Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mobius on April 29, 2009, 04:46:06 pm
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Sentencing people to death in FS represents a purely militaristic feeling which is somewhat close to reality. I wonder, however, if at the time of FreeSpace 2 humanity would still rely on death penalties to solve problems.
Even now the validity/effectiveness of death penalties is questioned, and the number of countries that refuse it is increasing at an encouraging rate.
If we don't consider canon episodes like Bosch's anger towards the CO of the Sevrin, what do you think a civilized government and its military would be using when dealing with guilty people? Do you really think death penalties will be of any use in the future?
IMO, it depends on the situation. Although the mankind featured in FS2 is supposed to be much more advanced than us, death penalties could still be used in a number of situations, like (very) high treason. Overall, however, I doubt it'd be widely used because, IMO, it's always better to let people reveal as much as possible about the "issues" they were involved in. I don't see the point, for example, in sentencing a captive member of an opposing faction so early - interrogating him/her for a prolonged period of time may be of tactical importance.
Not to mention how captives can be exchanged with prisoners, other captives, and "favors". Imagine something like Bosch's request when he asks to jump unaided to Sirius.
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Try shooting your wingmen and check out what happens.
Other than that, I'd say, if it fits in your campaign...
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I asked for a theoretically plausible within the FS Universe. No reference to campaigns. :)
Even shooting wingmen may not be enough to sentence someone to death shortly after the mission. A wise Command, in theory, should try to find out what happens to pilots who go mad and react accordingly.
During the mission, however, shooting down a traitor may have a vital importance - an operation can't be disrupted by a single pilot.
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So, you're saying...criminals deserve a trial?
Judging by the general 'gritty realism' of FS on a military level, I'd say summary court-martials are not out of the question.
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The overall civilian feeling towards capital punishment doesn't really matter in FS, because you're in the military at a time of war. So if you open fire on your wingmen then you will be treated as a traitor and dealt with because you risk the mission.
Theres nothing to stop Commanders learning all they can about a certain situation and then executing. That's what hearings and trials are far (AFAIK).
Bosh's anger at a certain CO can't really be taking into account because he is in most respects de facto leader of the NTF, and a working legal system within the NTF would be unlikely. Therefore his word is God in a certain respect.
As for the idea of trading captives, I'd assume that the GTVA doesn't negotiate with terrorists (NTF). Real life situations like this have also happened in the past of course, I believe Hitler tried to trade a number of Jewish people in return for military trucks and petrol from the Allies but they refused out right.
In FS it would weaken the GTVA's position if they were seen acknowledging the NTF through diplomatic means.
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Absolutely. Very few countries do not have laws on the books for the use of the death penalty in espionage and treason cases. (Point of fact, I checked, the US, France, and Germany still have laws on the books for use of the death penalty in desertion cases, but none of them would ever actually use it. Soldiers are expensive to train.) The current Universal Code of Military Justice specifies death or life imprisonment for murder or rape commited in time of war.
The GTA/PVE spent 14 years at war, which generally leads to a tightening of laws and harsher sentencing. That happened with both World Wars as an example.
Prisoner exchange is unlikely. Governments have drifted away from it and I see no compelling reason why they would go back.
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Plus keep in mind... The two foes of Terrans were other species.
Premeditated Treason against Humanity should be punishable by death.
Later, with the GTVA, the foes are Shivans only. So same level of Treason against the two allied races is punishable by death.
Why do you want to feed, clothe, care for, and guard traitors you can never ever trust again? The time, money, and resources are not logical.
Seriously, I'd trust a mass murderer probably, before I'd trust a traitor. Especially if you can reason with the guy. "Hey man, I would never kill a person for those damn Shivans. Can we work a deal here?" :)
Of course I am the Shivan's inside man and thus love to direct attention from myself with my vocal "anti-traitor" views...
(All glory to the Brood Queen) - something I picked up from Drinky Crow... :)
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If someone shot me repeatedly without trying to stop... I don't think I would simply go
"Okay okay... let us discuss why you are doing this... please stop... your damaging my hull.. c'mon now... stop it..."
I would do what they do. SCREW YOU ******** YOU ARE GOING DOWN
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I don't see why not. Capital punishment has existed for thousands of years, I can't imagine it'll be gone for good in another three hundred or so.
