Pffft. Bow+arrow is underrated. Against personnel, they're deadly.
I assume that, given that Vasuda Prime was usually only one jump from the battle lines, it was heavily militarized and capable of preventing anyone from getting close enough to drop a few continent-cracking Harbingers on the planet. The Vasudans would have thrown everything in their arsenal at the Lucifer, including the rocks. If it were possible to simply beat down the Lucifer's shields with sustained fire or penetrate them with a sufficently powerful single blast or projectile, I have to believe it would have happened at Vasuda Prime.
It didn't. That leaves beam cannon as the only reasonble recourse.
There is a reason the Lucifer had 5 shield reactors
If I remember correctly the mechanics of the Lucifer shields were never even hinted at
so for example the shields could work by diverting the attack into subspace or another dimension
There is no such thing as invulnerabiltiy. It doesn't exist. It cannot exist.Carbon Nanotubes HUUUURRRRRRR!!!!
Snail.Oh hadn't thought about that.
The beam argument depends on bad peoples opinions of shields being penetrated by beams as a game mechanic :rolleyes:
If I remember correctly the mechanics of the Lucifer shields were never even hinted at
so for example the shields could work by diverting the attack into subspace or another dimension
Precisely. But it still requires (or can transport) only a specific ammount of energy/matter per second.
I think it's a case of "whatever works for your campaign", really.Yup.
If I remember correctly the mechanics of the Lucifer shields were never even hinted at
so for example the shields could work by diverting the attack into subspace or another dimension
Precisely. But it still requires (or can transport) only a specific ammount of energy/matter per second.
Well, we don't actually have any evidence for that.
If I remember correctly the mechanics of the Lucifer shields were never even hinted at
so for example the shields could work by diverting the attack into subspace or another dimension
Precisely. But it still requires (or can transport) only a specific ammount of energy/matter per second.
Well, we don't actually have any evidence for that.
How about common sense? Opening and mantaining a subspace portal costs energy. The bigger the ship, the more energy. Why would it suddenly work different for the shield?
It's the very basics of common sense - there is no such thing as completley invulnerable.
FSRefBible says that the reason shields don't work in subspace is for energy reasons.I always thought it had something to do with field instablility due to bieng inside a subspace tunnel... like subspace energy resonance destablilizing the sheild waves etc
If opening subspace portal and keeping them open is so cheap and easy - why aren't subspace portal always kept open?
The Knossoss opens up only when a ships is going trough. The shivan subspace opening aren't kept open for other ships to pass trough. Each ships creates it's own that closes immediately.
And you still miss the point. What if you throw MORE mass/energy per second than the portal shield is capable of transporting? EVERYTHING in the universe has a limit.
Pffft. Bow+arrow is underrated. Against personnel, they're deadly.Gun > crossbow + blot > bow + arrow
You missing another obvious answer - tehy didn't bring enough guns.
The problem with that opinion was that the Colossus was designed with "engaging ships like the Lucifer" in mind, it was never proven in-game so all that can really be done is say "Well it was made to do it, but we don't know if it actually works."That is a good point, but putting the "Command is stupid" sentiment aside, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here. If they put 20 years and lord knows how much money into the Colossus project, you can bet they were damn sure that it would work when it was finished. :p
They still should be at least affected by beam cannons, as Collosus was expected to be able to destroy Lucifer.There's the keyword though, "Expected." For what we know, if such a situation ever arose, it might not have even worked at all.
rocket propelled chainsaw > gun > crossbow+bolt > bow and arrow XDPffft. Bow+arrow is underrated. Against personnel, they're deadly.Gun > crossbow + blot > bow + arrow
I doubt they would spend 20 years building something if they had doubts if it would even work.They still should be at least affected by beam cannons, as Collosus was expected to be able to destroy Lucifer.There's the keyword though, "Expected." For what we know, if such a situation ever arose, it might not have even worked at all.
I also didn't say they ever doubted it would work, since it was, as said, expected to do what it was built to do. Since it never happend, we the player cannot make a confirmation that it does work.I doubt they would spend 20 years building something if they had doubts if it would even work.They still should be at least affected by beam cannons, as Collosus was expected to be able to destroy Lucifer.There's the keyword though, "Expected." For what we know, if such a situation ever arose, it might not have even worked at all.
Then again...stuff like that does happen.
rocket propelled chainsaw > gun > crossbow+bolt > bow and arrow XD
I also didn't say they ever doubted it would work, since it was, as said, expected to do what it was built to do. Since it never happend, we the player cannot make a confirmation that it does work.
