Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: FlayedOne on December 11, 2009, 06:49:55 pm
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Hello,
What changes to GTVA do you think are needed in order to be able to defend against Shivan menace in the post-FS2 period?
Here are my proposed changes:
First of all, GTVA needs to cut on destroyer losses. Since they introduced corvettes as a cheaper alternative, I belive that changes should go even further. Now those ships fulfill the following roles: Destroyers are command ships while providing anti-capital ship firepower and figher/bombers, while corvettes fulfill anti-fighter role as well as support firepower(judgeing by the fact that both Deimos and Sobek have slasher beams). IMO roles should be changed to destroyers being command ships, carriers and support ships, while corvettes should handle anti-figher and anti-capital ship roles. This would allow for lower loses among destroyers, because of two factors:
- they would only be required to participate directly in case of very big battles, where support-firepower would be needed
- even if they would be present on the battlefield, enemy would priortise destruction of corvettes giving them more chances to escape
Another advantage corvettes have over destroyers is speed and manouverability, that would be of great help in future confrontations with shivan forces, since GTVA does not stand a chance in a direct fight - guerilla tactics will be needed. This would of course require a development of new ships, and while we're at it, GTVA's R&D should definitely work on optimal hull shapes.
I'd base the new corvette over Deimos since it's a mighty fine one already. Here is a crude drawing of how I would do it ;) :
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/999/newcorvetteblueprints.png)
As you can see I used a new hull shape, that allows great AAAf and flak coverage. Here are the changes compared to Deimos:
-I exchanged one of it's Terran Slashing Beam for 2 AAAfs, because it seems to me like it's at worst an even trade when it comes to energy expenditure, and most probably should result in energy excess.
-I exchanged 3 Terran Slashing Beams for 3 Vasudan Light Beams, giving the corvette a respectable anti-capital ship firepower. Judging by damge values this exchange should result in excess energy.
-I exchanged piranha launchers for flaks, since they proved to be supperior.
I also hope that excess energy from those trades would be enough to allow this corvette to travel at 35 kps. This would get her on par with ICENI when it comes to speed, and allow outmanouvering of almost all enemy ships, which in turn is need in order to use those Vasudan Light Beams since they are all mounted on the front. AAAf and Flaks should make those corvettes plenty resilent to enemy figher and bomber attacks.
So, what changes to GTVA's doctrines, ships and the like do you think are necesarry?
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That's interesting.
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The most obvious necessary change is the GTVA needs to develop a means to eliminate a juggernaut, rapidly. Lots of people have posisted ways to do this from the ever-popular Giant Honkin' Flying Beam Cannon to the 120-tube Helios launching corvette. The final form of such a weapon is ultimately going to dictate the final form of GTVA doctrine.
Absent the means to deal with the juggernaut fleet, which is at the least several decades away, there is no real defense. The only option left is to locate entry points and collapse them. A more portable and more easily constructed means of collapsing nodes then tearing out the guts of an Orion and stuffing it full of Meson Bombs is neccessary. Realistically speaking I doubt they can get it down to smaller than a Deimos, but that should be enough. About twenty of these will be needed, one for each system and several backups. The GTVA will need to rapidly locate a Shivan entry point, blow it away with one of our hypothetical node-collapsing Demioseseses, and then mop up the stragglers. Speed and rapid deployment of combat assets from everywhere will have to be emphasized. If you can't bring everything, and I do mean everything, that can move and shoot to bear within a week, you should not expect to succeed. If you can't shut the door into the threatened system within two weeks, the battle is probably lost and you should blow the nodes out of that system and take the loss rather than lose everything.
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So basically Corvettes would be an anti fighter class vessel ?
I would dare to say that GTVA must realize that making a ship "decent" in all purposes is impossible, so specialization in ship design is the key here, well at least that's how I would deal with Shivans.
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I tend to take the tables pretty literally, so I'd say the GTVA's success depends on how well they can stay out of capital ship battles and do everything with fighters and bombers. But if a warship is going to go into combat, I agree that it should be a corvette, since cruisers will get overwhelmed by heavy fighters and destroyers' fighter bays are too important.
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It's all in the deployment. Beams can bring an end to an engagement better than bombs in the end.
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The most obvious necessary change is the GTVA needs to develop a means to eliminate a juggernaut, rapidly. Lots of people have posisted ways to do this from the ever-popular Giant Honkin' Flying Beam Cannon to the 120-tube Helios launching corvette. The final form of such a weapon is ultimately going to dictate the final form of GTVA doctrine.
Absent the means to deal with the juggernaut fleet, which is at the least several decades away, there is no real defense. The only option left is to locate entry points and collapse them. A more portable and more easily constructed means of collapsing nodes then tearing out the guts of an Orion and stuffing it full of Meson Bombs is neccessary. Realistically speaking I doubt they can get it down to smaller than a Deimos, but that should be enough. About twenty of these will be needed, one for each system and several backups. The GTVA will need to rapidly locate a Shivan entry point, blow it away with one of our hypothetical node-collapsing Demioseseses, and then mop up the stragglers. Speed and rapid deployment of combat assets from everywhere will have to be emphasized. If you can't bring everything, and I do mean everything, that can move and shoot to bear within a week, you should not expect to succeed. If you can't shut the door into the threatened system within two weeks, the battle is probably lost and you should blow the nodes out of that system and take the loss rather than lose everything.
If the Shivans were determined/patient enough and their ships could hold sufficient provisions, they could reach the GTVA at sublight speeds over a period of years if necessary. Time is on their side, after all.
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If the Shivans were determined/patient enough and their ships could hold sufficient provisions, they could reach the GTVA at sublight speeds over a period of years if necessary. Time is on their side, after all.
If they burn that much time just getting there, it's unlikely they'll be able to make a significant fight of it when they do. The GTVA is playing for time to build up; if the Shivans want to give them that time on their own...
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The GTVA could not build up a sufficient force to seriously challenge what the Shivans can do if they actually try, not even in a hundred years. The GTVA certainly hasn't displayed the ability to build anything even in the same ballpark as the Sathanas fleet. Really, it appears that the only limit on Shivan firepower (at least against the GTVA) is their seeming reluctance to deploy anymore than the minimum force they think they need, and when they finally did roll out the big iron, they displayed a total lack of interest beyond securing Capella so they could perform their subspace voodoo on the star. They seemed content to chase Allied ships to the node and let them escape.
The only reason why the GTVA still exists is because the Shivans didn't try hard enough to kill them. There is no realistic way the GTVA could defend itself even in the short term if the Shivans made a serious effort to stamp them out.
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super-dupa node blocader. Wrap a massive piece of iron around a node, and stick a whole lotta beam cannons on it. Kinda like a melia minus the node making ability. Anything smaller than a juggernaut is gone, a juggernaut would receive a lot of damage.
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super-dupa node blocader. Wrap a massive piece of iron around a node, and stick a whole lotta beam cannons on it. Kinda like a melia minus the node making ability. Anything smaller than a juggernaut is gone, a juggernaut would receive a lot of damage.
But what about 80 Juggernauts?
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Inject deimossy mesonny thing into node. Doesn't need to move very far (just through subspace as station could probably contain a propulsion system for the craft), doesn't need any weaponry, and a jump drive. I think any other method of stopping 80+ juggernauts would fail. Unless you just put enough firepower on the station so it could destroy a juggernaut before the one behind it jumped in, which would be overpowered, overexpensive, overly large and would encourage the construction of Inferno sized warships (ssj and sh).
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So basically Corvettes would be an anti fighter class vessel ?
I would dare to say that GTVA must realize that making a ship "decent" in all purposes is impossible, so specialization in ship design is the key here, well at least that's how I would deal with Shivans.
I propose corvettes to be both anti-fighter and anti-capital ship vessel, making them fulfill both assault and escort functions instead of escort only as it was during FS2.
Specialization probably wouldn't be a good thing. Imagine this:
You have 2 ships - strictly Anti-Fighter corvette, and strictly Anti-Capital Ship Corvette. Compared to mixed purpose corvettes they probably would have śome 20% or so more firepower in both regards thanks to specialization. They come across a shivan destroyer - what happens now? The destroyer only has to destroy 1 Corvette to defeat those 2 corvettes. If those 2 are attacked by enemy bombers and fighters the situation is the same - only one corvette is a threat, so only one need to be destroyed in order to render the second defensless. Simply put - mixed purpose vessels may have slightly lower firepower, but diminishing this firepower takes a lot more firepower. :D
The most obvious necessary change is the GTVA needs to develop a means to eliminate a juggernaut, rapidly. Lots of people have posisted ways to do this from the ever-popular Giant Honkin' Flying Beam Cannon to the 120-tube Helios launching corvette. The final form of such a weapon is ultimately going to dictate the final form of GTVA doctrine.
Absent the means to deal with the juggernaut fleet, which is at the least several decades away, there is no real defense. The only option left is to locate entry points and collapse them. A more portable and more easily constructed means of collapsing nodes then tearing out the guts of an Orion and stuffing it full of Meson Bombs is neccessary. Realistically speaking I doubt they can get it down to smaller than a Deimos, but that should be enough. About twenty of these will be needed, one for each system and several backups. The GTVA will need to rapidly locate a Shivan entry point, blow it away with one of our hypothetical node-collapsing Demioseseses, and then mop up the stragglers. Speed and rapid deployment of combat assets from everywhere will have to be emphasized. If you can't bring everything, and I do mean everything, that can move and shoot to bear within a week, you should not expect to succeed. If you can't shut the door into the threatened system within two weeks, the battle is probably lost and you should blow the nodes out of that system and take the loss rather than lose everything.
I suppose with the current state of GTVAs technology it's impossible to create weapon capable of destroying Sathanes in hundreds, but given 30 - 40 years, this will probably become perfectly possible. After all GTVA aquired new technology and new ideas for weapons during this war - knossos, scans of BFReds, scans of CommNodes(whatever they are, they may contain some new tech), and readings of what Shivans did to capella. If meson bombs are to be mass-produced, it may prove possible to create new warheads using them, which may help a lot during the war.
If the Shivans were determined/patient enough and their ships could hold sufficient provisions, they could reach the GTVA at sublight speeds over a period of years if necessary. Time is on their side, after all.
