Hard Light Productions Forums

Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Kolgena on June 02, 2009, 12:24:01 am

Title: Changes
Post by: Kolgena on June 02, 2009, 12:24:01 am
Huh. I'm playing through the FS2 campaign again after some time, and I've noticed some rather curious changes after deleting Admiral Nelson's Lightspeed FS2 Mission pack. The nebulas seem to be more consistent with location, which is nice, but there's some odd changes here and there.

For example, the second mission usually starts with killing a wing of hercs. I was instead greeted by a wing of lokis. Also, the mission where you fail to catch the Iceni gives wingmen Prom R as a weapon. I'm quite positive that up to that point, your wingmen don't have enough clearance for that weapon.

So, is it a problem with my transfer? (I recently moved some stuff from my old computer to my new one), a result of removing Admiral Nelson's pack, or are these intentional changes?
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: blowfish on June 02, 2009, 12:33:13 am
Hmm ... you're right about the Hercs, though I don't see the Prommy Rs on wingmen, unless that has been changed since when the 3.6.10 mediavps were released and now.  Fixed, which should come with the patch.  Let us know if you encounter anything else like this.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on June 02, 2009, 12:46:10 am
Yeah it looks like Cancer wing (all of 2 ships) was changed from hercs to loki's. I don't know why that might be - though it may be because all other hostile fighters in the mission are lokis. Assuming it was a FSU team member who made the switch, I'll leave it up to them, because it really makes no difference. :)

Edit: Or Blowfish might change it first. :p

For the third mission though, there's no difference at all in weaponry available or used as default on your wingmen between the FSU version and the original.

Overall yeah there are a number of small intentional changes throughout the campaign, like in into the lions den, snipes no longer announces that a sath has emerged from knossos 3 before he actually spots knossos 3. That hiccup always bugged me. ;)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 02, 2009, 04:47:02 am
No offense, but I'm not a big fan of the changes the FSU made to the main campaign. As VA said, many changes are appropriate... but I don't quite understand the point in adding ship prefixes to names, changing some ship classes and replacing some ships.

One of the changes I don't like at all is the "Sc" prefix for science cruisers. We all know it should be SC, because it stands for "science cruiser" (please note that they're two separate words.) It's not like in Cv, where there's just one word (so the v is better off decapitalized.)

Those aren't worrying issues, but people seeing those changes to the main campaign might interpret them as the will of :v:. I've already seen people starting to use "Sc" instead of "SC".

The FSCRP team would be happy to make changes to the main campaign for the FSU. If you like the idea, let us know... :)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Dilmah G on June 02, 2009, 05:15:01 am
The campaign plays fine. I have no issues, if someone wants to re-imagine the campaign, that's great :D
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on June 02, 2009, 08:26:03 am
I'm all for attention to detail and doing it right etc, but arguing over any of the stuff in this thread is kinda picking the nits off the nits. :p

Bug hunting and valid feature/improvement suggestions are great, but the kind of nitpicking this thread is heading towards is poisonous to a team and/or a good working environment, because it only serves to create tension and frustration on one or both sides.

Sorry if this sounds like an overreaction, but I do feel strongly about this. I've been here a long time now and have seen it in happen more than once. ;)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 02, 2009, 08:42:37 am
I do appreciate your work but I don't like when people blame me for saying that NTSc is not a correct designation because the FSU added it to the main campaign (and therefore seems canon.)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on June 02, 2009, 09:24:23 am
Can you picture a scenario where that kind of 'mistake' being made deserves anything more than a 'meh' by both the author of the mistake and any other team member who actually spots it? That's exactly what should happen in a well functioning team. ;)

(You know, I've been thinking about this kind of teamwork stuff a bit at uni recently in light of some absolutely superbly functioning group-work I was a part of, so I'm going to write it all down here anyway! :p )

This kind of issue is SO trivial that even if it is wrong, it's just not worth even just a couple of minutes it might take to argue about it. Disagreements can arise all too easily in projects over valid topics that really DO need discussion, and so it's hugely important not to fan the embers of disagreement with itty bitty stuff because you risk turning it into a full blown fight when the valid topics come along - and those fights are the team and/or project killers.

In campaign development when it comes to trivial issues that you aren't in a convenient position to fix yourself (assuming they're the kind that do need a bit of itty bitty care -> like spelling/grammar), point it out (politely!) to the person who made the mistake in the first place, but then accept what they decide to do! As long as there's a healthy working relationship there they will in all likelyhood fix it to whatever you say, but it's still their call. The more you argue, the less obliging they are likely to be next time.

As a final example of what I mean: where you say 'One of the changes I don't like at all' -> that's the kind of thing I would only say if discussing a moderate-major issue about efficiency, functionality or aesthetics. On anything less important and it would mean I'd lost perspective on the project as a whole.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 02, 2009, 10:09:53 am
I'm not the first one who claims that the FSU makes changes many community members don't agree with.

Although the FSU is a superb team, there are some... drawbacks in the way it works. When freespaceking made a new Ursa map for INFA, I proposed Woomeister to share the map with the FSU team. That was a polite and correct move, inspired by my respect towards the FSU team and the result of your work. I do remember FSU team members blaming me and saying stuff like "What's the point in focusing our attention to a map that might be better than the original one?". Weirdily enough, dare I say, that map made it straight to the MVPs.

Not to mention the new starfield map. All community members trying to complain about it have been silenced. It's no secret, consequently, that I will do whatever I can to make sure that the projects I'm working on will use the old starfield map and/or a modified version other than the one released with the new MVPs.

There also are designation prefixes. Let's forget the NTSc matter for now - the mere fact of adding prefixes to ship's names is a very debatable choice. In FS2, it was very, very rare... and now I see prefixes in the names of all ships.

My message is: we appreciate and love the FSU team and its efforts, but we'd like you guys to consider different opinions and undo some of your changes should they turn out to be unappropriate. Doing so would surely be a wise move.

If you have any doubts, post a poll and see what the other community members have to say. In any case, just don't make radical changes without asking...
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: blowfish on June 02, 2009, 10:21:04 am
Not to mention the new starfield map. All community members trying to complain about it have been silenced. It's no secret, consequently, that I will do whatever I can to make sure that the projects I'm working on will use the old starfield map and/or a modified version other than the one released with the new MVPs.

Wait ... remind me what you didn't like about the new starfield map? :wtf:

Quote
There also are designation prefixes. Let's forget the NTSc matter for now - the mere fact of adding prefixes to ship's names is a very debatable choice. In FS2, it was very, very rare... and now I see prefixes in the names of all ships.

I ... sorta agree on this point, and you're right about the science cruiser thing, but that could just be a careless error.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 02, 2009, 10:27:10 am
What I don't like about the new map? For the sake of convenience, I'd rather tell you that the only thing I like is the fact that there are stars of various colors. Other than that, meh.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Kolgena on June 02, 2009, 04:47:29 pm
Well, I'm glad that these weird things in my campaign aren't conflicting tables or something of the sort. (I made a new pilot, and the Prom Rs disappeared, so it must be because I've worked through half a dozen campaigns for my other profile).

As for prefixes, the Sc for science cruiser should be changed to SC, since sentry guns are abbreviated SG. However, I'd sooner take more HTL models and much bigger bug-fixes than something like that.

