A big blunder by Command would be "Slaying Ravana".
How does Windmills prove anything about FS1/FS2?Well, IMHO it gives one more understanding of what Command decides at times. Like... err... Well, decisions that may seem strange at mission-theater level, suddenly make sense when you view them at system-wide level, or even just from the position of the one giving the orders... Which is pretty much what Windmills makes you do.
I don't get it, what's so dumb about the Lucifer fighterbay thing?
It seems pretty obvious it was about determining how many fighters/bombers the Lucifer had.
I wonder, was that sexp'd just using a direct distance comparison, and taking advantage of the fact that the fighterbay is dead centered in the model's coordinate space?
Yes, but not when they wanted to deal the destroyer's death blow. I mean, seriously, what kind of blunder resulted in heavy bombers attacking without a fighter escort? That's basic stuff they missed, and you sure as hell needed a fighter escort for that mission on higher difficulties. Well, it's do-able, but it'd be a little easier with a competent escort. And I mean, it's a FRAKKING DESTROYER! It should've turned around and given that Sobek a wake-up call, and on that note, I don't think it sortied any bombers to deal with it either. Really, it's a major ship, and being taken down by a wing of bombers, Serapis fighters, and a lone corvette that was barely trying is shameful at the least.A big blunder by Command would be "Slaying Ravana".
Really? They committed a destroyer, a corvette, at least one (more than one?) other warship, and multiple fighter and bomber wings.
Most of Command's decisions only look stupid (from the pilot's view of the situation) in an Easy to Medium difficulty. Once in Insane, their tactical decisions are surprisingly quite good.
Aside from that, I have to agree that the "Lucifer hangar-bay order" was plain silly.
Yes, but not when they wanted to deal the destroyer's death blow. I mean, seriously, what kind of blunder resulted in heavy bombers attacking without a fighter escort? That's basic stuff they missed, and you sure as hell needed a fighter escort for that mission on higher difficulties. Well, it's do-able, but it'd be a little easier with a competent escort. And I mean, it's a FRAKKING DESTROYER! It should've turned around and given that Sobek a wake-up call, and on that note, I don't think it sortied any bombers to deal with it either. Really, it's a major ship, and being taken down by a wing of bombers, Serapis fighters, and a lone corvette that was barely trying is shameful at the least.A big blunder by Command would be "Slaying Ravana".
Really? They committed a destroyer, a corvette, at least one (more than one?) other warship, and multiple fighter and bomber wings.
If computers were more powerful at the time, I see no reason why it shouldn't have turned into a larger engagement. And when the Ravana realises it's getting its ass handed to it, it should just power up the drives or call in some backup.
They committed a destroyer, a corvette, at least one (more than one?) other warship, and multiple fighter and bomber wings.
Mm, well I don't think the GTVA fully understood what Kappa 3 was trying to say at the time.
Avoid the beam and you won't get hit, pilot!
Apart from entering the Lucifer's fighterbay, this "advice" also makes me question Command's intelligence:He was right, though. :pQuote from: Command, The Great HuntAvoid the beam and you won't get hit, pilot!
Now here's an important lesson. SOC didn't mount a rescue op because they liked me. It's because I had information, and information is what keeps you alive out there.
I thought that order in Playing Judas was a fantastic way of illustrating that, in the grand scheme of things, your individual life wasn't worth squat to the GTA as a whole. Command had an unprecedented chance to get all sorts of data on the Lucifer's systems, and they were going to take advantage of it, whether their pilot came back alive or not.
I thought that order in Playing Judas was a fantastic way of illustrating that, in the grand scheme of things, your individual life wasn't worth squat to the GTA as a whole. Command had an unprecedented chance to get all sorts of data on the Lucifer's systems, and they were going to take advantage of it, whether their pilot came back alive or not.
Exactly. I'd question Command's intelligence if the didn't do that. One one hand you have a single pilots life, on the other the survival of both species against an unkillable enemy.
