Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: swampzero on January 21, 2010, 11:17:32 am
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So I was playing FS2 again and it suddenly hit me. Where the hell did all those 80 juggernauts during the Capella supernova jump to? They weren't on a node, and even Shivans can't do inter-system jumps without a node. So basically they did an in-system jump and still died.
They lost 80 juggernauts to supernova what was basically an empty system what the hell is up with that.
Also since you're reading this thread, mind telling me the best user campaigns for FSOpen?
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So I was playing FS2 again and it suddenly hit me. Where the hell did all those 80 juggernauts during the Capella supernova jump to? They weren't on a node, and even Shivans can't do inter-system jumps without a node. So basically they did an in-system jump and still died.
They lost 80 juggernauts to supernova what was basically an empty system what the hell is up with that.
That is open for speculation. Some believe they jumped to a galaxy far, far away and made Han Solo go like this (http://omglol.kerrolisaa.com/1/816.jpg). It is also possible that they needed a supernova for something. Maybe they just wanted to show off?
mind telling me the best user campaigns for FSOpen?
JAD.
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I have no idea what they were up to and why they blew up a star in first place, check Tides Of Darkness for one possible explaination.
Also since you're reading this thread, mind telling me the best user campaigns for FSOpen?
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67058.0
You may like to look into this thread.
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It's basically canon that they can't do an inter-system jump without a node. It's been shown multiple times in the game, and even outright mentioned by Command on some cutscene or briefing.
Question is, did they have time to jump near a node, slowboat inside, and jump out of the system? Not very likely, but then, might have well stayed near the sun and died instead of aimlessly jumping around.
All in all, weird stuff
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Some thik that the collapsing star created a "supernode" of sorts, where they went is still a mystery. Also, remember that the Gamma Draconis node is still open, they could have just jupmed out there before the blast got to them. (the speed of light limt would have bough them a bit more time).
Now, best campaigns: There's FSPort and Silent Threat Reborn (although I have yet to play the latter), Derilict, Sync, Trancend, Blue Planet, and many others.
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If there is one thing that should be clear, it's that the Shivans know much, much more about Subspace than the GTVA does. In other words, just because the GTVA can't do something doesn't mean the Shivans can't do it either.
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If you think about it, the Shivans multiple times used unstable nodes to circumvent Terran blockades in FS1. This shows that they at least can use more unstable nodes than the GTA and PVN can.
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If there is one thing that should be clear, it's that the Shivans know much, much more about Subspace than the GTVA does. In other words, just because the GTVA can't do something doesn't mean the Shivans can't do it either.
It's not so much that Command said so, as much as all the times they were limited strategically and tactically by the mechanics of node jumping, just like everybody else. In all the campaign, they never once not used a node, even if that would have given them extreme advantages and made them untrackable.
Some thik that the collapsing star created a "supernode" of sorts, where they went is still a mystery. Also, remember that the Gamma Draconis node is still open, they could have just jupmed out there before the blast got to them. (the speed of light limt would have bough them a bit more time).
Now, best campaigns: There's FSPort and Silent Threat Reborn (although I have yet to play the latter), Derilict, Sync, Trancend, Blue Planet, and many others.
Supernode theory is something I hadn't thought of. It makes sense, as much as these things can make sense I guess. But the Gamma Draconis theory I doubt is viable. Throughout the campaign, never was a ship able to land anywhere near a node when jumping out. It is assumed that it is impossible to get closer than 2-3 kilometers from its edge, or else you 'd never have had to escort fleeing ships.
If you think about it, the Shivans multiple times used unstable nodes to circumvent Terran blockades in FS1. This shows that they at least can use more unstable nodes than the GTA and PVN can.
It would have had to be a pretty huge node, if it could encircle 80 juggernauts placed in a circle around a star.
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It would have had to be a pretty huge node, if it could encircle 80 juggernauts placed in a circle around a star.
It could be possible that the Supernova actually created a node, which is a very popular theory in the community. Remember Petrarch's closing speech?
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Who said they used one node? :P
Shivans are known to cause surprises.
