- Missions with zero plausibility. Looking at you Derelict, with your ****tonnes of pirates.Not to nitpick, but a lot of those weren't actually real pirates. :p
- Use of Brief7 for regular missions. This is an apocalyptic theme. Don't use it for a regular convoy escort mission.This is a sin! I compleately agree. This track is too epic for regular missions. It was always used before great things that player had to do - Before destroying Ravana, After destruction of colossus, etc, etc
-Annoyingly colorfull backgrounds.Looks like I have to check my Earth Defense mission and de-saturate some backgrounds... :drevil:
It can be fixed using a failing secondary objective, that's all it needs. Although it would be nice to be able to specify debriefing music in FRED.You can, but you have to use notepad. As I recall there are a few lines which allow you to specify Average, Failure and Success music independently. I guess the effect could be achieved by setting all of them to Failure.
As a few people mentioned, a lack of in-mission dialog. At this point, given the amount of time I've spent playing FS2, the amount of pleasure I obtain from the sheer mechanics of blowing up enemy fighters is somewhat limited (unless it's something ridiculous like SGWP2, of course). I'm primarily still interested in FreeSpace because of its immense potential as an in-game storytelling medium, which means that I most enjoy missions that utilize said medium to its utmost. Going out on a bog-standard escort mission with no dialog beyond built-in messages is the best way to completely bore me.This, I cannot stress this point enough
- Formulaic stories. I'm getting sick and tired of the same storyline over and over again.
- Something very grim happens in the mission (e.g. The Colossus is destroyed in Their Finest Hour) the debriefing mourns the loss of thousands upon thousands of lives... and in the background, there's the victory music happily playing. It's put me off ever since I first played the main campaign, and it still does.
It can be fixed using a failing secondary objective, that's all it needs. Although it would be nice to be able to specify debriefing music in FRED.
On the subject of mutiny again, I have one idea of a more plausible scenario - NTF operatives temporarily take over the communications and weapons subsystems and call for support. They could easily sabotage the warp drive, so unless the crew yields, the NTF reinforcements will either kill the crew, replace them, or just destroy the entire ship. Their call.It usually doesn't work like that in most campaigns. In fact, it'd just be even more contrived given how the GTVA gives not half a thought to all the loyal officers onboard, or the fact that the ship could still be used.
Historical precedent suggests you're most likely wrong, unfortunately.huh
Histories of submariners both German and American, being a student of the Pacific and Atlantic Wars. We'll start with "Scratch one flattop!" at Coral Sea and move on from there, if you like?
Angst has no place in mission design. Ever. You're pumped up on adrenaline, you're trying to stay calm, reasonably professional. You've been trained to regard all this as not of much moment because contemplating its significance is likely to kill you and destroy your very expensive fightercraft. You don't want to think about it either, and the human mind is quite capable of self-denial.
Histories of submariners both German and American, being a student of the Pacific and Atlantic Wars. We'll start with "Scratch one flattop!" at Coral Sea and move on from there, if you like?Did I say anything about angst...? If I did, that's not what I meant. What I meant was people completely overdoing their characters and adding horribly written banter. In effect, the mission designer has not created realistic human beings, but cardboard cut-outs masquerading as people. This is not a question of psychological profiles, but of design choices in mission design.
Angst has no place in mission design. Ever. You're pumped up on adrenaline, you're trying to stay calm, reasonably professional. You've been trained to regard all this as not of much moment because contemplating its significance is likely to kill you and destroy your very expensive fightercraft. You don't want to think about it either, and the human mind is quite capable of self-denial.
In particular, i'm looking for things that can be fixed with relatively little effort, but might get overlooked.Most of the things posted on this thread are serious design flaws, and/or problems that would require practice or experience to catch - not minor things that are overlooked. :p
and then Command starts rhyming and acting like a pimpWait, we're not talking about JAD here? Which line was this?
and then Command starts rhyming and acting like a pimpWait, we're not talking about JAD here? Which line was this?
This should be wikified.
Unless you're a character who's been trained from birth to regard the significance of every human life.
"The Perseverance is no more! That's what you flyboys are paid for!"and then Command starts rhyming and acting like a pimpWait, we're not talking about JAD here? Which line was this?
Unless you're a character who's been trained from birth to regard the significance of every human life.
What are you doing in the military then? Especially in a front combat role?
My personal pet peeve - capital ships that keep firing beams even as they're disintegrating, making it look like the beam is coming from empty space. Nowadays, on my own little projects I make sure to stop all beams for larger vessels when they reach 0%.Ooh, that's a good one. It's even more irritating when said beams happen to be targeting the ship you're supposed to be protecting...or even worse, you. :p
Mackie clone
I think people are confusing cold-blooded killers, the people who enjoy blowing up ships full of thousands of people, and the people who are doing their duty and are attempting to mask their fear of death.No, people are confusing badly written cardboard cutouts with real people.
