[Topgun]

1.  Really?  You just quoted a guy who was talking about the Bible back when he wasn't in it to justify something he said (talking Paul here).

2. The golden calf is explicitly stated to be used to worship various unnamed "gods" in that very passage, not God as in Yahweh!  

When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [a] who will go before us...They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'

If you are going to bring up examples, bring up the whole example.

3.  If I may ask, what on Earth (heh) is the cross a likeness of?  As for the other point, I'll tell you when I find where God tells people how to worship in the Bible.

1. so you are saying Paul was wrong then? I guess you don't believe in most of Greek Scriptures then.

2.

He [Aaron] took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.
5.Now when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made a proclamation and said, "Tomorrow shall be a feast to Jehovah."

Aaron himself made the idol (as a calf) and said it was for Jehovah.
AND yes I did bring up the whole account,

also, the Bible clearly shows that it is NOT okay to make an image to worship God.



Exodus 32

  

1And the people see that Moses is delaying to come down from the mount, and the people assemble against Aaron, and say unto him, `Rise, make for us gods who go before us, for this Moses -- the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt -- we have not known what hath happened to him.'

   2And Aaron saith unto them, `Break off the rings of gold which [are] in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring in unto me;'

   3and all the people themselves break off the rings of gold which [are] in their ears, and bring in unto Aaron,

   4and he receiveth from their hand, and doth fashion it with a graving tool, and doth make it a molten calf, and they say, `These thy gods, O Israel, who brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'

   5And Aaron seeth, and buildeth an altar before it, and Aaron calleth, and saith, `A festival to Jehovah -- to-morrow;'

now lets stop right here for a sec.
the Israelites wanted to have a festival, supposedly in honor to Jehovah, so they made a golden calf to use in their "worship of Jehovah"
what happened next?

And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Go, descend, for thy people whom thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt hath done corruptly,

   8they have turned aside hastily from the way that I have commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten calf, and bow themselves to it, and sacrifice to it, and say, These thy gods, O Israel, who brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.'

   9And Jehovah saith unto Moses, `I have seen this people, and lo, it [is] a stiff-necked people;

   10and now, let Me alone, and My anger doth burn against them, and I consume them, and I make thee become a great nation.'

   11And Moses appeaseth the face of Jehovah his God, and saith, `Why, O Jehovah, doth Thine anger burn against Thy people, whom Thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a strong hand?

   12why do the Egyptians speak, saying, For evil He brought them out to slay them among mountains, and to consume them from off the face of the ground? turn back from the heat of Thine anger, and repent of the evil against Thy people.

   13`Be mindful of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, Thy servants, to whom Thou hast sworn by Thyself, and unto whom Thou speakest: I multiply your seed as stars of the heavens, and all this land, as I have said, I give to your seed, and they have inherited to the age;'

   14and Jehovah repenteth of the evil which He hath spoken of doing to His people.

   15And Moses turneth, and goeth down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony [are] in his hand, tables written on both their sides, on this and on that [are] they written;

   16and the tables are the work of God, and the writing is the writing of God, graven on the tables.

   17And Joshua heareth the voice of the people in their shouting, and saith unto Moses, `A noise of battle in the camp!'

   18and he saith, `It is not the voice of the crying of might, nor is it the voice of the crying of weakness -- a voice of singing I am hearing.'

   19And it cometh to pass, when he hath drawn near unto the camp, that he seeth the calf, and the dancing, and the anger of Moses burneth, and he casteth out of his hands the tables, and breaketh them under the mount;

   20and he taketh the calf which they have made, and burneth [it] with fire, and grindeth until [it is] small, and scattereth on the face of the waters, and causeth the sons of Israel to drink.

   21And Moses saith unto Aaron, `What hath this people done to thee, that thou hast brought in upon it a great sin?'

   22and Aaron saith, `Let not the anger of my lord burn; thou -- thou hast known the people that it [is] in evil;

   23and they say to me, Make for us gods, who go before us, for this Moses -- the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt -- we have not known what hath happened to him;

   24and I say to them, Whoso hath gold, let them break [it] off, and they give to me, and I cast it into the fire, and this calf cometh out.'

   25And Moses seeth the people that it [is] unbridled, for Aaron hath made it unbridled for contempt among its withstanders,

   26and Moses standeth in the gate of the camp, and saith, `Who [is] for Jehovah? -- unto me!' and all the sons of Levi are gathered unto him;

   27and he saith to them, `Thus said Jehovah, God of Israel, Put each his sword by his thigh, pass over and turn back from gate to gate through the camp, and slay each his brother, and each his friend, and each his relation.'