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It's not so much that Command said so, as much as all the times they were limited strategically and tactically by the mechanics of node jumping, just like everybody else. In all the campaign, they never once not used a node, even if that would have given them extreme advantages and made them untrackable.
I stand by my point. The Shivans exhibit a marked inconsistency in their tactics and equipment, almost as if they are fighting with one hand tied behind their collective backs. And the point is not that they would need nodes to make jumps, but rather what the Shivans see as a usable node in the first place.
(Besides, even intrasystem jumps can cover enormous volumes of space, several light hours at least. They have all the time they need to prepare a proper exit with that much time.
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there is also the theory that the Shivans were born from subspace so perhaps the destruction of the Capella star opened a different type of node which took them to a variation of subspace that was home to them
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Note that the precise mechanics of a FS subspace jump are NOT well defined - this is advantageous for storytelling purposes until one starts asking questions. :p
However, we are given the prompt that jumps have much to do with gravity wells/mysterious energies and the like. By collapsing a star, there is the possibility that the Shivans would have indeed made use of a "supernode" of sorts. It's all up for speculation, though I think that's the best one out there.
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Well, we don't know what was the subspacy green thingy anyway :D
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Well, we don't know what was the subspacy green thingy anyway :D
Extradimensional travel is not something easily explained by video games. :p That said, in the context of a video game, the question would still remain; if a supernova was needed for travel, why Capella? Was its location or interactions significant? Was it part of a sort of shock-and-awe campaign? Was it a prior established route? Was Capella meeting a specific requirement for a jump? Lots of ideas but, ultimately, Freespace Canon says that Capella went supernova and the Shivans apparently disappeared.
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The answer you are looking for is in another castle, unfortunately.
Can't tell you where, though. There should be a modeller inbound to explain it, though.
EDIT: Wrong thread, sorry
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Well, we don't know what was the subspacy green thingy anyway :D
Extradimensional travel is not something easily explained by video games. :p That said, in the context of a video game, the question would still remain; if a supernova was needed for travel, why Capella? Was its location or interactions significant? Was it part of a sort of shock-and-awe campaign? Was it a prior established route? Was Capella meeting a specific requirement for a jump? Lots of ideas but, ultimately, Freespace Canon says that Capella went supernova and the Shivans apparently disappeared.
If we make the assumption that inter-dimensional travel is achievable in a similar fashion to inter-system subspace travel, then sure maybe the Capella star was some kind of Supernode; its location just as significant as the physical space around inter-system Jump Nodes.
I sound smart.
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It was always my take that the Shivans were doing their own thing and only even bothered with the Terrans and Vasudans because they stumbled across them, like swatting away a fly or something. This being the case, they blew up Cappella for their own reasons, not to kill civilizations. One theory I came up with is the Shivans were deliberately creating a nebula to mine gas/energy/whatever else they do in one, and were also probably responsible for the nebula beyond the portal.
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It was always my take that the Shivans were doing their own thing and only even bothered with the Terrans and Vasudans because they stumbled across them, like swatting away a fly or something. This being the case, they blew up Cappella for their own reasons, not to kill civilizations. One theory I came up with is the Shivans were deliberately creating a nebula to mine gas/energy/whatever else they do in one, and were also probably responsible for the nebula beyond the portal.
That's another thing that's never really addressed. It seems (by their actions) that Shivans are either a collective intelligence or the game's very definition of the Shivans is (by their strangeness) incorrect. We might have found varieties of the worker bees (various fighters perhaps) but we still really don't know much about anything bigger than a bomber. On the other hand, perhaps the Ancients really did have a hand in the Shivan's reaction; it's stated that Ancient technology was not much better than the GTVA's, except for that they were decades ahead in subspace travel (and perhaps propulsion?). The REAL question is why the Ancients were to ineffective against the Shivans; there's a lot of Shivans but there's also a lot of Ancients. Were their weapons really the quality of the FS1-intro missions? That's pretty darn weak to squash a small bug. Would they only advance 40 years in weapons manufacturing during the Shivan conquest? Have they never learned about systems redundancy?