And the new starfield is okay, IMO. I mean, when I look up into the night sky, I don't really notice that stars are of different color. One thing that does bug me is that the suns in the system are always monochromatic. Blue suns make everything blue. They seem to emit a very thin band of the EM spectrum, whereas in reality, they should cover a massive range with a maximum at the main color it's supposed to be.

But yeah, this thread is badly derailed.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 02, 2009, 10:30:54 pm
Not to mention the new starfield map. All community members trying to complain about it have been silenced. It's no secret, consequently, that I will do whatever I can to make sure that the projects I'm working on will use the old starfield map and/or a modified version other than the one released with the new MVPs.


 :wtf:

...How exactly have people been silenced? I'd like to have a few examples of that kind of activity because I absolutely wouldn't agree with that [the silencing, not the opinions]. To me it simply looks more that there are not that many people who disagree with how the starfield looks like, which would explain the lack of opposition in a much more likely manner than some kind of conspiracy theory about people with wrong opinions being silenced.

So yeah, bring up some examples of where exactly people have been silenced and how many people have actually voiced their dissatisfaction to the starfield apart from you. I have not noticed a general outcry about it, which leads me to conclude that in fact the majority of community members either likes it or is at least neutral about it compared to older versions. That means it will most likely stay where it is, at least for now.

Regarding the actual argument about what the starfield should look like, we've been through it already and can do it again. Just don't expect it to change without some pretty large amount of people asking for the old starfield back. Also I happen to be ridiculously proud about how that starfield turned out, so naturally I wouldn't want it to disappear so soon... :D

Quote
My message is: we appreciate and love the FSU team and its efforts, but we'd like you guys to consider different opinions and undo some of your changes should they turn out to be unappropriate. Doing so would surely be a wise move.

Who's this we you talk about? Or are you using the Pluralis Majestatis now? ;)

Anyway, the FSUpgrade is open to feedback at least in my opinion - but that might be because I was actually in the team during the assembly and testing of the 3.6.10 mediaVP's. However, opening each and all issues that are at all controversial to the public opinion is not necessarily a good move either. Things like ship prefixes are very minor things at least to me. I don't really understand what the fuss is about them either way (I wouldn't have bothered to change them, but I'm not bothered by Zacam changing them either). The good thing about it is that they are now somewhat consistent... and I seriously doubt the majority of users ever even registered the change.

The change of Hercs to Lokis in the second mission is actually based on the in-mission dialogue, which suggests that the Hercs in the mission might have been either an error on Volition's part, or some late mission balance change after voice acting was completed. Either way, changing the Hercs to Lokis doesn't drastically alter the gameplay or mission outcome so it can be done as far as I'm concerned. It's not a hugely important thing and in my opinion it makes the mission better because now the dialogue actually matches the mission elements.

As far as the functionality of FSU team goes, I'll be first to agree that the way it worked was not optimal to say the least when I joined up last summer/fall. It all got very much better when we got an SVN up and didn't need to distribute all the changes and additions individually to each member.

Quote
If you have any doubts, post a poll and see what the other community members have to say. In any case, just don't make radical changes without asking...

Snuffleuphagus. The reason why community polls should always be regarded as suggestions at best. :lol:

Also, what constitutes as radical is very much a matter of opinion. IMHO radical changes would be, say, adjusting the campaign to use an Orion model with extra turrets... or changing the center of gravity for the Colossus, which was actually attempted at certain point but reverted as it changed some mission balance and visual effects (the break-up sequence was altered and it moved differently from the original missions). Radical change would not be changing the mission briefings/de-briefings to be internally consistent regarding the ship prefixes is not what I would call radical. Neither is replacing one wing of fighters with another fighter class (especially as the mission dialogue suggests they should be the other class instead of the original).

Quote from: Kolgena
One thing that does bug me is that the suns in the system are always monochromatic. Blue suns make everything blue. They seem to emit a very thin band of the EM spectrum, whereas in reality, they should cover a massive range with a maximum at the main color it's supposed to be.

That's a retail FreeSpace 2 feature, there are some pretty exotic lighting environments in the campaign and changing that too much would be - albeit more realistic - a bit further from the original FreeSpace 2 feel than we're quite willing to do.

There are also no green stars in reality, but there you go...
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 02, 2009, 10:33:14 pm
Yeah, what's with all the plural 'we'?
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on June 02, 2009, 10:39:29 pm
Oh blah, HT got a big post in before me, and we seem to be saying much the same stuff. Oh well - not changing mine now. :p

What you've got here is quite simply annoying project/forum 'politics' here:
Quote from: Mobius
I'm not the first one who claims that the FSU makes changes many community members don't agree with.
We're not exactly going to put up a poll and have committie meetings to discuss and debate each and every 'change' we make before we make it. :p

We work out what we'd like to try out, how to best implement it, sometimes get some feedback, always test it, and then see if the community is happy. Usually there's no problem, but of course if something comes up that gets pretty unanimous dislike then we'll take it out through one method or another. Simple as that.

Quote from: Mobius
Although the FSU is a superb team, there are some... drawbacks in the way it works. When freespaceking made a new Ursa map for INFA, I proposed Woomeister to share the map with the FSU team. That was a polite and correct move, inspired by my respect towards the FSU team and the result of your work. I do remember FSU team members blaming me and saying stuff like "What's the point in focusing our attention to a map that might be better than the original one?". Weirdily enough, dare I say, that map made it straight to the MVPs.
You said 'Use this map! Your current one is disgusting :ick:'. We said 'If you want some other map that we haven't yet seen, then YOU at least find it for us to compare, and if we like it we'll put it in'. Eventually you did that, we did think it was a bit better, so we put it in. Here you seem to be puffing it up into some kind of noble quest you undertook on our behalf, but it was simply that we were too busy to run around chasing up maps because a single member said we should use them. :p

Quote from: Mobius
Not to mention the new starfield map. All community members trying to complain about it have been silenced. It's no secret, consequently, that I will do whatever I can to make sure that the projects I'm working on will use the old starfield map and/or a modified version other than the one released with the new MVPs.
So it's a conspiracy now? Come on! It's a starfield map, not proof that FSU team was involved in the JFK assassination. :p

If people actually dislike it then we'll change it. I for one think it looks great.

Quote from: Mobius
There also are designation prefixes. Let's forget the NTSc matter for now - the mere fact of adding prefixes to ship's names is a very debatable choice. In FS2, it was very, very rare... and now I see prefixes in the names of all ships.
That's mainly Zacam's department, so I'll leave it up to him to decide what to do in the patch. I've not kept up with the details there so for all I know it may have already been reverted in the patch.

Quote from: Mobius
My message is: we appreciate and love the FSU team and its efforts, but we'd like you guys to consider different opinions and undo some of your changes should they turn out to be unappropriate. Doing so would surely be a wise move.

