Author Topic: Changes  (Read 20143 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Lt.Cannonfodder

  • 210
  • Digitalous Grunteous
Since you guys seem to using an old version of my starfield skysphere, you might want to switch to the much improved version I recently made.


 

Offline blowfish

  • 211
  • Join the cult of KILL MY ROUTER!!!!!!!!!!1
The Parapet thing has existed since retail.  Dunno why, but meh ... not like that ship actually does anything.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Regarding the two-starfield comparison test, Mobius has expressed his preference for the starfield on the left.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
Understood.

One of these two images.

I'll lock the thread if anyone flames you once you answer.

As I told you via PM, I chose the one on the left. It has better compatibility with nebula and planet bitmaps, I checked it personally. It is also more compatible to separate complex skyboxes like the Sol one and what appears to be an old version of it (used in Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius, most notably in the
Spoiler:
first encounter with the Vishnans
).

something I noticed playing again the main FS2 campaign, in "the mystery of the trinity" the Trinity is not dissabled, and in "into the maelstrom" the GTCV Parapet is called the GTC Parapet, and it seems to be jumping in at the wrong time, I've checked the retail file and I just got dizzy about that.. I don't understand why they made it jump in that way with the trigger II but anyways.. the GTC thing might need to be changed though.

Are you sure? I did not notice those things... I'm pretty sure the GTCv designation remained...

EDIT: Now that I think of it, the Parapet doesn't actually jump... it has the no jump effect setting turned on...
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
That AoA skybox you're referencing is truly awful.

As for the rest, while your objections are noted, I'm pretty sure the majority of the vote is for the skybox on the right, which has more vivid, more numerous, and more beautiful stars. I've never seen any incompatibility issues, and frankly, I think you're just trying to justify that skybox to avoid admitting you're wrong.

Let's move along.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
That AoA skybox you're referencing is truly awful.

There's a fixed and cool version. :)
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
I'm sure that'd be of interest. Does Darius have it?

As a personal request, could you please stop putting smileys all over your posts like that? It doesn't help you avoid looking patronizing, high-handed, sanctimonious and condescending.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
I don't know if Darius has it.

All I know is that it doesn't fit with the new starfield map. Me and Woomeister agreed on using the old starfield map due to its graphical compatibility.
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
...how so? It's just a bunch of stars either way. Did you have some kind of additional texture in the skybox that fit between the stars?

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
I tested it and the old starfield was better looking in that particular environment. The fact that Woomeister agrees with me is self explanatory, and I hardly believe people can point him out as a n00b when it comes to modding.
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
I would need to hear from Woomeister himself, since your opinions on the topic are frankly suspect at the moment.

The old starfield simply looks like a blurry, less prominent version of the new one. I can't see how there'd be any difference.


 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
I did notice serious differences, that's all I can say. You think the new one is the best option, but from what you're saying you surely haven't tested the differences. You're basing your opinion on... well... nothing. Furthermore, why would I choose an awful effect and add it to a modpack? It doesn't make sense...  :rolleyes:

Also, I don't understand why you need to contact Woomeister for confirmation. I've just told you what his idea is like...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 03:56:25 pm by Mobius »
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

  

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Since you guys seem to using an old version of my starfield skysphere, you might want to switch to the much improved version I recently made.



Do you want us to? Has there been any changes in the model itself, or is it just the starfield map that has changed?

Personally, I've always thought that the FS2 universe is rather more colourful than the relatively realistic effects in Galactica, and while that starfield is absolutely gorgeous for Galactica environment, I feel that the more colourful current MediaVP starfield might serve it's purpose better in FreeSpace 2 universe.

Also, from technical point of view... what's the field of view in that screenshot? Would I be missing much if I guessed something like -fov 0.55?


@Mobius: I appreciate the answer you gave. Although my opinion is that if you think the older starfield is better compatible with some mod asset, it's obviously more sensible to include the old starfield in that mod if that's what you want it to look like than demand that the mediaVP's revert to the older version... If we start catering to the needs of mods that choose to rely on mediaVP assets, there will never be any sort of advance as we would need to fly through all the mods that use mediaVP assets just to make sure the new version of mediaVPs does not break the mods.

Incidentally, when I was experimenting with starfields while concocting the current mediaVP starfield, I did found out that blurry, noise-rich starfields actually lend some "galaxy-like" features to the nebulas rendered on top of them so I don't think you are wholly wrong in the issue that the older starfield can look very good in certain conditions. However, as a whole my opinion was that more clearly defined stars looked better to my eye, and since the FSU team did not object and some outright expressed their approval of the starfield, it went in, and most people have apparently liked it, which I am glad of. Or at least most people have not had adverse reaction to it. I feel sorry that this is not the case for you.

