[Aardwolf]

Introduction:

I've decided I'm not going to ask how people theorize subspace works, and start making up how it works. Mainly, I'm focusing on the requirements for and limitations of subspace travel. This explanation is meant to be compatible with the way it canonically works, but I'm taking a few liberties in order to explain some things. Why they can never get the jump coordinates right, or maybe why they don't just jump a meson bomb into the sath's interior, etc.

Disclaimer: except for the canon stuff I'm making up this non-canon stuff to explain, this stuff is non-canon stuff, and should not be treated as canon-stuff. It's just for fun. If you think this non-canon stuff is plausible enough to fit into the canon stuff and you'd like to use some of it as a basis for your own non-canon stuff, you are welcome to use this non-canon stuff and the canon stuff this non-canon stuff was based on to do so, but you must not discuss this non-canon stuff as though it is canon stuff.



The Explanation Proper:

For a ship to jump, the jump drive hardware can't be destroyed or badly damaged. The ship's navigation computer must determine how to get to the ship's destination before it will allow a jump. When the jump drive is successfully activated, a "rift" into subspace opens, and the ship is able to enter subspace through it. The ship then travels through subspace, approaching the point of exit.

While in subspace, the ship is effectively in a universe unconnected to our own, and unless its entry into subspace is done nearly identically to the entry of another ship not too long before (as the Bastion's fighter and bomber wings did when entering subspace behind the Lucifer), in a universe effectively unconnected to any other ships in subspace. So in general, when a ship enters subspace, it has no chance of encountering another ship there. Communication between ships in normal space and ships in subspace (as was done in the Delta Serpentis-Sol battle) is only possible under the same conditions needed to track a ship and enter subspace with it. So before the Terrans got the technology needed to track a ship into subspace, it would have been impossible for a ship in subspace to communicate with command. Even with this technology, it is still quite difficult to communicate with ships during intra-system jumps, more so than for inter-system jumpsHm... this kinda renders a big chunk of Derelict's plot impossible

The point of exit for an intra-system jump is determined by two sets of factors:

First are the factors which are determined by the state of the jump drive when it is activated, determined by the data sent to the jump drive by the navigation computer prior to the jump.

Second are the conditions in the actual area the first set of factors would have defined as the ship nears arrival there. The main thing affecting the point of exit (aside from the point determined by the navigation computer) is how much mass is in the immediate area around the destination. The ship will exit through a sort of point of least resistance. More mass in an area generally corresponds to more resistance to the ship exiting at that point. This effect is strong enough to make jumping into an atmosphere difficult. Of course, then, the idea of intra-system jumping a meson bomb to the inside of an enemy warship, though it might seem clever, is impossible.

Bleh

While writing this I kept vascillating between making up techno-babble and not wanting to write anything that wasn't absolutely necessary to explain stuff.

Anyway, I don't feel like trying any more. If anybody else wants to theorize, go ahead. Here's a nice place.

[Snail]

I agree with everything you said thar.

[darkdaej]

While your disclaimer does mention this is not canon, you do mention you base yourself on canon to write this, but there are errors.

The Explanation Proper:

For a ship to jump, the jump drive hardware can't be destroyed or badly damaged. The ship's navigation computer must determine how to get to the ship's destination before it will allow a jump.

While this makes sense, apparently the state of the navigation computer does not affect the jump drive, as one can easily return to base with his navigation subsystem destroyed.  One could theorize this can be accomplished as the ship's main computer would hold the coordinates of the ship the fighter is stationned on and thus could still "return home" with his Nav subsystem destroyed.  This can also explain how one can still jump to another location that is not "home" because Command can update the information contained in the fighter's on-board computer without any comm subsystem involvement (see objectives display)

While in subspace, the ship is effectively in a universe unconnected to our own, and unless its entry into subspace is done nearly identically to the entry of another ship not too long before (as the Bastion's fighter and bomber wings did when entering subspace behind the Lucifer), in a universe effectively unconnected to any other ships in subspace. So in general, when a ship enters subspace, it has no chance of encountering another ship there. Communication between ships in normal space and ships in subspace (as was done in the Delta Serpentis-Sol battle) is only possible under the same conditions needed to track a ship and enter subspace with it. So before the Terrans got the technology needed to track a ship into subspace, it would have been impossible for a ship in subspace to communicate with command. Even with this technology, it is still quite difficult to communicate with ships during intra-system jumps, more so than for inter-system jumpsHm... this kinda renders a big chunk of Derelict's plot impossible