Not to mention that the Lucifer might not have been the only consideration for the GTVA. Sure, "Stopping the Lucifer" would have been what they told people it's purpose was, what they put on all their funding bills and whatnot, but it wasn't neccesarily the only thing they were thinking about. Maybe they never thought the Shivans would return, or that it wouldn't be for hundreds of years - perhaps the Collossus was built as a terror weapon, to control people through fear. Or maybe its purpose was the complete opposite - maybe it was primarily a symbol of the military unity of the Terrans and Vasudans, forcing both species to commit equally to a truly joint project, with a nominal goal of stopping another Lucifer, but an actual goal of simply having a huge project where thousands of Terrans and Vasudans were working together. Or maybe it had a more direct purpose related to unity - whoever controlled the Collossus would have been the dominant species - maybe the idea was to ensure that neither species, and more importantly no small groups from within either species - could ever turn on the other, due to the overwhelming firepower available to the forces of unity.Given how it was initially proposed by Emperor Khonsu II, I think that's actually very reasonable.
rocket propelled chainsaw > gun > crossbow+bolt > bow and arrow XD
We do not know that the shield can be strained by repeated attacks. We have no idea if the number of reactors is a basic requirement to erect it at which point incoming fire places no further demands on it, or what.
I assume that, given that Vasuda Prime was usually only one jump from the battle lines, it was heavily militarized and capable of preventing anyone from getting close enough to drop a few continent-cracking Harbingers on the planet. The Vasudans would have thrown everything in their arsenal at the Lucifer, including the rocks. If it were possible to simply beat down the Lucifer's shields with sustained fire or penetrate them with a sufficently powerful single blast or projectile, I have to believe it would have happened at Vasuda Prime.
It didn't. That leaves beam cannon as the only reasonble recourse.
For all we know, the shields could absorb damage and convert that energy to recharge the shields that way
For all we know, the shields could absorb damage and convert that energy to recharge the shields that way
I think that violates conservation of something.
They created a supernova that expanded faster than the speed of light.Funny, I thought the cutscene renderers did that. :p
Maybe entropy/thermodynamics?
You can't have a perfect system or something...
Well, I always thought Lucy's shields just reload too fast for puny GTVA weapons (pre-beam) to damage it beyond it's regenerating capability.We do not know that the shield can be strained by repeated attacks. We have no idea if the number of reactors is a basic requirement to erect it at which point incoming fire places no further demands on it, or what.I do believe it was the Lucifer fleet that moved on Vasuda Prime. Kinda evens the odds a bit. The Shivans I am sure had a formidable defense around the Lucifer.
I assume that, given that Vasuda Prime was usually only one jump from the battle lines, it was heavily militarized and capable of preventing anyone from getting close enough to drop a few continent-cracking Harbingers on the planet. The Vasudans would have thrown everything in their arsenal at the Lucifer, including the rocks. If it were possible to simply beat down the Lucifer's shields with sustained fire or penetrate them with a sufficently powerful single blast or projectile, I have to believe it would have happened at Vasuda Prime.
It didn't. That leaves beam cannon as the only reasonble recourse.
EDIT: And modern tanks are invulnerable to small arms machine gun fire... not. But they are so tough that the damage from say an M-16 or AK-47 is negligible.
Also, Saths can blow up stars. Lucys can't.
Even though I'd love to believe that the Lucy's shields are invulnerable to beams, I am afraid it can't be.
Why?
The reason is simple: if this ship would've been invulnerable to conventional weaponry AND beams, then the Shivans would've built a huge Lucifer fleet instead of a Sathanas fleet.
Let's assume that (since the Colly is the size of 12 Lucys and a Colly is, for instance, equals a size of a Sathanas) - being really pessimistic - that you can build 8 Lucifers on the "price" of one Sathanas. If so, the Shivans could've had a fleet of 640 invulnerable ships instead of the 80 Sathanii. It is clear that the Shivans would've built the Lucys - but they didn't. Thus it is proven that the Lucy isn't invulnerable to beams.
Note: It IS possible that the Lucy needs some special resources the Shivans lacked at the time. But this is unlikely, considering the probable size of the Shivan empire and the way the canon campaigns go.
Problem with [...] Lucifers is that you force your enemy to attack in subspace, and if the attack's successful, they're sealed off from you.
So you're assuming a Sathanas blowing up in subspace would have no effect?
Anyway 640 lucifers >>> 80 Sathanases. Lucifers proved quite capable of eradicating life from planets and killing other ships. And with 640 of them, you can cover a far larger area.
EDIT:
there is NO hint that shivans grow their ships. EVERYTHING we seen suggest that the ships are built like any other ships. Of course, do the shivans build them or somone else builds them for them is another matter completely, but really irrelevant.
We've been over this before.FactConjecture : the GTVA build the Colossus to defeat any other Lucifers.
