Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Aardwolf on June 28, 2009, 03:22:13 am
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Introduction:
I've decided I'm not going to ask how people theorize subspace works, and start making up how it works. Mainly, I'm focusing on the requirements for and limitations of subspace travel. This explanation is meant to be compatible with the way it canonically works, but I'm taking a few liberties in order to explain some things. Why they can never get the jump coordinates right, or maybe why they don't just jump a meson bomb into the sath's interior, etc.
Disclaimer: except for the canon stuff I'm making up this non-canon stuff to explain, this stuff is non-canon stuff, and should not be treated as canon-stuff. It's just for fun. If you think this non-canon stuff is plausible enough to fit into the canon stuff and you'd like to use some of it as a basis for your own non-canon stuff, you are welcome to use this non-canon stuff and the canon stuff this non-canon stuff was based on to do so, but you must not discuss this non-canon stuff as though it is canon stuff.
The Explanation Proper:
For a ship to jump, the jump drive hardware can't be destroyed or badly damaged. The ship's navigation computer must determine how to get to the ship's destination before it will allow a jump. When the jump drive is successfully activated, a "rift" into subspace opens, and the ship is able to enter subspace through it. The ship then travels through subspace, approaching the point of exit.
While in subspace, the ship is effectively in a universe unconnected to our own, and unless its entry into subspace is done nearly identically to the entry of another ship not too long before (as the Bastion's fighter and bomber wings did when entering subspace behind the Lucifer), in a universe effectively unconnected to any other ships in subspace. So in general, when a ship enters subspace, it has no chance of encountering another ship there. Communication between ships in normal space and ships in subspace (as was done in the Delta Serpentis-Sol battle) is only possible under the same conditions needed to track a ship and enter subspace with it. So before the Terrans got the technology needed to track a ship into subspace, it would have been impossible for a ship in subspace to communicate with command. Even with this technology, it is still quite difficult to communicate with ships during intra-system jumps, more so than for inter-system jumpsHm... this kinda renders a big chunk of Derelict's plot impossible
The point of exit for an intra-system jump is determined by two sets of factors:
First are the factors which are determined by the state of the jump drive when it is activated, determined by the data sent to the jump drive by the navigation computer prior to the jump.
Second are the conditions in the actual area the first set of factors would have defined as the ship nears arrival there. The main thing affecting the point of exit (aside from the point determined by the navigation computer) is how much mass is in the immediate area around the destination. The ship will exit through a sort of point of least resistance. More mass in an area generally corresponds to more resistance to the ship exiting at that point. This effect is strong enough to make jumping into an atmosphere difficult. Of course, then, the idea of intra-system jumping a meson bomb to the inside of an enemy warship, though it might seem clever, is impossible.
Bleh
While writing this I kept vascillating between making up techno-babble and not wanting to write anything that wasn't absolutely necessary to explain stuff.
Anyway, I don't feel like trying any more. If anybody else wants to theorize, go ahead. Here's a nice place.
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I agree with everything you said thar.
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While your disclaimer does mention this is not canon, you do mention you base yourself on canon to write this, but there are errors.
The Explanation Proper:
For a ship to jump, the jump drive hardware can't be destroyed or badly damaged. The ship's navigation computer must determine how to get to the ship's destination before it will allow a jump.
While this makes sense, apparently the state of the navigation computer does not affect the jump drive, as one can easily return to base with his navigation subsystem destroyed. One could theorize this can be accomplished as the ship's main computer would hold the coordinates of the ship the fighter is stationned on and thus could still "return home" with his Nav subsystem destroyed. This can also explain how one can still jump to another location that is not "home" because Command can update the information contained in the fighter's on-board computer without any comm subsystem involvement (see objectives display)
While in subspace, the ship is effectively in a universe unconnected to our own, and unless its entry into subspace is done nearly identically to the entry of another ship not too long before (as the Bastion's fighter and bomber wings did when entering subspace behind the Lucifer), in a universe effectively unconnected to any other ships in subspace. So in general, when a ship enters subspace, it has no chance of encountering another ship there. Communication between ships in normal space and ships in subspace (as was done in the Delta Serpentis-Sol battle) is only possible under the same conditions needed to track a ship and enter subspace with it. So before the Terrans got the technology needed to track a ship into subspace, it would have been impossible for a ship in subspace to communicate with command. Even with this technology, it is still quite difficult to communicate with ships during intra-system jumps, more so than for inter-system jumpsHm... this kinda renders a big chunk of Derelict's plot impossible
Again, it makes sense because "tracking" the lucifer through subspace, if the nodes were simply conduits, would have been easy as you'd only need to stick ships in all your subspace conduits to detect a ship incoming. The fact that it opens a rift and that another craft opening a rift through the same node would never see each other unless they were effectively tracking and following each other makes a lot of sense. A subspace node is not a worm hole which has been shown to be a simple conduit between two points in space but are massively unstable (ref: ST:DS9)
Unless i forget a specific mission, this theory wouldn't render a big chunk of Derelict impossible. Derelict has missions early on where you get updates, but they could have simply been pre-programmed messages by Tau Sigma Station. Unless I forget, as I said, I do not believe there are other missions in derelict that open on a mission update screen which represent an intra-system communication. Also the only canon reference of communication between ships out and in subspace is in FS1(Good Luck) except some references in FS2 that a ship was coming out of subspace soon (thus most likely having reported to command they are approching coordinates)
By the way, where do you get this theory that intra-system jumps would make communication harder than inter-system jumps?
The point of exit for an intra-system jump is determined by two sets of factors:
First are the factors which are determined by the state of the jump drive when it is activated, determined by the data sent to the jump drive by the navigation computer prior to the jump.
Second are the conditions in the actual area the first set of factors would have defined as the ship nears arrival there. The main thing affecting the point of exit (aside from the point determined by the navigation computer) is how much mass is in the immediate area around the destination. The ship will exit through a sort of point of least resistance. More mass in an area generally corresponds to more resistance to the ship exiting at that point. This effect is strong enough to make jumping into an atmosphere difficult. Of course, then, the idea of intra-system jumping a meson bomb to the inside of an enemy warship, though it might seem clever, is impossible.