I belive time is not so much on their side, at least not in this way. Before they get to their destination, the fleet will be outdated and it will give GTVA time to develop new means of destroying them - just as we did after great war.
The GTVA could not build up a sufficient force to seriously challenge what the Shivans can do if they actually try, not even in a hundred years. The GTVA certainly hasn't displayed the ability to build anything even in the same ballpark as the Sathanas fleet. Really, it appears that the only limit on Shivan firepower (at least against the GTVA) is their seeming reluctance to deploy anymore than the minimum force they think they need, and when they finally did roll out the big iron, they displayed a total lack of interest beyond securing Capella so they could perform their subspace voodoo on the star. They seemed content to chase Allied ships to the node and let them escape.
The only reason why the GTVA still exists is because the Shivans didn't try hard enough to kill them. There is no realistic way the GTVA could defend itself even in the short term if the Shivans made a serious effort to stamp them out.
Even if we couldn't build a fleet of similar proportions, tech difference will make difference ;). Great War era destroyers would probably be decimated by FS2 era cruisers like Aeolus - similar could occur between our destroyers and juggernaughts in some 40 years during which the jugs would travel with sublight speed, isolated from shivan R&D:P
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The GTVA could not build up a sufficient force to seriously challenge what the Shivans can do if they actually try, not even in a hundred years. The GTVA certainly hasn't displayed the ability to build anything even in the same ballpark as the Sathanas fleet.
Technological progress invalidates your argument. Even if we make some very generous assumptions, say they only have to go 3 lightyears and they can move at .2C, that means 15 years of being deaf, dumb, and blind in the interstellar void. When we start talking more reasonable, say 15 lightyears at .1C, it's 150 years. By the time the Shivans get there, they will be hopelessly outmatched technologically.
Additionally the requirements of such ships, high realspace speeds and large stocks of provisions and parts, will inevitably impunge their fighting ability. So no; the node-destruction strategy is sound. Any effort to reach the GTVA in realspace is a fool's errand.
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The GTVA still couldn't do it in 15 years, or 150. Even if they developed technology equal or superior to what the Shivans have, they do not have the resources or industrial base. Even without superior technology, the Shivans could just bury them under dozens of juggernauts.
If the Shivans really try to destroy the GTVA, the GTVA has zero chance of stopping them. The only resistance they could hope to put up is token.
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Technological progress invalidates your argument. Even if we make some very generous assumptions, say they only have to go 3 lightyears and they can move at .2C, that means 15 years of being deaf, dumb, and blind in the interstellar void. When we start talking more reasonable, say 15 lightyears at .1C, it's 150 years. By the time the Shivans get there, they will be hopelessly outmatched technologically.
Additionally the requirements of such ships, high realspace speeds and large stocks of provisions and parts, will inevitably impunge their fighting ability. So no; the node-destruction strategy is sound. Any effort to reach the GTVA in realspace is a fool's errand.
Yeah, realspace travel is a no-go, unless the Shivans would invent some kind of an alternate FTL method of travel, which is highly doubtful given their mastery of subspace. Still, there are a lot of uncharted and/or unstable nodes - Shivans could come at us from a completely unexpected direction.
As for the technological advancements - just look how the 18 months of conflict with the NTF and later Shivans propelled the GTVA tech. Just look how they went from a 30sec reload of BGreen to the 7sec reload of MjolnirBeam in such a short time. With the Vasudan help in the field of reactors and some further advancements in heat sinks, Mjolnirs or BFGreens as standard armament for capships isn't that unrealistic.
I wouldn't be surprised if after witnessing the havoc that can be wreaked by the Shivan destroyers and bigger ships, the GTVA would start creating purely offensive classes. Ships with lots of beams concentrated in the forward arc, but with only marginal protection from any other side; vessels that would be capable of inflicting as much damage as possible in a short amount of time.
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The Shivans could just build Knossos devices.
I mean, if the GTVA think it'd work for re-connecting to sol, then it'd probably work reconnecting those meson-collapsed nodes.
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Since the Shivans probably can build nodes, what about using those Meson Orions and Meson Deimoses against the Juggs themselves?
Also- what about giving Meson bombs some engines and using them as supersized torpedoes launched from freighters?
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Sub Space missile, a fighter sized missile targeted by fighters at the scene of battle and launched by in system warships away from the site of battle, using a variation of tag missile technology triggers the capital ship to launch the missile which a few seconds jumps to subspace. the tag missile communicates to the fighter which relays target location data to the missile (communication in subspace proved in the last mission of FS) the missile then jumps back into real space seconds from impact, makes final clarification of target location and strikes.
Aeolus proves that cruisers can be effective anti fighter warships, i would propose that cruisers continue the FS2 doctrine of anti-fighter warship (lets face it when 3 battered Aeolus can hold their own with limited fighter cover against multiple waves of shivan heavy bombers i would say thats their niche) but i would go mentu on it an have them as pure anti fighter (imagine an Aeolus with additional anti fighter beams)
Corvettes would need to be more pure anti capital, slash beams to deal with turrets and sustained hull damage, a small number of anti fighter beams to hinder fighters/bombs but mainly pick off turrets.
Fighter Carrier, enough anti fighter beams to effectively hold their own against heavy bomber assaults and a small number of show stopper anti capital beams to quickly deal with at least corvette size from an optimum angle.
Destroyer, strip out the fighter bay use the space for something useful like reactor space and increase the ships anti capital firepower
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If the Shivans were determined/patient enough and their ships could hold sufficient provisions, they could reach the GTVA at sublight speeds over a period of years if necessary. Time is on their side, after all.
*urk*
It takes about 150 Helios torpedoes to take down a Sathanas Juggernaut. The Helios torpedo was, AFAIK, produced solely after the outbreak of the NTF war. Let's say that this is two years, for sake of argument. Let's also say that the GTVA used all of their Helios torpedoes in "Bearbating" and "High Noon." There are 16 torpedoes in this mission initially, so we'll say that there were about 20 torpedoes (hey, who hasn't rearmed at least once in bearbating?) total built in those two years. 10 per year. It would take about 11,999,912 years for a Sathanas to travel 1 light-year. 1 light-year is much closer than any of the systems are to each other, but for the sake of argument, let's say that it's one light year. Also, let's say that humanity makes no technological progression in these twelve million years. So theoretically, 119,999,120 Helios torpedoes could be produced in the time it takes for a Sathanas fleet to reach GTVA systems. This is enough to destroy at least 799,994 Sathanas Juggernauts.
I won't even try to factor in technological advancements or with factories that aren't getting bombed or expansion of the GTVA's industrial base. But you figure that balances out the fact that they'll probably be using these bombs up at some rate and that they need to build bombers and carriers, too.
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Uhh, no, ships in space do not have a speed limit, it is completely impossible for them to have one because there is no friction in space. You apply thrust, it goes faster. Ships in cutscenes and animations have been seen going much, much faster than in gameplay. "Max velocity" is a gameplay contrivance that has no relation to the way actual space travel works. And if you're not going to attempt to reconcile the subject of a debate with actual real-life mechanics, there's no point arguing about anything because you can answer any question with "a wizard did it'.
A ship in space cannot have its speed limited by anything but fuel supply, space just doesn't work that way. Furthermore, speed is relative, so a ship traveling at 55 m/s relative to one planet might be moving 100,000 m/s relative to a star a few light-years away, which means that aside from being impossible, max speed doesn't even mean anything in space anyway because speed is entirely dependent on the observer.
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For that matter, you still haven't explained why they're still going to be able to fight off a 150-year advanced over them force. In the twenty-odd years between the Great War and the second round of it, we saw how far the GTVA was able to progress their technology. In 150 years, their destroyers will chuckle at a Sathanas. Their average fighter squadron will chuckle at a Sathanas.
Unless it's in your head, apparently?
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Uhh, no, ships in space do not have a speed limit, it is completely impossible for them to have one because there is no friction in space. You apply thrust, it goes faster. Ships in cutscenes and animations have been seen going much, much faster than in gameplay. "Max velocity" is a gameplay contrivance that has no relation to the way actual space travel works. And if you're not going to attempt to reconcile the subject of a debate with actual real-life mechanics, there's no point arguing about anything because you can answer any question with "a wizard did it'.
A ship in space cannot have its speed limited by anything but fuel supply, space just doesn't work that way. Furthermore, speed is relative, so a ship traveling at 55 m/s relative to one planet might be moving 100,000 m/s relative to a star a few light-years away, which means that aside from being impossible, max speed doesn't even mean anything in space anyway because speed is entirely dependent on the observer.
Except if you're having a discussion about Freespace, you need to bind yourself to Freespace's physics system, which quite clearly has a speed limit. Or do we want to talk about simply shooting sand at extremely high velocity in front of all of the Sathanas Juggernauts and breaking all of their equipment?
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For that matter, you still haven't explained why they're still going to be able to fight off a 150-year advanced over them force. In the twenty-odd years between the Great War and the second round of it, we saw how far the GTVA was able to progress their technology. In 150 years, their destroyers will chuckle at a Sathanas. Their average fighter squadron will chuckle at a Sathanas.
Unless it's in your head, apparently?
Exactly.
Given NGTM-1R's assumption of 150 years, they would've been greatly outdated and most likely melted by a cruiser beams.
Just look what we have now and what we had 150 years ago.
It would be like bombing horsemen with nukes, even in WWI cavalry was one of the most powerfull units on the battlefield.
Imagine charging on a horseback with a lance and a rifle from 1860 against M1 Abrams or attacking a Nimitz-class carierr with a Galleon.
And keep in mind that technology seems to advance quicker in the modern times than some time ago, so if this doesn't changes it would be going even faster at the time of FS2.
It's possible that standard cannons will be as strong as FS2 era Meson bombs and FS2 BFRed would barely scratch a cruiser.
That is if the cruiser won't have anti-beam, high energy shield that will render BFReds completely useless.
Also, Sathans may not be able even to fire it's beams, as beams after 150 years would recharge much quicker and simply fire first, slicing the Sathanas in half.