My personal pet peeve - capital ships that keep firing beams even as they're disintegrating, making it look like the beam is coming from empty space. Nowadays, on my own little projects I make sure to stop all beams for larger vessels when they reach 0%.
Not really a code issue. I guess ships are still considered alive until they're completely blown up, so they are still able to fire beams. It's been a problem since retail.My personal pet peeve - capital ships that keep firing beams even as they're disintegrating, making it look like the beam is coming from empty space. Nowadays, on my own little projects I make sure to stop all beams for larger vessels when they reach 0%.
I've seen this, but isn't that a code issue? I mean as soon as the ship is destroyed beams are supposed to stop firing.. or maybe not?, well I'm not sure if it's code or not, sorry if I'm mistaken.
Do you mean Mackie or his clone? Or both?Mackie clone
Ditto. Never liked the character in the first place. I'd like to shove a duct tape down his throat, then maybe he would finally SHUT UP.
Pirates
I can't see combat fighters being operated by anything less than a government. You need a logistical tail to keep fighters going,
Not to mention that I can't imagine pirates ever really risking themselves in open combat against armed military opponents.
I can't see combat fighters being operated by anything less than a government. You need a logistical tail to keep fighters going, and that tail can be tracked and shut down pretty easily. Not to mention that I can't imagine pirates ever really risking themselves in open combat against armed military opponents.
My evidence for this is basically Real Life.
- Promy S on Post-Capella campaigns. Without the Sol system nor the nebula, GTVA can't produce Promy S, it's canonical and explicitly said in FS2 campaign. Dot.
- Promy S on Post-Capella campaigns. Without the Sol system nor the nebula, GTVA can't produce Promy S, it's canonical and explicitly said in FS2 campaign. Dot.
They probably just started harvesting it from somewhere else. Argon isn't exactly rare.
- Escape pods. We nearly never see of those in campaigns. Is it credible for a capital ship battle that all ships get destroyed and none of their crew survive ? Cruiser and above are supposed to have escape pods, and destroyers should have transports and emergency fighters too.
- Flail-like and EMP weapons. They are very rarely used and cleverly building missions around those would be very interesting and original. I thank STR and the Hellfire mission for this one, which made me realize that the disruptor missile actually exists :D. I also remember a mission where you had to push sentries away with a flail without destroying them in order to steal a cargo depot without triggering the alarm, and that was quite clever too.
- Promy S on Post-Capella campaigns. Without the Sol system nor the nebula, GTVA can't produce Promy S, it's canonical and explicitly said in FS2 campaign. Dot.
They probably just started harvesting it from somewhere else. Argon isn't exactly rare.
Yeah I call bull**** on that. They shouldn't have Prometheus-S without the nebula. Unless the campaign explicitly lists a new source of the necessary materials.
Erm, they did have the Prometheus without the nebula, back in FS1.
Argon's everywhere; it's one of the most abundant gases in the universe. I can list you a few sources of the necessary materials right now if, you want.
The original GTW-5 Prometheus S was removed from service when the link to Earth was lost and the GTVA was unable to obtain sufficient quantities of argon (a required element in the Prometheus's power-generation module). Recent deployment of Anuket and Zephyrus gas miners has enabled us to resume production of the GTW-5 Prometheus S. The S-type is a minor variant of the original Prometheus laser cannon. The S-type's faster recharge cycle and lower energy drain cause many pilots to prefer it over the R variant.
You can say whatever you want about the sources but the canon reality in Freespace is that the Prometheus S was not possible without access to the new gas miners or Earth.
The Artemis will be armed with the new Prometheus cannon. Our nebula gas miners have gathered sufficient resources to resume production of the GTW-5 Prometheus S. The S-type is based on the original design of the Prometheus cannon. With high marks for shield and hull damage, the Prometheus was our weapon of choice in the Great War.From : The King's Gambit Command briefing
The Helios is prohibitively expensive to produce, thus its deployment is severely restricted.
Mackie clone
Ditto. Never liked the character in the first place. I'd like to shove a duct tape down his throat, then maybe he would finally SHUT UP.
The Helios is prohibitively expensive to produce, thus its deployment is severely restricted.
It depends how you read it. To me, it says that you won't get it against anything smaller than a destroyer. If it's vital that you take down something, you get the Helios. The Ravana wasn't an immediate threat to the GTVA. It threatened the nebula task force, but that's it. The Kings Gambit starts after the introduction of the GTVA Colossus. I wouldn't consider the dated NTF Orions to be such a great threat to justify the Helios. The Sathanas and the other Shivan destroyer (Beleth, right?) were an imminent threat to the GTVA.
I don't know why people forget that FS is a game that needs to adhere to certain gameplay standards. Whoever wrote the Helios's tech description didn't think there would be fans to discuss this issue more than ten years after FS2's release.