That said, I don't really agree that the stars are more "prominent" on the older one. The brightest stars might be more prominent relative to the other stars in it because they have radius of several pixels. Which is something I aimed to avoid, because I wanted the stars to look as much like point sources of light as possible (which is what they were in Retail FS2 and which is what they are in reality). Stars are all the same size - a practically non-dimensional point in the sky. Their varying brightness can make them appear bigger or smaller in film or digital images and if you aim for cinematic look (like I could imagine Diaspora and, say, Fate of the Galaxy doing) that can be perfectly all right. However, when you decrease the field of view, the skybox scales up, and if the stars are bigger than one pixel, they can very easily end up as annoyingly big blobs rather than anything that resembles stars.

By the way, by far the best option regarding starfield would be a procedural one, which would allow mission designers to define some parametres for field depth and average star density or somesuch things, and field of view changes to bring forth a number of previously unseen stars and hide them when zooming out. Amongst other advantages compared to textures starfield (usage of video memory comes to mind first and foremost). However, I have no idea how feasible such an option would be to code... Also, its full usefulness would only be achieved with dynamic, user-adjustable field of view control (aka zoom feature).

Nevertheless, I think this thread has seen enough discussion about the starfields and their differences, and it should be better discussed in-depth in some other thread if there's need for it. There have been some valid points brought forth in the thread and this ridiculousness regarding artistic differences is overshadowing them for no good reason.


...7 new replies? :eek2:
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
I also had the impression that the old starfield works better with nebulae (please note how nebulae are different from the Sol/BP minimap we were discussing). It may look wonderful alone, but I got a strange result with nebulae. This opinion is obviously open to debate, it looks like the vast majority of the community members don't agree with me on this one.

At this point, I'm asking if there are any settings that could virtually alter the new starfield's performance. I used a laptop a few days ago and noticed a difference... the new starfield map's stars were more prominent, but still not enough for me. I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I'd like to know if there are any particular video settings that may boost the quality of the new map. :)
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
What, so you like the new map now? :P

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
I'll lock the thread if anyone flames you once you answer.


Snail... you are not helping.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
What, so you like the new map now? :P

No, not yet. :p

It's just that I noticed unthinkable differences when I used another computer. I'd like to know if I can do something to boost the effect because I remember someone claiming that he got a better effect after changing his settings (or something like that)...
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Look, I think even Mobius is pretty sure, deep down, that the new map is better. Let's just give him some time to ease himself into it. So don't be too harsh on him.

 

Offline Mobius

  • Back where he started
  • 213
  • Porto l'azzurro Dolce Stil Novo nella fantascienza
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • The Lightblue Ribbon | Cultural Project
I'm not sure that it's better (at least, not yet)... it's just that, with alterered settings, I may be able to appreciate it just you do...
The Lightblue Ribbon

Inferno: Nostos - Alliance
Series Resurrecta: {{FS Wiki Portal}} -  Gehenna's Gate - The Spirit of Ptah - Serendipity (WIP) - <REDACTED> (WIP)
FreeSpace Campaign Restoration Project
A tribute to FreeSpace in my book: Riflessioni dall'Infinito

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

  • The Academic
  • 211
  • Bad command or file name
Welll... :nervous:

First I need to ask if your in-game brightness setting isn't too low, and that your display gamma is correctly calibrated (or close enough), because there sure as hell is a difference between this starfield and the default bright stars. The Beta starfield was uniform gray stars if I recall correctly, and the one in 3.6.8zetas was the infamous splotchy blob starfield...

Incorrect gamma settings can cause stuff like starfields to becomes much less or much more prominent than the creator of the texture saw on their display, so make sure your display's colour settings are at least close to good (LCD's are never ideally calibrated) and that your brightness settings are not wrong. And that there's no rogue starfield texture somewhere in your installation. You could also open the starfield in the image editor of your choice and confirm what you see is what you get...

Again, if you have trouble seeing most of the stars in the current mediaVP texture, there's something very special about your monitor settings, because they certainly show up very well on both my home PC and my parents' home PC. They are definitely more noticeable and better defined than the 3.6.10 beta VP starfield, as you can see simply by looking at the comparision shots posted by Zacam. And they are a far cry from the 3.6.8 zeta starfield.. :ick:

If you want to increase the amount of stars that are >1px in size, I'm not gonna do it. I have tried a lot of stuff when I was making this starfield, and the end result in the mediaVP's is what by my judgement (and as far as I know, other FSU team members as well) was about the best working compromise between variety and keeping the stars from not becoming annoying blobs.

(...)

But seriously, though, check your monitor settings and driver-level gamma settings... If you can, check things on a different monitor. I don't know how things look on your monitor. I don't really even understand how you're seeing what you're describing, so I don't know if you're seeing the same as I, and thus it's a bit difficult to respond in any meaningful way. Hell, take a photograph of the starfield on your display (keep the view still, no flash or other lights in the room, use smallest aperture and sensitivity settings available, and then adjust the exposure time so that the image is accurately lit) and show that to us if it helps to convey what exactly are you seeing.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 05:00:51 pm by Herra Tohtori »
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.