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Point of fact, I checked, the US, France, and Germany still have laws on the books for use of the death penalty in desertion cases, but none of them would ever actually use it. Soldiers are expensive to train.
Don't know where you got this, in case of Germany it's certainly not true.
In the constitution is written "There is no death penalty." (§ 102 GG: 'Die Todesstrafe ist abgeschafft', source (http://www.bundestag.de/parlament/funktion/gesetze/Grundgesetz/gg_09.html)) , overruling any other existing laws. According to § 16 WstG, it's punishable by up to 5 years in prison. source (http://www.deutsches-wehrrecht.de/Gesetze/WStG.pdf)
Well, back to the matter of the death penalty:
Society doesn't evolve that much over a mere 300 years. You are also assuming that death penalty is bad/ineffective, and there are still many people who would currently disagree. And if they are right, there is no reason to say it would become prevelant again in a few hundred years. :)
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I don't know what all this talk about the death penalty being ineffective is about... it's pretty damn effective in a military setting. Fun thing about militaries is that they get to make their own laws.
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Death sentence != execution.
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I don't know what all this talk about the death penalty being ineffective is about... it's pretty damn effective in a military setting. Fun thing about militaries is that they get to make their own laws.
Loyalty through fear!
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I don't agree with Capital punishment in real life, but in FS military it makes sense. Can you imagine the risk you run with a traitor whose opening fire on his wingmen to try and coax him into the hanger deck of an expensive Destroyer with thousands of people on board :eek:
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Don't know where you got this, in case of Germany it's certainly not true.
In the constitution is written "There is no death penalty." (§ 102 GG: 'Die Todesstrafe ist abgeschafft', source (http://www.bundestag.de/parlament/funktion/gesetze/Grundgesetz/gg_09.html)) , overruling any other existing laws. According to § 16 WstG, it's punishable by up to 5 years in prison. source (http://www.deutsches-wehrrecht.de/Gesetze/WStG.pdf)
Legal precedence; the constitution overrides other laws, but it does not erase them. The desertion penalty law predates the one in the constitution. It still exists, it simply cannot be used.
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Ehm, not exactly.
There are no federal laws for death penalty in case of desertion (§ 16 WStG is the law dealing with desertion).
There are state laws I think in 2 states (bavaria and hesse iirc) that allow death penalty, but here it's the case with legal precedence.
If there would be federal laws allowing death penalty, they would be unconstitutional, and not simply be overruled, but had to be changed.
So in this case, the constitution changes other laws in short terms (via the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Constitutional_Court_of_Germany))
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I don't see why not. Capital punishment has existed for thousands of years, I can't imagine it'll be gone for good in another three hundred or so.
Very, very, very bogus.
The world is slowly, but surely, forgetting about death sentences. At the time of FreeSpace, sentencing to death should sound primitive. We have death sentences in the series, but it doesn't mean that a civilized mankind of the future would rely on it for a series of reasons.
I don't agree with Capital punishment in real life, but in FS military it makes sense. Can you imagine the risk you run with a traitor whose opening fire on his wingmen to try and coax him into the hanger deck of an expensive Destroyer with thousands of people on board :eek:
Ha-hem, what about imprisoning him? The contrary of "sentencing to death" surely isn't "let the guilty stay where he is"... :nervous:
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I don't see why not. Capital punishment has existed for thousands of years, I can't imagine it'll be gone for good in another three hundred or so.
Very, very, very bogus.
The world is slowly, but surely, forgetting about death sentences. At the time of FreeSpace, sentencing to death should sound primitive. We have death sentences in the series, but it doesn't mean that a civilized mankind of the future would rely on it for a series of reasons.
What "death sentences" in FS are you even talking about? It's kind of important to the debate. If you're talking about being called out as a traitor, well traitors are usually always killed, if not immediately retaliated upon in a combat zone. There's not really much room to arrest someone when you're flying spaceships in space with hella guns on them.
If you're talking about the NTF, they're crazy rebels. Rebels kill people. Duh.
Furthermore, you already answered your own question in your original post; It's a military setting, they follow martial law, or at least some form of military justice protocol.
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Wouldn't the modern military protocols become obsolete in a few hundred years?