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After years I feel pretty comfortable on a couple of things:
1) The Terrans and Vasudans didn't matter so much to them in FS2. The supernova was something that the GTVA was witness to... rather than it being directed at them.
2) The Shivans are supposed to be the cosmic destroyers and the cosmic preservers according to FS1. Their contact in FS2 may have been premature...
3) The command briefs suggest that there was an immense subspace field being generated around the Capella star. The star was artificially forced into a supernova state. Since we know that subspace travel is highly dependent on gravity wells of stars ... manipulating a star on such a level may allow for some sort of special circumstances.
The rest I'm not too comfortable about. Where they went and why are total mysteries. Sort of a fun mystery to have. Honestly... if there were to be a continuation of the story I think it'd be a 100 years or more later with no sign of the Shivans.
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Honestly... if there were to be a continuation of the story I think it'd be a 100 years or more later with no sign of the Shivans.
I feel that Inferno might actually be near what FS3 would be. Just add a bit less POWERHOUSE EXCITMENT and a bit of Technological Superiority.
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After years I feel pretty comfortable on a couple of things:
1) The Terrans and Vasudans didn't matter so much to them in FS2. The supernova was something that the GTVA was witness to... rather than it being directed at them.
2) The Shivans are supposed to be the cosmic destroyers and the cosmic preservers according to FS1. Their contact in FS2 may have been premature...
3) The command briefs suggest that there was an immense subspace field being generated around the Capella star. The star was artificially forced into a supernova state. Since we know that subspace travel is highly dependent on gravity wells of stars ... manipulating a star on such a level may allow for some sort of special circumstances.
The rest I'm not too comfortable about. Where they went and why are total mysteries. Sort of a fun mystery to have. Honestly... if there were to be a continuation of the story I think it'd be a 100 years or more later with no sign of the Shivans.
What if they were actually stealing Capella? I always thought there were too many stars in the Nebula; hotspots I can agree with, but dozens of stars? Meh. Either that was one huge supernova or something was forcing more matter there. Actually could have been cool to hear about some quack theory about the Shivans trying to dissipate the nebula so that there'd be one absolutely massive gravity well, perhaps as the result of a black hole.
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Maybe "superjumps" (or whatever you want to call what the Shivans did) require a certain number and/or configuration of multi-star system to perform. The Nebula system was(or at least one of) the last time they did this, at least in the vicinity of our space.
It could then follow: Their scouting force(the 'original' Rakshasa and Maras), having suddenly discovered(or were notified of) a revived jump node, came to find/confirm Capella as a viable system to perform a superjump, but was stopped by the Carthage and Dahshor. Everything after that was either a continuation of this or an attempt to send forces to secure Capella, so the GTVA wouldn't interfere with what they were doing(eventually, even so far as to send ships to try to set up a blockade at the Vega-Capella and Epsilon Pegasi-Capella jump nodes, leading the GTVA to believe the Shivans were trying to expand beyond Capella). ETAK was a curious diversion, but their goal this time was always to get to Capella, not to attack the GTVA.
Of course, it's possible the Lucifer fleet had already 'told' the Sathani about Capella(somehow), but they had no practical way of getting there until the Gamma Draconis Knossos had been activated(though why the Lucifer fleet or Great War Shivan remnants couldn't have done it themselves is a question).
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Of course, it's possible the Lucifer fleet had already 'told' the Sathani about Capella(somehow), but they had no practical way of getting there until the Gamma Draconis Knossos had been activated(though why the Lucifer fleet or Great War Shivan remnants couldn't have done it themselves is a question).
Or even why the Sathani didn't followed the same way Lucy did to reach GTVA systems. Given that GTVA never found which node the Lucy took to enter their space (or even if it come from a node at all), the question why more Shivans didn't pour in our systems the same way is still open.
