I know, but is the beam powerful enough to hit the ground with enough force to knock small fragments into orbit?
1) Either the Lucifer's Shivans are different from the Sathanis' ones (what exactly this difference is is anyone guess), and so they don't share the exact same technology (and maybe don't have the same goals, but that's another problem).
2) Or the Lucifer was a very costly prototype, and its destruction made the Shivans abandon the project (that's probably the same reason why we didn't built another Hades after the GTI rebellion).
3) Or the Lucifer wasn't the only of its kind, but after the destruction of FS1's Lucifer, Shivans decommissioned the other Lucifers (high maintenance cost ? obsolete technology ?)
4) Or Shivans still use Lucifers, but none was encountered during the Capella incident.
4) Or Shivans still use Lucifers, but none was encountered during the Capella incident.
Feel free to correct me :)
the best explanation I've seen is it was a purpose built ship designed to destroy lesser civilisations, too expensive to use in general situations, but highly economical if you are dealing with a race that can't scratch shields. they probly have a billion of them somewhere, just didn't deploy them in FS2.The way I see it- there's just as many Lucifers as Saths, only the Shivan strategery is based on using Lucifers against civilisations that can't punch through it's shields (what good would it be if an Aeolus took it's time and blew up the reactors destroying the whole ship just a few minutes after it reached GTVA space?); Big 'S's against civilisations that can destroy a Lucifer with ease, and bigger ships against civilisations which can stop a fleet of Saths.
and they still don't have weapons powerful enough to penetrate them and the only way to destroy a Lucifer is inside subspace.Damnit. Will people STOP to claim things like this when it is only assumptions ? If you have anything proving it, tell us, and if not, say that it's what you think and not that it's the truth !
But the only Lucifer humans ever encountered got destroyed, so it means they never had the chance to study the shields thoroughly enough, and they still don't have weapons powerful enough to penetrate them and the only way to destroy a Lucifer is inside subspace.So why was that Lucifer in "Blue Planet" vulnerable for attacks?
For God's sake, read posts in your own thread! Beams penetrate shields.To be fair there's nothing in canon that actually says for sure that beams penetrate the Lucifer's shields. Only conjecture.
We have no evidence that they're special.
So...you're agreeing with me?
So...you're agreeing with me?
Partially.
While I believe that the shields are, in fact, penetrable by beams, we have canon evidence that the Lucy's shields are differ from the normal ones.
So...you're agreeing with me?
Partially.
While I believe that the shields are, in fact, penetrable by beams, we have canon evidence that the Lucy's shields are differ from the normal ones.
We do?
We have 'invulnerable, not merely resistant', but if the shield recharge rate (off five huge internal reactors) is simply larger than any practical damage rate, then that statement holds.
So...you're agreeing with me?
Partially.
While I believe that the shields are, in fact, penetrable by beams, we have canon evidence that the Lucy's shields are differ from the normal ones.
We do?
We have 'invulnerable, not merely resistant', but if the shield recharge rate (off five huge internal reactors) is simply larger than any practical damage rate, then that statement holds.
"Footage suggests that the Lucifer was using a new type of shield, impervious to any of our attacks."
So...you're agreeing with me?
Partially.
While I believe that the shields are, in fact, penetrable by beams, we have canon evidence that the Lucy's shields are differ from the normal ones.
We do?
We have 'invulnerable, not merely resistant', but if the shield recharge rate (off five huge internal reactors) is simply larger than any practical damage rate, then that statement holds.
"Footage suggests that the Lucifer was using a new type of shield, impervious to any of our attacks."
Again, completely compatible with what I just said.
So...you're agreeing with me?
Partially.
While I believe that the shields are, in fact, penetrable by beams, we have canon evidence that the Lucy's shields are differ from the normal ones.
We do?
We have 'invulnerable, not merely resistant', but if the shield recharge rate (off five huge internal reactors) is simply larger than any practical damage rate, then that statement holds.
"Footage suggests that the Lucifer was using a new type of shield, impervious to any of our attacks."
Again, completely compatible with what I just said.
Is it?
I've said that is a new type of shield while you've said that it is only a bigger and better version of the normal ones.
Why did the shivans shield the lucifer and didn't shield the sathanas which is much bigger and supposed to be stronger? And why didn't the shivans use any Lucifer destroyers in FS2?Maybe their ships are mostly intended to be operated in subspace. Maybe "normal" space is only marginally relevant for their plans.
Unlike the shields on the Shivan fighters and bombers, this shield appears impervious, not merely resistant, to all of our weapons.And that nothing the GTA had at the time would likely have had enough anti-shield power to appear to make a dent in a super-strength shield.
Others say that there are other Lucifer-class destroyers out there, but were withdrawn from the Shivan fleet and mothballed after the destruction of this one.This fan theory made me laugh (and hurt my brain). And i know it's not your theory androgeus, you were just mentioning some fan theories.