Also, what's with the NTF being a bunch of crazy rebels? There are three legitimate governments behind the NTF, with Bosch acting as main leader. Sirius, Regulus and Polaris once were important GTVA systems.
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Wouldn't the modern military protocols become obsolete in a few hundred years?
Also, what's with the NTF being a bunch of crazy rebels? There are three legitimate governments behind the NTF, with Bosch acting as main leader. Sirius, Regulus and Polaris once were important GTVA systems.
- No. The Military is not social progress. The Military (any military of any society) is going to be the least progressive aspect bar none. Militaries stand on history, tradition, and ceremony, not feel-good political correctness.
- Did you miss the part in FS2 where Bosch talks about himself stirring up essentially racism and bigotry for no reason other than ETAK? That's what's with the NTF being a bunch of crazy rebels.
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Wouldn't the modern military protocols become obsolete in a few hundred years?
And be replaced with what? your talking about a violent traitor who is in possession of military weapons. I don't see a alternative to killing him.
Also, what's with the NTF being a bunch of crazy rebels? There are three legitimate governments behind the NTF, with Bosch acting as main leader. Sirius, Regulus and Polaris once were important GTVA systems.[/mobius]
Err... no he doesn't.
"The Neo-Terran Front (or NTF) was a rebel group led by Admiral Aken Bosch, former commander of the GTVA 6th fleet. They came to prominence after a violent military coup in the Polaris system, eighteen months prior to the events of FreeSpace 2. Within weeks, a domino effect saw the governments of Regulus and Sirius fall to the NTF. "
Ha-hem, what about imprisoning him? The contrary of "sentencing to death" surely isn't "let the guilty stay where he is"...
Imprison him? That's in reply to a statment I made about the dangers of trying to get a violent person flying a ship onto the hanger of a Military Destroyer right :wtf:
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"The Neo-Terran Front (or NTF) was a rebel group led by Admiral Aken Bosch, former commander of the GTVA 6th fleet. They came to prominence after a violent military coup in the Polaris system, eighteen months prior to the events of FreeSpace 2. Within weeks, a domino effect saw the governments of Regulus and Sirius fall to the NTF. "
The Wiki is bogus on that part:
[quote="Neo-Terran Front" Intelligence Entry]Eighteen months ago, Admiral Aken Bosch, commander of the GTVA 6th Fleet, launched a violent military coup in the Polaris system. Within weeks, a regional domino effect also toppled the governments of Regulus and Sirius, all swearing allegiance to Bosch and his Neo-Terran Front.
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Imprison him? That's in reply to a statment I made about the dangers of trying to get a violent person flying a ship onto the hanger of a Military Destroyer right :wtf:
Read one of my first posts on this thread.
I said that, if the traitor may interfere with important operations, he should be killed during the mission. If he gets back to base like a retard, there's no need to kill him so quickly... and for several reasons.
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I see where Mobius is coming from, but I don't agree with him. In Star Trek they'd probably beam the pilot aboard the Enterprise and set phasers to stun, then have a nice friendly chat about what they did. But keep in mind that humanity may not necessarily advance as you think it might - The war with the Vasudans is an important example.
If the Terrans have evolved into a benevolent and more enlightened race, why would they go to war with a species which we have seen to be very similar to ourselves? Clearly, the Terran race has not advanced so radically as you've assumed.
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I think I understand the point of your "I see where Mobius is coming from".
Also, speaking of the Terran-Vasudan War, the Vasudans essentially started it due to the Terrans' approach on the Conversation. Obviously, agter 14 years of conflict who started the war doesn't really make the difference - both sides had to employ cruel tactics to survive.
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Also, speaking of the Terran-Vasudan War, the Vasudans essentially started it due to the Terrans' approach on the Conversation.
Wow man. You manage to be a conservative fundamentalist even towards fictional events. :P
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Isn't that the truth?
By the way, I like the Vasudans.
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Isn't that the truth?
By the way, I like the Vasudans.
It's clear there were other reasons for the T-V war, not just the Conversation.
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Two factions fighting to dominate that region of space. Well, that's clear.
What I don't understand is how fighting the Vasudans would be a proof of the Terrans' pseudo-evolution in terms of civil behavior.
