Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: FUBAR-BDHR on November 12, 2009, 02:16:22 pm
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Can't believe no one has posted this yet:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/11/12/cnet.xbox.live.ban/index.html
Yea lets ban them from ever using the system so they will pirate all games and have no reason to buy any now. How stupid is Microsoft? Anyone see networks to replace live coming down the road. They would already have a million customers.
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I noticed in that report the MS guy talked about people who are poor sports and ruin the games for others being banned as well. I'm wondering how many Halo 3 players got hit with the banhammer.
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I don't have anything against preventing piracy. The problem is, it prevents people for doing whatever they want with the hardware they have bought. It's like buying a computer and not being able to install another OS on it or whatever.
When they say "Microsoft has banned as many as a million players from Xbox Live for altering their consoles in order to play pirated versions of games.", I'm pretty sure they have no way of knowing if the individual altered his/her console in order to play pirated games or just to run alternate software.
It also appears that modification is prohibited by the TOU : "All consumers should know that piracy is illegal and modifying their Xbox 360 console violates the Xbox Live terms of use, will void their warranty and result in a ban from Xbox Live."
If people want to use MS's service, they have to respect it, whether they like it or not. Now I don't say that this TOU is a good thing, but people shouldn't have expected any other behavior from Microsoft. They have every right to do so as it is explicitly written. Now is it a good idea of doing so? Not my department, I don't know the numbers. But I doubt it.
Of course there's a problem of game piracy here, but people do not modify console necessarily to play pirated games. They can do it to run unofficial or alternative software on the computer. Because let's face it, a Xbox is basically a computer stuck in a beautiful casing. And a very restrictive TOU. If you want to do whatever you want with a machine, well the only choice you have is to buy yourself a "real" computer and stay away from gaming consoles. But from the looks of thing, we won't have the rights to do whatever we want on any hardware if this trend continues...
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Reading some of the comments it seems they just didn't ban people using pirated software but anyone with a modded system. So if your breaks down and you fix it yourself you got banned. Also there are reports of people getting kicked for playing purchased copies of COD MW2 because the stores sold them before the release date not because they are pirated.
Glad I will never own a console.
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I think that the TOU covers any form of modification, as it doesn't mention anything like "modded-for-playing-pirated-games Xbox" (and I wonder if it's possible to discern both anyway). But it sure breaks the warranty. They cannot cover the mistakes of people who are doing the modifications wrong, especially if it concerns hardware.
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What are you supposed to do when they are out of warranty? I've never looked at an x-box but I have fixed 2 or 3 PS2 systems. Sony wanted over 80 dollars for a CD drive. I was able to buy the part and fix it for about 20. In one case I took 2 broken systems and made one working system. Cost 1 broken system.
I don't think MS should have the right to ban you from working on your own paid for equipment. Wonder how that TOU would hold up in a court.
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I don't think MS should have the right to ban you from working on your own paid for equipment. Wonder how that TOU would hold up in a court.
License agreements are in general not legally binding, but the odds are pretty good they'd win this one. Live is their service, they have a right to distribute it in whatever manner they deem fit.
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I don't think MS should have the right to ban you from working on your own paid for equipment. Wonder how that TOU would hold up in a court.
Neither do I, honestly. If I pay 400$ for a piece of hardware, I better have the rights to do whatever I want with it. But when it comes to services, MS pretty much have the right to do whatever they want and keep whoever they want online. How would it hold up in court? "Users have every right to modify their consoles. They are just no longer entitled yo use our services and warranties."
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As most people have noted, there's nothing stopping Microsoft from doing this, nor is there anything inherently wrong with it. It's just a suicidal business decision. It's kind of like how Volition could have sued every single person who pirated FS2 when it wasn't available on the market. Sure, you can do it, its just incredibly f*cking stupid.
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As most people have noted, there's nothing stopping Microsoft from doing this, nor is there anything inherently wrong with it. It's just a suicidal business decision. It's kind of like how Volition could have sued every single person who pirated FS2 when it wasn't available on the market. Sure, you can do it, its just incredibly f*cking stupid.
I don't see what's so suicidal about it. It's written loud and clear in the TOU that MS reserves the right to boot people from Live who have modded their consoles. These people did, and voila. Like Pyro MX said, you're perfectly free to do any modding to the system you want...but MS doesn't have some moral obligation to allow your modded console onto their offered service, particularly when said modding allows you to rip them off. It's the consequence you accept. I can't say I have any sympathy for anyone who got booted over this.
And honestly, I don't see how limits on modding should dissuade anyone from owning a console. What, were you planning to attack the thing with a soldering iron? :p
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Well, the only platform is a selling point of the console. Except if you're on the Wii, maybe.
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It's written loud and clear in the TOU that MS reserves the right to boot people from Live who have modded their consoles. These people did, and voila. Like Pyro MX said, you're perfectly free to do any modding to the system you want...but MS doesn't have some moral obligation to allow your modded console onto their offered service, particularly when said modding allows you to rip them off. It's the consequence you accept. I can't say I have any sympathy for anyone who got booted over this.
I didn't say anything about morals, did I? Its a suicidal business decision. I don't care who should have done what - Microsoft just declared war on one million of its customers. This is not going to end well.
EDIT: And in case anyone thinks I'm vastly exaggerating what Microsoft is trying to do, again, I'm not saying that Microsoft was TRYING to declare war on one million of its users... but the users have different ideas.
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I dunno. I think it'll probably end well for Microsoft - i.e. their sales won't be seriously impacted.