*snip*By extension the entire Shivan armada shoulda been pulled from the frontlines, and we should've been facing a new ship every battle!
If it was a prototype, wouldn't they still have schematics for it?*snip*By extension the entire Shivan armada shoulda been pulled from the frontlines, and we should've been facing a new ship every battle!
It would be much more reasonable to think that the Lucifer was merely a ship with a prototype sheath shielding system, and the prototype was lost with it.
Cost, economy, money, is all a human concept because humans don't think like a hive.
Seriously, one of them barely gets destroyed in a co-species last ditch effort to save earth. And the shivans conclusion is that since one of the lucifer class ships gets destroyed, that they should mothball every single one of these highly effective ships.
I'm sure the Shivans could build as many Lucifers as they wanted in the FS2 era. They'd just be worthless: armed with two SReds and no longer invincible.I don't really take that FS2 Lucifer loadout to be canon, or at least particularly strong canon, seeing as how Lucifer-class ships never made an appearance in FS2 proper. It smacks more of someone at :v: throwing it into the tables and loading it out with pre-existing FS2 weapons.
Damage-wise, IIRC, the original Lucifer "beam" was stronger than a SRed.
I believe ti took 6-8 hits to destroy the Bastion?
Damage-wise, IIRC, the original Lucifer "beam" was stronger than a SRed.
I believe ti took 6-8 hits to destroy the Bastion?
The damage values of the Shivan Super Lasers are probably closer to the LRed than anything else.
They still have a lot of HP, whatever that counts for.
I wonder what the game would have been like in this hypotetical scenario.
I wonder what the game would have been like in this hypothetical scenario.Frustrating if the Lilith mounted an SSL. Then again, it rarely appears (as far as I can remember, anyway), so it might not have made a big difference.
There is a better scenerio that would have soemthing like that: What If: The Great War. Too bad ST Reborn didn't give the Shivans beams and base it off of What If. What If would make better canon.Yes, I loved that campaign. Too bad "Doomsday" refused to load, but i played the rest and it was lots of fun.
Then again, it rarely appears (as far as I can remember, anyway), so it might not have made a big difference.
I wonder what the game would have been like in this hypothetical scenario.Frustrating if the Lilith mounted an SSL. Then again, it rarely appears (as far as I can remember, anyway), so it might not have made a big difference.
Not like the really ever sent cruisers/destroyers against Liliths in FS1 to my knowledge.
One for one, the Lilith can easily destroy any of our cruisers.
Given the probable fact that beams are the only weapons that can neutralize shields in the FreeSpace universe, the Sathanas was probably shielded (even though it was not stated in the tech room). The Lucifer actually did not have shields in the Engine, rather the "invulnerable" tag was checked.
but that doesn't explain the lack of fighter sheilds in subspace. i always thought of it as subspace used too much energy for shields to work.
but that doesn't explain the lack of fighter sheilds in subspace. i always thought of it as subspace used too much energy for shields to work.
The camera shows a medium shot of the two scientists at the terminal, standing near a small enclosed test area. Energy & light flickers from inside the test enclosure.
[watching monitor together]
TerranSci-1: You see from this part of the captured ship breakdown the energy flow is constant.
VasudanSci-1: Yes…but how do you explain what happens during a jump? It doesn’t seem as if the rate is sufficient to support the required level.
TerranSci-1: Very good observation “EEEEE” You live up to your credentials. You see…
[walking to another monitor]
The Terran gets out of his chair and the Vasudan follows him over to the research equipment where the other scientists are tweaking things.[possibly cut this part if we don’t want to show more scientists]
[cut to monitor displaying some sort of graphical test readouts]
TerranSci-1: We’ve been able to get a prototype shield system working under normal conditions. However when we simulate jump phenomena there’s no way to keep the power levels high enough.
VasudanSci-1: But under normal conditions the shields actually protect the inside structures?
[cut to show both scientists]
TerranSci-1: Correct. They stop almost all damage from getting through, at the cost of energy, which explains how the Shivan ships have been able to defend against our attacks so easily. Despite its shortcomings in subspace, we should be able to start producing shield systems for use on our ships.
True, except the stupid fan theory i'm calling **** and was debunking merely centered around the lucifer; not all shivan ships in the game like you mentioned. I took the argument a step further extending it to include the sathanas to help explain my point further. I mentioned the sathanas because it's essentially fs2's "lucifer". I then made a comparison of what would happen if the shivans did follow the logic behind the stupid fan theory for both the lucifer and the sathanas fleet (part of the stupid fan theory was the assumption that there was more than one lucifer).*snip*By extension the entire Shivan armada shoulda been pulled from the frontlines, and we should've been facing a new ship every battle!