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Lucifer fleet probably scouted the route taking them hundreds if not thousands of years hence the tech difference between FS1 and FS2 when compared to the age of the shivan species. basically Lucifer fleet left "shivan space" to start scouting node routes around the galaxy and basically blundered its way into our patch of the former Ancient territory for possibly the Shivans came upon the ancients through an unstable node that since collapsed. In the time between Lucifer leaving and FS2 the shivans develop beam tech and build the Sath fleet so when the GD Knossos activates they pummel us. Might explain the uniqueness of the Lucifer if it is a specialized class of destroyer for prolonged exploration and opens the possibility for other Lucifer fleets
another angle is that the Shivans probably knew of Capella from their tangle with the ancients
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It's possible the GW Lucifer fleet is a remnant of the Shivan fleet that destroyed the Ancients, and ended up stuck on this side when the Gamma Draconis Knossos was shut down(perhaps with the Ancients' better knowledge of subspace, the Knossos could also be used somehow to close an unstable node faster than merely allowing it to decay naturally?).
Either the Gamma Draconis Knossos was shut down by someone, or it somehow shut itself down, as I doubt Bosch could have done much in terms of repairs had the portal simply run itself to death over hundreds or thousands of years, especially not without drawing attention to such operations. The fact that the second and third Knossos were still in operation seems to suggest to me that the Gamma Draconis Knossos was shut down on purpose, by someone.
To the best of my knowledge, we don't know exactly where the Ancients' homeworld was, but if it was in the Altair system, that is clear on the other side of the official nodemap (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Official_Volition_Node_Map) from Capella(and Gamma Draconis). Perhaps the Ancients tried to cut off the Shivans a bit too late, just as the GTVA did, though they may have succeeded in cutting off Shivan reinforcements, including the Sathani, or whatever else the Shivans may have been using at the time(while reasonably logical, perhaps, nothing explicitly says the Sathanas having uber-beam cannons is actually any part of the superjump technology, merely that the arms which have the cannons on them bend to generate what certainly appears to be a subspace warp opening).
If the Lucifer fleet is a remnant, it would also need to either find a way to 'sleep' or shut down for thousands of years, or(more realistically) start manufacturing parts or cannibalizing some of their ships to keep the others running. Societally, that has some interesting potential. The Lucifer fleet that the GTA and PVN run into, having lived apart from the rest of their kind for thousands of years, could/should be of a very different culture than the rest of the Shivans(the FS2-era Shivans). Throw in the fact that the canon Silent Threat campaign claims the GTI may have known of the Shivans before the Ross 128 massacre, and were studying Shivans at Jotenheim, at least since the Ross 128 massacre, and I imagine it's possible the GTI 'accidentally' poked the proverbial sleeping Lucifer fleet bear, and got way more than they bargained for.
FS2 could have been all one giant misunderstanding by everyone:
Bosch: Thinks we need an alliance with the Shivans, or else they'll destroy us when they come back.
GTVA(perhaps apart from the highest/higher levels of Command): Thinks the Shivans are a race of vicious, omnicidal xenophobes who can't be reasoned with, because of experience with an isolated group of their kind.
Shivans: Just want to go home, and as something like a race of ancient pseudo-eldrich abominations, really don't care about the puny Terrans/Vasudans, as long as they don't get in their way. Who says the GTC Vigilant or an escorting fighter didn't panic and fire the first shot, or otherwise do something that might have provoked them(intentionally or unintentionally)?
...okay, so they have awfully big guns for a civilization of not-really-warlike beings; maybe they prefer to put up a front to cow 'lesser' races by fear and intimidation(explaining their love of obviously evil-looking, pointy red-and-black-motif ships)? :P
Much later EDIT: So, yeah, I forgot about the CBAni depicting the Rakshasha beaming the Vigilant seconds after jumping in(using totally incorrect beam arcs for the front beams), but technically, their first contact was with the Trinity, not the Vigilant, so it's still open for debate.
Just had to correct myself in case someone came across this post in the future.
