Author Topic: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?  (Read 31463 times)

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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
If we sum up the common theories, we have four main points :

1) Either the Lucifer's Shivans are different from the Sathanis' ones (what exactly this difference is is anyone guess), and so they don't share the exact same technology (and maybe don't have the same goals, but that's another problem).

2) Or the Lucifer was a very costly prototype, and its destruction made the Shivans abandon the project (that's probably the same reason why we didn't built another Hades after the GTI rebellion).

3) Or the Lucifer wasn't the only of its kind, but after the destruction of FS1's Lucifer, Shivans decommissioned the other Lucifers (high maintenance cost ? obsolete technology ?)

4) Or Shivans still use Lucifers, but none was encountered during the Capella incident.

Feel free to correct me :)
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Offline Bobboau

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
the best explanation I've seen is it was a purpose built ship designed to destroy lesser civilisations, too expensive to use in general situations, but highly economical if you are dealing with a race that can't scratch shields. they probly have a billion of them somewhere, just didn't deploy them in FS2.
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Offline High Max

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
1) Either the Lucifer's Shivans are different from the Sathanis' ones (what exactly this difference is is anyone guess), and so they don't share the exact same technology (and maybe don't have the same goals, but that's another problem).

I doubt that. Shivans are Shivans. It was a scouting force. Sounds like over analyzing since FS never hinted at them being separate branches of Shivans. I also recall the FS2 game box saying that it was a scouting force in the Great War.

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2) Or the Lucifer was a very costly prototype, and its destruction made the Shivans abandon the project (that's probably the same reason why we didn't built another Hades after the GTI rebellion).

Cost, economy, money, is all a human concept because humans don't think like a hive. Money is only there in society to create a chain reaction of cooperation and only represents a resource or service and also represents the cooperation of society and getting something in return for providing work for society. The Shivans don't care about doing something for something in return like humans do, and cooperation isn't an issue since it is all for the good of the race and they are a hive making rebellion also impossible among themselves, which would be the main reasons why they are superior, I guess. Plus, they seem to have no problem with resources in which money would represent and therefore have value. Meanwhile, you have Terrans destroying each others' resources because of rebellion which is their weakness and makes them overall weaker because of their individual train of thought.

If the Shivans did have a lack of resources, they would get it from planets, but they don't care about planets. That indicates no shortage with resources.

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3) Or the Lucifer wasn't the only of its kind, but after the destruction of FS1's Lucifer, Shivans decommissioned the other Lucifers (high maintenance cost ? obsolete technology ?)

It was probably the only one of its kind, but maybe not. I do highly doubt that any of the Shivan ship classes are new though. They've been around for many thousands of years, no doubt in my mind. The ancients also said that the destroyers darkened their skies like a plague even way back then, which tells me they must have encountered more than just the Lucifer fleet, maybe sathani too. The scouting force itself may be obsolete though compared to some of the other ships in FS2 since it lacks a lot of weaponry, but that was probably only for balancing purposes. They just brought in different ships in FS2, like the superior Nahema because they are taking the GTVA seriously, not new designs, since a race that old should have all that stuff already and still have better ships that weren't in FS2 waiting somewhere. The ship classes in FS2 could be newer, but all of them must be 1000's of years old, no doubt.

Why would one think that any ship that the Shivans have is anything new when they have been a space faring race for who knows how long? Surely their newer ships would be even better than what we encountered and they may have already reached the technological limit; we just haven't seen their even newer ships and their true power. They probably have Dyson spheres too in their territory.

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4) Or Shivans still use Lucifers, but none was encountered during the Capella incident.

Maybe, but I feel that the Lucifer was only there to lead the scouting force. Perhaps only one Lucifer in existance, and if others do exist, they lead other scouting forces like the one in FS1. But there is no need for more than one scouting force since Shivans probably go 1000's of years before having to eliminate another species. Seems that they are the only ones left in that part of the galaxy besides Terrans and Vasudans. Who knows how many races they killed and it would explain why the galaxy seems to only have them as a space faring race (or super race force of nature) and the Terrans/Vasudans being the only other space faring races in this galaxy.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 04:00:28 am by High Max »
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
You are declaring a lot of things without proofs here. We know virtually nothing about the Shivans. The fact that they are different, aliens, whatever, doesn't implies they work as a hive, nor that they don't have an economy like we do, nor the exact contrary of everything I'm saying. We know, nothing, period. All I said is purely assumption, and a sum up of theories that have been running around here and elsewhere for the last decade.