QuoteThe Artemis will be armed with the new Prometheus cannon. Our nebula gas miners have gathered sufficient resources to resume production of the GTW-5 Prometheus S. The S-type is based on the original design of the Prometheus cannon. With high marks for shield and hull damage, the Prometheus was our weapon of choice in the Great War.From : The King's Gambit Command briefing
So it's explicitly said that they gathered the gas in the nebula. Given than they wouldn't be stupid enough to gather gas in a combat zone if they could do it somewhere else, it means that they don't have any sufficient argon source (we're talking canonical here, argon may be abundant in the real universe, it's not what's interesting us here) to produce Promy S in sufficient quantity to supply combat units.
Ditto. Never liked the character in the first place. I'd like to shove a duct tape down his throat, then maybe he would finally SHUT UP.
How can anyone hate Mackie?
So I'll modify your statement:You can say whatever you want about the sources but the canon reality in Freespace is that the Prometheus S was not possible without access to the new gas miners or Earth.
That's all we can say canonically.
; ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
; Prometheus (only available after nebula missions begin)
;
Erm, no, it just says the Prometheus isn't available until after the nebula missions begin.
Which isn't to say they weren't pulling argon from the nebula to make the Prom S; that's by far the most parsimonious explanation given what we're shown. However, nothing here rules out other possible sources so long as they're just considerably less attractive than the nebula.
Erm, no, it just says the Prometheus isn't available until after the nebula missions begin.
Which isn't to say they weren't pulling argon from the nebula to make the Prom S; that's by far the most parsimonious explanation given what we're shown. However, nothing here rules out other possible sources so long as they're just considerably less attractive than the nebula.
If people want to ignore canon or designer intent that's fine just accept the fact you're ignoring it.
Oh and edited my post to add some more pet peeves.
Well, there's nothing in my post quoted there that actually contradicts canon. We have no evidence that the Prometheus S requires access to Earth or the Nebula, merely that they supplied argon for the Prometheus S production process and that the fall of Earth led to a situation whereby argon was unavailable - perhaps due to simple lack of access to argon (your theory), perhaps because they lacked the infrastructure and it only became available about when the nebula did.
I don't particularly favor either theory; I think a campaign could pull either one.
I do agree that ship hull regeneration generally needs a good rationale (though self-repair mechanisms on a warship seem pretty elementary...even a metal ship isn't difficult to heal.)
Given that the FSVerse can apparently regenerate fighter subsystems near-instantaneously, there's at least a good grounding for rapid ship regeneration.
I have a new one.I generally agree with you. I always find it nice to see known ships in a fan-made campaign and I also often used ships in my own campaigns that we already knew from the FS2 main campaign. But when a campaign takes place far away from the systems we visited in FS2, it doesn't make much sense in my eyes to let canon ships show up.
People creating their own destroyer names, (or even worse) creating new destroyers for each mission. Granted, this was a problem in FS2, where a lot of Orions appeared and all with different names.
Keep in mind that every time you give a ship a new name, you are effectively making a new one. There is absolutely no reason why you have to create the GTD xyz when you could just as easily use the Messana, Carthage or Aeneas. This is actually quite immersive I find, and people get attachments to these ships, which makes it much better when you blow them up. What's even better is that if you're setting your campaign before FS2 you can use ships that get destroyed later on like the Delacroix, Psamtik or any NTF destroyer.
Nods to the continuity are always good IMO.
Ooooh double post but another Pet Hate:Yes and no. Having to replay some missions is part of the game, in my eyes; as it belongs to an ego-shooter that you sometimes die and have to reload. But when you have to re-play every second mission it gets annoying, yes.
Missions should be winnable the first time around.
In some missions for example, a ship jumps in and wipes out an Escort ship. The player should not HAVE TO KNOW that it's coming in order to prevent it destroying the allied ship. For example, Blue Planet is fine when the Ravana jumps in during that one mission because the player is given forewarning. But other missions, I forget what campaign but one mission a Deimos jumps in and scrags a cruiser and the first time it did I was miles away. Next time I went to intercept it and I still lost. Took me a few tries even KNOWING it was coming. This should not happen.
Essentially a mission's success should not depend upon the player's advanced or prior knowledge of the mission. This of course doesn't mean that a mission can't be hard, but it should be winnable the first time around. (and not by blind luck)
So if a ship jumps in, threatening to unleash some beam destroying power, either give the player forewarning of its arrival, OR, give the ship a reasonable delay before it can fire.
How can anyone hate Mackie?
Well, Trashman kinda hates Derelict as a whole, if that helps you understand.
Missions should be winnable the first time around.