Fact: the Lucifer has shields.FactUntrue: in order for the Colossus to defeat a Lucifer, it must pierce the shields.
Fact: Beams pierce shields on a smaller scale.
Fact: The Colossus has beams.
Therefore: The Colossus could pierce the shields of the Lucifer with beam fire.
Okay, look, the idea of Shivan ships developing by von Neumann process or from holographic components is just as likely as them being built.
With the offensive power that exceeded most GTVA battlegroups, the Colossus was designed to combat the Shivans upon their return to Allied territory. The prospective target was one or more Lucifer-class super-destroyers, and it was deemed that the Colossus would not only have the firepower not only to destroy such a foe, but also to survive multiple hits from a Lucifer's primary weapon system.
How would we fight the next threat to the very existence of our species?
...
If ever the Shivans return to threaten our worlds we will be ready to face the challenge
Okay, look, the idea of Shivan ships developing by von Neumann process or from holographic components is just as likely as them being built.
No it isn't. Shivan ships being built is more likely because we know that ships can be built, we don't know it's possible for von Neumann machines or holographic components to create ships.
Kie: Explain your edit to my third statement of fact.
The Lucifer has shields, to defeat it in realspace, you must pierce the shields. Whether the shields are any good or hold up or ANYTHING like that is irrelevent. To win, it must pierce shields, which is a fact.
As for the first:Quote from: The WikiWith the offensive power that exceeded most GTVA battlegroups, the Colossus was designed to combat the Shivans upon their return to Allied territory. The prospective target was one or more Lucifer-class super-destroyers, and it was deemed that the Colossus would not only have the firepower not only to destroy such a foe, but also to survive multiple hits from a Lucifer's primary weapon system.
Backed up byQuote from: Colossus CutsceneHow would we fight the next threat to the very existence of our species?
...
If ever the Shivans return to threaten our worlds we will be ready to face the challenge
Remember that at the point this was said, the only threat to their "existence of our species" was the Lucifer, or the possibility of another.
Uhm...so, how would the Colossus destroy the Lucifer without dealing with its shields.
Tell me.
What?
We know that holographic components can build ships? Who? Where? When? Why? How?
A technologically sophisticated civilization could have started using more sophisticated methods to generate its warships. 'Grown' doesn't mean 'born as a baby', it can mean 'procedurally assembled from smart components' or whatever.
A technologically sophisticated civilization could have started using more sophisticated methods to generate its warships. 'Grown' doesn't mean 'born as a baby', it can mean 'procedurally assembled from smart components' or whatever.
Isn't that "built"?
Not if the components are self-assembling, no. Or if they're built by von Neumanns, in which case they arguably 'grow' from a seed.
Not if the components are self-assembling, no. Or if they're built by von Neumanns, in which case they arguably 'grow' from a seed.
VERY arguably. If you're gonna use the word "grow", then use it in a context most poeple would understand.
If shivans ships are built by VN's, they are still built, not grown.
1.Didn't shivans need like, 80 of them to blow up the sun?
2.Lucifers seem like a far better investment. Again, strength in number and greater area coverage.
3.B.t.w. - 8 Lucifers would rape a Sathanas.
I pwnt the lucy with its own beam (with a cheat, just had to try it). So that means it CAN be trashed. You just need the same firepower of it to take it down.
Well, no you didn't, at least not in a canon scenario - because the Lucifer always has the 'invulnerable' flag checked. :p
I guess crashing a moon into luci would kill it.
B.t.w. - 8 Lucifers would rape a Sathanas.
We've been over this before.
Fact: the GTVA build the Colossus to defeat any other Lucifers.
Fact: the Lucifer has shields.
Fact: in order for the Colossus to defeat a Lucifer, it must pierce the shields.
Fact: Beams pierce shields on a smaller scale.
Fact: The Colossus has beams.
Therefore: The Colossus could pierce the shields of the Lucifer with beam fire.
And by your logic, any beam can pierce lucy's shield. however, the GTVA doesnt even know if the lucy's shields can be pierced with beams. beam technology was developed after lucy went boom, and any remnants of the shield system are in a system that is unreachable. therefore, the GTVA was never able to test their beams on a lucy shield system.
We've been over this before.
GTVA command has never expressed the incompetence required for the Colossus not to work for its intend purpose...
They spent 20 years building it for the specific purpose of hunting prospective Lucifer-class destroyers. If they weren't very sure that the beam system would work, they wouldn't build such a massive, expensive platform for it.
We vanquished the Shivans in the Great War but the hard questions remained. How would we confront the threat of future invasion? The Shivans might return at any time, any place, without warning. How would we fight the next threat to the very existence of our species? In 2345, on the tenth anniversary of the Shivan attack on Ross 128, the Vasudan emperor Khonsu II addressed the newly-formed GTVA General Assembly. The emperor inaugurated an ambitious and unprecedented joint endeavor: The GTVA Colossus.