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Uhh, no, ships in space do not have a speed limit, it is completely impossible for them to have one because there is no friction in space. You apply thrust, it goes faster. Ships in cutscenes and animations have been seen going much, much faster than in gameplay. "Max velocity" is a gameplay contrivance that has no relation to the way actual space travel works. And if you're not going to attempt to reconcile the subject of a debate with actual real-life mechanics, there's no point arguing about anything because you can answer any question with "a wizard did it'.
A ship in space cannot have its speed limited by anything but fuel supply, space just doesn't work that way. Furthermore, speed is relative, so a ship traveling at 55 m/s relative to one planet might be moving 100,000 m/s relative to a star a few light-years away, which means that aside from being impossible, max speed doesn't even mean anything in space anyway because speed is entirely dependent on the observer.
Except if you're having a discussion about Freespace, you need to bind yourself to Freespace's physics system, which quite clearly has a speed limit. Or do we want to talk about simply shooting sand at extremely high velocity in front of all of the Sathanas Juggernauts and breaking all of their equipment?
If FreeSpace's physics system were used, matter and life as we know it could not exist because the physical constants and nature of the universe would be completely different from that of our own. However, considering the fact that planets, stars, life, etc. seems to exist much the same way as they do now. Saying that the universe must have such insane physics is just as stupid as saying that in Doom's universe, guns must magically hold hundreds more rounds than can possibly fit. It's a distortion of the universe to fit a game, much a like an FPS game tends to take great liberties with the actual way guns work. Trying to argue about something like this without even allowing the universe to work in anything resembling a realistic way is completely pointless as the basic workings of everything involved are arbitrary, illogical, and impossible. There is no point to arguing about what amounts to "a wizard did it".
As far as "shooting sand", that's exactly what will happen to any ship traveling in deep space, especially a very large one--sooner or later a micrometeorite will hit you. One can only assume their armor can resist micrometeorites any any kinetic weaponry the GTVA can devise.
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For that matter, you still haven't explained why they're still going to be able to fight off a 150-year advanced over them force. In the twenty-odd years between the Great War and the second round of it, we saw how far the GTVA was able to progress their technology. In 150 years, their destroyers will chuckle at a Sathanas. Their average fighter squadron will chuckle at a Sathanas.
Unless it's in your head, apparently?
And this is based on what factor, that Shivans for some bizzare reason decide not to advance their technology?
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No, but the Sathanas fleet won't be advancing in technology since it will be slow-boating from Capella to GTVA space.
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And this is based on what factor, that Shivans for some bizzare reason decide not to advance their technology?
If you're taking the 150-year cold run, you won't be refitting your ships, much less doing research.
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Uhh, no, ships in space do not have a speed limit, it is completely impossible for them to have one because there is no friction in space. You apply thrust, it goes faster. Ships in cutscenes and animations have been seen going much, much faster than in gameplay. "Max velocity" is a gameplay contrivance that has no relation to the way actual space travel works. And if you're not going to attempt to reconcile the subject of a debate with actual real-life mechanics, there's no point arguing about anything because you can answer any question with "a wizard did it'
Wow, someone arguing for "realistic physics" and then forgetting relativity.
Albert Einstein is tapping you on the shoulder.
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One reason that I think the "universe" (the one that is supposedly different from the game mechanics) is irrelevant to these discussions is that it is impossible to communicate it. At best we can fantasize about how FreeSpace would be "in real life." Once people start talking about actual mods and campaigns, all the realistic physics suddenly gets translated back into FreeSpace game mechanics.
I feel like that didn't get my point across at all. So, yeah. :P [/rant]
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Well if FreeSpace was real proportions would definately be a lot different. ;)
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If FreeSpace's physics system were used, matter and life as we know it could not exist because the physical constants and nature of the universe would be completely different from that of our own. However, considering the fact that planets, stars, life, etc. seems to exist much the same way as they do now. Saying that the universe must have such insane physics is just as stupid as saying that in Doom's universe, guns must magically hold hundreds more rounds than can possibly fit. It's a distortion of the universe to fit a game, much a like an FPS game tends to take great liberties with the actual way guns work. Trying to argue about something like this without even allowing the universe to work in anything resembling a realistic way is completely pointless as the basic workings of everything involved are arbitrary, illogical, and impossible. There is no point to arguing about what amounts to "a wizard did it".
As far as "shooting sand", that's exactly what will happen to any ship traveling in deep space, especially a very large one--sooner or later a micrometeorite will hit you. One can only assume their armor can resist micrometeorites any any kinetic weaponry the GTVA can devise.
What are you trying to debate about? We're trying to make an extension to the Freespace game. You cannot do that by disregarding game physics. A Sathanas going faster than 25 m/s is impossible in the Freespace world. Freespace craft flying like they do in the game is impossible in real life. Take your pick which physics system you ignore, but if it's the freespace system you're ignore, please continue this discussion on the GD board.
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The FreeSpace "physics" system doesn't work and is incompatible with the way the universe works; it is completely and utterly useless for debating. If you're not ging to debate using physics that follow actual rules relevant to reality, there's no point in debating anything because the entire universe ends up underpinned by absurd and arbitrary concepts. You can abandon these ridiculous concepts when debating about the universe independent of the actual game itself, or you can have no debate because the physics of the game are complete nonsense.
I repeat, the physics shown in the game are nonsense. They're not even worth thinking about except in terms of playing the game. FreeSpace ships openly defy them outside of mission gameplay anyway--see the fall of Vasuda Prime command briefing (where a Horus easily reaches escape velocity for a large rocky planet, which is several thousand m/s), and the FS2 ending cutscene (where Sathanas-class juggernauts travel what looks to be hundreds of meters per second). I don't work with nonsense, and no one else should either.
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The FreeSpace "physics" system doesn't work and is incompatible with the way the universe works; it is completely and utterly useless for debating. If you're not ging to debate using physics that follow actual rules relevant to reality, there's no point in debating anything because the entire universe ends up underpinned by absurd and arbitrary concepts. You can abandon these ridiculous concepts when debating about the universe independent of the actual game itself, or you can have no debate because the physics of the game are complete nonsense.
I repeat, the physics shown in the game are nonsense. They're not even worth thinking about except in terms of playing the game. FreeSpace ships openly defy them outside of mission gameplay anyway--see the fall of Vasuda Prime command briefing (where a Horus easily reaches escape velocity for a large rocky planet, which is several thousand m/s), and the FS2 ending cutscene (where Sathanas-class juggernauts travel what looks to be hundreds of meters per second). I don't work with nonsense, and no one else should either.
Sathanas juggernauts themselves are nonsense. If you're not talking about Freespace in a manner that's bound to what's presented in the Freespace universe, then you're not talking about Freespace.
EDIT: Also, you don't need to reach escape velocity to leave orbit. Theoretically, it's possible to have an object go from the surface of a planet to out of orbit at a constant 1 m/s.
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Please explain why Juggernauts are nonsense.
...That's really all I have to contribute here for now.
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At any rate, the Horus was moving much faster than 90 m/s, it traveled what looked like several kilometers from the Vasudan city to the foreground in seconds, and then was outside of Vasuda Prime's atmosphere a few seconds later. Plus the Sathanas juggernauts in FS2's ending were moving much faster than 25 m/s; they were moving a significant fraction of their >5000m length every second. These displays of speed are much faster than anything seen in the game.
Accepting something vaguely silly like a giant spaceship (whose inner workings are completely unknown and unexplained) with death rays (whose inner workings are also completely unknown and unexplained) is one thing, but accepting everything in the universe adhering to principles that are completely at odds with the most basic aspects of the universe (even the FTL doesn't do this, as it involves leaving the "real" universe for a period of time) and completely at odds with the existence of life or even planetary systems (which are a product of Newtonian principles of motion) is unacceptable. You might as well debate about magic. You need some sort of connection to reality to have any ability to debate beyond the "a wizard did it" level. Hell, the way FreeSpace handles speeds doesn't even mesh with the way speed works (it is always a value relative to the point of reference and the observed. Speed can only appear absolute in terrestrial cases because our velocity "at rest" is the same as the Earth's and thus the Earth is a "stationary" reference point for just about everything on Earth)! It's completely worthless for anything but a game mechanic!
FreeSpace desperately needs a novel or TV show, preferably written by someone with at least an elementary grasp of physics. Even if they weren't, at least we'd have a view of the universe that wasn't completely enslaved to serving a gameplay model.
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Meaning it doesn't really make a lot of sense to try to have a serious debate between Reality™ physics and FreeSpace game physics.
Sure, FreeSpace has state-of-the-art spacecraft that go no faster than a person, while Reality has spacecraft that's just used for going outside of orbit, nabbing a rock or something or deploying a satellite, then returning, all while going how many tens of thousands of whatever unit per second? Then you have 17 meter fighters carrying 23 meter bombs like it's nothing, this, that and the other, but it's a game, for fun, not for trying to apply true logic into it.
Unless you want to TC FreeSpace into something that attempts true logic, maybe.
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FreeSpace game physics cannot support a debate, they're just too arbitrary and ass-backwards for it. That's why serious sci-fi debates must attempt to rationalize everything in a sci-fi universe with real physics. See the extremely elaborate explanations people have created for the properties, behavior, and nature of Star Wars "lasers". The general consensus is that they're particle cannons of some sort.
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At any rate, the Horus was moving much faster than 90 m/s, it traveled what looked like several kilometers from the Vasudan city to the foreground in seconds, and then was outside of Vasuda Prime's atmosphere a few seconds later. Plus the Sathanas juggernauts in FS2's ending were moving much faster than 25 m/s; they were moving a significant fraction of their >5000m length every second. These displays of speed are much faster than anything seen in the game.
Accepting something vaguely silly like a giant spaceship (whose inner workings are completely unknown and unexplained) with death rays (whose inner workings are also completely unknown and unexplained) is one thing, but accepting everything in the universe adhering to principles that are completely at odds with the most basic aspects of the universe (even the FTL doesn't do this, as it involves leaving the "real" universe for a period of time) and completely at odds with the existence of life or even planetary systems (which are a product of Newtonian principles of motion) is unacceptable. You might as well debate about magic. You need some sort of connection to reality to have any ability to debate beyond the "a wizard did it" level. Hell, the way FreeSpace handles speeds doesn't even mesh with the way speed works! It's completely worthless for anything but a game mechanic!
You are exactly right.