It would be much more reasonable to think that the Lucifer was merely a ship with a prototype sheath shielding system, and the prototype was lost with it.Again, i was debunking a stupid fan theory because it was **** (and that's all i did, nothing more believe it or not). How hard was that to not understand? You read my last post incorrectly; all the stuff i wrote went over your head. I can tell based on how you responded.
True, except the stupid fan theory i'm calling **** and was debunking merely centered around the lucifer; not all shivan ships in the game like you mentioned. I took the argument a step further extending it to include the sathanas to help explain my point further.
And were yourself debunked in turn. :PNot really. The way stormkeeper responded appears evident that he thinks my exploring of this fan theory was followed with trying to pass off some of the information within it as de facto.
Others say that there are other Lucifer-class destroyers out there, but were withdrawn from the Shivan fleet and mothballed after the destruction of this one.Either way, this fan theory that androgeus mentioned, i have explained in enough detail to show off why it's a crappy theory, why i'm calling it stupid, and ultimately something that didn't happen. I didn't contribute an opinion on whether or not i think that there's more than one lucifer.
Not really. The way stormkeeper responded appears evident that he thinks my exploring of this fan theory was followed with trying to pass off some of the information within it as de facto.
Debunking that theory wasn't too hard. The example of mothballing all very effective lucifer vessels just because one got destroyed would be dumb. Hence through this logic, mothballing all very effective sathani vessels just because one got destroyed would be would be just as dumb (and also through this logic in fs2, plausible if this fan theory is what the shivans did if they had a lucifer fleet; you wouldn't have seen anymore sathani past the first one that got destroyed).
Perhaps the blowing up of Capella was just the Saths commiting hara-kiri? The ones that warped out may have elected to go home and be used for target practice, while the ones which stayed behind decided to explode along with the star.You're right. Saths for target practice and to watch go boomie is way more cool than just mothballing them. The shivans are probably getting stoned for the light show.
That theory has nothing on the Capellan Barbecue Theory (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Capellan_Barbecue_Theory).
The first Sathanas encountered was apparently a scout to the Sathanas fleet.
Do you know what the word 'apparently' means?
Just because we only saw one first does not mean that it was only a scout.
The Lucifer COULD be a scout ship indeed. It was like:
Shivan Leaders: "Hey, can you mind exploring this galaxy, please, Lucy?"
Lucy: "OK"
Shivan Scouts: "The Lucy has been destroyed but in the process we have found a couple of new races in the process."
Shivan Leaders: "Good. Let's take a shot at them. Let's rock!"
*Sathanas comes in and pummels down Capella*
Though the departure of the Sathani still kinda puzzles me to an extent.
Science vessels lol, what's the Warship?
Science vessels lol, what's the Warship?
The massive ships from Blue Planet: AoA :P
And Rakshakas are fighters!
what the hell does that make the Seraphim a midge with attitude? :eek2:
I think it is proof that after the first sathanas got destroyed is when the shivans decided to get rid of the rest of the sathani. The method was the super nova.:doubt: :wtf: :rolleyes: :p :nod: That was my response to that. No what did they get stoned on?
The problem was that the shivans got stoned way too early and forgot that remote piloting the sathani to the blast site was a better idea. So they all got in the sathani and flew them to the capella star themselves.
This is the reason why you see half of the sathani just bugging out of there when the star goes boomie. At least half the fleet realized "OH ****!!!" and got out of there, while the other half were damn nearly stoned comatose enjoying their last light show.
No what did they get stoned on?Vaporizers with super dank **** and pot brownies.
He's still upset we demolished his argument about retiring the Lucifer.Apparently NGTM-1R does think that there was more than lucifer and that the rest of them got mothballed when just one of these highly effective ships got destroyed :yes:
| A | = The Shivan warship can be destroyed. |
| B | = The Shivan warship is in subspace. |
| C | = The Shivan warship has über-shields. |
| D | = Any über-shields on the Shivan warship are working. |
| E | = The Shivan warship is destroyed. |
| F | = A jump node collapses. |
| 1. | B ↔ D` | (hyp) | Any über-shields will be offline if (and only if) the Shivan warship is in subspace. |
| 2. | C` ˅ D` ↔ A | (hyp) | The Shivan warship can be destroyed if (and only if) it hasn't got operational über-shields. |
| 3. | E → A | (hyp) | If the Shivan warship is destroyed, obviously it's possible to destroy it. |
| 4. | B ˄ E → F | (hyp) | If the Shivan warship is in subspace and it gets destroyed, the jump node will collapse. |
| 5. | C | (hyp) | Supposing the warship has über-shields, |
| 6. | E | (hyp) | and supposing the alliance does what it needs to do in order to destroy it (thereby destroying it), |
| 7. | A | (3, 6, mp) | then the ship can indeed be destroyed, |
| 8. | C` ˅ D` | (2, 7, ----) | Since we know the ship can be destroyed, it must either not have über-shields, or if it does, they must not be working. |
| 9. | D` | (5, 8, ----) | So obviously if a ship has über-shields and it gets destroyed, they must not have been working when it got destroyed. |
| 10. | B | (1, 9, ----) | The only known time über-shields don't work is when they're in subspace, |
| 11. | B ˄ E | (6, 10, add) | So the only way the alliance can destroy the Shivan warship in subspace, |
| 12. | F | (4, 11, mp) | and the jump node will collapse as a result. |
I quite agree with that, it's much more likely that the Lucifer class ship is used in initial encounters/until the weakness is found, assuming that it doesn't happen in 9/10+ occasions and the civilisation is wiped out.