If you have any doubts, post a poll and see what the other community members have to say. In any case, just don't make radical changes without asking...
While we do appreciate that we are appreciated, as a project we just don't work like a political system. We make what you describe as 'radical' changes (quite honestly I would call them trivial changes) as we see fit in line with what the FSU is doing, and see if the community likes them. If so we leave/improve them, if not we take them out or fix them till they are liked. Sometimes the person making the change will post a poll or a feedback thread, sometimes not, but that's really all there is to the process.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: IceFire on June 02, 2009, 11:00:14 pm
Not to mention the new starfield map. All community members trying to complain about it have been silenced. It's no secret, consequently, that I will do whatever I can to make sure that the projects I'm working on will use the old starfield map and/or a modified version other than the one released with the new MVPs.
Mobius, this particular comment concerns me slightly.  Although HLP moderators and administrators are forced to remove posts or lock threads I can assure with some certainty that none of the people I work with here will attempt to silence someone for expressing a comment or opinion on something like an artistic matter.  Not unless that comment crosses the lines of acceptable behaviour in the usual forms (i.e. personal attacks, inflammatory comments, etc.).  Do you have any examples of people being "silenced"?
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 02, 2009, 11:19:14 pm
Hey Mobius. Or anybody else, for that matter. Which starfield do you prefer? (http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3882/starshotqu0.png)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Kolgena on June 02, 2009, 11:47:53 pm

That's a retail FreeSpace 2 feature, there are some pretty exotic lighting environments in the campaign and changing that too much would be - albeit more realistic - a bit further from the original FreeSpace 2 feel than we're quite willing to do.

There are also no green stars in reality, but there you go...

Technically, Sol is green, since that's the center of its EM spectrum/highest emission wavelength.

Anyways, I never really noticed how retail suns were monochromatic, possibly because the lighting back then was so bad. Anyways, I'll make no further gripe about this, since it's pretty minor.

And Mobius, if you hate the maps so much, you could always make your own and use it yourself.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Zacam on June 03, 2009, 01:05:59 am
For example, the second mission usually starts with killing a wing of hercs. I was instead greeted by a wing of lokis.

The command briefings AND wingman vocals all say Loki. I don't know why Hercs got put in there, I am not going to claim knowledge that I don't have, I just went with what the Briefing and Vocals stated. And the fact that all of the other enemy fighters were loki's. That consitency thing that nobody seems to have liked over well. The mission was tested, and having 2 loki fighters greeting you instead of 2 hercs did not really make all that much of a difference (unless you try cramming your gun up their nose, not recommended.)

Also, the mission where you fail to catch the Iceni gives wingmen Prom R as a weapon. I'm quite positive that up to that point, your wingmen don't have enough clearance for that weapon.
"The Romans Blunder", all ships that have a defined primary weapon are using Subach HL-7's. Unless you mean a different mission. I am only assuming "The Romans Blunder" because that follows "The Place of Chariots" mentioned above.

The campaign plays fine. I have no issues, if someone wants to re-imagine the campaign, that's great :D

If some one wants to re-imagine the Freespace 2 campaign, it will not be a FSU MediaVP release. The FSU will be more than happy to help make sure it can work with the MediaVP's, but it wont BE the MediaVP's that have it.

Backgrounds may change, stellar bodies changed, more High-Poly models. Potential bug's squished. Attempts at some form of consitency and polish maybe. But never a re-imagining. Though that does sound like fun.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Dilmah G on June 03, 2009, 01:21:07 am
Yeah, I was just suggesting :P
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: castor on June 03, 2009, 01:05:17 pm
Anyways, I never really noticed how retail suns were monochromatic, possibly because the lighting back then was so bad. Anyways, I'll make no further gripe about this, since it's pretty minor.
I think its a good point though. FSO/FSU *really* emphasizes the monochromatic effect (never noticed it much in retail either). IIRC, some people new to FSO have even thought it is a bug :)
A bit less of the good thing would look better, but yeah, not worth a big effort.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 03, 2009, 01:12:42 pm
Actually, that's a good point. The specular lighting does emphasize the colour effect compared to retail lighting (which was basically just diffuse, and with a LOT of ambient light too).

If someone can still run the retail game, (I know I can't) taking screenshots with different lighting settings and comparing them to how the same scenario looks with 3.6.10 and MediaVP's might be a good idea.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Zacam on June 03, 2009, 02:27:31 pm
Uh. There are no light settings in Retail. It is just retail.

I can run Retail and take screenshots. I can run without MediaVP's and take screenshots. I can run with no commandline options and take screenshots.

In short, I can screen shot any viable configuration.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 03, 2009, 02:43:01 pm
Uh. There are no light settings in Retail. It is just retail.

I can run Retail and take screenshots. I can run without MediaVP's and take screenshots. I can run with no commandline options and take screenshots.

In short, I can screen shot any viable configuration.

Hmm... what I meant is basically how the lighting looks like in retail. For example how much does a blue sun (for example a sun with light colour values of [128,128,255]) make ships look blue in retail and things like that. Obviously it doesn't have the configurable lighting settings that FS2Open has, but it still uses some sort of settings... :nervous:
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Kolgena on June 03, 2009, 07:22:38 pm
Will it work if we stack 5 or 6 suns of different intensities on the same spot to simulate a wider color band?

Or will that break it completely?

Edit: Wtf am I thinking. You only really need 1 sun, which is white light, stacked under a sun that has a specific color (blue for instance). A sun that has multiple emission peaks would have 1 extra sun stacked per peak color.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: M87 on June 04, 2009, 01:35:06 pm
If I'm interpreting Kolgena correctly, stars in FS should emit radiation like black bodies. If so, then I agree. This is what I had intended when I remade the stars of the FS universe with the help of Admiral Nelson. My problem was that the retail stars did not accurately represent their real-life counterparts (Betelgeuse was white, etc.). In order to simulate stars that radiate as perfect black bodies, I had to refer to a spectral classification table that has listed RGB values which represent the color of the surface of a star based on its effective temperature. For the most part, the colors of the stars are now portrayed more realistically.

So this leads me to ask, how do the current stars have spectra that are monochromatic? You say that it looks like radiation is being emitted from a small portion of the EM spectrum, but in reality, we can only detect light from a small portion of the EM spectrum without aid- the visible spectrum. A black body function can be generated with any initial temperature. The color that we would see from this star depends on how the intensity of light is distributed across the visible spectrum.  So as you've mentioned, the Sun has a peak intensity near 5000 A. However, within the visible region of the EM spectrum,  the intensity is almost evenly distributed. This why the Sun is white outside of Earth's atmosphere. Light intensity of a hot star that peaks in the UV will be higher at shorter wavelengths, causing a blue hue to dominate. The opposite is true for cool stars.

Only one RGB value is used per star. This value is not a representation of peak radiation from one wavelength, but radiation across all wavelengths in the visible region of the EM spectrum. This same value is also used to light the environment. So this is, more or less, a simulated approach to represent black body radiation. This was not the case in retail, as pure colors were often used. 

If we're talking about retail only, then I apologize for misinterpreting. If we are talking about the current mediaVP stars, I'm not understanding the issue.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Kolgena on June 04, 2009, 04:57:58 pm
Yes, we are talking about media-vp stars.

It just seems to me that green suns are too green, or that blue/red stars are too blue/red. It makes more sense to me to have stars that are mostly white with a little to mild hint of color based on its size/temperature, rather than a very very green star or something.

However, I'm just saying this without knowing anything about how stars really are, so please take this with a grain of salt. Perhaps stars really would give a very strongly colored light to things in its immediate vicinity (immediate being within same system)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: ssmit132 on June 05, 2009, 01:37:35 am
What I interpret from that is that Kolgena thinks that the light from the star when applied on objects looks too saturated (is that the correct term?). Am I correct? :)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: M87 on June 05, 2009, 10:15:54 am
Hmmm... So it looks like we are talking about the retail stars after all. What I meant by retail are the replacements I made for those users who wanted to have stars with pure colors as seen in the original FS2. I remember their colors being blue, red, green, gold, white, and violet. I agree, these stars are too saturated, and it often results in very vivid environment lighting. The mediaVP stars that have colors based on black body radiation are not like these retail stars: no greens, no violets, no highly saturated colors.