Again, it makes sense because "tracking" the lucifer through subspace, if the nodes were simply conduits, would have been easy as you'd only need to stick ships in all your subspace conduits to detect a ship incoming.  The fact that it opens a rift and that another craft opening a rift through the same node would never see each other unless they were effectively tracking and following each other makes a lot of sense.  A subspace node is not a worm hole which has been shown to be a simple conduit between two points in space but are massively unstable (ref: ST:DS9)

Unless i forget a specific mission, this theory wouldn't render a big chunk of Derelict impossible.  Derelict has missions early on where you get updates, but they could have simply been pre-programmed messages by Tau Sigma Station.  Unless I forget, as I said, I do not believe there are other missions in derelict that open on a mission update screen which represent an intra-system communication.  Also the only canon reference of communication between ships out and in subspace is in FS1(Good Luck) except some references in FS2 that a ship was coming out of subspace soon (thus most likely having reported to command they are approching coordinates) 

By the way, where do you get this theory that intra-system jumps would make communication harder than inter-system jumps?

The point of exit for an intra-system jump is determined by two sets of factors:

First are the factors which are determined by the state of the jump drive when it is activated, determined by the data sent to the jump drive by the navigation computer prior to the jump.

Second are the conditions in the actual area the first set of factors would have defined as the ship nears arrival there. The main thing affecting the point of exit (aside from the point determined by the navigation computer) is how much mass is in the immediate area around the destination. The ship will exit through a sort of point of least resistance. More mass in an area generally corresponds to more resistance to the ship exiting at that point. This effect is strong enough to make jumping into an atmosphere difficult. Of course, then, the idea of intra-system jumping a meson bomb to the inside of an enemy warship, though it might seem clever, is impossible.

Your first point makes absolute sense, but again, there has to be a backup somewhere as the nav computer does not seem required in subspace jumps.

jumping a meson bomb into a sath wouldn't work according to the mass=resistance theory, but what about commercial lanes?  If there is a lot of travel in a precise area, there is more mass, and thus you would actually have jump issues...not very practical for trading ships.  While we do not really see any civvy operations, we can assume that there ARE civilian space stations designed for trade, that there are trading lanes and that those ships have rallying points, which means your mass=resistance theory does not consistently work.  Some other force must be at work as well as a mass/resistance ratio.


Anyone wants to add to this?

[Mobius]

I believe there was a discussion about that some time ago. Something about a bomb burrowing into a ship and opening a subspace portal, sucking the hapless vessel into itself.

That would be cool.

Nothing happens when we fly through a subspace vortex generated for another ship to pass through. Also, judging from the tech description, I have the impression that each vortex is supposed to work for the ship that generated it, only. I might be wrong, though.

[Kolgena]

Wow. I didn't actually know that you could jump home without your NAV. I always repaired it before trying.

Anyways, I agree with most of the above, and would add:

1. Subspace seems heavily affected by gravity. Because gravity bends spacetime, it also stretches the connections between real space and subspace, meaning that conduits between the two would be more unstable than than would be safe. Perhaps this is why ships can't jump in or out within a certain distance of masses moon-sized and above safely, but aren't restricted to jumping if in a pinch. Planetary or stellar gravity could probably even be strong enough to tear a subspace corridor in half and stick the torn end into a point in real space, effectively pulling whatever was in it out into real space before its destination.

2. Subspace seems to be node-dependent for inter-system jumps. Logically, it may also be node-dependent for intra-system jumps. I'm thinking that doing a jump is kind of like using the Subtle Knife from His Dark Materials, where tiny points in space are exploitable as entrances into subspace. These points can connect between any two points in the universe, do not have mass or dimensions, and function as the rivets between subspace and real space. Due to some other reason that I'm also making up, these linkages are more stable and more numerous for short distances, and their stability and occurrence drops off as distance increases, or as more curves in space-time between two points get in the way. This perhaps explains why Terran jumps are always imprecise when doing intrasystem jumps: our jump systems aren't sophisticated enough to use  less stable small nodes, and can only find the lowest-acceptable-stability node closest to the coords you want to go to. Shivans have better computers and drives, hence they have more nodes they can use, and will be able to use conduits less stable and closer towards the desired coords.

3. Enough mass going through or sitting in a subspace portal for long enough will collapse it. Gravitational fields made by the objects interact with real space as well as subspace, effectively pulling the two together, which will bend the corridor and collapse it. This is probably why some nodes let small ships in, but not larger ships.

4. You can enter a node/conduit from any direction because the dimensions of real space and subspace are not interdependent.