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I agree with Timerlane about the idea of the Lucifer fleet as being fundamentally distinct from the Shivans encountered from FS2, and that the Ancients shutting down the Knossos in Gamma Draconis in a too-late attempt to stop the Shivan onslaught provides the explanation for that discrepancy. The idea of the GTI happening to stumble across a hibernating Lucifer fleet is definitely a compelling one, and I think it fits with the Shivans' behavior in the original game; they essentially pick off right where they left off with the Ancients 8000 years ago, just against two new targets. The FS2 Shivan forces never made any full-fledged attempts to invade the entirety of GTVA space (with the possible exception of the original Sathanas, which could have been scouting more than anything else), suggesting that Capella was their true objective.
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Reading all this is mind-boggling :eek:
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Watch that animation closely again. The shivians were jumping INTO the star. As if the subspace node was INSIDE the star. It didn't go boom yet, they jumped out THEN it went boom.
So my theory is the node is inside the star and their using it caused the star to supernova. Thats why capella and not some other system. Where it leads to, its hinted that 'maybe they are lost too, searching for a way back home'. So the node is INSIDE the star and stars are pretty damn big innit. So they had to enlarge the node (like a goatse :lol: :drevil:) so as to be able to go through without having to travel through the sun and get crispy fried.
Its of course up to speculation what the boom did to the node.
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No, they were jumping into subspace vortices generated in front of them. It doesn't seem to matter which direction you are facing before entering subspace.
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I would suggest you to use "I think they" or "They probably did" instead of "They did, period" when making assumptions. It's becoming quite hard to tell which argument is canon and which is assumption in the discussion.
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No, they were jumping into subspace vortices generated in front of them. It doesn't seem to matter which direction you are facing before entering subspace.
When a ship is jumping into a node in FS, it jumps... into a subspace vortex in front of it. As long as it is within the confines of the node entrance, it will enter it.
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Yeah but we can't positively say they were jumping 'into the star'. They could be jumping anywhere; the fact that they're facing the star isn't evidence on its own.
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Me and a friend were discussing this once, and the possibilities that it could lead into FS2. I personally think that the sun, was used by the shivans as some sort of node, unless they ran to use another node, which I do not believe is likely. Possibly from there, they went home, to another part of the solar system or wherever. That's what I don't know, but this is all speculation, so I can't accurately say that that is in fact the reason they jumped out
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He you're all referring to the visible effects of the Shivans on the Star. I'd like to put forward that nodes are not visible entities. So the fact the star was resonating with the Sathanii has little to do with the nodes radius. It could have extended beyond the Shivan Armada with no visible indicators meaning that when the Jugs jumped. They were actually using the theoretical node in question.
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Judging by the fact a dozen SJ's were lost during the Supernova, I'd say that something went wrong with whatever they were up to.
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Or that it isn't a perfect process. I believe that they either have some new type of technology,something learned from the ancients, or even a process that they've been using for centuries.. Also, do we know the purpose of the shivan comm nodes? I haven't played the regular campaign in awhile, but if I remember right, we don't know their purpose
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Judging by the fact a dozen SJ's were lost during the Supernova, I'd say that something went wrong with whatever they were up to.
Or they just don't care.
And didn't we only see 4 get left behind?
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Well as you can see from all campaigns, the ship in question must be inside the node's radius or facing it within its effective range.
The green thing doesn't actually exist, its just a hud indicator, obvious but lets get that out of the way.
So my theory is that there is an unstable, very small node (remember some campaigns the node is so week you have to be literally in the sphere) in the sun. Suns are large buring pools of gas, there could very well be a node inside. However good luck getting to it. So, ripping the node open is what I think the shivians did. Like a goatse. Opening it big enough for the entire armada to go through. Those few getting pwnt, ask yourself did they really get pwnt? When it went supernova, sure maybe due to bad timing, they only lost a few ships when they had so many, these are just acceptable losses. The brief said they weren't capable of advanced strategising, so my assumption is they are pre programmed beings made by some ancient race, or just some species of animals. Is it just me or do shivian ships seem to be grown, not built?
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Let's remember that Petrarch does offer some of his theorems on what may or may not have happened - what was it?
"The explosion of a star might be the bridge between our world - and their own."
