Author Topic: Pet hates?  (Read 27270 times)

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Offline Snail

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On the subject of mutiny again, I have one idea of a more plausible scenario - NTF operatives temporarily take over the communications and weapons subsystems and call for support. They could easily sabotage the warp drive, so unless the crew yields, the NTF reinforcements will either kill the crew, replace them, or just destroy the entire ship. Their call.
It usually doesn't work like that in most campaigns. In fact, it'd just be even more contrived given how the GTVA gives not half a thought to all the loyal officers onboard, or the fact that the ship could still be used.


Another thing that annoys me is killing large ships (sometimes even destroyers) without any thought, as if it were just another fighter wing (or worse, the pilots act as if it's a game).

10,000 people are dead.

 

Offline shiv

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This should be wikified.
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Offline Snail

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I really hate it when campaigns treat death like fun and games. Honestly. Especially when the player is expected to destroy numerous destroyer-size capital ships across the length of a campaign without any thought to the hundreds of thousands of people he's killing. The destruction of a destroyer is death on a huge scale. It's not something to be treated lightly.

It was bad enough during FS2, particularly during the Raptors bombing missions at the end of the NTF, where the player has to destroy 2 destroyers in the space of 2 missions, and then Command starts rhyming and acting like a pimp as this happens. A lot of campaigns do this, but far worse (especially with ***** character wingmen who are trying to emulate Mackie but failing and completely destroying the atmosphere).

Unlike a lot of these "pet-hates", which I usually accept under some circumstances (for example, if it builds tension), this is one that I utterly cannot stand. Soldiers don't blow up enormous buildings filled with people and joke about it, pilots in FreeSpace shouldn't either.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Historical precedent suggests you're most likely wrong, unfortunately.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline Snail

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Historical precedent suggests you're most likely wrong, unfortunately.
huh


Where did you learn this historical precedent? Endless action movies?

  

Offline NGTM-1R

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Histories of submariners both German and American, being a student of the Pacific and Atlantic Wars. We'll start with "Scratch one flattop!" at Coral Sea and move on from there, if you like?

Angst has no place in mission design. Ever. You're pumped up on adrenaline, you're trying to stay calm, reasonably professional. You've been trained to regard all this as not of much moment because contemplating its significance is likely to kill you and destroy your very expensive fightercraft. You don't want to think about it either, and the human mind is quite capable of self-denial.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 12:34:01 pm by NGTM-1R »
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

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Offline headdie

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I think we are forgetting context here, remember at the start of FS2 we are a year and a half into a bloody civil war with destroyers getting whacked semi-regularly on a backdrop of xenocide on the part of the NTF, large casualty tolls are the norm rather than the exception and the characters will be adjusted to that and numbed to the point where the strategic cost will be more important than the living cost especialy to people more removed from the front such as "Command"
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Offline TacOne

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I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned explicitly:

Enemy ships armed with AAAfs.
There's a reason the AAAh exists!
When I turn the difficulty down I want to die LESS, not more.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Histories of submariners both German and American, being a student of the Pacific and Atlantic Wars. We'll start with "Scratch one flattop!" at Coral Sea and move on from there, if you like?

Angst has no place in mission design. Ever. You're pumped up on adrenaline, you're trying to stay calm, reasonably professional. You've been trained to regard all this as not of much moment because contemplating its significance is likely to kill you and destroy your very expensive fightercraft. You don't want to think about it either, and the human mind is quite capable of self-denial.

Unless you're a character who's been trained from birth to regard the significance of every human life.

 

Offline Narwhal

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I dislike any situation in which a player or wingman could say :
"Hey ! Look ! Yet another destroyer !"

Actually, I like to know what are the approximate strenght of my side and their side, so I don't feel like the FREDer will pop out from his sleezes zillions of enemy capital ships to defeat the brillant plan of Command. That is why I love Intel room.

In too many campaigns in which, if you see a capital ship, you know you will have blowed it up before the end of the mission. In reality, the same ship, even minor, should come back again and again and not be sacrificed just  to use up Alpha 1's shield. FS1 was fairly good at that. . Pirates, especially, are well known in the FS universe for their vast fleets of fighters, even though they  only one Acadia installation, and NTF for having "stolen" at least 130% of the GTVA original capital ship fleet.

Basically, I don't like when the enemy is fighting a battle it has no chance of winning. The other side sending a cruiser on suicide mission just to harass a convoy is a realism-killer. Just avoiding this allows to lower the "total volume" of enemy assets.

 

Offline Snail

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Histories of submariners both German and American, being a student of the Pacific and Atlantic Wars. We'll start with "Scratch one flattop!" at Coral Sea and move on from there, if you like?