This is ε Pegasi (spectral classification K2Ib) from the main campaign of FS2:
(https://webspace.utexas.edu/maa945/FSSCP/EnifCorona.jpg).

So these are not the same stars that you've been talking about, are they?

Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 05, 2009, 10:41:08 am
I'm not talking about star bitmaps - I was refering to the starfield map.

By "silenced" I mean that FSU team members are quite sensible when someone complains about the changes they made, so they "silence" that (or those) member(s) by replying ad nauseam. You don't need to lock someone's thread if you have 3-4 people all against the person who's complaining.

I don't really know what to tell you, at this point. It seems pretty obvious that some of your changes were totally unappropriate, but yet still you're trying to claim that they weren't. I'm asking you to collaborate with the FSCRP when it comes to FRED changes (I don't have any texturing abilities) so it's up to you to accept the proposal.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 05, 2009, 10:47:25 am
I'm not talking about star bitmaps - I was refering to the starfield map.

By "silenced" I mean that FSU team members are quite sensible when someone complains about the changes they made, so they "silence" that (or those) member(s) by replying ad nauseam. You don't need to lock someone's thread if you have 3-4 people all against the person who's complaining.

I don't really know what to tell you, at this point. It seems pretty obvious that some of your changes were totally unappropriate, but yet still you're trying to claim that they weren't. I'm asking you to collaborate with the FSCRP when it comes to FRED changes (I don't have any texturing abilities) so it's up to you to accept the proposal.

And you complaining about them ad nauseam is all fine and well?


You're missing the point here. There hasn't been a public outcry against the changes in the mediaVP's. If there were, they might indeed be inappropriate. But the thing is, you are a very small minority here.

Also, it's spelled inappropriate. Not to be a spelling nazi but it seems a consistent misspelling, so I might as well point it out.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 05, 2009, 11:06:54 am
Mobius, could you please go back to my last post in this thread and tell me which starfield you prefer?

And no, it's not obvious that any inappropriate changes were made, because everyone agrees which starfield is better.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 05, 2009, 11:25:42 am
Herra Tohtori: That's a good example of the typical and vague post FSU team members usually come out with when it comes to complaints. The fact that the number of people complaining about your changes is limited doesn't mean that you're right.

You have no way to prove that "Sc" is a correct designation, do you understand? It's "SC", period. Are you going to correct the error or not? How many members should be complaining about this issue to attract your attention?

It's quite annoying to learn that you consider complaints valid only if there number of members behind them is noticeable. That's one of the most stupid excuses I've ever read, because (as I stated above) some of your changes are absolutely wrong. There's no need to discuss them.

Also, it would be logical to cooperate with the FSCRP.


General Battuta: I will no longer complain about the new starfield map (or, at least, in a formal and direct way). I'm quite sick of the replies I got, I'm getting and I will surely get.

FRED changes are another matter. There are errors of obvious relevance so I'm asking the FSU to cooperate with the FSCRP when it comes to changes of that kind. People are free to say that the new starfield is so much better, but I don't tolerate people doing the same when discussing FRED changes.

Among the changes, some are to be considered errors ("Sc" designation, prefixes in ship names) while others are to be considered unnecessary changes (replacement of the Carthage in "A Lion at the Door").
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 05, 2009, 11:29:49 am
So which of those two starfields do you like better? I can post the link again if you want.

As for the rest, read this post (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,63566.msg1252247.html#msg1252247) and VA's next one after it.

You have some excellent and correct points, which I've already seen FSU project members acknowledging and deciding to correct on IRC. But you need to calm down about them - it'll make it more likely that something will actually get done.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Vasudan Admiral on June 05, 2009, 11:38:10 am
Herra Tohtori: That's a good example of the typical and vague post FSU team members usually come out with when it comes to complaints. The fact that the number of people complaining about your changes is limited doesn't mean that you're right.

You have no way to prove that "Sc" is a correct designation, do you understand? It's "SC", period. Are you going to correct the error or not? How many members should be complaining about this issue to attract your attention?

It's quite annoying to learn that you consider complaints valid only if there number of members behind them is noticeable. That's one of the most stupid excuses I've ever read, because (as I stated above) some of your changes are absolutely wrong. There's no need to discuss them.

Also, it would be logical to cooperate with the FSCRP.


General Battuta: I will no longer complain about the new starfield map (or, at least, in a formal and direct way). I'm quite sick of the replies I got, I'm getting and I will surely get.

FRED changes are another matter. There are errors of obvious relevance so I'm asking the FSU to cooperate with the FSCRP when it comes to changes of that kind. People are free to say that the new starfield is so much better, but I don't tolerate people doing the same when discussing FRED changes.

Among the changes, some are to be considered errors ("Sc" designation, prefixes in ship names) while others are to be considered unnecessary changes (replacement of the Carthage in "A Lion at the Door").
See now you're angrily picking the nits off the nits.

When someone who paints the rivets onto each and every hull plate of giant UV mapped ship models tells you you're being waaaay too pedantic, then you probably are. :p
Regardless of whether or not the changes you're so insistant on are made, get some perspective here man! You're vehemently arguing about the capitalisation vs not-capitalisation of a single character in a single ship designation. Do you REALLY think that's something worth arguing over? Honestly?
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Droid803 on June 05, 2009, 11:40:52 am
Uh...Mobius, about that Sc thing - if it's really bothering you that much, why don't you just fix it yourself.
I'll bet you it'll take a grand total of about 30 seconds.

Wait, what happened to the GTD Carthage?

But I do think that it should be NTSC and not NTSc. Its not a Science. It's a Science Cruiser.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 05, 2009, 11:53:47 am
Yet again, I'm getting vague replies about morals and other stuff that has nothing to do with the matter we're discussing.

Do you realize that the problem here is the FSU team's arrogant behavior? This discussion is becoming annoying mostly because of that.

I complain because you're not in the position to decide what's canon and what is not. Following your changes, we got this. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,62241.0.html)

Uh...Mobius, about that Sc thing - if it's really bothering you that much, why don't you just fix it yourself.
I'll bet you it'll take a grand total of about 30 seconds.

Read above. I formally asked the FSU team to cooperate with the FSCRP team in order to fix the problems.

Wait, what happened to the GTD Carthage?

The Carthage has been replaced. Check it out yourself if you don't believe me.

That was unnecessary, I think new FS gamers (who make use of the MVPs) should have the same gaming experience we had in Retail FS2.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Droid803 on June 05, 2009, 12:09:19 pm
Uh...Mobius, about that Sc thing - if it's really bothering you that much, why don't you just fix it yourself.
I'll bet you it'll take a grand total of about 30 seconds.

Read above. I formally asked the FSU team to cooperate with the FSCRP team in order to fix the problems.