Khonsu II: Together we built a civilization on the ruins of the Great War, and now we stand on the threshold of a new era of prosperity and harmony. With Project Colossus, the Vasudan people celebrate our shared covenant of peaceful co-existence and mutual defense of our Terran allies.
Narrator: The Colossus is the most powerful space faring warship ever constructed. Spanning six kilometers from bow to stern, the Colossus has taken over twenty years to complete. Twelve Lucifer-class destroyers can fit within its massive hull. Its state-of-the-art weaponry includes forty-five laser turrets, fifteen flak guns, twelve missile batteries, and twelve beam cannons. The Colossus wields more firepower than five Orion-class destroyers combined. Sixty fighter and bomber wings are housed in its vast hangar and its crew numbers over thirty thousand. Among its major contractors are industry giants Triton Dynamics, Subach-Innes, and the Akheton Corporation. The alliance now wages war on multiple fronts: in Deneb, Alpha Centuri, Epsilon Pegasi, and the mysterious nebula beyond Gamma Draconis. Once deployed the Colossus will end these conflicts swiftly and decisively. If ever the Shivans return to threaten our worlds we will be ready to face the challenge, securing peace for today and for generations to come.
What they did show a colossal ineptitude for is underestimating the shivans. Which would suggest that the beams would less than fully effective.
What they did show a colossal ineptitude for is underestimating the shivans. Which would suggest that the beams would less than fully effective.
Assumes facts not in evidence. Command's underestimating the Shivans was not avoidable.
Yes it was, and it was stupid. It was said in the ancient monologues that there enough Shivan ships to blacken the skies, yet after destroying the first Sathanas, they thought they had 'nothing more to fear'. At that point Gamma Draconis should have been sealed off and an end put to any potential invasion.
The only effective method of sealing the node would have been to use meson warheads packed in destroyers, and command didn't believe sacrificing a destroyer was necessary at that point.
Even though I'd love to believe that the Lucy's shields are invulnerable to beams, I am afraid it can't be.I'd think that either the Sath-fleet was older than the Lucy one, And/or that that the Sath's were specifically sent there for collapsing Capella for *some* reason, and thus battlereadiness wasn't really prioritized...
Why?
The reason is simple: if this ship would've been invulnerable to conventional weaponry AND beams, then the Shivans would've built a huge Lucifer fleet instead of a Sathanas fleet.
Let's assume that (since the Colly is the size of 12 Lucys and a Colly is, for instance, equals a size of a Sathanas) - being really pessimistic - that you can build 8 Lucifers on the "price" of one Sathanas. If so, the Shivans could've had a fleet of 640 invulnerable ships instead of the 80 Sathanii. It is clear that the Shivans would've built the Lucys - but they didn't. Thus it is proven that the Lucy isn't invulnerable to beams.
Note: It IS possible that the Lucy needs some special resources the Shivans lacked at the time. But this is unlikely, considering the probable size of the Shivan empire and the way the canon campaigns go.
We've been over this before.Fact: bombs were the most damaging anti-cap weapons GTA/PVN had.
Fact: the GTVA build the Colossus to defeat any other Lucifers.
Fact: the Lucifer has shields.
Fact: in order for the Colossus to defeat a Lucifer, it must pierce the shields.
Fact: Beams pierce shields on a smaller scale.
Fact: The Colossus has beams.
Therefore: The Colossus could pierce the shields of the Lucifer with beam fire.
Well no not really.
After the Sathanas was destroyed, they thought it wasn't necessary to collapse the node anymore.
EDIT: lol this turned into "what are command mistakes, redux"
If you think they should have tried collapsing the node right after blowing up the Knossos failed, why would they bother? The Sathans got through already.
So...while being attacked by the Sathanas, they would develop a way to collapse the node which wouldn't even stop it? That's freaking smart....NOT.
So...while being attacked by the Sathanas, they would develop a way to collapse the node which wouldn't even stop it? That's freaking smart....NOT.
What do you mean? They tried to seal off the Draconis-nebula node before the first Sath would've arrived. But the destruction of the Knossos wasn't enough.
and the fact it doesn't is a problem with your computer and the way damage is applied?
It's a tremendous waste of resources to attempt to seal the node between the arrival of the first Sathanas and the discovery of the Second. The GTVA had no reason to believe that there were more, after all, there was only one SD Lucifer. Why would any sane person collapse that node after the first Sath went through it. It's easy to see in hindsight, but if you were there at that moment, with a Juggernaut at your door (or it being dead), you have NO REASON to collapse that node anymore.