   28And the sons of Levi do according to the word of Moses, and there fall of the people on that day about three thousand men,

yeah, God didn't like that party so much.

the WHOLE account.

3. YOU yourself said that the cross worship was added LATER

anyway I am going to stop arguing about this, I have homework to do and I don't have time to waste.

[Topgun]

BTW, you wanted to find the Scripture that tells us how to worship God.

 24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).

[Scotty]

1.  I'm saying that Paul's statements should not be used to validate Paul's statements.  Honestly, I think that, although Paul was a wise man, he was not Jesus, and therefore, not necessarily scripture.  Notice how Paul is talking about scripture at a point at which he is not in it.  Do not put words in my mouth.

2.  "These are you gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."  Hmm, Yahweh?  No.  Jehovah?  No. God?  No.  The capitalization and phrasing is very important here.  Whenever "God the Lord of Israel" is referenced, "God" is capitalized, and everytime He is no referred to as God, He is referred to as the LORD.  There is no capital letter present, and further, the word is in the plural.  Is there more than one LORD?  Not according to Him.

3.  Yes, I did.  That does not invalidate it as worship of God.  The ONLY thing that passage says is "worship Him in spirit and in truth."  Where does that say how?  It doesn't.  Worshipping God through a symbol is not worshipping said symbol, or ANY symbol would be an idol, and early Christians are just as guilty of that as we are, as you brought up earlier with the Icthys.

[Topgun]

I can't believe I didn't think of this one before:

You must make no idols; you must set up neither carved image nor standing-stone, set up no sculptured stine in your land, to prostrate yourselves in front of it; for it is I, Yahweh, who am your God.

notice he did not say "to pray to" or "to worship", he said "to prostrate... in front of", which is what people do to images of Mary, Jesus, the cross, ect.

[Topgun]

1.  I'm saying that Paul's statements should not be used to validate Paul's statements.  Honestly, I think that, although Paul was a wise man, he was not Jesus, and therefore, not necessarily scripture.  Notice how Paul is talking about scripture at a point at which he is not in it.  Do not put words in my mouth.

2.  "These are you gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."  Hmm, Yahweh?  No.  Jehovah?  No. God?  No.  The capitalization and phrasing is very important here.  Whenever "God the Lord of Israel" is referenced, "God" is capitalized, and everytime He is no referred to as God, He is referred to as the LORD.  There is no capital letter present, and further, the word is in the plural.  Is there more than one LORD?  Not according to Him.

3.  Yes, I did.  That does not invalidate it as worship of God.  The ONLY thing that passage says is "worship Him in spirit and in truth."  Where does that say how?  It doesn't.  Worshipping God through a symbol is not worshipping said symbol, or ANY symbol would be an idol, and early Christians are just as guilty of that as we are, as you brought up earlier with the Icthys.

1. If you believe that Paul's Holy Writings are not valid, then you don't believe in a big chunk of the Greek Scriptures.
2.
'Festival for Jehovah"

3. I am done, you won't budge and I have given more than enough evidence to prove my argument for anyone to see.

[SpardaSon21]

Can't we just go back to talking about whether or not God rolls twenties?

[Scotty]

1.  Not valid is a very different thing from wrong.  He was not Jesus, obviously, so I, personally, don't necessarily agree with him at all points.

2. "these are your gods"  They can't all be worshipping Jehovah if the plural is being used here.  Aaron might have been, but the people of Israel were clearly not.

3.  Okay, even though your argument is just as much opinion as mine.

@SpardaSon:  I thought we established that God auto-rolled 20s as part and parcel of being an overdeity.

[General Battuta]

No, I don't think overdeities make rolls, nor do they have statistics blocks.

The Christian God on the other hand seemed more like a major deity, at least in the Old Testament.

[Mongoose]

I'm not even bothering to drag myself back into most of this, because it frankly isn't worth it.  But I do have to ask you, Topgun...just what does this quote have to do with anything, and why did you feel the need to repeat it two or three times afterwards?

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

And yes, the cross may not have been utilized as a symbol of Christianity from the very beginning, but according to that same Wiki article you quoted, it was already closely linked with Christianity by the time of the second or third century A.D.  As Scotty noted, your point about God not wanting people to use the symbol of his son's execution is kind of right out, as Christ himself willingly gave up his own life for the purpose of salvation; likewise, the cross is used as a symbol of that ultimate sacrifice.

