[Woolie Wool]

Shivans might not place the same value on planets as humans, but they need energy (both for their ships and for their bodies), metals and other raw materials, water, and other resources. I imagine they have vast realspace holdings devoted to gathering resources.

[ChronoReverse]

Do we even know that for sure?  We know they have gas miner ships and have supply lines but we have no idea where the raw materials come from or if they even need anything beyond fuel/energy/parts supplies.  For all we know, the Shivans could have a "replicator" type manufacturing process that allows them to use interstellar gas to construct ships.  Certainly they've never shown any interest in planet based resources nor have we seen or heard of Shivan land ruins or controlled planets.  At least we're constantly reminded of the manufacturing bases of the Vasudans and Terrans.  Perhaps the Shivans really are "birthed out of subspace" as the monologue speculated and that's where the transport ships really came out of.


Besides, the lower limit of the Shivan fleet of 80ish juggernauts doesn't even require more than a single planet's worth of resources unless we assume that they're principally constructed out of unobtainium that's somehow spread thinly and evenly across the universe.  Planets are huge compared to juggernauts much less even a single star system.

[NGTM-1R]

I imagine

Case closed.

[FlayedOne]

Of course I took Freespace's speed of light from the speed their lasers travel at.

There's the explanation that blobs are...well...blobs of ejected plasma.

Well, they are called lasers, not plasma cannons for a reason I suppose. It's also worth noting, that the only reason spaceships trawel slower than light in FS game seems to be friction or something of obviously similar effect(no mention of relativistic physics being true in this universe), which means there is no problem at all with small projectiles traveling FTL. I see no inconsistencies.

The closest star to Sol is Alpha Centauri and even if the Shivans had the capability to accelerate to nearly c (the energy cost of which would make supernova'ing Capella look trivial) that's still 4 years of travel.  Try to do so from random locations of the galaxy (100,000 lightyears in diameter) and it's rather obvious that it'll still take a long time for the Shivans to arrive.

Sol is pretty much on the outer rims of our galaxy. I remember reading some papers that postulated average distance between neighbour stars in galactic core as lower than 0.1 ly. You also have to keep in mind that it's possible they have a pretty detailed map of our galaxy, as well as technology to reopen capella nodes as soon as the nebula cools enough(I don't know, probably a few years?).

Do we even know that for sure?  We know they have gas miner ships and have supply lines but we have no idea where the raw materials come from or if they even need anything beyond fuel/energy/parts supplies.  For all we know, the Shivans could have a "replicator" type manufacturing process that allows them to use interstellar gas to construct ships.  Certainly they've never shown any interested in planet based resources nor have we seen or heard of Shivan land ruins or controlled planets.  At least we're constantly reminded of the manufacturing bases of the Vasudans and Terrans.


Besides, the lower limit of the Shivan fleet of 80ish juggernauts doesn't even require more than a single planet's worth of resources unless we assume that they're principally constructed out of unobtainium that's somehow spread thinly and evenly across the universe.  Planets are huge compared to even juggernauts much less even a single star system.

Well it wouldn't be that hard for an advanced civilization to use even hydrogen to create everything else. They use fusion reactors on their ships after all.

[Polpolion]

Of course I took Freespace's speed of light from the speed their lasers travel at.

There's the explanation that blobs are...well...blobs of ejected plasma.

Well, they are called lasers, not plasma cannons for a reason I suppose. It's also worth noting, that the only reason spaceships trawel slower than light in FS game seems to be friction or something of obviously similar effect(no mention of relativistic physics being true in this universe), which means there is no problem at all with small projectiles traveling FTL. I see no inconsistencies.

I have a little mod that will blow your mind. Play the test mission included.

Hint: Freespace's physics aren't defined by what I changed here. Blobs aren't lasers. Light travels instantaneously in Freespace. There is no friction in Freespace. Ships decelerate using the same engines the accelerate with.

EDIT: yes, I spent 5 minutes making this mod. quiet.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[ChronoReverse]

Sol is pretty much on the outer rims of our galaxy. I remember reading some papers that postulated average distance between neighbour stars in galactic core as lower than 0.1 ly.

Eh, we're in one of the arms but in terms of diameter, we're only about 1/2-2/3rds out.  Besides, the core (bar actually since the MWG seems to not be a pure spiral) of the Milky Way is only about a quarter of the diameter the long way.  Stars are obviously closer in that area but not in our neighborhood =)

[FlayedOne]

Hint: Freespace's physics aren't defined by what I changed here. Blobs aren't lasers. Light travels instantaneously in Freespace. There is no friction in Freespace. Ships decelerate using the same engines the accelerate with.

EDIT: yes, I spent 5 minutes making this mod. quiet.

