Author Topic: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions  (Read 9838 times)

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Offline Lucika

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Honestly... if there were to be a continuation of the story I think it'd be a 100 years or more later with no sign of the Shivans.

I feel that Inferno might actually be near what FS3 would be. Just add a bit less POWERHOUSE EXCITMENT and a bit of Technological Superiority.
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Offline Bob-san

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
After years I feel pretty comfortable on a couple of things:

1) The Terrans and Vasudans didn't matter so much to them in FS2.  The supernova was something that the GTVA was witness to... rather than it being directed at them.

2) The Shivans are supposed to be the cosmic destroyers and the cosmic preservers according to FS1.  Their contact in FS2 may have been premature...

3) The command briefs suggest that there was an immense subspace field being generated around the Capella star.  The star was artificially forced into a supernova state. Since we know that subspace travel is highly dependent on gravity wells of stars ... manipulating a star on such a level may allow for some sort of special circumstances.

The rest I'm not too comfortable about. Where they went and why are total mysteries. Sort of a fun mystery to have.  Honestly... if there were to be a continuation of the story I think it'd be a 100 years or more later with no sign of the Shivans.
What if they were actually stealing Capella? I always thought there were too many stars in the Nebula; hotspots I can agree with, but dozens of stars? Meh. Either that was one huge supernova or something was forcing more matter there. Actually could have been cool to hear about some quack theory about the Shivans trying to dissipate the nebula so that there'd be one absolutely massive gravity well, perhaps as the result of a black hole.
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Offline Timerlane

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Maybe "superjumps" (or whatever you want to call what the Shivans did) require a certain number and/or configuration of multi-star system to perform. The Nebula system was(or at least one of) the last time they did this, at least in the vicinity of our space.

It could then follow: Their scouting force(the 'original' Rakshasa and Maras), having suddenly discovered(or were notified of) a revived jump node, came to find/confirm Capella as a viable system to perform a superjump, but was stopped by the Carthage and Dahshor. Everything after that was either a continuation of this or an attempt to send forces to secure Capella, so the GTVA wouldn't interfere with what they were doing(eventually, even so far as to send ships to try to set up a blockade at the Vega-Capella and Epsilon Pegasi-Capella jump nodes, leading the GTVA to believe the Shivans were trying to expand beyond Capella). ETAK was a curious diversion, but their goal this time was always to get to Capella, not to attack the GTVA.

Of course, it's possible the Lucifer fleet had already 'told' the Sathani about Capella(somehow), but they had no practical way of getting there until the Gamma Draconis Knossos had been activated(though why the Lucifer fleet or Great War Shivan remnants couldn't have done it themselves is a question).
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 12:37:19 pm by Timerlane »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Of course, it's possible the Lucifer fleet had already 'told' the Sathani about Capella(somehow), but they had no practical way of getting there until the Gamma Draconis Knossos had been activated(though why the Lucifer fleet or Great War Shivan remnants couldn't have done it themselves is a question).
Or even why the Sathani didn't followed the same way Lucy did to reach GTVA systems. Given that GTVA never found which node the Lucy took to enter their space (or even if it come from a node at all), the question why more Shivans didn't pour in our systems the same way is still open.
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Offline headdie

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Lucifer fleet probably scouted the route taking them hundreds if not thousands of years hence the tech difference between FS1 and FS2 when compared to the age of the shivan species.  basically Lucifer fleet left "shivan space" to start scouting node routes around the galaxy and basically blundered its way into our patch of the former Ancient territory for possibly the Shivans came upon the ancients through an unstable node that since collapsed.  In the time between Lucifer leaving and FS2 the shivans develop beam tech and build the Sath fleet so when the GD Knossos activates they pummel us.  Might explain the uniqueness of the Lucifer if it is a specialized class of destroyer for prolonged exploration and opens the possibility for other Lucifer fleets

another angle is that the Shivans probably knew of Capella from their tangle with the ancients
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Offline Timerlane

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
It's possible the GW Lucifer fleet is a remnant of the Shivan fleet that destroyed the Ancients, and ended up stuck on this side when the Gamma Draconis Knossos was shut down(perhaps with the Ancients' better knowledge of subspace, the Knossos could also be used somehow to close an unstable node faster than merely allowing it to decay naturally?).