What people try to do change base on situation... Furthermore, the GTVA didn't come up with destoyers-loaded-with-mesons until well into the Capella invasion. They definitely would not have had the means to collapse the node when the 1st sath was still active, and after it's destruction, there is no longer a need (or so they rightly think)!
Plus, do you really think the shivians would be so stupid to not advance their technology by A LOT before coming back?Hum. First : they didn't choose to come back at this exact time, they were lured by the NTF.
Plus, do you really think the shivians would be so stupid to not advance their technology by A LOT before coming back?Hum. First : they didn't choose to come back at this exact time, they were lured by the NTF.
Second : I think that equipping all their ships with beam and flak weaponry is a sufficient technology advance. Remember all their ships had blobs just like ours back in FS1.
I always thought that it was retconned with FS2: Shivans always had beams and flaks, there is nothing to see here, move on. :>Plus, do you really think the shivians would be so stupid to not advance their technology by A LOT before coming back?Hum. First : they didn't choose to come back at this exact time, they were lured by the NTF.
Second : I think that equipping all their ships with beam and flak weaponry is a sufficient technology advance. Remember all their ships had blobs just like ours back in FS1.
I once compared replacing them with beams to watching the bullet-time scenes in The Matrix at 10x speed.Agreed, I better liked slow moving SSLs.
Allright actually, they did know the big shivian armada was coming, their scout gave them intel.
I personally hate any form of retcon with a seething passion.I always thought that it was retconned with FS2: Shivans always had beams and flaks, there is nothing to see here, move on. :>Plus, do you really think the shivians would be so stupid to not advance their technology by A LOT before coming back?Hum. First : they didn't choose to come back at this exact time, they were lured by the NTF.
Second : I think that equipping all their ships with beam and flak weaponry is a sufficient technology advance. Remember all their ships had blobs just like ours back in FS1.
It's never explecitly stated, but a whole lot of things won't make sense otherwise.
That's all well and good, but :v: certainly would have equipped the Lucifer in FS1 with proper beam cannons if they had them working in the engine then. :pI once compared replacing them with beams to watching the bullet-time scenes in The Matrix at 10x speed.Agreed, I better liked slow moving SSLs.
They were unique, only Lucifer ever had such type of weaponay and it's apperance on battlefield always meant that the battle in question is doomed.
Beams, on the other hand, are dirt common in FS2 era and are far from half as menacing as SSLs and firing of a beam cannon rarely meant that everything is lost.
Comparision to speeding up bullet time is perfectly valid, there's also the fact that while beam has it chargeup sequence, SSLs always come without warning.
:wtf: I don't remember anything that could let us think that. Explain.Replay a Lion at the door. It is said there that Shivans have a new cruiser, a new fighter class, but NEVER that they have new weapons (for example at the cain there).
With the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.In FS1 they didn't have different weaponry than the Terrans and Vasudans, only at the first few missions shields were new. Only the Lucifer was special.
Allright actually, they did know the big shivian armada was coming, their scout gave them intel.
Ahahahaha BULLCRAP.
The worst thing Kappa 3 could have encountered was the Sath. It wasn't until Into The Lion's Den they became even vaguely aware of Shivan numbers.
With the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.
In FS1 they didn't have different weaponry than the Terrans and Vasudans, only at the first few missions shields were new. Only the Lucifer was special.
And last but not least it's hard to believe the Shivans had no technological advancement in 8000 years, but suddenly a lot of it within 30 years.
Though this can be explained in other ways (for example the Shivans of FS1 and FS2 are different Shivans).
Replay a Lion at the door. It is said there that Shivans have a new cruiser, a new fighter class, but NEVER that they have new weapons (for example at the cain there).Yeah, and what ? The fact that they don't mention it doesn't mean that they had beams before. On the other hand given that we can equip Fenrises with beam weaponry (with a probably ill-suited power grid given the age of those ships), and that all people in the GTVA are used to see cruiser-sized ship with beams, I don't see why they should be surprised by the new weapons of Shivans. We're 30 years later, nearly none of those GTVA pilots never fought Shivans before. And remember that the Rakshasa just blew an Aeolus up, so for sure we're aware that they now have beams :p.
In fact, at no place in the campaign is it ever said that the Shivans have a new weaponry like beam cannons or flak guns. Well for flak guns you can say they appear only on new ships (Moloch/Sath/Ravana), but the sudden appearance of beam cannons on demons, cains, lilith? Doesn't get mentioned at all.