I thought that order in Playing Judas was a fantastic way of illustrating that, in the grand scheme of things, your individual life wasn't worth squat to the GTA as a whole. Command had an unprecedented chance to get all sorts of data on the Lucifer's systems, and they were going to take advantage of it, whether their pilot came back alive or not.
Exactly. I'd question Command's intelligence if the didn't do that. One one hand you have a single pilots life, on the other the survival of both species against an unkillable enemy.
That such a transmission can be detected?
How else would it be passed, except subspace? Command reacts without light-lag in the mission. The Shivans are the masters of subspace; they could detect it. They can probably accept you are communicating with an outside source infrequently and assume it's Shivan forces already insystem. A continous subspace transmission and other communications are unlikely to be overlooked.
Except that we know full well that the Shivans communicate via quantum pulses whatever the **** they are. Any communication which isn't of that type is going to stand out like a sore thumb.
Furthermore you don't explain what the **** the Shivans thought was going on with the stealth mission in FS2.
We can play the assumption game all day going round and round over who made the biggest one but basically this comes down to a simple fact. Did :v: mean to portray Command as stupid giving that order. No. So either my assumptions or ones similar to them are correct.
Yes, but not when they wanted to deal the destroyer's death blow. I mean, seriously, what kind of blunder resulted in heavy bombers attacking without a fighter escort? That's basic stuff they missed, and you sure as hell needed a fighter escort for that mission on higher difficulties. Well, it's do-able, but it'd be a little easier with a competent escort. And I mean, it's a FRAKKING DESTROYER! It should've turned around and given that Sobek a wake-up call, and on that note, I don't think it sortied any bombers to deal with it either. Really, it's a major ship, and being taken down by a wing of bombers, Serapis fighters, and a lone corvette that was barely trying is shameful at the least.
If computers were more powerful at the time, I see no reason why it shouldn't have turned into a larger engagement. And when the Ravana realises it's getting its ass handed to it, it should just power up the drives or call in some backup.
That's a fair shout, but considering the Lucifer has an invisible wall over it's docking bay, it killed suspension of disbelief for me.
Your complaints are more related to mission design rather than command decisions.I disagree, things like the number of Allied Fighters and Bombers deployed, they are COMMAND DECISIONS. I admit I got a little bit into what should've been mission design/Shivan behaviour.
Your complaints are more related to mission design rather than command decisions.I disagree, things like the number of Allied Fighters and Bombers deployed, they are COMMAND DECISIONS. I admit I got a little bit into what should've been mission design/Shivan behaviour.
this "advice" also makes me question Command's intelligence:The pilot who started up all the dialogue about all of that beam fire did it to himself to get a quick to the point if partially sarcastic response with "don't fly around the beams". It seems to me that sometimes when people ask mundane questions that they may get mundane answers.Quote from: Command, The Great HuntAvoid the beam and you won't get hit, pilot!
It'd be no fun to watch Alpha 2 or 3 do more work then you
It just wouldn't make any sense!
Hey, you're still taking down that giant floating spikey death ship. It's called teamwork. And it's very important, because it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
Command also has a tactical problem with extremes.
It either overly relies on capital ships (any description), or it overly relies on fighters, or it overly relies on bombers.
Perhaps influenced by the way I play the game but from my perspective with very few exclusions over all three :V: campaigns, the GT(V)A rarely has a cohesive and strategically organised tactical plan except on defensive missions where they're forced to commit everything they have.
The only exception to this that I can think of (really, only) is the mission you lose the Colossus.
Strategy is not something devised by pilots, nor should they be able to instigate strategy, tactics, are pilots turf, strategy can react to tactical advantage, disadvantage or stalemate, but it is the admiral/command/etc's responsibility, not the pilots.I know this isn't really relevant to what everyone else is on about, but I strongly disagree. Leadership/Officer suitability is a key factor in modern-day pilot selection for precisely the opposite reason. Pilots need to be able to devise and execute strategies in a constantly changing environment, I'm not talking major fleet movements and where to deploy forces, I'm talking "Okay Alpha, target the fighters, Beta, I want you to draw fire by assaulting the Ravana's flak cannons. Gamma Wing, follow me in, those beam cannons are ours!" If pilots were unable to devise and change strategies in the midst of a dogfight, your entire squadron is going to have its head up its ass when the enemy do something as simple as deploying reinforcements. Fair enough, Command and its Admirals have a job to play, but as soon as the aircraft are deployed, Fighter Controllers/Air Combat Officers working with Squadron Leaders take over responsibility for what happens in real-time.