(sorry if it's not an exact quote, I'm not exactly in the mood to search for punctuality >_>)
As mentioned, there's a distinct difference between what the Lucifer did compared to the Sathanas fleet. The Lucifer was actively seeking out targets to destroy, while the Sathanas fleet didn't really care too much about hunting down and destroying Alliance craft.
If they really wanted the Alliance craft to be destroyed, I find it odd that they'd focus their efforts by using squadrons of bombers and some cruisers rather than deploying the big guns like a few Ravana or just sending a Juggernaut near the jump nodes(like what happened with the Colossus). Is it that they needed every Juggernaut for the Capella star? If so, I bring up the Colossus - why did that one go out of its way to destroy it?
Here's another interesting note: Replay High Noon(off of like Tech Room or whatever).
Notice how the Colossus is set to attack the Sathanas, but the Sathanas clearly doesn't care and continues going in a straight line and doesn't turn or whatever to attack the Colossus.
If we note the Shivan's actions in FS2, one could theorize that the Alliance is merely in the way of Shivan activity, and that they weren't trying to hunt down the Alliance, at least, not to the extent they were in FS1.
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This is about the eighteenth time we've been through this.
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Judging by the fact a dozen SJ's were lost during the Supernova, I'd say that something went wrong with whatever they were up to.
I must say, thoughts on that tangent allow for extraordanary, out-of-the-box storytelling! :yes:
As it's an unanticipated twist, it also has a good shock value if implemented properly... I wonder if Teeth of the Tiger uses this element as a plot device...
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I wouldn't call that 'out-of-the-box', nor unanticipated. It was one of the possibilities that came up a lot ten years ago when we first started having these debates about the ending.
The big problem with it is that it diminishes the menace of the Shivans, which cheapens the drama of the story.
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I think it's just a question of execution.
For example, the Shivan threat is perhaps made more immediate once more as they did in fact fail in some fashion: they did not disappear to some far corner of the galaxy/other galaxy... There is perhaps a remnant of the Shivan force left behind in close proximity to Terran/Vasudan space. You must add into account that Shivan motives remain unknown to GTVA forces - the fact that they might have failed is simply a subtle plot element allowing the Shivan threat to remain.
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IIRC, it has also been suggested in the past that the Sathanas lured out to attack the Colossus might have been why(or at least partly so) some of the Sathani(er, Sathanes? Just played through the JAD series :P ) were left behind. 1 out of 80+ admittedly seems small, but it was a seemingly subtle 'field' to begin with, as far as GTVA sensors were concerned.
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I wonder if Teeth of the Tiger uses this element as a plot device...
It would be a spoiler (http://yes) if I said it ...
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I wouldn't call that 'out-of-the-box', nor unanticipated. It was one of the possibilities that came up a lot ten years ago when we first started having these debates about the ending.
The big problem with it is that it diminishes the menace of the Shivans, which cheapens the drama of the story.
How so? Since when does shivan being fallibale cheapen them? They were fallible from day 1.
The GTVA wouldn't have beaten them otherwise.
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I wouldn't call that 'out-of-the-box', nor unanticipated. It was one of the possibilities that came up a lot ten years ago when we first started having these debates about the ending.
The big problem with it is that it diminishes the menace of the Shivans, which cheapens the drama of the story.
How so? Since when does shivan being fallibale cheapen them? They were fallible from day 1.
The GTVA wouldn't have beaten them otherwise.
how about this for scary, the sath losses in the cut scene were planned on the part of the shivans and was an acceptable loss for them
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Of course losing one Sath was acceptable. You still had 80.
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Of course losing one Sath was acceptable. You still had 80.
i meant with the ending cut scene the number that deactivated/died in the procedure to find the loss of that number of powerful warships acceptable must be near worst case scenario for the GTVA
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They lost AT LEAST 4, and probably much more (since the cutscene only shows what happens to several of them. It's safe to assume a similar thing happens to other sathanas groups)
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I wouldn't call that 'out-of-the-box', nor unanticipated. It was one of the possibilities that came up a lot ten years ago when we first started having these debates about the ending.