Unfortunately we have no evidence but yea, they wouldn't mothball the shipclass because one (two) race(s) worked out it could be blown up in subspace.
Well I don't wanna rip your first post up because it's too much effort to argue with you but I think you over anthropomorphise the shivans.
Nevermind that we really shouldn't fall into the trap of assigning human emotions or considerations to shivan organisational structures.
For all we know the shivan fleets might be entirely different factions between the two games.
The Lucifer in a position where most species in the universe are not likely to be able to touch/track is vulnerable, the results of that vulnerability being exploited is 'terrible' (oh wait, do the shivans reallllllly give a crap about nodes being blown up? Doubt it, moreover, do they give a crap about going all out for some peonical specie that probably figures in on the level of a gnat?)
The Lucifer as an untouchable Super-Destroyer in normal space has a much greater psychological impact on a specie than a fleet of destroyable targets, even if they're massive, hard to blow up, and can work together to make a star go nova/supernova.?
Your theory on the star going supernova as a shock and awe tactic is probably off too, again, attributing human traits to them.
It's unlikely that any other Lucifers were taken out of active service because it's unlikely that one case in billions of years of experience is worth decomissioning hundreds, if not thousands of destroyers, we're not talking about a crappy little collection of ships held as the 'might' of a collection of about 10 systems.
Why are the Shivans going to care?
They work on galatic time scales, they work on unimaginably vast numbers and over who knows what amount of space.
They can rebuild the node, for one, they can overwhelm such strike forces, and they needn't thrust such ships into vulnerable positions like they did in FS1.
We don't even know WHY they did that in FS1.
You make a hell of a lot of assumptions, taking them for granted on such a level that you don't even realise you're doing it.
Nor is the lack of their presence something you can assume is evidence for their retirement.
You assume they even see it as a design flaw that they destroy subspace nodes when it blows up, perhaps it's not, perhaps it's a defence mechanism if an enemy is technologically advanced enough to do it then they consider the specie enough of a threat to seal them off entirely, on an intergalactic scale one system is insignificant (even to the ancients, let alone the shivans).
I haven't been making assumptions, I have been offering counterpoints.
If anywhere they visited was suspect (and, you're failing to understand again) then the ancients would have been likely to discover the technology from a specie that existed before them as well.
The Ancients realise that the Shivans had been in the area before the Ancients ascended to power already.
You assume the Shivans even give a crap about psychological warefare when the only evidence pointing to them doing so (ever) is the Lucifer heading as directlyish as possible to both Vasuda and Sol.
Even the fact that the Shivans might be of separate factions is still possible/as likely as yours.
As for the Shivans being around for a long time, it's mentioned in the Ancients dialogue, you don't even know the games so why are you even bothering to write theories on the lore?
My point is not to proffer a competing theory, it has been to point out that you could so easily be completely-wrong.
You don't know, at all, so why?
Perhaps Shivans don't build ships, but grow them, perhaps Shivans don't grow ships they ctrl-left click, Perhaps the Shivans are dealing with a finite series of ships and haven't constructed any for the past few billion years and therefore can't afford to retire Lucifers.
Perhaps the Shivans in their grand majesty DNA altered Apes to evolve into Humans and beyond :rolleyes:
Perhaps the game designers decided that it would make the original unplayable if the TERRIBLE AND UNDYING UBERSHIP OF DOOM became a common destroyer.
You assume they even have a tactical/strategic plan of action to combat alien specie, I mean, YOU might be really OCD but would you have a tactical/strategic plan of action to combat an ant infestation? Or would you just pour hotwater down the holes they come out of?
There's /plenty/ of emotional/human military crap in your comments the entire things you post are based on those concepts as such.
I stick with the idea that there was only one Lucifer. It was an experiment to see if the shielding system has worth the price. It definitely didn't, so there was no mass production.I'd say it was a pretty good test. The Lucifer accomplished much in its fight against the Terrans and Vasudans. Since we don't know the price of the shields, or how hard they are to construct/install, I can't safely say that they just quit having shields outright because of it.