Your first point makes absolute sense, but again, there has to be a backup somewhere as the nav computer does not seem required in subspace jumps.
jumping a meson bomb into a sath wouldn't work according to the mass=resistance theory, but what about commercial lanes? If there is a lot of travel in a precise area, there is more mass, and thus you would actually have jump issues...not very practical for trading ships. While we do not really see any civvy operations, we can assume that there ARE civilian space stations designed for trade, that there are trading lanes and that those ships have rallying points, which means your mass=resistance theory does not consistently work. Some other force must be at work as well as a mass/resistance ratio.
Anyone wants to add to this?
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I believe there was a discussion about that some time ago. Something about a bomb burrowing into a ship and opening a subspace portal, sucking the hapless vessel into itself.
That would be cool.
Nothing happens when we fly through a subspace vortex generated for another ship to pass through. Also, judging from the tech description, I have the impression that each vortex is supposed to work for the ship that generated it, only. I might be wrong, though.
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Wow. I didn't actually know that you could jump home without your NAV. I always repaired it before trying.
Anyways, I agree with most of the above, and would add:
1. Subspace seems heavily affected by gravity. Because gravity bends spacetime, it also stretches the connections between real space and subspace, meaning that conduits between the two would be more unstable than than would be safe. Perhaps this is why ships can't jump in or out within a certain distance of masses moon-sized and above safely, but aren't restricted to jumping if in a pinch. Planetary or stellar gravity could probably even be strong enough to tear a subspace corridor in half and stick the torn end into a point in real space, effectively pulling whatever was in it out into real space before its destination.
2. Subspace seems to be node-dependent for inter-system jumps. Logically, it may also be node-dependent for intra-system jumps. I'm thinking that doing a jump is kind of like using the Subtle Knife from His Dark Materials, where tiny points in space are exploitable as entrances into subspace. These points can connect between any two points in the universe, do not have mass or dimensions, and function as the rivets between subspace and real space. Due to some other reason that I'm also making up, these linkages are more stable and more numerous for short distances, and their stability and occurrence drops off as distance increases, or as more curves in space-time between two points get in the way. This perhaps explains why Terran jumps are always imprecise when doing intrasystem jumps: our jump systems aren't sophisticated enough to use less stable small nodes, and can only find the lowest-acceptable-stability node closest to the coords you want to go to. Shivans have better computers and drives, hence they have more nodes they can use, and will be able to use conduits less stable and closer towards the desired coords.
3. Enough mass going through or sitting in a subspace portal for long enough will collapse it. Gravitational fields made by the objects interact with real space as well as subspace, effectively pulling the two together, which will bend the corridor and collapse it. This is probably why some nodes let small ships in, but not larger ships.
4. You can enter a node/conduit from any direction because the dimensions of real space and subspace are not interdependent.
5. Subspace corridors exist in the void between alternate universes (for compatibility in campaigns like sync, BP, etc)
6. Destroying your NAV or subspace drive while in subspace won't collapse the portal but may leave you stranded in it until you are repaired. (seems to be the case in most subspace scenarios) The corridor is always there, regardless of what's in it, but getting into and out of it requires calculations and a jump drive.
7. You can't open warp holes in any object with mass because you need space to form a vortex for you, and mass stabilizes space by being in it.
All of the above are figments of my mind. I'm just churning out ideas I've though of or had read before.
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As long as it contains a lot of arrows, Greek letters and one of the strange integral symbols somewhere, It'll do an as explanation for me ;)
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Nothing happens when we fly through a subspace vortex generated for another ship to pass through. Also, judging from the tech description, I have the impression that each vortex is supposed to work for the ship that generated it, only. I might be wrong, though.
Last cutscene of FS1, you see fighters flying out the Lucifer's warp hole. I'm assuming it's a game engine limitation or balancing thing that prevents you from leaving the game when you didn't mean to.
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The Lucifer's a big ship, and making the jump to another system might not be the same as making an intrasystem jump.
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I believe there was a discussion about that some time ago. Something about a bomb burrowing into a ship and opening a subspace portal, sucking the hapless vessel into itself.
That would be cool.
Reminds me of the similar concept of a warp core implosion thingy that can happen in games of Battlefleet Gothic.
Debris of the Bastion appeared to get sucked into the node once it had been opened and after the Meson bombs exploded, suggesting that separate objects can enter a single subspace portal. In-game, whenever we see ships emerging from a node, they always emerge from their own portals, yet the fighters in the last FS1 mission were all in the same subspace tunnel. It seems that ships have to jump into and out of subspace tunnels, by forming their own entrance and exit portals, respectively. I don't think anything is clear about how exiting subspace node portals works though.
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The Explanation Proper:
For a ship to jump, the jump drive hardware can't be destroyed or badly damaged. The ship's navigation computer must determine how to get to the ship's destination before it will allow a jump.
While this makes sense, apparently the state of the navigation computer does not affect the jump drive, as one can easily return to base with his navigation subsystem destroyed. One could theorize this can be accomplished as the ship's main computer would hold the coordinates of the ship the fighter is stationned on and thus could still "return home" with his Nav subsystem destroyed. This can also explain how one can still jump to another location that is not "home" because Command can update the information contained in the fighter's on-board computer without any comm subsystem involvement (see objectives display)
There's an AI Profiles option that only allows jumping if your NAV is above 30%.
If I recall correctly, at one point, it was on by default.
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I think that if you've "synchronized" your ship with the subspace (n-dimensional) frequency of another ship which is about to enter subspace (or is still en transit), you can follow it into its own subspace portal, as seen in the Endgame video of FreeSpace 1. Supported by this statement:
In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked.
If your ship isn't synchronized to the right n-dimensional frequency of another ship, then going through the warp hole will be like going through mist or cloud, ie. it has no noticeable effect.
