[Kie99]

Commands sole overriding error was in not getting Snipes to use those "detonators" on the Icenis reactor or ordering a similar accident.

I'd say it was a good decision, they wanted to get their hands on ETAK, doing that would have destroyed it and for what?  A slightly quicker end to a war you're going to win anyway?  The GTVA hands out the death penalty for acts of treason, the rest of the NTF would continue to put up a fight, albeit a less co-ordinated one.

[Scotty]

And the meaning of ETAK would NEVER have been discovered.  At least by the end of the Iceni, we knew what it was for.

[NGTM-1R]

I'd say it was a good decision, they wanted to get their hands on ETAK, doing that would have destroyed it and for what?  A slightly quicker end to a war you're going to win anyway?  The GTVA hands out the death penalty for acts of treason, the rest of the NTF would continue to put up a fight, albeit a less co-ordinated one.

There's the minor matter that the game specifically delinates the fact the GTVA recognizes NTF prisoners as "prisoners of war" under BETAC, and they therefore have rights, like the right not to answer questions. This presumably extends to the right not to get killed.

Really, a general amensty for anyone who cannot be connected to war crimes is almost certain in that case, much like it usually is in a successfully concluded civil war. There is no other viable option.

[Goober5000]

In the fanon universe

There is no the fanon universe.  There may be as many as there are fans.

[TrashMan]

T-Man, I don't think he wanted to be taken seriously.

Alas, I fell into the so common internet trap of misunderstanding the tone. And I hate that....text has no tone or facial expressions. We need more smiley usage to compensate. But not even that will help completely....

Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.

Up to a point I guess.. remember the war at two fronts bit? Following Hitler in the first place?

Commands sole overriding error was in not getting Snipes to use those "detonators" on the Icenis reactor or ordering a similar accident.

 

Smuggling explosives into the reacotr room might have bee na tiiiiny more difficult that rigging the fighters.

[karajorma]

Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.

The Nazis by and large didn't volunteer for a war of extermination against the Jews though.

Remember that the NTF actually defected from the GTVA because they were all suckered in by Bosch's stated dream of Neo-Terra. We're certainly not dealing with the brightest and the best here. Koth attempting to ram the Colossus is another example of this kind of stupidity. Did he honestly think he could hit it hard enough to take the whole thing out?

[Akalabeth Angel]

Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.

That's open to interpretation. If you're saying that Germany had a competent war effort that's accurate but assigning the credit to Nazis is wholly inaccurate since a large part of the Germany war machine was not a member of the Nazi party, or at least, not willing members. Were the Hitler Youth intelligent? Or just devoted? Were various SS divisions successful in the war? Probably though I haven't researched it myself. And note that many SS divisions were not participant in war crimes, though a few certainly were.

And who's to say that all NTF were bigots and racists anyway? Were some just people fighting for a better life?

[Dilmah G]

I always thought about how the NTF take-over took place, is it really likely an entire squadron or even a ship would unanimously commit themselves to the cause? Most of me says that probably wasn't the case at least a 1/4 of the time.

[TrashMan]

Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.

The Nazis by and large didn't volunteer for a war of extermination against the Jews though.

Remember that the NTF actually defected from the GTVA because they were all suckered in by Bosch's stated dream of Neo-Terra. We're certainly not dealing with the brightest and the best here. Koth attempting to ram the Colossus is another example of this kind of stupidity. Did he honestly think he could hit it hard enough to take the whole thing out?

The goal of NTF wasn't the extermination of Vasudans. They wanted to re-build hte glory of Terra: a better life, a more powerfull GTA:

And Koth attempting to ram the Colossus - a real world, where ships don't have hitpoints, having a billon tons slam into you WOULD hurt..very, very much. the collie wouldn't survive.

[Kosh]

Counterexample: The Nazis were intelligent.

The Nazis by and large didn't volunteer for a war of extermination against the Jews though.

Remember that the NTF actually defected from the GTVA because they were all suckered in by Bosch's stated dream of Neo-Terra. We're certainly not dealing with the brightest and the best here. Koth attempting to ram the Colossus is another example of this kind of stupidity. Did he honestly think he could hit it hard enough to take the whole thing out?

Koth was still a strategic genius. After all he did smash the 6th fleet (although that fleet was likely to be somewhat understrength because so many defected from it).

And Koth attempting to ram the Colossus - a real world, where ships don't have hitpoints, having a billon tons slam into you WOULD hurt..very, very much. the collie wouldn't survive.

The Collussus was several times larger, and was pounding the Repulse with its beam cannons.