Either the Gamma Draconis Knossos was shut down by someone, or it somehow shut itself down, as I doubt Bosch could have done much in terms of repairs had the portal simply run itself to death over hundreds or thousands of years, especially not without drawing attention to such operations. The fact that the second and third Knossos were still in operation seems to suggest to me that the Gamma Draconis Knossos was shut down on purpose, by someone.

To the best of my knowledge, we don't know exactly where the Ancients' homeworld was, but if it was in the Altair system, that is clear on the other side of the official nodemap from Capella(and Gamma Draconis). Perhaps the Ancients tried to cut off the Shivans a bit too late, just as the GTVA did, though they may have succeeded in cutting off Shivan reinforcements, including the Sathani, or whatever else the Shivans may have been using at the time(while reasonably logical, perhaps, nothing explicitly says the Sathanas having uber-beam cannons is actually any part of the superjump technology, merely that the arms which have the cannons on them bend to generate what certainly appears to be a subspace warp opening).

If the Lucifer fleet is a remnant, it would also need to either find a way to 'sleep' or shut down for thousands of years, or(more realistically) start manufacturing parts or cannibalizing some of their ships to keep the others running. Societally, that has some interesting potential. The Lucifer fleet that the GTA and PVN run into, having lived apart from the rest of their kind for thousands of years, could/should be of a very different culture than the rest of the Shivans(the FS2-era Shivans). Throw in the fact that the canon Silent Threat campaign claims the GTI may have known of the Shivans before the Ross 128 massacre, and were studying Shivans at Jotenheim, at least since the Ross 128 massacre, and I imagine it's possible the GTI 'accidentally' poked the proverbial sleeping Lucifer fleet bear, and got way more than they bargained for.

FS2 could have been all one giant misunderstanding by everyone:
Bosch: Thinks we need an alliance with the Shivans, or else they'll destroy us when they come back.
GTVA(perhaps apart from the highest/higher levels of Command): Thinks the Shivans are a race of vicious, omnicidal xenophobes who can't be reasoned with, because of experience with an isolated group of their kind.
Shivans: Just want to go home, and as something like a race of ancient pseudo-eldrich abominations, really don't care about the puny Terrans/Vasudans, as long as they don't get in their way. Who says the GTC Vigilant or an escorting fighter didn't panic and fire the first shot, or otherwise do something that might have provoked them(intentionally or unintentionally)?

...okay, so they have awfully big guns for a civilization of not-really-warlike beings; maybe they prefer to put up a front to cow 'lesser' races by fear and intimidation(explaining their love of obviously evil-looking, pointy red-and-black-motif ships)? :P

Much later EDIT: So, yeah, I forgot about the CBAni depicting the Rakshasha beaming the Vigilant seconds after jumping in(using totally incorrect beam arcs for the front beams), but technically, their first contact was with the Trinity, not the Vigilant, so it's still open for debate.

Just had to correct myself in case someone came across this post in the future.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2010, 09:39:49 pm by Timerlane »

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
I agree with Timerlane about the idea of the Lucifer fleet as being fundamentally distinct from the Shivans encountered from FS2, and that the Ancients shutting down the Knossos in Gamma Draconis in a too-late attempt to stop the Shivan onslaught provides the explanation for that discrepancy.  The idea of the GTI happening to stumble across a hibernating Lucifer fleet is definitely a compelling one, and I think it fits with the Shivans' behavior in the original game; they essentially pick off right where they left off with the Ancients 8000 years ago, just against two new targets.  The FS2 Shivan forces never made any full-fledged attempts to invade the entirety of GTVA space (with the possible exception of the original Sathanas, which could have been scouting more than anything else), suggesting that Capella was their true objective.

 
Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Reading all this is mind-boggling  :eek:

 

Offline IronForge

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Watch that animation closely again. The shivians were jumping INTO the star. As if the subspace node was INSIDE the star. It didn't go boom yet, they jumped out THEN it went boom.
So my theory is the node is inside the star and their using it caused the star to supernova. Thats why capella and not some other system. Where it leads to, its hinted that 'maybe they are lost too, searching for a way back home'. So the node is INSIDE the star and stars are pretty damn big innit. So they had to enlarge the node (like a goatse  :lol: :drevil:) so as to be able to go through without having to travel through the sun and get crispy fried.
Its of course up to speculation what the boom did to the node.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
No, they were jumping into subspace vortices generated in front of them. It doesn't seem to matter which direction you are facing before entering subspace.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
I would suggest you to use "I think they" or "They probably did" instead of "They did, period" when making assumptions. It's becoming quite hard to tell which argument is canon and which is assumption in the discussion.
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Offline jr2

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
No, they were jumping into subspace vortices generated in front of them. It doesn't seem to matter which direction you are facing before entering subspace.