Well then, FSU should cooperate. They don't even have to fix the stuff themselves...
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: castor on June 05, 2009, 12:10:03 pm
If we're talking about retail only, then I apologize for misinterpreting. If we are talking about the current mediaVP stars, I'm not understanding the issue.
You can scratch at least my previous comment on this issue. I must have been remembering some older release, since after a short test fly through the missions I must say that lighting there was great. Vastly improved from what I remembered - good work! Only in the mission "Into the lion's den" there is still excessive blueness to my taste, but thats it.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 05, 2009, 12:11:56 pm
Yet again, I'm getting vague replies about morals and other stuff that has nothing to do with the matter we're discussing.

Do you realize that the problem here is the FSU team's arrogant behavior? This discussion is becoming annoying mostly because of that.

Don't be an ass.

The FSU team has been discussing your requests and working to fix things. I've seen it on IRC.

Furthermore, the reason you're getting vague replies about morals and other stuff is because, while people agree with you about many of these changes (myself included!), you're being such a jerk that I don't want to agree with you.

As someone on IRC said, you have a point, but you're delivering it all wrong.

In fact, I've never seen you admit you're wrong. You've clearly decided the newer skybox is better, but you never apologized to Herra for the whole kerfuffle. It would mean a lot to him if you did.

Calm down. You're getting upset about things like the capitalization of a single letter. You'd get a lot more done in this community if you'd just chill out instead of acting like a prima donna.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 05, 2009, 12:21:16 pm
Well then, FSU should cooperate. They don't even have to fix the stuff themselves...

I hope they would accept.


Don't be an ass.

The FSU team has been discussing your requests and working to fix things. I've seen it on IRC.

Furthermore, the reason you're getting vague replies about morals and other stuff is because, while people agree with you about many of these changes (myself included!), you're being such a jerk that I don't want to agree with you.

As someone on IRC said, you have a point, but you're delivering it all wrong.

In fact, I've never seen you admit you're wrong. You've clearly decided the newer skybox is better, but you never apologized to Herra for the whole kerfuffle. It would mean a lot to him if you did.

Calm down. You're getting upset about things like the capitalization of a single letter. You'd get a lot more done in this community if you'd just chill out instead of acting like a prima donna.

Same thing for you. You're not needed here.

You post as if there's a flame war going on - well, it isn't true. The situation is calm, it's your post that almost turned it into a flame spree. I'm waiting for the FSU team's reply to my request, after which everything will be fine.

Had you read my posts you would have understood that the content of my complaints goes well beyond the "c ---> C" matter. Don't make me look like a nitpick maniac.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 05, 2009, 12:23:19 pm
Herra Tohtori: That's a good example of the typical and vague post FSU team members usually come out with when it comes to complaints. The fact that the number of people complaining about your changes is limited doesn't mean that you're right.

Neither does it mean that you are right. I'm approaching this on a case by case basis, so I look at one issue at a time and comment on that if I have some sort of opinion on it and if it's on my turf to change.

You have complained about the starfield, I have responded regarding that because I made it and it's my responsibility as such. You have complained about the ship prefixes, which I had nothing to do with and don't really care too much either way so I'm leaving it for Zacam to comment on and make changes if it comes to that.

The thing is, I doubt he's willing to give you any commentary on the issue because of how you present yourself...


Quote
You have no way to prove that "Sc" is a correct designation, do you understand? It's "SC", period. Are you going to correct the error or not? How many members should be complaining about this issue to attract your attention?

Again on case-by-case basis I happen to agree that it should be SC since it's that in original (IIRC), but I'll leave it for Zacam to change it or comment why it is Sc at the moment. It could be as simple as a typo, but since we haven't gotten to finishing the patch yet (will likely wait till the official 3.6.10 build is out if I've gotten the right impression), it's not changed in the MediaVP's yet. In fact I haven't checked the SVN in quite a bit so it might be changed already. But as I don't know, I'll leave it for Zacam to comment if he wants to.


Quote
It's quite annoying to learn that you consider complaints valid only if there number of members behind them is noticeable. That's one of the most stupid excuses I've ever read, because (as I stated above) some of your changes are absolutely wrong. There's no need to discuss them.

Matters of artistic preference, mind you. Like the starfield. Don't bunch artistic and logical issues into one and the same. The former is dependant on how many people like the changes. The latter is not. If someone points out an obvious logical error (misspelling or the like) they'll be fixed even if 99.9% of users don't say anything of them. The question when and how they are fixed is a different matter.


Quote
Also, it would be logical to cooperate with the FSCRP.

What you're saying is that it would be logical to take you on as a FSU team member and let you have your way with things you disagree with.

Which is hardly the case, because to be honest you give an impression of a busybody trying to stick your fingers in everything just because your opinion is the right one and you want to propagate it as far as you can.

Arrogant behaviour on FSU's part or not, you're hardly free of that yourself. Try and read your posts from an outsider's point of view and you might be surprised.


Aside from that, FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project has a totally different profile than the FreeSpace Upgrade. It's a different project with different goals and different priorities, so I wouldn't really mix them as such. Besides, no one is preventing you from making a FS2 Puritan Edition Mod that changes the things you don't like.


Quote
General Battuta: I will no longer complain about the new starfield map (or, at least, in a formal and direct way). I'm quite sick of the replies I got, I'm getting and I will surely get.

Well, I'm quite sick of hearing you complain about it without clearly saying what exactly is wrong with it in your opinion. You have said it doesn't have enough stars, even though the amount of stars is actually about the same as in the Beta mediaVP version. You have said the stars aren't prominent enough, although they are much brighter in the new one as opposed to the older one. You have said that in reality the stars are brighter than that, yet you want a version with dim and blurry stars in it (if my interpretation is correct, but as you refuse to answer the pepsi test, I can't be totally sure).

I really don't know what it is you don't like in the starfield and you refuse to give straight answers - like telling which of the starfields in that comparision shot you prefer. Thus far you have not given a straight answer one way or another. Maybe clicking the link is too much trouble, so here's the image directly.

(http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3882/starshotqu0.png)

Quote
FRED changes are another matter. There are errors of obvious relevance so I'm asking the FSU to cooperate with the FSCRP when it comes to changes of that kind. People are free to say that the new starfield is so much better, but I don't tolerate people doing the same when discussing FRED changes. Among the changes, some are to be considered errors ("Sc" designation, prefixes in ship names) while others are to be considered unnecessary changes (replacement of the Carthage in "A Lion at the Door").

On SC designation issue I agree with you. On the matter of using prefixes in ship names, there are several reasons for doing it.

First, although the voice acting isn't consistent, in most of the briefings the ship prefixes are used with the names.
First and a half, using the ship prefixes promotes internal consistency since in most cases the voice acting uses the prefixes.
Secondly, you can directly see the ship type on the Escort list.
Third, as an opinion, it makes sense to me to have my ship's interface showing me the prefix as well as the name.

Regarding FREDding changes, I have no comments as I have not done anything with FRED. But I suspect there has been a reason behind the changes such as described, even though you might think it's unnecessary. Like said, though, I'll leave it for the responsible party to explain and/or change. My limited experience in FSU team is that things are very rarely done without a reason behind the change, even if I don't know it.


Also, I have to agree with General Battuta - why so serious?
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 05, 2009, 12:24:28 pm
You really need to answer the starfield question, Mobius. You made a big deal out of it, now wrap it up. Which one do you prefer?
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: blowfish on June 05, 2009, 12:30:37 pm
You really need to answer the starfield question, Mobius. You made a big deal out of it, now wrap it up. Which one do you prefer?

