Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: General Battuta on December 14, 2009, 01:01:33 am
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I guess even religion isn't immune to rules-lawyering, darn it.
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hey, at least it aint D&D :p
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No, actually, that doesn't say anything at all.
Man, religion. It really is like D&D. People don't care about playing by the spirit of the game, they just want to finagle the rules to get maximum advantage for their characters.
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Jesus always rolls 20s.
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Is Jesus divine rank 0? He qualifies as a demigod, right, not a full deity?
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Jesus always rolls 20s.
dunno bout that, i think he rolled a one after being stuck to a cross after awhile :p
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Is Jesus divine rank 0? He qualifies as a demigod, right, not a full deity?
He is simultaneously God and man. At the same time.
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Is Jesus divine rank 0? He qualifies as a demigod, right, not a full deity?
He is simultaneously God and man. At the same time.
Yalp. Aptly put. Another way to state this is that Jesus was God in the flesh.
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So that's divine rank 0, right? Or do I have to go look up the rules for avatars? What's the Christian/Muslim/Jewish god, anyway, a major deity or an overgod?
(I was raised Christian, I know how Jesus works, thanks.)
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:rolleyes: What is this, Battuta? D&D for faith/religion?
In Christian, Jewish, and Moslem faith, there is only ONE God, which you're well aware of. I'm not familiar with the entire scope of Islamic views on God, as I'm a Christian, but there is certainly no power above God, and no power can commit action without the "concent" of God, so-to-say. That, I'm sure, is consitant regardless of the religion.
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I'm trying to figure out what Jesus is in the D&D ruleset for gods so we know whether he always rolls twenties. Only major deities automatically roll twenties.
Meanwhile we have to figure out whether God/Allah/Yahweh is a major deity or an overgod. I'm leaning towards major deity since he actively takes an interest in the world and he has competition from other pantheons.
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The amount of sheer ignorance and misinformation going on during the last page or two really is hilarious. I'd make a comment about the issues that "sola scriptura" tends to have broadcasting themselves loud and clear, but I don't really feel like going down that road. So let's instead take a look at that old familiar story that Topgun quoted, when Charlton Heston came down from the mountain and got pissed at his people. "Thou shalt not make a graven image," giant golden calf, yadda yadda yadda. So, boys and girls, who can tell me what the actual commandment-breaking in this instance was? Was it just the act of making a giant gold bull for the hell of it? Nope. Was it treating said golden bull as some sort of metaphorical symbol for God? Nope again. Was it because they were treating that particular physical golden bull as if were God himself? Bingo! The prohibition isn't about making a simple image of whatever...it's about making a simple image and then venerating said image as a divinity in and of itself, about worshiping that golden calf as Baal incarnate. Intention is everything here. Hanging a cross on a wall, or putting up a statue of Mary in a church, means nothing in and of itself; they're symbols for theological principles, not physical deities toward which worship is directed in and of themselves. The Catholic Church has a term for such objects, and even actions, in the case of making the sign of the cross: they're "sacramentals," objects and practices that provide a physical reference to aid in the understanding of one's faith. The only "idolatry" going on here is that generated by a misinterpretation of the word.
And oh, Topgun, I do find the claim that "it doesn't matter what Jesus died on" amusing from a practical standpoint, considering what the worldly symbol of Christianity has been almost since its inception. I understand your underlying point, but I'd argue that even the visual aspect matters a great deal.
(Keep that up, Battuta, it's quite amusing. :D)
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In that case, He definately always rolls a twenty. :cool:
And if you do kill him, don't worry... He'll be back in three days. ;)
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Um, I was, like, totally gonna split this thread but, um, I can't make out where one discussion ends and another one, like, begins. There are books, and D&D, and Jesus (pronounced Hay-Soos), so... carry on.
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The amount of sheer ignorance and misinformation going on during the last page or two really is hilarious. I'd make a comment about the issues that "sola scriptura" tends to have broadcasting themselves loud and clear, but I don't really feel like going down that road. So let's instead take a look at that old familiar story that Topgun quoted, when Charlton Heston came down from the mountain and got pissed at his people. "Thou shalt not make a graven image," giant golden calf, yadda yadda yadda. So, boys and girls, who can tell me what the actual commandment-breaking in this instance was? Was it just the act of making a giant gold bull for the hell of it? Nope. Was it treating said golden bull as some sort of metaphorical symbol for God? Nope again. Was it because they were treating that particular physical golden bull as if were God himself? Bingo! The prohibition isn't about making a simple image of whatever...it's about making a simple image and then venerating said image as a divinity in and of itself, about worshiping that golden calf as Baal incarnate. Intention is everything here. Hanging a cross on a wall, or putting up a statue of Mary in a church, means nothing in and of itself; they're symbols for theological principles, not physical deities toward which worship is directed in and of themselves. The Catholic Church has a term for such objects, and even actions, in the case of making the sign of the cross: they're "sacramentals," objects and practices that provide a physical reference to aid in the understanding of one's faith. The only "idolatry" going on here is that generated by a misinterpretation of the word.
