's Iceland and Norway as well, if I recall correctly. Although I don't think they make excuses like the Japanese government. (I don't want to offend anyone here :nervous:)
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I don't eat fish because it is too expensive, I foresee this trend expanding in the future.
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None of this applies to me. I try to make the world a better place for everyone by only eating Pirahnas.
Nobody has thanked me yet, but as an altruist I don't need recognization.
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Heh, now if you ate them live, one on one, in their own environment, then I'd be impressed...
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i long for a world where humans have to resort to canibalism to survive
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I'm not a huge sea food fan...I only eat fish on rare occasions. But fish is well recognized as an important part of our diet. Probably because most human settlements until fairly recently (relatively speaking) were along the waterways and oceans and many of the primary food sources were fish and other types of seafood. We're well adapted to eating the stuff.
Should we stop completely? No. But the problem is that there are too many people and far too few fish. Fishing needs to be tightly controlled and selectively done. It has to evolve like forestry. You can't clearcut a forest without totally screwing up the eco system but you can selectively cut some trees and ensure conditions are present for future regrowth. Same has to be done with everything else that we're doing. And really...there are far too many people on the planet now.
Population management is going to be required before too long. But that is much less of a problem in the developed nations so the real challenge is to work with the developing nations. Once their standards of living go up...birth rates will plummet to something more sustainable. Thats the only way as I see it.
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Population management is going to be required before too long. But that is much less of a problem in the developed nations so the real challenge is to work with the developing nations. Once their standards of living go up...birth rates will plummet to something more sustainable. Thats the only way as I see it.
We could always start putting birth control medication in bottled water, and then run a news scare on flouride.
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or we could start launching nukes
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Population management is going to be required before too long. But that is much less of a problem in the developed nations so the real challenge is to work with the developing nations. Once their standards of living go up...birth rates will plummet to something more sustainable. Thats the only way as I see it.
It is unfortunately a two sided problem. The poor peoples of the world need to stop squirting out babies at such egregious rates.
The rich nations of the world need to own up to their side of the issue and start addressing the overconsumption issue. Third world countries should not have to check their population growth just so we fatasses can continue to own a car apiece and two computers and commute twenty miles to work everyday.
I am not saying overpopulation is not a major issue. But it would be unfair, not to mention wholly dishonest of us, to place the burden of sustainability on the shoulders of the less developed nations. It will still be awhile before the South starts sucking up Western levels of energy per capita, or crapping out comparable levels of pollution. We must also focus on lowering our levels of intake and our effect on the environment.
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PS: If you guys want to do some serious research on this topic, I suggest watching "The Deadliest Catch" on Discovery channel to get a feel of what REAL Alaskan Crab fishing is like.
First - Where did you spring from? :)
Second - I think you just suggested the Discovery Channel for serious research, and now I want to cry a little :(
Sort of like oil. There's plenty left, it's just the fact that getting to it costs more than it would be worth.
Not really. Oil is a non renewable resource. Fisheries aren't, if they're properly managed and we get rid of the more destructive forms of fishing (Drag nets, trawlers etc.)
The problem is that while research has shown steadily declining fish stocks, data from the fishing companies has shown ever increasing catches. That's by definition unsustainable.
The article rails on aquaculture as well, but that's prinicpally IMO because it's currently being run very badly. Ultimately though, it's the only way we're going to both have fish long term and give the oceans the respite they need to recover for a little while.
As for whaling, I'm against it, but as much because the bloody Japanese are doing it in Australian waters, and worse yet in what's supposed to be a defended government whale sanctuary. If it was elsewhere, my opinions might be different, but as it stands I'm angry for political reasons, and that's not going to change.
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PS: If you guys want to do some serious research on this topic, I suggest watching "The Deadliest Catch" on Discovery channel to get a feel of what REAL Alaskan Crab fishing is like.
First - Where did you spring from? :)
Second - I think you just suggested the Discovery Channel for serious research, and now I want to cry a little :(
Sort of like oil. There's plenty left, it's just the fact that getting to it costs more than it would be worth.
Not really. Oil is a non renewable resource. Fisheries aren't, if they're properly managed and we get rid of the more destructive forms of fishing (Drag nets, trawlers etc.)