I liked the idea of big super shields on capital ships. For the lucifer and great war era ships it meant that it was invincible outside of subspace.We don't know if beams can pierce them. that is just a guess more or less. We also don't know for sure if the shielding is difficult to maintain or expensive. They wouldn't give up on a design that acomplished so much and got destroyed in a last ditch effort most likely.
In fs2 those shields would still be handy for big capships. Because even though beams can pierce them, it still makes a capital ship a lore more resistant to weapons fire in general. All lasers and plasma throwers are rendered moot against the lucifers shielding system, idk about fs2's more powerful bombs than in fs1, but you get the idea.
The lucifers shielding system definitely is what fits the mold for expensive, complicated, and difficult to maintain though since shielding a capital ship of that size is not easy and also not really supposed to happen.
One Lucifer makes more sense than Mothballing them, why?Yes you're right, if there is more than one lucifer, and one of them got destroyed, it would in fact be retarded to mothball the rest. In other words...
Lucifers would be redirected to areas where they're not likely to be destroyed, simple as.
Mothballing them is just retarded as a theory.
Apparently NGTM-1R does think that there was more than lucifer and that the rest of them got mothballed when just one of these highly effective ships got destroyed :yes:...I was being sarcastic here. Below is the theory androgeus mentioned with an explanation of why it's bad.
Trashman, the whole mothballing/retire thing 100% revolves around the fact that we don't know if there is more than one. It's likely there is only one since the ancients were talking about it...the games allusion from the ancient monologues to what you see in the actual missions fitting what the ancients described as being the lucifer.Others say that there are other Lucifer-class destroyers out there, but were withdrawn from the Shivan fleet and mothballed after the destruction of this one.This fan theory made me laugh (and hurt my brain). And i know it's not your theory androgeus, you were just mentioning some fan theories.
Shivan1: Oh we made thousands of these super destroyers and they're really great at what they do!
Shivan2: But one of them got destroyed.
Shivan1: You're right. We ****ed up. Time to pull them off the front lines for good.
Seriously, one of them barely gets destroyed in a co-species last ditch effort to save earth. And the shivans conclusion is that since one of the lucifer class ships gets destroyed, that they should mothball every single one of these highly effective ships. Through this logic in fs2, we shouldn't have seen 80 extra sathani after the first one barely got destroyed in a co-species effort. After the first sathanus got destroyed, the shivans should have been pulling all of these ships off the front lines and mothball every singe one of these highly effective ships. What a stupid theory :lol:
But, you're right, AAA beams don't go through shields at all :lol::wtf:
I really don't see any compelling evidence that the Lucifers were mothballed/retired.
Yeah, but I think it is an obvious and well-known fact on these forums that all beams pierce shields. Unless of course you are using Fury's BP 3.6.12 Re-balance which removes the shield piercing but doubles the damage.Do we know 100% that the Lucifer's shield worked the exact same way? I did know that beams pierced shields, but since the Lucifer's were different, there is a possibility that it may not work the same way. In addition to that, what do we know about shivan engineering besides that it's apparently better than ours? For all we know the shields weren't hard for them to maintain. This is all speculation.
... provided the Shivans think like humans, which is not indicated anywhere.
The GTVA was confident that the Colossus would protect the GTVA from all threats, so we can't go off their confidence in their ability. To be honest, I will not make assumptions no matter how logical on if beams would have pierced the Lucifer's shields. I just stated a different way of looking at it, and unless :v: says anything about it, we can't say anything in full confidence. I do believe, for the most part, that any ship with beams can take down the Lucifer. I just don't say that as a undisputed fact.
We also know that the GTVA was confident that the Colossus could destroy the Lucifer, and on a narrative level I simply don't think the Colossus would have been a huge red herring.
Sure they use it. However, they may not draw the same conclusions you do based on the same data.
Also, since we have no clue at all about the Shivan economy, it's pretty futile to make guesses towards the constraints they are operating under.
If the basic conclusion is that 16 fightercraft can take down a destroyer defended by 40, without doing much more than 20% damage to the destroyer...what conclusion are you assuming they'll draw?
Economic restraints are unnecessary to the argument. This is terms of raw efficency. Admittedly, there's good evidence the Shivans aren't interested in detail efficency (their fighter guns), but a destroyer is several rungs up the ladder of noticeablity.
That's all fine and dandy, but it does nothing to change the fact that the only evidence we have points towards beams piercing the Lucifer's shields, and not away from said fact.I wasn't trying to change that fact. Just saying that I'm not willing to stand behind any theory. But at the same time, I did acknowledge in my post that it's more likely that they could.
No assumptions involved.
Sure they use it. However, they may not draw the same conclusions you do based on the same data.
If the basic conclusion is that 16 fightercraft can take down a destroyer defended by 40, without doing much more than 20% damage to the destroyer...what conclusion are you assuming they'll draw?
Again we're back to Heinlein. "Any race that can build spacecraft is not stupid."