Freespace is bound by its game mechanics. We are discussing (trying to, at least) ways to combat Shivans in Freespace. Therefore, what we discuss should be bound by Freespace's game mechanics.
EDIT: Enjoy trying to refute a sound valid argument. :p
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But the very game mechanics they're bound by preclude any sort of rational discussion about the game divorced from the context of the game itself and its hitpoints, hitboxes, and other video game abstractions. FreeSpace the universe must be divorced from FreeSpace 2 the game for any sort of real debate on its story to be done because the game mechanics are useless as anything but game mechanics. It's as dumb as talking about Doom's story (such as it is, anyway) and including SR-50 and vertical autoaim.
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We are also not on this tangent from the "fight them in subspace" point, but rather the "Sathanases can't go faster than 25 m/s between planets in the interstellar void" point.
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But the very game mechanics they're bound by preclude any sort of rational discussion about the game divorced from the context of the game itself and its hitpoints, hitboxes, and other video game abstractions. FreeSpace the universe must be divorced from FreeSpace 2 the game for any sort of real debate on its story to be done because the game mechanics are useless as anything but game mechanics.
What is the point in trying to figure out a real way to fight a fake enemy?
I'll humor you, though. I have a solution to our Shivan problem: You get massive nuclear warheads mounted on missiles that fly at c fractional velocities, fired from billions of miles away. Every single ship that's larger than a bomber is now completely obsolete.
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Aren't missiles in FreeSpace anyway already modern-day nuclear yeild?
Then there's the Harbinger.
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Aren't missiles in FreeSpace anyway already modern-day nuclear yeild?
Then there's the Harbinger.
Those missiles are bound by freespace physics, though. They're flawed.
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What is the point in trying to figure out a real way to fight a fake enemy?
What is the point in speculating or arguing about something that doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense? What I'm proposing is to make it make sense so it can actually be analyzed to some extent.
I'll humor you, though. I have a solution to our Shivan problem: You get massive nuclear warheads mounted on missiles that fly at c fractional velocities, fired from billions of miles away. Every single ship that's larger than a bomber is now completely obsolete.
Even c-fractional missiles can be shot down, considering that one could build a (true) laser whose shots are light-speed. AAA beams that are probably c-fractional themselves, and communications and sensors that may be FTL and probably involve subspace of some sort. If you fire them billions of miles away, the targets will have plenty of time to escape. Only SSMs could allow strikes from that range, and those implications are why I have never used SSMs in any of my mods. Also by engaging enemies at close range, you could prevent their missiles from burning their engines long enough to reach significant speed in the first place, and swat them down.
We are also not on this tangent from the "fight them in subspace" point, but rather the "Sathanases can't go faster than 25 m/s between planets in the interstellar void" point.
Speaking of subspace, I once wrote a long rationalization of subspace to try to make sense of it. This was written for the species.tbl of my defunct Starforce mod, so it references technologies that are hundreds or even thousands of years beyond what the GTVA has in FS2, and a much greater understanding of subspace than they have, but it still applies to them too.
In simple terms, subspace is the 'filling' that the space-time membrane of the universe rests on. Imagine an extremely wrinkled and distorted sphere. The interior of this sphere would be subspace, and the outer 'skin' the universe we exist in. The convolutions in space-time and the nature of subspace mean that a few minutes' travel through subspace can cover hundreds if not thousands of light years.
However, one cannot just enter subspace at a whim. The 'thickness' of the space-time membrane makes it impossible to transition into subspace except under certain conditions, and, furthermore, subspace is saturated with a seemingly limitless 'energy soup' that would annihilate any physical objects within subspace (this energy-rich ether is the source of the swirling glow associated with all forms of subspace use). Subspace nodes solve both of these problems.
A subspace node creates a corridor of realspace through subspace, connecting two points in the universe. Naturally-occurring subspace nodes are extremely unstable, collapsing within seconds of their formation. However, the more traffic passes through a subspace node, the more stable and permanent it becomes. A well-maintained node can exist indefinitely.
There are estimated to be several million permanent or semi-permanent subspace nodes linking star systems in the Milky Way galaxy. Of these, over 1.5 million have been charted. The origin of the vast majority of these long-lasting nodes is unknown, and historical record indicates they have been in use by other civilizations for millennia before humans developed spaceflight. Theories that the ancient, long-vanished Shivan race created these nodes has been mostly discredited--the Shivans could not have had an empire of millions of systems, even before their war with the Zica, and, at any rate, the Shivans sterilized every planet they ever inhabited to wipe out all Zica presence in this galaxy, and the number and distribution of devastated worlds does not support such theories.
Subspace nodes can be artificially generated with the correct calculations, a large amount of energy, and a subspace drive. Most spacecraft can only create very short nodes, usually no more than 10 light-years [Ed. note: in 2367, the distance would be less than one light year. Energy cost for subspace travel increases exponentially with distance, and is even higher when the node passes beyond a star's gravitational field, so inter-system jumps are too energy costly for the GTVA to even attempt], on their own, but larger starships can travel hundreds or even thousands of light-years without a pre-existing subspace node. Most artificial nodes have a lifespan of an hour or less. Passing additional ships through them can prolong their existence.
Dedicated subspace portals, while expensive and energy-intensive, are a more permanent solution for the creation of subspace nodes. Each portal is composed of multiple counter-rotating components that together create powerful subspace distortions. The first portal discovered by human beings was encountered in 2367, and named Knossos. After the Second Great War, humanity began building their own portals based on the design of Knossos, the first reconnecting Delta Serpentis to Sol in 2391. Portals that are used enough can create permanent subspace nodes, such as the Delta Serpentis-Sol node, which continues to exist long after the portal was dismantled.
The most extreme manifestations of subspace technology are Gates [Ed. note: The Shivans blew up Capella to make one of these], massive 'super-nodes' that connect entire galaxies and stretch for millions of light-years. No starship ever built has had the fuel to do conventional node-creation jumps over and over again long enough to reach another galaxy, so Stargates are the only practical method of intergalactic travel. Unfortunately, all of the Milky Way's Gates were collapsed by the Shivans to cut off the Zica's reinforcements during their war 34,000 years ago. The Stargate Project is an ongoing scientific endeavor carried out jointly by the Savaran Imperial Alliance, Earth Federation, and Core Consortium. Started in 4014, the project is nearing completion, and we hope to have a Gate to the Andromeda galaxy active next year.
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*Unrelated* Would this Starforce mod have any relation to Rogue Universe?
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*Unrelated* Would this Starforce mod have any relation to Rogue Universe?
No, that's "Space Force". Starforce itself, despite having later appropriated FreeSpace's backstory, predates FreeSpace and was conceived in 1995 as pretty much all the sci-fi I took in growing up chopped up, thrown into a blender, mutated with various chemicals, and spilled back out and left to mutate for around 12 years or so. It provided a good vehicle for speculating on FreeSpace technologies, having 2,000 years of history to look back on, but the storyline itself, having been conceived when I was younger and stupider and afflicted with over a decade of mutation and idea creep/seep, was not just nonsense but iredeemable nonsense and I grew to detest it--this speculation was written shortly before I trashed Starforce and folded the the ideas that I thought were worthwhile such as these ruminations on subspace, into my FreeSpace-universe projects.
It was eventually eclipsed as my main sci-fi worldbuilding universe by a new one I call Halcyon, which I started with consistent ground rules and setting principles so it would always make at least some sense. Unfortunately this one is not suitable for making into a FreeSpace mod because it's a lot less nebulous than Starforce and a lot of things that I put into it (like ships with arrays of turrets that track and fire as a unit, volleys of multiple independently-targeted missiles, use of beam-type weapons by pretty much everyone, and various ship designs I had drawn up with un-FS featurs like multipart turrets mounted on the sides) are impractical or impossible to replicate in FS.
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Even c-fractional missiles can be shot down, considering that one could build a (true) laser whose shots are light-speed. AAA beams that are probably c-fractional themselves, and communications and sensors that may be FTL and probably involve subspace of some sort. If you fire them billions of miles away, the targets will have plenty of time to escape. Only SSMs could allow strikes from that range, and those implications are why I have never used SSMs in any of my mods. Also by engaging enemies at close range, you could prevent their missiles from burning their engines long enough to reach significant speed in the first place, and swat them down.
Close. AAA actually travels at 1c given that it's light, but as I'm sure you're aware, it's extremely inaccurate.
(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2365/missile.png)
As you can see, it's very nearly a stealth fighter with a huge warhead and crazy engines.
EDIT: I made myself sad :(
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*Unrelated* Would this Starforce mod have any relation to Rogue Universe?
No, that's "Space Force". Starforce itself, despite having later appropriated FreeSpace's backstory, predates FreeSpace and was conceived in 1995 as pretty much all the sci-fi I took in growing up chopped up, thrown into a blender, mutated with various chemicals, and spilled back out and left to mutate for around 12 years or so. It provided a good vehicle for speculating on FreeSpace technologies, having 2,000 years of history to look back on, but the storyline itself, having been conceived when I was younger and stupider and afflicted with over a decade of mutation and idea creep/seep, was not just nonsense but iredeemable nonsense and I grew to detest it--this speculation was written shortly before I trashed Starforce and folded the the ideas that I thought were worthwhile such as these ruminations on subspace, into my FreeSpace-universe projects.
Right, it's been a while.
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Even c-fractional missiles can be shot down, considering that one could build a (true) laser whose shots are light-speed. AAA beams that are probably c-fractional themselves, and communications and sensors that may be FTL and probably involve subspace of some sort. If you fire them billions of miles away, the targets will have plenty of time to escape. Only SSMs could allow strikes from that range, and those implications are why I have never used SSMs in any of my mods. Also by engaging enemies at close range, you could prevent their missiles from burning their engines long enough to reach significant speed in the first place, and swat them down.
Close. AAA actually travels at 1c given that it's light, but as I'm sure you're aware, it's extremely inaccurate.
(http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2365/missile.png)
As you can see, it's very nearly a stealth fighter with a huge warhead and crazy engines.
EDIT: I made myself sad :(
I've always seen "beam cannons" as particle beams of some sort as the huge glowy shaft of death and loud whooshing noises don't match the way lasers work. Thus they would have mass and be c-fractional rather than c.