*MINI-MEGA-SNIP*
[devil'sadvocate]Fishing companies run drag-nets through a really large Alaskan sea/lake/thing (I can't recall the name or area, and searching for 'Alaskan Fisheries' leads to the horror that is The Internet) often, and its population is still increasing.[/devil'sadvocate]
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[devil'sadvocate]Fishing companies run drag-nets through a really large Alaskan sea/lake/thing (I can't recall the name or area, and searching for 'Alaskan Fisheries' leads to the horror that is The Internet) often, and its population is still increasing.[/devil'sadvocate]
Can't comment without a lot more data, but I'd suspect that if this is happening there'd be circumstances that don't apply to other parts of the world. Can't pin down exactly what, but it could be any number ofthings, such as
- Energy dynamics of arctic waters allowing for very heavy fishing at certain times of the year (energy and nutrients work very differently in the ant/arctic to the majority of the world due to the long day/ short day dichotomy and the low temperature)
- The difficulty of making direct comparisons between marine and lacustrine environments
- Possible governmental control of the fishery (much easier in a lake than the open ocean)
- The specific species that they're exploiting (factors like the age at which they're taken, their growth rate and breeding frequency can have a huge impact on the viability of large scale fishing)
- Diversity in the lake (low diversity often allows massive numbers of a specific organism - so massive that human activity might not affect their breeding significantly) (Look at Shark Bay in WA as an example - it's a big hypersaline region that's absolutely chock to the gills with a very small number of species in very large numbers).
- Bad data (I wouldn't put it past certain corporate interests to fund and then knowingly slant research at this one specific site, and then use that research to justify massive overfishing in other areas. Similar stuff happens all the time, in almost every industry - I doubt fishing'd be any different).
One of the few biology subjects I really enjoyed was all about this stuff (sustainability and whatnot), so a little more info and I might be able to pin it down for you.
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Population management is going to be required before too long. But that is much less of a problem in the developed nations so the real challenge is to work with the developing nations. Once their standards of living go up...birth rates will plummet to something more sustainable. Thats the only way as I see it.
It is unfortunately a two sided problem. The poor peoples of the world need to stop squirting out babies at such egregious rates.
The rich nations of the world need to own up to their side of the issue and start addressing the overconsumption issue. Third world countries should not have to check their population growth just so we fatasses can continue to own a car apiece and two computers and commute twenty miles to work everyday.
I am not saying overpopulation is not a major issue. But it would be unfair, not to mention wholly dishonest of us, to place the burden of sustainability on the shoulders of the less developed nations. It will still be awhile before the South starts sucking up Western levels of energy per capita, or crapping out comparable levels of pollution. We must also focus on lowering our levels of intake and our effect on the environment.
And you're absolutely right...I didn't go all in depth on the subject but there are quite a few issues of course. The developed nations will have to deal with overconsumption issues. I think we can solve that through technological knowhow and awareness so long as the governments of western nations continue to think about environmental issues.
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PS: If you guys want to do some serious research on this topic, I suggest watching "The Deadliest Catch" on Discovery channel to get a feel of what REAL Alaskan Crab fishing is like.
First - Where did you spring from? :)
Second - I think you just suggested the Discovery Channel for serious research, and now I want to cry a little :(
1st: The depths of spring quarter inactivity. Don't worry, I'm sure I'll find something better to do soon enough. Good to see you're still alive though. How're things?
2nd: I did it for the lulz. Really though, if you ever watch THE DEADLIEST CATCH you will understand how awesome it is.
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Been watching that myself a bit, I just keep thinking 'I could never ever like crab that much...'
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1st: The depths of spring quarter inactivity. Don't worry, I'm sure I'll find something better to do soon enough. Good to see you're still alive though. How're things?
Eh, alright. My job got eaten by the recession, so I'm back at Uni for a year to hide from the worst of it and try to, you know, actually graduate. A degree is a useful thing to have in my field... :nervous: But, all that said, tis pretty cool - having real fun this year and actually finishing my assignments, which is a new combo for me. What about yourself?
2nd: I did it for the lulz. Really though, if you ever watch THE DEADLIEST CATCH you will understand how awesome it is.
I do watch it (my flatmate is a merchant seaman, so any time it comes on the remote gets claimed) and yes, it's very awesome. :nod:
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1st: The depths of spring quarter inactivity. Don't worry, I'm sure I'll find something better to do soon enough. Good to see you're still alive though. How're things?
Eh, alright. My job got eaten by the recession, so I'm back at Uni for a year to hide from the worst of it and try to, you know, actually graduate. A degree is a useful thing to have in my field... :nervous: But, all that said, tis pretty cool - having real fun this year and actually finishing my assignments, which is a new combo for me. What about yourself?
Right on. I thought you were dunzo with school though already? Or are you getting your masters? Last I left off, you were going off to some geo/mining operation to be some hired smart guy for them. Geological surveyor maybe? Guess not ha. I've got a year left in college, and then I'm back to the real world as well. Horrifying thought, that.