And why.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Hades on June 05, 2009, 12:32:32 pm
[snip]
Same thing for you. You're not needed here.
Look, Mobius, General Battuta has as much of a right to post here as you do, so don't rudely tell him "You're not needed here" when he's trying to help you.

And please, tell us which starfield you prefer and why you prefer it.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Jeff Vader on June 05, 2009, 12:41:48 pm
Mobius: if your next post doesn't give a straight and thorough answer on why you dislike Herra Tohtori's starfield, I will lock this thread. I, for one, am sick of you complaining for the sake of complaining. Everyone has the right to have opinions on all matters, but if you dislike the starfield and want it changed, at least tell us why.

Protip: "meh" is not descriptive.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: karajorma on June 05, 2009, 12:44:56 pm
Same thing for you. You're not needed here.

Battuta is a Global Moderator in case you hadn't noticed. It is his job to deal with the kind of nonsense that is going on in this thread.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: M87 on June 05, 2009, 02:35:00 pm
@Mobius

I was actually speaking to Kolgena. You may not notice it from your own point of view, but your attitude and diction is not helping your cause. The administrators have been patient with you so far despite your comments, so don't push it. Keep it civilized.

@castor

Glad you like the new lighting. Actually, I haven't made any new stars for the unknown binary system in that mission, so I think the retail blue stars are being used there. I'm planning on replacing those stars one of these days. I just wanted to make sure you and everyone else who mentioned that the stars looked monochromatic were seeing the same stars that I'm seeing.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Sandwich on June 05, 2009, 05:43:48 pm
*exudes mandatory calming, civilizing, and get-along-ing influence on everyone in this thread*

Seriously, guys. We're all on the same side. Lighten up, be civil, and play nicely. I'd be much obliged... :)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Zacam on June 05, 2009, 10:50:18 pm
Quote from: Mobius
Among the changes, some are to be considered errors ("Sc" designation, prefixes in ship names) while others are to be considered unnecessary changes (replacement of the Carthage in "A Lion at the Door").

The GTD Carthage, as an Orion Class Warship, is still present in the mission in question. And while _most_ of the dialogues in that mission simply refer to it as "Carthage", it refers to itself as follows:

Quote from: SM1-04.fs2
$Name: Status

$Team: -1
$MessageNew:  XSTR("This is the GTD Carthage. What's your status, pilots?", 715)
$end_multi_text
+Persona: Large Ship
+AVI Name: Head-CM5
+Wave Name: SM104_CA_01.wav

That reason, as well as the fact that  in :v: missions, the number of ships that have the Class prefix in their name OUTNUMBERED those that did not, was part of why I went forward with an effort (well meaning, and well meant) of introducing some consistency.. And then there are the Nameplates, which ALSO boldly proclaim the ship Class designation. Is it possibly overkill? Yeah, I can see it being a little over. And if people want to vote the consistency wheel to go the other direction and I completely remove them, fine. But frankly, aesthetically and personally, it drove me NUTS to have a prefix in one mission, and then another mission with the same ship NOT. Only to have it again later.

The small case 'c', as has been acknowledged by anyone and everyone, is indeed a mistake. But a simple PM to anyone (_ESPECIALLY_ me) as soon as you first noticed it? Would have been _PRICELESS_. Instead, I find out about it NOW, because like most people, things randomly and frequently can slip my mind or my notice.

And I don't mind finding out about it now. I would have liked earlier. What I don't like is HOW I am finding it out in a manner that makes it seem like the entire integrity and existence of the FSU is being called in to question because of a simple. ****ing. mistake.

One which, incidentally, has already been fixed as soon as I commit it to our svn.

As an FSU member, I have not noticed or received any messages, public or private, in regards to any requests to the FSU as a group or as individuals, wherein any request for assistance or co-operation was made on the behalf of the FSCRP. And the FSCRP is not the only group to have experienced adverse side effects from relying on the previous BETA 3.6.10 release and having it break when we posted a 3.6.10 refresh 12/08/08.

We worked rather quickly and as diligently as we could to address, understand and/or resolve anything that was brought to our attention.

But you, Mobius, as of this moment, could frankly almost piss me off more than any body else here has ever managed to do. And that would be unfortunate. Because as it has been pointed out, it is not that you are wrong. What is wrong is how you (to my perception) point out that you know for an utter certainty that you are right and no other consideration be needed or given, and you go out of your way, tighter than a bull dogs jaws, to make sure that anybody who hasn't already heard KNOWS about it.

I've held off replying directly, because I did not want to just let my fingers fly out a post that would get nowhere. So I took since this thread started, reading every post. Then I left it alone, put it out of my mind, and then came back and did it again. And Every. Single. Time. I got the exact. Same. Impression.

I don't _care_ if you are right or wrong. I don't _care_ if you are in a minority position or a figure of authority. If you are posting on this board and playing this game and you even think you spot something done wrong, instead of "You got this wrong. It's supposed to be (insert here whatever)", try instead "I noticed this, but I don't remember it being that way, did something change, or was it not noticed?"

And as for my personal co-operation: Mobius, I will respect any piece of factual information that you supply. Your personal opinion is your own and your welcome to it.

To everyone else: SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT THE GORAM SKYBOX ALREADY. Please. Thank You.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: karajorma on June 06, 2009, 08:16:36 am
like most people, things randomly and frequently can slip my mind or my notice.

Maybe you should get yourselves a public or private FSUP project on HLP Mantis then. :) I'd certainly love to see people making more use of it.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Black Wolf on June 06, 2009, 10:26:34 am
For what it's worth, I've always used GTSc, not to stand for Science Cruiser but to distinguish the Faustus from things like the GTS Centaur and GTS Hygeia, in much the same way as the GTCv Deimos is distinct from the GTC Aeolus. Note that he Hippo is not the GTMF Hippocrates, despite being clearly called a medical frigate on at least one occasion.

All that to one side though, it is much ado about a shift key.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Dilmah G on June 06, 2009, 10:35:29 am
Exactly, the game still works doesn't it? :P
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Rhymes on June 06, 2009, 07:11:51 pm
I'd like to put in my $0.02

I personally think that the issue of GTSc vs. GTSC is pointless. It is an issue about capitalization that's getting far more attention than it deserves.  Besided, SC works as Science Cruiser, but Sc also makes sense as Science cruiser.  It really doesn't matter.

About the starfield in the picture: I like the second one better, personally.  It feels brighter, and more vibrant.  The star colors seem a little exaggerated compared to their real-life counterparts, but as everybody knows, FreeSpace =/= Reality.

Mobius: You may be making some valid points, but the way you go about doing it is disproportional to the importance of the issue.  Think about this, you have made a huge issue over a ****ing prefix.  That's a little ridiculous, even for HLP.  You have also made baseless, and even inflammatory accusations against people who do not deserve it. 

And a little message for everyone: Calm.  The ****. Down.

Enjoy the pair of pennies, everyone!  :p
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 12:10:19 pm
I'm posting this because General Battuta told me to via PM. Please note that I haven't read the posts that preceed this one because... [this part of the post is missing]

I prefer the old starfield map because a) it's compatible with the additional Sol map (they have to work in tandem) and b) the stars are much more prominent. The new map has more variety in terms of colors, however, and I appreciate that.