And oh, Topgun, I do find the claim that "it doesn't matter what Jesus died on" amusing from a practical standpoint, considering what the worldly symbol of Christianity has been almost since its inception. I understand your underlying point, but I'd argue that even the visual aspect matters a great deal.
(Keep that up, Battuta, it's quite amusing. :D)
we're not fools mongoose... but those idols of mary in churches aren't there just to look pretty... they're worshipped.
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In that case, He definately always rolls a twenty. :cool:
Not if he's DR 0.
And if you do kill him, don't worry... He'll be back in three days. ;)
I can cast contingent resurrection without a divine rank.
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we're not fools mongoose... but those idols of mary in churches aren't there just to look pretty... they're worshipped.
And you know this how exactly? For all the bullcrap regularly feed about Marian veneration, even in Catholic publications, I've never seen it actually happen.
EDIT: In fact, I have to state that in my twenty-odd years of Catholicism before taking up the cause of humanistic deconversion, and also having regularly visited Lutheran, Menonite, and Baptist churches, I can't recall ever encountering a Marian "idol" even when the Church I attended every Sunday was Saint Mary's. The closest thing that comes to mind and the only actual depiction of Mary was that Saint Mary's did have a quite beautiful Pieta copy, but it was in the Parish Hall.
One could more readily argue that the statue of Gregory the Great out front of Saint Gregory the Great up the hill in Scripps is an "idol" even though repeated vandalism of its bronze quill was more its fate while I still attended.
Marian images are quite commonplace expressions of Catholic piety, it's true, but they typicially are neither explictly Mary alone, being always a twofer with the Baby Jesus, nor placed in a church; they are personal items, placed on walls as a visual reminder, or under mattresses for the protection of the child who sleeps there.
EDIT THE SECOND: And not only are you wrong...you didn't read Mongoose's post, thus proving yourself exactly what you say you're not.
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Contingent Resurrection is a one-minute delay, not 29 hours. :P
Besides, Jesus would fall under Greater Deity, and God himself (post Old Testament) would be a well-known overdiety with a few quirks.
Alternatively, Jesus is an Avatar and God has the Divine Creation salient divine ability. Jesus also has Banestrike (against outsiders, evil), Gift of Life, and True Knowledge.
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Didn't Jesus die of hit point loss? Or a failed Constitution save?
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he got to 0hp and the continuously failed to stabilise himself, and... well, as we all know, the rest is history :p
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I think it was a fortitude save. Crucifixion forces a fortitude save (DC 10 + consititution modifier) every 15 minutes. The cross also had a Damage Ability (Constitution) enchantment, once an hour.
Jesus also had the Regeneration ability. :P
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And you know this how exactly? For all the bullcrap regularly feed about Marian veneration, even in Catholic publications, I've never seen it actually happen.
EDIT: In fact, I have to state that in my twenty-odd years of Catholicism before taking up the cause of humanistic deconversion, and also having regularly visited Lutheran, Menonite, and Baptist churches, I can't recall ever encountering a Marian "idol" even when the Church I attended every Sunday was Saint Mary's. The closest thing that comes to mind and the only actual depiction of Mary was that Saint Mary's did have a quite beautiful Pieta copy, but it was in the Parish Hall.
One could more readily argue that the statue of Gregory the Great out front of Saint Gregory the Great up the hill in Scripps is an "idol" even though repeated vandalism of its bronze quill was more its fate while I still attended.
Marian images are quite commonplace expressions of Catholic piety, it's true, but they typicially are neither explictly Mary alone, being always a twofer with the Baby Jesus, nor placed in a church; they are personal items, placed on walls as a visual reminder, or under mattresses for the protection of the child who sleeps there.