Really cool mod:D. But you really need to make fighters more manouverable:P

I don't know how you got those conclusions. There is obviously no visual difference between how the engines are working when decelerating and standing still. There is also no thrusters directed to the front of the ships. Also what about light speed in Freespace? Lasers got faster, but still do not travel instantaneously(what a cool word to try and spell right:P ).

Eh, we're in one of the arms but in terms of diameter, we're only about 1/2-2/3rds out.  Besides, the core (bar actually since the MWG seems to not be a pure spiral) of the Milky Way is only about a quarter of the diameter the long way.  Stars are obviously closer in that area but not in our neighborhood =)

Okay, I admit. I exaggerated a bit:P. Sol is around 27 000 ly from the galactic center, while arms span as far as 40 000ly and galactic core spans 10 000 ly which puts as somewhere around the middle of the arm. That doesn't change the fact, that we cannot think of 4ly as a standart distance between closest stars. There is many times more stars inside the core than outside of it if I remember correctly.

I tried finding a detailed map of milky way to locate the stars from the node map, but failed:P.

[Woolie Wool]

Do we even know that for sure?  We know they have gas miner ships and have supply lines but we have no idea where the raw materials come from or if they even need anything beyond fuel/energy/parts supplies.  For all we know, the Shivans could have a "replicator" type manufacturing process that allows them to use interstellar gas to construct ships.  Certainly they've never shown any interest in planet based resources nor have we seen or heard of Shivan land ruins or controlled planets.  At least we're constantly reminded of the manufacturing bases of the Vasudans and Terrans.  Perhaps the Shivans really are "birthed out of subspace" as the monologue speculated and that's where the transport ships really came out of.


Besides, the lower limit of the Shivan fleet of 80ish juggernauts doesn't even require more than a single planet's worth of resources unless we assume that they're principally constructed out of unobtainium that's somehow spread thinly and evenly across the universe.  Planets are huge compared to juggernauts much less even a single star system.

Interstellar medium doesn't supply enough material to be worth anything--it's so unimaginably sparse that it's utterly useless. They're going to need planets or asteroids to obtain that much material. I doubt that they have no interest in planets; they more likely just have no interest in living on them. They also probably consider it counterproductive to "settle down" in Terran-Vasudan systems until the Terran and Vasudan races have been annihilated due to the counter-attack risk, but no such risk is present in their own home territory. Also, you can't just take any old material off a planet, you're going to need certain materials to build juggernauts, many of which are likely very rare, and this is compounded by the fact that only the crust of a geologically "live" planet is really useful for mining operations--the mantle is too homogenous and both the mantle and core would be extremely difficult to mine from. You're probably going to need many planets to gather all the rare materials needed to construct 80 juggernauts. There's also no reason for the Shivans not to have vast holdings when their own systems are unassailable and they can choose where to fight a war.

The Shivans are, for all intents and purposes, invincible. They can lose battles or individual fleets or formations, but they have so many that the GTVA cannot really do any permanent damage to them.

[Polpolion]

Hint: Freespace's physics aren't defined by what I changed here. Blobs aren't lasers. Light travels instantaneously in Freespace. There is no friction in Freespace. Ships decelerate using the same engines the accelerate with.

EDIT: yes, I spent 5 minutes making this mod. quiet.

Really cool mod:D. But you really need to make fighters more manouverable:P

I don't know how you got those conclusions. There is obviously no visual difference between how the engines are working when decelerating and standing still. There is also no thrusters directed to the front of the ships. Also what about light speed in Freespace? Lasers got faster, but still do not travel instantaneously(what a cool word to try and spell right:P ).

If it were friction causing ships to slow down in Freespace, you would not be able to enter a deceleration rate in the table file. "Lasers" in freespace actually aren't lasers. No matter what crazy stuff you do, you can't form light into a blob like that. Also, if light really traveled at 500m/s, you'd be able to tell when ships turned, how the shadows would grow on their surface. But it doesn't, it's instantaneous.

[FlayedOne]

If it were friction causing ships to slow down in Freespace, you would not be able to enter a deceleration rate in the table file.

And what was the alternative? 10 year old game's engine calculating aerodynamic properties based on model shapes, or what?

"Lasers" in freespace actually aren't lasers. No matter what crazy stuff you do, you can't form light into a blob like that. Also, if light really traveled at 500m/s, you'd be able to tell when ships turned, how the shadows would grow on their surface. But it doesn't, it's instantaneous.

I say you'd be able to form light into a blob like that - you just wouldn't be able to see it. It's also not really a question of whether light really travels at that speed in FS universe because it clearly does, but whether all light travels at that speed. Since friction would suggest that FSs space is not void, but instead is filled with some medium, it's perfectly possible to have:
-non-newtonian behaviour of ships
-visible lasers
-different speeds of light depending on wavelenght
The only problem is that, since we suppose that visible light travels nearly instantaneously, those lasers would have to have longer wavelenghts then visible light meaning they're not lasers... damn:P so close:D

To be honest I find those arguments(table entry and visibility) on the same level I find arguments about Freespace ships hulls being utterly invincible untill there hps go do to 0 in which case they suddenly explode. Sure - the game works like that, but doesn't necessarily translate onto the universe.

