Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Krackers87 on November 05, 2009, 07:42:32 pm
-
It's come to my attention this morning that a very heinous act has been undertaken by Toyota in the effect of trying to blatantly cover up and deny an obviously faulty mechanism in the electronic acceleration control unit that exists in almost all Toyota made after 2002. This fault causes the car to suddenly accelerate to incredibly fast speeds (120mph+) without any input into the acceleration pad, while the brake has little effect, as the car continues to accelerate with the brake pressed. There has been 2000+ reported cases of this event happening, 16 fatalities, and I'm sure much more that have gone unreported or hidden.
The most heinous part is Toyota has tried to blame driver error (people failing to realize they have the foot on the acceleration pad, and don't have the competence to remove their foot to save their lives, ie: bull****) or by claiming it was due to an over sized floor mat that made the gas pedal become stuck (ie: more bull****) in fact there is a video of a police officer and his family in a Lexus with a dash mounted, audio enabled cam that recorded the 30 seconds prior to their fatal collision in an intersection, where they frantically tried to do whatever they could to bring their speeding vehicle to a halt, to no avail. And its safe to say a well trained police officer would notice the mat holding the acceleration pad down, let alone any mildly competent driver. As well it also means that Toyota would claim that this man had no concern for his family and was pushing the pedal all the way down and speeding prior to said mat holding the pedal down (as the pedal would of had to be pressed almost all the way in for the mat covering it and holding it to be a slight possibility.)
Want something even more despicable? Toyota continues to sell these deadly vehicles without adressing the real problem at hand, by simply removing the floor mats in the cars they now sell. Which by the way there have been several reported incidents of vehicles without ANY floormats, succumbing to the same problem.
The word needs to be spread about this and ive started a facebook group to do so, and possibly help organize people into picketing or putting up flyers (which i myself will be doing aswell)
Something to keep in mind, just how many fatalities do you think were falsely attributed to drunk driving or speeding recklessly or other driver related deficiency, when this was the real issue? After all, dead people dont talk, and cant tell anyone else what happened, and also since they "reportedly"cant pinpoint any electrical problem it cant really be checked for in a crash with only deceased witnesses now can it? This is especially concerning considering the majority of fatalities attributed to this error, seemed to only be reported as such because there was a survivor or close witness, with the one exception of the police officer whose whole family died, but happened to have a dash-cam. Really think about that.
The facebook group:: http://www.facebook.com/pages/RUNAWAY-TOYOTA-Spreading-info-on-Toyotas-dangerous-acceleration-defect/173431857261?v=wall
There is more information with links to various news reports and lists of the vehicles considered to be at risk, although its possible other vehicles can succumb to this if they share the same acceleration control unit.
Please help me spread the word on this, if only a few people organize and stop people from buying Toyota, we can easily cost the company millions (just one car not being sold easily denies them 20-40 thousand) for throwing our lives to the side in search of bigger profits.
More info:
http://www.katu.com/news/problemsolver/68998462.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-cover-runaway-car-concerns/story?id=9007163
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/safety-officials-runaway-toyota-issue-closed/story?id=8987811
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8980024
-
I call bull****.
-
I'd have to agree.
2000 reports out of how many millions of vehicles sold in that same time frame?
While sad, it probably falls within the failure rate of that particular part. To be fair, I think Toyota does need to offer a free inspection/replacement of this part to anyone who asks for it.
But this is hardly something that requires the scale of action you are suggesting.
-
2000+ reports of the vehicle being stuck in 120mph mode and only 16 fatalities?
-
I'd have to agree.
2000 reports out of how many millions of vehicles sold in that same time frame?
While sad, it probably falls within the failure rate of that particular part. To be fair, I think Toyota does need to offer a free inspection/replacement of this part to anyone who asks for it.
But this is hardly something that requires the scale of action you are suggesting.
I'm soirry but for something that expensive and important, its unaceptable, and the point is that theyve been covering this up very adamantly, denying this problem exists, so that number is probably much less than the real one, and as for fatalaties, since toyota denies the malfunction, if people die, tit doesent get reported as said malfunction, since theres no witnesses, so the fatality number has to be without a doubt, lower than the real amount.
Also there are cars in which fail safes exist, to cut off acceleration that toyota does not include in their cars, also, why the hell wouldnt this be existent in other makes? Toyota isnt the only one to use electronic accelerator control, yet thyre the only one to have this issue.
Also id like to point out my mother, owns a 08 Camry, and my sister is often in that car, and for you to rationalize a company's complete disregard for my family's safety i find insulting. This is not a "normal failure rate"if you actually looked into the information i painstakingly put together before making a judgment like that, you could of found the chart the shows the major spike in these incidents in TOYOTAS ALONE after 2002.
-
Turn off the car, frak.
Also, [citation needed].
-
Turn off the car, frak.
Also, [citation needed].
Not that easy, if you turn it off you lose power steering and power brakes in the said Toyota models causing the car to loose control as you can no longer effectively steer, or brake, there's a significantly more precise way to halt the car, involving putting it in neutral and braking, and using the e brake at the same time, but the problem is this shouldn't EVER happen, and B, what about people who aren't aware of this problem beforehand? Possibly a little surprising when you all of a sudden realize your car has decided to forgo your input and control itself, a little bit surprising eh? maybe not the best time to expect rational thought?