Bye.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Rhymes on June 07, 2009, 12:14:25 pm
 :wtf:  How are the stars in the old one more prominent?  They're duller, if anything.  Please explain.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2009, 12:18:59 pm
I'm posting this because General Battuta told me to via PM. Please note that I haven't read the posts that preceed this one because... [this part of the post is missing]

I prefer the old starfield map because a) it's compatible with the additional Sol map (they have to work in tandem) and b) the stars are much more prominent. The new map has more variety in terms of colors, however, and I appreciate that.

Bye.

Mobius, I appreciate the post, but we asked you to pick one of the two images posted above. Not 'old one' or 'new one.'
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 12:24:45 pm
Check your PMs, Battuta.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2009, 12:26:39 pm
Understood.

One of these two images. (http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3882/starshotqu0.png)

I'll lock the thread if anyone flames you once you answer.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Rodo on June 07, 2009, 01:06:49 pm
something I noticed playing again the main FS2 campaign, in "the mystery of the trinity" the Trinity is not dissabled, and in "into the maelstrom" the GTCV Parapet is called the GTC Parapet, and it seems to be jumping in at the wrong time, I've checked the retail file and I just got dizzy about that.. I don't understand why they made it jump in that way with the trigger II but anyways.. the GTC thing might need to be changed though.


Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Lt.Cannonfodder on June 07, 2009, 01:29:42 pm
Since you guys seem to using an old version of my starfield skysphere, you might want to switch to the much improved version I recently made.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/erhba0.png)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: blowfish on June 07, 2009, 01:34:44 pm
The Parapet thing has existed since retail.  Dunno why, but meh ... not like that ship actually does anything.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2009, 02:30:05 pm
Regarding the two-starfield comparison test, Mobius has expressed his preference for the starfield on the left.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 03:12:12 pm
Understood.

One of these two images. (http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/3882/starshotqu0.png)

I'll lock the thread if anyone flames you once you answer.

As I told you via PM, I chose the one on the left. It has better compatibility with nebula and planet bitmaps, I checked it personally. It is also more compatible to separate complex skyboxes like the Sol one and what appears to be an old version of it (used in Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius, most notably in the
Spoiler:
first encounter with the Vishnans
).

something I noticed playing again the main FS2 campaign, in "the mystery of the trinity" the Trinity is not dissabled, and in "into the maelstrom" the GTCV Parapet is called the GTC Parapet, and it seems to be jumping in at the wrong time, I've checked the retail file and I just got dizzy about that.. I don't understand why they made it jump in that way with the trigger II but anyways.. the GTC thing might need to be changed though.

Are you sure? I did not notice those things... I'm pretty sure the GTCv designation remained...

EDIT: Now that I think of it, the Parapet doesn't actually jump... it has the no jump effect setting turned on...
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2009, 03:24:59 pm
That AoA skybox you're referencing is truly awful.

As for the rest, while your objections are noted, I'm pretty sure the majority of the vote is for the skybox on the right, which has more vivid, more numerous, and more beautiful stars. I've never seen any incompatibility issues, and frankly, I think you're just trying to justify that skybox to avoid admitting you're wrong.

Let's move along.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 03:29:16 pm
That AoA skybox you're referencing is truly awful.

There's a fixed and cool version. :)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2009, 03:31:57 pm
I'm sure that'd be of interest. Does Darius have it?

As a personal request, could you please stop putting smileys all over your posts like that? It doesn't help you avoid looking patronizing, high-handed, sanctimonious and condescending.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 03:36:22 pm
I don't know if Darius has it.

All I know is that it doesn't fit with the new starfield map. Me and Woomeister agreed on using the old starfield map due to its graphical compatibility.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2009, 03:37:51 pm
...how so? It's just a bunch of stars either way. Did you have some kind of additional texture in the skybox that fit between the stars?
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 03:40:09 pm
I tested it and the old starfield was better looking in that particular environment. The fact that Woomeister agrees with me is self explanatory, and I hardly believe people can point him out as a n00b when it comes to modding.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2009, 03:41:31 pm
I would need to hear from Woomeister himself, since your opinions on the topic are frankly suspect at the moment.

The old starfield simply looks like a blurry, less prominent version of the new one. I can't see how there'd be any difference.

Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 03:47:28 pm
I did notice serious differences, that's all I can say. You think the new one is the best option, but from what you're saying you surely haven't tested the differences. You're basing your opinion on... well... nothing. Furthermore, why would I choose an awful effect and add it to a modpack? It doesn't make sense...  :rolleyes:

Also, I don't understand why you need to contact Woomeister for confirmation. I've just told you what his idea is like...
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 07, 2009, 04:12:05 pm
Since you guys seem to using an old version of my starfield skysphere, you might want to switch to the much improved version I recently made.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/erhba0.png)

Do you want us to? Has there been any changes in the model itself, or is it just the starfield map that has changed?

Personally, I've always thought that the FS2 universe is rather more colourful than the relatively realistic effects in Galactica, and while that starfield is absolutely gorgeous for Galactica environment, I feel that the more colourful current MediaVP starfield might serve it's purpose better in FreeSpace 2 universe.

Also, from technical point of view... what's the field of view in that screenshot? Would I be missing much if I guessed something like -fov 0.55?


@Mobius: I appreciate the answer you gave. Although my opinion is that if you think the older starfield is better compatible with some mod asset, it's obviously more sensible to include the old starfield in that mod if that's what you want it to look like than demand that the mediaVP's revert to the older version... If we start catering to the needs of mods that choose to rely on mediaVP assets, there will never be any sort of advance as we would need to fly through all the mods that use mediaVP assets just to make sure the new version of mediaVPs does not break the mods.

Incidentally, when I was experimenting with starfields while concocting the current mediaVP starfield, I did found out that blurry, noise-rich starfields actually lend some "galaxy-like" features to the nebulas rendered on top of them so I don't think you are wholly wrong in the issue that the older starfield can look very good in certain conditions. However, as a whole my opinion was that more clearly defined stars looked better to my eye, and since the FSU team did not object and some outright expressed their approval of the starfield, it went in, and most people have apparently liked it, which I am glad of. Or at least most people have not had adverse reaction to it. I feel sorry that this is not the case for you.

That said, I don't really agree that the stars are more "prominent" on the older one. The brightest stars might be more prominent relative to the other stars in it because they have radius of several pixels. Which is something I aimed to avoid, because I wanted the stars to look as much like point sources of light as possible (which is what they were in Retail FS2 and which is what they are in reality). Stars are all the same size - a practically non-dimensional point in the sky. Their varying brightness can make them appear bigger or smaller in film or digital images and if you aim for cinematic look (like I could imagine Diaspora and, say, Fate of the Galaxy doing) that can be perfectly all right. However, when you decrease the field of view, the skybox scales up, and if the stars are bigger than one pixel, they can very easily end up as annoyingly big blobs rather than anything that resembles stars.

By the way, by far the best option regarding starfield would be a procedural one, which would allow mission designers to define some parametres for field depth and average star density or somesuch things, and field of view changes to bring forth a number of previously unseen stars and hide them when zooming out. Amongst other advantages compared to textures starfield (usage of video memory comes to mind first and foremost). However, I have no idea how feasible such an option would be to code... Also, its full usefulness would only be achieved with dynamic, user-adjustable field of view control (aka zoom feature).