And last but not least it's hard to believe the Shivans had no technological advancement in 8000 years, but suddenly a lot of it within 30 years.Of course that's hard to believe. Like I said above, this is a whole part of the mystery of Shivans, and by no way a reason to call the FS1 canonicity into question. And nothing says us the Shivans didn't made any advancement in 8000 years, for example nothing says they had lasers or inter-system jumps drives for fighters, or the ship designs they have now, the only thing explictly stated is that they had shields.
this line is most likely referring to "they" as in the GTA/PVN. that's how i took it anyway
With the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.If the GTA/PVN was meant by "they", why use "we" later?
Yeah, and what ? The fact that they don't mention it doesn't mean that they had beams before. On the other hand given that we can equip Fenrises with beam weaponry (with a probably ill-suited power grid given the age of those ships), and that all people in the GTVA are used to see cruiser-sized ship with beams, I don't see why they should be surprised by the new weapons of Shivans. We're 30 years later, nearly none of those GTVA pilots never fought Shivans before. And remember that the Rakshasa just blew an Aeolus up, so for sure we're aware that they now have beams .They mention Maras because they hadn't Maras before, they mention the Rakshasa because they didn't have a Rakshasa before, they mention beam cannons because they didn't have beam cannons before. Oh wait.
If :v: had wanted all Shivan ships in FS1 to have beam-type weaponry, they could have faked it by doing what they did with the Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers. The fact that they didn't, and that the Lucifer was the sole ship in FS1 with that kind of weaponry, suggests that those ships were never meant to have beams in the first place. Just because this new development wasn't mentioned in the command briefings and intelligence fluff we saw doesn't mean the pilots in-universe wouldn't have been informed of it elsewhere; hell, the reconnaissance video clip that's used for that briefing broadcasts the fact loud and clear itself.
If the GTA/PVN was meant by "they", why use "we" later?
the line is actually "With the technology we had 32 years ago, its a miracle we won the great war"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXTEZB2-OE4
If :V: had wanted all Shivan ships in FS1 to have beam-type weaponry, they could have faked it by doing what they did with the Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers. The fact that they didn't, and that the Lucifer was the sole ship in FS1 with that kind of weaponry, suggests that those ships were never meant to have beams in the first place. Just because this new development wasn't mentioned in the command briefings and intelligence fluff we saw doesn't mean the pilots in-universe wouldn't have been informed of it elsewhere; hell, the reconnaissance video clip that's used for that briefing broadcasts the fact loud and clear itself.I didn't say that shivans ships were supposed to have beams when FS1 was made, only that they were supposed to have had beams when FS2 was made.
Just because this new development wasn't mentioned in the command briefings and intelligence fluff we saw doesn't mean the pilots in-universe wouldn't have been informed of it elsewhereIf you assume already that indeed the weapons changed, it would have to be that way. But normally everyone would at least refer to that info again in a command briefing.
If :v: had wanted all Shivan ships in FS1 to have beam-type weaponry, they could have faked it by doing what they did with the Lucifer's Shivan Super Lasers. The fact that they didn't, and that the Lucifer was the sole ship in FS1 with that kind of weaponry, suggests that those ships were never meant to have beams in the first place.
With the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.
Again:QuoteWith the technology they had thirty years ago it's a mircale we won the great war.
And that's why it's called RetCon.What possible earthly reason would :v: have to pull a stunt like that, though? We all know about the nodemap changes and the few other minor differences, but this is something that would have been massively more substantial. It'd be as though :v: was saying, "Hey guys, remember the original game? Everything that happened in it still happened...but how it happened was completely different, so your actual gameplay experience was meaningless. Have a nice day!" It'd be a real kick in the pants for anyone who enjoyed the original game, without any reasonable motivation for doing so. And even putting motivation aside, given the amount of contact the community had with members of the development team in the past, don't you think something as huge as this would have come up at some point?
FS1 was before FS2. It maeks sense that at that time [V] didn't want beamz on shivan ships. Yes, they weren't mean to have beamz..THEN.
But, FS2 is made later and [V] might have changed their minds. Thus, FS2 in essence overrides FS1..like the nodemap for example.
This is a very real possiblity.
The Shivans fought nothing but Great War relics. We'll show them what firepower is all about.
With the technology they had 30 years ago, it's a miracle we won the Great War.
No shields, no flak guns, no beam cannons.
Just out of curiosity, would a FS1-era Orion class destroyer beat a FS2-era Cain class cruiser?
Incidentally, here's the expanded contextQuoteThe Shivans fought nothing but Great War relics. We'll show them what firepower is all about.
With the technology they had 30 years ago, it's a miracle we won the Great War.
No shields, no flak guns, no beam cannons.