It's not an event you wait around to witness; it's a general attitude ingrained in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The liturgy of these traditions is chalk full of rites and devotions dedicated to Mary. She even has side chapels dedicated to her in many cathedrals. You may not have been overwhelmed with examples of it in your own experiences-- which is completely plausible, since Catholicism in the U.S. is not a complete cross-section of the denomination-- but it's definitely there.
Ultimately, I don't think anyone is going to get anywhere in this debate, least of all the people who feel a personal stake in it. If you think Marian veneration is idolatry, that's pretty much the end of it; you're probably not a Roman Catholic. If you think Ikons are graven images, you're probably not Orthodox. It's all contingent upon people's cultural backgrounds and their own ideas about the nature of god. If a consensus hasn't been reached in the two millennia of the religion's history, I doubt it's going to happen here.
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I skipped four pages and went from Twilight bashing to Jesus's hitpoints, something about Catholicism and "You're wrong". I actually checked again to make sure I was still in the same thread.
Only on HLP.
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It's not an event you wait around to witness; it's a general attitude ingrained in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The liturgy of these traditions is chalk full of rites and devotions dedicated to Mary. She even has side chapels dedicated to her in many cathedrals. You may not have been overwhelmed with examples of it in your own experiences-- which is completely plausible, since Catholicism in the U.S. is not a complete cross-section of the denomination-- but it's definitely there.
I assume you can provide specifics then? Because I honestly don't believe it's anything nearly as much as anyone here is making it out to be.
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I think it was a fortitude save. Crucifixion forces a fortitude save (DC 10 + consititution modifier) every 15 minutes. The cross also had a Damage Ability (Constitution) enchantment, once an hour.
Well, then, he can't be a greater deity, can he?
Jesus also had the Regeneration ability. :P
Pffft, then he wouldn't have died.
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we're not fools mongoose... but those idols of mary in churches aren't there just to look pretty... they're worshipped.
There's a wonderful irony in that statement, considering that you're sitting there telling me, an active practitioner of the denomination, what I believe.
It's not an event you wait around to witness; it's a general attitude ingrained in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The liturgy of these traditions is chalk full of rites and devotions dedicated to Mary. She even has side chapels dedicated to her in many cathedrals. You may not have been overwhelmed with examples of it in your own experiences-- which is completely plausible, since Catholicism in the U.S. is not a complete cross-section of the denomination-- but it's definitely there.
I assume you can provide specifics then? Because I honestly don't believe it's anything nearly as much as anyone here is making it out to be.
I can confirm that larger churches (such as basilicas) tend to have side chapels/shrines dedicated to a particular veneration of Mary, and even my own home parish has a statue of her off to the side near the front (Joseph gets to chill in the back, for whatever reason). That being said, the spirit of what you wrote still holds true, as these images are emphatically not worshiped, at least not in any legitimate sense of that word. Ford Prefect does have a point in that the other side of the debate most likely just isn't going to accept that, but there it is just the same.
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So that's divine rank 0, right? Or do I have to go look up the rules for avatars? What's the Christian/Muslim/Jewish god, anyway, a major deity or an overgod?
Compared to D&D "gods", on their scale?
Uber-super-extra-massive-ultimate over-god
In Christian, Jewish, and Moslem faith, there is only ONE God, which you're well aware of. I'm not familiar with the entire scope of Islamic views on God, as I'm a Christian, but there is certainly no power above God, and no power can commit action without the "concent" of God, so-to-say. That, I'm sure, is consitant regardless of the religion.
I've read the Koran... it's the same as the Bible really overall. And so is Allah. Same thing, different name.
I wouldn't be surprised if God came down tomrrow and said. "You morons. I'm neither the Lord, or Allah or Jehowh. Call me Bob!"
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I wouldn't be surprised if God came down tomrrow and said. "You morons. I'm neither the Lord, or Allah or Jehowh. Call me Bob!"
That would be so freaking awesome.
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I wouldn't be surprised if God came down tomrrow and said. "You morons. I'm neither the Lord, or Allah or Jehowh. Call me Bob!"
That would be so freaking awesome.
I wouldn't have to be an atheist anymore! That could take some adjustment.
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I think the D&D angle needs its own topic, its awesome. I was avoiding the Twilight discussion because, well, its Twilight. The D&D angle is made from pure "win" as the kids say :)
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Totally. Two pages of off-topic justifies a split. Even if it is good off-topic.
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The pure blashpemy and total rules lawyer geekdom makes me giggle :)
I would be horrifying to my namesakes.
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I'm surprised the Emperor of Mankind hasn't made an appearance. :P
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Jesus saves.