So, please, stop saying that "Shivans are this way" or "FS never hinted that" or "they must be", because this is assumption and we don't know what the truth is. English "I think" and "in my opinion" turn of phrases are made for this. Nothing prevents you to have your own theory, actually I'm quite interested in any theory I can find, but please don't act like if it was the actual truth.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 
Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
4) Or Shivans still use Lucifers, but none was encountered during the Capella incident.
Feel free to correct me :)
the best explanation I've seen is it was a purpose built ship designed to destroy lesser civilisations, too expensive to use in general situations, but highly economical if you are dealing with a race that can't scratch shields. they probly have a billion of them somewhere, just didn't deploy them in FS2.
The way I see it- there's just as many Lucifers as Saths, only the Shivan strategery is based on using Lucifers against civilisations that can't punch through it's shields (what good would it be if an Aeolus took it's time and blew up the reactors destroying the whole ship just a few minutes after it reached GTVA space?); Big 'S's against civilisations that can destroy a Lucifer with ease, and bigger ships against civilisations which can stop a fleet of Saths.
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Offline Raptoer

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
But the only Lucifer humans ever encountered got destroyed, so it means they never had the chance to study the shields thoroughly enough, and they still don't have weapons powerful enough to penetrate them and the only way to destroy a Lucifer is inside subspace.So why was that Lucifer in "Blue Planet" vulnerable for attacks?

 

Offline The E

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
Because in the BP verse, the assumption that Beams penetrate capital ship shields holds true. Also, remember that for the mission in which the Lucifer is destroyed you are flying a Vishnan vessel. The Vishnans do know all about the Shivans.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
and they still don't have weapons powerful enough to penetrate them and the only way to destroy a Lucifer is inside subspace.
Damnit. Will people STOP to claim things like this when it is only assumptions ? If you have anything proving it, tell us, and if not, say that it's what you think and not that it's the truth !

Sorry for the rant. That's just exasperating the hell out of me.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
But the only Lucifer humans ever encountered got destroyed, so it means they never had the chance to study the shields thoroughly enough, and they still don't have weapons powerful enough to penetrate them and the only way to destroy a Lucifer is inside subspace.So why was that Lucifer in "Blue Planet" vulnerable for attacks?

For God's sake, read posts in your own thread! Beams penetrate shields.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
For God's sake, read posts in your own thread! Beams penetrate shields.
To be fair there's nothing in canon that actually says for sure that beams penetrate the Lucifer's shields. Only conjecture.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
True, but we know that they are a) shields and that b) beams go through them. We have no evidence that they're special.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
We also have no evidence to the contrary. See "we don't know anything about the Shivans" above.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
I'm firmly of the opinion that all in-universe evidence suggests the GTVA was confident (and with good reason) that it could destroy Lucifers in realspace using the Colossus.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
Yep, and although I happen to agree, we just don't know, as the Lucy doesn't make an appearance in canon FS2.
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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
Impervious -> Not merely resistant.

Hard to tell, I'm definitely not convinced the Lucifer would go down to the Colli, considering the amount of tactical strategic retardedness command displays.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
To elaborate on QuantumDelta's point, a certain FS1 command briefing said that the Lucifer's shields were "impervious, not merely resistant" to GTA weapons.

Whether this extends to beam cannons is up to debate.


Personally I think beams pierce shields.

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
We have no evidence that they're special.

You're kidding, right?


My assumption (I recall posting it a long time ago) is this:
1) Let's say that a Sath requires more resources than a Lucy does. I think that this is a fairly logical assumption.
2) As such, imagine that the Shivans could have like 300 Lucys instead of the 80 Saths.
3) If a Lucy's shields can be bypassed by beams, it is a really easy target.
<-> 4) If a Lucy's shields are totally impenetrable, then what is the point of not using them?
-> I sadly have to assume that a Lucy's shields can be penetrated by beams :(
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
So...you're agreeing with me?

 

Offline Lucika

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
So...you're agreeing with me?

Partially.
While I believe that the shields are, in fact, penetrable by beams, we have canon evidence that the Lucy's shields are differ from the normal ones.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Shivan Super-Ships Shields?
We do not, however, have canon evidence that beams so not pierce the Lucifer's shields.