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Two factions fighting to dominate that region of space. Well, that's clear.
That's another reason. Probably a lot more too.
What I don't understand is how fighting the Vasudans would be a proof of the Terrans' pseudo-evolution in terms of civil behavior.
If, like you say, the Terrans have advanced socially to such an extent that capital punishment is deemed primitive, then surely a war with the Vasudans wouldn't happen. The Terrans by the stage of 2335 are quite clearly very 'human' - They are barbaric and violent in the many eyes of the beholder.
Though Terran society would undoubtedly have advanced over the 32 years by 2367, the fact that a violent coup such as the NTF would still show that Terran society as a whole isn't too different from our own.
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It's worth noting the difference between FreeSpace's mankind as we know it and the potential behavior of mankind a few hundred years from now.
I'm not trying to contradict canon, I started a discussion about how (giving that today death sentences are being progressively phased out) mankind would be in the future.
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It's worth noting the difference between FreeSpace's mankind as we know it and the potential behavior of mankind a few hundred years from now.
FreeSpace's mankind is not an ideal image of the future. They're militaristic and violent.
I'm not trying to contradict canon, I started a discussion about how (giving that today death sentences are being progressively phased out) mankind would be in the future.
Well, if you look at it, even in the modern day society is at many different levels of barbarism.
The countries of the Western World are all supposedly the forefront of civility, and they're all denouncing China for death penalties and heavy-handedness and all that jazz, while in Africa people are dying from poverty. There's a lot of diversity in human culture, in a few hundred years time I can't see that changing too much. Sure it'll change, probably for the better, but I doubt it'll change that much.
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Also, death sentences are useful. If there's some serial killer out there, killing him is the easiest and most simple way to make sure he doesn't kill anyone ever again. I would rather see a serial killer executed than in a comfy prison cell where everything is provided for him by the taxpayers.
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Also, death sentences are useful. If there's some serial killer out there, killing him is the easiest and most simple way to make sure he doesn't kill anyone ever again. I would rather see a serial killer executed than in a comfy prison cell where everything is provided for him by the taxpayers.
Keep the politics to GenDisc, Sparda.
(though it's fair to note that death row inmates consume a ton of money and tend to remain on death row for a very long time, meaning they actually take more from the taxpayers.)
(and believe me, solitary ain't comfortable)
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I wasn't aware I was making a political statement. I was trying to say that dead murderers can't kill anyone anymore.
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The last sentence is controversial and the kind of thing best left to GD debates.
This is a thread regarding the use of military court-martials and executions in Freespace. If you want to do a campaign about a serial killer, that'd be interesting.
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Its the same as how we treat criminals today. They die. Its just a modern day society + advanced weaps\tech.
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Sorry, perhaps I should have phrased it differently. I think that in the Freespace era the death sentence will still be used, simply because death is extremely final.
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FreeSpace's mankind is not an ideal image of the future. They're militaristic and violent.
That's one damn good assumption, but I don't see that many episodes suggesting that Terrans are so militaristic and violent in FS. It may be true, I'm not excluding it, but we lack a decisive proof.
Well, if you look at it, even in the modern day society is at many different levels of barbarism.
The countries of the Western World are all supposedly the forefront of civility, and they're all denouncing China for death penalties and heavy-handedness and all that jazz, while in Africa people are dying from poverty. There's a lot of diversity in human culture, in a few hundred years time I can't see that changing too much. Sure it'll change, probably for the better, but I doubt it'll change that much.
Things are changing. We're far from perfect, but things are finally changing.
As I said elsewhere, only countries with a certain reputation keep relying on death penalties. Namely: China, Iran, and many others. In other words, it's not a good thing.
Also, death sentences are useful. If there's some serial killer out there, killing him is the easiest and most simple way to make sure he doesn't kill anyone ever again. I would rather see a serial killer executed than in a comfy prison cell where everything is provided for him by the taxpayers.
I'm pretty sure it's quite the opposite.
Instead of killing a person who might even be innocent, you can conduct psychological research on him/her (it's useful) and let that person work for the country under surveillance (nearly useful). What's wrong with it?