In some missions for example, a ship jumps in and wipes out an Escort ship. The player should not HAVE TO KNOW that it's coming in order to prevent it destroying the allied ship. For example, Blue Planet is fine when the Ravana jumps in during that one mission because the player is given forewarning. But other missions, I forget what campaign but one mission a Deimos jumps in and scrags a cruiser and the first time it did I was miles away. Next time I went to intercept it and I still lost. Took me a few tries even KNOWING it was coming. This should not happen.
Essentially a mission's success should not depend upon the player's advanced or prior knowledge of the mission. This of course doesn't mean that a mission can't be hard, but it should be winnable the first time around. (and not by blind luck)
So if a ship jumps in, threatening to unleash some beam destroying power, either give the player forewarning of its arrival, OR, give the ship a reasonable delay before it can fire.
Yes and no. Having to replay some missions is part of the game, in my eyes; as it belongs to an ego-shooter that you sometimes die and have to reload. But when you have to re-play every second mission it gets annoying, yes.
Agreed for Primary Objectives. Secondary or bonus objectives - not so much.
Given that there are gas miners heading on over to the Colossus very shortly after the nebula itself is opened ('Into the Maelstrom,' which occurs shortly after the destruction of the Ravana), and that the design was clearly not fabricated in the span between the discovery of the Knossos and 'Into the Maelstrom', I'd say we have canonical evidence that the gas miners were intended to work anywhere but the nebula.You catch me wrong. I didn't mean that the gas miners weren't used before the nebula, I meant that it's them collecting in the nebula that clearly and canonically enabled mass production of the Promy S. There are other gases the miners could collect elsewhere before entering the nebula - I remember it's said somewhere that they're supposed to collect deuterium for reactors. And so a campaign taking place in a post-Capella era should give a good enough explanation of why they still use Promy S.
I'm not saying 'you're wrong, I'm right' - after all, the gas miners gather stuff other than argon, and argon may be only found in the nebula - but as with many things in FS, I think there's plenty of wiggle room.
So, yes, you could argue that argon only comes from the nebula or from Earth. You could also argue that they didn't have effective gas mining equipment online yet, that the miners were deployed directly to the nebula once available because it was a motherlode, and that - with the nebula gone - they will now just send their newly available miners to other sources.
The Lucifer gaining shadow-style organic regenerative abilities.
Derelict did this.
Blue Planet did this.
It's dumb.
It's not Freespace in my opinion, the Shivans have never been demonstrated to have organic ships.
Leave Babylon 5 in the Babylon 5 Mod and stick to Freespace. Shivan ships are inorganic pieces of metal that can be blown apart just like any other ship.
Occam's Razor.That does not remove the problem that Argon is not a rare gas. On top of that it's fairly conceivable that the GTVA could manufacture it from other elements if necessary. It's just a bull**** excuse to not give you as good a weapon early on while keeping the name and appearance.
Prometheus S is introduced as a result of access to the nebula, nothing more. If people want to construct some elaborate work around for their campaign kudos to them, it's better I suppose than simply ignoring the fact all together.
Erm, back on to the topic, is this going on the Wiki?
Tropes are stupid.
As Snail said, only those that are valid concerns could...but drawing the line is...difficult.Yes.
And who's gonna decide which ones are "bigger than individual players?"I didn't say that anyone would. :p Like I said, this may not be suitable for a wiki article, but it doesn't make the comments any less valid.
If you think otherwise that's because you're the subjective problem. I've caught more than a few people doing that.
What we can say is no Prometheus S without argon, but it's not entirely clear what the holdup on the argon was, and to what degree it was an infrastructure problem and to what degree a source problem.
It's not Freespace in my opinion, the Shivans have never been demonstrated to have organic ships.
Here's one of my pet hates:
When in a campaign they transfer your fighter (or your squad) to a Deimos corvette, conveniently leaving out that the Deimos doesn't have a fighterbay.
Out of curiosity, how many dock points does a Deimos have?It has two, one on the left, and one on the right.
i believe at the point of FS alpha cruisers in FS were going to have a small fighter complement and the player was going to be based off the cruiser eventually named the Orff so the Taranis reference could have been a hold over from then
You know come to think of it in FS1 we very seldom encountered any GTA or PVN cruisers. Most of the time if there was a cruiser, it was either HoL or Shivan. I don't remember a single instance where we ever saw a Leviathan, and only during 2 missions did we ever actually see a Fenris.Grep to the rescue!
But in FS1, the fact that you didn't encouncered much capital ships increased the feeling that every one of them meant something.
Grep to the rescue!
These are all the allied cruisers in FS1/ST single player:
Neither did the Borg but they could regenerate their ships hulls. Fact is we don't totally know the full extent of Shivan technology.
In FS1 they didn't show or even hit they could blow up a star.
Dragon, where did you get six from?From the FS2 Shivan ship list.
Canonicly they don't have it and have never hinted at having it.