The big problem with it is that it diminishes the menace of the Shivans, which cheapens the drama of the story.
How so? Since when does shivan being fallibale cheapen them? They were fallible from day 1.
The GTVA wouldn't have beaten them otherwise.
The GTVA didn't beat them. The GTVA got its ass kicked.
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I believe the point in stating this is that if the Shivans were infallible the GTVA would have been eradicated completely...
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But all indications point toward the Shivans being able to utterly annihilate the GTVA without much effort. In FS2, they chose to let the GTVA live. They weren't driven away, or anything like that.
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Except they were sealed off in Capella. Maybe.
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We don't know what happened.
We don't know whether the Shivans were trying to block off the system or whether the GTVA somehow disrupted their plan (unlikely, but possible.)
The answer, as usual, is 'whatever works for your mod.'
I believe the point in stating this is that if the Shivans were infallible the GTVA would have been eradicated completely...
First, nobody is claiming infallibility or invincibillity. Second, we don't know that was their goal. Third, the node collapse plan may have successfully contained them (even if it is only a temporary measure, as Petrarch says.)
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I will say this. In Freespace 1, the Shivans were attacking the GTVA. This we can tell from the end of Freespace 1 (Assuming Alpha 1 knows what the **** he's saying, though since he probably saw the Ancient's cutscenes because he mentions them, I would say he does) In FS2, the Shivans seem much less aggressive than the Lucifer fleet was. (After all, if the Shivans really wanted to, they could have attempted a breakout from the Knossos at any time.) But they didn't. Why not? The Lucifer was destroyed by a last ditch act of desperation on the part of the GTA. Had the mission failed, the GTVA would have been destroyed easily. From this, this is my belief.
1. Regardless of whether or not the Lucifer fleet was seperated from the main Shivan force, the Lucifer fleet's goal was the annihilation of the GTVA.
2. The Sathanas fleet did not attempt to destroy the GTVA, and was only attempting to create a buffer, or the GTVA had really advanced so much that the Shivans simply could not make headway.
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Many campaigns have explanations for all this.
I'm personally pretty sold on one idea, which I think FreeSpace canon actually makes very explicit.
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The GTVA didn't beat them. The GTVA got its ass kicked.
What about the Lucifur?
We know shivans are very fallible, and they made mistakes before. They failed to stop as at capturing a cruiser, they failed to stop us from getting their tech, or scans, or destroying practicely all of the Lucy fleet.
Not to mention that their pilots are mediocre at best.
I really don't see why shivans making a miscalculation/mistake at Capella can somehow make em less dangerous? They got 80 Sathanasas. Even if they were put retards at the helm they could still plow trough the GTVA.
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Again, I'm not claiming the Shivans are infallible.
Shivan pilots are actually, canonically, often a bit better than GTVA pilots; check out the AI levels in FRED.
If the Capella detonation was a 'mistake' it's an enormous pratfall. 'Whoops, we blew up a star and a good number of our invincible juggernaughts! Heh heh heh.'
Whatever happened there was, I'd prefer to think, all part of the plan. And I think the narrative supports that.
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The Sathanes left behind were a necessary sacrifice(just not enough power(or whatever else) to let everyone jump out), along with(in their minds) all the other Shivan warships left in Capella.
I do suspect things weren't perfect for them; I imagine if the GTVA had just let the Shivans have Capella, the secondary warships' crews would have abandoned their vessels to be on the Sathanes for the superjump, rather than be left behind to be consumed by the supernova.
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We don't know that (the first sentence of yours, that is.)
Again, it's possible they just don't care about crew survival.
By that point the GTVA had effectively ceased to be a threat of any kind. The Shivans had as much time as they needed to do whatever they liked.
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Yeah, and I confirmed with QuantumDelta that Shivan pilots are actually generally a cut above their GTVA counterparts (except apparently on Into the Lions Den.)
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The GTVA didn't beat them. The GTVA got its ass kicked.
What about the Lucifur?