[TrashMan]

Size isn't everything.

A destroyer with a nuclear reactor rams a battleship and the reactor blows. You really think the battleship will only walk away with superficial damage?
It's simple physics at work here.

[Colonol Dekker]

I agree. If a two kilometre long ship hits the colly in the face. The face should buckle. But this is a game engine issue.

[QuantumDelta]

Am I the only one that never sees the orion hit the colly?


Anyway, you're right and wrong, depending on the strength of the super structure if a cap ship collided with the colly at 14m it probably wouldn't do that much damage -.-
If that much mass collided with the colly outta warp though it'd probably be devastating.

[karajorma]

No you aren't QD. The Repulse always dies before it hits for me.

I agree. If a two kilometre long ship hits the colly in the face. The face should buckle. But this is a game engine issue.

Similarly though the Colossus is 6km long. It's doubtful that the Repulse would destroy it. Damage it, yes. Destroy it? Don't buy that at all. Seems too much like trying to write off a truck by crashing your car into it.

Koth was still a strategic genius. After all he did smash the 6th fleet (although that fleet was likely to be somewhat understrength because so many defected from it).

Somehow I don't buy that. How much of that plan was Bosch's? It's pretty obvious that Bosch ordered that attack in order to draw forces away from Capella so that he could make his dash for the portal.

Bear in mind that it's pretty doubtful that Command would have been expecting an attack on EP because it made little sense in terms of what they thought the war was about. Furthermore as you say the 6th was likely understrength too. So it doesn't take much strategic know-how to figure out how to beat them. We don't really know what Koth's losses were so they may have been quite high comparatively.

The Collussus was several times larger, and was pounding the Repulse with its beam cannons.

Exactly. It was rather stupid to attempt to ram the Colossus when you'd probably get cut to ribbons before you even got there. Not to mention the stupidity of falling into what was a fairly obvious trap in the first place (especially given the fact that Koth knew the Colossus existed and was in system at the time).


Last point I'll make is that you should never make the mistake of assuming career military officers must be smart or capable. History is full of examples of military leaders making astounding cock ups. And I can very easily see that kind of officer gravitating to the NTF as they'd be angry with the GTVA for always passing them over in favour of other officers (failing to notice it was their own incompetence that was preventing them from advancing).

Bosch himself describes the NTF as stupid cattle. I find it all too easy to believe he wasn't simply referring to their gullibility when it came to falling for his lies.

[stuart133]

I get the general impression that Bosch is the only one who really knows how to command a navy in the entire NTF. Despite the fact that it is a cover operation, and he probably wasn't paying as much attention to all parts, ETAK and other things to think about, he still managed to cause a bloody 18 month war which the GTVA were hard pressed to end. (They lose a lot of systems before Bosch makes a break for it)
Also, the ramming attempt is just stupid. The Repulse is going very slowly right? And the Collie is also going pretty slowly, so a low impact speed. The reactor will be right in the centre of the ship, so there will be a lot of metal between it and the Collie. Also the Collie is designed to take massive punishment and not be destroyed. At worse all I can see happening is the front end being crumpled, and I read somewhere that it is unlikely that there are any crew there due to the G forces that they would feel when the ship turned.

[Narwhal]

Well, it's not only a question of speed.
Remember your physics lectures : Power = mass*speed²

[Akalabeth Angel]

It's a dramatic story point and not meant to mix with reality.

If you want to talk reality you also have to account for the different hull densities (ie armour) and the fact that the Repulse would be swiss cheesy by the time it hit the colly. If the front of the ship is just some shattered framework that crumples on impact it's not going to cause as much damage as a fully intact ship.

[Blue Lion]

Can we not turn this thread into a physics problem?

[Snail]

I'm going to have to disagree with Karajorma here...

I don't think the NTF was a bunch of idiots. Sure, not exactly the brightest out there, but they weren't exactly retards either. If people feel strongly about something, they'll be willing to die for it. I don't think the NTF defected just because they had a low IQ. And remember, the Terrans had been at war with the Vasudans for 14 years, many lives had been sacrificed. History tells us wounds like that can't really be wounded easily, people don't forget things like that readily.

[TrashMan]

Similarly though the Colossus is 6km long. It's doubtful that the Repulse would destroy it. Damage it, yes. Destroy it? Don't buy that at all. Seems too much like trying to write off a truck by crashing your car into it.

Destroy completely? No. Damage HEAVILY - yes.

And the comparison is not really there. As mass and size increase, the frame/armor/plating do less and less to stop the impact.