Strategy is not something devised by pilots, nor should they be able to instigate strategy,And completely missed the point of what he was saying. *Facepalm*tactics, are pilots turf, strategy can react to tactical advantage, disadvantage or stalemate, butit is the admiral/command/etc's responsibility, not the pilots.
He also referred directly to tactics.I agree, maybe not cruisers though, depending on the rank of the CO (Keeping with Navy traditions, they're generally Captains anyway IIRC). I think the cruisers would've been taking orders from Command rather than a Squadron Leader, since Command takes the role of a modern day ACO/Fighter Controller. The Squadron Leader would generally have a bit too much on his plate to plan a proper course of action that would make sense to a Cruiser Skipper.
Bluntly FS is not equipped to handle your having tactical command, though you can rise as high as a squadron commander. You really should been planning your Blue Lions missions in addition to executing them, and you probably should have had authority over anything up to a cruiser on the scene.
I think you have a different mission in mind. Rebel's Bluff wasn't made by Cetanu and is not particularly hard (or good, for that matter).Odd_M03.fs2 - Rebel's Bluff.
What about Feint Parry Riposte where you have to draw off enemy fighters and lure them to your cruiser?
I think you have a different mission in mind. Rebel's Bluff wasn't made by Cetanu and is not particularly hard (or good, for that matter).Odd_M03.fs2 - Rebel's Bluff.
So, not Cetanu in origin, but he worked on it a lot as part of his CP3 management, blurry lines in my memory ;\
We disagree on how good it is, in regards to how hard it is, depends on who you're flying with.
Two reliable players can do it well together even on insane, but lesser players might not be able to do all the objectives even in groups of 5 or 6.
Battuta: Four Herc IIs or Perseus (you can pick), two Medusas, and a Leviathan vs. 12 Hercs and two Fenrises.
On anything lower than Hard I can take out all fourteen enemy craft solo.
Did anyone mention High Noon yet?Which is why this exists: http://freespacemods.net/download.php?view.467
"Colossus, overcharge your beam cannons!"
"But the Sathanas lost its BFREDs already. It's also several kilometers away."
"I don't care! Overcharge your beam cannons!"
"Okay, I'll melt the ship down if you say so."
Did anyone mention High Noon yet?Which is why this exists: http://freespacemods.net/download.php?view.467
"Colossus, overcharge your beam cannons!"
"But the Sathanas lost its BFREDs already. It's also several kilometers away."
"I don't care! Overcharge your beam cannons!"
"Okay, I'll melt the ship down if you say so."
:pimp:
/me Disappears into shadows
Can't click the link, apparently the site has been dubbed "Dangerous"Which link?
Did anyone mention High Noon yet?Which is why this exists: http://freespacemods.net/download.php?view.467
"Colossus, overcharge your beam cannons!"
"But the Sathanas lost its BFREDs already. It's also several kilometers away."
"I don't care! Overcharge your beam cannons!"
"Okay, I'll melt the ship down if you say so."
:pimp:
/me Disappears into shadows
Can't click the link, apparently the site has been dubbed "Dangerous"Which link?
It's Google's reporting service being retarded again I presume.
Which is why this exists: http://freespacemods.net/download.php?view.467
The NTF is composed pretty much of racists and xenophobes. What part of that led you to expect them to be intelligent?
And here's the same response without the personal attack:The NTF is composed pretty much of racists and xenophobes. What part of that led you to expect them to be intelligent?
This is the stupidest comment I've seen so far.
What does being a xenophobe got to do with basic military tactics?