[General Battuta]

If the Shivans were 'birthed from the flux of subspace', and if subspace is a tremendously energetic environment (as it is portrayed), they may extract all the resources they could ever need from subspace alone.

Energy is matter, matter can be made into any form required given adequate energy.

[ChronoReverse]

and this is compounded by the fact that only the crust of a geologically "live" planet is really useful for mining operations--the mantle is too homogenous and both the mantle and core would be extremely difficult to mine from. You're probably going to need many planets to gather all the rare materials needed to construct 80 juggernauts.

And here is yet another example of No Sense of Scale (warning, TVTropes will ruin your life).

[Woolie Wool]

If it were friction causing ships to slow down in Freespace, you would not be able to enter a deceleration rate in the table file.

And what was the alternative? 10 year old game's engine calculating aerodynamic properties based on model shapes, or what?

Yes. Ever heard of a flight simulator? They've been around for a very long time.

If the Shivans were 'birthed from the flux of subspace', and if subspace is a tremendously energetic environment (as it is portrayed), they may extract all the resources they could ever need from subspace alone.

Energy is matter, matter can be made into any form required given adequate energy.

"Birthed from the flux of subspace' is vague, poetic language used by the Ancients in equally vague, poetic ruminations on an enemy they knew nothing about. Their entire view of the Shivans was couched in superstition and religious ideas; they cannot be taken as a reliable authority on the Shivans.

[Woolie Wool]

and this is compounded by the fact that only the crust of a geologically "live" planet is really useful for mining operations--the mantle is too homogenous and both the mantle and core would be extremely difficult to mine from. You're probably going to need many planets to gather all the rare materials needed to construct 80 juggernauts.

And here is yet another example of No Sense of Scale (warning, TVTropes will ruin your life).

To say that would imply they don't have have enough planets to make all the juggernauts. There's no reason why they should not.

[Qent]

My favorite explanation for lasers is that they're photons traveling in a helix around a graviton core. (But just because it's my favorite doesn't mean it makes a bit of sense. )

[General Battuta]

"Birthed from the flux of subspace' is vague, poetic language used by the Ancients in equally vague, poetic ruminations on an enemy they knew nothing about. Their entire view of the Shivans was couched in superstition and religious ideas; they cannot be taken as a reliable authority on the Shivans.

It was from Bosch regarding the beliefs of the Ancients, not the Ancients directly, and like all things in FS canon it is ambiguous. There are a few mentions of how the Shivans may be native to subspace, but it's essentially immaterial: the point is that subspace may supply essentially unlimited resources to them.

[Woolie Wool]

My favorite explanation for lasers is that they're photons traveling in a helix around a graviton core. (But just because it's my favorite doesn't mean it makes a bit of sense. )

Gravity does not work that way. It would consume so much energy to do that that you'd probably be able to use said energy in a more useful capacity (like...a laser) to slice a Deimos in half. The force of gravity is extremely weak, it's not really good for doing anything weapon-like.

I imagine

Case closed.

FreeSpace's canon is so ambiguous and conflicted that speculation is pretty much the only thing that can be done. Of course, knowing you, you think the idea of conjecture is some sort of bizarre heresy worthy of flapping your arms screaming "CANON CANON CANON!"

[FlayedOne]

Yes. Ever heard of a flight simulator? They've been around for a very long time.

But they're a totally different thing IMO. Of course you'd do it in the game that revolves around realistic flying even if it would cost you 90% of your game budget to make a good engine, but it's totally unplausible in a game that's supposed to be based on shooting, blowing stuff up and telling a sci-fi story. Not to mention that flight simulators definitely use a helluva lot shortcuts in calculations, which are possible only thanks to many similarities of all planes, while FS wouldn't be able to use any since the shapes, thruster positioning, etc. etc. are so varied.

I'm not saying it was impossible to do that - it was certainly possible, but it would be also very stupid to do it.

[Qent]

My favorite explanation for lasers is that they're photons traveling in a helix around a graviton core. (But just because it's my favorite doesn't mean it makes a bit of sense. )

Gravity does not work that way. It would consume so much energy to do that that you'd probably be able to use said energy to slice a Deimos in half. The force of gravity is extremely weak, it's not really good for doing anything weapon-like.

Yes, I just happen to like it more than the much more plausible "lasers are plasma (the tech room lied)," "space isn't empty," and "they're slow to make the game fun" explanations. Which is why I'm throwing it up here.

[Woolie Wool]

It just...doesn't work though. It's so crazy it hurts just thinking about it. It's like a Rube Goldberg cannon.