We know shivans are very fallible, and they made mistakes before. They failed to stop as at capturing a cruiser, they failed to stop us from getting their tech, or scans, or destroying practicely all of the Lucy fleet.
Not to mention that their pilots are mediocre at best.
I really don't see why shivans making a miscalculation/mistake at Capella can somehow make em less dangerous? They got 80 Sathanasas. Even if they were put retards at the helm they could still plow trough the GTVA.
Canonically there's only about 4 pilots we /know of/ in the GTVA that are better than the AVERAGE shivan pilot.
[edit] apparently bearbaitings friendly ai have a higher rank than the shivans too.
Shivans aren't infallible if they were, neither game would have ended the way it did, it's quite probably as Battuta surmised that they just don't care about individuals.
A lot of people see/look upon the Shivans with a sort of anthropomorphised view of the species, it's quite peculiar since the game continually reinforces how alien and unknowable they are.
Beyond the fact that such disjointed behaviour between the two generations supports strongly, a separate faction(hive/collective/group/legion/whatever) theory, it's highly possible that the process they began in the star couldn't be aborted and there was little/notime to move resources through the node considering the fact that jump drives have a recharge rate, the popular theory is that they used the stars drastically altered gravity during it's collapse into a super nova to jump somewhere completely unknown.
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Shivan pilots are actually, canonically, often a bit better than GTVA pilots; check out the AI levels in FRED.
AFAIK, I've never seen their AI set to anything more than the default.
And they tend to die in droves, not only by my hand, but also by my wingmen. In all my playtroughs I've never gotten the impression of them being better pilots than a GTVA average.
If the Capella detonation was a 'mistake' it's an enormous pratfall. 'Whoops, we blew up a star and a good number of our invincible juggernaughts! Heh heh heh.'
Whatever happened there was, I'd prefer to think, all part of the plan. And I think the narrative supports that.
There's nothing in the narrative that confirms that. They planing it is no more accurate then they f***** something up.
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Again, as I've said, it's a case of 'whatever works for your mod', but I strongly doubt that V intended that outro to be some kind of accident or mishap.
The way it's directed and written, including Petrarch's aftermath, suggests an intentional act on the part of the Shivans.
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Seriously, you don't get Robert freakin' Loggia to deliver your game's closing monologue if what he's saying isn't important. :p
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Petrach is speculating, he doesn't know and that is explicitly pointed.
That said, there are many possibilites. It could be the GTVA knowingly or not, caused the shivans to mess it up. That one sathanas that was destroyer (or the other that was lured) could have been critical.
I meas - who knows?
Maybe the shivies wanted to create a super-node (but in the middle of the sun? No friggin way)
Maybe the just blew up Capella for kicks
Maybe the are making an interstellar nebula highway
It's impossible to tell.
I really would love it if [V] would spit out some of the idea they had for FS3.... Who was the main writer anyway?
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There were two, IIRC.
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Adam Pletcher wrote most of FS1, he helped someone else write most of FS2, can't remember their name though..
And seriously, if you don't realise that closing monologue = massive hint, even if it's just a character 'theorising' you haven't been exposed to enough fiction.
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Ever heard of subeversion or deconstruction?
Didn't FS1 talk about shivans rebuilding nodes? Did we see it in FS2? Nope...
Gain, flatout assuming too much from what little we have is...wrong.
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I'm fairly certain I know why Capella was destroyed, and why the Shivans won't try to rebuild the jump nodes out.
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Good for you then.
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Well, you're right that it's bad to assume. There are many possible answers, and it's just a case of 'whatever works for your mod.'
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Shivan pilots are actually, canonically, often a bit better than GTVA pilots; check out the AI levels in FRED.
AFAIK, I've never seen their AI set to anything more than the default.
And they tend to die in droves, not only by my hand, but also by my wingmen. In all my playtroughs I've never gotten the impression of them being better pilots than a GTVA average.
That's because their equipment sucks compared to your wingmen.
I basically agree with everything you said though. We just don't know, and whatever works for your campaign goes. Canonically, all we have is Petrarch's speculation.