What possible earthly reason would :v: have to pull a stunt like that, though? We all know about the nodemap changes and the few other minor differences, but this is something that would have been massively more substantial. It'd be as though :v: was saying, "Hey guys, remember the original game? Everything that happened in it still happened...but how it happened was completely different, so your actual gameplay experience was meaningless. Have a nice day!" It'd be a real kick in the pants for anyone who enjoyed the original game, without any reasonable motivation for doing so. And even putting motivation aside, given the amount of contact the community had with members of the development team in the past, don't you think something as huge as this would have come up at some point?
This argument can go either way. Unless someone actually asks a [V] dev I doubt we'll find out.Unless obvious or explicitly stated, that kind of thing cannot being considered as a retcon. All FS1 materials are canon, and nothing contradicts with FS2 canon, so there is no reason to retcon anything. It's like presumption of innocence : everything in the games IS canon unless explicitly stated otherwise, and not the contrary.
We're all getting caught up in the idea that the Shivans are thousands of years in advance of us technologically because they were around to scrape the Ancients off of they're shoes. However it's entirely possible that beam cannon technology is just as new to them as it is us.I'd say that's probably somewhat less likely, actually. The Vasudan scientists who were stranded in Altair and discovered the Ancient ruins mentioned finding evidence that they had been destroyed "by Shivan weapons." Given what happened to Vasuda Prime, I've always taken that to mean that the damage was caused by beam weaponry, maybe even by the Lucifer itself. I do think it's likely that the Lucifer fleet and Sathanas fleet represent two widely-separated eras of Shivan development, though.
I do think it's likely that the Lucifer fleet and Sathanas fleet represent two widely-separated eras of Shivan development, though.Indeed.
I don't think Lucy's shields would really be invulnerable, but it would require a massive amount of FS firepower to damage it.Yeah. A rifle bullet releases about 3.9 million joules, an elastic band releases (estimate on speed at ~30m/s) 1.7 thousand joules. Yet I don't believe firing 2300 elastic bands will go through 1.3 cm steel
Based on the Engine, I wouldn't think even beams would hurt it quite a lot. The Harbringer deals 3200 damage, and an SRed deals 23,000 damage per pulse, which is equal to about 7 Harbringers.
If we put FS to reality, though, beams could have a chance. Let's take WWII tanks. Let's say a Sherman's 75 mm gun deals 100 damage. Let's take a Tiger's 88 mm cannon; I don't think the ratio would be fair; the Tiger's would probably deal 160 damage or so. The effect of penetration is quite important.
Meaning to say, although a BGreen's firepower is equal to 7 Harbs, it would do a Lucy type shield greater damage.
Yeah. A rifle bullet releases about 3.9 million joules, an elastic band releases (estimate on speed at ~30m/s) 1.7 thousand joules. Yet I don't believe firing 2300 elastic bands will go through 1.3 cm steel
EDIT: Anyone who thinks shivans are protecting us from something - you don't protect someone by shooting at him.
If they wanted to help us, they would have just given us the shields or any other tech.
Any SF that has aliens with such an agenda (we'll wage war against you so you can grow) is IMHO, bull****.
Why? It could be a species-wide application of the Robbers Cave principle. There's no question that outside threats unite otherwise disparate groups.
And there's no question there are better ways to educate and grow....ones involving less mass killings.
If that's the cacse, then the shivan's creators were insane or terribly stupid.
And yes, there are better ways. *shocked*
If that's the cacse, then the shivan's creators were insane or terribly stupid.
And yes, there are better ways. *shocked*
What? We haven't managed it as a species. We don't have a better way.
Or is it because of al lthe lives and infrastructure lost during a war that could be used? Destroying research stations with scientists is a sure-fire way to help us grow! Yeah right.. :rolleyes:
In any case, this has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with psychology.
If that was the extent of :V:s thinking, we wouldn't have had those Ancient monologue cutscenes.
I always thought the monologues were part of the ancient database they recovered.
Who says the Shivans aren't the worst thing out there?:v:
It's not 'my solution' or 'my theory' or anything of the sort. It's just one reading of the text.
And you're still not getting it: the Shivans are not there to make friends or form alliances. They are there to kill species that are a threat to other species. If the species in question start working together, then the Shivans lose interest in them.
There is no reason the Shivans should care about the number of lives lost.
Except hte shivies still attack in fS2, were humies and the Zods are bussom buddies.
Except they contninued their attack in FS1, even after the GTA and PVN united.
So no, I don't see it as a credible theory.
I thought the ancients would have destroyed humanity if the shivans had not stopped them. IDK i could be wrong, but if memory serves correct, the ancients force is a lot more deadly then that of the shivans. So i would agree that volution said so, unless someone says otherwise
Ad.1) - More Deadly of intention, not of firepower.I thought the ancients would have destroyed humanity if the shivans had not stopped them. IDK i could be wrong, but if memory serves correct, the ancients force is a lot more deadly then that of the shivans. So i would agree that volution said so, unless someone says otherwise
Ad.1 : if the ancient force is a lot more deadly thAn that of the shivans, then shivans lose methinks. But they kicked Ancient asses.