Everyone else takes normal damage.
Sorry, I had to...
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we're not fools mongoose... but those idols of mary in churches aren't there just to look pretty... they're worshipped.
There's a wonderful irony in that statement, considering that you're sitting there telling me, an active practitioner of the denomination, what I believe.
It's not an event you wait around to witness; it's a general attitude ingrained in Catholic and Orthodox theology. The liturgy of these traditions is chalk full of rites and devotions dedicated to Mary. She even has side chapels dedicated to her in many cathedrals. You may not have been overwhelmed with examples of it in your own experiences-- which is completely plausible, since Catholicism in the U.S. is not a complete cross-section of the denomination-- but it's definitely there.
I assume you can provide specifics then? Because I honestly don't believe it's anything nearly as much as anyone here is making it out to be.
I can confirm that larger churches (such as basilicas) tend to have side chapels/shrines dedicated to a particular veneration of Mary, and even my own home parish has a statue of her off to the side near the front (Joseph gets to chill in the back, for whatever reason). That being said, the spirit of what you wrote still holds true, as these images are emphatically not worshiped, at least not in any legitimate sense of that word. Ford Prefect does have a point in that the other side of the debate most likely just isn't going to accept that, but there it is just the same.
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I didn't mean to insult you or your religion. but my point still stands, Mary is an idol, so is the cross.
you say that are not truly worshiped. I don't think you understand the meaning of idolatry.
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
people with these qualities do not worship per se, yet this is idolatry. idolatry is about giving devotion to anything other than God, not just praying to them. (of course Catholics do pray to Mary, even though it is never stated in the Bible to do so)
also the Cross was never used by first Christians. The cross, like I said before, is a pagan idol.
Pre-Christian cross-like symbols
The cross-shaped sign, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both East and West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization. It is supposed to have been used not just for its ornamental value, but also with religious significance.[1]
Some have sought to attach to the widespread use of this sign, in particular in its swastika form, a real ethnographic importance. It may have represented the apparatus used in kindling fire, and thus as the symbol of sacred fire [2] or as a symbol of the sun,[3] denoting its daily rotation. It has also been interpreted as the mystic representation of lightning or of the god of the tempest, and even the emblem of the Aryan pantheon and the primitive Aryan civilization.
Another symbol that has been connected with the cross is the ansated cross (ankh or crux ansata) of the ancient Egyptians, which often appears as a symbolic sign in the hands of the goddess Sekhet, and appears as a hieroglyphic sign of life or of the living.[4] In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross (Gayet, "Les monuments coptes du Musée de Boulaq" in "Mémoires de le mission française du Caire", VIII, fasc. III, 1889, p. 18, pl. XXXI–XXXII & LXX–LXXI).
In the Bronze Age we meet in different parts of Europe a more accurate representation of the cross, as conceived in Christian art, and in this shape it was soon widely diffused. This more precise characterization coincides with a corresponding general change in customs and beliefs. The cross is now met with, in various forms, on many objects: fibulas, cinctures, earthenware fragments, and on the bottom of drinking vessels. De Mortillet is of opinion that such use of the sign was not merely ornamental, but rather a symbol of consecration, especially in the case of objects pertaining to burial. In the proto-Etruscan cemetery of Golasecca every tomb has a vase with a cross engraved on it. True crosses of more or less artistic design have been found in Tiryns, at Mycenæ, in Crete, and on a fibula from Vulci.
The material in this section is a slightly abbreviated copy of text in the public-domain Catholic Encyclopedia reproduced in full in Wikisource.
also it doesn't make any sense to use a cross in worship. If your son died from a car crash, would you use an image of a car in your worship? think about it, why would God want people to worship Him using the same object of execution that was used to murder His son?
some more interesting info:
Early Christian use
During the first two centuries of Christianity, the cross may have been rare in Christian iconography, as it depicts a purposely painful and gruesome method of public execution. The Ichthys, or fish symbol, was used by early Christians. The Chi-Rho monogram, which was adopted by Constantine I in the fourth century as his banner (see labarum), was another Early Christian symbol of wide use.
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I don't think you understand the meaning of idolatry.
However, unless you are reading a different translation than I am, neither of those instances is idolatry. 1st Commandment says 'no other god before Me.' Pretty straightforward, and neither Mary nor the cross are held higher than God. 2nd Commandment says 'no carved or graven image of heaven or hell.' Also straightforward, also not a violation, since both Mary and the cross are worldly.