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I've always seen "beam cannons" as particle beams of some sort as the huge glowy shaft of death and loud whooshing noises don't match the way lasers work. Thus they would have mass and be c-fractional rather than c.
You very well may be right. I heard the term "photon beam cannon" somewhere in FS2 and assumed it was just another laser. Still, even with a c fractional beam cannon, that missile is the solution to all of the GTVA's woes. Just send it strait into the maw of a Sathanas, and those arms are coming off.
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*Looks at picture*
Invisible to any ship? Yeah. That happens. Or rather, ship won't see ejecta plume? Not likely. Easily shot down well before 1 km separation point (which is ridiculously close for a c fractional object.
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You sure? Sathanas-class ships can detect stealth fighters with their AWACS systems.
I think the GTVA and Shivans should invest in thermal imaging systems for their ships. Spaceships are hot (in comparison to space, even the contents of your freezer would be very hot and very visible), and space is cold, and there's no real way to hide that no matter what you do.
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*Looks at picture*
Invisible to any ship? Yeah. That happens. Or rather, ship won't see ejecta plume? Not likely. Easily shot down well before 1 km separation point (which is ridiculously close for a c fractional object.
The missile's engines don't fire constantly. The only way to evade this missile is to magically fix AAA (Even this won't help if beams are c-fractional) or to simply get lucky and see it and leave. Given subspace tracking technology and jump drive recharge times, it will take at most two missiles to down any T/V ship. I dunno about Shivan vessels, though.
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... and Core Consortium. ...
Having played TA, maybe? I'd really like to see Core space fighters in HTL FSO :cool: .
and a lot of things that I put into it (like ships with arrays of turrets that track and fire as a unit, volleys of multiple independently-targeted missiles, use of beam-type weapons by pretty much everyone, and various ship designs I had drawn up with un-FS featurs like multipart turrets mounted on the sides) are impractical or impossible to replicate in FS.
Multiple-target missile volleys seem possible by now, I saw this in some thread ( please detail how you think they should work... ) .
Use of beam weapons by everyone is a balance and story issue - put it far into the future of FS2.
And I think multipart-turrets, at least if pointing straight sideways, were also fixed a long time ago... I dunno about arbitrarily angled multipart turrets.
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Use of beam weapons by everyone is a balance and story issue - put it far into the future of FS2.
And I think multipart-turrets, at least if pointing straight sideways, were also fixed a long time ago... I dunno about arbitrarily angled multioart turrets.
Halcyon is not in the future of FS2; it uses an entirely different--there is no GTVA (but rather the United Terran Republic), no Vasudans (humans, Akisans, Kizomir, Coldraloans, Gri Sla, Gralach, Zraluk, and Zaal are the eight species), no subspace ("jumpspace" is the FTL handwavium of choice), different shields (they act more like a solid invisible wall rather than a glowy energy sheath and are only on capships, not fighters), etc. Relative to FS's timeline, it's actually in the "past" (although nothing in FS happens in Halcyon), with the present day being in early 2298. The problem with such use of beams is that the AI have unnatural accuracy with them and it generally sends mission balance to hell.
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Close. AAA actually travels at 1c given that it's light, but as I'm sure you're aware, it's extremely inaccurate.
-snip-
As you can see, it's very nearly a stealth fighter with a huge warhead and crazy engines.
EDIT: I made myself sad :(
Think about this:
- it would take a lot of time to accelerate to those c-fraction speed with conventional engines meaning, the ship it was targeting would very well be gone
- it would take a lot of time and heatsinks to lower the heat output to render it invisible
- you cant bind everything by game physics except your missle:P
Either we accept that game physics are only for gameplay purposes and FS reality is more realistic(nothing is bound by game physics) or we decide that game physics are FS reality physics and then everything is bound. You can't mix'n'match.
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I thought this thread was about debating how the GTVA would defend itself against the next Shivan incursion, in which case our reality has absolutely no place here as it has no effect in the FS universe
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Hold up a second, I'm confused: I thought we were talking using only realistic physics in this debate. You guys aren't allowed to use subspace in this discussion because it hasn't been verified as true. It may very well be possible that subspace exists in the real world, but it also may very well be possible that if anyone enters subspace they're unavoidably and immediately rent into pieces. Sure, I'll give you that the missile will not only be very visible and identifiable during acceleration, maneuvering, and evasion, and that any ship could easily enter subspace upon sight of the missile in Freespace, but within the context of this discussion we cannot assume that subspace would work as it does in freespace.
EDIT: In fact, the active sensors on the missile would pretty much announce right where it is. You'd still run into the trouble of actually hitting it, though. You figure that if you shoot it and then change velocity, the missile will change as well. So unless you maintain constant velocity, unguided munitions are completely out of the question. Even with guided weapons, their guidance system still has to get over the chaff and flare. This missile wouldn't have to worry about that so much because it's rather difficult to do that for larger ships. As for beams, that's probably your best bet to overcome this missile. Bear in mind that the farther away the missile is, not only is it harder to hit the missile with your beam, but the laser will be inherently much less focused and it will require longer to detonate the fuel in the missile. I suppose I could also say that the guidance computer would separate the KE penetrator if the temperature gets dangerously high, making a last ditch attempt to get something on target. So then you'd have to knock that penetration away, but you could do that with pretty much anything (other than laser; the particles would still collide with the ship provided aim is sure enough) because it's just a useless slug without the computer to tell it to deploy flare/chaff.
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Hold up a second, I'm confused: I thought we were talking using only realistic physics in this debate. You guys aren't allowed to use subspace in this discussion because it hasn't been verified as true. It may very well be possible that subspace exists in the real world, but it also may very well be possible that if anyone enters subspace they're unavoidably and immediately rent into pieces. Sure, I'll give you that the missile will not only be very visible and identifiable during acceleration, maneuvering, and evasion, and that any ship could easily enter subspace upon sight of the missile in Freespace, but within the context of this discussion we cannot assume that subspace would work as it does in freespace.
I refer back to the title
Changes to GTVA needed to defend against Shivans
and the opening post
Hello,
What changes to GTVA do you think are needed in order to be able to defend against Shivan menace in the post-FS2 period?
thus reality has nothing to do with the subject
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Hold up a second, I'm confused: I thought we were talking using only realistic physics in this debate. You guys aren't allowed to use subspace in this discussion because it hasn't been verified as true. It may very well be possible that subspace exists in the real world, but it also may very well be possible that if anyone enters subspace they're unavoidably and immediately rent into pieces. Sure, I'll give you that the missile will not only be very visible and identifiable during acceleration, maneuvering, and evasion, and that any ship could easily enter subspace upon sight of the missile in Freespace, but within the context of this discussion we cannot assume that subspace would work as it does in freespace.
I refer back to the title
Changes to GTVA needed to defend against Shivans
and the opening post
Hello,
What changes to GTVA do you think are needed in order to be able to defend against Shivan menace in the post-FS2 period?
thus reality has nothing to do with the subject
THANK YOU
Additionally, refer back to this argument I made that seems essentially ignored:
Freespace is bound by its game mechanics. We are discussing (trying to, at least) ways to combat Shivans in Freespace. Therefore, what we discuss should be bound by Freespace's game mechanics.
Furthermore, if anyone had noticed that the brief discussion we'd had assuming Realistic physics was very unlike Freespace. No one exactly caught on to what I was doing, but discussing Freespace with realistic physics makes about as much sense as discussing realistic physics in Freespace terms.
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Oh. i thought the discussion was of in-universe ways to improve the GTVA post capella. Thus in-universe discussions are not bound by limitations
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I no longer have any idea what people are talking about.
Let's make a ship that has two engines. One is a free space engine, and one is a real life engine. When the ship is powered up, a massive paradox will cause the entire system and its occupants to cease to exist in a great big hellishly confusing cataclysm.
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It would be very useful if you could find a way to switch mid-flight between the real life and FreeSpace engines. But the GTVA shouldn't have too much of a problem with the juggernaught fleet if they'd just build long-range torpedoes without adding "bomb" flags.
No one exactly caught on to what I was doing, but discussing Freespace with realistic physics makes about as much sense as discussing realistic physics in Freespace terms.
I think this is an interesting perspective. Are you saying, for example, that in the FreeSpace universe there is friction in space just as surely as there is subspace?
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It would be very useful if you could find a way to switch mid-flight between the real life and FreeSpace engines. But the GTVA shouldn't have too much of a problem with the juggernaught fleet if they'd just build long-range torpedoes without adding "bomb" flags.
There's a difference between being subject to game mechanics and meta-gaming. After all, why don't people just set the Sathanas's hitpoints to 1 in the table files, and make the Sathanas self destruct in "Their Finest Hour?" Because it's a game. I'm sure if real lives were really at stake, no one would find an issue with doing that.
No one exactly caught on to what I was doing, but discussing Freespace with realistic physics makes about as much sense as discussing realistic physics in Freespace terms.
I think this is an interesting perspective. Are you saying, for example, that in the FreeSpace universe there is friction in space just as surely as there is subspace?
I was kinda trying to say with what you quoted that discussing Freespace with only realistic physics is like discussion modern combat in terms of video game. Why doesn't the US army just open up the Real Life console and type in "god" and 'impulse101?" After all, balancing and cheating doesn't matter when lives are at stake. Or why don't they develop a tank with a gun that isn't impeded by traveling uphill? Or a bomb that doesn't inherit its bomber's lateral momentum?
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I don't know if you guys noticed, but in FS game physics, light travels at 500-something m/s, so all fighters and missles are already traveling at significant c-fraction speeds. It also makes light-years a lot smaller than in our reality. It only takes about 20 years for a Sathanas to travel a lightyear, and depending on where the systems are positioned in the galaxy(distances in the center of the galaxy are smaller then on the outer rims), they may very well be closer than a lightyear apart.
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light travels at 500-something m/s
Explain what led you to believe this.
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This is probably due to the fact that "lasers" travel at those speeds, though that's also inaccurate as there's quite a few weapons which travel faster than 500m/s.
Why does FS handle the way it does? Because that's how :v: rolls... :D
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subluminal lasers
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There's the explanation that blobs are...well...blobs of ejected plasma.