I think they're probably doing the best possible thing for the users of the service. Modding is a force for good, but it can also be a force for tremendous, tremendous irritation.
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Remember there are already companies out there that hate microsoft. I could see a move by Google or Mozilla or Sun to put up a network just to pull users over away from MSN or IE, or Office.
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Huh? But how does that relate to Xbox Live usage? Non-modded consoles are by definition locked to a single network.
Unless I'm missing something obvious here,
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As most people have noted, there's nothing stopping Microsoft from doing this, nor is there anything inherently wrong with it. It's just a suicidal business decision. It's kind of like how Volition could have sued every single person who pirated FS2 when it wasn't available on the market. Sure, you can do it, its just incredibly f*cking stupid.
+1
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But why? Much as I like creativity and open hardware, what do they actually lose?
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All those folks they banned?
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I must state that support and friendliness goes a long way for a company... even if the user is in the wrong.
I think of Graphic Simulations, who made the F/A-18 Hornet simulator for the Mac. Worst support EVAR! I tried many times to get help with a few problems for programs which were very much legally obtained, but despite multiple emails, I never got a word. I still liked the company for its products, but I was also very much disenfranchised with the organization. And, I'm not the only one.
This is not comparable to the Microsoft incident: I did absolutely nothing wrong. Even still, Microsoft doing this to their user base will have repurcussions for them, even if it ultimately doesn't do too much harm to the company.
Still, I'm not sure what the best route of action for dealing with this kind of thing is...
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Huh? But how does that relate to Xbox Live usage? Non-modded consoles are by definition locked to a single network.
And they just banned everyone with a modded console. So if someone were to come along with a network that they could work on they'd have a userbase of over 1 million users.
More importantly, with other networks available you'd get other people chipping their machines just to use them. And when MS responds in their typical manner by trying to introduce some bull**** to prevent modded machines working with Google Live or whatever that's when they get hit by an antitrust suit.
What happens now depends on how easy it is for someone else to come up with a new network. It might not be easy but ironically the people with the technical know-how to do it are going to be a disproportionately large number in the group MS have just kicked. Cause the hardwear hackers and tech geeks are exactly the people who first chipped their machines. :D
The important thing is that MS may have just opened a very large chink in their armour surrounding XBOX/Live integration. Previously if you had one, you had to have the other. MS may have just short-sightedly ended that.
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Huh? But how does that relate to Xbox Live usage? Non-modded consoles are by definition locked to a single network.
Unless I'm missing something obvious here,
Well if they are already unlocked why not give them a way to change the network they connect to. Microsoft would have had to allow for that via updates of some kind. Heck it might be possible to change it using a CD of some kind to change the settings. 1 million users is a good start. More will want to join and Microsoft will be left with the option of letting them change networks or forcing live on them and looking like even bigger tyrants then they already are which would push even more people to modding their consoles to join other networks.
Locking one device to one network isn't going to work forever. Just ask Apple and AT&T.
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Dang it Kara don't post the same thoughs as me at the same time. :P
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Sorry FUBAR. :D
I don't think MS should have the right to ban you from working on your own paid for equipment. Wonder how that TOU would hold up in a court.
License agreements are in general not legally binding, but the odds are pretty good they'd win this one. Live is their service, they have a right to distribute it in whatever manner they deem fit.
Never having used an XBox I have no idea how the Gamertag sign up works. But if they take the money before the user connects they might have trouble defending this :
"When a Gamertag comes up as violating our policies for online behavior, the person who owns that Gamertag is punished by being banned from the service. Keep in mind, this isn't just a ban on a particular game. This is a ban on the Xbox Live service as a whole, so you won't be able to go online at all during your ban. Initially, you may be banned for a day, a week, or depending on severity, permanently! Kiss that $50 goodbye."
If they're taking $50 off people to use XBox Live and then closing up shop almost immediately they might have to justify why they aren't checking if they're going to let the person use their service before taking their money.
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Yeah, but alternative/free networks for the Xbox have have already been around for years. If one million people decide to switch over, that could be a problem for Microsoft, but I'm not sure I could definitively say that the cost there outweighs the benefits. Particularly since only a tiny fraction of that one million will probably make any kind of change.
I understand the predictions Kara and FUBAR are making, but I don't see data to support them yet. The iPhone is a runaway success and its business model (while distasteful) has worked.
'Suicidal business decision' is the statement I'm disagreeing with. I'm not certain we have any indications that a total collapse of the Xbox Live model would result from this recent wave of bannings.
The psychological question I'd ask is whether anyone would care if these bannings had been carried out in small batches over a period of years.
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I don't know enough about the iPhone to make much in the way of sensible comments about it but I can't see a motivational force as big as the XBox's "Stick this chip in your machine and you can play pirated games online for free!"
Until now there simply hasn't been much reason to switch from XBox Live. Sure the $50 was a lot of money but the free networks aren't worth joining cause no one plays on them. Now there is a reason to use them. While I don't doubt that MS will still keep making money on the XBox this decision could very easily result in them making less. They've actually made it attractive to join alternative networks. And in business it's never a good idea to basically hand 1/20th of your market over to your direct competitors in one move.
As for what the effect of doing it slowly would be, that would definitely have been a smarter choice. Dumping 1 million of their more tech savvy users on the same day is a bad idea for them.
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I feel like I need more data on any of these topics before commenting further.
At the moment, however, this decision is one I'm willing to cautiously applaud. Mod chips were a big problem for the, er, 'real' users in the past, at least in terms of running into jackasses with flying Warthogs and submachine guns that fired plasma grenades.