Ad.2. : What the hell is volution and what did they say?
No, actually, from a certain perspective, they don't. They are attacked in the nebula, and they venture into GTVA space to close off jump nodes by destroying Capella. "Leave us alone, you're not a valid target." And, ironically, they show up right when the NTF is causing trouble with the alliance! (This may have more to do with the NTF than with the Shivans, though.)
They continued their attack until the Terrans and Vasudans actually worked together hard to stop them.
See above. There's nothing against it.
They were atacked in the nebule? WTF are you on?
They came from the portal and attacke. I don't remember anyone going in attacking them first.
Closing off jump nodeS? No, the blew up a sun. If all they wanted to do is close the 2 jump nodes, they could have done it with a lot less hassle. And why Capella and not Gamma Draconis?
The Trinity entered the portal into Shivan space; presumably the Shivans defended themselves and moved aggressively to figure out what was going on.
The Shivans may have viewed Capella as more suitable, and the supernova process may be more reliable than simple node cauterization. Or they may have just wanted another good nebula. It's all speculation.
This theory is actually one of the most strongly endorsed by FS canon, going by the FS1 outro. There is no disconfirming evidence present.
Trinity ventured into Shivan space... so they thought "You have NO business here, GTVA!"...
Maybe the Capella was... a punishment? It is said that Capella is omgawesome for Terrans.
Coincidence?
Trinity ventured into Shivan space... so they thought "You have NO business here, GTVA!"...
Maybe the Capella was... a punishment? It is said that Capella is omgawesome for Terrans.
Coincidence?
Somebody from another country steps onto your property, so you nuke that guy's country (or at least the city he comes from). Happens only in FreeSpace and USA :D
But yeah, I'm fairly sure that Trinity was the initial reason for the Shivan incursion. Perhaps they thought exactly like the GTVA did ? "ZOMFG, a portal that was dormant for millenias is now operating in the middle of our territory and ships are pouring through it. Let's secure the area."
Also, I don't think that Trinity was the only ship that entered the nebula. Remember Terran debris floating around and mention of an attack ? Seriously, do you think that a single Fenris would withstand a Shivan attack long enough ? My theory is that several cruisers, perhaps even a corvette went past the portal and they got pwned. Trinity managed to flee from the battle in the middle of chaos and shut down non-essential system to avoid being detected. Or something like this.
Yes, because sending a single cruiser to try to establish contact is a clear act of agression. A single cruiser! Surely hte shivna collective is in great peril!
To close themselves off from the GTVA all they had to do was collapse ONE node in GD.
See, I'm arguing that this theory is one of many that's possible. You're arguing...er, something. I'm not sure.
No, you dip****. They send a single cruiser and the single cruiser's like "holycrap SHIVVVVVAAAAANS" and then it opens fire on the Shivan patrol who just wanted to scan it.
Collapsing a node is an operation that they know will be ineffective, because the Terrans have a Knossos, so they probably have the knowledge to reopen the nodes. It's not sufficent to collapse a node, and we're not even sure a destroyer couldn't survive a young supernova nebula to boot, so it's not sufficent merely to blow up Gamma Drac either.
I think Battuta's theory isn't that Shivans fear GTVA, but that they are engaged somewhere else and that they can't afford to divert a part of their fleet to fight a war they of course could easily win but maybe not quickly enough and not without necessary losses.
I think Battuta's theory isn't that Shivans fear GTVA, but that they are engaged somewhere else and that they can't afford to divert a part of their fleet to fight a war they of course could easily win but maybe not quickly enough and not without necessary losses.
I think Battuta's theory isn't that Shivans fear GTVA, but that they are engaged somewhere else and that they can't afford to divert a part of their fleet to fight a war they of course could easily win but maybe not quickly enough and not without necessary losses.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. (It's not 'my theory', it's just a theory that could work.) I don't think the Shivans are afraid of anybody, nor that they have other wars going on that they can't win. As far as I'm concerned the Shivans are near-omnipotent.
In any case, what I've been explaining is simply what's said in the FS1 outro: that the Shivans exist to destroy races that are a threat to other races. Furthermore, they provide incentive for species to work together.
In FS2 the Terrans and Vasudans are no longer seen as a threat to each other, so the Shivans cut off contact.
I had always assumed they destroyed any terrestrial races that colonized other planets, being as that would keep new species and intelligent races from growing. I believe freespace one postulated this,
it is stated in one of the ancient monologues that the ancients' empire expanded for thousands of years before they discovered subspace. the shivans did not attack until then
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further, spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.
And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.