When a jump portal is opened, the ship creating it is sucked in, like the Bastion's debris (apparently the warp drive was still active despite being exploded...)
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A great :yes: for Snail...
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Requesting merge with (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,64035.0.html)
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Last cutscene of FS1, you see fighters flying out the Lucifer's warp hole. I'm assuming it's a game engine limitation or balancing thing that prevents you from leaving the game when you didn't mean to.
Or, much more likely, we couldn't see their jump vortexes because of the size of the Lucifer's.
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Well, those fighters were in the same tunnel as the Lucifer.
They entered after, but were "synchronized" to the Lucifer in its journey...so that's how they came out through the same hole.
This goes back to what Snail said about being synchronized with the other ship.
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Not only that, but I am CERTAIN I read somewhere that initially, :v: had wanted to make a single subspace vortex per group of emerging craft, such as an entire wing spawning from a single spot, but changed their minds (maybe for performance reasons?)
But yeah, the same conduit is being navigated by both the GTA strike force and the lucy as well.
Oh, and also,
There's an AI Profiles option that only allows jumping if your NAV is above 30%.
If I recall correctly, at one point, it was on by default.
If i recall though, in retail FS2 there were no problems jumping out with NAV taken out.
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Not only that, but I am CERTAIN I read somewhere that initially, :v: had wanted to make a single subspace vortex per group of emerging craft, such as an entire wing spawning from a single spot, but changed their minds (maybe for performance reasons?)
That's in the Reference Bible, for the FS1 intro. Something like, "Several portals opened, and from them, streams of Shivan fighters poured".
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Not only that, but I am CERTAIN I read somewhere that initially, :v: had wanted to make a single subspace vortex per group of emerging craft, such as an entire wing spawning from a single spot, but changed their minds (maybe for performance reasons?)
That's in the Reference Bible, for the FS1 intro. Something like, "Several portals opened, and from them, streams of Shivan fighters poured".
Well, aside from it never happening that way in any canon mission, the FS1 endgame cutscene does make it look possible. I got stuck earlier trying to make up something to describe what it's like to exit subspace. I mean, we got that one look at the Lucifer and the strike team exiting subspace, but it was from the outside, and there was no glimpse of what it looked like as the fighters approached the destination.
The bit about the synchronization I basically said because it looks like the ships are moving rapidly through subspace (in in-subspace missions), even if their speed is zero. I figured, if that's what it looks like going one way, for ships going the other direction, I figured they shouldn't ever meet... I mean, the backgrounds for each would be going opposite directions, and anyway the ships are going faster than light in opposite directions (at least on the real-space side). Also, that was part of what I came up with to work in the need for sub 'tracking' technology.
I think that if you've "synchronized" your ship with the subspace (n-dimensional) frequency of another ship which is about to enter subspace (or is still en transit), you can follow it into its own subspace portal
Well, that's basically what I was trying to say, except I didn't feel like resorting to technobabble. Basically, you've got to match some not-incredibly-obvious and nigh-impossible-to-match-accidentally values the first ship used to enter subspace.
Another of the things I was basing some of this stuff on was the fact that it is possible for command to communicate with you during several missions when there are no allied space stations or warships or whatever in the area. That signaled to me that they'd have to be somehow sending messages through subspace. Also, you can obviously receive messages in subspace (as evident from Command panicking at you over the comm system as you try to stop the Lucifer). To me, it seemed odd that if there were so many different possible routes through a jump node such communication, that these messages could have been simultaneously entering every conceivable path in order to communicate (that is, before the 'tracking' technology came along). So I figured they needed to use the same tracking info for that as for the pursuit-jump. As for communicating with the system on the other side (which I seem to recall was done at least once in one of the games), that might be easier to do, because regardless of which route through subspace the signal goes through, it would still end up in the correct system, and (depending on how the final heading is determined), possibly directed the right way. Of course, they might be using something else for that... maybe even quantum entanglement :p ... Actually, the fact that the sending of information faster than light using quantum entanglement is effectively sci-fi crap doesn't mean the phenomenon isn't useful for encrypted light-speed communication, and, in a FreeSpace context, possibly into and out of the fictional realm of subspace. But I'm just making stuff up, there.
It seems to me that, because there are so many more options as far as destination, and other stuff, with intra-system jumps it would be very difficult to utilize the sort of tracking that they used to take down the Luci... that, even if the ship could be tracked to its destination, by the time you could get in with it, it would already be at its destination. Also, now that I think about it, it seems like Command probably used the tracking tech to figure figure out that the Belisarius was heading for your convoy in "Surrender, Belisarius!"... but, since such tracking isn't widely available even by the time of FS2 (I seem to recall there being
Maybe the 'tracking' isn't necessary if the ships are friendly and transmit their jump information to each other... that would make that simpler anyway. I hadn't thought of that possibility, however, so I based that bit about it being impossible for ships making intra-system jumps to get messages from command on that...
As for what I said about Derelict, anyone saying it doesn't conflict has obviously forgotten that the Nyarlathotep was encountered drifting in subspace, and that the entire sequence featured ships (and debris) idling in the same subspace corridor for an extended period of time--ages, probably, for the debris.
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:yes:
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As for what I said about Derelict, anyone saying it doesn't conflict has obviously forgotten that the Nyarlathotep was encountered drifting in subspace, and that the entire sequence featured ships (and debris) idling in the same subspace corridor for an extended period of time--ages, probably, for the debris.
Point conceded about the debris; however, the Nyarlathotep was brought out into sync with the ships currently in subspace by the explosion of an AWACS...now this might have been pure mathematical "luck" on that part, but it could be possible given that large explosions cause problems with subspace corridors.
The fact there IS an AWACS vessel also can justify why streams of fighters keep popping in, as those fighters were probably lurking in the corridor, and the AWACS having detected the convoy in subspace (if shivans can be tracked in subspace in 2335, by mere deduction, Terrans/Vasudans certainly can be as well in 2372) simply synchronised their jump drives to warp in their corridor.