Seriously though, i hope that this isnt the widespread opinion that this issue is somehow ok, or excusable as "well some are bound to have faults" Really? I hope someone else has some strong opinions on cars trying to essentially kill people almost on their own.
And for someone who has lived in crowded city's, in a situation like this you may have zero time to react, as the surprise of you car controlling itself, may not lend the time for you to execute the somewhat complex, and in no means quick, way of slowing the car down. Imagine if this triggered when you were coming to a stop infront of a busy intersection, you would have no chance, and be instantly launched towards your demise, If you've lived in an area like DC you'll get what i mean.
-
Apparently ABC News has the story.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas)
I guess I should be glad my Tundra is manual.
-
Again, [citation needed]. Sorry, but I am not going to take your word for this. Are there reports about this failure mode available somewhere? Any technical reports, preferably?
Also, from that article:
"Toyota has announced a safety recall involving 3.8 million vehicles in which the accelerator pedal may become stuck at high vehicle speeds due to interference by the driver's side floor mat, which is obviously a very dangerous situation. Toyota has written to vehicle owners stating that it has decided that a safety defect exists in their vehicles and asking owners to remove all floor mats while the company is developing a remedy. We believe consumers should follow Toyota's recommendation to address the most immediate safety risk. However, removal of the mats is simply an interim measure, not a remedy of the underlying defect in the vehicles. NHTSA is discussing with Toyota what the appropriate vehicle remedy or remedies will be. This matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the vehicle defect by providing a suitable remedy."
-
Huh, after a quick googling this looks like it's for real. I'm still kind of surprised that the brakes are being overpowered though.
-
Don't bite my head off. I never said it shouldn't be rectified. I just said that statistically it's like a 0.5% failure rate, which isn't that bad.
-
with the computerization of vehicles i think the number 1 reason people go to a mechanic is to get a sensor replaced. the last dozen times someone i knew went to a mechanic was because of a "bad sensor". something like an accelerometer controlling how fast you go should be triple redundant at least. frankly im surprised hardware and software bugs haven't caused more failures like this. when it comes right down to it any company will avoid a recall if the cost of it exceeds what they would expect pay in legal fees and settlements.
-
Don't bite my head off. I never said it shouldn't be rectified. I just said that statistically it's like a 0.5% failure rate, which isn't that bad.
For 30,000$+ it sure as hell is, and remember, that figure is almost certainly vastly unreported.
Again, [citation needed]. Sorry, but I am not going to take your word for this. Are there reports about this failure mode available somewhere? Any technical reports, preferably?
Also, from that article:
"Toyota has announced a safety recall involving 3.8 million vehicles in which the accelerator pedal may become stuck at high vehicle speeds due to interference by the driver's side floor mat, which is obviously a very dangerous situation. Toyota has written to vehicle owners stating that it has decided that a safety defect exists in their vehicles and asking owners to remove all floor mats while the company is developing a remedy. We believe consumers should follow Toyota's recommendation to address the most immediate safety risk. However, removal of the mats is simply an interim measure, not a remedy of the underlying defect in the vehicles. NHTSA is discussing with Toyota what the appropriate vehicle remedy or remedies will be. This matter is not closed until Toyota has effectively addressed the vehicle defect by providing a suitable remedy."
All the links to relevant articles were on the facebook group located through the link ion the first post, but, i guess being the conveince of having to click one less link is that important that my point is negligible otherwise, here they are:
http://www.katu.com/news/problemsolver/68998462.html
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/toyota-cover-runaway-car-concerns/story?id=9007163
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/RunawayToyotas/safety-officials-runaway-toyota-issue-closed/story?id=8987811
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8980024
Also the whole floor mat thing is BOGUS its simply meant to put off and delay admitting the truth or to distract from the real issue, there is not a SINGLE incident i have been able to find where the driver claimed the floor-mat held the pedal down, and besides that fact, think about how the pedal and the mat are placed, how could the mat possibly flop over the pedal to hold it down, unless in all these incidents people decided to literally floor the pedal itself, bringing it close enough for something like that to happen.
Also explain to me why when i called Toyota earlier today, and confronted them with this problem, and how they were lying, they assigned a case handler in order to buy my moms 08 Camry back from her at full market price, while they haven't actually done so yet, they expressed unrestricted willingness to do so after i pointed out they were covering up the real problem at hand.
I believe that counts as a confession my good sir :)
-
A 0.5% failure rate for something like the left brakelight or the windshield wipers isn't a big deal...If the gas tank explodes every once in a blue moon on its own, it's a big deal. We can establish that different "acceptable fail rates" exist for different kinds of problems, and I'd classify the "car speeds up really quick with no input" under the "not acceptable" category.
-
Thing is, some of these reported incidents seem to be from people who didn't even have the floor-mat fitted, or, at the very least, claim to not have them.
I find it kind of hard to accept that one of the people who was killed, a Highway Patrol Officer, wouldn't have considered that the pedal got stuck under the mat.
The 911 call involved is recorded, but extremely unsettling, so I will leave people to choose whether to find it or not, since it takes place just before and during an accident in which 4 people died, and is from inside the vehicle.