I doubt Microsoft will face 'suicidal' or particularly destructive backlash, and it seems like banning users for violating the TOU is well within their rights. The creation of a shadow Live would be an interesting phenomenon, but my intuition (unreliable, yes) does not suggest that it would be a major threat to Microsoft's operation.
Part of my caution also stems from the fact that this issue seems ideologically and politically sensitive, which means people have probably been through polarization and attitude inoculation already.
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Well that's the thing, I'm not saying this is definitely going to be a bad decision. All MS have done is opened a door. It remains to be seen if anyone walks though it.
I can very easily see MS having to climb down over this issue if anyone does come up with an alternative though.
Besides even if it's not a major threat, I still like the idea of a Mozilla to Live's IE springing up.
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This isn't one free browser versus another, though...it's the sole official multiplayer/networking/social channel of the console, with who knows how many features at this point, versus some fly-by-night applications that enable you to play online with a few friends if you're lucky. It's where all of the players all, where you earn achievements, where you download patches and DLC for the games you own, where where you can view titles from Netflix, where you do everything Everyone I know of who's owned an XBox/360 for some time generally speaks highly of Live's feature set. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see the vast majority of the banned users show up again in the near future with new accounts on unmodded consoles. They really don't have any other practical recourse if they're at all interested in the online side of the 360.
And let's not forget that these people were modifying their boxes to circumvent DRC for the douchebag purpose of pirating an unreleased game. They ain't getting any sympathy from me. :p
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It's also important to note that Microsoft maybe did so in response to 3rd party queries :
InformationWeek speculated that because pirated versions of the game appeared on various sharing sites in advance of the release, the game's developer may have exhorted Microsoft to enact the bans.
Either way, I have yet to see a good anti-piracy solution here. Locking'em out of the network probably won't stop people from pirating copies of the games. Maybe discourage some...
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Wait so by doing this Mickysoft is not only slashing their own throats but hurting companies like netflix that just lost a million potential customers from the service?
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You have yet to prove they've cut their own throat. Your righteous indignation is, simply put, amusing. They were completely within their rights to do what they have done.
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No one here is saying that Microsoft didn't have the right to do this. What we are saying is that Microsoft just pissed off one million customers by banning them from Xbox Live.
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But that on its own doesn't mean much. I'm sure people are pissed off when they get tossed in jail, for instance.
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But how many of those customers will keep buying games for the 360, and how many will defect to the PS3?
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Why is that relevant? :wtf:
Are you suggesting that the 360's marketing tactic should be to permit game piracy and terms of use violations?
I'm fairly certain the 'console war' as framed in that question is a myth anyway.
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None. The people who are chipping up their boxes most likely already own both.
And let's face it, kids. One million is not actually a huge portion of the Live userbase by now.
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I hear it's about 5%. No idea how to confirm that.
Spoke too soon. Google turned up 20 million subscribes as of May. So 5% would be a good guess.
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Pretty minimal, then.
Given the number of utter pricks on Live, I doubt they'll be missed.
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The thing is, MS is actually going to be selling a lot of new consoles this way. A lot of modders still like to play on LIVE, so they're gonna go off and buy a LIVE-capable console. I've seen a ton of people on other forums doing exactly that. And it works since when a 360 is banned, in most cases it's the console that's revoked and not the LIVE GamerTag. So you move it over to a new console and you're free to play by the rules this time or try modding that one instead
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And it works since when a 360 is banned, in most cases it's the console that's revoked and not the LIVE GamerTag.
Citation needed. Personal experience says its the tag.
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they can probably do it both ways.
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And it works since when a 360 is banned, in most cases it's the console that's revoked and not the LIVE GamerTag.
Citation needed. Personal experience says its the tag.
You've been banned?
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they can probably do it both ways.
I'm sure they do.
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You've been banned?
Friend has had three tags banned, all for using a modded XBox. XBox still continues to function on Live.
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And it works since when a 360 is banned, in most cases it's the console that's revoked and not the LIVE GamerTag.
Citation needed. Personal experience says its the tag.
I don't have a 360, myself, but I go to a site where a lot of people have modded ones and that's what they've been reporting over and over again. Time for some copy-paste magic:
>> Kushan wrote a nice little article on #FW@EFnet summarizing all kinda info we have about the current (still ongoing) Console Live Ban Wave:
- What does this mean for you and what can you do about it?
Firstly, and most obviously, you cannot connect to Xbox Live on this console any more. This means no more game updates (aka title updates), XBLA games, marketplace content, netflix/sky player and so on. There is no way around this, all online capabilities are now disabled PERMANENTLY.
In all likelihood, your gamertag has NOT BEEN BANNED. When your gamertag gets banned, Microsoft sends you an email detailing why, if you have not recieved this email then your profile should be ok, to a certain extent.
Hard Drive installs are now disabled on the banned console. This means any disk-based games you have will no longer play off of the hard drive. If you attempt to play a game, it will tell you that it was installed on a different 360 and needs to be deleted/installed again. When you delete the game and attempt to install it, you are given a message telling you that it is not supported. There is no way to fix this, that functionality is simply gone from the banned 360.
The hard drive itself is left untouched - you can place it in another 360, even an unbanned one, and it will still work just fine. You do NOT need to reformat it to regain any kind of functionality. Any installed games will need to be reinstalled for the console you want to play them on. This is normal behaviour and happens when swapping HDDs on unbanned/legit 360's.
Windows Media Centre functionality is disabled. It is still possible to stream video/music content via the video library.
Your Gamertag may be corrupted. This does not mean your gamertag has been banned, you can recover it using any live-capable 360, however ANY ACHIVEMENTS YOU HAVE EARNED SINCE BEING BANNED WILL BE LOST. Your gamertag will be corrupted EVERY SINGLE TIME it is used on a banned console. This means you cannot use your banned console to play backups offline just to get achievements - it wont work, the second you put your profile back on a good 360, it will be corrupted and all progress lost. There is no way around this.
The same applies to game saves - if you access a game save on a banned 360, it too will be corrupted when accessed on a legit/unbanned 360! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! There is no way around this, either.
Your XBLA games and DLC will still be valid, however to play them on a different 360 you will need to be signed into Xbox Live. This is normal behaviour on unbanned/legit 360's as well. They may be corrupted and have to be re-downloaded if you attempt to access them on a banned 360. You can transfer all of your downloaded content to a new 360 here: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/xbox360/licensemigration/default.htm however note that you can only do it once every 12 months.
So, in summary:
Your Banned 360:
* Cannot go on Xbox Live
* Cannot install games to the HDD
* Cannot use Windows Media Centre extender
* Cannot be used to get achievements from backups without corrupting your profile
You cannot do anything about this, short of buying a new 360.
There may be more functionality disabled than mentioned here, things are still being discovered.
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And let's not forget that these people were modifying their boxes to circumvent DRC for the douchebag purpose of pirating an unreleased game. They ain't getting any sympathy from me. :p
Actually, let's forget that. Cause it's a complete over generalisation.
From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8356621.stm
"We believe that even one modified console on the system is one too many".
You want to try to make the case that the only reason people mod consoles is to play pirated games? Let alone to play unreleased game?
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ok, here's a thought for you, how long until Microsoft starts using a software version to disable your windows if its non legit or you are running pirate Microsoft games, possibly flash the hard drive to prevent future installs working but allow say Linux to be installed.
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And it works since when a 360 is banned, in most cases it's the console that's revoked and not the LIVE GamerTag.
Citation needed. Personal experience says its the tag.
You've been banned?
Mine was. I modded the dvd drive firmware to work on regular discs. Turned on my box (a first series mind you, i expected it to redring years ago, and its connection to controllers was getting flakey) to find it banned. Went out and bought an elite as an upgrade, threw my hard drive into it (because the elites dont come with the teansfer cable, so i ebayed one), and was back on live playing MW2 in a matter of minutes. Clearly they were more concerned with the modded oxes, not the gamertags.
Oddly enough I only played 2 burned games, which I probably would have just rented if i hadnt been able to, so its not like M$ missed out on any profit, and I've actually purchised one of the sequels as a result.
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Oh. Beware Windows users! You'll get banned from the internets if you use Firefox.
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I'm really behind the times, I don't even have an x-box :(
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I'm really behind the times, I don't even have an x-box :(
Good. That makes two of us. :D
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It would be ever so lovely if
blogger rejects journalists would stop toting that tired bull**** 'piracy losses' figure. Well, a man can dream. :/
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"We believe that even one modified console on the system is one too many".
You want to try to make the case that the only reason people mod consoles is to play pirated games? Let alone to play unreleased game?
No, I'm sure it's not the only reason, but you can't argue that it's likely the most pressing reason. And again, why they modded it doesn't really matter. Microsoft's TOU states up-front that modded consoles can be booted from Live. They run the service, so they have every right to do that. You're still completely free to mod your 360, provided you don't mind not being able to access Live. It seems simple enough to me.
Oh, and I love the "one person's reaction" article that's linked to what you wrote. "Yes, I'm very shocked by getting cut off like this. Oh, and I've copied 30 or 40 games." :lol:
And seriously, people, this has nothing to do with Windows whatsoever. Let's limit the hyperbole, shall we?
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I don't have a problem with expulsion from X-Box live, it's their service and they can ban who they like, the crippling of the Hardware, however, concerns me, because it is a physical good that you have already paid for, it's your property, and the fact that Microsoft think they can disable it with impunity, and then expect any innocent parties to prove they are inncocent is, to my mind, bordering on vandalism, they have deliberately damaged something that was the bought and paid for property of their customer.
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It's not disabled, though. The modded console can still play games just fine offline, and I'd imagine it could still connect to one of those "alternative networks" that were mentioned earlier. It just can't connect to Live and reap the benefits of doing so.
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From what I'm reading here, it also prevents you from installing any games to the HDD itself?
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Yeah, that does sound pretty troubling...
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That it does. It also will mess up save and achievements made after the time of the banning. That really is the part about the whole thing that's pretty messed up.
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From what I'm reading here, it also prevents you from installing any games to the HDD itself?
WHAT!
That's messed up!
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It is? Who installs games to the HDD anyway...?
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It is? Who installs games to the HDD anyway...?
People who want shorter load times?
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It is? Who installs games to the HDD anyway...?
it doesn't matter. If I bought the console, I should be ale to do whatever the heck I want with it.
its mine.
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But the hard drive install capability was patched in via Live. One could argue that you bought the hardware, but that this particular capability is part of a suite of features that fall under the umbrella of the Live service.
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Well, I'm not exactly well-versed in X-Box tech, so I suppose that is a mitigating circumstance if an out-of-the-box system didn't have that functionality either.
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I think I've heard of only one game that flat-out required a HD install, and many people were rather up-in-arms over that requirement. It's an option for many games to theoretically decrease load times, but it's certainly not required.
And from what I understood from reading that one post, the save games corruption would occur if you attempted to migrate them to another console, not if you continued loading them on the modded console itself.
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If I pay 400$ for a piece of hardware, I better have the rights to do whatever I want with it.
By that logic, if I buy a $400 gun, i should have the right to shoot it off wherever I want, right? :/
I disagree :) I'm no angel myself, but i think if you take the risk of modding your equipment, you can't expect Microsoft to re-write their TOU. As was mentioned, it's pretty clear in the TOU that they clicked 'accept' to.
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And looking at it from another angle, the vast majority of users aren't going to feel any need to modify their console in the first place. Newer games don't require you to run out and buy more RAM or a new video card, you don't have to concern yourself with hardware/software incompatibilities, the only necessary firmware updates happen automatically...all you need to do is just pop in the game disk and start playing. In fact, those are the very reasons that so many people (myself included) enjoy gaming on consoles; there's no overhead at all to concern yourself with. From that perspective, any moves by Microsoft along these lines are going to affect just a small fraction of the total userbase; most 360 owners will presumably shrug their shoulders and keep on playing in peace.
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If I pay 400$ for a piece of hardware, I better have the rights to do whatever I want with it.
By that logic, if I buy a $400 gun, i should have the right to shoot it off wherever I want, right? :/
I was speaking more of computer hardware here - although you could say today everything is, to some extent, computer hardware. If I buy it, it's mine. And your analogy about guns, well guess what's it's built for? Pat pink ponies? You maybe not have the right to shoot anything though (although in some jurisdictions, you pretty have the right to, but that's another debate)... This has nothing to do with modifying whatever software and hardware there's in it.
The thing is, the trend is that now manufacturers lock down the hardware to dictate what is right for you and what is not. And if you get beyond these ever tightening strings, well they just pull the plug on your stuff. The difference between the gun and my computer is that I won't kill anybody by installing alternate software on it. There's nothing inherently wrong with doing it.
Then, you could say that people can program harmful software, or that I used these modifications to circumvent DRM or whatever security measures they put up. And while we're at it, I can burn CDs on my computer. That's probably wrong too, since people sometimes copy pirated versions of games. If we extend this long enough, we'll just end up naked in cages with nothing that could possibly harm the neighborhood, plugged to machines that will feed us so we don't have to move. You won't solve the problems by tying everyone down to the ground and doing the choices for them. I don't know what the solution is, but by just tightening the grip, you'll just annoy people more.
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But they don't pull the plug on your machine - you can still use it all you like. You just can't use Xbox Live.
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No they don't, as I said, it's a trend. I had a wrong choice of word here for "pulling the plug". It's true that they don't actually shoot down your computer. But let's take the example of the iPhone. Apple constantly release patches to prevent you from using a jailbroken iPhone properly. My friend has one, and it's a big mess on every update. And every time, he could brick the phone. For the Wii? Nintendo released a patch to prevent users from running homebrew channels (4.2 patch). Guess what? They released an unstable bootloader that caused some Wiis to brick. No, they don't directly pull the plug. But they can sure make your life a lot tougher by trying by any means to make you revert back to the way they'd like it to be. So better stay between the fences people!
I don't have anything about warranty breaks - they can't cover every user's mistake while tampering with the hardware or software. However, restraining the service or doing everything in their power just because you want to use alternate software to complete your tasks, that's wrong, even if it's written in a TOU. Right now it mostly applies to mobile devices or consoles. But nothing says it'll someday come to home computers. You cannot just lock every damn thing down and say you have solved the problem. People will still want and pirate stuff. And the only ones who will be penalized are those who don't do anything wrong with their hardware.
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It is? Who installs games to the HDD anyway...?
People who want shorter load times?
IIRC it is supposedly quieter running it off the box then a CD.
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No, I'm sure it's not the only reason, but you can't argue that it's likely the most pressing reason. And again, why they modded it doesn't really matter. Microsoft's TOU states up-front that modded consoles can be booted from Live. They run the service, so they have every right to do that. You're still completely free to mod your 360, provided you don't mind not being able to access Live. It seems simple enough to me.
I'm not disputing that MS have the right to kick people off XBox Live. I'm disputing whether it was a sensible decision to exercise that right.
As I've said earlier this could turn out to be a very short-sighted decision on their part.
And why they modded the console does matter if you're going to claim that we should feel no sympathy for them cause they are pirates. Which is exactly what you said they were.
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To be honest, I don't have any sympathy for them because they modded their consoles period, while knowing full well what that could entail. If MS pulled this stunt without ever addressing the modding issue previously, I'd be jumping all over them, but as it apparently was in black-and-white the whole time, it's very much an at-your-own-risk scenario. Sucks for them that MS finally decided to take action now, but they're the ones who took that action in the first place.
And like I said before, if these people want to keep playing multiplayer in any sort of significant numbers, or earning achievements, or doing any of the other tasks that Live allows, they're going to have to get another console, which I can see many of them doing. Maybe there will be some holdouts, but not in numbers to make MS bat an eye. That other 95% of 360 owners who weren't banned won't be affected either way, since they presumably don't care about modding anyway.
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To be honest, I don't have any sympathy for them because they modded their consoles period, while knowing full well what that could entail. If MS pulled this stunt without ever addressing the modding issue previously, I'd be jumping all over them, but as it apparently was in black-and-white the whole time, it's very much an at-your-own-risk scenario. Sucks for them that MS finally decided to take action now, but they're the ones who took that action in the first place.
Now if you put it that way, that's fine. I just didn't like the assumption that only pirates had been banned.
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Yeah, I didn't intend to give that impression. I know there are other uses for modded consoles than playing pirated games, even though I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who do go through that bother will probably use it for that end at least a bit.
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this doesnt bother me since i think consoles suck. what bothers me is the anti-consumer trends that seem to be everywhere in the software industry these days all in the name of anti-piracy. and what bothers me even more is that so many users accept this. i probably spend more on software than i should, even when i pirate some software (and when i do its usually beyond its support life and therefore is fair game). if i were to guess id say i spend between 1 and 2 k a year on software and even more on hardware to run said software. only for that software to be full of annoyances and inefficiencies in a vain attempt to stop piracy. what really bugs me is when software has bogus requirements, such as always needing a disc to play a game that has been fully installed to the hd or requiring an internet connection for single player games. then there are root kits and resident drm software. all to protect an overpriced product with roughly a year or two of usable shelf life before support for it is pulled and incompatibility issues present themselves. buying software is not a good investment. as several cd cases full of old and unplayable (at least not easily playable) games can attest.
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Remember there are already companies out there that hate microsoft. I could see a move by Google or Mozilla or Sun to put up a network just to pull users over away from MSN or IE, or Office.
They already have, for the most part. I'm using Firefox, Safari and Chrome across all my computers, and I'm using Adium. If it were more convenient, I would make the switch to GMail and OpenOffice.org too.
I'm waiting for Google to release Chrome for Mac OS X so that I can play Sunset Racer 2 with a bit more smoothness than Safari or Firefox. Chromium doesn't work, so I have to wait.
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I think you misunderstood the original post, Androgeos. He's referring to Xbox Live competition.
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I'm not disputing that MS have the right to kick people off XBox Live. I'm disputing whether it was a sensible decision to exercise that right.
As I've said earlier this could turn out to be a very short-sighted decision on their part.
I expect they were appeasing third party publishers, and thereby protecting their market share.
MS doesn't care if you use your X360 to play old NES games or whatever. They do care if EA or whoever says, 'do something about this piracy **** or we stop making exclusive titles for your console'.
If MS thought they could increase their market share by ignoring--or encouraging--the modding of consoles, they'd do that. For whatever reason, they don't think so. I expect the reason is pressure from other companies whose actions could affect their market share, but I might very well be wrong.
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The other companies can file lawsuits against Microsoft for failing to comply with their wishes, right?
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The other companies can file lawsuits against Microsoft for failing to comply with their wishes, right?
yes
1 failing to protect their intellectual property
2 damage to their profits
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MicroSoft had the choice:
1. Piss off a million people.
2. Cut off dozens of critical business partnerships.
3a. Be sued, then settle and piss off a million people.
3b. Be sued, then pay up to tens of millions of dollars in damages, and then piss off a million people.
3c. Be sued, then pay up to tens of millions of dollars in damages, and then lose dozens of critical business partnerships.
Obviously, the first option is the least severe.
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Well, they have their work cut out for them.
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You know what's the worstestest in the "fight against piracy"? That it DOESN'T ****ING WORK, crackers still rape all these DRMs and laugh their asses off. Anyway, the most ridiculous is keeping CD in drive all the time, and that TOO is because of the company's greed. CD is damaging itself in the drive, so yeah, it will cease to work someday, so there are chances you'll buy it again. (HELL I WON'T, gonna just dl from internets, i have the right to do so now). And then again: in the past, I used to make at least two save copies of every damn CD. What now? Now you friggin can't, cause it won't work without a crack. YAY.
And anyway, I as a honest customer, who's ALWAYS buying the games he plays, I, ziame, DON'T GIVE A **** about this whole piracy. NOT.MY.FAULT.WHY.PUNISHING.ME.
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Punishing you because punishing everyone just maybe might get the pirates.
And if they would stop pirating **** in the first place, I could just play my damn games and not worry about this BS.
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And if they would stop pirating **** in the first place, I could just play my damn games and not worry about this BS.
Do you really believe that?
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The other companies can file lawsuits against Microsoft for failing to comply with their wishes, right?
I'd highly doubt it, since it's not as though MS would be doing anything in breach of contract by not banning these users. What third-party developers could do, though, is send less exclusivity the 360's way, which would obviously be a Very Bad Thing from MS's standpoint.
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It would, considering that there are so many other video game consoles out there. I'm certain Microsoft wants to get a stable foothold on the console industry now, and then let their foothold go to hell like Hotmail.
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http://www.xbconnect.com/
that url seems pertinent to this discussion
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Yep, that's been around for quite a few years. Was the prime method of Halo 1 multiplayer back during the original Xbox era, as I recall.
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And if they would stop pirating **** in the first place, I could just play my damn games and not worry about this BS.
And due to human nature, that will never happen. Ever. And you can quote me on that.
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I assume that human nature revolves around greed, insecurity and stupidity then. :blah:
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I assume that human nature revolves around greed, insecurity and stupidity then. :blah:
Yep.
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XLink (http://teamxlink.co.uk/) is also a good alternative for original Xboxes. 'Wonder if they'll support the 360 someday.
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Was anyone here directly affected by this ban?
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This is all a load of balls
1) The cretins working at Microsoft are getting our attention with this. What’s that phrase "All publicity is good publicity". Any surprise this happens as Christmas gets closer?
2) DRM will never ever work, someone somewhere, will make it their personal challenge and joy out of life to try and break the DRM, its what some guys do when they cant seem to communicate with the other sex or their pornnet connection is down
3) You are only going to piss off honest people who buy games and feel like they are being accused of some wrong doing. Its like dating a fat girl, you may like her, but your friends would not.
4) We are only creating some entertaining reading material for them while they wank away the day smoking and drinking vendor-coffee on the bog of their offices
5) what we say or do, doesn’t really matter, and for all those who say they would boycott, protest, etc........ no you wont, a new game will arrive sooner or later and you will go out and buy it and forget all about your stand. I know it, you know, and Microsoft knows it. There may be a time when you cease any potential future attempts to deliver payment to such a company for
their services which on countless times have so pointedly and catastrophically failed to deliver the intended service. Let us not forget the problems with the Fallout 3 addons. And yes, I am aware that any such activity will be greeted initially with hilarity and disbelief quickly be replaced by derision, and even perhaps bemused
rage. But in time, another product will arrive and your principles are left on your Steam account as you download the latest title but still complain about the price and quality of the software.
6) I thought Apple were ****e, that they had won the cup of holy annoying and excrement of dead donkeys. But Microsoft really, truly is the champion. But I thinks it’s fair to say that most of us discovered to our considerable dissatisfaction and disappointment what a useless shower of bastards most corporations truly are.
7) Don’t forget this is the same company that brought us Vista, where most people may say that windows 98, outdated though it is, shone like brilliant stars
of success and hope, in the midst of Satan’s inadequate excuse of an operating system.
8) But to be fair, what is the alternative?
9) There will always, be pirates, hackers, critics, lawbreakers, monkey butlers, people trying to impose controls such as DRM. Why? Because it makes money. Someone out there is obviously making a lot of money from DRM and the like, promoting it as a better and safer way to stop piracy. Personally I thought the CD key that came with the game was enough and straight forward. These are probably them same people who believed that blank tapes would destroy the music industry in the 1980’s.
10) arse.
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ITT people don't read/understand the previous four pages.
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This is all a load of balls
1) The cretins working at Microsoft are getting our attention with this. What’s that phrase "All publicity is good publicity". Any surprise this happens as Christmas gets closer?
2) DRM will never ever work, someone somewhere, will make it their personal challenge and joy out of life to try and break the DRM, its what some guys do when they cant seem to communicate with the other sex or their pornnet connection is down
3) You are only going to piss off honest people who buy games and feel like they are being accused of some wrong doing. Its like dating a fat girl, you may like her, but your friends would not.
4) We are only creating some entertaining reading material for them while they wank away the day smoking and drinking vendor-coffee on the bog of their offices
5) what we say or do, doesn’t really matter, and for all those who say they would boycott, protest, etc........ no you wont, a new game will arrive sooner or later and you will go out and buy it and forget all about your stand. I know it, you know, and Microsoft knows it. There may be a time when you cease any potential future attempts to deliver payment to such a company for
their services which on countless times have so pointedly and catastrophically failed to deliver the intended service. Let us not forget the problems with the Fallout 3 addons. And yes, I am aware that any such activity will be greeted initially with hilarity and disbelief quickly be replaced by derision, and even perhaps bemused
rage. But in time, another product will arrive and your principles are left on your Steam account as you download the latest title but still complain about the price and quality of the software.
6) I thought Apple were ****e, that they had won the cup of holy annoying and excrement of dead donkeys. But Microsoft really, truly is the champion. But I thinks it’s fair to say that most of us discovered to our considerable dissatisfaction and disappointment what a useless shower of bastards most corporations truly are.
7) Don’t forget this is the same company that brought us Vista, where most people may say that windows 98, outdated though it is, shone like brilliant stars
of success and hope, in the midst of Satan’s inadequate excuse of an operating system.
8) But to be fair, what is the alternative?
9) There will always, be pirates, hackers, critics, lawbreakers, monkey butlers, people trying to impose controls such as DRM. Why? Because it makes money. Someone out there is obviously making a lot of money from DRM and the like, promoting it as a better and safer way to stop piracy. Personally I thought the CD key that came with the game was enough and straight forward. These are probably them same people who believed that blank tapes would destroy the music industry in the 1980’s.
10) arse.
Do you have a modded console?
If yes, sucks to be you, the TOU is there for a reason, and you voided any reason to be allowed on Live if you modded it.
If not, what the hell are you so pissed off about? This doesn't affect you IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.
Don’t forget this is the same company that brought us Vista
I think you'd find Vista works well enough, even *gasp* a GOOD operating system if you'd stop *****ing at it all the time.
There will always, be pirates, hackers, critics, lawbreakers, monkey butlers, people trying to impose controls such as DRM
I'd like to revisist this point, as it doesn't matter. Microsoft is obligated to try and reduce piracy by their partners, because if they don't it's the exact same thing as endorsing piracy. Which, no matter how impractical to enforce, is illegal.
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Do you have a modded console?
If yes, sucks to be you, the TOU is there for a reason, and you voided any reason to be allowed on Live if you modded it.
If not, what the hell are you so pissed off about? This doesn't affect you IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER.
So people should ignore anything that doesn't affect them directly?
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Ignoring perfectly-justified actions that don't affect me directly seems like a safe policy.
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*MEGA-SNIP*
"What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
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Ignoring perfectly-justified actions that don't affect me directly seems like a safe policy.
If you see actions as justified everyone else must?
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I don't see the point of the argument at this point. MicroSoft has made its business decision and it will suffer the consequences, whatever they'll be. It's probably going to be exactly the same as it always is; a resurgence of even bigger and better piracy.
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Ignoring perfectly-justified actions that don't affect me directly seems like a safe policy.
If you see actions as justified everyone else must?
If A is forbidden in writing with consequence B, and a user agrees to said writing, then commits A and suffers consequence B, the user has no recourse to complain about consequence B. This isn't about how any of us see it; it's a simple matter of consequences.
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*MEGA-SNIP*
"What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Your opinion really matters to me.
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*MEGA-SNIP*
"What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
Your opinion really matters to me.
My life has meaning, now! HUZZAH! :P
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Ironic sarcasm detected. Levels rising to dangerous concentrations. Flash-point imminent.
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Ignoring perfectly-justified actions that don't affect me directly seems like a safe policy.
If you see actions as justified everyone else must?
If A is forbidden in writing with consequence B, and a user agrees to said writing, then commits A and suffers consequence B, the user has no recourse to complain about consequence B. This isn't about how any of us see it; it's a simple matter of consequences.
Sorry, but I call bull****.
The terms of this so called "service" are mandatory enforced by a single party and are *non*-negotiable. Furthermore they have pretty much monopoly on the market.
What I dispute is not the legality but the morality of the whole affair. Just because the law allows a company to act in a way doesn't make it moral too. The whole idea of "idea ownership" and "lincenses" simply doesn't cut it with me. I don't dispute the right of a creator to profit from their creation, but subverting this idea and using it to create artificial monopolies and artificial scarcity by a company was never in the initial deal.
How does this relate to a "service" by a company? Said service is a de-facto monopoly and I wonder why antitrust lawsuit was never sacked on them. It's not the terms that infuriate me, but the fact that I'm told that I'm the one "opting" for it...
...there is no damn opting! It's the only choice, the platform and the network are closed and the owner could enforce whatever terms they wished. The fact that said terms go against fair use and classical ownership rights pertaining to physical objects is just icing on the cake.
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Maybe we're looking at this from completely different angles, but I don't even see how the term "monopoly" applies to this particular situation. Microsoft makes the Xbox 360 console specifically to work with content (i.e. games) created for the 360, just as every gaming console from the NES onwards has only worked by default with content meant specifically for it. Xbox Live is the service provided by Microsoft for its own specific hardware, just as the DS and Wii's matchmaking services are provided by Nintendo and Home (ha) is provided by Sony. It's literally part and parcel of the whole experience...if you buy an Xbox, you're also buying Live (or at least the free level of it). And no secret is made of that; in fact, it's one of the console's selling points. As such, Microsoft has the right legally, and I would suggest morally, to establish the terms and conditions for using Live. If all you were concerned about when purchasing a piece of gaming hardware was buying a completely-open system, you wouldn't be buying a console in the first place. From where I'm sitting, complaining about Xboxes having only Live available as a networking option by default is just like complaining about only being able to get Windows patches from Microsoft Update.
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The difference is you can still use your computer and use a different updater. Without Live, it's very tough to find an alternative, if it's even possible. Otherwise, you have a nearly useless hunk of plastic and silicon.
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The difference is you can still use your computer and use a different updater. Without Live, it's very tough to find an alternative, if it's even possible. Otherwise, you have a nearly useless hunk of plastic and silicon.
Again, this thing doesn't nerf the physical console itself, just its connection to Live. You can still play games offline to your heart's content on it.
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Exactly. You're not buying a gaming PC here, you're buying a console.
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The difference is you can still use your computer and use a different updater. Without Live, it's very tough to find an alternative, if it's even possible. Otherwise, you have a nearly useless hunk of plastic and silicon.
Again, this thing doesn't nerf the physical console itself, just its connection to Live. You can still play games offline to your heart's content on it.
For those who enjoy online games, this basically kills the appeal of the console.
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Well, um, exactly? :wtf:
If someone's cheating in a PC game, you ban them from your server. Why should Live be different?
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For those who enjoy online games, this basically kills the appeal of the console.
If you can't take pleasure in singleplayer games as well, I don't consider you much of a gamer to begin with. :p
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For those who enjoy online games, this basically kills the appeal of the console.
If you can't take pleasure in singleplayer games as well, I don't consider you much of a gamer to begin with. :p
What the hell would one be doing with games like Call of Duty (4) (Modern Warfare) (2), Halo (2) (3), etc. if the multiplayer service was removed?
Anyway, I'm not an XBOX owner, but virtually all of my friends are.
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If you want to play these games online, and if you're interested in the multiplayer service, then why the hell are you modding your console against the TOS?
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What the hell would one be doing with games like Call of Duty (4) (Modern Warfare) (2), Halo (2) (3), etc. if the multiplayer service was removed?
Anyway, I'm not an XBOX owner, but virtually all of my friends are.
In the case of all but MW2, playing the rather good singleplayer campaign.
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If you want to play these games online, and if you're interested in the multiplayer service, then why the hell are you modding your console against the TOS?
Seriously. The simple solution to all of this is to just not do it. Or, if you're going to do it, buy a spare Xbox and keep it clean for multiplayer purposes.
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Remember there are already companies out there that hate microsoft. I could see a move by Google or Mozilla or Sun to put up a network just to pull users over away from MSN or IE, or Office.
Google is as bad as Microsoft, maybe worse. They have a log of every single search you have ever made, what you searched for, and when you searched. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
Also Sun is already pulling users away from Office. They have a product called OpenOffice and it rocks. I have never seen a *.doc file that I couldn't open.
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Google is as bad as Microsoft, maybe worse. They have a log of every single search you have ever made, what you searched for, and when you searched. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
Also Sun is already pulling users away from Office. They have a product called OpenOffice.org and it rocks. I have never seen a *.doc file that I couldn't open.
Fixed. I know it's minor nitpicking on my part, but please get the name right if you think the product's good.