But yeah, the debris remains unexplained. small victory for you there :yes:
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I seem to recall that one of the briefings said that the explosion supposedly tore a hole in the subspace corridor, and the Nyarlathotep kind of fell into it. I'm guessing that this means Derelict's interpretation of Subspace is that of corridors existing within a subspace universe where the Nyarlathotep was sitting before. This kind of makes sense, since the Nyarly couldn't possibly have been in the corridor in any n-dimensional resonance without collapsing it. (Later they say that the Nyarly's presence is destabilizing the node--this is only a few days after it falls into it, showing that its destabilizing effect is actually rather swift. Either that, or the explosion of the AWACS did something harmful)
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You're in your own subspace universe unconnected from all other ships also in subspace in the same system. However i think it's pretty suggestive in the game that other ships in subspace can get to each other if they're traveling through the same node, and only then.
In system subspace travel is quite different since you're essentially creating you're own temporary personal mini node to go from A to B (occasionally ships can come along if their on the "friends" list...everyone leaves from the same destination at the same time). Actual subspace nodes going from system to system are different because it's a common unchanging path for all vessels that go through it.
It's sort of like when you in the back country or something (think of it as being in system). You can broady and pull all the fish tails you want separate from other vehicles and go wherever you want in the back country unpredetermined. When you want to go to another city a good distance away, you're going to follow a predetermined route called the highway (think of it as taking a node to another system) that other cars hop onto at different times depending on what time they needed to leave going to the same destination are also going with the ability to slow down or speed to catch up with other vehicles.
So, bomber wings chasing down the lucifer and entering subspace a certain way at a certain time in order to be synced up with the node travel of the lucifer so all of the vessels will be in the same self contained temporary subspace universe of the lucifer to take it out is a horrid theory. If node travel was that complicated it would have been in the mission breifing for that mission and mentioned in the game's information database in the section for subspace.
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In one of the Ancient cutscenes, it is said that "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked. " if a ship always meets another whenever they meet in an inter-system subspace node, what's the point of tracking them?
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Subspace tracking would still be handy. Being able to detect ships in subspace while you're not. Certainly increases awareness and tactical advantage.
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It's also possible that, before the Ancient data was discovered, ships were unable to obtain sensor lock on other ships in subspace even at close range, since that could conceivably fall under the umbrella of "tracking." If that were the case, it would have been next to impossible to take out the Lucifer's reactors even if one did manage to get right on its tail as it entered a node. I do share S-99's opinion of intersystem nodes; I've always viewed them as being akin to other-dimensional tunnels, of fixed endpoints and extent, whereas intrasystem jumps involve punching one's own personal tunnel through subspace.
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Yeah well it creates the plothole in that they could have attacked the Lucifer earlier...they would have realized that its shields did not work in subspace as well...
Theories are meant to fix plotholes not make new ones. :P
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Except that, without subspace tracking, they'd have no real idea where the Lucifer was at present or where it was going. And like I said, even putting that aside, if you can't target the Lucifer in subspace, you can't exactly direct your bombs to take out its reactors. :p
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Yeah well it creates the plothole in that they could have attacked the Lucifer earlier...they would have realized that its shields did not work in subspace as well...
Theories are meant to fix plotholes not make new ones. :P
Indeed, s-99's theory breaks what we've been discussing this past week ;)
Most likely, if one was in subspace along with other ships, you would be able to target them normally, as shown in Good Luck (and in Derelict. I'm not about to let a bunch of debris floating in a node ruin this little subspace theory we're discussing.)
As far as I'm concerned, even though established canon is what is contained in the :v: documentation and games, I consider Derelict and ST:R to be semi-canon. Derelict holds up as an addition to the FS storyline(as discussed here), and ST:R, being made by the ones who actually work and develop on FSO, is to be a good replacement to the weak, original ST.
I plan to contribute on the wiki extensively over the next couple weeks and I will respect canon in my additions, but I submit we consider that some campaigns have grounds to be considered semi-canon.
Maybe a new thread is in order?
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No, that's absolutely not going to happen under any circumstances.
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Except that, without subspace tracking, they'd have no real idea where the Lucifer was at present or where it was going. And like I said, even putting that aside, if you can't target the Lucifer in subspace, you can't exactly direct your bombs to take out its reactors. :p
It's been stated that "long range scanners" existed long before the discovery of the Ancient records. These long-range scanners were incredibly accurate, to the extent of being capable of ascertaining the contents of Shivan cargo containers from a distance. Perhaps this is what the Orion's radar dishes are for.
Long range scanners indicate that some of these cargo containers contain unusual electronics. They appear to be similar to those used to give the Shivans their shielding technology. A short range scan of these containers is the primary objective in this operation.
I'm still under the impression that ships do not meet in subspace nodes unless they specifically enter the same warphole at the same subspace n-dimensional frequency. Unless you can give me some solid proof they don't I'll stick to mah gunz.
As far as I'm concerned, even though established canon is what is contained in the :v: documentation and games, I consider Derelict and ST:R to be semi-canon. Derelict holds up as an addition to the FS storyline(as discussed here), and ST:R, being made by the ones who actually work and develop on FSO, is to be a good replacement to the weak, original ST.
I plan to contribute on the wiki extensively over the next couple weeks and I will respect canon in my additions, but I submit we consider that some campaigns have grounds to be considered semi-canon.
Maybe a new thread is in order?
You do that, and I kill you. :D
No, srs.
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Most likely, if one was in subspace along with other ships, you would be able to target them normally, as shown in Good Luck (and in Derelict. I'm not about to let a bunch of debris floating in a node ruin this little subspace theory we're discussing.)
Note that both Good Luck and Derelict come after the discovery of subspace-tracking technology (with the latter being well after, obviously), which kind of makes that argument moot. :p
(Oh, and what Battuta said about canonicity.)