When a ship is jumping into a node in FS, it jumps... into a subspace vortex in front of it.  As long as it is within the confines of the node entrance, it will enter it.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Yeah but we can't positively say they were jumping 'into the star'. They could be jumping anywhere; the fact that they're facing the star isn't evidence on its own.

 

Offline Desertfox287

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Me and a friend were discussing this once, and the possibilities that it could lead into FS2.  I personally think that the sun, was used by the shivans as some sort of node, unless they ran to use another node, which I do not believe is likely. Possibly from there, they went home, to another part of the solar system or wherever. That's what I don't know, but this is all speculation, so I can't accurately say that that is in fact the reason they jumped out

 

Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
He you're all referring to the visible effects of the Shivans on the Star. I'd like to put forward that nodes are not visible entities. So the fact the star was resonating with the Sathanii has little to do with the nodes radius. It could have extended beyond the Shivan Armada with no visible indicators meaning that when the Jugs jumped. They were actually using the theoretical node in question.
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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Judging by the fact a dozen SJ's were lost during the Supernova, I'd say that something went wrong with whatever they were up to.
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Offline Desertfox287

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Or that it isn't a perfect process. I believe that they either have some new type of technology,something learned from the ancients, or even a process that they've been using for centuries.. Also, do we know the purpose of the shivan comm nodes? I haven't played the regular campaign in awhile, but if I remember right, we don't know their purpose
« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 08:56:41 pm by Desertfox287 »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Judging by the fact a dozen SJ's were lost during the Supernova, I'd say that something went wrong with whatever they were up to.

Or they just don't care.

And didn't we only see 4 get left behind?

 

Offline IronForge

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Well as you can see from all campaigns, the ship in question must be inside the node's radius or facing it within its effective range.
The green thing doesn't actually exist, its just a hud indicator, obvious but lets get that out of the way.
So my theory is that there is an unstable, very small node (remember some campaigns the node is so week you have to be literally in the sphere) in the sun. Suns are large buring pools of gas, there could very well be a node inside. However good luck getting to it. So, ripping the node open is what I think the shivians did. Like a goatse. Opening it big enough for the entire armada to go through. Those few getting pwnt, ask yourself did they really get pwnt? When it went supernova, sure maybe due to bad timing, they only lost a few ships when they had so many, these are just acceptable losses. The brief said they weren't capable of advanced strategising, so my assumption is they are pre programmed beings made by some ancient race, or just some species of animals. Is it just me or do shivian ships seem to be grown, not built?

 

Offline Eltrotraw

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Re: Where the heck did those juggernauts jump to, and other assorted questions
Let's remember that Petrarch does offer some of his theorems on what may or may not have happened - what was it?
"The explosion of a star might be the bridge between our world - and their own."
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As mentioned, there's a distinct difference between what the Lucifer did compared to the Sathanas fleet. The Lucifer was actively seeking out targets to destroy, while the Sathanas fleet didn't really care too much about hunting down and destroying Alliance craft.

If they really wanted the Alliance craft to be destroyed, I find it odd that they'd focus their efforts by using squadrons of bombers and some cruisers rather than deploying the big guns like a few Ravana or just sending a Juggernaut near the jump nodes(like what happened with the Colossus). Is it that they needed every Juggernaut for the Capella star? If so, I bring up the Colossus - why did that one go out of its way to destroy it?

Here's another interesting note: Replay High Noon(off of like Tech Room or whatever).

Notice how the Colossus is set to attack the Sathanas, but the Sathanas clearly doesn't care and continues going in a straight line and doesn't turn or whatever to attack the Colossus.

If we note the Shivan's actions in FS2, one could theorize that the Alliance is merely in the way of Shivan activity, and that they weren't trying to hunt down the Alliance, at least, not to the extent they were in FS1.