Nevertheless, I think this thread has seen enough discussion about the starfields and their differences, and it should be better discussed in-depth in some other thread if there's need for it. There have been some valid points brought forth in the thread and this ridiculousness regarding artistic differences is overshadowing them for no good reason.


...7 new replies? :eek2:
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 04:18:11 pm
I also had the impression that the old starfield works better with nebulae (please note how nebulae are different from the Sol/BP minimap we were discussing). It may look wonderful alone, but I got a strange result with nebulae. This opinion is obviously open to debate, it looks like the vast majority of the community members don't agree with me on this one.

At this point, I'm asking if there are any settings that could virtually alter the new starfield's performance. I used a laptop a few days ago and noticed a difference... the new starfield map's stars were more prominent, but still not enough for me. I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I'd like to know if there are any particular video settings that may boost the quality of the new map. :)
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Snail on June 07, 2009, 04:20:09 pm
What, so you like the new map now? :P
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 07, 2009, 04:30:18 pm
I'll lock the thread if anyone flames you once you answer.


Snail... you are not helping.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 04:32:05 pm
What, so you like the new map now? :P

No, not yet. :p

It's just that I noticed unthinkable differences when I used another computer. I'd like to know if I can do something to boost the effect because I remember someone claiming that he got a better effect after changing his settings (or something like that)...
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: General Battuta on June 07, 2009, 04:32:33 pm
Look, I think even Mobius is pretty sure, deep down, that the new map is better. Let's just give him some time to ease himself into it. So don't be too harsh on him.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 04:33:56 pm
I'm not sure that it's better (at least, not yet)... it's just that, with alterered settings, I may be able to appreciate it just you do...
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 07, 2009, 04:40:20 pm
Welll... :nervous:

First I need to ask if your in-game brightness setting isn't too low, and that your display gamma is correctly calibrated (or close enough), because there sure as hell is a difference between this starfield and the default bright stars. The Beta starfield was uniform gray stars if I recall correctly, and the one in 3.6.8zetas was the infamous splotchy blob starfield...

Incorrect gamma settings can cause stuff like starfields to becomes much less or much more prominent than the creator of the texture saw on their display, so make sure your display's colour settings are at least close to good (LCD's are never ideally calibrated) and that your brightness settings are not wrong. And that there's no rogue starfield texture somewhere in your installation. You could also open the starfield in the image editor of your choice and confirm what you see is what you get...

Again, if you have trouble seeing most of the stars in the current mediaVP texture, there's something very special about your monitor settings, because they certainly show up very well on both my home PC and my parents' home PC. They are definitely more noticeable and better defined than the 3.6.10 beta VP starfield, as you can see simply by looking at the comparision shots posted by Zacam. And they are a far cry from the 3.6.8 zeta starfield.. :ick:

If you want to increase the amount of stars that are >1px in size, I'm not gonna do it. I have tried a lot of stuff when I was making this starfield, and the end result in the mediaVP's is what by my judgement (and as far as I know, other FSU team members as well) was about the best working compromise between variety and keeping the stars from not becoming annoying blobs.

(...)

But seriously, though, check your monitor settings and driver-level gamma settings... If you can, check things on a different monitor. I don't know how things look on your monitor. I don't really even understand how you're seeing what you're describing, so I don't know if you're seeing the same as I, and thus it's a bit difficult to respond in any meaningful way. Hell, take a photograph of the starfield on your display (keep the view still, no flash or other lights in the room, use smallest aperture and sensitivity settings available, and then adjust the exposure time so that the image is accurately lit) and show that to us if it helps to convey what exactly are you seeing.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Rick James on June 07, 2009, 04:44:16 pm
Quote from: HLP IRC
<Rick_James> Oh, for f*ck's sake.
<HerraTohtori> pretty much :D
<The_E> The voice of reason needs a megaphone....
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Mobius on June 07, 2009, 04:54:26 pm
Are there any recommended monitor settings?
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Rodo on June 07, 2009, 06:12:56 pm
I'm using this on a samsung LCD and it looks ok to me:

brightness 20, contrast 65, color tone: warm;
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: colecampbell666 on June 07, 2009, 07:07:51 pm
Are there any recommended monitor settings?
It varies completely from brand to brand and monitor to monitor. I'd suggest taking some general advice on settings and tweaking it from there.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Herra Tohtori on June 07, 2009, 07:27:46 pm
Good monitor calibration site (http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php#gamma-test-2.png)

That link should show a gamma calibration window. Squint your eyes; if the gradient pillar in the middle matches the "brightness" of the interlaced pillars on the sides of it at point 2.2, your monitor is reasonably well calibrated.

You can also look at this:

(http://www.av8n.com/imaging/img48/gamcal.png)


Again, move a bit further from the screen, keep the viewing angle as small as possible, and see if the brightness of the squares matches the brightness of the diamonds within them. Mine does that. Which means that for an LCD monitor, it's rather well calibrated. Most monitors need some sort of fiddling with gamma in the GPU driver settings. I use the RivaTuner's gamma calibration utility because it lets me save the gamma profile between driver changes. When you open RivaTuner's confusing interface, you'll want to click the upper "Customize" arrow, then select "Low-level desktop color schemes". Most likely you'll also want to edit each channel individually, so change to "custom color curve" mode. In my case, the window(s) look like this after calibration:

Primary display (Samsung SyncMaster 226BW)

(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7476/rivatunergammasamsung.png)

Secondary display (Hyundai ImageQuest L72D)
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9743/rivatunergammahyundail7.png)

I keep my monitor's settings at 50% brightness and 50% contrast when I am doing image editing (and most of the other time as well) and usually just set the brightness waay down when I'm reading something in the internets or writing something for a long time. Anyway, that site has a pretty comprehensive monitor calibration guides starting from brightness and contrast to colour calibration of gamma.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Lt.Cannonfodder on June 07, 2009, 11:04:27 pm
Do you want us to? Has there been any changes in the model itself, or is it just the starfield map that has changed?
I've upgraded both. The model itself now makes much better use of the texture space and there's no longer any stretching whatsoever. The texture itself is also much better than the old one.

Quote
Personally, I've always thought that the FS2 universe is rather more colourful than the relatively realistic effects in Galactica, and while that starfield is absolutely gorgeous for Galactica environment, I feel that the more colourful current MediaVP starfield might serve it's purpose better in FreeSpace 2 universe.
Nothing a quick Photoshop job wouldn't fix. I can easily produce a version with more colorful stars.

Quote
Also, from technical point of view... what's the field of view in that screenshot? Would I be missing much if I guessed something like -fov 0.55?
Default fov as I recall.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Col. Fishguts on June 12, 2009, 10:58:22 am
Do you want us to? Has there been any changes in the model itself, or is it just the starfield map that has changed?
I've upgraded both. The model itself now makes much better use of the texture space and there's no longer any stretching whatsoever. The texture itself is also much better than the old one.

Well, is it available somewhere for download? If yes, I'd gladly take it.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Lt.Cannonfodder on June 16, 2009, 04:03:58 am
Sorry, missed your post there Fishguts. I'll send you a download link via PM when I get home.
Title: Re: Changes
Post by: Col. Fishguts on June 21, 2009, 06:16:11 pm
Sorry, missed your post there Fishguts. I'll send you a download link via PM when I get home.

Or maybe not ;)