The cross, like I said before, is a pagan idol.
And Christmas, little fun fact, was a pagan holiday. Christianity absorbed little blips like that to build a little more ethos with potential converts. Fact is, we don't really know what day Jesus was born. That said, what it was before is moot. What it is now is a symbol of Christ's suffering.
If your son died from a car crash, would you use an image of a car in your worship? think about it, why would God want people to worship Him using the same object of execution that was used to murder His son?
Does not follow. Jesus's death was not an accident. That could be attributed to wanting to symbolize the immense pain and suffering for us without skirting the line about not making any graven images of heaven.
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I don't think you understand the meaning of idolatry.
1.However, unless you are reading a different translation than I am, neither of those instances is idolatry. 1st Commandment says 'no other god before Me.' Pretty straightforward, and neither Mary nor the cross are held higher than God. 2nd Commandment says 'no carved or graven image of heaven or hell.' Also straightforward, also not a violation, since both Mary and the cross are worldly.
The cross, like I said before, is a pagan idol.
2.And Christmas, little fun fact, was a pagan holiday. Christianity absorbed little blips like that to build a little more ethos with potential converts. Fact is, we don't really know what day Jesus was born. That said, what it was before is moot. What it is now is a symbol of Christ's suffering.
If your son died from a car crash, would you use an image of a car in your worship? think about it, why would God want people to worship Him using the same object of execution that was used to murder His son?
3.Does not follow. Jesus's death was not an accident. That could be attributed to wanting to symbolize the immense pain and suffering for us without skirting the line about not making any graven images of heaven.
1.
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
straight from the Bible.
2. And that makes it okay?
3. Using an image to worship is idolatry. The Hebrews didn't use an image, the first Christians didn't use an image, no where in the Bible does it say that we should use the cross in worship.
cross worship, just like saint worship, Christmas, Easters, All Saints Day, ect, was all added later to make conversion easier. This was not done to promote true Christianity, but to make the church more powerful by making more converts.
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Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
1. Straight from Paul, whereas my counter argument is direct from God through Moses.
2. And that makes it not okay? My point was that an object's origins have nothing to do with its purposes presently. If that were true, celebrating Christmas on the day it is would be some kind of blasphemy, seeing as it used to be a pagan tradition.
3. Worshipping an image is idolatry. Using an image to worship is not necessarily the same thing. Once again, regardless of intention, adoption of those symbols furthered the spread of the message of Christ. Question: Do you (or did you, as the case may be) worship the cross or God and Jesus? It's an important distinction to be made.
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Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
1. Straight from Paul, whereas my counter argument is direct from God through Moses.
2. And that makes it not okay? My point was that an object's origins have nothing to do with its purposes presently. If that were true, celebrating Christmas on the day it is would be some kind of blasphemy, seeing as it used to be a pagan tradition.
3. Worshipping an image is idolatry. Using an image to worship is not necessarily the same thing. Once again, regardless of intention, adoption of those symbols furthered the spread of the message of Christ. Question: Do you (or did you, as the case may be) worship the cross or God and Jesus? It's an important distinction to be made.
1.
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2. of course that makes it not okay! the example of the golden calf shows that.
when Aaron said that the festival was for Yaweh, did that make it okay?
3.
or on Earth beneath[/b], or in the waters under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. For I, Yaweh your God, am a jealous God.
Besides, you just said that the cross was added later on by the church. who decides how to worship God? The Church, or God Himself?
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1. Really? You just quoted a guy who was talking about the Bible back when he wasn't in it to justify something he said (talking Paul here).
2. The golden calf is explicitly stated to be used to worship various unnamed "gods" in that very passage, not God as in Yahweh!
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [a] who will go before us...They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'
If you are going to bring up examples, bring up the whole example.
3. If I may ask, what on Earth (heh) is the cross a likeness of? As for the other point, I'll tell you when I find where God tells people how to worship in the Bible.
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1. Really? You just quoted a guy who was talking about the Bible back when he wasn't in it to justify something he said (talking Paul here).
2. The golden calf is explicitly stated to be used to worship various unnamed "gods" in that very passage, not God as in Yahweh!
When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [a] who will go before us...They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'
If you are going to bring up examples, bring up the whole example.
3. If I may ask, what on Earth (heh) is the cross a likeness of? As for the other point, I'll tell you when I find where God tells people how to worship in the Bible.