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never liked blobs, they just seem to improbable for me, lasers are just a step away from blobs as well.
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The closest star to Sol is Alpha Centauri and even if the Shivans had the capability to accelerate to nearly c (the energy cost of which would make supernova'ing Capella look trivial) that's still 4 years of travel. Try to do so from random locations of the galaxy (100,000 lightyears in diameter) and it's rather obvious that it'll still take a long time for the Shivans to arrive.
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Why would the locations be random? Since the Shivans probably have free run of most of the galaxy and hundreds of thousands if not millions of systems, they could launch their forces from stars only a few light-years from a GTVA system.
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The Terran and Vasudan systems are random ones that happen to be connected by subspace tunnels. Yet they didn't encounter the Shivans in all those systems. Furthermore, you could say for sure they have explored their home systems at least (perhaps even sent missions to nearby stars). It just so happens that the Shivans have all the star systems around but not the home systems? That's making things rather convenient.
Besides, why would the Shivans even care about the Terrans and Vasudans if those species collapsed their subspace nodes and stopped using them anyway. Under the various possible theories proposed in the cutscenes, the Shivans clearly only cared about races capable of traveling subspace and spreading that way.
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Well the whole thing with subspace is that systems that are "close" in subspace may not be close in realspace, and systems that are distant in subspace (relatively speaking; distances in subspace are orders of magnitude shorter than in realspace, which is why it takes minutes rather than years to reach another star system) may be right next to each other in realspace. Therefore, it is entirely possible for systems only a few light-years from a system Terran-Vasudan space to be full of Shivans
Furthermore, whether the Shivans would do this is irrelevant, because the discussion is about what they could do if they actually set their minds to annihilating the Terran and Vasudan species.
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The only changes the GTVA needs to make is to "cast aside logic and do the impossible!"
Face every challenge head-on and win by pure force of will. :cool:
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The only changes the GTVA needs to make is to "cast aside logic and do the impossible!"
Face every challenge head-on and win by pure force of will. :cool:
in other words clone alpha 1 enough for 20 squadrons and assign the clones to bomber and fighter squadrons held back until the shivans return then release the unspeeking fury on them
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Well the whole thing with subspace is that systems that are "close" in subspace may not be close in realspace, and systems that are distant in subspace (relatively speaking; distances in subspace are orders of magnitude shorter than in realspace, which is why it takes minutes rather than years to reach another star system) may be right next to each other in realspace. Therefore, it is entirely possible for systems only a few light-years from a system Terran-Vasudan space to be full of Shivans
That's the whole damn problem. It's only a small chance that it would be the case but you jump on it because it's convenient. It's just as likely (actually it's more likely than not considering how enormous just our galaxy alone is) that there aren't Shivans in the systems that are nearby. Furthermore, this is still ignoring the primary point that the energy needed to accelerate to the speeds required to get to Earth in a timely manner even for these short distances requires a great deal of energy.
Furthermore, whether the Shivans would do this is irrelevant, because the discussion is about what they could do if they actually set their minds to annihilating the Terran and Vasudan species.
Not really.What changes to GTVA do you think are needed in order to be able to defend against Shivan menace in the post-FS2 period?
The question is more asking how, given how the Shivans have worked thus far, would the GTVA adapt for a future incursion.
Hence relevant discussion about how the GTVA can't really build up anything within 30 years to deal with multiple juggernauts and perhaps the best hope would be quicker portable methods to seal off nodes.
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Well the whole thing with subspace is that systems that are "close" in subspace may not be close in realspace, and systems that are distant in subspace (relatively speaking; distances in subspace are orders of magnitude shorter than in realspace, which is why it takes minutes rather than years to reach another star system) may be right next to each other in realspace. Therefore, it is entirely possible for systems only a few light-years from a system Terran-Vasudan space to be full of Shivans
That's the whole damn problem. It's only a small chance that it would be the case but you jump on it as a certainty because it's convenient. It's just as likely that there aren't Shivans in the systems that are nearby. Furthermore, this is still ignoring the primary point that the energy needed to accelerate to the speeds required to get to Earth in a timely manner requires a great deal of energy.
The Shivans are not like the GTVA. They have had full run of the galaxy, perhaps multiple galaxies, for thousands, maybe tens of thousands of years. They probably have millions of systems and an empire that has grown at an exponential rate since human prehistory. The Shivan empire is almost certainly enormous almost beyond imagining.
The question is more asking how, given how the Shivans have worked thus far, would the GTVA adapt for a future incursion.
That was the question earlier. That is not the issue being discussed at this moment. Threads tend to evolve and drift over time; it's the way forums work.
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That was the question earlier. That is not the issue being discussed at this moment. Threads tend to evolve and drift over time; it's the way forums work.
Except you are the only one insisting on specific scenarios that are continuously adjusted so that your idea stands.
Furthermore, you push ahead ideas that are purely speculation on your part as if they're canon.The Shivans are not like the GTVA. They have had full run of the galaxy, perhaps multiple galaxies, for thousands, maybe tens of thousands of years. They probably have millions of systems and an empire that has grown at an exponential rate since human prehistory. The Shivan empire is almost certainly enormous almost beyond imagining.
We don't even know how large the Shivan armada is. Do they even "hold" systems? They were definitely around the block when the Ancients were, but how far do they go back? It was surmised that perhaps they have always existed as destroyers, but it was just an idle thought rather than definitive. I mean, in FS2 we don't even know what they were really up to for the entire story.
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Shivans might not place the same value on planets as humans, but they need energy (both for their ships and for their bodies), metals and other raw materials, water, and other resources. I imagine they have vast realspace holdings devoted to gathering resources.
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Do we even know that for sure? We know they have gas miner ships and have supply lines but we have no idea where the raw materials come from or if they even need anything beyond fuel/energy/parts supplies. For all we know, the Shivans could have a "replicator" type manufacturing process that allows them to use interstellar gas to construct ships. Certainly they've never shown any interest in planet based resources nor have we seen or heard of Shivan land ruins or controlled planets. At least we're constantly reminded of the manufacturing bases of the Vasudans and Terrans. Perhaps the Shivans really are "birthed out of subspace" as the monologue speculated and that's where the transport ships really came out of.
Besides, the lower limit of the Shivan fleet of 80ish juggernauts doesn't even require more than a single planet's worth of resources unless we assume that they're principally constructed out of unobtainium that's somehow spread thinly and evenly across the universe. Planets are huge compared to juggernauts much less even a single star system.
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I imagine
Case closed.
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Of course I took Freespace's speed of light from the speed their lasers travel at.
There's the explanation that blobs are...well...blobs of ejected plasma.
Well, they are called lasers, not plasma cannons for a reason I suppose. It's also worth noting, that the only reason spaceships trawel slower than light in FS game seems to be friction or something of obviously similar effect(no mention of relativistic physics being true in this universe), which means there is no problem at all with small projectiles traveling FTL. I see no inconsistencies.
The closest star to Sol is Alpha Centauri and even if the Shivans had the capability to accelerate to nearly c (the energy cost of which would make supernova'ing Capella look trivial) that's still 4 years of travel. Try to do so from random locations of the galaxy (100,000 lightyears in diameter) and it's rather obvious that it'll still take a long time for the Shivans to arrive.
Sol is pretty much on the outer rims of our galaxy. I remember reading some papers that postulated average distance between neighbour stars in galactic core as lower than 0.1 ly. You also have to keep in mind that it's possible they have a pretty detailed map of our galaxy, as well as technology to reopen capella nodes as soon as the nebula cools enough(I don't know, probably a few years?).
Do we even know that for sure? We know they have gas miner ships and have supply lines but we have no idea where the raw materials come from or if they even need anything beyond fuel/energy/parts supplies. For all we know, the Shivans could have a "replicator" type manufacturing process that allows them to use interstellar gas to construct ships. Certainly they've never shown any interested in planet based resources nor have we seen or heard of Shivan land ruins or controlled planets. At least we're constantly reminded of the manufacturing bases of the Vasudans and Terrans.
Besides, the lower limit of the Shivan fleet of 80ish juggernauts doesn't even require more than a single planet's worth of resources unless we assume that they're principally constructed out of unobtainium that's somehow spread thinly and evenly across the universe. Planets are huge compared to even juggernauts much less even a single star system.
Well it wouldn't be that hard for an advanced civilization to use even hydrogen to create everything else. They use fusion reactors on their ships after all.
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Of course I took Freespace's speed of light from the speed their lasers travel at.
There's the explanation that blobs are...well...blobs of ejected plasma.
Well, they are called lasers, not plasma cannons for a reason I suppose. It's also worth noting, that the only reason spaceships trawel slower than light in FS game seems to be friction or something of obviously similar effect(no mention of relativistic physics being true in this universe), which means there is no problem at all with small projectiles traveling FTL. I see no inconsistencies.
I have a little mod that will blow your mind. Play the test mission included.
Hint: Freespace's physics aren't defined by what I changed here. Blobs aren't lasers. Light travels instantaneously in Freespace. There is no friction in Freespace. Ships decelerate using the same engines the accelerate with.
EDIT: yes, I spent 5 minutes making this mod. quiet.
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Sol is pretty much on the outer rims of our galaxy. I remember reading some papers that postulated average distance between neighbour stars in galactic core as lower than 0.1 ly.
Eh, we're in one of the arms but in terms of diameter, we're only about 1/2-2/3rds out. Besides, the core (bar actually since the MWG seems to not be a pure spiral) of the Milky Way is only about a quarter of the diameter the long way. Stars are obviously closer in that area but not in our neighborhood =)
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Hint: Freespace's physics aren't defined by what I changed here. Blobs aren't lasers. Light travels instantaneously in Freespace. There is no friction in Freespace. Ships decelerate using the same engines the accelerate with.
EDIT: yes, I spent 5 minutes making this mod. quiet.
Really cool mod:D. But you really need to make fighters more manouverable:P
I don't know how you got those conclusions. There is obviously no visual difference between how the engines are working when decelerating and standing still. There is also no thrusters directed to the front of the ships. Also what about light speed in Freespace? Lasers got faster, but still do not travel instantaneously(what a cool word to try and spell right:P ).