-
Thing is, some of these reported incidents seem to be from people who didn't even have the floor-mat fitted, or, at the very least, claim to not have them.
I find it kind of hard to accept that one of the people who was killed, a Highway Patrol Officer, wouldn't have considered that the pedal got stuck under the mat.
The 911 call involved is recorded, but extremely unsettling, so I will leave people to choose whether to find it or not, since it takes place just before and during an accident in which 4 people died, and is from inside the vehicle.
My point exactly, and i didn't post the video here or on the face book group for the exact same reason.
-
0.5% failure rate (in what time though?) in this type of use is unacceptable. It should be a simple, idiot-proof control input integral to safe operation of the vehicle.
An electrical throttle can, if it's done properly, be used to control engine power safely and reliably; in fact all cars with electrically controlled fuel injection do that, no matter if the throttle pedal itself is dealth with mechanical linkage to the engine or with an electrical system. Of course, you would want a fairly reliable electric throttle; I would not recommend subcontracting it to Logitech.
That said, mechanical linkage throttles have had issues with throttle stuck open as well, but not on a level that would affect a whole production batch of cars. Why is it not particularly fatal, historically speaking? Because in a proper car you can push the clutch down and set gear to neutral. Personally I'd say the accidents and fatalities associated to this particular problem are probably not only the singular fault of the throttle system, but a compound result of all the ultimately unnecessary systems in the cars that cause an aberration from normal operation of the machinery to become a fatal malfunction. It's all fine and well to have better fuel efficiency, safety and ease of operation while everything works out normally, but when one can not turn the engine off because power brakes (?) and power steering requires the engine to run to operate normally, I call shenanigans on that sort of technology. A car should be able to remain fully controllable when engine shuts down during drive (as a result of whatever).
Things become all sorts of more dangerous if you truly cannot either turn the engine off or put the gear to neutral. If these cars' gear boxes cannot be switched to neutral so that no power is transmitted to wheels, then the issue becomes fully the car's fault. If not, I would expect any competent driver to react to uncontrolled power increase by turning the power transmission off, either with pushing down the clutch and setting gear to neutral, or putting the automatic transmission to neutral, either way. Then stop the car and turn off engine. If this cannot be done, then the issue becomes a much more of a death trap rather than an annoying malfunction.
Of course, personally I dislike power steering in normal automobiles. If you can't turn the steering wheel without power steering, you're either driving a too big car or you need to go to the gym. Personally, I've driven cars with and without power steering, both on highways and in cities and parking lots and in all cases I have preferred the cars without power steering, because they had a tighter feedback between the position of the steering wheel and the position of the front wheels, and they also delivered more precise information about the surface of the road; I had much more information about the traction of the road with the cars with no power steering. Plus, when the engine is turned off the steering becomes really heavy (though manageable) in cars with power steering...
Power brakes are in fact ok, because they are operated by a vacuum servo that uses a stored vacuum to increase the braking force, and the brakes can still be operated when the vacuum is depleted by pumping the brakes to build up pressure in absence of the vacuum servo - unless the car just happens to have ABS brakes in which case pumping the brakes becomes completely useless....
Same goes, to lesser extent, with automatic gear boxes, traction control and ABS brakes, in descending order of aggravation. Automatic gear boxes obviously make it a whole lot more convenient to drive automobiles around in an environment where speed greatly varies (read: towns and cities). But it's not really necessary after you learn to drive stick, plus you get a third, awesome pedal in your feet which can be used to directly regulate the engine's connection to the drivetrain. In addition, the car can be towed on neutral (what a revolutionary feature) and you can decide yourself when to change gears (which you can use to regulate fuel efficiency to some extent).
Traction control, ugh, where do I begin. Not only does it make people think their cars can be driven against the laws of physics ("But I had traction control, I shouldn't have lost the control of the car!") but they also prevent them from learning to react to weather conditions and to correct small mistakes. Essentially, it prevents a lot of small errors and piles them into catastrophic loss of traction when the interface between the tires and the road simply can not provide large enough sideways force to keep the car on the road - and as a result it goes into the woods perfectly straight and "under control". See, traction control has nothing to do with controlling traction. It controls the car's heading in situations where traction is already lost, and prevents it from turning sideways while waiting for velocity to die down and the traction to return. Saying that it controls traction is false in the first place; nothing in the car can control that except the driver, who must keep the situational velocity at appropriate level. Traction control simply makes it normally unnecessary to learn this; without traction control, you are forced to compensate for small loss of traction manually, and you get a warning of the road traction a whole lot earlier than when you have ESP or other driving aids available.
For partially same reasons, though to lesser extent, I don't particularly like ABS brakes either. True, it keeps the car controllable under braking and since it makes the basic instinctual reaction of any sane driver - to stood on the brakes when they want the car to STOP NOW OH GOD into an actually correct action and stops the car in fast, efficient and correct way. When it works. But again it removes the need for drivers to actually learn to brake in a controllable fashion, and can cause issues when malfunctioning, or when a driver assumes the car has ABS, or assumes that there aren't ABS brakes, since the two require different braking methods.
Summa summarum.
If the technology on cars goes to the level that they start suffering from operating system crashes and bugs and you need to restart the system to get out of error state, I call shenanigans. What are they going to do next, upgrade the drivers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2AcMnfzpNg&fmt=18)?