1. so you are saying Paul was wrong then? I guess you don't believe in most of Greek Scriptures then.
2.
He [Aaron] took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.
5.Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow shall be a feast to Jehovah."
Aaron himself made the idol (as a calf) and said it was for Jehovah.
AND yes I did bring up the whole account,
also, the Bible clearly shows that it is NOT okay to make an image to worship God.
Exodus 32
1And the people see that Moses is delaying to come down from the mount, and the people assemble against Aaron, and say unto him, `Rise, make for us gods who go before us, for this Moses -- the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt -- we have not known what hath happened to him.'
2And Aaron saith unto them, `Break off the rings of gold which [are] in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring in unto me;'
3and all the people themselves break off the rings of gold which [are] in their ears, and bring in unto Aaron,
4and he receiveth from their hand, and doth fashion it with a graving tool, and doth make it a molten calf, and they say, `These thy gods, O Israel, who brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'
5And Aaron seeth, and buildeth an altar before it, and Aaron calleth, and saith, `A festival to Jehovah -- to-morrow;'
now lets stop right here for a sec.
the Israelites wanted to have a festival, supposedly in honor to Jehovah, so they made a golden calf to use in their "worship of Jehovah"
what happened next?
And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go, descend, for thy people whom thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt hath done corruptly,
8they have turned aside hastily from the way that I have commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten calf, and bow themselves to it, and sacrifice to it, and say, These thy gods, O Israel, who brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'
9And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `I have seen this people, and lo, it [is] a stiff-necked people;
10and now, let Me alone, and My anger doth burn against them, and I consume them, and I make thee become a great nation.'
11And Moses appeaseth the face of Jehovah his God, and saith, `Why, O Jehovah, doth Thine anger burn against Thy people, whom Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a strong hand?
12why do the Egyptians speak, saying, For evil He brought them out to slay them among mountains, and to consume them from off the face of the ground? turn back from the heat of Thine anger, and repent of the evil against Thy people.
13`Be mindful of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, Thy servants, to whom Thou hast sworn by Thyself, and unto whom Thou speakest: I multiply your seed as stars of the heavens, and all this land, as I have said, I give to your seed, and they have inherited to the age;'
14and Jehovah repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.
15And Moses turneth, and goeth down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony [are] in his hand, tables written on both their sides, on this and on that [are] they written;
16and the tables are the work of God, and the writing is the writing of God, graven on the tables.
17And Joshua heareth the voice of the people in their shouting, and saith unto Moses, `A noise of battle in the camp!'
18and he saith, `It is not the voice of the crying of might, nor is it the voice of the crying of weakness -- a voice of singing I am hearing.'
19And it cometh to pass, when he hath drawn near unto the camp, that he seeth the calf, and the dancing, and the anger of Moses burneth, and he casteth out of his hands the tables, and breaketh them under the mount;
20and he taketh the calf which they have made, and burneth [it] with fire, and grindeth until [it is] small, and scattereth on the face of the waters, and causeth the sons of Israel to drink.
21And Moses saith unto Aaron, `What hath this people done to thee, that thou hast brought in upon it a great sin?'
22and Aaron saith, `Let not the anger of my lord burn; thou -- thou hast known the people that it [is] in evil;
23and they say to me, Make for us gods, who go before us, for this Moses -- the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt -- we have not known what hath happened to him;
24and I say to them, Whoso hath gold, let them break [it] off, and they give to me, and I cast it into the fire, and this calf cometh out.'
25And Moses seeth the people that it [is] unbridled, for Aaron hath made it unbridled for contempt among its withstanders,
26and Moses standeth in the gate of the camp, and saith, `Who [is] for Jehovah? -- unto me!' and all the sons of Levi are gathered unto him;
27and he saith to them, `Thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, Put each his sword by his thigh, pass over and turn back from gate to gate through the camp, and slay each his brother, and each his friend, and each his relation.'
28And the sons of Levi do according to the word of Moses, and there fall of the people on that day about three thousand men,
yeah, God didn't like that party so much.
the WHOLE account.
3. YOU yourself said that the cross worship was added LATER
anyway I am going to stop arguing about this, I have homework to do and I don't have time to waste.
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BTW, you wanted to find the Scripture that tells us how to worship God.
24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).
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1. I'm saying that Paul's statements should not be used to validate Paul's statements. Honestly, I think that, although Paul was a wise man, he was not Jesus, and therefore, not necessarily scripture. Notice how Paul is talking about scripture at a point at which he is not in it. Do not put words in my mouth.