NTF was a military. You'd think they've gotten some basic training.
Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.
Commands sole overriding error was in not getting Snipes to use those "detonators" on the Icenis reactor or ordering a similar accident.
I'd say it was a good decision, they wanted to get their hands on ETAK, doing that would have destroyed it and for what? A slightly quicker end to a war you're going to win anyway? The GTVA hands out the death penalty for acts of treason, the rest of the NTF would continue to put up a fight, albeit a less co-ordinated one.
In the fanon universeThere is no the fanon universe. There may be as many as there are fans.
T-Man, I don't think he wanted to be taken seriously.
Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.
Commands sole overriding error was in not getting Snipes to use those "detonators" on the Icenis reactor or ordering a similar accident.
Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.
QuoteCounterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.
Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.
The Nazis by and large didn't volunteer for a war of extermination against the Jews though.
Remember that the NTF actually defected from the GTVA because they were all suckered in by Bosch's stated dream of Neo-Terra. We're certainly not dealing with the brightest and the best here. Koth attempting to ram the Colossus is another example of this kind of stupidity. Did he honestly think he could hit it hard enough to take the whole thing out? :p
Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.
The Nazis by and large didn't volunteer for a war of extermination against the Jews though.
Remember that the NTF actually defected from the GTVA because they were all suckered in by Bosch's stated dream of Neo-Terra. We're certainly not dealing with the brightest and the best here. Koth attempting to ram the Colossus is another example of this kind of stupidity. Did he honestly think he could hit it hard enough to take the whole thing out? :p
And Koth attempting to ram the Colossus - a real world, where ships don't have hitpoints, having a billon tons slam into you WOULD hurt..very, very much. the collie wouldn't survive.
I agree. If a two kilometre long ship hits the colly in the face. The face should buckle. But this is a game engine issue.
Koth was still a strategic genius. After all he did smash the 6th fleet (although that fleet was likely to be somewhat understrength because so many defected from it).
The Collussus was several times larger, and was pounding the Repulse with its beam cannons.
Similarly though the Colossus is 6km long. It's doubtful that the Repulse would destroy it. Damage it, yes. Destroy it? Don't buy that at all. Seems too much like trying to write off a truck by crashing your car into it.
And Koth attempting to ram the Colossus - a real world, where ships don't have hitpoints, having a billon tons slam into you WOULD hurt..very, very much. the collie wouldn't survive.
The Colossus would survive because of the beam cannons slowing down the Repulse, and the size of the Colossus playing a large factor. Only a portion of the front section would be hit by the smaller Repulse Destroyer. That, and the Repulse would need far more momentum to penetrate the amount of hull. It's a billion tonnes going at maybe 20 m/s hitting a trillion tonne warship moving minimally backwards due to the beam (Third Law).
I'm going to have to disagree with Karajorma here...
I don't think the NTF was a bunch of idiots. Sure, not exactly the brightest out there, but they weren't exactly retards either.
"And the comparison is not really there. As mass and size increase, the frame/armor/plating do less and less to stop the impact."
It makes sense. Take a toothpick. Snap it in half. Then snap the halves in half. Compare how hard it was to snap the toothpick, versus the halves.Makes sense in small scales, but as previously mentioned, ship design.
Who would make a ship 6 km long and not think about a last ditched attempt at ramming into it?
Withstanding 5000 megaton blasts gives it every reason to believe it can withstand an object about five city blocks sized moving at 15m/s relative. :P
My bad. Glanced up and pulled the wrong number. Regardless, the difference in size makes the Orion hitting it negligible.
QuoteThe Colossus would survive because of the beam cannons slowing down the Repulse, and the size of the Colossus playing a large factor. Only a portion of the front section would be hit by the smaller Repulse Destroyer. That, and the Repulse would need far more momentum to penetrate the amount of hull. It's a billion tonnes going at maybe 20 m/s hitting a trillion tonne warship moving minimally backwards due to the beam (Third Law).