-
upgrade the drivers
ARRRRRRRRRGH
-
I have done some work in the vehicle safety. Given the amount of stuff that is supposed to protect the personnel inside the car, it is relatively hard to believe this kind of major fault would be allowed to exist in a car, or that a manufacturer would try to cover it up. What I find suspicious is that I have never heard of a single incident like that in Europe. Comparing this to the flak Mercedes Benz received after the A-model was found to be susceptible for rolls, or at the Chinese SUV that failed miserably in the crash tests, it would be all in the headlines.
I don't say it is impossible, but as long as nobody can reproduce or find the error from the throttle control software, there is not much grounds on these claims. Nor can the manufacturer do much else than recheck the software performance. However, if it turns out that they have indeed tried to cover this up (for some unfathomable reason), it would likely be the kiss of the death for the company.
If this is true, I would expect that the most likely explanations are faulty chips, or electrical wiring shielding problems. Both of which would raise serious questions about the Toyota quality control department.
-
Having checked some of the stuff here, loose mats have turned out to be a problem and cause of a couple of accidents, not only with Toyotas. There have been no casualities whatsoever, and the drivers usually state that the mat prevented the movement of a pedal. Personally, I think the real reason should is negligence from the driver with respect to the driving environment. Then there have been a couple of incidents where throttle pedal fixture got stuck in the rest of the frame. Repairing that consisted of cutting a larger hole for the pedal - though this is something what I would expect manufacturers to correct. There is a large amount of close call incidents available where the driver was able to release the throttle pedal with toes.
Keeping in mind that similar stuff happened with Audi 5000 in US back in 80s, the majority of those cases turned out to be drivers simply pressing the wrong pedal. In one case the observers didn't see any braking lights lighting up. However, there have been some cruise control issues with Chevrolet where user could accidentally activate it causing sudden accelerations in, for example, red lights.
Besides, I thought that typical car brakes should be designed to excert more power on tires than the engine can output in any possible situation. By several times.
Perhaps Stealth can tell us more about this stuff?
-
"I kept going faster and faster," James said. "And all of a sudden… my foot was pressing on the brake super, super hard and I wasn't slowing down."
Hm, remembers me of an incident of a ship I happened to be on.
It crashed into the stone pier with full power, because the skipper mistook full power forward with full power backwards :>
Nothing happened except a broken anchor though... (been only a 20m ship)
Seriously, a claim "I did press the brake" isn't very convincing - such mistakes happen all the time. And you maybe can't even recall, because you don't order your feet to press the left/right one, you order your feet to press the one that brakes. And you remember you ordered your feet to brake, so apparently the car accelarated even though you hit the brakes.
On a side note, I can't understand why anyone would like to use an automatic gear box, but.. :>
-
On a side note, I can't understand why anyone would like to use an automatic gear box, but.. :>
Because we want to be able to drive and scratch our nuts at the same time? :p
-
"I kept going faster and faster," James said. "And all of a sudden… my foot was pressing on the brake super, super hard and I wasn't slowing down."
Hm, remembers me of an incident of a ship I happened to be on.
It crashed into the stone pier with full power, because the skipper mistook full power forward with full power backwards :>
Nothing happened except a broken anchor though... (been only a 20m ship)
Seriously, a claim "I did press the brake" isn't very convincing - such mistakes happen all the time. And you maybe can't even recall, because you don't order your feet to press the left/right one, you order your feet to press the one that brakes. And you remember you ordered your feet to brake, so apparently the car accelarated even though you hit the brakes.
On a side note, I can't understand why anyone would like to use an automatic gear box, but.. :>
I don't know about you but the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal have different shapes and definitely feel different in operation. Even if the driver did panic.... in at least a couple of the cases where the vehicle allegedly went out of control the person in control had several minutes to try and stop the vehicle (in the one case as it was speeding down the interstate). I don't think they are misplacing the pedals... it could be something lodged physically or it could be faulty software or goodness knows what. In most of these cases they can't turn off the car either because its a push button start system.
My car is a Toyota so I'm a bit concerned but its only happened to a small percentage so the chances of it being my car are lower.... and I think the first thing I'd do is take out the key from the ignition. Next step slam on the brakes and the E brake...
-
I don't know about you but the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal have different shapes and definitely feel different in operation. Even if the driver did panic.... in at least a couple of the cases where the vehicle allegedly went out of control the person in control had several minutes to try and stop the vehicle (in the one case as it was speeding down the interstate). I don't think they are misplacing the pedals... it could be something lodged physically or it could be faulty software or goodness knows what. In most of these cases they can't turn off the car either because its a push button start system.
My car is a Toyota so I'm a bit concerned but its only happened to a small percentage so the chances of it being my car are lower.... and I think the first thing I'd do is take out the key from the ignition. Next step slam on the brakes and the E brake...
The different shape doesn't get noticed, because it's an unconscious mistake - sure, if you are actively trying to feel the big one, so you can brake you will realize if you got the wrong one - but if you just think "brake", and let your training handle the rest, it can happen.
You easily learn to think of what you want to achieve, not how exactly you have to move the leg. You think "car, turn left", and let your muscles and training handle the rest - you turn the wheel in the correct direction without even thinking consciously about it.
On the other hand, that's only a reasonable explanation if you have at most 5-10 seconds to react - any longer and you quite certainly will check if your legs are doing what they are supposed to do, so if that has gone on for minutes, I have to admit that can't be an explanation.
However, it probably is the reason for at least some of those stories. Simply because if someone told me that no one ever had problems with a car speeding up even if he wanted it to slow down, I wouldn't believe him - just because those mistakes happen.
However, if you can go on for minutes without being able to stop the car, the problem imho is not a "simple" electronical one, it's a problem of the underlying design. Maybe I need to read all of the posted links and not only an extract, but I would be curious to see a report of how all possible means (except an inentional crash) to stop the car have failed - and the response to that.
Because we want to be able to drive and scratch our nuts at the same time? :p
I can do that without automatic, one hand for the nuts, one for the steering wheel and the gear shift ;)
-
I can't see most drivers accidentally stepping on the accelerator instead of the brake, at least not if they've had a few years' worth of experience. I recently came extremely close to hitting a deer on a four-lane roadway (in fact, I might have actually brushed up against the damn thing) that decided to try cutting across the road all of a sudden, and I unconsciously slammed on the brake before my brain even had the chance to register "Deer!" Provided you've driven enough to develop muscle memory, I'd think your foot knows where it needs to go.
Edit: Dammit, beaten again.
Because we want to be able to drive and scratch our nuts at the same time? :p
I can do that without automatic, one hand for the nuts, one for the steering wheel and the gear shift ;)
Now that's just unsafe. :p
But seriously, unless I was buying a powerful car that absolutely warranted a manual, I'd go automatic every time for the simple reason that it requires less work. Plus, I've managed to accidentally downshift and blow the engine in every racing game with manual shifting I've ever played, so I'd rather not put that to the test in an actual vehicle.
-
Former incidents of uncontrolled acceleration of the car have mostly turned out to be driver mistakes, at least in the case of the Audi. Similar cases (does not depend on the car brand) here nowadays have turned out to be driver mistakes. I.e. letting the floor mat be loose, or wearing extra wide shoes. Or using space reserved for driver's feet as extra storage space. Though I have read about one incident where there really was a mechanical obstruction within the movement zone of the pedal. Further, I find it odd that similar cars in Europe have not caused such problems.
I think the correct procedure to slow down the car is to switch to neutral position, hitting brakes (not using maximum force immediately is a mistake), and then shutting down the engine when driver sees the situation manageable. Yes the engine will likely over-rev, but it has limiters that should last sufficient amount of time. If it is absolutely necessary to shut down the engine, do NOT take away the ignition key. Doing this will cause steering lock to activate. Turning off the electricity will cause these things to happen: power steering is gone (this should still be manageable) and power braking is gone - this is lot more serious as driver must really jump on the pedal and push as hard as physically possible. It is my understanding that not all cars allow that many attempts for braking after electricity is lost.
Mika
-
After power brakes are gone, there's still some stored pressure differential in the vacuum servo, so it does still function for a very limited time after the power for vacuum pump is lost. Aside from that, hydraulic brakes can be pumped in absence of the vacuum servo, and technically they should offer the same braking power, it just takes a bit longer to build up the pressure just by pumping the pedal, compared to what the vacuum servo does almost instantaneously.
Bigger issues are involved if the car has ABS brakes, in which case you just need to step on the brake hard, keep it down there and just hope that the car will stop in time. At least based on my current knowledge. Of course, majority of modern automobiles does have ABS brakes... :nervous:
Btw, regarding manual vs automatic gears... downshifting accidentally is totally not a problem, since you tend to notice it quite immediately and using the clutch becomes quite natural, so you just re-apply clutch and put on the correct gear. I've had instances where I accidentally put on third gear instead of fifth while accelerating, but I've never had the engine hit the rev limiter.
-
I've had instances where I accidentally put on third gear instead of fifth while accelerating, but I've never had the engine hit the rev limiter.
Is that really a mistake? ;)
My parents shifted to an automatic some time ago. Driving it first time ensured hilarity, as all the cars I drove before were manuals. I had some problems to get decent acceleration of that thing, hitting max throttle was not enough. I had to release the damn pedal and push it way down again to tell the system I wanted to switch to power mode. What followed after was something I hadn't witnessed before, like the RPM needle moving to the red area - stopping somewhere around 7400 RPM, but it really did provide extra power.
And I thought 5500 RPMs with manual gear three was enough before in those cases...
-
I've had instances where I accidentally put on third gear instead of fifth while accelerating, but I've never had the engine hit the rev limiter.
Is that really a mistake? ;)
Yes, if you're already on the fourth gear.
1 3 5
2 4
-
But seriously, unless I was buying a powerful car that absolutely warranted a manual, I'd go automatic every time for the simple reason that it requires less work. Plus, I've managed to accidentally downshift and blow the engine in every racing game with manual shifting I've ever played, so I'd rather not put that to the test in an actual vehicle.
Well, the less work argument certainly is true.
But I can't imagine you can break the engine that way in a normal car, it happened to me to shift into second from fifth (instead of fourth) while going around 100km/h (maybe 60mph), and nothing really happened. Well, ok, the engine got a little loud cause it had so many rpm, but no damage.
What I completely dislike about automatic is, that your control over the car get's limited - I can foresee what's going to happen, if I want to accelerate fast cause I'm entering the interstate with 50km/h or are driving on a larger street in the city, and want to save fuel with 50km/h. One requires third gear for sudden and strong acceleration, the other one fifth to save fuel. An automatic system has absolutely no way to know beforehand what I'm doing, it doesn't see where I'm driving, and so cannot prepare.
Hm... should I stop derailing?
-
I've got an automatic with sport shifter on my Corolla XRS. I use it more than I thought I would... especially when passing but on other occasions as well. Its not true automatic but its not bad... Plus I think the future will be in DSG transmissions. Manual shifts when you want them and automatic when you want it and pretty much the full advantages of both. VW is already going that way and Ford is about to from the sounds of it.
Back on topic I wonder what the next steps will be. Lots of interesting things happening around this issue. Toyota is in the automotive press so much recently so this issue and others are all trying to get attention.
-
The downshifting argument was a bit of a joke, since that usually consisted of me intentionally going from fourth to first in NASCAR Racing 2 (good ol' Papyrus) just to hear the engine blow. But I'll stick with the less-work argument. As far as needing an extra burst of power to pass someone goes, depressing the accelerator a substantial amount generally forces a downshift in every automatic I've ever driven.
-
Yes, if you're already on the fourth gear.
1 3 5
2 4
Oh, I see, you are talking about Speeding Up the car rather than AcceleratingTM the car.
I tend to skip the fourth gear altogether.
-
I've got an automatic with sport shifter on my Corolla XRS. I use it more than I thought I would... especially when passing but on other occasions as well. Its not true automatic but its not bad... Plus I think the future will be in DSG transmissions. Manual shifts when you want them and automatic when you want it and pretty much the full advantages of both. VW is already going that way and Ford is about to from the sounds of it.
Back on topic I wonder what the next steps will be. Lots of interesting things happening around this issue. Toyota is in the automotive press so much recently so this issue and others are all trying to get attention.
I've driven a few customer cars with auto and manual shift paddles. TBH they seemed kinda poinltess and I just let the auto do the work.
-
I've got an automatic with sport shifter on my Corolla XRS. I use it more than I thought I would... especially when passing but on other occasions as well. Its not true automatic but its not bad... Plus I think the future will be in DSG transmissions. Manual shifts when you want them and automatic when you want it and pretty much the full advantages of both. VW is already going that way and Ford is about to from the sounds of it.
Back on topic I wonder what the next steps will be. Lots of interesting things happening around this issue. Toyota is in the automotive press so much recently so this issue and others are all trying to get attention.
I've driven a few customer cars with auto and manual shift paddles. TBH they seemed kinda poinltess and I just let the auto do the work.
Useful if you end up on hills a lot or need to pass a transport truck or some crazy person driving 60 kph in a 80 kph zone. Plus its sort of fun to tap over to Sport, tap down a couple of times to put the engine in a good spot and then hit the accelerator. Plus its great for impressing the other folks in the car :)
-
A highway patrol officer around where I live died because of this bull****. Toyota needs to get their heads out of their asses.
-
I won't buy vehicles with automatic transmissions if I can avoid it. But then again, I come from the land of real mountain roads, so it's kind of necessary if you don't want to go through brake pads on a yearly basis.
Also, manuals are much more fun and satisfying to drive.
-
But they are a real pain when you run into constant stop and go traffic like I do on a semi-regular basis.
-
Besides 90% of the population here in the states doesn't know how to drive around one. Particularly one that is loaded to capacity. Was hauling a load of corn to the port head and this crazy ***** blazed up behind me as I was coming out of a stop blaring on her horn cause I wasn't accelerating fast enough to suit her, I'd like to see her try and drive a Chevy 3500 with 10000 lbs of grain on the back.
-
:wtf: there's a toyota that can go over 120mph made after 2002?
seriously?
Well, its nice to see that there are others whom also know that TOYotas..
..suck. quite simply put :doubt: i wish i could muster up some more reasoning other than that they discontinue any sort of 'cool' car (supra) in favor of the boring and lame in scary numbers.
-
:wtf: there's a toyota that can go over 120mph made after 2002?
seriously?
Well, its nice to see that there are others whom also know that TOYotas..
..suck. quite simply put :doubt: i wish i could muster up some more reasoning other than that they discontinue any sort of 'cool' car (supra) in favor of the boring and lame in scary numbers.
Toyota's don't suck because they don't have a sports car in the line up... not really justification for anything really. They just tend to lack the enthusiasts angle... although that is changing with the Lexus LF-A and the FT-86 RWD coupe (and a new CEO). Toyota is still up on the top for reliability, resale and making solid point A to B cars. I ended up with my Corolla because of my long legs and the other small cars not fitting properly (not the Civic, Mazda3 or Sentra - Lancer was ok... but I didn't like it for other reasons). Plus the 2.4L in my car has great torque and I enjoy driving it most of the time.
-
Seriously, "cool" cars might be, well, cool, but they're kind of a waste for driving back and forth to work every day. When money gets tighter, people want a reliable car that's not going to have high maintenance costs, and from what I understand, Toyota excels at making that type of vehicle.
-
It's what they're built on.
The reason they aren't making a big deal of this is because it would damage that reputation. The fact of the matter is that less than 1% of their products have actually had this go wrong. They're not going to throw the company off a bridge for what, in they're eyes, is a minor, fixable problem.
-
:wtf: there's a toyota that can go over 120mph made after 2002?
seriously?
Well, its nice to see that there are others whom also know that TOYotas..
..suck. quite simply put :doubt: i wish i could muster up some more reasoning other than that they discontinue any sort of 'cool' car (supra) in favor of the boring and lame in scary numbers.
Toyota's don't suck because they don't have a sports car in the line up... not really justification for anything really. They just tend to lack the enthusiasts angle... although that is changing with the Lexus LF-A and the FT-86 RWD coupe (and a new CEO). Toyota is still up on the top for reliability, resale and making solid point A to B cars. I ended up with my Corolla because of my long legs and the other small cars not fitting properly (not the Civic, Mazda3 or Sentra - Lancer was ok... but I didn't like it for other reasons). Plus the 2.4L in my car has great torque and I enjoy driving it most of the time.
solid point A to B cars are IMO are not as 'fun' as that old car you had, with its 'quirks' and which you almost feel 'connected' to. if it work perfectly all the time, where's the fun?
And yes, i had a transmission break down and wait 4 hours for a tow, but i feel richer from the experience.
I don't care, if you have the reputation of being solid, reliable, strong resale (boring), and also not known to be much fun, then i simply don't like you.
I too have long legs, and i seriously hope i don't need to buy a corolla, ever.
i'd much rather pay the gas and extra expense associated with, say, an 80's Crown Victoria, or something.
WAIT... i sat in corollas at autoshow (for the lulz), and they actually are almost dangerous for me given my foot size, in that it is a little difficult to go from the accelerator to the break (but, to be fair, its only 1/2 as bad as many of the 'new' GM products, but i like ford anyways, so :P)
-
4WD 5-speed standard Tundra in a snow storm is a bundle of fun :D
-
Plus the 2.4L in my car has great torque and I enjoy driving it most of the time.
Wait, you (seriously!) have a Corolla with a 2.4 L engine? I didn't even know it was possible to fit such motors in that chassis. Corollas here are around 1.3-1.6 litre range.
The only good thing from automatic that I have found out is exactly the congested traffic driving. Especially when starting uphill. Though some manual cars also have hill holder to stop moving backwards when starting uphill - this will certainly cause hilarity when one gets used to that property and then drives a car which doesn't have one...
However, I especially don't like automatic gears when driving on icy or snowy road.
-
I have only ever used automatic transmissions. I can imagine some advantages to a manual, but it would probably just be a hassle for typical commuting in traffic. The less work I need to do while driving, the better.
Also, automatics are just mechanically cooler. Anyone who has built both types of transmissions out of Lego would agree. :D
-
...had a transmission break down ... richer from the experience....
Nah man, transmissions are expensive. ;) :p
-
...had a transmission break down ... richer from the experience....
Nah man, transmissions are expensive. ;) :p
under warranty, fortunately.
-
And yes, i had a transmission break down and wait 4 hours for a tow, but i feel richer from the experience.
This, highly likely, depends on if the surrounding environment was around -40 degrees of Celsius...
-
Because in a proper car you can push the clutch down and set gear to neutral.
I kind of question how to do this in some of those semi-automatic boxes... like DSG/Ferrari F1 or similar... (didn't really read the whole thread though.)
Then again I'm not fortunate enough for a personal vehicle so don't hurt me >_<
And on the LF-A... I kinda liked the styling of the 2007 car more than the current one, and it's limited production which kinda puts a =\ to things... but that's not relevant to the topic...
-
I think there has to be a way to quickly switch to neutral in order to regain control of the car if it starts sliding.
-
Every Automatic Transmission that I've ever driven has a neutral setting in between reverse and the forward gears. And I know it works at speed because I accidentally shifted it when I was 4 years old, thought my dad was gonna kill me acutally.
-
Plus the 2.4L in my car has great torque and I enjoy driving it most of the time.
Wait, you (seriously!) have a Corolla with a 2.4 L engine? I didn't even know it was possible to fit such motors in that chassis. Corollas here are around 1.3-1.6 litre range.
The only good thing from automatic that I have found out is exactly the congested traffic driving. Especially when starting uphill. Though some manual cars also have hill holder to stop moving backwards when starting uphill - this will certainly cause hilarity when one gets used to that property and then drives a car which doesn't have one...
However, I especially don't like automatic gears when driving on icy or snowy road.
Starting in 2009 there are two engines in all North American Corolla's. A new 1.8L engine making 132 hp and a 2.4L engine sourced from the Camry which makes 158 hp. The 2.4L goes in the XRS sport model ... its not exactly comparable to a Civic Si but its sort of in the range of a Mazda3 GT. The chasis isn't as good, the ride is a bit harsh over some surfaces, but its a fairly fun car to drive and a bit better suited to my size. Plus the price wasn't bad and the car is made by Canadians so it all sort of worked out for me.
-
:bump:
New info: Australian's cruise control runaway car escape (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8417093.stm)
-
Necropost & 404
-
Well, since's it's already been necroed...
while the brake has little effect, as the car continues to accelerate with the brake pressed.
This is impossible. The brakes of a modern car can provide much greater stopping power than the engine can provide acceleration. If you were to hold both the brake and accelerator to the floor, you would do nothing but spin your wheels, rev your engine, and wreck your transmission (if you suddenly let go of the brakes/dump the clutch) and possibly your tires. A car cannot accelerate with the brake floored unless it is hydroplaning or otherwise experiencing catastrophic traction loss, in which case the gas won't work either. Even if the power brakes fail the brakes will still work; you will have to push hard, but they will work.
:wtf: there's a toyota that can go over 120mph made after 2002?
seriously?
Well, its nice to see that there are others whom also know that TOYotas..
..suck. quite simply put :doubt: i wish i could muster up some more reasoning other than that they discontinue any sort of 'cool' car (supra) in favor of the boring and lame in scary numbers.
Have you ever seen a Toyota Avalon? Those things are pretty big, and for a family car, pretty fast, with 260 horsepower.
-
Well wtf, they killed that vid.
Anyhow, this Australian was driving a Ford pick-up truck on the highway, when his cruise control broke down. So he was stuck speeding, brakes didn't work. Called his car dealer, who thought he was driving drunk. Then called the police, who scrambled to escort him through the traffic. Eventually, after an hour or so, he managed to steer off the road and used his handbrake to stop.
-
This is impossible. The brakes of a modern car can provide much greater stopping power than the engine can provide acceleration. If you were to hold both the brake and accelerator to the floor, you would do nothing but spin your wheels, rev your engine, and wreck your transmission (if you suddenly let go of the brakes/dump the clutch) and possibly your tires. A car cannot accelerate with the brake floored unless it is hydroplaning or otherwise experiencing catastrophic traction loss, in which case the gas won't work either. Even if the power brakes fail the brakes will still work; you will have to push hard, but they will work.
Not true. Brakes overheat; you can restrain acceleration, for a period, but you can't stop it indefinitely.
-
Okay, so here (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/bizarre&id=7175885) and here (http://itn.co.uk/b374ea0bee8bdd231fe5a1d5b9ffa926.html). No idea why BBC removed it.
-
This is impossible. The brakes of a modern car can provide much greater stopping power than the engine can provide acceleration. If you were to hold both the brake and accelerator to the floor, you would do nothing but spin your wheels, rev your engine, and wreck your transmission (if you suddenly let go of the brakes/dump the clutch) and possibly your tires. A car cannot accelerate with the brake floored unless it is hydroplaning or otherwise experiencing catastrophic traction loss, in which case the gas won't work either. Even if the power brakes fail the brakes will still work; you will have to push hard, but they will work.
Not true. Brakes overheat; you can restrain acceleration, for a period, but you can't stop it indefinitely.
You have ample time to put the car in neutral or kill the ignition before the brakes fade. But regardless, the car not responding to the brakes immediately is impossible. Brakes will take some time to fade, more than enough time to stop the car. Modern brakes on a small car also have much less fade than larger cars or cars with drum brakes.
-
Problem is it's all electrically controlled. I've never tried but I'd bet it's impossible to shut down the engine in a modern "push button-start" car at speed. It's not like pulling the key out of a proper car.
n/t: I could rant about "keyless entry" and why it's 100% pointless but I can't really be bothered. I would add I managed to leave a customer's Jag XF running in the carpark when it didn't respond to my pushing engine-stop and walking about 20ft away with the key...
-
An update on this issue that people may find interesting.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-avalon-displays-unintended-acceleration-without-floor-mat.html
The person who brought their car in was definitely doing a great service for everyone with a Toyota. Hopefully this doesn't happen to too many more people and they can figure out what the bug is.
-
Hmm... I wonder why they electronisized the pedals in the first place. They worked fine mechaniccly in the past. What is the advantage over mechanical ones?
-
Aaaaand Toyota acknowledged. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8487984.stm
-
I thought that when I heard that Toyota had suspended sales (or something to that tone, I don't remember exactly what they said, but it was when the stock market stuff was up).
-
Sales and production is suspended and apparently recalls are in the works. My car is on the list and I will be taking it in as soon as it makes sense to do so.
-
Aaaaand Toyota acknowledged. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8487984.stm
That says pedals, and it doesn't mention Avalon. Which would mean that if the problem is indeed in the computerization, that they have failed to address the problem.
Also they say in the article they were not aware of any accidents related to it... so either it's not the same thing, or the guy who said that is kept out of the loop, or is doing some serious ass-covering.
-
Toyota has issued some advice regarding what to do if your accelerator becomes stuck. I should say that the audio accompanying the video in this link is of a 911 call which had a lethal outcome, so some people might find it harrowing.
http://www.neatorama.com/2010/01/31/what-to-do-if-your-vehicles-accelerator-is-stuck/ (http://www.neatorama.com/2010/01/31/what-to-do-if-your-vehicles-accelerator-is-stuck/)
More advice for dealing with unintended acceleration (also linked in the article above), together with some braking test results: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how_to_deal_with_unintended_acceleration-tech_dept)