2. "These are you gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt." Hmm, Yahweh? No. Jehovah? No. God? No. The capitalization and phrasing is very important here. Whenever "God the Lord of Israel" is referenced, "God" is capitalized, and everytime He is no referred to as God, He is referred to as the LORD. There is no capital letter present, and further, the word is in the plural. Is there more than one LORD? Not according to Him.
3. Yes, I did. That does not invalidate it as worship of God. The ONLY thing that passage says is "worship Him in spirit and in truth." Where does that say how? It doesn't. Worshipping God through a symbol is not worshipping said symbol, or ANY symbol would be an idol, and early Christians are just as guilty of that as we are, as you brought up earlier with the Icthys.
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I can't believe I didn't think of this one before:
You must make no idols; you must set up neither carved image nor standing-stone, set up no sculptured stine in your land, to prostrate yourselves in front of it; for it is I, Yahweh, who am your God.
notice he did not say "to pray to" or "to worship", he said "to prostrate... in front of", which is what people do to images of Mary, Jesus, the cross, ect.
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1. I'm saying that Paul's statements should not be used to validate Paul's statements. Honestly, I think that, although Paul was a wise man, he was not Jesus, and therefore, not necessarily scripture. Notice how Paul is talking about scripture at a point at which he is not in it. Do not put words in my mouth.
2. "These are you gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt." Hmm, Yahweh? No. Jehovah? No. God? No. The capitalization and phrasing is very important here. Whenever "God the Lord of Israel" is referenced, "God" is capitalized, and everytime He is no referred to as God, He is referred to as the LORD. There is no capital letter present, and further, the word is in the plural. Is there more than one LORD? Not according to Him.
3. Yes, I did. That does not invalidate it as worship of God. The ONLY thing that passage says is "worship Him in spirit and in truth." Where does that say how? It doesn't. Worshipping God through a symbol is not worshipping said symbol, or ANY symbol would be an idol, and early Christians are just as guilty of that as we are, as you brought up earlier with the Icthys.
1. If you believe that Paul's Holy Writings are not valid, then you don't believe in a big chunk of the Greek Scriptures.
2.
'Festival for Jehovah"
3. I am done, you won't budge and I have given more than enough evidence to prove my argument for anyone to see.
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Can't we just go back to talking about whether or not God rolls twenties?
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1. Not valid is a very different thing from wrong. He was not Jesus, obviously, so I, personally, don't necessarily agree with him at all points.
2. "these are your gods" They can't all be worshipping Jehovah if the plural is being used here. Aaron might have been, but the people of Israel were clearly not.
3. Okay, even though your argument is just as much opinion as mine.
@SpardaSon: I thought we established that God auto-rolled 20s as part and parcel of being an overdeity. :D
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No, I don't think overdeities make rolls, nor do they have statistics blocks.
The Christian God on the other hand seemed more like a major deity, at least in the Old Testament.
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I'm not even bothering to drag myself back into most of this, because it frankly isn't worth it. But I do have to ask you, Topgun...just what does this quote have to do with anything, and why did you feel the need to repeat it two or three times afterwards?
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
And yes, the cross may not have been utilized as a symbol of Christianity from the very beginning, but according to that same Wiki article you quoted, it was already closely linked with Christianity by the time of the second or third century A.D. As Scotty noted, your point about God not wanting people to use the symbol of his son's execution is kind of right out, as Christ himself willingly gave up his own life for the purpose of salvation; likewise, the cross is used as a symbol of that ultimate sacrifice.
Also repeating what Scotty said, and myself for that matter, idolatry implies actual worship of the physical object, which is not what is done in the case of crucifixes, statues, or what have you. Those quotes from Leviticus were made with the intention of prohibiting the Israelites from doing what they had done in the case of that golden calf, of treating that thing as God himself, which is a completely separate case from what we're talking about here. These objects are treated as symbols of greater religious truths, aids for visualization, not divinities themselves. It's like you keep failing to make that distinction, which kind of makes this whole conversation pointless.
Besides, you just said that the cross was added later on by the church. who decides how to worship God? The Church, or God Himself?
Funny, I seem to remember a direct quote from Christ himself granting power to Peter and the earthly Church. Something like, "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you hold bound are held bound," wasn't it? Or does the fact that an angry monk nailed a piece of paper to a church door 500 years ago somehow invalidate that?
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The Christian God on the other hand seemed more like a major deity, at least in the Old Testament.