Time for a nice, fun lesson in masses and densities. Current ships are not really all that heavy, when you think about it. The modern aircraft carrier displaces what,400,000101,600 (off high) tonnes (source: Wikipedia, ship: Gerald Ford class carrier, scheduled for 2015)? The carrier is slated to be almost exactly 1/3rd of a kilometer long, and 41 m wide (unable to find height. Reasonable estimate: 50 m). An Orion is, what, 2 kilometers long? Call the width 100 m, and height 300?. If both were just big boxes, almost 88 carriers would fit into an Orion, which I actually doubt on the face of it (682,650 m3 for a carrier, 60,000,000 m3 for an Orion?). I need to get actual measurements for an Orion, since it isn't completely a box. Anyway, that equates to about 9.3 million tonnes, not a gigantic number of billions. Using the cutscene on the Colossus, 12 Orions could fit inside its hull. That equates to just under 111.8 million tons. However, that could be off by orders of magnitude due to lack of known average density, internal open spaces, and actual, complete dimensions and volumes.
My bad. Glanced up and pulled the wrong number. Regardless, the difference in size makes the Orion hitting it negligible.
No.
The armor properties don't scale up together with the ship. Neither does the armor thickness scale linearly. And increasing armor thiicknes has diminishing returns after a point.
Do some research into the matter. You have a 2100m long metal box crashing into the Colossuss from the front (it's shape is far less uniform..and that thin neck is a very big weak point).
Best case scenario - the whole front of the Collie is gone, the neck snaps. That's not negligible damage - that massive damage.
I like to point to the difference between background universe full and game performance. Those are not the same for balance reasons.Except this dichotomy exists only in your own mind, as you've been told in the past. For our purposes, the game is the universe. The Colossus was rammed by the remnants of the Repulse, and it suffered only minimal damage. Any speculation to the contrary is just fanon.
Examples of this are many in all types of game. Book/movie and game don't perform the same.
Except this dichotomy exists only in your own mind, as you've been told in the past. For our purposes, the game is the universe. The Colossus was rammed by the remnants of the Repulse, and it suffered only minimal damage. Any speculation to the contrary is just fanon.
With armor and structure that regularly survive multi-megaton hits? I don't know.
That said, IF we are talking about any sort of realism and/or believabiltiy, the repulse would be utterly destroyed in a chrash with a collie. But the collie would suffer heavy damage. Anyone claiming the opposite is out of touch with reality.Well good, because FS had never bothered with such frivolous pretensions as "reality." :p
Armour wouldn't matter as much in a collision situation so much as how it's put togetherThat's definitely true. However, the hull of the Colossus doesn't seem to have particular weaknesses in terms of the damage type. It protect against piercing and cutting damage of beams (which isn't very much like collision damage) just as well as massive blunt impacts from bombs (which is more similar to collision damage). Furthermore, the superstructure within is at least strong enough to easily take the force of the engines pushing the entire ship. It should be a safe assumption that there's some margin there as well (which translates to quite a bit since the Colossus is so stupendously huge).
Take body armour for example. You could have just a flat piece like usual, stopping certain different rounds, but not others
While the better scaled body armour has scales of that tissue that when hit, will distribute and absorb far the impact of the round making it in turn, stronger.
Wouldn't the hull be the same concept?
With armor and structure that regularly survive multi-megaton hits? I don't know.
Forget megatons, the Colossus tanks multi-gigatons of explosive force (meaning the energy transfer is much closer to instantaneous than a collision would be).
Bah. The numbers make as much sense as Star Wars numbers - meaning, not at all.
Universe fluff, the reality of hte universe , and game reality are two different things.
Universe fluff, the reality of hte universe , and game reality are two different things. Allways have been (for any game) and allways will be.I can think of any number of exceptions to this statement right off the top of my head. For instance, would you state that the gameplay of Half-Life 2 and its episodes presented some sort of "alternate game reality" to what actually happened, when Valve's fundamental game design principles for it are founded on the exact opposite being true?
Maddness of the first order. You dismiss the fluff with one hand and seek it with the other.
I can think of any number of exceptions to this statement right off the top of my head. For instance, would you state that the gameplay of Half-Life 2 and its episodes presented some sort of "alternate game reality" to what actually happened, when Valve's fundamental game design principles for it are founded on the exact opposite being true?
I have a buddy who work in shipbuilding. He runs of those stress imulation programs (really neat thing - the model of the ship is put into the program and then one can simulate structural stress due to bad weatehr (waves), runnig shore or even collisions. In his own words - the bigger the ship, the worse it fairs. It's just how it is.And therefore you're missing the white elephant in the room.
Whatevs. How much damage was the Repulse kamikaze set to do in FRED?
@Chrono - you're saying FS2 ships are designed to withstand ship collisions? That's....retarded. No sane military would go about designing ships based on something that's so unlikely.
@Chrono - you're saying FS2 ships are designed to withstand ship collisions? That's....retarded. No sane military would go about designing ships based on something that's so unlikely.
You can hadwave and say the Collie is built out of raw ****offium if you want. Basic logic still stands.
When Trashman says 'basic logic', he means 'stuff I agree with'.
Whatevs. How much damage was the Repulse kamikaze set to do in FRED?
No, I'm saying the Colossus is built to withstand MORE than what a collision can inflict (because the Repulse has to collapse against the Colossus).
That's not retarded at all if the weaponry is that powerful. Now we can say the 5GT figure is complete bull**** but it should be acceptable that the juggernaut ships are meant to easily eat nuclear weaponry when beam weapons are even more powerful. The difference between a gigaton weapon and an ideal collision of the Repulse is over a billion-fold so even a modern multi-megaton weapon outclasses the collision.
"Basic logic" dictates that since the Colossus has to deal with threats of a greater class than collisions and since the Colossus has in fact tanked such greater damage, then the lesser damage a collision represents can be taken by the Colossus.
Ships are not slabs of metal. Ships are mostly hollow internally...you know - to put stuff in. The armor, the bulkheads, the reinforcing structure - it all scales badly.It doesn't need to scale good - weakest link fails.
Do impacts in space even work the same? There is no air resistance and all that jazz.
Like swatting a fly flying in the air. Unless you actually smack it into something, it's not hurt at all and will just continue flying on after being hit.
Only comparison wort examining are two ships chrashing into eachother - and all scenarios oft hat happening are not favorible for either ship.http://www.splashvision.com/Video/13165_Ship-sinks-after-collision.html
Do impacts in space even work the same? There is no air resistance and all that jazz.
Like swatting a fly flying in the air. Unless you actually smack it into something, it's not hurt at all and will just continue flying on after being hit.
The Repulse has a weaker structure than the Collie.
Weakest link breaks. Why do you keep ignoring that?
The video shows that yes, indeed, the weakest link breaks.
And yeah, ships in FS can withstand X hits because that's the table value. didn't a Orion in FS2 intro get pierced (destroyed) by a SINGLE beam from the Lucifer? IIRC, in-game it takes several hits. So, which of the two is the reality of FS universe?We already know the beam for the Lucifer is wrong in FS2 (although even more powerful beams would take multiple hits). However, we also know that they've upgraded the Orions since the first Great War since they have to participate in beam warfare effectively. It's really not that difficult to explain (and frankly should be obvious) unless there's a scene in FS2 demonstrating the same thing.
You seem to forget that a bomb hit, a beam hit and a collisions are completey different in the way they deliver damage.I've noted several times in my posts that they're indeed different but that the impact of the explosives they use would yield even greater impact effects than a collision would.
Secondly, you cannot simply ignore the basics of warship construction. Yes, that friend of mine works mostly on civilain vessels (he did work on a destroyer once..or was it a mine sweeper? Whatever), but the basic are the same.Which is what I said? The Repulse will crumple against the Colossus while the Colossus would sustain damage to the front sector but that wouldn't constitute a show-stopping damage for the Colossus (in the middle of a war, the bulkheads would be sealed off, broken parts cut off, and the Colossus continuing its mission sans front beams).