The most parsimonious explanation is probably that Lucifers just aren't deployed against species with beam weapons, since beams pierce shields (and yes, they do, in 100% of canonical beam-shield interactions) and the Lucifer is severely undergunned without its invincibility.Not really since it is untouchable by everything else, including bombers. If the Lucifer is vulnerable, then all Shivan ships without shields that are smaller are much worse off since all weapons can harm them and not only beams.
Could you please point me to the part of canon that shows that the Shivans know what destroyed the Lucifer, or that they even know it was destroyed at all?
Depends on what the Shivan motivations are. If the Lucy is basically some sort of intelligence test (there was a B5 ep that dealt with a similar concept), designed to find out if the target is advanced enough to destroy her, or just advanced enough to be too dangerous to be allowed to continue living. Under that concept, they may say that it was a successful test.
Oh, yes. But does that mean it's important to the Shivans? Bottom line, from my POV, is that we have no clue at all at what scale the Shivans operate, or think on. You are assuming that a Lucifer would mean the same thing to them as an Orion would mean to the GTA. This is basically unknowable.
@Nightmare: by your logic, they would have mothballed all Shivan ship classes that the Alliance has destroyed at least once, but yet we keep seeing weak ships like the Cain class in battle, and they have not been mothballed. So either there really was only one in existance, or the others simply didn't show up in FS2 since they wouldn't want to risk losing more of those special ships and by a supernova, and only necessary ships were put at risk. The Shivans only intended to destroy the star and not go on a full scale invasion. Why put the more special Lucifer class ships in the line of a supernova when they aren't needed to destroy the star and you can use the less special and no doubt more common ships, like the Ravanas and smaller vessels, which are sufficient, as distractions?
I really don't see any compelling evidence that the Lucifers were mothballed/retired.
I don't see any compelling evidence they weren't. I mean, really people. I can offer one solid fact (we don't see any) and a good, well-thought-out conjecture (cost-based failure) for the retirement, and nobody's tried to even remotely construct an argument for the other posistion. Possibly because without encountering any other Lucifers there's not a starting point, but still. :P
If the basic conclusion is that 16 fightercraft can take down a destroyer defended by 40, without doing much more than 20% damage to the destroyer...what conclusion are you assuming they'll draw?
Could you please point me to the part of canon that shows that the Shivans know what destroyed the Lucifer, or that they even know it was destroyed at all?
Silent Threat.
The GTVA is aware of the success of the mission to destroy the Lucifer. (They even reuse the FS1 end cutscene to show this, and you could still count 16 surviving GTA and PVN fighters in it.) There are significant Shivan forces left after the destruction of the Lucifer who are also probably aware of the battle and its outcome...or they're really stupid.
No such assumption is required; efficency is a basic goal of all living things. This is basically arguing that sentient species will knowingly sustain a bad ship/weapon/product in service when there is an alternative. I tend towards the assumption that the Shivans probably had nigh-unlimited resources too, but that's not terribly germane.
Not seeing one isn't proof of anything. There could be a million reasons why we don't see one. Maybe there wasn't one in the vicinity? Maybe they decided not to use it against us (why bother when they have 80 sathanases)?
Did you destroy the Eva with only a bunch of fightercraft? And the Ravana? And Liliths..and Cains?
Shivans lost a lot of ships to surgical strikes.
There is no logical reason to retire the Lucifer that I see. And apparently cost/benefit doesn't come into the shivan equation. They have 80 sathanases..(sathanii?). Obviously, building giant ships is not a problem for them.
Wasn't that force eventually destroyed/mopped up?
The shivans in FS2 came from the portal beyond GD. Did they have any contact with the local shivies?
Really, there is no reason to believe that the shivans know the Lucifer was destroyed.
*cough* Bradley*cough*
Your nemesis has arrived... and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party.
Nice catch Max. It says:Could possibly refer to the original Rakshasa and Maras destroyed by the Carthage and Dahshor, as suggested on the FSWiki (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_Trivia#Canon_inconsistencies:_Retail_FS2_box).Quote from: FS2 BoxYour nemesis has arrived... and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party.
because it came from the marketing department.
One hard fact to me, and a well-founded conjecture on the possiblity that the Lucifer has demonstrated fatal design flaws.
No hard facts to you, and no conjecture.
Is this supposed to convince?
16 fightercraft attacked the Eva. She put up 20 fighters in her own defense. Everybody's going to have bad days; a numerical difference of only 20% losing can be put down to a lot of lesser causes that do not indicate general failure. A numerical difference of better than 100% losing can only be ascribed to massive flaws in design, deployment, or both. Now I didn't see anything wrong with the way the Shivans responded to the attack on the Lucifer. They deployed their fighters in a way that made sense to try and defend the ship. (Or are you going to say otherwise?) But the fighters weren't up to it and the Lucifer wasn't up to defending itself, and this was completely a result of the way the ship was designed.