Eh, we're in one of the arms but in terms of diameter, we're only about 1/2-2/3rds out. Besides, the core (bar actually since the MWG seems to not be a pure spiral) of the Milky Way is only about a quarter of the diameter the long way. Stars are obviously closer in that area but not in our neighborhood =)
Okay, I admit. I exaggerated a bit:P. Sol is around 27 000 ly from the galactic center, while arms span as far as 40 000ly and galactic core spans 10 000 ly which puts as somewhere around the middle of the arm. That doesn't change the fact, that we cannot think of 4ly as a standart distance between closest stars. There is many times more stars inside the core than outside of it if I remember correctly.
I tried finding a detailed map of milky way to locate the stars from the node map, but failed:P.
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Do we even know that for sure? We know they have gas miner ships and have supply lines but we have no idea where the raw materials come from or if they even need anything beyond fuel/energy/parts supplies. For all we know, the Shivans could have a "replicator" type manufacturing process that allows them to use interstellar gas to construct ships. Certainly they've never shown any interest in planet based resources nor have we seen or heard of Shivan land ruins or controlled planets. At least we're constantly reminded of the manufacturing bases of the Vasudans and Terrans. Perhaps the Shivans really are "birthed out of subspace" as the monologue speculated and that's where the transport ships really came out of.
Besides, the lower limit of the Shivan fleet of 80ish juggernauts doesn't even require more than a single planet's worth of resources unless we assume that they're principally constructed out of unobtainium that's somehow spread thinly and evenly across the universe. Planets are huge compared to juggernauts much less even a single star system.
Interstellar medium doesn't supply enough material to be worth anything--it's so unimaginably sparse that it's utterly useless. They're going to need planets or asteroids to obtain that much material. I doubt that they have no interest in planets; they more likely just have no interest in living on them. They also probably consider it counterproductive to "settle down" in Terran-Vasudan systems until the Terran and Vasudan races have been annihilated due to the counter-attack risk, but no such risk is present in their own home territory. Also, you can't just take any old material off a planet, you're going to need certain materials to build juggernauts, many of which are likely very rare, and this is compounded by the fact that only the crust of a geologically "live" planet is really useful for mining operations--the mantle is too homogenous and both the mantle and core would be extremely difficult to mine from. You're probably going to need many planets to gather all the rare materials needed to construct 80 juggernauts. There's also no reason for the Shivans not to have vast holdings when their own systems are unassailable and they can choose where to fight a war.
The Shivans are, for all intents and purposes, invincible. They can lose battles or individual fleets or formations, but they have so many that the GTVA cannot really do any permanent damage to them.
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Hint: Freespace's physics aren't defined by what I changed here. Blobs aren't lasers. Light travels instantaneously in Freespace. There is no friction in Freespace. Ships decelerate using the same engines the accelerate with.
EDIT: yes, I spent 5 minutes making this mod. quiet.
Really cool mod:D. But you really need to make fighters more manouverable:P
I don't know how you got those conclusions. There is obviously no visual difference between how the engines are working when decelerating and standing still. There is also no thrusters directed to the front of the ships. Also what about light speed in Freespace? Lasers got faster, but still do not travel instantaneously(what a cool word to try and spell right:P ).
If it were friction causing ships to slow down in Freespace, you would not be able to enter a deceleration rate in the table file. "Lasers" in freespace actually aren't lasers. No matter what crazy stuff you do, you can't form light into a blob like that. Also, if light really traveled at 500m/s, you'd be able to tell when ships turned, how the shadows would grow on their surface. But it doesn't, it's instantaneous.
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If it were friction causing ships to slow down in Freespace, you would not be able to enter a deceleration rate in the table file.
And what was the alternative? 10 year old game's engine calculating aerodynamic properties based on model shapes, or what?
"Lasers" in freespace actually aren't lasers. No matter what crazy stuff you do, you can't form light into a blob like that. Also, if light really traveled at 500m/s, you'd be able to tell when ships turned, how the shadows would grow on their surface. But it doesn't, it's instantaneous.
I say you'd be able to form light into a blob like that - you just wouldn't be able to see it. It's also not really a question of whether light really travels at that speed in FS universe because it clearly does, but whether all light travels at that speed. Since friction would suggest that FSs space is not void, but instead is filled with some medium, it's perfectly possible to have:
-non-newtonian behaviour of ships
-visible lasers
-different speeds of light depending on wavelenght
The only problem is that, since we suppose that visible light travels nearly instantaneously, those lasers would have to have longer wavelenghts then visible light meaning they're not lasers... damn:P so close:D
To be honest I find those arguments(table entry and visibility) on the same level I find arguments about Freespace ships hulls being utterly invincible untill there hps go do to 0 in which case they suddenly explode. Sure - the game works like that, but doesn't necessarily translate onto the universe.
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If the Shivans were 'birthed from the flux of subspace', and if subspace is a tremendously energetic environment (as it is portrayed), they may extract all the resources they could ever need from subspace alone.
Energy is matter, matter can be made into any form required given adequate energy.
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and this is compounded by the fact that only the crust of a geologically "live" planet is really useful for mining operations--the mantle is too homogenous and both the mantle and core would be extremely difficult to mine from. You're probably going to need many planets to gather all the rare materials needed to construct 80 juggernauts.
And here is yet another example of No Sense of Scale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) (warning, TVTropes will ruin your life).
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If it were friction causing ships to slow down in Freespace, you would not be able to enter a deceleration rate in the table file.
And what was the alternative? 10 year old game's engine calculating aerodynamic properties based on model shapes, or what?
Yes. Ever heard of a flight simulator? They've been around for a very long time.
If the Shivans were 'birthed from the flux of subspace', and if subspace is a tremendously energetic environment (as it is portrayed), they may extract all the resources they could ever need from subspace alone.
Energy is matter, matter can be made into any form required given adequate energy.
"Birthed from the flux of subspace' is vague, poetic language used by the Ancients in equally vague, poetic ruminations on an enemy they knew nothing about. Their entire view of the Shivans was couched in superstition and religious ideas; they cannot be taken as a reliable authority on the Shivans.
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and this is compounded by the fact that only the crust of a geologically "live" planet is really useful for mining operations--the mantle is too homogenous and both the mantle and core would be extremely difficult to mine from. You're probably going to need many planets to gather all the rare materials needed to construct 80 juggernauts.
And here is yet another example of No Sense of Scale (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) (warning, TVTropes will ruin your life).
To say that would imply they don't have have enough planets to make all the juggernauts. There's no reason why they should not.
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My favorite explanation for lasers is that they're photons traveling in a helix around a graviton core. (But just because it's my favorite doesn't mean it makes a bit of sense. ;) )
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"Birthed from the flux of subspace' is vague, poetic language used by the Ancients in equally vague, poetic ruminations on an enemy they knew nothing about. Their entire view of the Shivans was couched in superstition and religious ideas; they cannot be taken as a reliable authority on the Shivans.
It was from Bosch regarding the beliefs of the Ancients, not the Ancients directly, and like all things in FS canon it is ambiguous. There are a few mentions of how the Shivans may be native to subspace, but it's essentially immaterial: the point is that subspace may supply essentially unlimited resources to them.
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My favorite explanation for lasers is that they're photons traveling in a helix around a graviton core. (But just because it's my favorite doesn't mean it makes a bit of sense. ;) )
Gravity does not work that way. It would consume so much energy to do that that you'd probably be able to use said energy in a more useful capacity (like...a laser) to slice a Deimos in half. The force of gravity is extremely weak, it's not really good for doing anything weapon-like.
I imagine
Case closed.
FreeSpace's canon is so ambiguous and conflicted that speculation is pretty much the only thing that can be done. Of course, knowing you, you think the idea of conjecture is some sort of bizarre heresy worthy of flapping your arms screaming "CANON CANON CANON!"
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Yes. Ever heard of a flight simulator? They've been around for a very long time.
But they're a totally different thing IMO. Of course you'd do it in the game that revolves around realistic flying even if it would cost you 90% of your game budget to make a good engine, but it's totally unplausible in a game that's supposed to be based on shooting, blowing stuff up and telling a sci-fi story. Not to mention that flight simulators definitely use a helluva lot shortcuts in calculations, which are possible only thanks to many similarities of all planes, while FS wouldn't be able to use any since the shapes, thruster positioning, etc. etc. are so varied.
I'm not saying it was impossible to do that - it was certainly possible, but it would be also very stupid to do it.
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My favorite explanation for lasers is that they're photons traveling in a helix around a graviton core. (But just because it's my favorite doesn't mean it makes a bit of sense. ;) )
Gravity does not work that way. It would consume so much energy to do that that you'd probably be able to use said energy to slice a Deimos in half. The force of gravity is extremely weak, it's not really good for doing anything weapon-like.
Yes, I just happen to like it more than the much more plausible "lasers are plasma (the tech room lied)," "space isn't empty," and "they're slow to make the game fun" explanations. Which is why I'm throwing it up here.
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It just...doesn't work though. It's so crazy it hurts just thinking about it. It's like a Rube Goldberg cannon.
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To say that would imply they don't have have enough planets to make all the juggernauts. There's no reason why they should not.
No, the only point is that an 80 juggernaut fleet is something a single planet could provide resources for and that if the Shivans have an even larger juggernaut fleet, it doesn't necessarily imply that they control millions of systems.
It's not a bad idea/guess that the Shivans might in fact span across millions of systems. However, there's a difference between having an idea and asserting that it must be so.
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unless the shivans harvest energy from stars and convert it to matter of course
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Dark Matter!
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Unobtainium!
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How about a mobile extreme long range beam weapon artillery ship? One that has extendable arrays full of long range beam cannons that can be fired from a safe distance like 30km, detroy the target(s), like several Juggernauts, and jump out before any enemy fighter/bomber even has a chance to get into weapons range? It could also be equipped with extremely quickly charging intra system jump drives to jump around the battle field to get better attack vectors and to avoid incoming bombers or capital ships that jump to their position.
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I wonder if long range beam accuracy issues could be solved by simply pre-targeting them at a node. Have a few dozen or so moljnirs calibrated to saturate the node exit volume and nothing could survive entry.
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ragingloli - that'a an awesome idea for guerilla tactics in nebulas. Send some light fighters with TAGs to light up the enemy and shoot them from some hidden far-away location with artillery-like long range beams.