Ships are not slabs of metal. Ships are mostly hollow internally...you know - to put stuff in. The armor, the bulkheads, the reinforcing structure - it all scales badly.
so yes, in a collision with the Repulse the whole front of the colossus would crumple. There would be nothing left of the Repulse tough. Cause mass keep going and some armor isn't going to stop that amount of mass.
And funny how you ignore my very own example with the kamikaze attacks. I asked a question you still didn't answer.I went all the way back to page 5 (which was before I even posted) and none of your posts even had the word "suicide" or "kamikaze".
Frankly, if I have to choose between beliving you and a YouTube clip that only marginally applies to the situation, and a guy who works on actually designing and simulating large vessels...it's a no brainer.Who doesn't even know the full situation. It's not like you explained to him what these ships were meant to endure, how much larger one ship is compared to the other, how much tougher one ship is compared to the other, how they collided, the velocity they collided at, etc. and then he went and properly thought it through rather than giving the "common sense for modern construction" answer.
Frankly, if I have to choose between beliving you and a YouTube clip that only marginally applies to the situation, and a guy who works on actually designing and simulating large vessels...it's a no brainer.So you know someone who designs kilometers-long, particle-beam-slinging, faster-than-light-capable warships? Awesome.
And funny how you ignore my very own example with the kamikaze attacks. I asked a question you still didn't answer.
Large ships have their own rules of behavior. A ship designer told me both ships will be badly damaged. Why do you ignore that?I don't ignore it, I explain why it's wrong. I even show examples THAT it's wrong (Just look at the second video). You don't try to show that my explanation is wrong - you just ignore it.
Frankly, if I have to choose between beliving you and a YouTube clip that only marginally applies to the situation, and a guy who works on actually designing and simulating large vessels...it's a no brainer.I showed a clip of two ships crashing, were one gets sunk and the other one doesn't get damaged. How is that only marginally applying to your claim that both ships will be badly damaged? Ignoring facts you don't like? Well, you didn't even mention that video, so you didn't read my post? Or did you read it and are you just trying to troll me?
You are not supposed to "believe" me, you are supposed to follow a logical conclusive appliance of universal and fundamental physical laws.
You don't want to? You can't? You found a flaw? Show me!
I can say the same about you. You see, physics is not as simple as that.If my model is in your opinion to simple, show me a more complex and more accurate model that refutes me - that's what I meant with show me. But you don't.
"The weakest link fails" is not the complete answer to anything.
Your claim is equal to claiming that if you know how to calculate thrust for a rocket, you can launch it into space sucesfully...except that a lot more plays into that.My claim is equal to claiming that if I know how to calculate thrust for a rocket, I can tell you if it is possible to launch into space succesfully - if it only manages a maximum acceleration of 9 m/s² I can tell you it won't. Because a lower limit for the acceleration from the surface of earth is 9.81m/s². And I can tell you that the forces the Collie has to endure won't exceed the forces the Orion can withstand. Because you can't transmit a force via a structure that can't withstand that force.
And since we're so on about canonicity I'm still waiting for a logical explanation of the canon happenings.That's a distraction I will ignore.
IF an Orion is rammed by an Aten (1:100 size difference) and it does 30% hull damage...then how much hull damage would you expect if an Orion ramms a Colossuss (1:20 MAx size differnce).
Or we can just point out another flaw in Koth's plan. We've seen ships take quite massive amounts of damage and yet still be fully functional only a few missions later. Even if Koth had crippled the Colossus he'd only have put it out of action for a few days or weeks at most. :pKoth had no other choice as I see it - He could either surrender (bad), attempt to run the blockade (possibly good or bad) or just do something for fun.
Now while that might have fit in perfectly with Bosch's plans it's a pretty stupid idea to do that to fit in with the NTF's objectives for the war.
No one in their right mind EVAR passes up the opportunity to give "RAMMING SPEED" as a command directive. :DI don't think you're in the right mind buddy!