Angst has no place in mission design. Ever. You're pumped up on adrenaline, you're trying to stay calm, reasonably professional. You've been trained to regard all this as not of much moment because contemplating its significance is likely to kill you and destroy your very expensive fightercraft. You don't want to think about it either, and the human mind is quite capable of self-denial.
Did I say anything about angst...? If I did, that's not what I meant. What I meant was people completely overdoing their characters and adding horribly written banter. In effect, the mission designer has not created realistic human beings, but cardboard cut-outs masquerading as people. This is not a question of psychological profiles, but of design choices in mission design.

What I really meant was stuff like "Oh LOL the NTF sent in another silly useless destroyer, let's blow her up d00ds this one might be fun lololol" or something in that vein. I actually quite like lines like "Chalk up another one for the killboard!" and such, and in some cases this can add a lot of flavor and punctuates the action with a bit of humor, but it's when characters are so overdone and so badly written that it seems like High School Musical in Space (Now With Lazors).

Reading that post of mine, what I wrote was damned unclear (was writing it while talking on IRC; talking not conducive to writing)... My point is, I think that some people should give more thought to their missions and the dialogue that accompanies the action. This is especially easy a mistake to make given that one can place an entire juggernaut in FRED in the same time it would take to place a fighter (barring render times). I'm a firm believer in 'Zen Missions', that is, doing less with more. Why put in a destroyer when a cruiser or corvette or two would fulfil the exact same purpose? (example, INF R1 where the EA had more destroyers than cruisers. To clarify, 'Zen Missions' does not mean minimalism. To cite another example from INF R1, the huge amount of ships in mission "Nemesis" was necessary for that mission to be awesome)

What I'm actually trying to get at here is that some people have trouble conveying stories and getting their point across, leading to badly written lines of dialogue. These people have little story-telling experience (aside from a few abortive short stories, or a novel WIP perhaps) and can't communicate their characters or the situation clearly enough that they completely and utterly over-emphasize everything everywhere. The mission designer has not made believable characters, he has simply written lines of text (or clips of voice acting). There is a line dividing 'characters' and 'lines' of dialogue.


More experienced FREDders are almost always able to avoid this, it's just some of the newer, inexperienced FREDders/storytellers who often trip up (I am often one of them, which is perhaps one of the reasons why I hate it so much).

In the FREDding Events Editor message box, people are able to type anything to fill the space. What they fill it with is up to them, and it is here that it is really decided if he's created a real person or not.

 

Offline Goober5000

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This thread seems to have turned into a general rant thread, instead of what Black Wolf wanted...

In particular, i'm looking for things that can be fixed with relatively little effort, but might get overlooked.
Most of the things posted on this thread are serious design flaws, and/or problems that would require practice or experience to catch - not minor things that are overlooked. :p


and then Command starts rhyming and acting like a pimp
Wait, we're not talking about JAD here?  Which line was this?

 

Offline eliex

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and then Command starts rhyming and acting like a pimp
Wait, we're not talking about JAD here?  Which line was this?

FS2 main campaign "The King's Gambit". 

 

Offline Black Wolf

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This should be wikified.

Ultimately, this is what I want to do, but I'm still not quite sure how to do it. And Goober's right - we are straying from the original little niggles things in some cases.

Big stuff is important too though... hmm... maybe a wiki entry with two separate categories? Major design and minor design?
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Offline TrashMan

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Unless you're a character who's been trained from birth to regard the significance of every human life.

What are you doing in the military then? Especially in a front combat role?
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Offline TrashMan

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Plot holes. We hates them..yes my precioussss, we hates them!
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Offline Snail

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and then Command starts rhyming and acting like a pimp
Wait, we're not talking about JAD here?  Which line was this?
"The Perseverance is no more! That's what you flyboys are paid for!"

I think some of the :v: guys got bored with the usual "Ship XYZ neutalized good work" and decided to just throw in something funey.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Unless you're a character who's been trained from birth to regard the significance of every human life.

What are you doing in the military then? Especially in a front combat role?

Isn't that the question?

 

Offline Nuclear1

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I think people are confusing cold-blooded killers, the people who enjoy blowing up ships full of thousands of people, and the people who are doing their duty and are attempting to mask their fear of death.
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Offline SF-Junky

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Reading this thread I realized that my Storm Front campaigns include many of the points mentioned here (Mackie clone, story scheme described by Nuclear1...). :nervous:

What I don't like:
- Dozens of waves of the same enemy fighter wing (PI)
- When a campaign just seems to follow the purpose to blow up as many cap ships as possible (Inferno)