5. Subspace corridors exist in the void between alternate universes (for compatibility in campaigns like sync, BP, etc)

6. Destroying your NAV or subspace drive while in subspace won't collapse the portal but may leave you stranded in it until you are repaired. (seems to be the case in most subspace scenarios) The corridor is always there, regardless of what's in it, but getting into and out of it requires calculations and a jump drive.

7. You can't open warp holes in any object with mass because you need space to form a vortex for you, and mass stabilizes space by being in it.

All of the above are figments of my mind. I'm just churning out ideas I've though of or had read before.

[Flipside]

As long as it contains a lot of arrows, Greek letters and one of the strange integral symbols somewhere, It'll do an as explanation for me

[Kolgena]

Nothing happens when we fly through a subspace vortex generated for another ship to pass through. Also, judging from the tech description, I have the impression that each vortex is supposed to work for the ship that generated it, only. I might be wrong, though.

Last cutscene of FS1, you see fighters flying out the Lucifer's warp hole. I'm assuming it's a game engine limitation or balancing thing that prevents you from leaving the game when you didn't mean to.

[Mobius]

The Lucifer's a big ship, and making the jump to another system might not be the same as making an intrasystem jump.

[lostllama]

I believe there was a discussion about that some time ago. Something about a bomb burrowing into a ship and opening a subspace portal, sucking the hapless vessel into itself.

That would be cool.

Reminds me of the similar concept of a warp core implosion thingy that can happen in games of Battlefleet Gothic.

Debris of the Bastion appeared to get sucked into the node once it had been opened and after the Meson bombs exploded, suggesting that separate objects can enter a single subspace portal. In-game, whenever we see ships emerging from a node, they always emerge from their own portals, yet the fighters in the last FS1 mission were all in the same subspace tunnel. It seems that ships have to jump into and out of subspace tunnels, by forming their own entrance and exit portals, respectively. I don't think anything is clear about how exiting subspace node portals works though.

[Droid803]

The Explanation Proper:

For a ship to jump, the jump drive hardware can't be destroyed or badly damaged. The ship's navigation computer must determine how to get to the ship's destination before it will allow a jump.

While this makes sense, apparently the state of the navigation computer does not affect the jump drive, as one can easily return to base with his navigation subsystem destroyed.  One could theorize this can be accomplished as the ship's main computer would hold the coordinates of the ship the fighter is stationned on and thus could still "return home" with his Nav subsystem destroyed.  This can also explain how one can still jump to another location that is not "home" because Command can update the information contained in the fighter's on-board computer without any comm subsystem involvement (see objectives display)

There's an AI Profiles option that only allows jumping if your NAV is above 30%.
If I recall correctly, at one point, it was on by default.

[Snail]

I think that if you've "synchronized" your ship with the subspace (n-dimensional) frequency of another ship which is about to enter subspace (or is still en transit), you can follow it into its own subspace portal, as seen in the Endgame video of FreeSpace 1. Supported by this statement:

In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked.

If your ship isn't synchronized to the right n-dimensional frequency of another ship, then going through the warp hole will be like going through mist or cloud, ie. it has no noticeable effect.

When a jump portal is opened, the ship creating it is sucked in, like the Bastion's debris (apparently the warp drive was still active despite being exploded...)

[Mobius]

A great for Snail...

[Snail]

Requesting merge with  (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,64035.0.html)

[NGTM-1R]

Last cutscene of FS1, you see fighters flying out the Lucifer's warp hole. I'm assuming it's a game engine limitation or balancing thing that prevents you from leaving the game when you didn't mean to.

Or, much more likely, we couldn't see their jump vortexes because of the size of the Lucifer's.

[Droid803]

Well, those fighters were in the same tunnel as the Lucifer.
They entered after, but were "synchronized" to the Lucifer in its journey...so that's how they came out through the same hole.

This goes back to what Snail said about being synchronized with the other ship.

[darkdaej]

Not only that, but I am CERTAIN I read somewhere that initially,  had wanted to make a single subspace vortex per group of emerging craft, such as an entire wing spawning from a single spot, but changed their minds (maybe for performance reasons?)

But yeah, the same conduit is being navigated by both the GTA strike force and the lucy as well.

Oh, and also,

There's an AI Profiles option that only allows jumping if your NAV is above 30%.
If I recall correctly, at one point, it was on by default.

If i recall though, in retail FS2 there were no problems jumping out with NAV taken out.

[azile0]

Not only that, but I am CERTAIN I read somewhere that initially,  had wanted to make a single subspace vortex per group of emerging craft, such as an entire wing spawning from a single spot, but changed their minds (maybe for performance reasons?)

That's in the Reference Bible, for the FS1 intro. Something like, "Several portals opened, and from them, streams of Shivan fighters poured".