Except that, without subspace tracking, they'd have no real idea where the Lucifer was at present or where it was going. And like I said, even putting that aside, if you can't target the Lucifer in subspace, you can't exactly direct your bombs to take out its reactors. :p
It's been stated that "long range scanners" existed long before the discovery of the Ancient records. These long-range scanners were incredibly accurate, to the extent of being capable of ascertaining the contents of Shivan cargo containers from a distance. Perhaps this is what the Orion's radar dishes are for.
Long range scanners indicate that some of these cargo containers contain unusual electronics. They appear to be similar to those used to give the Shivans their shielding technology. A short range scan of these containers is the primary objective in this operation.
I'm still under the impression that ships do not meet in subspace nodes unless they specifically enter the same warphole at the same subspace n-dimensional frequency. Unless you can give me some solid proof they don't I'll stick to mah gunz.
The briefing that you quoted referenced long-range scanning on objects in normal space in the same system, which doesn't really fit into a discussion about whether normal scanning methods would hold up in the N-dimensional environment of subspace. In the end, it really does come to personal preference, as I could just as easily ask you to provide solid proof that your viewpoint is correct; either way, we're going on conjecture based on the same limited material. The way I see it, despite its non-canon status, Derelict's creators seemed to conclude that nodes acted on the tunnel model, so if that theory was good enough for them, I feel comfortable standing by it. :p
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It's also possible that, before the Ancient data was discovered, ships were unable to obtain sensor lock on other ships in subspace even at close range, since that could conceivably fall under the umbrella of "tracking."
FS combat does not take place in BVR situations except in a nebular environment, and even then it's rare. Mere lack of sensor lock is pointless as an obstacle to engaging enemy ships in subspace. Yes, some weapons cannot be fired unless locked, but there is doubtless a means to override this even if it requires being done pre-flight.
So in other words, the Ancients data was totally pointless instead of worth sending out half the Galatea's fightercraft with experimental subspace drives for; or for that matter, the HoL sending out a Typhon to stop it. The missions based around its recovery were totally needless.
Yeah ****ing right.
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Hey guys, It just struck me. Just what does N-dimensional mean anyway?
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It involves N dimensions, where N is a number. :nervous:
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That would suggest that subspace has infinite dimensions. :confused:
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It may.
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Hey guys, It just struck me. Just what does N-dimensional mean anyway?
here is the almighty wikipedia with the answer :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-dimensional (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-dimensional)
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I just wanted to put my interpretation of ships seeing each other in subspace as an easy to understand thingie which fs suggests how things are. I still think entering the node right behind the lucifer at the right time, speed, and position or whatever to be synced with the same lucifer temporary subspace contained universe is horrid.
If anything the last mission of fs1 where you catch up with the lucifer was not about entering the node at the right time, speed, position to persue with your wings of bombers and destroy it. That mission was specifically about entering the node with whatever time you had left and catch up with the lucifer inside the node and destroy it simple enough.
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You don't need to have the right time speed or position, only your computer to synch up with the Lucifer's "tunnel" so you could enter it, which is the purpose of beign able to track it (get data about it), so that your fighter's subspace drive can put you into the same tunnel rather than your own - think radio frequencies. At least, that's what I think. Anything else would create some plotholes.
If ships see each other in subspace naively, the Ancient's data would have been pointless.
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If anything the last mission of fs1 where you catch up with the lucifer was not about entering the node at the right time, speed, position to persue with your wings of bombers and destroy it. That mission was specifically about entering the node with whatever time you had left and catch up with the lucifer inside the node and destroy it simple enough.
That was the real crux of it for me. Those last few missions never mentioned anything at all about the necessity of synchronization; it was all about the raw time requirements. The Bastion was left behind in The Great Hunt simply because it couldn't physically make it to the Sol node fast enough to pursue the Lucifer.
You don't need to have the right time speed or position, only your computer to synch up with the Lucifer's "tunnel" so you could enter it, which is the purpose of beign able to track it (get data about it), so that your fighter's subspace drive can put you into the same tunnel rather than your own - think radio frequencies. At least, that's what I think. Anything else would create some plotholes.
If ships see each other in subspace naively, the Ancient's data would have been pointless.
See, I always took the "tracking" term to be far more literal, i.e. having the ability to find out where a ship is now and where it's going to. Even without the subspace synchronization issue, that would make the Ancient data invaluable. It's no good knowing that the Lucifer could be destroyed in a subspace tunnel if one has no idea where it is at the present time, or what series of jumps it'll be using to get to Sol. The Terran and Vasudan fleets were completely backed against the wall by the end of the campaign; they presumably didn't have the resources to institute any sort of meaningful blockade around the node (or nodes, as the case may be) to Earth. There was also the devilish issue of the Lucifer's history of using unstable and/or completely unknown nodes to jump between systems. Notice that it was only after the Ancient technology was discovered that Command learned that the Lucifer was heading to Sol via Sirus and Delta Serpentis, which gave them the opportunity they needed to put the Bastion in position to execute a last-ditch strike against it.
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Hmm, makes a lot of sense actually.
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But fails to account for the observed use of it in FS2, which suggests tracking is only possible if the ship was observed to jump.
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See, I always took the "tracking" term to be far more literal, i.e. having the ability to find out where a ship is now and where it's going to. Even without the subspace synchronization issue, that would make the Ancient data invaluable. It's no good knowing that the Lucifer could be destroyed in a subspace tunnel if one has no idea where it is at the present time, or what series of jumps it'll be using to get to Sol. The Terran and Vasudan fleets were completely backed against the wall by the end of the campaign; they presumably didn't have the resources to institute any sort of meaningful blockade around the node (or nodes, as the case may be) to Earth. There was also the devilish issue of the Lucifer's history of using unstable and/or completely unknown nodes to jump between systems. Notice that it was only after the Ancient technology was discovered that Command learned that the Lucifer was heading to Sol via Sirus and Delta Serpentis, which gave them the opportunity they needed to put the Bastion in position to execute a last-ditch strike against it.