So no. This argument is full of it.
Stating that you can't see a logical reason isn't very impressive anymore Trash, considering your documented immunity to logic.
The part about them building giant ships being not a problem? Yeah that's actually an argument for me since it means replacing the Lucifer's not going to be a problem at all.
I'm sure that would make sense in context.
Oh wait.
There's no context. And considering the source...
Yes i was being sarcastic. I'll make a note to use the better emoticon next time.But, you're right, AAA beams don't go through shields at all :lol::wtf:
ALL beams pierce shields by default, unless you flag them not to.
For all we know the shields weren't hard for them to maintain. This is all speculation.I still think the shields on the lucifer were hard to maintain. TV forces couldn't shield anything bigger than a fighter. The fact that the shivans were able to doesn't mean that it was an elegance of design or efficiency. Given they have 5 reactors, while they got it done, that the whole system was an energy sucker requiring the extra batteries (and even more of an energy sucker to withstand all tv weapons of the time). And most likely separate shield generators for different quadrants all over the ship for full shielding (but the multiple shield generators is me speculating).
Is this supposed to convince me?
You have stated one fact that is not indicative of ANYTHING. No direct corellation to your conclusion. Let me repeat that - not seeing a Lucifer proves NOTHING. Zilch. Nada. Zero.
And a fatal design flaw? Any sufficiently big explosion in subspace can apparently destabilize the node. That would mean each and every destroyer has a "fatal design flaw". What you describe isn't really a fatal design flaw.
It's like saying boats sinking if shot is a design flaw.
Now you're pulling things out of your a**. The Lucifer will launch X fighters and the EVA will launch X fighters. the number is dependant on how long you take to destroy them and the destroyer.
EVA can very well launch just as many fighters (if not more) than the Lucifer in the mission. Theoreticly, the Lucifer can carry more, but that's irrelevant ATM.
Was EVA up to defending itself? Practicely every ship in FS1 era has pitiful AF defenses. They rely on fighters to protect them.
And the GTVA happens to have damn good pilots.
At least I know what logic is, in order to be immune to it. You...you just have vacuum between those tumors you call ears. And a destinct lack of forum etiquette, sine you stoop down to personal insults.
But mind you, I can and will respond in kind.
Earlier you were going about the cost of building a Lucifer, remember? And how since it costs much and has a flaw, it doesn't pay for the shivies to build more. And now you make a 180. Sorry, you fail again. Again, having more craft of type X doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna see all of them.
Never heard of a Bradly APC?
History is full of militaries supporting faulty hardware.
You're so full of crap, it cost more than several destroyers, a home planet, two space stations, and access to a home system to build did it?
I don't care about raw cost. I care about comparative cost; that it took less to destroy the Lucifer, far less, then it did to build it.
I know better than to try to convince you by now, Trash.
It's circumstantial, true, but it's still one more fact than you've got in your corner. It proves scarcity. But then I already said that, and you didn't read it the first time.
I care about the fact the Lucifer deployed 40-odd fighters in its defense, against sixteen, and lost.
I care about the fact you can destroy a Lucifer only inflicting 20% hull damage.
No, actually I'm going by having checked the missions. The horrible truth is I'm being generous to you. The Lucifer puts twenty in space to oppose you before you can ever reach it with Ursas. It could easily kick out more than forty if you let it.
You're also ignoring the fact the Eva, being significantly easier to just run up and blow the **** out of, rarely ever reaches twenty. Again, I'm being generous.
And once more, you can't dispute my point about the Lucifer's design being weak and flawed because it's possible to destroy it while inflicting very little actual damage.
If you check the missions, you'd see that the average GTA/PVN pilot is actually not as good as his Shivan opposite number. They're one AI class lower, sometimes more. Keep demonstrating your ignorance, man.
That's not an insult, actually. It's insulting, I admit, and you have my apologies for what they're worth. But you demonstrably got kicked out of GD because you were unable and/or unwilling to conduct a logical discourse. I wanted to warn the people who don't frequent GD what they're seeing here. I'm certainly not doing it for your benefit.
Says the man who resorts to personal attacks first usually.
I don't care about raw cost. I care about comparative cost; that it took less to destroy the Lucifer, far less, then it did to build it.
The Brad? It's a good vehicle. Better than the LAV or Stryker in a lot of ways. Impervious to common RPGs for a start, also has integrated anti-tank capablity. If you want a mere people-bus, sure, a Stryker or some model of BTR is probably better, but if you're supposed fight as well, then...well maybe you'd want a BMP-3, but a Brad ain't a bad option.
But I have been male for a good while now.
I'm a guy, damn it! Rian shared my account with me back before she got her own, which probably produced this whole misunderstanding. But I have been male for a good while now.