[Aardwolf]

Not only that, but I am CERTAIN I read somewhere that initially,   had wanted to make a single subspace vortex per group of emerging craft, such as an entire wing spawning from a single spot, but changed their minds (maybe for performance reasons?)

That's in the Reference Bible, for the FS1 intro. Something like, "Several portals opened, and from them, streams of Shivan fighters poured".

Well, aside from it never happening that way in any canon mission, the FS1 endgame cutscene does make it look possible. I got stuck earlier trying to make up something to describe what it's like to exit subspace. I mean, we got that one look at the Lucifer and the strike team exiting subspace, but it was from the outside, and there was no glimpse of what it looked like as the fighters approached the destination.

The bit about the synchronization I basically said because it looks like the ships are moving rapidly through subspace (in in-subspace missions), even if their speed is zero. I figured, if that's what it looks like going one way, for ships going the other direction, I figured they shouldn't ever meet... I mean, the backgrounds for each would be going opposite directions, and anyway the ships are going faster than light in opposite directions (at least on the real-space side). Also, that was part of what I came up with to work in the need for sub 'tracking' technology.

I think that if you've "synchronized" your ship with the subspace (n-dimensional) frequency of another ship which is about to enter subspace (or is still en transit), you can follow it into its own subspace portal

Well, that's basically what I was trying to say, except I didn't feel like resorting to technobabble. Basically, you've got to match some not-incredibly-obvious and nigh-impossible-to-match-accidentally values the first ship used to enter subspace.

Another of the things I was basing some of this stuff on was the fact that it is possible for command to communicate with you during several missions when there are no allied space stations or warships or whatever in the area. That signaled to me that they'd have to be somehow sending messages through subspace. Also, you can obviously receive messages in subspace (as evident from Command panicking at you over the comm system as you try to stop the Lucifer). To me, it seemed odd that if there were so many different possible routes through a jump node such communication, that these messages could have been simultaneously entering every conceivable path in order to communicate (that is, before the 'tracking' technology came along). So I figured they needed to use the same tracking info for that as for the pursuit-jump. As for communicating with the system on the other side (which I seem to recall was done at least once in one of the games), that might be easier to do, because regardless of which route through subspace the signal goes through, it would still end up in the correct system, and (depending on how the final heading is determined), possibly directed the right way. Of course, they might be using something else for that... maybe even quantum entanglement ... Actually, the fact that the sending of information faster than light using quantum entanglement is effectively sci-fi crap doesn't mean the phenomenon isn't useful for encrypted light-speed communication, and, in a FreeSpace context, possibly into and out of the fictional realm of subspace. But I'm just making stuff up, there.

It seems to me that, because there are so many more options as far as destination, and other stuff, with intra-system jumps it would be very difficult to utilize the sort of tracking that they used to take down the Luci... that, even if the ship could be tracked to its destination, by the time you could get in with it, it would already be at its destination. Also, now that I think about it, it seems like Command probably used the tracking tech to figure figure out that the Belisarius was heading for your convoy in "Surrender, Belisarius!"... but, since such tracking isn't widely available even by the time of FS2 (I seem to recall there being

Maybe the 'tracking' isn't necessary if the ships are friendly and transmit their jump information to each other... that would make that simpler anyway. I hadn't thought of that possibility, however, so I based that bit about it being impossible for ships making intra-system jumps to get messages from command on that...

As for what I said about Derelict, anyone saying it doesn't conflict has obviously forgotten that the Nyarlathotep was encountered drifting in subspace, and that the entire sequence featured ships (and debris) idling in the same subspace corridor for an extended period of time--ages, probably, for the debris.

[Killer Whale]

 

[darkdaej]

As for what I said about Derelict, anyone saying it doesn't conflict has obviously forgotten that the Nyarlathotep was encountered drifting in subspace, and that the entire sequence featured ships (and debris) idling in the same subspace corridor for an extended period of time--ages, probably, for the debris.

Point conceded about the debris; however, the Nyarlathotep was brought out into sync with the ships currently in subspace by the explosion of an AWACS...now this might have been pure mathematical "luck" on that part, but it could be possible given that large explosions cause problems with subspace corridors.

The fact there IS an AWACS vessel also can justify why streams of fighters keep popping in, as those fighters were probably lurking in the corridor, and the AWACS having detected the convoy in subspace (if shivans can be tracked in subspace in 2335, by mere deduction, Terrans/Vasudans certainly can be as well in 2372) simply synchronised their jump drives to warp in their corridor.

But yeah, the debris remains unexplained.  small victory for you there