Well, I never said anything about it not being able to find out. I'm just saying that without the tracking data they would not be able to get into the same tunnel at all, otherwise the GTA/PVN could have just attacked the Lucifer in subspace BEFORE they had the tracking tech. I remember this being discussed before somewhere and the conclusion was that the only way there isnt; a plothole is if that the GTA/PVN could not get into the same tunnel or something.
With the search function being broken and all not sure if I'll be able to find that thread...
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I created a very elaborate explanation for subspace in my old Starforce mod, which I still use most of today. Keep in mind that this description is intended to come from more than a thousand years after FreeSpace 2, so it references technologies that do not exist in FreeSpace 1 or 2.
In simple terms, subspace is the 'filling' that the space-time membrane of the universe rests on. Imagine an extremely wrinkled and distorted sphere. The interior of this sphere would be subspace, and the outer 'skin' the universe we exist in. The convolutions in space-time and the nature of subspace mean that a few minutes' travel through subspace can cover hundreds if not thousands of light years.
However, one cannot just enter subspace at a whim. The 'thickness' of the space-time membrane makes it impossible to transition into subspace except under certain conditions, and, furthermore, subspace is saturated with a seemingly limitless 'energy soup' that would annihilate any physical objects within subspace (this energy-rich ether is the source of the swirling glow associated with all forms of subspace use). Subspace nodes solve both of these problems.
A subspace node creates a corridor of realspace through subspace, connecting two points in the universe. Naturally-occurring subspace nodes are extremely unstable, collapsing within seconds of their formation. However, the more traffic passes through a subspace node, the more stable and permanent it becomes. A well-maintained node can exist indefinitely.
There are estimated to be several million permanent or semi-permanent subspace nodes linking star systems in the Milky Way galaxy. Of these, over 1.5 million have been charted. The origin of the vast majority of these long-lasting nodes is unknown, and historical record indicates they have been in use by other civilizations for millennia before humans developed spaceflight. Theories that the ancient, long-vanished Shivan race created these nodes has been mostly discredited--the Shivans could not have had an empire of millions of systems, even before their war with the Zica, and, at any rate, the Shivans sterilized every planet they ever inhabited to wipe out all Zica presence in this galaxy, and the number and distribution of devastated worlds does not support such theories.
Subspace nodes can be artificially generated with the correct calculations, a large amount of energy, and a subspace drive. Most spacecraft can only create very short nodes, usually no more than 10 light-years, on their own, but larger starships can travel hundreds or even thousands of light-years without a pre-existing subspace node. Most artificial nodes have a lifespan of an hour or less. Passing additional ships through them can prolong their existence.
Dedicated subspace portals, while expensive and energy-intensive, are a more permanent solution for the creation of subspace nodes. Each portal is composed of multiple counter-rotating components that together create powerful subspace distortions. The first portal discovered by human beings was encountered in 2367, and named Knossos. After the Second Great War, humanity began building their own portals based on the design of Knossos, the first reconnecting Delta Serpentis to Sol in 2391. Portals that are used enough can create permanent subspace nodes, such as the Delta Serpentis-Sol node, which continues to exist long after the portal was dismantled.
The most advanced known use of subspace for technology is subspace rifts. This extremely dangerous form technology involves opening a hole in realspace that, instead of tunneling a node through subspace, opens directly into subspace itself, releasing minute qualities of the extremely energetic ether. The energy density of this ether is greater than even the most advanced antimatter applications. By carefully controlling the subspace rift and the release of ether, one can use it for power generation, or the technology can be used as a weapon--for instance, a bomb that tears open subspace, annihilating any nearby matter, or the subspace rift effect used by the Shivan Sathanas fleet in 2367 to destroy the star Capella and its entire solar system (widely believed at the time to be a supernova, it was actually a massive eruption of energy from subspace itself whose expanding blast front atomized the star and hurled its remains into space). The problem with this is that even the smallest lapse of control can cause a benign energy generator to become a bomb of colossal proportions. However, subspace power generation has one incredible advantage--as it taps the infinite, self-replicating energy ether of subspace, drawing power from beyond our own universe, it is not bound by the law of conservation of energy, which means that we could draw power from subspace literally forever. Untold billions of years hence, if there are any human beings left in the universe, subspace rift technology will be their lifeline, allowing humanity to flourish indefinitely even as the cosmos cools and dies around them.
The intrasystem jumps in FS1 and FS2 I imagine as being ships creating their own nodes to hop a few hundred million miles through space. It would be effectively useless as a method for interstellar transportation because (a) trajectory calculations lose precision with increasing distance from large gravity wells which serve as "landmarks" to orient realspace to subspace, and (b) attempting to form a node more than a couple of times would rapidly deplete a ship's fuel supply.
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Found that thread:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,61302.0.html
EDIT: ehh...might not have been that one after all...that was just me...
Ok, so as long as you can't engage the Lucifer properly without tracking then there isn't a problem. Otherwise, the Altair thing would be completely unnecessary, Vasuda Prime could have been saved, etc...
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I always imagined that subspace tracking had two purposes, (a) to catch up with enemy ships more than one jump away by figuring out what route they're taking, and (b) figuring out where a ship that made an intrasystem jump is going. Without subspace tracking, the Bastion would have no idea what route the Lucifer was taking to get to Sol, and thus they wouldn't be able to catch the Lucifer with the extremely narrow window of opportunity (<10 minutes) required to destroy her in subspace. Remember, it's not about just jumping to Delta Serpentis, it's about jumping into Delta Serpentis right on top of the Lucifer just as she is about to enter the Delta Serpentis-Sol node. And you can't wait by the node for the Lucifer to arrive either because she is invincible in realspace and if you set an ambush she will have all the time in the world to tear you a new fighterbay and then enter the node. The Bastion had to know the exact time and place of each jump the Lucifer made and the destination.
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Well, I never said anything about it not being able to find out. I'm just saying that without the tracking data they would not be able to get into the same tunnel at all, otherwise the GTA/PVN could have just attacked the Lucifer in subspace BEFORE they had the tracking tech. I remember this being discussed before somewhere and the conclusion was that the only way there isnt; a plothole is if that the GTA/PVN could not get into the same tunnel or something.