I don't care about raw cost. I care about comparative cost; that it took less to destroy the Lucifer, far less, then it did to build it.You're so full of crap, it cost more than several destroyers, a home planet, two space stations, and access to a home system to build did it?
I make roflz now.
No such assumption is required; efficency is a basic goal of all living things. This is basically arguing that sentient species will knowingly sustain a bad ship/weapon/product in service when there is an alternative. I tend towards the assumption that the Shivans probably had nigh-unlimited resources too, but that's not terribly germane.
The logical fallacy of research/build time being required to find counters to new weaponry not being included make your brain burn :PI don't care about raw cost. I care about comparative cost; that it took less to destroy the Lucifer, far less, then it did to build it.You're so full of crap, it cost more than several destroyers, a home planet, two space stations, and access to a home system to build did it?
Cost to destroy the Lucifer != cost to repair damage caused by / value of stuff destroyed by the Lucifer inflicted before she was destroyed.
Cost to destroy the Lucifer = some damage to the Bastion as it tried to catch up with her, some fighters and bombers (depending how skillful the player is), and some Harbingers.I make roflz now.
I say "Derp" now.
You're so full of crap, it cost more than several destroyers, a home planet, two space stations, and access to a home system to build did it?
I make roflz now.
So you finally realized your arguments are crap. Good for you,
No, it doesn't prove scarcity.
So? The GTVA deployed the best craft and pilots it had.
Don' you, as alpha 1, kill of dozens of fighter per mission? 16 vs. 40 are not bad odds for terrans, given how many shivan fighters die.
And yea...and ships with a reactor subsystem can be destroyed (if so scripted). Especially if you use weapons design specificy to destroy subsystems and not the hull.
*YAWN*
Oh, but I can dispute your point.
No design is perfect. Every ship will have it's weak spots. Weapon magazines, reactors, engines, places where the armor is thinner, etc... You cannot make a ship wihtout weakness. It is realisticly impossible. You cna only make those weaknesses more difficult to exploit.
The Lucifer did a super job of hiding it's weaknesses.
There is only ONE way to exploit that weakness, and it requires making a surgical strike in a very limited time window, and the knowledge to track ships into subspace AND the knowledge of the weakness in the first place.
FRED settings don't interest me.
And yea...and ships with a reactor subsystem can be destroyed (if so scripted). Especially if you use weapons design specificy to destroy subsystems and not the hull.
If you follow FRED, the Lucifer really is invulnerable, because it has the invulnerable flag.
I actually had a nice and production char with GB over PM's after I was kicked. You can ask her yourself - she will confirm it was an misunderstanding and an overreaction from a mods part.
Not that I don't see what you're trying to do here, mind you.
Trying to tear down my argument by attacking my character, trying to paint me as unreasonable, under the veil of "informing others".
Very cheap tactic, very transparent. Unfortunately, this isn't a popularity contest.
HA! this is rich.
I dare you to actually find a instance where I resorted to insults first.
If you manage to even find one, I will be very much impressed.
Do you even know how long it was in development and how terrible it was untill they fixed it?
NGTM-1R, if you can find a single scenario outside the incredibly brief window that relies more on luck to destroy the Lucifer shown in canon, using the means available at the time, to destroy the Lucifer, you might have a case for design flaw (maybe).
As it so happens, the criteria for destroying the Lucifer are so incredibly detailed as to be nearly impossible to replicate without the advance knowledge the GTA/PVE discover during the campaign. By the logic you are attempting to use, any ship you could destroy by rubber banding the fire button has a massive design flaw, and by all rights, should have been retired due to the comparative cost-ineffectiveness. However, we still see Demons in the FS2 campaign.
We do not have a small time window; we have instant subspace travel.
The fighters are so inadequate only in the one place where they'd be called upon to defend a Lucifer.
This is either ignoring or misunderstanding the issue. There is a small timeframe with which to engage[/u] the Lucifer. IIRC, the final mission has something like a 15 minute time limit on it. I know I lost more than once becase it reached the end of the subspace tunnel before I blew the last reactor.
When the verdict on a design flaw is a short falling in another section of the fleet, the point becomes rather moot.
The Lucifer was a highly effective vessel against its intended targets of the GTA and PVN, far more effective than the first Sathanas was against the GTVA. The Terrans and Vasudans were only able to destroy the Lucifer through sheer luck. If they hadn't found the Ancient data that allowed them to track it through subspace, the Lucifer would have been able to eliminate all of Terran-Vasudan space. I can understand why the GTVA wouldn't face another Lucifer because it would be very cost-inefficient for the Shivans because the GTVA has beam cannons which can ignore its shields. However, against a foe that has no subspace tracking capability and no beam cannons, the Lucifer-class of superdestroyers would be an extremely devastating weapon simply because no weapon that foe has can hurt it.