IF an Orion is rammed by an Aten (1:100 size difference) and it does 30% hull damage...then how much hull damage would you expect if an Orion ramms a Colossuss (1:20 MAx size differnce).What you mentioned earlier makes this a poor comparison, that is, scale.
The conservation of momentum only applies if no force is applied.If no outside force is applied. There is no outside force, that's why it's a closed system. => conservation of momentum applies
Also, I don't know about this, but what effect would the recoil have on this? I can't image the collie would be perfectly still in space. Wouldn't a lotMaybe I should have quoted that before.
of the energy be transfered into kinetic backwards force?
What you mentioned earlier makes this a poor comparison, that is, scale.
Actually no. The Aten istelf is like 250meters long. the point is htat internally, tehy are all structured the same..and the thickness of armor and supporting structure doesn't scale with size (cost and effectiveness). Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if and Orion has proportionally better structuring.You're missing the point. I talked about scale because of momentum transfer. The entire post was about that.
But I digress. There's no way the Collie is getting out of with just a scratch on a paint job. It would still be "sea-worthy", but I wouldn't call the damage minimal.
And Koth attempting to ram the Colossus - a real world, where ships don't have hitpoints, having a billon tons slam into you WOULD hurt..very, very much. the collie wouldn't survive.
I thought that the Repulse would just bounce off the Colossus or something, since it was travelling at only 15 m/s.Unlikely. At such huge scales structures are no longer really objects that could bounce as a singular entity. It would take supremely tough materials (even beyond the the posited strength of Colossus' armor and impact structure) or a much lower velocity than 15m/s for such a bounce to occur. It's almost certain at least one of the two would be crushed where I've been arguing that because of the known toughness (as opposed to overall damage it can absorb) of the Colossus, the Repulse is likely to be the only one to be wholly smashed.
The Aten was stuffed with explosives; there's no direct way to compare the damage of collision.
Either way you have the Repulses mass + reactor + all the ordinance and fuel on board + beams to soften up the impact point. That's a lot of bang.Just remember that on the flipside, there's the Colossus firing its beams vaporizing chunks out of the Repulse. The Repulse is destroyed before it gets to the Colossus often times.
Either way you have the Repulses mass + reactor + all the ordinance and fuel on board + beams to soften up the impact point. That's a lot of bang.
And again, in the past, a ship purposely stuffed with explosives (thus far exceeding the Repulse's impromptu explosive potential) didn't do that great of damage either.
Because a fleeing destroyer on the losing end of a war would clearly have a large stock with unused high-end explosives.
I guess that also depends on where the bombs are stored, but still. One could argue that an explosion would push part of the Repulse in front of it only harder, thereby increasing the pressure on the Collie.
Because a fleeing destroyer on the losing end of a war would clearly have a large stock with unused high-end explosives.
That is sarcasm right?? I really hope so.
I wounder if Koth knew about these physics when he ordered his ship to ram the Collie, perhaps he just thought that his ship would do more damage.
I think it was more along the lines of, "Welp, I'm boned anyway, so might as well do something flashy and pseudo-brave as I die." :p
I think it was more along the lines of, "Welp, I'm boned anyway, so might as well do something flashy and pseudo-brave as I die." :p
Which would make sense for a fighter pilot, not a commander of a ship with 10000 people. You don't do a flashy death unless you think it will actually acomplish something.
Even if I send my crew to Hell with you, this monstrosity will be destroyed!
I wonder what would be going through Koths head if he escaped into an escape pod to see his ship fail to destroy the monstrosity
I was thinking a piece of shrapnel
I'm surrounded by assholes!
I wonder what would be going through Koths head if he escaped into an escape pod to see his ship fail to destroy the monstrosity
I wonder what would be going through Koths head if he escaped into an escape pod to see his ship fail to destroy the monstrosity
Oi, we have already made that joke, stop stealing it.
I must be dyslexic
I could have sworn it said "I"
I must be dyslexic
I could have sworn it said "I"
My bad. I have failed thee.
It's my time to run my ship into something