That's essentially what the GTA and the GTVA should do. If they capture a traitor, they should first study it and determine whatever reasons led that person to become a traitor. In FreeSpace, without a few exceptions, being a traitor means going against your species. I think both the Terrans and the Vasudans had damn good reasons to analyze such episodes to prevent them from happening. Hopefully, potential traitors will not be allowed to go to the frontlines (psychological reasons? Political ones? It doesn't matter...).
Its the same as how we treat criminals today. They die. Its just a modern day society + advanced weaps\tech.
It's not that easy because, as I said, things are changing.
Sorry, perhaps I should have phrased it differently. I think that in the Freespace era the death sentence will still be used, simply because death is extremely final.
It's final but isn't anywhere near to forced work and research in terms of effectiveness and benefits.
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You can't do experiments on prisoners without their consent. It's been tried, and the results have been really abusive.
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That's one damn good assumption, but I don't see that many episodes suggesting that Terrans are so militaristic and violent in FS. It may be true, I'm not excluding it, but we lack a decisive proof.
The Neo-Terran Front rebellion wouldn't have started if the Terran race wasn't militaristic and violent. If the Terrans were benevolent that rebellion wouldn't have started.
Perhaps it's only a small portion of the Terran race that is like that, but as long as there are a few disillusioned Terrans out there they will continue to influence the political situation, making capital punishment necessary.
Things are changing. We're far from perfect, but things are finally changing.
As I said elsewhere, only countries with a certain reputation keep relying on death penalties. Namely: China, Iran, and many others. In other words, it's not a good thing.
As I said, there is a lot of different levels in Terran society - Some civilizations are more advanced than others. If we're taking a (very dangerous) assumption that the USA are the most advanced civilization, with their fair trials and all, there are still a lot of civilizations that are less advanced, such as the PRC which still advocates some heavy-handed government stuff. In 300 years, maybe the most advanced civilization would have done away with the death penalty, but some voices will still call for it. Especially in a time of war.
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You can't do experiments on prisoners without their consent. It's been tried, and the results have been really abusive.
Experiments? That's not as terrible as you suggest. Psychologists carrying on a research to find out why a person betrayed his faction (or worse, his species) aren't that abusive.
And they're much more productive than saying "Die, you traitor!" and putting everything to an end.
The Neo-Terran Front rebellion wouldn't have started if the Terran race wasn't militaristic and violent. If the Terrans were benevolent that rebellion wouldn't have started.
That's a major assumption. Rebellions don't start because of militarism, political reasons are the main cause.
It's much more plausibile to believe that the NTF rebellion was successful because of the fact that the Terran branch of the main GTVA authorities emerged following the collapse of the Sol jump node, and therefore their legitimate presence may have been questioned.
As I said, there is a lot of different levels in Terran society - Some civilizations are more advanced than others. If we're taking a (very dangerous) assumption that the USA are the most advanced civilization, with their fair trials and all, there are still a lot of civilizations that are less advanced, such as the PRC which still advocates some heavy-handed government stuff. In 300 years, maybe the most advanced civilization would have done away with the death penalty, but some voices will still call for it. Especially in a time of war.
In any other circumstance, mentioning the USA as a civilized country would work. Doing it when discussing death senteces, however, doesn't work because the USA aren't civilized under that point of view. And they're not going to become civilized anytime soon.
Good point about the sporadic usage of death penalties 300 years from now - that's probably the best explanation so far. :9
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It's also possible that the current "advanced" ideas about human rights could have died out or fallen out of favor in the Freespace universe, depending on the events leading up to the formation of GTA.
For example, a event which completely destroyed the current society and system (like a nuclear war) could have happened somewhere in the 21~23rd century, leading to a formation of a more violent and "backward" society.
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You can't do experiments on prisoners without their consent. It's been tried, and the results have been really abusive.
Experiments? That's not as terrible as you suggest. Psychologists carrying on a research to find out why a person betrayed his faction (or worse, his species) aren't that abusive.
And they're much more productive than saying "Die, you traitor!" and putting everything to an end.
There are ethical guidelines scientists, psychologists included, have to follow when they're recruiting individuals for experiments. You can't do an experiment or study on a population of prisoners without consent, so far as I know.
Prisoners have most commonly been used for drug tests, which is now (I believe) illegal.
A case study of an individual prisoner, as you suggested, would certainly be interesting, and those are common.