Remember that, even though the GTA had no idea that Shivan shields, particularly those of the Lucifer, were non-functional in subspace, they were perfectly aware that their own ships' shields were. As such, any engagement against Shivan forces in a subspace corridor would be seen as suicidal at best. Simply put, the GTA/PVN never tried to attack the Lucifer before obtaining tracking technology because they saw no reward, yet a massive amount of risk, in doing so. Also keep in mind that, before the Ursa/Harbinger combination, nothing in the GTA arsenal was powerful enough to bring down a ship of the Lucifer's magnitude.
And that addition about a node ambush is a good point, Woolie. Even if the GTA or PVN could commit ships to any sort of a blockade, they'd have no inclination to do so, since the Lucifer could utterly annihilate them without suffering so much as a scratch before proceeding to jump unimpeded.
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Their own shield technology is at the very least partially Shivan.
There is gain in any engagement against Shivan forces in a subspace corridor. Shivan fighter hulls are very weak, and I would definitely be willing to risk a fighter wing or two just to find out if I can press that advantage, or if it exists at all. Information on your enemy is important, I don't see why the GTA/PVN wouldn't have tried, especially when trying to hold the Lucifer off Vasuda Prime.
If everything goes into the same tunnel, they could have just sent some fighters after the Lucifer there, or even some from the other end.
And that addition about a node ambush is a good point, Woolie. Even if the GTA or PVN could commit ships to any sort of a blockade, they'd have no inclination to do so, since the Lucifer could utterly annihilate them without suffering so much as a scratch before proceeding to jump unimpeded.
The Lucifer could have done that, but it was shown that it did not when proceeding to Sol.
It could have turned around, vaporized the Bastion, Alpha wing, and the entire pursuit force before heading off, but it just went straight for Sol without giving a second thought. The Lucifer had ample opportunity - it could even have ambushed the Bastion instead of the SD Tanatlus. It would have been ALL OVER then.
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Shivans are not known for their caution. They were probably absolutely sure that the Tantalus could deal with the Bastion herself, as a Demon is a far more powerful vessel than an Orion. By the time the Bastion had engaged the Lucifer they had probably already made final jump preprarations and it was too late to turn back.
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Or they may have thought that the GTA/PVN didn't know how to stop them at all and were just acting out of desperation...(following the Lucifer that is).
I just realized how impossible it is to actually come to any conclusion :/
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I always imagined that subspace tracking had two purposes, (a) to catch up with enemy ships more than one jump away by figuring out what route they're taking, and (b) figuring out where a ship that made an intrasystem jump is going.
Which again doesn't jibe with evidence on how it works from FS2, which suggests you must observe the ship to jump to track it. More to the point, shadowing the Lucifer in that manner ought to be terribly simple; set a couple Valkyries to stare at a node from a few hundred klicks out. They can still track at that range, and engaging them is pointless if they just evade. Confirming the Lucifier's route would have been child's play. The only danger existed from it using nodes the GTA/PVN were not aware of. Once it was confirmed to be moving towards Delta Serpentis then the intercept point was painfully obvious; the only real risk was the possiblity that the Lucifier would use a node somewhere before Delta Serpentis that linked to Sol.
Remember that, even though the GTA had no idea that Shivan shields, particularly those of the Lucifer, were non-functional in subspace, they were perfectly aware that their own ships' shields were.
Or not. Recall that only fightercraft are shielded; it is not until much later in the game they are a capable of performing an intersystem jump, and the near-instantanous jumps of fightercraft in intrasystem journeys it's doubtful that anyone noticed. Given that fighters always arrive with full shielding, it may not have been realized that shields collapse in subspace until around either the triple-node-convoy system, or even up until the Galatea sent her wings to escort the Omega transports.
In fact, given that the GTA's shield gear was amostly certainly heavily Shivan derived, they would have been fools not to assume Shivan shields did not work in subspace.
As such, any engagement against Shivan forces in a subspace corridor would be seen as suicidal at best.
Since they really ought to know Shivan designs don't work in subspace, the situation is actually quite the opposite. The GTA/PVN are fielding fighter lineups that were designed specifically to survive in a shieldless environment, and the Shivans are not. The tech room repeatedly notes that Shivan craft have relatively weak hulls and small secondary-weapon bays in comparison. Secondaries are murderous in a shieldless environment and GTA craft are better-built.
Even before the advent of shields, for that matter, GTA/PVN fightercraft proved able to successfully engage Shivan fighters. You spent a whole convoy mission doing that across a good fifteen klicks.
They should have been attempting subspace engagements from as soon as they comprehended how shields work. The fact they did not, and in fact considered them impossible, is telling. Even if your assumptions are correct, certain critical operations like the capture of the Taranis would be worth the risk. Yet, if the Taranis jumped, it was considered gone and unpursueable.
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I always imagined that subspace tracking had two purposes, (a) to catch up with enemy ships more than one jump away by figuring out what route they're taking, and (b) figuring out where a ship that made an intrasystem jump is going.
Which again doesn't jibe with evidence on how it works from FS2, which suggests you must observe the ship to jump to track it. More to the point, shadowing the Lucifer in that manner ought to be terribly simple; set a couple Valkyries to stare at a node from a few hundred klicks out. They can still track at that range, and engaging them is pointless if they just evade. Confirming the Lucifier's route would have been child's play. The only danger existed from it using nodes the GTA/PVN were not aware of. Once it was confirmed to be moving towards Delta Serpentis then the intercept point was painfully obvious; the only real risk was the possiblity that the Lucifier would use a node somewhere before Delta Serpentis that linked to Sol.
The problem is if you send scout Valkyries out, then the Shivans know you are watching them and will do everything in their power to make sure you stop watching them. If the Shivans caught scouts they would likely have jumped away and come back later, leaving you with no idea when they made the jump or whether or not they took a different node entirely. Using subspace tracking you can observe every single jump they make, by intersystem node or otherwise (the "otherwise" is especially important), allowing you to plot out their route.
In fact, given that the GTA's shield gear was amostly certainly heavily Shivan derived, they would have been fools not to assume Shivan shields did not work in subspace.
No. What is foolish is to expect that their highly advanced shield systems are subject to the same limitations as your far more primitive shields. The fact that they were after all was good for the GTA and a very fortuitous occasion when it was discovered, but it would not have been expected.
Even before the advent of shields, for that matter, GTA/PVN fightercraft proved able to successfully engage Shivan fighters. You spent a whole convoy mission doing that across a good fifteen klicks.
They were able to engage Shivan fighters, but only at a significant disadvantage. Were all the combatants given human-equivalent intelligence, the GTA would have probably lost two fighters for every Shivan fighter shot down and expended a large number of men and machines to save that convoy (and thus we should treat that as the actual case because magical godlike superpilots with built-in character shields do not exist in reality).
They should have been attempting subspace engagements from as soon as they comprehended how shields work. The fact they did not, and in fact considered them impossible, is telling. Even if your assumptions are correct, certain critical operations like the capture of the Taranis would be worth the risk. Yet, if the Taranis jumped, it was considered gone and unpursueable.
Considering the above point that only an idiot assumes that a race centuries in advance of your technology has the same limitations as your vastly inferior knockoff of their technology merged with primitive energy shielding technologies of your own design, they probably did not want to throw away the lives and craft of their (by this point rapidly dwindling) pilots on chasing a cruiser surrounded by what they could only assume were fully functional Shivan fighters that would have ripped the GTA fighters to pieces.
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GTA/PVN shields are vastly inferior to Shivan ones?
It doesn't seem that way. They don't differ too much in strength.
Yes, Shivan shields are superior, but from pure specs, they aren't that much than GTA/PVN ones that they would appear to be using an entirely different principle.
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I seem to recall points-wise that GTA ships are, on average, better shielded than their Shivan equivalents, but they more than make up the gap with armour (or possibly recharge speed).
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Uh, yes they do. FS1 Terran shields were around half the strength of Shivan equivalents. And though they do have more armor, compare, say, the Ulysses to the Dragon and there's still a disparity. And it only got bigger when later fighters and bombers like the Herc and Medusa started cutting back on armor.
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Ahhh.. I spent more time in the FS2 tables, so I may have got confused :)
That's makes perfect sense for Freespace 1, since we'd literally only just stolen the tech from the Shivans' and were actually quite surprised when it worked, so it was a very under-developed tech at the time.
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And that is because they're using it on craft that were never designed to have shields in the first place!
You can't expect something that has an extra system it was never designed to operate to run anywhere near as efficiently as something designed to run it if both are using the same tech.
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And that is because they're using it on craft that were never designed to have shields in the first place!
Only for a while. The Herc is pretty flimsy without shields, barely tougher than an Apollo.
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And the Hercs shields are around 2/3rds that of its Shivan equivalent, the Basilisk. Not half.
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Well, when it came to armor, the Shivans always were ridiculously ahead of the GTA and Vasudan ships, just look at the Moloch and compare the hitpoints with the Deimos in Freespace 2 for an example with capships.
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They have the same amount... 80000...
The Demon in FS1 has the same armor as the Orion in FS1 (100000)...what are you getting at?
The Lucifer has the same armor as the FS1 Hades.
The Sathanas has the same armor as the Colossus.
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I thought the Deimos had about half of that?
Looks like we're all mentally under-remembering values tonight :nervous:
I seem to recall that Shivan vessels had insane amount of armor compared to Terran ones, I wonder where I got that idea from? Maybe I just spent too much time looking at the Lucifer...
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Um, well you could make that comparison with the Lilith and <insert GTVA cruiser here>, but Liliths are Liliths, and are pretty much the exception.
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Liliths are Scary, mostly because if you don't check and make sure it's not a Cain, they can give you a plasma enema very rapidly.
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And the Hercs shields are around 2/3rds that of its Shivan equivalent, the Basilisk. Not half.
If the FreeSpace AI wasn't a pack of drooling morons and the Shivan lasers artificially nerfed to give Alpha 1 an advantage, the Basilisk would still be the superior ship. It is down two gun mounts, but has a slightly smaller target profile, is faster, and has a better turning rate. They might be easy to fly against in FS1, but the NTF Hercs with Prom Rs in FS2 are considerably easier still, even when you're flying the barely airworthy POS known as the GTF Myrmidon.
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Play on Insane!
The Freespace AI is fine. It's just the damage reduction and limits on number of hostiles attacking at once that the player gets that makes it feel like they're mentally handicapped.
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Well, I was concentrating on the Basilisk in particular, which has a reputation for being an utterly pathetic fighter that it does not deserve.
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That's the Aeshma.
Which coincidentally is worse than the Basilisk in (almost) every area.
(And the Myrmidon isn't really that bad...though it owes most of what good it is to a tabling mistake by :v: letting it carry Helios)
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I just hate the Myrmidon. Really, really hate it. I'd rather fly an Apollo than a Myrmidon. At least the Apollo doesn't have a humongous cross-section regardless of angle and it can actually turn (the Myrmidon's turning rate is about the same as a Herc I's, if I remember correctly).
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I can't see why the Myrmidon is so bad. Sure it can't carry the Harpoon, but with 3 primary banks, it can still deal out considerable damage without having to rearm. It also has slightly higher-than-average shielding and hitpoints for FS2-era space superiority fighters based on FRED.
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I like the Myrmidon just fine. Like you said, no harpoons is a bit of a bummer, but a little tbl editing would fix it real quick. :drevil:
the Myrmidon's turning rate is about the same as a Herc I's, if I remember correctly.
I know the Herc's can turn fast at all, but they can hold quite a few missiles if my memory serves correctly. Anything that can fly, and isn't a heavy bomber, I'm fine with. :)
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I dare say you digress.
This is a topic about subspace.