Also repeating what Scotty said, and myself for that matter, idolatry implies actual worship of the physical object, which is not what is done in the case of crucifixes, statues, or what have you.  Those quotes from Leviticus were made with the intention of prohibiting the Israelites from doing what they had done in the case of that golden calf, of treating that thing as God himself, which is a completely separate case from what we're talking about here.  These objects are treated as symbols of greater religious truths, aids for visualization, not divinities themselves.  It's like you keep failing to make that distinction, which kind of makes this whole conversation pointless.

Besides, you just said that the cross was added later on by the church. who decides how to worship God? The Church, or God Himself?

Funny, I seem to remember a direct quote from Christ himself granting power to Peter and the earthly Church.  Something like, "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you hold bound are held bound," wasn't it?  Or does the fact that an angry monk nailed a piece of paper to a church door 500 years ago somehow invalidate that?

[mxlm]

The Christian God on the other hand seemed more like a major deity, at least in the Old Testament.

The answer to many of your questions about the Christian God may be found in the theology textbook Jericho Moon by Matthew Stover.

[Stealth]

See now this really pisses me off.  Most of us here are having a civil discussion, and then some moderator goes and splits the thread, leaving half my posts in the other one, and then ON TOP OF THAT, gives it a title like this

*shakes head*

until some of the moderators here grow up, i'm also out of this thread.  it's too hard to keep track of.

go at it boys.

[General Battuta]

The Christian God on the other hand seemed more like a major deity, at least in the Old Testament.

The answer to many of your questions about the Christian God may be found in the theology textbook Jericho Moon by Matthew Stover.

That sounds kickass. Hope it's as good as his Star Wars stuff.

Stover does seem to have a thing for awesome new takes on hokey old religions (no match for a good blaster at your side!)

[pecenipicek]

To add another quip to the whole religious cwap...  wouldnt it really be nice if God himself dragged his ass down to our level and set everything straight finally?



Unfortunately, if the scriptures are truth, those of us who "turned our back to him and his love" are **** outta luck.



I kinda liked Preacher's take on Heaven, Hell, and God. And goddammit, i wanted for the Devil to live, not to have his brains splattered by the Saint of Killers -.-

[Inquisitor]

So, where will lthe final rules for playing Jesus Christ appear. Will this be a d20 ruleset addition or pure D&D (4th ed?)?

[StarSlayer]

You know, I tend to wonder if Jesus would be that great a character.  I suppose he would be good at sitting back and casting healing spells  for the rest of the party or turning water to wine for the post battle party, but really I never saw anything that indicates he could be used offensively.  Whats he going to do?  Turn the other cheek most of the time and possibly throw a sandal at somebody if you some how get a really good roll?  It certainly not like he has a good kit no bolter, no chainsword, no powerfist, no elven forged sword, no magic bow, just sandals and a robe.  Sure he can resurrect but thats going to be quite a few days after the battle has been decided, and considering he was killed with an average legionnaire's pillum it isn't like he has massive HP.

If your actually looking for good deity characters who are going to be worth a hoot in battle i tend to think you need to look towards polytheism.

[Commander Zane]

[Thaeris]

Jesus saves.

Everyone else takes normal damage.

Flipside, you're a machine. This is the second brilliant quote of yours I've had to sig! 

[General Battuta]

You know, I tend to wonder if Jesus would be that great a character.  I suppose he would be good at sitting back and casting healing spells  for the rest of the party or turning water to wine for the post battle party, but really I never saw anything that indicates he could be used offensively.  Whats he going to do?  Turn the other cheek most of the time and possibly throw a sandal at somebody if you some how get a really good roll?  It certainly not like he has a good kit no bolter, no chainsword, no powerfist, no elven forged sword, no magic bow, just sandals and a robe.  Sure he can resurrect but thats going to be quite a few days after the battle has been decided, and considering he was killed with an average legionnaire's pillum it isn't like he has massive HP.

If your actually looking for good deity characters who are going to be worth a hoot in battle i tend to think you need to look towards polytheism.

Well, depends. If you're running an instance about moneylenders in the temple...

[Inquisitor]

I actually meant more from a DM's perspective as an NPC, but playable, that brings a new level to the blasphemy

2 notes:

1) Flipside cannot take credit for Penny Arcade quotes

2) The rest of Starslayers discussion on JHC as a playable is entertaining me to the point where I feel the need to quote it somewhere...

[NGTM-1R]

Flipside, you're a machine. This is the second brilliant quote of yours I've had to sig! 

That's a pretty old one in D&D circles. It's even turned up Knights of the Dinner Table and Erfworld.