Targeting nodes always seem like a good idea, but I somehow doubt GTVA would be able to build a blockade capable of stopping a fleet of 80 Sathanes.
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You enemy will just send fighters through and rape your Mjolnirs if you try that.
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And they'll be stopped by patrol shifts around the node. :rolleyes:
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They need some point defense sentry guns that are worth their salt.
Something with a decent punch and a shield generator.
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All they need to do is give them sentries with Morningstars. Besides, I was talking about extending the range of the moljnir beams by not having to aim with them.
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And they'll be stopped by patrol shifts around the node. :rolleyes:
Have you ever tried defending a Mjolnir?
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Mjolnirs may be vulnerable in current shape, but they were experimental tech after all, and I'd say the experiment was a success. Mjolnir beams are the best beams in GTVAs arsenal. Some of their weaknesses could be overcome by adding more armor and shields, and probably some anti-fighter turrets, but I personally would vote for simply creating smaller versions of their beam cannons and mounting them on the ships. Even if you have to cut the damage output in half due to energy restrains, you'd still get a beam supperior to big greens.
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And they'll be stopped by patrol shifts around the node. :rolleyes:
Have you ever tried defending a Mjolnir?
Plenty of times, and I do an exceptionally good job at it.
Regardless, it's common ****ing sense to have something protecting another that defenseless. :doubt:
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This might sound weird, but IMO it has a point;
why not create an extremely large cannon (like 1000,000 mm for instance) to target the Sathani? All the GTVA will have to do is to estimate where the Saths are, point the cannon, and fire. The shell will probaly not stop moving due to Newton's Laws of Motion (however, there might be an object blockading the path, hopefully not). Saths don't have shields, right?
OR else,
counter a Sath with like twenty-five corvettes. They just have to do a flanking manuever. If the Sath tries to move around to counter them, just keep them moving; it's like a seal trying to evade a shark.
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Unfortunately some people fail to accept the use of common sense because it typically wasn't implemented in the Retail Campaign, flank it, sure no problem, though the Sathanas could try countering by deciding to turn the other way and force the attacker to change tactics (You don't want to keep going the same direction and end up meeting with the claws would you? :P) or distract the attackers by sending in offensive craft to force the attackers to use less of its firepower on more targets and expend its forces.
The near-mile caliber gun on the other hand, that's rather impractical to put it simply.
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This might sound weird, but IMO it has a point;
why not create an extremely large cannon (like 1000,000 mm for instance) to target the Sathani? All the GTVA will have to do is to estimate where the Saths are, point the cannon, and fire. The shell will probaly not stop moving due to Newton's Laws of Motion (however, there might be an object blockading the path, hopefully not). Saths don't have shields, right?
A star system is a large place and spans several light hours. Unless you expect the Sathanas to just wait there for hours for this projectile to hit it, the projectiles are moving faster than the speed of light (or use subspace) not really viable.
I'd say a much better solution would be tactically deployable meson bombs. Use the naturally high speed of subspace to deliver the bomb.
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Why not just put the cannon at a node :wtf:
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Space is 3D.
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This might sound weird, but IMO it has a point;
why not create an extremely large cannon (like 1000,000 mm for instance) to target the Sathani? All the GTVA will have to do is to estimate where the Saths are, point the cannon, and fire. The shell will probaly not stop moving due to Newton's Laws of Motion (however, there might be an object blockading the path, hopefully not). Saths don't have shields, right?
OR else,
counter a Sath with like twenty-five corvettes. They just have to do a flanking manuever. If the Sath tries to move around to counter them, just keep them moving; it's like a seal trying to evade a shark.
How do you move it? The vast amount of time required to reload it would be far longer than the time it takes for the sath behind the one you shot to recharge it's jump drives, jump to the gun, and blow it away. Far easier to just make the icanus (odd use of the word "just")
building on what commander zane said, what if the sath jumps out, calls for back up from at least another sath or simply releases hordes of bombers. In the time it takes for you to get it, or it's engines critical, it can jump away to get repaired and have wasted a whole lot of time and energy the corvettes used and gain time for the other Sathanas juggernauts to do who knows what. The Sathanas is sure to gain one if not multiple kills if the corvettes keep at it; shark's eat seals.
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Rather than 25 corvettes I'd use 11 wings of strike craft, in attack groups based around the cheap GTB Boanerges, armed with some Stiletto bomb the size of a Helios (more technically: at least 10k subsystem damage per bomb).
This strike force would look more or less like this:
-3 wings of Boa bombers tasked with killing the Sathanas's engines (one wing per 2 engines; with each engine having 70k HP, they would need to score 7 direct hits on each one; they should come in wings of 5 or 6 to do the job faster)
-3 wings of Perseus fighters that would duke it out with enemy fighters (these ships should also come in wings of 6, one wing near the rear end, 2 on the sides of the front to cover bombers near each engine)
-1 wing of Erynies fighters for giving close escort to the bombers near the main engines (their large firepower would be usefull to quickly kill anything leaving the hangar bay)
-2 wings of Ares fighters, to provide area defence with Trebuchet missiles for the Boas attacking the 4 aux engines (one wing on the left and one on the right side of the Sath; they could actually come in wings of 2 and still do lots of damage).
-A few (2-3) wings of Artemis bombers would keep enemy turrets busy (and under constant attack)
That gives a total of 2-3 wings of 4 ships, 6 wings of 6 ships and 2 wings of 2 ships, or 52 ships max.
The whole idea is to disable the Sathanas, kill off as many fighters as possible, perhaps do some damage to any escorts, and then leave; all in 5-10 minutes not to allow the Shivans much time to swarm the place with fighters.
A single Hecate has around 150 ships on board. Let's say every single strike craft can go on a mission every 3 hours. Assuming there are no losses (or that replacements arrive just as fast as ships are lost) and that all units are dedicated to disabling Sathanasesesi's, each of the 80 Saths would be bombed every 3 days and 8 hours.
With 3 Hecates present, that would go to being disabled daily (or maybe: some Sathanases drifting in space, others needing engines fixed every couple hours).
Now enter the rest of the fleet (minus the few Aeolus cruisers escorting the Hecates) doing supply convoy hunts (or in case of Orions and Hatshepsuts and their strike craft- cruiser and destroyer hunts), and we might just have a chance in buying enough time to see what the Shivans' next unstoppable method of destroying us is.
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This might sound weird, but IMO it has a point;
why not create an extremely large cannon (like 1000,000 mm for instance) to target the Sathani? All the GTVA will have to do is to estimate where the Saths are, point the cannon, and fire. The shell will probaly not stop moving due to Newton's Laws of Motion (however, there might be an object blockading the path, hopefully not). Saths don't have shields, right?
OR else,
counter a Sath with like twenty-five corvettes. They just have to do a flanking manuever. If the Sath tries to move around to counter them, just keep them moving; it's like a seal trying to evade a shark.
How do you move it? The vast amount of time required to reload it would be far longer than the time it takes for the sath behind the one you shot to recharge it's jump drives, jump to the gun, and blow it away. Far easier to just make the icanus (odd use of the word "just")
building on what commander zane said, what if the sath jumps out, calls for back up from at least another sath or simply releases hordes of bombers. In the time it takes for you to get it, or it's engines critical, it can jump away to get repaired and have wasted a whole lot of time and energy the corvettes used and gain time for the other Sathanas juggernauts to do who knows what. The Sathanas is sure to gain one if not multiple kills if the corvettes keep at it; shark's eat seals.
the other problem about 25 corvettes is getting that number of ships into place, I know it is in part due to FS engine limitations but from the way the game plays corvettes are though more common than destroyers are still relatively scares ships they have to release the lysader and actium from the NTF war just to do a little cruiser/destroyer hunt making me think that 25 might be the complement in a fleet
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Rather than 25 corvettes I'd use 11 wings of strike craft, in attack groups based around the cheap GTB Boanerges, armed with some Stiletto bomb the size of a Helios (more technically: at least 10k subsystem damage per bomb).
This strike force would look more or less like this:
-3 wings of Boa bombers tasked with killing the Sathanas's engines (one wing per 2 engines; with each engine having 70k HP, they would need to score 7 direct hits on each one; they should come in wings of 5 or 6 to do the job faster)
-3 wings of Perseus fighters that would duke it out with enemy fighters (these ships should also come in wings of 6, one wing near the rear end, 2 on the sides of the front to cover bombers near each engine)
-1 wing of Erynies fighters for giving close escort to the bombers near the main engines (their large firepower would be usefull to quickly kill anything leaving the hangar bay)
-2 wings of Ares fighters, to provide area defence with Trebuchet missiles for the Boas attacking the 4 aux engines (one wing on the left and one on the right side of the Sath; they could actually come in wings of 2 and still do lots of damage).
-A few (2-3) wings of Artemis bombers would keep enemy turrets busy (and under constant attack)
That gives a total of 2-3 wings of 4 ships, 6 wings of 6 ships and 2 wings of 2 ships, or 52 ships max.
The whole idea is to disable the Sathanas, kill off as many fighters as possible, perhaps do some damage to any escorts, and then leave; all in 5-10 minutes not to allow the Shivans much time to swarm the place with fighters.
A single Hecate has around 150 ships on board. Let's say every single strike craft can go on a mission every 3 hours. Assuming there are no losses (or that replacements arrive just as fast as ships are lost) and that all units are dedicated to disabling Sathanasesesi's, each of the 80 Saths would be bombed every 3 days and 8 hours.
With 3 Hecates present, that would go to being disabled daily (or maybe: some Sathanases drifting in space, others needing engines fixed every couple hours).
Now enter the rest of the fleet (minus the few Aeolus cruisers escorting the Hecates) doing supply convoy hunts (or in case of Orions and Hatshepsuts and their strike craft- cruiser and destroyer hunts), and we might just have a chance in buying enough time to see what the Shivans' next unstoppable method of destroying us is.
This reads like one of those armchair admiral plans that rely on the enemy not doing anything, though. "Assuming that there are no losses" and whatnot.
Given the fighter capacity of a single Sath I'm not confident even a single one of these strikes would work. Remember that Bearbaiting occurred right after the Sath had reamed an entire blockade (presumably including far more than 11 wings of fighters.)