The answer to many of your questions about the Christian God may be found in the theology textbook Jericho Moon by Matthew Stover.
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See now this really pisses me off. Most of us here are having a civil discussion, and then some moderator goes and splits the thread, leaving half my posts in the other one, and then ON TOP OF THAT, gives it a title like this
*shakes head*
until some of the moderators here grow up, i'm also out of this thread. it's too hard to keep track of.
go at it boys.
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The Christian God on the other hand seemed more like a major deity, at least in the Old Testament.
The answer to many of your questions about the Christian God may be found in the theology textbook Jericho Moon by Matthew Stover.
That sounds kickass. Hope it's as good as his Star Wars stuff.
Stover does seem to have a thing for awesome new takes on hokey old religions (no match for a good blaster at your side!)
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To add another quip to the whole religious cwap... wouldnt it really be nice if God himself dragged his ass down to our level and set everything straight finally?
Unfortunately, if the scriptures are truth, those of us who "turned our back to him and his love" are **** outta luck.
I kinda liked Preacher's take on Heaven, Hell, and God. And goddammit, i wanted for the Devil to live, not to have his brains splattered by the Saint of Killers -.-
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So, where will lthe final rules for playing Jesus Christ appear. Will this be a d20 ruleset addition or pure D&D (4th ed?)?
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You know, I tend to wonder if Jesus would be that great a character. I suppose he would be good at sitting back and casting healing spells for the rest of the party or turning water to wine for the post battle party, but really I never saw anything that indicates he could be used offensively. Whats he going to do? Turn the other cheek most of the time and possibly throw a sandal at somebody if you some how get a really good roll? It certainly not like he has a good kit no bolter, no chainsword, no powerfist, no elven forged sword, no magic bow, just sandals and a robe. Sure he can resurrect but thats going to be quite a few days after the battle has been decided, and considering he was killed with an average legionnaire's pillum it isn't like he has massive HP.
If your actually looking for good deity characters who are going to be worth a hoot in battle i tend to think you need to look towards polytheism.
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:lol:
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Jesus saves.
Everyone else takes normal damage.
Flipside, you're a machine. This is the second brilliant quote of yours I've had to sig! :lol:
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You know, I tend to wonder if Jesus would be that great a character. I suppose he would be good at sitting back and casting healing spells for the rest of the party or turning water to wine for the post battle party, but really I never saw anything that indicates he could be used offensively. Whats he going to do? Turn the other cheek most of the time and possibly throw a sandal at somebody if you some how get a really good roll? It certainly not like he has a good kit no bolter, no chainsword, no powerfist, no elven forged sword, no magic bow, just sandals and a robe. Sure he can resurrect but thats going to be quite a few days after the battle has been decided, and considering he was killed with an average legionnaire's pillum it isn't like he has massive HP.
If your actually looking for good deity characters who are going to be worth a hoot in battle i tend to think you need to look towards polytheism.
Well, depends. If you're running an instance about moneylenders in the temple...
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I actually meant more from a DM's perspective as an NPC, but playable, that brings a new level to the blasphemy :)
2 notes:
1) Flipside cannot take credit for Penny Arcade quotes ;)
2) The rest of Starslayers discussion on JHC as a playable is entertaining me to the point where I feel the need to quote it somewhere...
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Flipside, you're a machine. This is the second brilliant quote of yours I've had to sig! :lol:
That's a pretty old one in D&D circles. It's even turned up Knights of the Dinner Table and Erfworld.
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You know, I tend to wonder if Jesus would be that great a character. I suppose he would be good at sitting back and casting healing spells for the rest of the party or turning water to wine for the post battle party, but really I never saw anything that indicates he could be used offensively. Whats he going to do? Turn the other cheek most of the time and possibly throw a sandal at somebody if you some how get a really good roll? It certainly not like he has a good kit no bolter, no chainsword, no powerfist, no elven forged sword, no magic bow, just sandals and a robe. Sure he can resurrect but thats going to be quite a few days after the battle has been decided, and considering he was killed with an average legionnaire's pillum it isn't like he has massive HP.
If your actually looking for good deity characters who are going to be worth a hoot in battle i tend to think you need to look towards polytheism.
if you applied some D&D2/AD&D type bardic ability then Christ would probably make one hell of a bard/priest dual class, i can almost imagine him stood their arms raised mumbling some kind of chant boosting the parties ability scores
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-20 AC vs nails.
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:lol: