Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Bob-san on January 31, 2010, 04:56:28 pm
-
Well we all know about canon FS1 and FS2. Here's a short theory of "what happens and why?"
So in FS1, we find the Lucifer. The Lucifer was a major force to be reckoned with because it was so well defended. Outside of bombarding other capital ships and planetary surface settlements, the Lucifer could be called a well-defended joke. Here's a thought. What if the Lucifer was part of a mining fleet? Ships like a Demon and a Sathanas are unnaturally "fat"; what if a Lucifer's purpose was to prep systems for mining? For example, the Lucifer samples a star system and makes a decision; should we or should we not set this system up for (gas?) mining? They pulverize all opposition and call in the Sathanas fleet to force the main star to go supernova prematurely, releasing large amounts of gas and shattering the various planets in that system. By use of the four main beams, they destroy and then mine the planets, collecting large chunks and opening the juggernaught for transport. They then jump out and the material is either processed in the Sathanas (perhaps spawning into other Shivan /things/)? That'd keep the Shivans strong while making them wanderers of sort. If the Knossos took months or years to seal a jump node to the point that not even Shivans can jump directly out (and we mistook the "inactive" Knossos for an active seal, finally reaching peak strength millennia later), then perhaps the Sathanas fleet has been "waiting" and harvesting other systems they managed to reach--thus the partially destroyed planet deep in Shivan territory and the nebula past Gamma Drax.
-
There's a partially destroyed planet deep in Shivan territory?
Nothing in FS canon indicates the Shivans are interested in planets except as places to exterminate. Were the Lucifer a mining vessel, why would it go for the homeworlds?
-
better question, how did the lucifer even know which planets were the homeworlds? that wasn't ever even touched in cannon. we went from "we have no reason to believe the shivans know the location of our home system" to "this is not the direct route to sol, which should divert the shivans from our true intent" to "the shivans have finally determined the location of sol".
:wtf:
-
one of the command briefings stated that the shivans are more interested in controlling individual jump nodes and not in planets and their resources
-
If memory serves, in part of the GTVI Branch Pt2, there's a lava planet in the background. Now what is interesting is perspective; we don't know what's going through the Shivan's heads. They attacked us and attacked valuable resources to us. That, combined with the Sathanas animation (with the "arms" bending) makes it seem like the ship's getting ready to do more than just fire a few beams. Now we presume that they have no interest in /our/ resources but let's face it; 80+ Sathanas juggernauts had to come from /somewhere/, in addition to the fighters and bombers they throw away like garbage. Add to that the fact that their small ships all use the same primary weapons (various strengths, of course) and, to me, it says that they have the ability to either produce their own ships rapidly OR they can afford to throw away all the ships that they do. Plus, we have difficulty targeting precisely where various Shivan ships are at any given time. Part of that is probably military intelligence (it's not like there are any known sympathetic Shivans) but part of that may be that, the majority of the time, they're hiding away somewhere hostile, and remote.
-
If they want resources only they have no reason to come to inhabited space.
It's basically 100% confirmed canonically that the Shivans are xenocidal (re: techroom entry.) Could be an in-universe assumption, but...
Gonna need a screenshot on the alleged lava planet. I don't remember any such thing.
-
I don't recall any lava planet in the retail planet textures.
-
If they want resources only they have no reason to come to inhabited space.
It's basically 100% confirmed canonically that the Shivans are xenocidal (re: techroom entry.) Could be an in-universe assumption, but...
Gonna need a screenshot on the alleged lava planet. I don't remember any such thing.
You may be right actually; I haven't installed FSO or played it in months. I do remember there being "lava" planets somewhere--maybe Gamma Drax (which is awful close to "Shivan territory" and the system barren).
And that's my thought; the Shivans are after /something/ and I don't think pure xenocide is it. The tech difference and similarities between the two or three fleets could be explained by having different purposes. Perhaps the Lucifer was JUST to destroy the Ancients or some other race, but then the question would become "how did they get beams?" We equipped them and they adapted. They pummeled Vasuda Prime and seemingly want to try to pummel Earth. Still, on a whole, the GTVA is ineffective against Shivans first by technology and then by numbers. Ships like a Moloch, a Demon, or a Sathanas are enormous for their seeming purpose, especially when Shivan cruisers are so small. Add to that how varied the Shivan destroyers are; neither Ravana nor Lucifer had as much volume as a Demon. Similarly, the Sathanas is huge compared to the GTVA Watergun. It's fairly obvious that either the GTVA is a small theater of war for the Shivans (one of many?) or that the Shivans are moving huge populations and destroying stars, for fun and sport, to do so. There are very few things a Sathanas would be good for. Unless it's a hollow hull with a big bloody reactor to power the beams, then there'd be a LOT of extra space that could be used for storage or manufacturing.
-
Maybe he is referring to the scratched up planet beyond Knossos 2 that is grey and dead, but I think I saw that same planet texture in GTVA space.
Also, a more fitting place for this, though I said this in the other thread:
As for my assumptions in my earlier post: I go by the most likely assumption based on the story line and tech description of the Shivans and what I think makes sense. If it wasn't true, then why would Volition say 'hive' in the tech database? Just to make you wonder or just for kicks? Did it say 'could be' and then list other possibilities? The tech database said 'most likely' constructed by another entity too, and I like that idea, since it said 'most likely'. I don't think V would say it unless it had meaning to the story if it is being said in the tech database.
If they are from subspace and constructed by another entity in real space, maybe this other entity put subspace beings in machine bodies and this particular subspace (beings) are conscious, like spirits, or in scientific terms that seem close to the same thing, energy beings that can control bodies. So maybe we are fighting subspace itself but in the form of physical Shivans, 'shells' for these subspace beings that let them interact in real space in order to protect subspace from real space beings.
To add: Maybe one day a species entered subspace and encountered the pure subspace energy beings known as Shivans and somehow communicated with this species and said "if you build us some bodies and ships so we can enter the physical realm and can defend our subspace realm, we will give you 'whatever''. They did that and then the Shivans had some bodies and ships in order to build even more bodies and ships for themselves, but they altered the original designs of their bodies and built their own ship designs after that.
-
It's basically 100% confirmed canonically that the Shivans are xenocidal (re: techroom entry.) Could be an in-universe assumption, but...
That the Shivans we ran into prior to FS2 appeared to be xenocidal.
We could say that Vasudans are hom(...er, whatever Latin genus Vasudans are)icidal, suicidal, and/or xenocidal, if they're judged based on the Hammer of Light.
Even if you don't buy the 'Gamma Draconis Knossos shutdown' isolation theory, it's always possible the Shivans aren't as unified as we think they are. They could have clans or factions(admittedly huge, if all 80+ Sathanes were all supposed to belong to the same group), each with their own versions of 'religion' or 'philosophy'.
-
It doesn't make sense for Shivans to have philosophy or religion. They do not think like humans. Just like Shivans don't get bored. Maybe the higher ups do to a certain extent though. It is stated that they think like a hive. The rest seem to be under the control of something higher up in the chain. Also, they are insectoid and we know that certain species of insects are hives. Look at the way the Shivans reacted after the destruction of the Lucifer according to canon.
-
High Max is right, we can't expect them to think like us. They are xenos, and we would do well not to believe that we are alike. They might have a religion or they might not. But as they are now, the Shivans appear only as the Great
Devourer Destroyer, and there is little else to believe that they're not destroying the GTVA for lulz. The Ancient monologue hints that it was their arrogance in bringing wars to other systems that brought down the Shivans on them. They could be attack the Imperium GTVA for the same reasons, or for not.
-
Planet textures are, admittedly, generic. Adding in the right planet (as well as right size) can 'make or break' the atmosphere of a mission.
I don't know how much of the techroom descriptions we can really rely upon. I've always thought that the entire game & program are "running" while you're in the Ready Room, learning about your mission and (later) choosing your ship and weaponry. The mission ends and you return to your bunk or a bar or something, and life goes on. That means I include the Database section to be more "on duty" crap, including the information. If the Shivans didn't care about "us", why would they evac Bosch instead of just destroying his ship? If they were xenocidal, was it because they KNOW others are out there yet NONE of them ever even tried to communicate? We could be an "odd" race to them that they ran into twice. We could also be a statistical minority, along lists of races that survived our first War against them. There's just not enough double-checked information to call the Database correct. In the ships.tbl, the Shivan Comm Node was given a few words to describe what the designer or the person making that table thought about the ship and its purpose. The mission designer could have ask "what Shivan stuff have we NOT used yet?" and found that "comm node", and decided to use it because it looks cool and gives the player a diversion while in that mission.
As for the "Lucifier as center of a small hive" thing; who says they're a hive? As a real life example, Japanese worker's unions work to have the workers improve the company; work better with Management and you'll all be better off. Perhaps the Shivans just have blind faith in their leadership, and when said leadership is knocked out (ie: Lucifer destroyed), they just follow whatever order they last received OR take the most aggressive, most damaging path individually possible. It's like military with inexperienced direct leadership; a wide organization losing its central leadership would sort of spawn into dozens of divisions who can't agree on anything.
I'm not saying (or at least meaning) that the Shivans look, act, or speak like humans, just in costume (ehem, Star Trek). I'm imagining a few goals or objectives that any species might be interested in. One thing that everyone and everything seems to need is resources; energy or matter. Subspace, for us, is a long blue-white tunnel that takes a lot shorter a time to traverse than it could to slowboat it. Maybe the Shivans could manipulate subspace to manipulate time? On the other hand, they could have plenty of resources and ours don't matter, at all, to them. The fact that we can sort of "copy" Shivan tech says that's not the case either; we figure out what they're using and we appear to have enough stuff to make a copy.
-
It is stated that they think like a hive.
...
Look at the way the Shivans reacted after the destruction of the Lucifer according to canon.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tech Database says it's a theory. Furthermore, it says they reacted to the destruction of the Lucifer; it didn't say how, exactly, and the canon Silent Threat campaign is barely coherent enough to gather anything about what happened to the remnants of the Lucifer fleet. Most people seem to believe they became more disorganized(or at least it's common Fanon).
Almost everything in the tech database is or can arguably be considered in-universe conjecture as far as the GTA/GTVA can figure out at the time.
'Philosophy' could be as simple as "we kill everything that might possibly be a threat" vs "we kill only whatever gets in our way", to their version of Nietzsche, Rousseau, or Freud. We just don't know.
-
The fact that they became disorganized after the destruction of the Lucifer is hard canon.
-
How did the shivies find Vasuda Prime and Earth? Being the homeworlds of both species, they are the most heavily populated, and thus have the most subspace and other activity (like radio emissions).
-
The fact that they became disorganized after the destruction of the Lucifer is hard canon.
Where? The tech database is the only place I remember any mention of it at all(outside ST:R), and I believe it's quoted on the Shivans FSWiki page (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Shivans).
A leading hypothesis is the hive mind theory, arguing that Shivan society is broken down in specialized functions driven by a collective intelligence. The most convincing evidence supporting this theory is the behavior of Shivan forces following the destruction of the SD Lucifer, the turning point of the Great War. Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior.
Nothing explicit; they reacted in some way, though I assume we're just supposed to connect the dots and assume they either went berserker/nuts or suddenly became stupid(since a major part of their theoretical "superbrain" just died), but nothing about canon ST seemed to suggest that.
Running over the Command Briefings for ST (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Silent_Threat_Campaign_Briefings), and the best I recall, the Shivans:
1. Attacked you protecting the Einstein's escape pods(IIRC, including the use of Seraphim bombers, which admittedly is a little weird).
2. "decimated our forces in the Ikeya system. The enemy annihilated our installations and eighty percent of the fleet garrisoned in that sector", and disabled a science cruiser(the Ratna) carrying "cutting-edge weapon protoypes".
3. Still had a formidable "primary Shivan fleet", which the Hellfire cruiser group was attempting to rejoin and reinforce.
4. Sent Seraphim bombers(and I believe some fighters) to attack the already-crippled Talus Mining Facility, which was also distracted by pirate attack.
5. Sent yet more fighters and bombers to attack an ultra-classified convoy(Iota), though to be fair, all they'd really have to do is distract you from shooting the insane homing asteroids.
6. Attacked or were attacked by GTI operations in Ross 128, with a Lilith and fighters, giving a pretty decent showing for itself against two Leviathans and their escort.
7. Still had a Cain to spare to guard a wing of freighters in next to last mission of ST, on a route with "heavy Shivan traffic".
Doesn't sound like they were all that brutallly crushed by the Lucifer's loss, or they adapted quickly enough.
-
Oh ye of little tech room reading!
The victory over the Lucifer had dealt the decisive blow. Incapable of coordinated strikes or strategic planning, the Shivans were outmaneuvered, isolated, and gradually destroyed. However, both species faced the challenge of rebuilding their interstellar societies from the ground up.
-
Theory: Shivan fighters/bombers are drones piloted by robots or expendable, for lack of better term following hive-mind theory, drones which are manufactured inside destroyers and supercapital ships, which could explain the endless hordes of fighters
-
We also know that Shivan fighter/bombers have pilots.
-
We also know that Shivan fighter/bombers have pilots.
Which we don't know whether they're /biological/ drones or not. Programming a grown body and projecting into it seems like a possibility. And I'd personally write off the majority of Silent Threat; that campaign came around as fanon and was more "let's sell some cool missions and raise FRED awareness" type of thing.
-
You cannot write off Silent Threat. It's canon, for better or worse.
We know that the Shivans who pilot Shivan ships are the real Shivans, not drones or a soldier caste. It's been Word of Godded.
-
You cannot write off Silent Threat. It's canon, for better or worse.
We know that the Shivans who pilot Shivan ships are the real Shivans, not drones or a soldier caste. It's been Word of Godded.
Ah, but we know that the Shivans as a species are extremely diverse:
Though Shivans demonstrate considerable diversity as a species, all Shivan technology possesses certain distinctive properties...
How do we know Shivan pilots weren't wimpy, atrophied brains-in-jars? They could be for all we know.
-
On several occasions, Shivan vessels were modified for use by a Terran pilot. Critical information (like that) would presumably have been relayed.
You could maybe work it into your campaign, but personally, my suspension of disbelief would be stretched by the fact that nobody ever mentioned finding little brainsacs in Shivan ships.
-
Oh ye of little tech room reading!
The victory over the Lucifer had dealt the decisive blow. Incapable of coordinated strikes or strategic planning, the Shivans were outmaneuvered, isolated, and gradually destroyed. However, both species faced the challenge of rebuilding their interstellar societies from the ground up.
Ah, Reconstruction article.
To be fair, the combination of the sudden loss of a probably thousands-year old nigh-invincible superweapon that they had probably gotten quite comfortable having around and the loss of experienced command personnel aboard would probably draw a huge 'oh crap, what do we do now' reaction from any civilization.
Being the biggest fish in the pond, by far, for thousands of years(likely more) with no one to give you any real fight would probably result in a certain complacency and strategic/tactical sterility; alway knowing that if things really go south, you can always just point the Lucifer at it and call it a day; knowing you can break the back of any concerted assault against you without breaking a sweat. More importantly, not only that, but knowing that your enemy knows that(thus greatly limiting the scale of their operations against you), and never having lived in an environment where that wasn't the case(assuming Shivans have reasonable life spans, anyway).
I mean, did anyone really feel the Shivans would have gotten anywhere near as far without their superweapon? Before it appeared, we were getting even so bold as to disable an entire live cruiser of theirs and just cart it home for study. Command sent three wings of fighters/bombers to kill the undamaged, "full armed" Eva destroyer(okay, Alpha 1 was there, too, so add the equivalent of another couple of wings).
If the game is supposed to be any indication, the combined Terran and Vasudan fleets, after acquiring the Shivans' shield technology, and developing the Tsunami and 'modern' fighters(Hercs, Ulysses) and bombers(to say nothing of the Ursa/Harbinger), would have slowly, but absolutely surely, chewed our way through a Lucifer-less Shivan fleet with all the resources we'd have not lost from being shredded by the Lucifer itself(Tombaugh, probably most of the Vasudan fleet, etc).
(Of course by my thinking, without the Lucifer, they'd have been forced to come up with new technologies and tactics, but that delves even further into the realm of pure conjecture...)
-
On several occasions, Shivan vessels were modified for use by a Terran pilot. Critical information (like that) would presumably have been relayed.
Okay, maybe my "brains-in-jars" comment was a little far-fetched... But there is nothing to indicate that the Shivan pilots were actual individual Shivans in the sense that we may understand the term - We know so very little about Shivan communication that for all we know Shivans may actually be remote-controlled or at least to some degree coordinated by a larger force (the age-old Hive-Mind hypothesis).
The Shivans are Shivans, with individual bodies, I'll give you that. They might not possess any form of individual thought.
<snip>
Consider:
Xenobiologists know very little about Shivan society. A leading hypothesis is the hive mind theory, arguing that Shivan society is broken down in specialized functions driven by a collective intelligence. The most convincing evidence supporting this theory is the behavior of Shivan forces following the destruction of the Lucifer, the turning point of the Great War. Other experts caution against attributing insectoid properties to the Shivans, regardless of their appearance and behavior. Shivan communication seems to occur in the electromagnetic spectrum, though efforts to decode their transmissions have yielded no meaningful results to date.
-
I have no problem with any part of that post.
-
Sounds rather plausible, in fact. Would explain their ability to co-ordinate assaults over large theaters easily.
-
and why shivan carriers are so huge while their cruisers are tiny
-
Do large GTVA warships make GTVA cruisers look tiny too? I think the size of GTVA destroyers compared to its cruisers is about the same difference as Shivan destroyers compared to Shivan cruisers. There are no ships designated as carriers in canon, so I assume you are talking about destroyers or juggernauts and calling them carriers.
-
and why shivan carriers are so huge while their cruisers are tiny
Eh. To be honest, I'm more interested in what's supposed to be INSIDE their massive ships. I guess I can go along and say that I understand Terran & Vasudan designs quite well; I'd at least assume they'd sort of do the "battleship in space" type of thing. But Shivan ships following a similar idea of prefab or interchangable seems a bit... hollow. A lot of it was artistic license I'm sure, but the sort of "round around the middle" is a recurring theme; the Demon, the Azrael, the Rahu, to some extent the Moloch, and most definitely the Sathanas. The ships are simply gigantic and seem to have no use but to rain fighters and bombers (as well as ordinance) upon the GTVA. Either a Sathanas or Ravana is filled with ships & ordinance, or they can build them "on demand". Seeming sleeper fleets (ie: Lucifer) never ran out of ordinance or fighters even after extended conflicts. Assuming they didn't have direct contact with "Shiva", there are only so many ways that a ship could/would be able to function after thousands of years. Perhaps that's an explanation for why the Shivans in FS1 didn't have real beam weaponry; if the fleet were ten thousand years old, even if the hulls survived, the reactors would be low on power. For a threat like the PVN and GTA, and as we didn't /have/ beams, shields were likely the more valuable technology to use, as the Lucifer could withstand ANY attack we could mount while the doomsday weapon got a second use to quickly dispatch our destroyers.
To me, it'd still make sense that major ships need to be specially manufactured. The possibility that a Sathanas could "give birth" to other construction ships would be interesting; mine the resources in and get a nice line of various fighters, bombers, and ordinance.
And again, to me, I think the names are just sort of tacked on. Something like a Levithan would be a beast against civilian ships and old installations. Likewise, Shivan cruisers are tiny compared to their corvettes and destroyers. I'm guessing that ships like a Hecate or a Demon would more be a "carrier".
-
Well, I can strongly stress out a statement: Shivans react extensively to any harm done to them. For example, wasn't it said in the techroom that a Shivan specimen was once captured, and a relatively huge force of Shivans attacked in order to rescue it? Scratch the Shivans, and the Shivans shred you. The Ancients scratched the Shivans, the Shivans shredded the Ancients.
As I've said in FS wiki, the Shivans plotted revenge against the Vasudans just because they've had ties with the Ancients. Shivans are sensitive, little creatures. Annoy them and they go aargh.
-
Hooray for petty shivans!
Sorry, but I like my theories to be a little more menacing.
-
and why shivan carriers are so huge while their cruisers are tiny
Eh. To be honest, I'm more interested in what's supposed to be INSIDE their massive ships. I guess I can go along and say that I understand Terran & Vasudan designs quite well; I'd at least assume they'd sort of do the "battleship in space" type of thing. But Shivan ships following a similar idea of prefab or interchangable seems a bit... hollow. A lot of it was artistic license I'm sure, but the sort of "round around the middle" is a recurring theme; the Demon, the Azrael, the Rahu, to some extent the Moloch, and most definitely the Sathanas. The ships are simply gigantic and seem to have no use but to rain fighters and bombers (as well as ordinance) upon the GTVA. Either a Sathanas or Ravana is filled with ships & ordinance, or they can build them "on demand". Seeming sleeper fleets (ie: Lucifer) never ran out of ordinance or fighters even after extended conflicts. Assuming they didn't have direct contact with "Shiva", there are only so many ways that a ship could/would be able to function after thousands of years. Perhaps that's an explanation for why the Shivans in FS1 didn't have real beam weaponry; if the fleet were ten thousand years old, even if the hulls survived, the reactors would be low on power. For a threat like the PVN and GTA, and as we didn't /have/ beams, shields were likely the more valuable technology to use, as the Lucifer could withstand ANY attack we could mount while the doomsday weapon got a second use to quickly dispatch our destroyers.
To me, it'd still make sense that major ships need to be specially manufactured. The possibility that a Sathanas could "give birth" to other construction ships would be interesting; mine the resources in and get a nice line of various fighters, bombers, and ordinance.
And again, to me, I think the names are just sort of tacked on. Something like a Levithan would be a beast against civilian ships and old installations. Likewise, Shivan cruisers are tiny compared to their corvettes and destroyers. I'm guessing that ships like a Hecate or a Demon would more be a "carrier".
The biggies in FS1 WERE designed to be carriers. I mean, would a handful of Terran Huge Turrets mince an enemy destroyer? They were probably just to fend off bombers. Look at the Lucifer. Slim, unlike the Demon; it was a BATTLESHIP, not a carrier. Carriers look pretty fatter than battleships, even though they lack the armor; just as Demons look fatter than Lucifers.
-
Hooray for petty shivans!
Sorry, but I like my theories to be a little more menacing.
Let's make up a very sinister one and post it here.
-
Slim, unlike the Demon; it was a BATTLESHIP, not a carrier.
But yet the Lucifer apparently carried many more fighters and bombers.
Carriers look pretty fatter than battleships
Who says? Does that always apply in the real world? I just found a contradiction: http://www.acepilots.com/ships/independence.html
-
Oh ye of little tech room reading!
Silent Threat directly contradicts though. :P
-
Slim, unlike the Demon; it was a BATTLESHIP, not a carrier.
But yet the Lucifer apparently carried many more fighters and bombers.
Which is one of the reasons that I'd suspect a Demon to be able to serve double-duty; destroyer plus mobile shipyard.
-
Well, I can strongly stress out a statement: Shivans react extensively to any harm done to them. For example, wasn't it said in the techroom that a Shivan specimen was once captured, and a relatively huge force of Shivans attacked in order to rescue it? Scratch the Shivans, and the Shivans shred you. The Ancients scratched the Shivans, the Shivans shredded the Ancients.
As I've said in FS wiki, the Shivans plotted revenge against the Vasudans just because they've had ties with the Ancients. Shivans are sensitive, little creatures. Annoy them and they go aargh.
And after the SC Taranis was captured and taken to Tombaugh Station, the Lucifer came in and reduced it to its composite atoms. as one of your wingmen states, Tombaugh was a fortress, the shivans are vengeful and do do much half-assedly
-
Of course the Lucifer would have no trouble reducing that fortress to rubble if you think about how low tech the Allied tech was in the Great War era. Even FS2 Allied tech has trouble holding its ground against bombers and the Shivans superior versions of beams, Lasers, and maybe even missiles batteries, but I do think that the only weapon that the Shivan warships have that is equal to the Alliance's and not superior is the flak. All other turret type weapons seem superior. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
-
i'm not saying they would have had trouble leveling an entire base, just that the did it for a little cain-class cruiser. and the shivans dont seem to view the loss of a single interceptor much of a problem, unless they thought, "hey, they stole one of our fighters, let's reduce their homeworlds to glass!" which i think is a smidgen unlikely
-
Maybe they just destroyed the base to prevent the GTA from studying the Cain or using it for themselves, and probably would have destroyed the base anyways even without the capture of that Cain. They no doubt destroyed that Cain while they were at it too.
-
i'm not saying they would have had trouble leveling an entire base, just that the did it for a little cain-class cruiser. and the shivans dont seem to view the loss of a single interceptor much of a problem, unless they thought, "hey, they stole one of our fighters, let's reduce their homeworlds to glass!" which i think is a smidgen unlikely
Maybe they realized that they would take a prized catch like their first captured cruiser to an important place?
-
It was kind of a bold action; if the Shivans suddenly disabled and carted off a GTA cruiser or two to do who-knows-what with the crews(seeing as our technology probably wouldn't interest them), I'm sure we'd promptly move to get them back as well.
Another thought, partly as mentioned elsewhere: According to Silent Threat, "rogue elements within the GTI may have known about the existence of the Shivan threat prior to the attack on Ross 128", and that the GTI may have "been studying Shivan culture and technology at Jotunheim since the massacre at Ross 128". How exactly would they have done the latter without kidnapping and/or stealing small amounts of Shivan personnel and ships(or cargo, maybe debris); grabbing a live cruiser right out from under them was the final straw.
Perhaps the Shivans have/had a touch of classical 'proud warrior race' or 'elder race' arrogance, and having a cruiser full of their warriors disabled and carried off by the puny humans was some sort of grave dishonor or embarrassment that had to be avenged/punished.
-
It was kind of a bold action; if the Shivans suddenly disabled and carted off a GTA cruiser or two to do who-knows-what with the crews(seeing as our technology probably wouldn't interest them), I'm sure we'd promptly move to get them back as well.
Another thought, partly as mentioned elsewhere: According to Silent Threat, "rogue elements within the GTI may have known about the existence of the Shivan threat prior to the attack on Ross 128", and that the GTI may have "been studying Shivan culture and technology at Jotunheim since the massacre at Ross 128". How exactly would they have done the latter without kidnapping and/or stealing small amounts of Shivan personnel and ships(or cargo, maybe debris); grabbing a live cruiser right out from under them was the final straw.
Perhaps the Shivans have/had a touch of classical 'proud warrior race' or 'elder race' arrogance, and having a cruiser full of their warriors disabled and carried off by the puny humans was some sort of grave dishonor or embarrassment that had to be avenged/punished.
An interesting perspective none the less. But I have to agree; carting off a few disabled fighters is nothing compared to carting off an active Cruiser; the Shivans probably knew precisely where that cruiser was and would have blown it as soon as they considered it compromised.
-
that event always gave me more of the impression of an ambush rather than retaliation. not that they necessarily allowed it to be captured on purpose, but once it was, it revealed the location of the ribos base, so they leveled it. no sense in NOT using intel like that.
-
But I think they could have found it anyways. They found the homeworlds and other installations without that tactic. Perhaps they didn't want Shivan tech failing into their hands. The Alliance has a nack for taking Shivan tech and using it against the Shivans. That and finding other tech is what enabled the Alliance win the Great War (adaptability). They learned how to adapt, as the cutscene says.
-
Shivans are very vengeful creatures. That's why they blew up Capella. Thinking that the GTA and PVE whipped their asses they pulled much of their forces to put them back in their place.
-
How do you know they are vengeful and that is their motives? Remember, they don't think like humans and revenge is a human mindset. They blew up Capella out of revenge but spared the other systems? Plus, they attacked the GTA first for no obvious reason. Doesn't sound like vengence to me. But they could have destroyed Capella to prevent the GTVA from entering their space again since it sealed off the nodes.
-
if capella was revenge, it was very poorly conceived. the evacuation was almost complete when the star blew, all they got was a handfull of cruisers and transports.
-
if capella was revenge, it was very poorly conceived. the evacuation was almost complete when the star blew, all they got was a handfull of cruisers and transports.
And they destroyed the fragile economy of the GTVA, almost leading to an uncertain future
Also let's not think about the fate of the thousands that were rescued from Capella, the good old Derelict conflict....refugees seeking for a new home.
Mmm.. no, I change my mind... I would dare to say they did a lot of damage :nod:
-
Compared to what they could have done with all those Saths? No, they did nothing.
They had multiple juggernaughts for every world in the GTVA. One Sath could take out a planet.
-
I'd hesitate to say "nothing". Capella was a highly-populated and (likely) significant industrial power.
-
I'd hesitate to say "nothing". Capella was a highly-populated and (likely) significant industrial power.
If they really wanted to destroy the GTVA they could've done it in days with that fleet.
-
I know. I'm just being snarky about Bat's wording. :p
-
It didn't seem like they were intending to do anything to the GTVA as a whole. They were more concerned about...Capella itself.
-
It didn't seem like they were intending to do anything to the GTVA as a whole. They were more concerned about...Capella itself.
Yeah, I agree
-
Could it be that the Shivans are some sort of hybrid Von Nueman machine? I don't know if this theory has been covered or not but this is my theory:
(before you launch into reading this, I recommend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_machine)
Basically, we know from the tech room and description towards the end of FS2 that the Shivans are partly biological and technological, they are uber-destructive in the course of achieving their goal, there are A LOT of them, and they have been around for thousands of years.
From this, I would deduct/assume the following:
1. the biotechnology means they were either 'built' by way of genetic modification by something else, or they are an advanced enough to race to bioengineer themselves. 2. Whatever this goal is, it is some sort of prime directive - they accordingly follow nothing else by way of surrender or peacemaking efforts. 3. Their population being so high, I would assume either a massive string of overpopulated colonies to give host to the pilots, or that they are being constructed. 4. The sheer age of them gives me some indication that they have an extended history with the universe, yet their origins have to lie somewhere within it.
Continuing the thought process, I'm considering the technology aspect of it, comparing it with what else I know. The apparently endless population, the singular drive for something; could the Shivans be a race of Von-Neumann-like machines, albeit exceptionally complex? A self-replication machine would be constructed with only few directives in mind - the main two being (mostly likely) to reproduce and explore. If we take the results of the reproduce and explore idea many years after the point of construction, the machines would have a vast population and also an incredible knowledge of how space works.
For example. Imagine each machine created were given the directive of create 2 more machines and explore 10km^3 of space per generation. The first generation would have 1 machine and explore 10km^3. That one would spawn 2 more, who would each explore 10km^3. So for the second generation, we would have 2 new ships and 20km^3 more explored. For the third, we would have 4 new ships and another 40km^3 explored, totalling 7 ships/machines and 70km^3 explored. Each generation could be manufactured very quickly, depending on resources and technlogy. In a well stocked area, new generations could be built in a day. Given the number of days in a year and the number of years the Shivans have existed, it explains the massive population of apparently expendable machines. And this is only given the constraints. If machines were given directives to reproduce and explore infinitely, the population would tend towards infinity even faster.
The von-nuemann assumption explains a few aspects of their existence perfectly, as they have had millenia to replicate and explore, resulting in the incredible force the Terrans enounter in the games.
However, that assumption doesn't account specifically for the different types of craft we encounter, nor their origins, and I think for insight into this we have to guess a lot more:
So, the second half of my von nuemann theory is that what if an ancient species (not necessarily The Ancients, though that is possible) built the Shivans with purposes of defending or exploration. But that species was advanced enough to program their defense/exploration craft to evolve over time; to self-improve the self-replication.
This would explain the way they evolve - that its in their programming to not only (as we assume) replicate and explore, but also to defend and in turn evolve.
Could the Shivans be an advanced race of self-replicating machines that have evolved not entirely dissimilar to the human race (i.e. different types of spacecraft, pilots, weaponry, planetary takeovers)?
The final question to this is who made them and what happened to them? Again, working through assumption, we don't know who made them, but that species is most likely extinct, disturbingly at the hands of their own creations: The Shivans replication cycles and directives got out of control and they result in destroying their creators in light of their own objectives. This idea would explain why no other such 'origins' race has been found, and is a strong arguing point for the "Ancients built the Shivan's" idea.
I think the von-nuemann theory certainly covers most of the bases, but there are other possibilities.
For example, the Shivans may have engineered themselves to become what they are today; there might be no 'origins' race and instead the Shivans have bioengineered themselves to become the biotechnological entity that they now are. Since they are dated as being in an extraterrestrial war against the Ancients, they were at least as developed as the Terrans of the game, but thousands of years prior. Over all that time, the Shivans must have continued their technological advancement to such a level where the improvements to their technology were best implemented through biotechnology. In turn, they may have developed psychically to produce this apparent hive mind effect (Though keeping in mind the hive mind status is probably flexible - whether it is simply a awareness or a full communication is unclear, though more likely the former due to the fact that they still have technological communications). In conclusion, this alternative idea would certainly explain their existence more lucidly, but it doesn't necessarily hit all the targets.
Please comment/constructively critisize on those strands of my thinking, I'd like to develop the ideas further. :)
-
:jaw: interesting theory nothing more to say but that :warp:
-
It's "von Neumann". Not "von Nuemann".
Other than that, it's certainly one of the better theories I've read. I am, however, contractually bound to disagree with them :p.
-
I have no problems with your post except the idea that the Ancients created the Shivans. Were this true, we would have at least some hints indicating the fact.
Also, please read the Ancient Monologues - These seem to directly contradict your theory. The Ancients encountered numerous races (and annihilated them) before they encountered the Shivans (and were annihilated themselves) - There is no mention of the Ancients building the Shivans.
Also, the Ancients being the creators of the Shivans goes contradictory to Bosch's "cities of Troy" comment:
What if there had been countless races, stretching back into infinity and like the nine cities of Troy, each civilization had been built on the rubble of the one that came before, each annihilated by the Shivans.
This seems to suggest that (or at least, suggests that the Ancients believed) the Shivans had existed for more than millenia, and had annihilated many species before the Ancients.
If the Shivans are the creation of another species, I think we should assume this species was much, much older than the Ancients.
-
I have no problems with your post except the idea that the Ancients created the Shivans. Were this true, we would have at least some hints indicating the fact.
Also, please read the Ancient Monologues - These seem to directly contradict your theory. The Ancients encountered numerous races (and annihilated them) before they encountered the Shivans (and were annihilated themselves) - There is no mention of the Ancients building the Shivans.
Also, the Ancients being the creators of the Shivans goes contradictory to Bosch's "cities of Troy" comment:
What if there had been countless races, stretching back into infinity and like the nine cities of Troy, each civilization had been built on the rubble of the one that came before, each annihilated by the Shivans.
This seems to suggest that (or at least, suggests that the Ancients believed) the Shivans had existed for more than millenia, and had annihilated many species before the Ancients.
If the Shivans are the creation of another species, I think we should assume this species was much, much older than the Ancients.
For how many stars there are in just the Milky Way, I'd find it tough to believe that (in real life) we are the FIRST or the ONLY species to make it into space (even if our best manned endeavor was orbiting our own satellite and our best unmanned endeavor was exploring our own celestial neighbors). If the Vasudans are there, the Shivans are there, and the Ancients were there, it seems all too likely that there are (many) other races in space. To me, the notion that the Shivans are an artificial race (perhaps spawned by a highly advanced race; perhaps one that mastered biological machines) isn't impossible. Like Star Trek explored (to a degree), what we don't know eventually can hurt us. The way Capella was attacked and destroyed says the Shivans had no regards for anything we had in that system. We could just as well have had nothing to do with Capella; 80 juggernaughts would have beyond-leveled any GTVA force. Hell, 1 might have, 2 could have, and 3 would have. Would they anticipate their first Sathanas to engage the Big C to be lost? I actually think so. We targeted one specifically and destroyed their best weapons BEFORE it engaged the Colossus; they'd have to withdraw or be destroyed. Our ships are not expendable, but the Shivan ships seem to be.
-
For how many stars there are in just the Milky Way, I'd find it tough to believe that (in real life) we are the FIRST or the ONLY species to make it into space (even if our best manned endeavor was orbiting our own satellite and our best unmanned endeavor was exploring our own celestial neighbors). If the Vasudans are there, the Shivans are there, and the Ancients were there, it seems all too likely that there are (many) other races in space. To me, the notion that the Shivans are an artificial race (perhaps spawned by a highly advanced race; perhaps one that mastered biological machines) isn't impossible. Like Star Trek explored (to a degree), what we don't know eventually can hurt us. The way Capella was attacked and destroyed says the Shivans had no regards for anything we had in that system. We could just as well have had nothing to do with Capella; 80 juggernaughts would have beyond-leveled any GTVA force. Hell, 1 might have, 2 could have, and 3 would have. Would they anticipate their first Sathanas to engage the Big C to be lost? I actually think so. We targeted one specifically and destroyed their best weapons BEFORE it engaged the Colossus; they'd have to withdraw or be destroyed. Our ships are not expendable, but the Shivan ships seem to be.
There are a number of assumptions that don't necessarily follow in this post.
The Shivans do not appear interested enough in the GTVA to bother determining what kind of force they were dealing with, and considering how alien they are to both Terrans and Vasudans, Terrans and Vasudans are probably equally alien to them at the least. I don't think they knew or really cared whether the GTVA could take down one Sathanas, they apparently had no real intention of sending just one. The first was merely unlucky enough to be on point and suffered the typical fate of those in a point posistion.
From the Shivan point of view it was entirely possible the were walking into a meatgrinder able to destroy the Sathanas force. They had no way of proving otherwise until Bosch came along (assuming Bosch actually told them anything about GTVA OrBat, which is unlikely even for Bosch; such information is far too easily put to use destroying his beloved humanity), and the Sathanas force was almost certainly in motion before he arrived. Something about what they did to Capella was worth the risk. Shivans almost certainly had no real way of knowing that the GTVA units in Capella weren't waiting on backup or the deployment of specialized weapons before they engaged the Sathanas force; they simply didn't care why the GTVA wasn't fighting them on this, only that the raw fact remained. The Shivan attacks on refugee and evacuation convoys would seem to further serve this goal, by dragging any possible GTVA assets away from attacking the Sathanas fleet and also by serving as a tripwire; increased convoy protection or counterattack against ships serving as fightercraft bases for convoy attacks would forewarn of increasing GTVA strength.
Shivan ships are not necessarily expendible. Though they do get expended quite often, the Lucifer's fleet was apparently much smaller than the combined GTA and PVN forces arrayed against it. There were only three Shivan destroyers seen or mentioned in FS2, two of them multiple times, one of which was mentioned second several systems away from where it was first seen. When commited to the field for a Shivan craft it becomes a matter of do or die; there is no middle ground. We have never seen Shivans break off an engagement except if they were clearly commited to the field in pursuit of a different objective (the first Sathanas). They're not expendible; they're inflexible. Once given orders are rarely or never altered, apparently.
-
For how many stars there are in just the Milky Way, I'd find it tough to believe that (in real life) we are the FIRST or the ONLY species to make it into space (even if our best manned endeavor was orbiting our own satellite and our best unmanned endeavor was exploring our own celestial neighbors). If the Vasudans are there, the Shivans are there, and the Ancients were there, it seems all too likely that there are (many) other races in space. To me, the notion that the Shivans are an artificial race (perhaps spawned by a highly advanced race; perhaps one that mastered biological machines) isn't impossible. Like Star Trek explored (to a degree), what we don't know eventually can hurt us. The way Capella was attacked and destroyed says the Shivans had no regards for anything we had in that system. We could just as well have had nothing to do with Capella; 80 juggernaughts would have beyond-leveled any GTVA force. Hell, 1 might have, 2 could have, and 3 would have. Would they anticipate their first Sathanas to engage the Big C to be lost? I actually think so. We targeted one specifically and destroyed their best weapons BEFORE it engaged the Colossus; they'd have to withdraw or be destroyed. Our ships are not expendable, but the Shivan ships seem to be.
There are a number of assumptions that don't necessarily follow in this post.
The Shivans do not appear interested enough in the GTVA to bother determining what kind of force they were dealing with, and considering how alien they are to both Terrans and Vasudans, Terrans and Vasudans are probably equally alien to them at the least. I don't think they knew or really cared whether the GTVA could take down one Sathanas, they apparently had no real intention of sending just one. The first was merely unlucky enough to be on point and suffered the typical fate of those in a point posistion.
From the Shivan point of view it was entirely possible the were walking into a meatgrinder able to destroy the Sathanas force. They had no way of proving otherwise until Bosch came along (assuming Bosch actually told them anything about GTVA OrBat, which is unlikely even for Bosch; such information is far too easily put to use destroying his beloved humanity), and the Sathanas force was almost certainly in motion before he arrived. Something about what they did to Capella was worth the risk. Shivans almost certainly had no real way of knowing that the GTVA units in Capella weren't waiting on backup or the deployment of specialized weapons before they engaged the Sathanas force; they simply didn't care why the GTVA wasn't fighting them on this, only that the raw fact remained. The Shivan attacks on refugee and evacuation convoys would seem to further serve this goal, by dragging any possible GTVA assets away from attacking the Sathanas fleet and also by serving as a tripwire; increased convoy protection or counterattack against ships serving as fightercraft bases for convoy attacks would forewarn of increasing GTVA strength.
Shivan ships are not necessarily expendible. Though they do get expended quite often, the Lucifer's fleet was apparently much smaller than the combined GTA and PVN forces arrayed against it. There were only three Shivan destroyers seen or mentioned in FS2, two of them multiple times, one of which was mentioned second several systems away from where it was first seen. When commited to the field for a Shivan craft it becomes a matter of do or die; there is no middle ground. We have never seen Shivans break off an engagement except if they were clearly commited to the field in pursuit of a different objective (the first Sathanas). They're not expendible; they're inflexible. Once given orders are rarely or never altered, apparently.
Inflexible? To be honest, I've never looked at it quite that way. But there is a lot of evidence of that inflexibility; they continue on with orders until there's nothing to fight over. Like in the first Gamma Drax mission; they lose a cruiser and a few fighters but their transports & freighters don't appear to really notice. When our cap ships enter and threaten their Cains, they send a load of bombers and call it a day.
Could explain the relative weakness of the Lucifer fleet; while a huge hurtle for the GTA & PVN, we still beat the fleet. Assuming that intel about that defeat was known to the Shivans in FS2, they might find it difficult to believe that 80 Sathanas juggernaughts could be defeated (though a handful would be possible). I'm still "wondering" about how the Big C's destruction REALLY made sense. A sitting duck? Meh; buying but a few minutes, perhaps. Saving a few lives, perhaps. But the loss of tens of thousands of personnel on the GTVA Baseball Bat? I don't see what's too much different. Keeping the Baseball Bat back in a shipyard (being repaired or at least patched up) seems like a better option.
-
When our cap ships enter and threaten their Cains, they send a load of bombers and call it a day.
There was only one Cain in that mission and not even close to a load of bombers. More like 3 Seraphim. Why the exaggeration? Maybe you mean in that kind of general situation and not that specific mission. Cains aren't a valuable warship anyways, so maybe it would hold true in all situations to not defend it well, as you suggest, since I don't recall one being protected much in FS2. The Taranis was better protected then normal for a Cain though. It's a strike cruiser and isn't meant to be in the theatre of operations for long anyways.
I'm still "wondering" about how the Big C's destruction REALLY made sense. A sitting duck? Meh; buying but a few minutes, perhaps.
Did you notice that the Colossus was disabled? That makes it a sitting duck. Perhaps the CO just didn't mention that to Command. FREDing-wise, it shouldn't matter if it is disabled or not, as far as I know. Just don't code it to move in the mission file and it won't. So perhaps it being disabled was the real reason why the C didn't get out, because it couldn't whether it wanted to or not.
Edited to fix typo.
-
I'm still "wondering" about how the Big C's destruction REALLY made sense. A sitting duck? Meh; buying but a few minutes, perhaps.
Did you notice that the Colossus was disabled? That makes it a sitting duck. Perhaps the CO just didn't mention that to Command. FREDing-wise, it shouldn't matter if it is disabled or not, as far as I know. Just don't code it to move in the mission file and it won't. So perhaps it being disabled was the real reason why the C didn't get out, because it couldn't whether it wanted to or not.
Edited to fix typo.
[/quote]
I mean the decision to engage in the first place; having a damaged megaship is better than no megaship at all. On the other hand, with a superweapon like the GTVA Baseball Bat roaming after the invasion, it's a dice throw on who survives and who dies.
-
I have a new theory.
One question I was never able to answer was where the Seraphim came from after the GW. If we go on the assumption that the Lucy and Sathanas fleets were separated, it seems strange for a new design to just pop out of nowhere if the Shivans didn't have shipyards of somekind supporting the Lucifer fleet...
Well, as someone pointed out earlier, we know very little about Shivan capital ships - It may be possible that Shivan destroyers with fighterbays actually manufacture their own fighter complements onboard, which would explain how they never seem to run out of fighters. After the Lucifer went down the remaining Shivan destroyers might have initiated some kind of contingency to put the Seraphim into production...
Meh Iunno
EDITed for superior grammar
-
Interesting idea Snail, it would make sense if you follow the idea of the Shivans being a 'wandering' race: Having shipyards stationary in space can be very unhelpful; in the event of a war you want them far enough from front lines to be safe yet close enough to deliver craft effectively, and in the event of an attack they are confined to one location and aren't built for warfare endurance.
Hence, by adapting to make their shipyards mobile, the Shivans could sever ties to any planets, roving through the galaxy searching for materials to fuel the capital ships.
Makes sense to me :)
Edit: This also helps explain why we never find any Shivan shipyards - though I'm not quite sure how it explains the sporadic cargo depots we encounter...
-
The cargo depots and transports might contain the fuel/resources needed for the manufacturing?
What kind of stuff did we find in scanned Shivan cargo containers anyhow? Pretty strange stuff... So strange they seem to spontaneously explode in Shell Game... lulz
-
I was thinking about that, but thought it might be easier for them to just go ship-to-ship to transfer the materials, if not via shuttles.
On the other hand, maybe the strange materials could be collections of more rare substances; i.e. if they were collecting a rare chemical that needed to be amassed for one particular construct, they may have condensed them into those containers and collected them at that spot.
But I could be overlooking the situation, having an open Shivan cargo dump could make sense for several reasons - any Shivan vessels lost or broken would have a target to reach to repair and refuel etc, or for ships that are tracing back over routes already fully exploited by previous shivans who would need an artificial source of materials if the planets/elements necessary for them weren't present in that area of space...
-
Most of the Shivan cargo we encounter in the original campaign seems to be fighter parts(well, Pandora's Box could have been any kind of Shivan sensor arrays, though the shields that the rest of the Ikeya task force found/scanned almost certainly were fighter shields), but the containers in Enter the Dragon and Playing Judas were respectively, part of a fighter repair center, and specifically identified as yet more fighter parts, according to the debrief), or 'indeterminate'(as in Shell Game).
I think those are the only missions where we encounter Shivan cargo containers, and I don't know/remember what the containers in the original The Wait contained.
Enter the Dragon did mention "multiple supply depots scattered across the [Deneb] system" as well as the repair centers for fighters, so it would seem likely that there is more than just fighter parts out there; we just don't get to see it firsthand.
-
@snail: I don't think Seraphim are anything new. Why would the Shivans be space faring for so long and all of a sudden invent a bomber that isn't much better than a FS2 era Allied bomber? Also, recall that Seraphim are in FS2, so this indicates that the Lucifer fleet was not cut off from the Shivan armada we encountered in FS2, and if it was cut off, then all those ships existed long before the time of being separated and both sides never stopped using that bomber. But I doubt they were completely separated. If they were, why only 32 years pass and we encounter the Shivans again?
Also, in FS2, we see cargo and they have fighter parts too.
I would like to know what materials their ships are made out of and where it comes from. Is it molybdenum? I doubt nebulas are the only source of Shivan material. Could some of it come from subspace somehow?
-
Overconfidence, perhaps, or lack of need? The Lucifer cut through everything in it's path just fine.
I also wonder if they can't practically be launched/stored from fighterbays and loading machinery meant for normal-size fighters. AFAIK, they always appear from subspace, and never from a fighterbay(we've seen Nephilim launch from a destroyer, but not Seraphim). I imagine this isn't a problem for Sathanas bays, though.
Maybe they actually have to unpack, assemble, and keep them at the above fighter repair centers(or something similar). Given Shivans don't need environmental suits, they could easily get pilots into them without needing an Azrael to individually dock with each bomber.
If Seraphim cannot be launched from destroyers, they might have had trouble keeping up with the Lucifer fleet(as the GTA certainly did), and were thus unable to participate in the main Shivan thrust, and thus only came into play when the Shivans were put on the defensive.
EDIT: That's right; we also know the FS1 Shivans had Nahemas or some other very similar bomber class somewhere, from the existence of the Sekhmet as an HoL design/prototype, yet neither appeared at all in FS1/ST. That's an odd one to have to explain, given the Vasudans never seem to have reported the Nahema to the GTA. It would seem to suggest that the Shivans used the Nahema exclusively in HoL space, or the HoL seized Shivan cargo that happened to include Nahema parts(and the FS1 Shivans still never fielded them at all).
-
Uhm, I'd just like to point out that the Astaroth is too small for even a human pilot to fit into. This strongly suggests to me that the Astaroth is either an autonomous drone or remotely controlled somehow.
-
Maybe it just appears too small from the FS2 perspective but if it was life-sized, it would appear to easily fit any pilot into it. As we know, ships from a FS2 ingame perspective appear much smaller than they really are supposed to be. Appearances can be deceiving.
-
As we know, ships from a FS2 ingame perspective appear much smaller than they really are supposed to be.
Wut?
It's too late for me to argue anything- desperately need some sleep- but the sizes for all models in FreeSpace are measured, in fact, in meters. Pop a few models into ModView or PCS if you don't believe me.
I've actually done side-by-side comparisons against the Ulysses in FRED- try it yourself. In fact, the Dragon probably isn't piloted by a Shivan in the full 5-limbed exo-suit/skeleton/whatever.
-
I believe you.
-
...for the thing about the smaller sizes of craft...could it be that the Shivans have some kind of exosuit thats grafted onto themselves most of the time? then removed for piloting?
But on the other hand, the small ships are of very low hull integrity anyway; it's quite likely that they're indeed advanced drones designed for exploration without enough protection to justify a skilled pilot.
And as for what materials the Shivans use...I'm not really sure. What kinds of things are the Terrans and Vasudans using at this point in time; do we know?
My guesses would have been HE3 for fuel and some variation of high-tensile steel or carbon fibre that is processed from raw elements, but not too sure.
-
The Sekhmet bomber is stated to use a Molybdenum alloy in its armor plating...
[Edit/addition]: The Iceni frigate and Ares fighter also use depleted Uranium in (parts of, at least) their armor.
Don't forget that the armor in use on FreeSpace strike craft, even the weakest, is capable of withstanding multiple nuclear munitions (the Fury rocket is stated to have a 3 kT yield).
-
Did you notice that the Colossus was disabled? That makes it a sitting duck. Perhaps the CO just didn't mention that to Command. FREDing-wise, it shouldn't matter if it is disabled or not, as far as I know. Just don't code it to move in the mission file and it won't. So perhaps it being disabled was the real reason why the C didn't get out, because it couldn't whether it wanted to or not.
In-dialogue suggest that Collie was capable of moving. Why would command order it to jump out if it's jump drives weren't working? the Collossuss CO doesn't say they can't jump out - he sez they won't.
And there are waypoints for hte Collie. So obviously it was disabled in the last moment before hte game was shipped because somethnig in the mission wasn't working properly.
Either way, I agree that the Colli staying there was pointless. From the heroic "we won't pull out, we'll delay them" to it's destruction - 15 seconds. Yes, the "heroic" sacrifice bought you 15 seconds. Totally not worth it.
-
Put a Sathanas in one of the last two missions and you'll see how pointless the Colossus's sacrifice was.
-
May I remind you they had 80 of them. And that they were by no means being forced to fight the Colossus?
-
Did you notice that the Colossus was disabled? That makes it a sitting duck. Perhaps the CO just didn't mention that to Command. FREDing-wise, it shouldn't matter if it is disabled or not, as far as I know. Just don't code it to move in the mission file and it won't. So perhaps it being disabled was the real reason why the C didn't get out, because it couldn't whether it wanted to or not.
Why would command order it to jump out if it's jump drives weren't working? the Collossuss CO doesn't say they can't jump out - he sez they won't.
I thought about how command didn't notice it was disabled and wondered why as I was posting that previous comment. Who knows why it was disabled? Volition are the FRED experts so they shouldn't have to use that tag unless retail was very limited in its coding abilities. I have heard it was much harder to FRED in retail.
-
...
Really, people, would it hurt to do some research? There is evidence (in the mission file itself) that V planned a more epic last battle, with the Colly following a set of waypoints. It was scrapped before release, probably due to time constraints during development.
-
I was reading about FS2 in wikipedia yesterday and it said it also scrapped atmosphere battles and certain weapons like a subspace missle. Strange that other games delay releases to fix things or improve upon things while Volition didn't. Maybe they should have create that so called epic battle even if it meant a month delay to fix things. Also strange that V could complete a game so quickly while so many companies seem to slack and take much longer to release sequels.
-
In game development you will always have to make compromises between what you want to do and what you can do, given the time and money constraints. No developer will say no to an extra month of development, but at some point they will have to release something if they want to continue getting paid.
That being said, they were probably happy with the version of FS they finally put out there. That they did it on time and on budget probably made the publisher happy.
Also, remember that the engine was not developed from scratch. It was a refinement on the FS1 engine (which, in turn, was a development based on the Descent code). As such, it was possible to prototype a lot of stuff using the tools developed for the FS1 engine, while the FS2 engine was still in development.
Other companies that were capable of developing their games the same way can release their games faster as well, just look at the evolution from GTA 3 to Vice City to San Andreas. Each of those games added a lot more content, while the core engine was refined (but not redeveloped from scratch) along the way.
-
Put a Sathanas in one of the last two missions and you'll see how pointless the Colossus's sacrifice was.
Totally pointless.
Or are you assuming that it was the Collossuss that stopped the jugs from attacking the convoys? What was stopping them from just jumping in and vaporizing them? Nothing.
The most the collie could do was delay one for 15 seconds - one that apparently wouldn't have even moved away from the star if the collie didn't come in the first place.
-
Although E is quite right the mission probably would have been significantly better if the game devs had had time, the mission as it stands doesn't make much sense.
Not that I put any stock in the collie anyway, useless thing.
-
Just a passing thought - why are they called Shivans?
Ideas on the etymology of the name?
-
It's explained in FreeSpace 1. Shiva is the destroyer in hinduism, and the GTA thought it was a good name for some odd reason.
-
It's explained in FreeSpace 1. Shiva is the destroyer in hinduism, and the GTA thought it was a good name for some odd reason.
I guess because they destroy things, and it rolls of the tongue well.
-
and if they arent called the shivans, the STV gauntlet will be poorly named... ok, that was bad, i know
-
It's explained in FreeSpace 1. Shiva is the destroyer in hinduism, and the GTA thought it was a good name for some odd reason.
I guess because they destroy things, and it rolls of the tongue well.
[/quote]
And in the Ancient Monologues, they are referred to as "The Great Destroyers"; a god or goddess of destruction would fit that description and "explain" how foreign these aliens are.
Anyways, it's still my opinion that the GTVA Supersoaker should have been evacuated with the military and civilian assets when Capella came into direct threat. There's no way in hell that one damaged super-ship could stand up to one powerful ship, much less the threat of eighty. Were the Shivans concerned about decimating us, they'd probably have blockaded all jump nodes from Capella with at least a corvette and a few fighter wings. Transports stand no chance against a Moloch and to break the blockade would cost many ships (judging by how the GTVA throws cruisers, then corvettes, then destroyers to engage a single destroyer). That would entirely cut the chance of escape and could have cost millions more lives during the supernova.
-
I found it silly how the GTVA boasted about its technological superiority when nothing could be further from the truth. The Colossus only won the first time because the Sathanas' beam turrets were disabled. Also silly that the tech description of the Sathanas says that it appears to be comparable to the size and power of the Colossus when the Colossus isn't nearly as powerful as the Sathanas when it comes to anti-warship firepower.
-
I found it silly how the GTVA boasted about its technological superiority when nothing could be further from the truth. The Colossus only won the first time because the Sathanas' beam turrets were disabled. Also silly that the tech description of the Sathanas says that it appears to be comparable to the size and power of the Sathanas when it isn't nearly as powerful as the Sathanas when it comes to anti-warship firepower.
Uh what?
-
There is no way you can argue against my comment. Also, your link isn't clickable. GTVA warship weaponry is NOT superior to the Shivans and the Sathanas' beams are superior to anything the Alliance has. The only exceptions are that the GTVA has better primaries and better fighter/bomber armor on average. But the GTVA does not have tech superiority. How can you argue against that?
I'm guessing that link was directed to the Sathanas because I see the words underlined in my quote. I will check the quote code and the code in your post to be sure and then I will read your intended link.
Edit: you never attached any links. Oh, I said the wrong thing.
Sorry, I meant Colossus. :nervous: Silly me.
-
A very long, well written Von Neumann theory on page 3.
<joke>I've got it! There were two races before the Ancients. One who built the Shivans (Let's call them "M"), and another with a lust for knowledge (Let's call them "S"). The S purchased a liscense to use the Shivan technology from the M for use as an advanced scout program. Unfortunately, the guy in charge of the Shivan scout project set the priority for self-replication a little too high. Shortly therafter, he lost the slip of paper that he wrote the self destruct code on.
Then the Shivans get out of hand with their self-replication and kill everyone. :nervous:</joke>
(I like the second part of your theory)
Seriously though, I have a half thought out theory:
So the Shivans are really old, and they kill pretty much everyone they come in contact with. Sometime before they killed the Ancients, they became whatever type of hive mind. And then in all that time, they just leisurly build ships, explore the universe, philosophize, and become intimately familiar with subspace. Ancients show up and start causing havoc, using subspace a lot to spread that havoc.
See, the Shivans have become rather possessive of subspace itself in all those millenia. When somebody else shows up and starts messing with it, the Shivans react negatively, becoming absolutely focused on destroying them. Maybe it was the construction of the Knossos portals that bugged the Shivans.
So, another *very long* time passes, during which the Shivans continue to build and expand. They have no enemies and therefore no reason to build new technology.
Eventually two more races appear. They're both using subspace to fight eachother, and not treating it very well. Shivans are all, "Can't let you do that, new guys," and send the Lucifer fleet to teach them a lesson they won't survive to learn from.
To their surprise, these two races are far more adaptable and resiliant than expected and they actually beat the Lucifer.
Shivans decide that they'll need a different plan this time. For the first time in millenia they need to think originally and make strategies and new weapons. BAM! Lucifer beams for everyship! BOOM! New fighters and bombers! POW! Send in the Sathanas(es)! WHOOMPH! Blow up a star! That'll teach 'em.
Also to their surprise, instead of dying or fleeing, one guy decides that he want's to try to talk to the Shivans. They don't remember any non-killing form of contact with any other race ever, so they are intrigued. 'Course, the rest of the upstart species still need their spanking.
The theories about shipyard/carrier/battleships are good too, they make sense.
EDITed for readability.
-
Also silly that the tech description of the Sathanas says that it appears to be comparable to the size and power of the Sathanas when it isn't nearly as powerful as the Sathanas when it comes to anti-warship firepower.
Well, the Colossus was almost as powerfull as the Colossus on that battle against the Colossus. So judging by the power output of the Colossus' beams, you can't possibly argue against my theory that the shivans were playing subspace volleyball with the Capella star's core.
Sorry. I just had to... :p
-
I'll go back and fix the typo :D
-
Put a Sathanas in one of the last two missions and you'll see how pointless the Colossus's sacrifice was.
Totally pointless.
Or are you assuming that it was the Collossuss that stopped the jugs from attacking the convoys? What was stopping them from just jumping in and vaporizing them? Nothing.
The most the collie could do was delay one for 15 seconds - one that apparently wouldn't have even moved away from the star if the collie didn't come in the first place.
What do you think would happen if the Colossus jumped out? There was a serious risk that the Sathanas would simply follow it, and the only place worth jumping to for the Colossus would be a jump node to Terran-Vasudan space, the final missions take place between those nodes.
-
They could have just withdrawn the Colossus from Capella when they realized that more than 9 juggernauts were heading to Capella and they had no hope of holding Capella.
-
There is no way you can argue against my comment. Also, your link isn't clickable. GTVA warship weaponry is NOT superior to the Shivans and the Sathanas' beams are superior to anything the Alliance has. The only exceptions are that the GTVA has better primaries and better fighter/bomber armor on average. But the GTVA does not have tech superiority. How can you argue against that?
I'm guessing that link was directed to the Sathanas because I see the words underlined in my quote. I will check the quote code and the code in your post to be sure and then I will read your intended link.
Edit: you never attached any links. Oh, I said the wrong thing.
Sorry, I meant Colossus. :nervous: Silly me.
(http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/data/media/2/LOL.jpg)
Now on to something productive. That's actually a decent point that keeping the Big C in Capella would likely result in it being targeted, as the GeeTeeVeeAye had no clue that Capella was apparently going to go boom. Sort of fails in price, though. If the Shivans really wanted to stop us one or two Sathanas juggernaughts would have let the GTVA use the Big C as a big and fruitless diversion, while still going after the jump nodes. Because really; after the Big C was disabled (if it was in fact disabled and not wasting 10,000 lives on 15 seconds of distraction), it was a sitting duck and not just to a Sathanas. A supernova was coming; any left-over assets are apparently overpowered and destroyed by the supernova's shockwave. It was dead either way. Had the Shivans thought about longer-than-15-second-diversion-strategies, they would have sent the Demon to disabled the Colossus and sent the Sathanas through the node, because NOTHING, especially not the Colossus, would have stopped a Sathanas from going through the jump node.
On the other hand, perhaps the Shivans HAD feared the Colossus was one of x number that the GTVA had? Considering that their actions apparently seal the races off, they might have thought that the GTVA were more industrious and would have built a few more of those superships at least in the thirty-odd years they'd been gone. It could quickly become a deathtrap for them; the GTVA's ships have heavy side barrages (a hold-over from FS1's more-basic-cannons-equals-more-destroyed-ships) while the Shivans have more potent frontal assaults. Imagine a situation where three Colossus's surround a jump node and are able to lay down significant amounts of firepower on any Shivan ships coming through. The Sathanas may make it through, but it'd cost them a dozen or more ships to traverse that pass at Thermopylae, and had the GTVA had the resources (including a bit of strategic planning), could have majorly damaged that 80+ Sathanas fleet. The GTVA are no slackers when it comes to defense; many basic turrets plus heavy flak plus many antifighter beams plus decent smaller ships.
It might be an interesting mission to try and code though it'd be 1000% BoE Syndrome.
-
It might be an interesting mission to try and code though it'd be 1000% BoE Syndrome.
I would like to see this done. Maybe make the mission have about 4 or 5 Colossus' and some smaller warships. Also have Sathanas' jump in and some smaller Shivan warships. No problem with most pc systems these days. Also add some Mjolnirs RBCs. Will this be done and released in the missions subforum someday?
-
It might be an interesting mission to try and code though it'd be 1000% BoE Syndrome.
I would like to see this done. Maybe make the mission have about 4 or 5 Colossus' and some smaller warships. Also have Sathanas' jump in and some smaller Shivan warships. No problem with most pc systems these days. Also add some Mjolnirs RBCs. Will this be done and released in the missions subforum someday?
Only thing is to be careful of the beam trajectories. The Supersoakers would all have to be off to one side, the Mjolnirs would have to be aimed so to not hit any Supersoakers. Toss in a few wings of bombers, a dozen Sathanas juggernaughts, and a scattering of destroyers and corvettes. The real question is which beams to equip the Colossus fleet with; standard Retail or overdriven? And what of ranges? Judging by the Shivans preferring to supernova Capella, they'd likely be afraid of a complete blockade to the point of avoiding it best as possible. However, had the blockade been sprung but a few hours before, I would assume that it'd take a few days and quite a few casualties for the Shivans to find a way around, and probably would do it as a two-pronged attack. Open a thread over in the single missions forum.
The GTVA were smarter in their approach and assumed that the Shivans would be able to advance in technology. Instead of a single Colossus, we built five of them. The "first" Colossus came "off the line" during regular time, the GTVI had a Colossus for experimentation, the third Colossus was rushed out of production, complete, following the discovery of the Nebula Past Gamma Draconis. The fourth and fifth were awaiting staff, armor, and their full compliment of engines. The fourth is rushed (partially complete) to completion following discovery of the Sathanas. The fifth and final Colossus (less complete than the fourth) enters service after the first Sathanas is destroyed. Now, discovery of the other Sathanas juggernaughts commences and the GTVA decides to make a stand in Capella, blockading the node to Gamma Draconis with the assumption that the Shivans would use this path were they to enter GTVA territory. Mission starts and the third Colossus stands "guard" at the jump node along with an Orion. A Ravana destroyer jumps through and is quickly decimated, at which time the GTVA rushes a second Colossus to the "scene". The Mjolnirs and first Colossus engage a Sathanas coming through the jump node. The remaining Colossus juggernaughts are all summoned and two, on alert in adjacent systems, arrive within minutes. Four GTVJ's crowd the GammaDrax node and a fishy destroyer joins the blockade. Several Shivan destroyers pass through the node and are quickly turned into ash, followed but a few minutes later by a trio of SJ's arriving within minutes of each other. Once more the mjolnirs combined with the juggernaughts engage and quickly destroy the Sathanas Trio. The fifth and final Colossus arrives and takes position, at which point a dozen more Shivan capships try to pass through. All are destoyed. A cruiser passes through the node and gives an all-clear, at which point that last Colossus jumps through. News comes in that the Collie 5 destroyed a collective dozen Shivan cruisers and corvettes.
Emergency mission pops up a few "days" later (having kept the blockade the entire time) and a few more Sathanas juggernaughts try to pass and are stopped. However, the Shivans somehow found a way around. Another Sathanas trio jumps in, engages the blockade, and destroys them. As a last-ditch effort and while at low health, one Colossus turns from the GTVA Baseball Bat to the GTVA Battering Ram, destroying itself and the Sathanas by ramming and entering subspace together.
-
Well, with all the comments about the uselessness of the Collossus, I'm wondering how realistically functional it was. From the dialogue in FS2 when we first meet it, its been apparently a really well kept secret using combinations of Vasudan and Terran technologies.
...but what if it wasn't? What if they had to rush the production of the Collossus to put it on active service sooner than planned due to some sort of intel leak? Like if/when a company has some information leak about a product and then has to rush the press release of it to smooth over the cracks; as if to say, that was nothing but a hiccup, we're right on track and still on top of things. The Collossus could have been made prematurely active due to a risk of losing its shock value.
...unless we take a more disturbing train of thought that the Collossus never was as powerful as claimed - perhaps it was designed only for the said shock value, maintaining the facade of incredible firepower, yet in reality having very little offensive capability. The GTVA may have lied to everybody about this to give a source of hope, this man-made behemoth that would protect us all, and to inspire some sort of fighting spirit or confidence; yet its truthfully capabilities would have been nowhere near what was claimed.
...if that makes sense...
Oh and I do like the idea of the Shivans treating us a bit how we treated them - that they may have thought we had a much larger fleet behind us and tried to seal off our two parts of space. :) Flawed at the moment, but I could understand something like that possibly occuring.
And I'd love to see a sort of Tantive IV escape-like mission with the NTF running away with plans for the collossus, I think thats a mini-campaign right there. :nod:
-
The Colossus was perfectly functional, against the threat it was designed for. Nobody knew about the Sathanas or even assumed such a ship was probable (and let's face it, you'll get more mileage out an equivalent tonnage of Ravanas most likely, so the existence of the Sathanas in a pure warship role is unlikely).
So they built the Colossus to fight against destroyers, most likely as a blockade breaker and Lucifer-hunter. It was presented with a completely different threat that it was not at all designed or equipped to combat. Considering the Sathanas' native advantages, particularly in the scenario where the two actually faced-off, the Colossus actually performed quite well.
What do you think would happen if the Colossus jumped out? There was a serious risk that the Sathanas would simply follow it, and the only place worth jumping to for the Colossus would be a jump node to Terran-Vasudan space, the final missions take place between those nodes.
The Sathanas wasn't drawn to the area to kill the Colossus, it was drawn in to deal with the GTVA ships threatening the Gamma Drac node. It has no reason to chase; the Colossus runs and that's mission accomplished.
-
Considering the Sathanas' native advantages, particularly in the scenario where the two actually faced-off, the Colossus actually performed quite well.
Only because of the surgical strike that Alpha 1 executed against the Sathanas' forward beam turrets. The Colossus wouldn't do well at all if those beam turrets were left intact. People seem to forget that though. Even the briefing stated that at least 2 beam turrets must be neutralized for the Colossus to have a fighting chance, but I know that even then, the Sathanas would destroy the Colossus before the Colossus could destroy the Sathanas.
-
So they built the Colossus to fight against destroyers, most likely as a blockade breaker and Lucifer-hunter.
The Colossus' intended purpose in a nutshell. she is to destroyers as the Deimos is to cruisers. she's designed to chew through destroyers fast.this is evidenced when she ters through the SD Beast. she was never designed to take on a ship like the Sathanas, let alone 80 of them. rushed into service or not, the Colossus is still a competant warship in her intended role. However, i do find it odd that the GTVA managed to keep a 6 kilometer long warship, that took 20 years to construct, which probably cost hundreds of trillion dollars to make, a secret and catch the NTF off guard...
-
Considering the Sathanas' native advantages, particularly in the scenario where the two actually faced-off, the Colossus actually performed quite well.
Only because of the surgical strike that Alpha 1 executed against the Sathanas' forward beam turrets. The Colossus wouldn't do well at all if those beam turrets were left intact. People seem to forget that though. Even the briefing stated that at least 2 beam turrets must be neutralized for the Colossus to have a fighting chance, but I know that even then, the Sathanas would destroy the Colossus before the Colossus could destroy the Sathanas.
Beam cannons that were undefended. That's a Sathanas weakness; it's ridiculously easy to disable their primary weapons and that's what the GTVA seems to excel at; surgical strikes at major targets. A Colossus most definitely CANNOT survive an assault when a Sathanas is pointed towards them. Likewise, a Sathanas CANNOT survive an assault when it's facing away from the threat. For all intensive purposes, a Sathanas is a one-trick horse. Large and well defended with the ability to neutralize any capital ships in front of it. The Colossus is almost more refined; its defenses are much better while still being large and well defended.
-
Well, the beams were defended by 2 seemingly heavy flak cannons and had extremely thick armor. So it was defended to a certain extent. I get what you mean though. You must be saying that the Colossus had more anti-fighter turrets defending its beam turrets, but that is because the Colossus doesn't have arms sticking out of range from its defending turrets. Plus, the Sathanas can easily turn around and face the Colossus to open fire, and the Colossus' beam turrets take so much longer to recharge. I'm not sure how much damage per salvo the Colossus does compared to the Sathanas, but I'm sure it's in the tables.
Bottom line is, if you just have the Colossus and the Sathanas going one on one with no bombers, then the Colossus with do a pathetic job, but like a person said, it was not designed to go against Sathani. The Golgotha is though, but sadly it is exclusively a BWO baby and will not be seen against Shivans.
-
Why not just build hundreds of fighters with Maxims, and have them pelt the poor Sathani from afar?
-
Because no Maxim can kill a Sathanas?
-
Given enough time they could :nervous:
-
Nope.
-
E is correct. Warships of corvette class and above will not go below 10% hull if only primaries or normal missiles are used. Only other warships or bombs that are Trebs or higher will bring it down lower than 10%. I noticed this around the time I first got FS2 in 2000 since it was different in this sense than FS1. This limitation is annoying in the mission against the Tiamat Moloch corvette. I could never destroy it even when in sensor range of the Aquitaine.
-
Close, but not quite. Damage does slow down massively below 10% for anything with the bigship flag (I thought that was only destroyers and above, but that's not really relevant). But, if you sit there with a rubber band and time compression you can get it below 10% - just never below 1%.
-
it always seemed to me that ALL damage from primaries/missles was severely handicapped, even above 10%. it really didn't take very long for a few fighters to take down a destroyer in FS1. it seems in about the same amount of time in FS2, the destroyer would only go down 5-10% in hull integrity.
-
Yes, the Tiamat was something I could never destroy.
I'm drunk now from wine at home. Took me a bottle to get that. V Day is a bad day. but I never go to bars. Sorry for off topic. Sometimes I do this and get drunk, but not often. I need a good Asian woman from VN or Japan because I have much in common with the average one and such beauty to to boot. Many think I'm good. Very off topic. This liberal forum allows that more without punishment.
Don't misunderstand for me saying that please. Sorry for saying that but I like the feeling of being more open right now :D someone might put this in their sig. :) You all know how I feel right now. most here probably experienced this.
and this (http://www.grimmemennesker.dk/data/media/2/LOL.jpg) looks gross. is it real?
-
*Shrug* Rule 34. Or maybe 35.
-
Here's my take.
Let's assume that the Shivan function similarly to a hive mind, but is still capable of independent thought.
The Lucifier, would be the queen vessel. ALL Shivan ships, including the massive fleets of Sathani obey the Lucifier. In an effort to preserve energy, Shivan vessels are ordered by the Lucifier to disable beam weapons. Afterall, they have been drifting in space and if we treat them as living creatures, they would have an interest in saving their energy. As the queen vessel, this also explains why it is the only ship in existance and that we never see another Lucifier.
After the destruction of the Lucifier, Shivan forces became disorganized. This is the shock phrase. However, Shivan forces across the entire universe have know awoken from the lost of their queen. Energy weapons are reenabled, more advance vessels are awakened from strikecraft to the Sathanas; the Shivan forces begin to actually mobilize.
Now, in FS2, it's agreeable that the Shivans did not perceive the GTVA as a threat. Whereas it would be in the interest of the Lucifier to destroy any possible threats to its existance, the Shivans in FS2 had no queen to protect. Shivan forces probably then reorganized into smaller fleets (small relative to the entire Shivan species).
This is where my theory splits off. Theory A: Shivan forces are mobilizing to kill other Shivan fleets, essentially a civil war. The GTVA is too insignificant and only survives because the Shivan's best interest is removing the next greatest threat, which is no longer the GTVA, but the other Shivan cliques. Theory B: Shivan forces are desperately trying to rebuild the Lucifier. The Sathani fleet is essentially harvesting stars for raw material and making the jump back to the spawning pool of the new Lucifier. Losing a few Sathani is nothing when compared to reestablishing the hive queen. Theory C: Something is disturbing the spawning pool of the new Lucifier. The Sathani are on a direct route back. This theory attempt to explain the present of the Shivan Comm node. I think it's pretty clear that there's something going on with Shivan communication. Theory D: This is really radical, but perhaps the Shivan are not capable of reproducing intelligent life. So they capture someone like Bosch and intend to somehow change him into the Lucifier. Or maybe, the Lucifier was created by the Shivan's creator, but the Shivans themselves, are not capable of recreating it. So they need Bosch's assistance in this.
-
Theory D: This is really radical, but perhaps the Shivan are not capable of reproducing intelligent life. So they capture someone like Bosch and intend to somehow change him into the Lucifier. Or maybe, the Lucifier was created by the Shivan's creator, but the Shivans themselves, are not capable of recreating it. So they need Bosch's assistance in this.
Well, with the shivans, everything is possible. Maybe the Queen/Lucifer was the only way of producing more Shivans. Maybe ETAK was accidentally transmitting the Shivan's mating call. Maybe they took Bosch with them, who knows where, and he is now the happy girlfriend of the Shivan 3rd battlegroup. Who knows... :p
-
Theory D: This is really radical, but perhaps the Shivan are not capable of reproducing intelligent life. So they capture someone like Bosch and intend to somehow change him into the Lucifier. Or maybe, the Lucifier was created by the Shivan's creator, but the Shivans themselves, are not capable of recreating it. So they need Bosch's assistance in this.
Well, with the shivans, everything is possible.
If that was true, then the Shivans could make anything happen with a thought or make their ships travel the speed of light (laws of physics prevent that) instead of a mere 150m/s or less in real space, or make their subspace essense souls possess a Terran and say, 'we are Shivan (whatever they are really called), resistance is futile'. They can't even eat food like we do and enjoy a nice meal.
Wait... Oh, I guess not everything is possible with Shivans :P. Not even close. Checkmated...
-
Turning Bosh into the Lucifer? :wtf:
The Lucifer is a 2.6km long, metal starship, Bosch is a ~2m tall meatbag.
-
Theory D: This is really radical, but perhaps the Shivan are not capable of reproducing intelligent life. So they capture someone like Bosch and intend to somehow change him into the Lucifier. Or maybe, the Lucifier was created by the Shivan's creator, but the Shivans themselves, are not capable of recreating it. So they need Bosch's assistance in this.
Well, with the shivans, everything is possible.
If that was true, then the Shivans could make anything happen with a thought or make their ships travel the speed of light (laws of physics prevent that) instead of a mere 150m/s or less in real space, or make their subspace essense souls possess a Terran and say, 'we are Shivan (whatever they are really called), resistance is futile'. They can't even eat food like we do and enjoy a nice meal.
Wait... Oh, I guess not everything is possible with Shivans :P. Not even close. Checkmated...
:wtf:
Uh, it was a joke.
Nevermind, I guess it wasn't funny.
-
Well, I think what I said was funny. I just had to say something. :D I was purposely taking it literally even though I knew it wasn't literal when he said 'everything' and he really meant that we don't know all that they can do and so many things are possible.
-
The Lucifer is a 2.6km long, metal starship, Bosch is a ~2m tall meatbag.
Weren't you just arguing the Shivans have vast resources? :P
-
Unless they are also master of magic.....
Mayhaps they can turn a pumpkin into a Sathanas?
-
Since we don't know anything, sky's the limit.
-
Since we don't know anything, sky's the limit.
Stop quoting Dragon! :p
-
Maybe they are the almighty creator of subspace.
Edit: I notice that The E always seems to come and read my posts first and instantly when I post.
-
I always liked the whole "Shivans are the universe's immune system" theory. Humans, like on current day Earth, use up finite resources and destroy their environment, and perhaps the Shivans are the natural response to any race that gets too powerful and endangers the universe itself.
-
The Shivans do seem to be a type 3 civilization while the GTVA seems between type 1 and 2. We are type 0 right now.
Perhaps the Shivans destroy any civilization that can use subspace for travel. I believe they destroy these civilizations because if a civilization has the ability to travel through subspace, then if left unchecked, they might become powerful enough to one day pose a serious threat to the Shivans themselves.
-
I always liked the whole "Shivans are the universe's immune system" theory. Humans, like on current day Earth, use up finite resources and destroy their environment, and perhaps the Shivans are the natural response to any race that gets too powerful and endangers the universe itself.
With so many galaxies spread so far, that's hard to believe. :P
There are probably more than 170 billion (1.7 x 1011) galaxies in the observable universe. Most galaxies are 1,000 to 100,000 parsecs in diameter and are usually separated by distances on the order of millions of parsecs (or megaparsecs). Intergalactic space (the space between galaxies) is filled with a tenuous gas of an average density less than one atom per cubic meter. The majority of galaxies are organized into a hierarchy of associations called clusters, which, in turn, can form larger groups called superclusters. These larger structures are generally arranged into sheets and filaments, which surround immense voids in the universe.
Although it is not yet well understood, dark matter appears to account for around 90% of the mass of most galaxies. Observational data suggests that supermassive black holes may exist at the center of many, if not all, galaxies. They are proposed to be the primary cause of active galactic nuclei found at the core of some galaxies. The Milky Way galaxy appears to harbor at least one such object within its nucleus.
At least 26 galaxies per human. Imagine cataloging and then traversing THAT!
-
There are probably more than 170 billion (1.7 × 1011)
At first I thought you meant 1,011 and it didn't make sense, but you actually meant 10^11. To the power of 11. Probably should use ^ or say 'to the power of'.
-
I always liked the whole "Shivans are the universe's immune system" theory. Humans, like on current day Earth, use up finite resources and destroy their environment, and perhaps the Shivans are the natural response to any race that gets too powerful and endangers the universe itself.
With so many galaxies spread so far, that's hard to believe. :P
There are probably more than 170 billion (1.7 × 1011) galaxies in the observable universe. Most galaxies are 1,000 to 100,000 parsecs in diameter and are usually separated by distances on the order of millions of parsecs (or megaparsecs). Intergalactic space (the space between galaxies) is filled with a tenuous gas of an average density less than one atom per cubic meter. The majority of galaxies are organized into a hierarchy of associations called clusters, which, in turn, can form larger groups called superclusters. These larger structures are generally arranged into sheets and filaments, which surround immense voids in the universe.
Although it is not yet well understood, dark matter appears to account for around 90% of the mass of most galaxies. Observational data suggests that supermassive black holes may exist at the center of many, if not all, galaxies. They are proposed to be the primary cause of active galactic nuclei found at the core of some galaxies. The Milky Way galaxy appears to harbor at least one such object within its nucleus.
At least 26 galaxies per human. Imagine cataloging and then traversing THAT!
Assuming intergalactic subspace nodes, a single species could colonize every one of those galaxies within a reasonable timespan.
-
Well, before running into resistance.
-
Yeah, maybe. You'd do it with von Neumann probes. They might produce Saberhagen berserker variants.
With that kind of overwhelming advantage, resistance might not be meaningful, unless it was another civilization with the same plan.
-
Honestly? If you meet a race that can traverse galaxies, chances are that laying down and being very unthreatening would probably be the best idea.
See also: Xeelee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeelee#Xeelee) and Culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture).
-
First post! However, Ive been a fan of freespace for years, and have been browsing these forums as a GUEST for about a year or more and there's something that always bothered me! That is why didn't the GTVA just pop the node to Gamma Drax upon discovering the second Sathanas?! They seem to have more than enough time to do so! This would have saved Capella (a heavily populated and economically valuable system) and resources used to evacuate Capella as well as having to pop 2 nodes instead of one! Gamma Drax has no planets, no population and no resources to the GTVA so pop the Capella-Gamma Drax node and you cut losses exponentially! Losing Capella has probably set the GTVA back economically by at least a decade if not more!
-
It's a fair question, but I believe that by the time the meson bombs could have been set up and deployed in their destroyer hosts, the Shivans had already overrun the node.
-
The shivans probably had time to overrun the Gamma Drax-Nebula node but I do believe the GTVA had time to pop the Capella node!
-
No, I actually do mean the Gamma Draconis-Capella node.
Getting all those meson bombs in place probably took considerable time.
-
I don't think there was the time, even if mesons were readil available. By the time they rescued Snipes and discovered the sheer number of juggernauts, and accepted inevitable defeat the Shivans had alreasy gained too strong of a foothold in Capella. After all, prior to the second mission of the second SOC loop, as far as the GTVA knew they had a viable method of eliminating Sathanas juggernauts. One more might not have been seen as a neccesarily war-winning advantage for the Shivans the way 80 more so obviously were.
-
better question, how did the lucifer even know which planets were the homeworlds? that wasn't ever even touched in cannon. we went from "we have no reason to believe the shivans know the location of our home system" to "this is not the direct route to sol, which should divert the shivans from our true intent" to "the shivans have finally determined the location of sol".
:wtf:
It's very likely from a military standpoint the Shivans were monitoring the Terrans and Vasudan communications for a very long time. I believe they did the same with the ancients.
Supporting facts:
-The Shivans communicate entirely in the electro-magnetic spectrum. So it would be very easy for them to hack radio based systems.
-The Shivans seemed to be very adept in Terran and Vasudan military doctrine. Several times they took advantage of their superior maneuverability over the Terrans and Vasudans moving as if they knew certain fleets were of little importance.
-The Shivans knew the locations of both Vasuda Prime and Earth. However it needs to be stated that in FS1 they make mention that the Shivans are searching for the location of Sol and then later on that they are narrowing the search down. Perhaps they hacked the Allied communications channel but could only decipher a general location and had to do a similar search for Vasuda Prime?
-The Shivans have no interest in planets. This tells me they are both very well off logistically speaking and that they do not need the vast sums of info planets often contain. It also tells me their war is one of extermination not conquest.
-The Shivans, like anyother force would be unable to fight a effective war without certain info beforehand which cascades back to number 1 and 2.
It is very very likely the Shivans destroyed innumerable galactic empires between the Ancient's time and our own. They probably have a very well developed military battle plan. However I think the Lucifer fleet was merely a scouting force. It is stated in FS2 that the Shivan ships of the second war are vastly superior technologically and militarily to the FS1 era ships. To me this means that the Shivan scouting force did it's job, perhaps to research the massive Sub-Space disturbances encountered. And probably were to be the first attack wave, was defeated, and the Shivans assembled the second armada and waited for a good time to strike. I think the second fleet was a full battle fleet designed purely for annihilation. This is evident because the second armada had a much better balanced roster of ships in it. Including carriers, destroyers, planet-killers, cruisers, frigates, corvettes, etc.
Also without ever having been defeated before encountering the Alliance the Shivans would have at least 10,000+ years of military supremacy. They most likely would have allowed their fleets to stagnate technologically speaking and their military philosophies would have stagnated as well. As they have no need to adapt (why fix that which isn't broken). This complacency is what doomed them to defeat in the First Great War. It is unclear to be if I can claim we won the Second Great War. But they disappeared and we are still here, so maybe yes? So the ships we saw in both wars their designs is most likely at least 10,000 years old. As for before the Shivans met the Ancients? It's stated in game they never knew defeat before it is very likely the Shivans have been conquering for hundreds of thousands of years. I believe the Shivans have a large galactic empire of their own in another galaxy I don't buy they were birthed and sustained in Sub-Space as there is nothing to live off in that universe.
-
I've got a question: why was Capella special?
As I was thinking, we have to have a sun in the binary system, right? And probably some of the systems beyond weren't nebulas either (not to mention the possibility of a third way out from the initial nebula), I guess. If so, the Shivans had at least some suns to use for their weird doings at the end of the game - but if so, why were they running down to Capella? Why was Capella so special?
-
I've got a question: why was Capella special?
As I was thinking, we have to have a sun in the binary system, right? And probably some of the systems beyond weren't nebulas either (not to mention the possibility of a third way out from the initial nebula), I guess. If so, the Shivans had at least some suns to use for their weird doings at the end of the game - but if so, why were they running down to Capella? Why was Capella so special?
Size, Temperature, Mass, Heat...
Infact if you'll notice there are two other very-relevant-to-shivan-campaigns stars mentioned in FS canon that are extremely similar to Capella.. :P
-
I'm personally all for the "allowing other species to thrive" idea. Just wait until the GTVA opens up a Knossos portal to a system with a more primitive, but intelligent species. Uh, oh, here come the Great Preservers. :mad2:
Quote from Endgame cutscene (FS1):
I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The Shivans are the Great Destroyers, but they are also the Great Preservers. That is why, when we moved into space, there was no one powerful enough to kill us.
Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come.
When the GTVA finally finds another intelligent race on a slower evolutionary path in some previously uncharted system, the Shivans will utterly eliminate the Terran and Vasudan races. Just another day at the office... :pimp:
-
When the GTVA finally finds another intelligent race on a slower evolutionary path in some previously uncharted system, the Shivans will utterly eliminate the Terran and Vasudan races. Just another day at the office... :pimp:
I personally must disagree with that viewpoint. The Shivans to me are the "Great Preservers" in that they only preserve themselves by killing anything that could be a threat to them- AKA anybody who figures out how to use Subspace.
-
I'm actually with Kopachris here - I think that's a chunk of FS canon which is very often overlooked but also very critical.
Maybe supplies the 'bigger problem' :V: hinted at too.
-
Great Perservers my a**. What the hell are they preserving?
They "protect" less developed races from more developed ones, only to annihilate them once they develop enough.
"I'll save you today so I can kill you tomorrow!" Yeah...real noble from the shivies :rolleyes:
-
Not at all. If a species were to develop in a manner which suggested it was cooperative, rather than inclined to suppress all other species it met (like the Ancients), it might be spared (as indeed we might have seen in FS2.)
-
Exactly. By the end of the Terran-Vasudan War, both species were on the path to, if not quite mutual extinction, then at least complete economic collapse. From the Shivans' point of view, if such a thing can be comprehended, both looked like the same sort of warmongers that the Ancients had been, and so both were worthy of annihilation; indeed, it was only via a transformation from a state of war into mutual cooperation that the Shivan fleet was defeated. Note that the Shivans of FS2 made no real attempt to move into GTVA space beyond Capella (and that lone Sathanas), suggesting if nothing else that they did not view Terrans and Vasudans in the same light as the Lucifer fleet did.
-
I say, good sir, I find your assessment in accord with my own!
-
First post!
Welcome to the HLP forums DOCTOR DOOM.
In Ye Olde Days there was a whole greeting speech with flamethrowers and shivans, but we don' use that anymore. Then we used to fry newbs with the:
(http://www.hard-light.net/forums/Smileys/HLP/welcome2hlpbb.gif)
WELCOME BEAM..but these days we mostly say hi.
So enjoy your stay, and please don't try to conquer us.
-
Not at all. If a species were to develop in a manner which suggested it was cooperative, rather than inclined to suppress all other species it met (like the Ancients), it might be spared (as indeed we might have seen in FS2.)
Meh. What gives shivans the right to annihilate whole other species?
Do we have any evidence that shivans don't destroy species regardless of how friendly they are?
After all, didn't we try to communicate with them?
What's it to them anyway? Why do they care? And why complete annihilation?
It's not like species are a group mind that all share the same values and goals.
There's really nothing "just" about the shivans.
-
1. Right of might.
2. Yes we do; they didn't try to destroy us in FS2.
3. Indeed we did, and lo and behold they left us alone.
4. They try to preserve the diversity of the universe to prevent monoculture.
5. Do we know that?
-
It's not like species are a group mind that all share the same values and goals.
If the Shivans are a hive-mind, it's very likely that they don't understand this concept - every action by every member of a species would be construed as guided by the central intelligence and therefore the responsibility of the species as a whole. The idea that Shivans don't understand the concept of a race of individuals would actually explain a lot about their motives and behavior in both games. Remember, no one had ever communicated with them, they had no reason to change this conception. Orson Scott Card made a great point about hive consciousness in his Ender books - the Buggers didn't realize that the individual humans they were killing were unique minds that were permanently destroyed along with their physical bodies. Shivan tactics are pretty well explained by this view - they went for the home planets because that's where the "central intelligence" would most likely be located.
That's probably why they took Bosch away - he's the first entity they'd met in a very long time who communicated with them in terms they considered meaningful. Either they concluded that he was a center of control for the human race (which is true to some extent, given his leadership position), or they realized that they were dealing with a race of individuals and wanted to study them. Either way, Bosch (and anyone else who operated the ETAK device) would be the only ones who registered "individual" to them (in terms of being a distinct consciousness), so killing the rest of the crew wasn't a big deal. That would also explain Capella, at least to an extent. The Shivans realized that human minds were moving around on ships, which meant that destroying the planets wasn't enough, they had to wipe out the entire system. What better way to do that than nova the star?
-
1. Right of might.
Which is no real right
2. Yes we do; they didn't try to destroy us in FS2.
We have no idea what they were trying to do in FS2. Remember, the nodes were collapsed? Maybe they weren't in a hurry? Maybe they would have wiped the GTVA later?
3. Indeed we did, and lo and behold they left us alone.
We tried in FS1, they attacked
Bosch communicated with them in FS2, thy still boarded his ships and killed almost everyone, and they CONTINUE to attack the GTVA after that.
They didn't really left us alone, we sealed the nodes.
4. They try to preserve the diversity of the universe to prevent monoculture.
You don't preserve diversity by wiping out entire civilizations.
5. Do we know that?
Are you saying the shivies assume all species they encountered are like robots? That all of them share the same goals and ideas and EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM needs to be exterminated?
-
*shrug* I think I've made the point clearly enough. Although:
You don't preserve diversity by wiping out entire civilizations.
If those civilizations are wiping out other civilizations? Yes you do.
-
When the GTVA finally finds another intelligent race on a slower evolutionary path in some previously uncharted system, the Shivans will utterly eliminate the Terran and Vasudan races. Just another day at the office... :pimp:
That is, if we show the intention of subduing or crushing the friendly, less advanced fish-peoples. If we just leave them alone, let them evolve on their own, welcome them peacefully to the wide universe when they finally develop advanced space travel, then the Shivans will likely leave us alone as well.
But the Shivans' specific motive...? Maybe they just don't like war. Maybe war destroys space. Only [V] knows.
-
Did we ever run across any intelligent species other than the Vasudans? What were the circumstances that caused the T-V War? These questions matter if we are to try and divine our standing in the Shivans' eyes.
Without a definitive answer from [V], I am of the stance that the Shivans simply destroy and are the Preservers only of themselves. Speculation by Alpha 1 and Petrarch at the end of each respective storyline, while food for thought, does not count as hard evidence. At the moment, signs point to the Shivans having very large-scale goals, above and beyond the destruction of humanity. But with no real information about those goals (everybody has heard the "sign of a larger problem" quote, but that doesn't really tell us a whole lot), I'm simply defaulting the Shivans to "enemy" status.... However, I am open to persuasion.
-
You don't preserve diversity by wiping out entire civilizations.
If those civilizations are wiping out other civilizations? Yes you do.
No you don't. There's no way you can justify killing off an ENTIRE species.
Also, if you later end up killing the very same "baby species" you were supposedly protecting...what the difference then?
-
Trimming the grass.
-
You don't preserve diversity by wiping out entire civilizations.
If those civilizations are wiping out other civilizations? Yes you do.
No you don't. There's no way you can justify killing off an ENTIRE species.
Also, if you later end up killing the very same "baby species" you were supposedly protecting...what the difference then?
See, these are all moral objections. Very human, very subjective. I bet you can justify killing off an entire species: if they were trying to kill you off.
And the difference is, you kill off the species that are a threat to other species. The cooperative species get to live.
In fact the Shivans even provide incentive for that cooperation.
-
1. Right of might.
Which is no real right
Try telling that to the guy pointing a tank barrel down your throat. :p
-
See, these are all moral objections. Very human, very subjective. I bet you can justify killing off an entire species: if they were trying to kill you off.
Only if every last member of the species is a bloodthirsty warmonger.
Which is how likely exactly?
Pulverize the military. Blast a species infrastructure, so they'll not be able to bother anyone for hunderds of years.
And the difference is, you kill off the species that are a threat to other species. The cooperative species get to live.
In fact the Shivans even provide incentive for that cooperation.
How do you know cooperative species get to live?
No proof of that.
-
That's the central tenet of this theory, TrashMan. It's an explanation for Shivan behavior that fits the observed facts.
The Shivans did not try to annihilate the GTVA in FS2. They did quite the opposite.
-
There is always the possibility a conquering species decides to grow up and stop subjugating. That happened once that we know of when the Terrans and Vasudans banded together to fight the Shivans. What if another race has just conquered, and not exterminated or enslaved, just made the conquered second-class citizens? Should they be exterminated by the Shivans? What about the members of the subjugated races living on the worlds the Shivans destroy? Are they are their race just collateral damage?
-
Hm, so if we assume that the Shivan spared the GTVA on the basis that they are cooperative then perhaps Volition would bring the Shivan back after the GTVA reestablishes contact with a hostile Earth.
-
That's the central tenet of this theory, TrashMan. It's an explanation for Shivan behavior that fits the observed facts.
The Shivans did not try to annihilate the GTVA in FS2. They did quite the opposite.
A lot of theories fit those facts.
Have you forgotten that humans and vasudans did cooperate during FS1? Shivans saw it. Did they stop? Nope - they vent straight to Vasuda Prime and then to Earth.
FS2 - they didn't exactly stop either. The Sathanases didn't engage directly, they gathered around the sun. But the other ships attacked everything - including the civilians. They didn't make a big effort to push further, but so what? That doesn't mean they wouldn't have done that. Maybe they were just systematic - completely clean out one system before moving on.
And another thing. For a supposedly very inteligent and advanced species, shivans act incredibly dumb. If they deem themselves worthy to pass judgment on all the other species they encounter, then they should at least inform themselves about those said species first. To say they do not know terrans and vasudans don't have a hive mind shows an utter lack of basic intelligence gathering on their part. Have they been wiping out civilizations on a whim?
-
I don't agree with the fundamental tenets that lead to your arguments. They're anthropocentric and narrow.
-
Anthropocentric? Not really.
Narrow? Definately not.
There's nothing human centric about my views, except maybe the morality aspect, but me being a human being, my own morality is the only one I CAN use, like it or not.And since I belive my morlaity is utterly correct on a universal scale....
But that's beside the point.
The shivans being the "Great Perservers" or the "Great Destroyers" is just a view on them we get from some people in the game. the ancient monologues are very spiritually influenced. The ending monologues are musings from in-game characters, who have access to no more data than we do regarding shivans.
My questions are simple:
If the shivans know humans and vasudans aren't a hive mind, if they know we don't naturally communicate in the EM spectrum - why ignore our attempts at communication, and why try to kill every last one of us? Isn't the military only a small percentage of the entire population?
If they don't know, then why do they commit to act of genocide while knowing so little?
To me, it seems like the shivans are some automated cyborg defenders gone beserk.
-
Perhaps they believe in collective responsibility.
You're trying to apply human morality to something not human.
-
What about logic? Or is there "human logic" that doesn't work for shivies?
-
What about logic? Or is there "human logic" that doesn't work for shivies?
The same logic with different points of origin, and different input methods will yield different answers.
This is what I was trying to explain to someone else the other day.
Just because it's the only possible way you see it being 'sensible' or 'logical' or 'humane' or even 'explainable', doesn't mean you're either correct or close.
-
If the shivans know humans and vasudans aren't a hive mind, if they know we don't naturally communicate in the EM spectrum - why ignore our attempts at communication, and why try to kill every last one of us? Isn't the military only a small percentage of the entire population?
If they don't know, then why do they commit to act of genocide while knowing so little?
To me, it seems like the shivans are some automated cyborg defenders gone beserk.
I tried to explain this a page back but I guess it got glossed over - it's very possible that the Shivans don't have a concept of individuals. It's a huge conceptual leap from group consciousness to individual consciousness. As other posters have pointed out, a hive mind is likely to operate with a set of morals based on collective responsibility, collective identity and collective action. If the Shivans think every race they encounter is a collective consciousness, killing a whole species might be the only way to go about it - after all, if there's one collective intelligence controlling billions of creatures and the intelligence is dangerous, the sensible thing to do is to wipe them all out. Shivans might not differentiate between warriors and civilians - again, it's likely the don't make the distinction in their own society. Furthermore, the Shivans aren't attacking us because we pose a real threat now, they're attacking because we will pose a threat further along in our evolution - setting us back a few hundred years would be a waste of time and resources. Since they want to get rid of our expansionist culture in general, the only reason to show us limited mercy would be concern for the individual well-being of the humans alive at any given time, which the Shivans haven't displayed at any time.
It's very possible that the Shivans don't regard communication outside the EM spectrum as communication at all. Even if they can detect our chirping and mumbling, it might be so different from their concept of communication that it wouldn't register as such. If you were about to douse a nest of hornets with insecticide and they let off pheromones pleading for mercy, would you notice or care?
Bosch was probably the first instance where the Shivans realized that we were capable of communication - all of their anomalous actions occurred after that point. Either they decide to exterminate us even more thoroughly by destroying our stars (and had to stop after 1 because the nodes were sealed) or they decided to make a big move out of our arm of the galaxy by opening a special node to god-knows-where.
-
This is what I was trying to explain to someone else the other day.
Just because it's the only possible way you see it being 'sensible' or 'logical' or 'humane' or even 'explainable', doesn't mean you're either correct or close.
Let me put it this way:
If the shivies are well informed about us, then they are xenohobes and bastards
If they are not, then they are idiots who make grand decisions with little research beforehand.
This is how I see things and this how I will continue to see things, unless something official from [V] comes along to change that. So let's politely agree to disagree and move along..
-
Hmm... ~wishes there were an amused, raised eyebrow emoticon to put here~
Perhaps meeting Bosch, and the presumably completely different reaction of the majority of the Iceni's crew, is what made them realize that Terrans must not be of a hive mind?
I still tend to default to the idea that unless the Shivans have been around for a ridiculously long time(and witnessed the countless tides of civilizations rise, war and fall, and decided they had to do something about it), they're more likely acting out of self(-species/collective) preservation, than any kind of 'external' philosophical purpose(though it's hard to know for sure; obviously, we know they have very advanced technology and understanding of subspace, so there's no reason to think they can't have developed higher philosophical leanings).
The 'hive-mind as their only understanding in relation to others' context definitely nicely explains the seeming disproportionate retribution aspect of the Shivans. Fits nicely into my thinking that the GTI('behind the scenes', as it were) may have ticked off the Shivans, resulting in the "Great War".
Here's an odd thought: Maybe the Hammer of Light actually did somehow ally themselves with the Shivans, or at least, by their very different behavior(for one, apparently refusing to defend themselves against the Shivans, as demonstrated with the Ramses) convinced them that the HoL was a different entity from the Vasudans proper, and(among other things, perhaps) were 'given' plans or a prototype of what became(for the Shivans) the Nahema, to reverse engineer, and give them a technological boost against their mutual enemies. The HoL took most of their secrets to the grave, but the PVE was able to recover some of the prototype Sekhmets, and noted that they had some commonality with Shivan technology.
If the FS2 Shivans were of a different 'hive', it's possible the Trinity may have panicked and fired first, and that was the trigger that initiated the "Second Shivan Incursion".
Whether truly the case or not, still very interesting...
-
If the shivans know humans and vasudans aren't a hive mind, if they know we don't naturally communicate in the EM spectrum - why ignore our attempts at communication, and why try to kill every last one of us? Isn't the military only a small percentage of the entire population?
For all we know, "we come in peace" translates into "Your mother is an Altarian Sea Cow" in shivanese
-
And the difference is, you kill off the species that are a threat to other species. The cooperative species get to live.
Putting everything else aside about Trash arguments, he does have a central point that should not be overlooked.
Preserving species you will later destroy is simply wasteful. If the Shivans were really in it to promote diversity, then an armed peacekeeper role and not a mysterious cosmic destroyer one is called for, and they need to intervene much earlier. It's not about morality; it's about efficency.
-
And the difference is, you kill off the species that are a threat to other species. The cooperative species get to live.
Putting everything else aside about Trash arguments, he does have a central point that should not be overlooked.
Preserving species you will later destroy is simply wasteful. If the Shivans were really in it to promote diversity, then an armed peacekeeper role and not a mysterious cosmic destroyer one is called for, and they need to intervene much earlier. It's not about morality; it's about efficency.
I'm not sure I get what you're saying. The Shivans preserve by destroying the 'sinners', as the Ancients put it. They don't actively go out and nurture new species. The destroyers are destroyed, and all the species that said destroyers would have wiped out instead get to grow up and take their turn at judgment.
In this theory, everybody gets a free ride up until the point where their attitude towards other species starts to matter - i.e. when they run into other species. The Shivans are a filter.
The first the Shivans probably notice of a species is when it starts using subspace travel. That's when it becomes a threat to create a galactic/intergalactic monoculture.
The Shivans don't need to evaluate all the nascent potentials on multiple worlds. They're not a terrestrial species. Suggesting that they intervene with pre-subspace cultures is like claiming we should extend our law enforcement to apes.
In short, the most efficient way for the Shivans to promote diversity is to wait for new starfarers to present themselves, give them a while to see how they act, and then either ignore them or throw a test their way.
-
I am not 100% sure that the Ancient monologues (which form the basis for most of the ideas regarding the Shivans) are accurate. If we consider the first ancient monologue (and the astonished surprise in its voice when it says "they did not die") we can see that the Ancients have a rather... well, infantile and sometimes outright wrong (I mean, the ignorant way they are mystifying and talk about the fact that they are killing off races for almost no reason but to expand their empire).
As such, I am not convinced that the Shivans aren't merely xenocidal without all the mysterious motives. Not until I see a race whom they don't eradicate. Until that, Shivans = a mysterious, technologically superior, xenocidal race that has some shady agenda with subspace in my book - no more, no less.
-
At some point you need to look at the narrative role of the monologues in both games, though. They could be red herrings, but on the other hand, they might not be.
Whatever Works For Your Mod, of course, but I find the most interesting challenge is to use all the clues :V: dropped instead of disregarding them.
-
I was under the impression that the Shivans preserve races that aren't developed enough to use subspace - if the Ancients arrived at Earth when we were busy mastering agriculture and hunting buffalo, they might have wiped us out. By destroying aggressive interplanetary races the Shivans preserve those that are still developing. Because of the exponential rate at which technology develops, most species will be in a pre-space travel state most of the time. There are a lot of hints in both FS1 and 2 that the Shivans take an interest in subspace activity. The Shivans might consider entry into subspace the point at which a race is "mature" and therefore subject to their judgment - in other words they would decide whether a species was aggressive or cooperative based on the way it behaves once it can travel the stars. They wouldn't necessarily need an interest in culture to make that determination, they could just observe the way a given species treats other space faring races it encounters.
-
I was under the impression that the Shivans preserve races that aren't developed enough to use subspace - if the Ancients arrived at Earth when we were busy mastering agriculture and hunting buffalo, they might have wiped us out. By destroying aggressive interplanetary races the Shivans preserve those that are still developing. Because of the exponential rate at which technology develops, most species will be in a pre-space travel state most of the time. There are a lot of hints in both FS1 and 2 that the Shivans take an interest in subspace activity. The Shivans might consider entry into subspace the point at which a race is "mature" and therefore subject to their judgment - in other words they would decide whether a species was aggressive or cooperative based on the way it behaves once it can travel the stars. They wouldn't necessarily need an interest in culture to make that determination, they could just observe the way a given species treats other space faring races it encounters.
What NGTM-1R objects to with this theory is that it makes no sense to save these planetbound races if you're just going to blow them up later; the Shivans should actively try to steer them towards cooperative behavior.
My response would be that the Shivans don't actually give a ****. They operate on huge scales and with vast numbers of candidates. Human beings don't start educating their young until they've finished fetal development, and the Shivans don't start exerting any selective pressure until a species has graduated from 'embryo' stage to 'bawling subspace-capable youngster.'
The Shivans might also be inclined to let species develop as they will up until the point where it matters. That allows greater diversity (since pre-subspace intervention by the Shivans might force species into particular evolutionary paths.)
Remember - this is addressed to NGTM-1R - the Shivan methods of interaction are 'kill' and 'ignore'. They don't seem to have any other settings. This could be by design, or it could just suggest an Eldritch Abomination-type intelligence, but either way it prevents them from being Happy Planetary Educators as thoroughly as our mindset prevents us from talking bacteria out of being infectious.
-
Going back to the earlier comment on the Great War shivan fleet gradually locating the allied Homeworlds, how did the alliance know the shivans motives? Even if the shivans knew where they were going. How did we know they knew they did?
Etaks grandad?
Also, regarding Capella: the canon shows Shivans mining gas, i'd like to think that they wanted another nebula, but didn't want to waste their beachead in el system del Knossos.
-
Hmm. The Ancients Monologues aren't exactly clear about whether the Shivans were originally prey, predator, or competition to the Ancients. In Ancients 2, for instance, they say, "When the destroyers came for us, we attacked." That seems to imply that the Shivies are predator, hunting the Ancients. Then they go on to say, "We could forego one system. We left it to the destroyers...", which makes it seem as though the Ancients and the Shivans were competing over a system.
I guess the real question is whether the cutscenes are considered canon fact or simply in-universe character musings. When Alpha 1 says he "knows why the Ancient Ones were destroyed", should we take his word for it? Did [V] want us to figure it out or lead us to a dead end? Food for though.
-
The Ancient recordings are the last surviving archives of the race.
They're retrospective in nature. The destroyers monicka was probably applied after momentum shifted from the Ancients favour. I always took that other ancient scene to mean that the ancients lost a populated system to the shivans and tried locking it off.
-
I'm not sure I get what you're saying. The Shivans preserve by destroying the 'sinners', as the Ancients put it. They don't actively go out and nurture new species. The destroyers are destroyed, and all the species that said destroyers would have wiped out instead get to grow up and take their turn at judgment.
Which is a false dichotomy. They're still going to end up destroying what they preserved earlier at some point. It's still wasted effort.
In this theory, everybody gets a free ride up until the point where their attitude towards other species starts to matter - i.e. when they run into other species. The Shivans are a filter.
Which isn't as effective as prevention. If this is really their purpose and they're capable of rational evaluation of it, they ought to have realized this.
The first the Shivans probably notice of a species is when it starts using subspace travel. That's when it becomes a threat to create a galactic/intergalactic monoculture.
But they can do better than that. They can prevent threats totally rather than letting them emerge. It'd be easier, and it help prevent monoculture much more effectively by having greater diversity.
The Shivans don't need to evaluate all the nascent potentials on multiple worlds. They're not a terrestrial species. Suggesting that they intervene with pre-subspace cultures is like claiming we should extend our law enforcement to apes.
If the apes were eventually going to be our neighbors, that would make quite a bit of sense, wouldn't it? Uplift is a classic science-fiction concept. Even if you hold onto the concept of "pre-subspace noninterference", the Shivans could still be more proactive once a race discovers subspace. This "wait and see" approach ultimately limits diversity as I will note below.
In short, the most efficient way for the Shivans to promote diversity is to wait for new starfarers to present themselves, give them a while to see how they act, and then either ignore them or throw a test their way.
Aside from it being easier to influence rather than destroy utterly making a mockery of your argument, there is another issue. In destroying, they also limit diversity. If they preserved these species they would later destroy instead by giving them a nudge in the correct direction, or simply being there immediately to greet them at the end of their first jump and explain the facts of the universe ("Be nice and we won't wipe you out."), diversity would be enhanced. There would be more species, more cultures. All evidence we have is that the Shivans are capable of rational thought, so they must know this.
You're right to assume the Shivans simply don't care. But that's because they're not caring about diversity at all. There are better approaches for preserving diversity no matter how you cast their interest or when it occurs or their conceptions of numbers (which I would warn you, you're making assumptions about).
They're not out there to preserve, not by design at least. Either they are incapable of rational evaulation of this drive, or it is not their driving purpose. Pick one.
-
I disagree.
edit: whoops, where'd the rest go?
Namely, I disagree because you've created a nice program for humans to help out other species that are pretty near human.
It's not a program that will work in a universe where communication between most forms of life is probably impossible.
It wouldn't work on our newly imagined friends the Neumanns, who are a species of nonsentient colony probes gone berserker who just process planetoids into Dyson spheres which in turn manufacture more Neumanns.
In fact I suspect that most life in the universe is viral in this sense and that this is in no small part what the Shivans were designed to counter.
I recommend Stanislaw Lem, 'Solaris' or 'The Invincible', for good treatments of the topic.
The Shivans appear quite happy to employ the universal form of communication. You seem to be taking my argument as 'oh, the Shivans are here as a big intergalactic Neighborhood Intervention Program.' I don't think they are. I think they're a component of a very basic form of punish/reward conditioning meant to work on any form of life - a carrot/stick program without any carrot except survival.
We breed dogs by positive action - help the ones we like mate. The Shivans breed species by negative action: don't kill the ones that meet the criteria.
It might not seem locally optimal to you, but in terms of global effort across a limitless number of candidate species in multiple galaxies, it's the simplest, most reliable, and most efficient solution. Interference is hard, destruction is easy.
If it weren't for the need for their to actually be a game I'd expect the Shivans to just RKV everything after some observation.
In any case I'm happy to accept multiple explanations for the Shivans - Whatever Works For Your Mod! - but I think this one is nicely supported by canonical hints.
-
After watching the endings again, I really like what Petrarch had to say. Maybe the Shivans are really just exiles lost in our space for thousands of years. Being isolated from home, the Shivans would undoubtedly be aggressive in order to stay alive. It's better to destroy any threats before they become serious. So they became known as the Great Destroyer and Great Preserver to all the species that developed. However, Bosch somehow found the key that would allow the Shivans to return home. The destruction of Capella might have created a massive jump needed to reach some distant universe. Perhaps FS3 would have little or no Shivans at all. I can imagine rediscovering earth could send the GTVA into some massive conflict.
Now after watching a good number of the cutscenes again, I just have to say Volition did a superb job at giving so many different point of views which only further enhances the mystery of the Shivans. The Ancients, Bosch, Petrarch, and even Alpha 1 had different interpretations of the Shivans.
-
Now after watching a good number of the cutscenes again, I just have to say Volition did a superb job at giving so many different point of views which only further enhances the mystery of the Shivans. The Ancients, Bosch, Petrarch, and even Alpha 1 had different interpretations of the Shivans.
They do seem conflicting, don't they? But are they really? Or am I over-analyzing as usual?
Personally, I think it may be a combination of theories. Lost in our plane of existence, perhaps the Shivans took up the role of protectors of innocence. This could provide the "bigger problem" if the GTVA discovers a developing species and starts meddling with its evolution without any Shivans to stop them.
-
In short, the most efficient way for the Shivans to promote diversity is to wait for new starfarers to present themselves, give them a while to see how they act, and then either ignore them or throw a test their way.
Wouldn't the universe be even MORE diverse if they don' completely wipe out whole races?
A universe with Ancients, Terrans and Vasudans is more diverse than one with just Terrans and Vasudans...
-
Another thought...Do we actually have any hint of a race the shivans DIDN'T destroy?
All we see from the shivans is kill, kill and more kill. OR should I say ex-ter-min-ate!
All of this simply makes the whole "they nurture cooperation" theory rather lacking in any support.
And it still doesn't answer the question of why they continued to attack in FS1, even after humans and Vasudans were bussom buddies.
-
In short, the most efficient way for the Shivans to promote diversity is to wait for new starfarers to present themselves, give them a while to see how they act, and then either ignore them or throw a test their way.
Wouldn't the universe be even MORE diverse if they don' completely wipe out whole races?
A universe with Ancients, Terrans and Vasudans is more diverse than one with just Terrans and Vasudans...
No. Because the Ancients would have taken out the Terrans and Vasudans just as they did many other species.
Another thought...Do we actually have any hint of a race the shivans DIDN'T destroy?
Yes we do: the Terrans and Vasudans. When they clearly could have.
In this theory, they continued to attack in FS1 because the way you prove your cooperative chops (once you've been xenocidal enough to draw the Shivans in the first place) is by knocking out the Lucifer. It's the only way out.
-
In this theory, they continued to attack in FS1 because the way you prove your cooperative chops (once you've been xenocidal enough to draw the Shivans in the first place) is by knocking out the Lucifer. It's the only way out.
And yet, without Alpha One, the GTVA would have lost the war. Isn't he/she/it a factor?
-
That's a possible problem with the theory.
-
That's a possible problem with the theory.
Okay, so we admit that Alpha One pretty much won the Great War by him/her/itself. Now lets see...
During the second incursion, did the GTVA have the ability to breach the shields (NOT go around them via subspace)? If not, why didn't the Shivans send two or three more Lucifers?
-
In this theory, they continued to attack in FS1 because the way you prove your cooperative chops (once you've been xenocidal enough to draw the Shivans in the first place) is by knocking out the Lucifer. It's the only way out.
And yet, without Alpha One, the GTVA would have lost the war. Isn't he/she/it a factor?
No.
That's a possible problem with the theory.
Not at all.
Why would it be? Any pilot could have flown in that spot.
Alpha 1 did not win the Great War (or the Second Incursion) by his/her self. This is an illusion. Play on Insane, check out how many times you die.
-
That's a possible problem with the theory.
Okay, so we admit that Alpha One pretty much won the Great War by him/her/itself. Now lets see...
During the second incursion, did the GTVA have the ability to breach the shields (NOT go around them via subspace)? If not, why didn't the Shivans send two or three more Lucifers?
Because they could be easily destroyed in Subspace.
-
Were it not for the ancients black box, I don't think intel would ever have had the bottle to send anyone after the lucifer when it jumps.
Or the inclination, now I think about it though. Whether the GTA knew about the shields failing in subspace or not i'd like the think they'd try and throw everything they could at the Lucifer before it jumped out to Sol.
-
The big thing was the subspace tracking. The GTA/PVE knew their own shields(borrowed from Shivan tech) didn't work in subspace, so I wouldn't be surprised if they'd figured the same might be true for the Lucifer, but without knowing about subspace tracking, it would be useless conjecture.
What that says about the Ancients seems kind of sad, though. The tracking part was probably simple enough for the race that built massive subspace portals and conquered multiple galaxies, but somehow they never figured out the 'shields go away' part until they had apparently lost almost their entire empire. :P
No. Because the Ancients would have taken out the Terrans and Vasudans just as they did many other species.
Whatever their motives were, the Ancients did help the Vasudans, or at least it's strongly suggested in the FSRef Bible. If nothing else, we know the Ancients and Vasudans co-existed at some point(Khonsu II, Heir to the Dynasty of Ten Thousand Years), and the Vasudans are still here, so the Ancients aren't necessarily as bloodthirsty as they made themselves out to be.
You'd also think there'd be some note in their history if the Vasudans were one of the species 'subdued' by the Ancients. PeopleBeings may forget the good things done for them, but not likely the bad.
-
Quote from: General Battuta on March 11, 2010, 01:11:24 pm
No. Because the Ancients would have taken out the Terrans and Vasudans just as they did many other species.
Whatever their motives were, the Ancients did help the Vasudans, or at least it's strongly suggested in the FSRef Bible. If nothing else, we know the Ancients and Vasudans co-existed at some point(Khonsu II, Heir to the Dynasty of Ten Thousand Years), and the Vasudans are still here, so the Ancients aren't necessarily as bloodthirsty as they made themselves out to be.
You'd also think there'd be some note in their history if the Vasudans were one of the species 'subdued' by the Ancients. PeopleBeings may forget the good things done for them, but not likely the bad.
the ancient monologues state that whenever they met a civilization, they either subdued it or crushed it. most likely they saw the vasudans and the vasudans said, "hey, sup, wanna be friends?" and the ancients said, "sure, grab a brew and lets party!"
"i know that if not for the shivans, they would have perished long before. without the shivans, someone would have discovered them in their infancy, and eliminated them, just like they have eliminated countless others before. the shivans ae the great destroyers, but they are also the great destroyers. thats why when we moved into space, that's why there was noone powerdul enough to kill us. our turn had merely come."
unless... durring the T-V war, certain people (freemaosons/etc) fabricated the shivans so the gta and pvn could end the war neither wanted to fight anymore without looking weak
-
I'm well aware of all the stuff about Ancient/Vasudan interaction, but frankly knowing the Ancients it was probably more like 'disregard' or 'enslave' than 'assist'.
-
For all we know, the Vasudans weren't doing much more than hunting food with sharpened sticks at that time. The Ancients presumably didn't even give them the time of day.
-
Quite.
-
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ancients#Relationship_to_the_Vasudans (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ancients#Relationship_to_the_Vasudans)
The existence of a relationship between the Ancients and the Vasudans is based on compelling evidence, including what nearly amounts to a canon confirmation by Volition. The written language of the Ancients is similar to that of the Vasudans (FreeSpace Reference Bible cutscene "Act 3 Misc 2A"). The same cutscene refers to how "this lends credence to Vasudan legends about their ancestry".
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ancients#FreeSpace_Reference_Bible_on_the_Ancients (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ancients#FreeSpace_Reference_Bible_on_the_Ancients)
It is suspected that the Vasudans may have actually been visited long ago in their past by another race, simply called 'the Ancients'. Not much is known about this race, but from archaeological digs, it seems that they originated from a system nearby to Vasuda Prime. Since it is unlikely that Vasuda Prime could have sustained a primitive race for long enough to develop space travel, it is not unfeasible that 'the Ancients' may have helped Vasudan culture develop enough to allow them to survive.
-
It's an interesting theory but, again, knowing the Ancients probably falls under the 'enslave' category.
-
Of course, the other thought might be that since they were so close to the Ancients' home system(i.e. early in their empire building), perhaps the Ancients weren't quite so full of themselves at the time.
Maybe they helped them, then later ignored them, or perhaps it was a sort of semi-distant 'grandfathered' relationship; "Yeah, we crushed these other primitives, but those Vasudan guys are alright". Self-centric racism certainly doesn't have to be logically consistent.
-
No. Because the Ancients would have taken out the Terrans and Vasudans just as they did many other species.
Not if the Shivies bombed them back to stone age, but not to extinction.
Yes we do: the Terrans and Vasudans. When they clearly could have.
No conclusive proof of that. We have no idea if the shiveis would have pushed further from Capella. You cannot say "they left us live" as if it's some sort of undenaible fact. It's not.
In this theory, they continued to attack in FS1 because the way you prove your cooperative chops (once you've been xenocidal enough to draw the Shivans in the first place) is by knocking out the Lucifer. It's the only way out.
Then they're not nurturing cooperation, but nurturing pure survival.
It doesn't matter how much two species cooperate, if they don't have the technology necessary to defeat the shivans, they're dead.
Yeah, the shivans are utter bastards.
We might have fought a war with the vasudans, but at least we talked to them before we started shooting.
-
That's what caused it in the first place. Silly dodgy Vasudan language which ironically helped decode some ancient eulogy.
All the Zods where ever good for was crashing on Altair 4 or wherever it was and being all 'blah blah blah we found a message'.
-
Here's a question: Is there evidence that the Shivans were even attacking during the second incursion? It seems silly, especially if you consider that the NTF opened the Knossoss. Is the NTF responsible for the Second Shivan Incursion? Thats what I want to know.
-
Quite possibly. Remember that the FS2 Shivans' first contact with humanity was with the NTC Trinity, not the GTC Vigilant.
Were we not talking about the 'seemingly Always Chaotic Evil/Omnicidal Manic' Shivans, we might be inclined to think that the sudden, 'unprovoked' attack by the original Rakshasa might have been because the NTC Trinity (possibly)attacked the Shivans first(out of surprise/panic at running into them), and without communicating, they have no way of telling NTF from Terran-GTVA.
Why would the Trinity attack? Both the Shivan-alliance concept and ETAK seem to have been top-secret and kept from most of the NTF. Furthermore, the NTC Trinity and Roemig had only defected "ten days ago" when the GTVA stumbled upon them. Roemig could have been a spy/informant prior to that, but still, it seems unlikely he'd be part of the upper echelon of the NTF. Odd that they'd pick such fresh recruits to power up the Knossos, though; perhaps it was because they were expendable?
The Shivans did try to set up a cruiser + containers supply depot by the Knossos, somewhat reminiscent of the fighter repair depot in 'Enter the Dragon', suggesting the Shivans were already planning ahead for an advance, though we can't know from that if they were planning to go beyond Capella.
The Ravana only made itself known by coming to the defense of the cruisers being attacked by the Actium and Lysander, and while it apparently mauled whatever capships we threw at it, it wasn't said to be headed for the node. We could explain that away as the Ravana being the command ship for the Shivans' Nebula battlegroup, and like the NTD Repulse, only to be committed to direct confrontation if absolutely necessary.
The first Sathanas generally only seemed interested in destroying things that got in its way, and the Tatenen which was (arguably) involved in the attack on a Shivan gas mining group. It then headed for the node rather than attack the GTVA destroyers in the Nebula, though that doesn't definitively say anything, either(deliberately ignoring them, or just leaving them, knowing another 80 Sathanes are en route?). It mauled the Phonecia, but that was a physical obstruction to where it was trying to go. In alternate briefings for High Noon(where there are still main beam cannons intact), the Sathanas also "obliterated the line of defense we had established to intercept it", upon reaching Capella. Sounds like they were directly in the way, as well. The second Sathanas seemed much the same.
After that, hard to say. The Colossus and mini-fleet's feint at the Capella-Gamma Draconis node drew a fairly mild response(IIRC, three cruisers and a few wings of fighters), until finally they sent the smallest thing they had that was capable of posing a threat to the Colossus: a Ravana. When that didn't convince the Colly to back off, they had to break a Sathanas off from "superjump" duty to finish things.
They then commenced "a massive attack at the Vega node", which was held off by "the majority of the [Allied] fleet". Cause and effect, or effect and cause? Were the remaining Shivans trying to push through into Vega, or was it a feint of their own? Alternately, was there a massive presence of Allied ships near the Capella-Vega node(knowing the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node was about to be collapsed), leading the Shivans to believe they might be massing to pick up where the Colossus left off?
Interesting that no warships at all were sent to attack the Bastion at the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node, only bombers.
-
Interesting that no warships at all were sent to attack the Bastion at the Capella-Epsilon Pegasi node, only bombers.
lots of bombers... lots and lots and lots of bombers. more bombers you can wave a cyclops torpedo at
-
Honestly, I'm not sure what to think about that. Yes, there were an awful lot of bombers, but I'd think if the Shivans truly understood(and/or cared) about the fact that the GTVA was about to collapse a node to try to cut them off, they'd at least spare a Moloch or even 'just' a Lilith. ~flashes of BP 3.6.10 Forced Entry go here~
I suppose this might be where 'retail engine limitations' and 'ensuring a moderately skilled player can actually win the mission' come in...
-
Honestly, I'm not sure what to think about that. Yes, there were an awful lot of bombers, but I'd think if the Shivans truly understood(and/or cared) about the fact that the GTVA was about to collapse a node to try to cut them off, they'd at least spare a Moloch or even 'just' a Lilith. ~flashes of BP 3.6.10 Forced Entry go here~
I suppose this might be where 'retail engine limitations' and 'ensuring a moderately skilled player can actually win the mission' come in...
Maybe the Shivans wanted the node closed off so we couldn't bother them anymore. That brings up another question though: does a supernova collapse all the nodes that were originally around that star? Beyond Gamma Drac, anyway, all we found were Knossos portals (one to the nebula, and one from the nebula), but there could be more nodes elsewhere.
-
Maybe the Shivans wanted the node closed off so we couldn't bother them anymore.
Shivan "Commander" :They blew up another one of our superships! we dont wanna play anymore, blow up that star!
-
Maybe the Shivans wanted the node closed off so we couldn't bother them anymore.
Shivan "Commander" :They blew up another one of our superships! we dont wanna play anymore, blow up that star!
I was thinking more along the lines of: "These annoying a**holes have bugged us for the last time. Seal off the system!"
Of course, if they wanted to seal off a node so we couldn't bother them anymore, they could've sealed off Gamma Draconis from the nebula. Perhaps a "higher" role is being fulfilled. Kind of makes me think about Q putting humanity on trial... Maybe the GTVA isn't mature enough to really explore the galaxy and the rest of the universe? *shrug*
-
Maybe the Shivans wanted the node closed off so we couldn't bother them anymore. That brings up another question though: does a supernova collapse all the nodes that were originally around that star? Beyond Gamma Drac, anyway, all we found were Knossos portals (one to the nebula, and one from the nebula), but there could be more nodes elsewhere.
There's no canon evidence stating that a star going supernova would automatically collapse all of the system's nodes. A neutron star or black hole still retains a substantial amount of mass, so intrasystem jumps should still be possible within the system; one would think that that would be enough to maintain the original intersystem nodes as well. I could definitely see the positions of those nodes shifting around somewhat, though.
-
Capella is unlikely to go either of those routes, as it's of insufficent mass. There's still no reason to believe that a white dwarf is insufficent, though.
-
Well, in reality it's four stars doin' a crazy dance. In FS2 it seems to be one of the rarer G2V types, and it doesn't have the mass to supernova at all, so god knows what it'll end up as after the Shivans are done with it.
-
Capella is unlikely to go either of those routes, as it's of insufficent mass. There's still no reason to believe that a white dwarf is insufficent, though.
Do we even know the size and mass of FS2's Capella sun?
I don't think so...
-
I think NGTM-1R's right, you can get size and mass pretty clearly just from its luminosity and the fact that it has habitable planets.
-
Well, :V: made Capella something other than what it is in real life, so they were free to assign whatever constraints they wanted to the star. However you can look at the star in the cutscene and in missions and get a fair idea of its properties (basically it looks like a G2V.)
-
...is this another case where I posted something, deleted it five seconds later because I didn't feel like it was worth posting, and yet somehow managed to get it replied to anyway? Because I seem to have a talent for that. :p
-
Now I look like a prat! :(
-
I'd merge a new thread in to cover, but that unfortunately sorts things by post time. Let's try this instead...
/me made an inane comment about :v: Not Doing the Research
/me replied as follows:
Well, :V: made Capella something other than what it is in real life, so they were free to assign whatever constraints they wanted to the star. However you can look at the star in the cutscene and in missions and get a fair idea of its properties (basically it looks like a G2V.)
There we go. :p
-
can we agree at least that the supernova was artificially created? i mean, being a space-faring civilization, the GTVA wold probably have noticed if a star was about to go supernova and start evacuating people earlier. also, the supernova did coincide with the sathanas's fleet's arrival and increased subspace emmissions from aforementioned fleet.
another thing, a white dwarf can go supernova if its a binary star and sucks up enough matter from its neighboring star. after it gets aproxamatly 1.5 solar masses, it goes KABLOOIE! but this is probably not the case
-
another thing, a white dwarf can go supernova if its a binary star and sucks up enough matter from its neighboring star. after it gets aproxamatly 1.5 solar masses, it goes KABLOOIE! but this is probably not the case
That's a different type of supernova than the one depicted.
-
another thing, a white dwarf can go supernova if its a binary star and sucks up enough matter from its neighboring star. after it gets aproxamatly 1.5 solar masses, it goes KABLOOIE! but this is probably not the case
That's a different type of supernova than the one depicted.
Yeah. Capella was an artificially induced type II supernova, while what you're talking about, Paladin, is a type I supernova. Totally different. Capella A, being a fairly average-sized (okay, about 12x the Sun's radius and 2.7x Sun's mass) yellow star, isn't naturally capable of either. However, Capella B is about the same size as Capella A, and could potentially induce a supernova if the two were to mingle a little too closely, which they might, considering the fact that they orbit only 100 million km away from each other. The second pair of stars in the Capella system are just a couple brown dwarfs orbiting A and B at a distance of about 10,000 AU.
Of course, in-game stars aren't the same as real stars. [V] didn't really check their stars to make sure they're depicted correctly. I've noticed that the mediavps, however, are trying to fix that with their backgrounds. They got Ross 128 right, anyway (small red star, great lighting for taking on the remnants of the Lucifer's armada).
-
The Capella system depicted in FS is almost certainly not Capella IRL. My contrived explanation is that it could be renamed or something.
-
The Capella system depicted in FS is almost certainly not Capella IRL. My contrived explanation is that it could be renamed or something.
If Sol is meant to be our Sol, why wouldn't Capella likewise be our Capella? :p It's far simpler to assume that :v: didn't know/care what sort of setup Capella was supposed to have, and just went with something that looked cool.
-
Eh, that works too.
-
Since they went with what looks cool, then we cannot really know if fluff-wise, the Capella in FS2 was big enough to go supernova naturally...
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capella_(star)
None of the stars in the Capella system would likely be of sufficient mass to retain anything after a supernova, and the detonation would have obliterated anything else in the system.
-
Since they went with what looks cool, then we cannot really know if fluff-wise, the Capella in FS2 was big enough to go supernova naturally...
In the absence of a direct contradictory element of actual gameplay, the cutscenes must be assumed valid representations of the universe.
-
Nope.
Nothing must be assumed.
Especially not cutscenes. Weren't they outsourced or something? Remember Hades in the intro?
We do NOT know the size of Capella, nor what type of star it is. In-game color means nothing, since it's unlikely [V] bothered with that. Wikipedia entries mean nothing for the same reason.
-
If the shivans know humans and vasudans aren't a hive mind, if they know we don't naturally communicate in the EM spectrum - why ignore our attempts at communication, and why try to kill every last one of us? Isn't the military only a small percentage of the entire population?
Is it "ignoring" if the communication isn't recognized as such? Someone could pulse me Morse code (forget language barriers for a second), in microwaves or low end infrared, and I wouldnt even notice them doing it. Why? Because my species doesn't communicate via EM. Shivans don't communicate by sound patterns. "we come in peace" would literally be interpereted by them as noise.
-
Nope.
Nothing must be assumed.
In that case everything is lies and therefore I can reject your statement and be as right as you could ever hope to be regardless.
Especially not cutscenes. Weren't they outsourced or something? Remember Hades in the intro?
Radical concept: the ingame sun of Capella which appears in quite a few missions ALSO seems to be a G2V. Game and cutscenes agree.
We do NOT know the size of Capella, nor what type of star it is. In-game color means nothing, since it's unlikely [V] bothered with that. Wikipedia entries mean nothing for the same reason.
So basically, you're saying that because it doesn't fit with your worldview, we must reject all canonical evidence of any level validity and remove or lack thereof from :v:.
Because you don't like it. Or because **** knows why you want to reject it, I'm just guessing here.
Either way, it doesn't make a lick of sense, so I mock your efforts to reject canon.
-
In that case everything is lies and therefore I can reject your statement and be as right as you could ever hope to be regardless.
Reductio Ad Absurdum .. .you love it so much you can just as well put it in your signature.
Either way, it doesn't make a lick of sense, so I mock your efforts to reject canon.
Mock it all you want, color is no indication of [V]'s intent. They aren't astronomers.
The Capella in-game may be yellow, but we don't know what that means.
You cannot directly correlate to reality. Half of thing don't act in reality the way they do in FS...
I also wonder.
Which version of the Mentu is canon? With a beam cannon or without one?
-
Reductio Ad Absurdum .. .you love it so much you can just as well put it in your signature.
Absurdity is always ascendant dealing with you, so I just sort of make the assumption that we're going to end up at Reductio Ad Absurdum eventually. I decided to cut out the middleman.
Mock it all you want, color is no indication of [V]'s intent. They aren't astronomers.
They may not be astronomers, but I think the highest level of astronomy knowledge we can call on here in this thread is "ungifted amateur" and yet we still knew. You cannot reasonably dismiss out of hand the possiblity that nobody in group of somewhat intelligent people did not know. For that matter, you can't dismiss out of hand the possiblity that, being somewhat good writers, they didn't look it up to ensure a level of authenicity.
But more to the point, you're assuming you can read :v:'s mind and say "they didn't mean this!" without any evidence. Both the game and the cutscene match so I think somebody gave a specific instruction for a yellow star, therefore the color choice was intentional on some level.
And I think it is intentional. I think they meant for Capella to be unable to go supernova naturally.
Because it makes the Shivans damn scary.
Prove me wrong.
The Capella in-game may be yellow, but we don't know what that means.
I think we do. All you have is denialism; I have a compelling storytelling reason why :v: could have wanted a sun that would not naturally explode.
You cannot directly correlate to reality. Half of thing don't act in reality the way they do in FS...
Do you have a point, or are you grasping at straws? We have no reason to believe that supernova mechanics are different in the FS universe. In the absence of a reason to believe otherwise, the null hypothesis holds: things work the same.
I also wonder.
Which version of the Mentu is canon? With a beam cannon or without one?
Gameplay trumps fluff. This is a game; gameplay is Primary Source.
-
Just a little note: we can't tell the class as detailedly as "G2V" just off of in-game Capella's color. You need color and size to make a determination like that—and we don't have any reference for in-game Capella's size. With just color, we can only tell so far as a G-type star. It might have been said before, but real Capella A is a G8III yellow giant—likely an average-sized white star on it's way to becoming a red giant.
It seems there are two possibilities here. Either [V] knew what they were doing with making in-game Capella yellow, or they just made it yellow to seem more like our Sun, to give the player a sense of "this is home" and make it more tragic when it's destroyed. Or it could be both. Having a high opinion of [V], I'd personally like to think it was both. Capella seems to be the perfect candidate story-wise to be destroyed by the Shivans. I think NGTM is right—having a star of insufficient mass go supernova makes the Shivans damn scary, and could be important to whatever vision [V] might have had to complete the story before it was all thrown out the window.
-
"Real Capella" is no such thing - it's two binary pairs (one of which is the G8III you described.)
-
"Real Capella" is no such thing - it's two binary pairs (one of which is the G8III you described.)
I said "real Capella A", with the 'A' at the end referring to the main component of the first binary system (the G8III), the brightest star of the system. The smaller component of the first binary system is another yellow giant, and the second binary system (to form a quaternary system) is a pair of brown dwarfs orbiting the first binary system at a distance of 10,000 AU.
-
You're right, I just missed the A.
-
Absurdity is always ascendant dealing with you, so I just sort of make the assumption that we're going to end up at Reductio Ad Absurdum eventually. I decided to cut out the middleman.
This again?
I see you decided to cut out commons sense, civility and your brain.
They may not be astronomers, but I think the highest level of astronomy knowledge we can call on here in this thread is "ungifted amateur" and yet we still knew. You cannot reasonably dismiss out of hand the possiblity that nobody in group of somewhat intelligent people did not know. For that matter, you can't dismiss out of hand the possiblity that, being somewhat good writers, they didn't look it up to ensure a level of authenicity.
But more to the point, you're assuming you can read :v:'s mind and say "they didn't mean this!" without any evidence. Both the game and the cutscene match so I think somebody gave a specific instruction for a yellow star, therefore the color choice was intentional on some level.
And I think it is intentional. I think they meant for Capella to be unable to go supernova naturally.
Because it makes the Shivans damn scary.
Prove me wrong.
Actually, it's you who are making a claim that they msut have planned it, so it's your job to prove your claim.
Good luck with that.
I think we do. All you have is denialism; I have a compelling storytelling reason why :v: could have wanted a sun that would not naturally explode.
The reason is as compelling as one wants it to be. There can be numerous reason why the sun would not naturally explode and multiple reasons why it would.
One can always find reasons. Without confirmation, they mean nothing.
I could argue that they wanted the sun to be able to blow up naturally, to keep the shivans power levels in a more believable level. Or for some other reason.
But it's pointless to argue it as the "truth" as neither you or I know what the truth is.
Do you have a point, or are you grasping at straws? We have no reason to believe that supernova mechanics are different in the FS universe. In the absence of a reason to believe otherwise, the null hypothesis holds: things work the same.
You mean like lasers, subspace, gravity, inertia, friction in space, etc...?
Again, you're inventing some rules for yourself. Rules that don't exist in reality.
I also wonder.
Which version of the Mentu is canon? With a beam cannon or without one?
Gameplay trumps fluff. This is a game; gameplay is Primary Source.
So sez you. Maybe you're right. But there's no hard rule that gamepaly trupms fluff. See?
Again, you're taking something that isn't definite, as a definite law.
-
Actually, it's you who are making a claim that they msut have planned it, so it's your job to prove your claim.
Good luck with that.
The Law of Conservation of Detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail)
A yellow sun was specified. This means, more likely than not, someone had a reason. If a detail makes it consistantly onto the screen, in something made on a budget and a time limit, more than likely somebody had a reason.
The reason is as compelling as one wants it to be.
Not really. (See below.) Unless you're again inadvertantly admitting your immunity to logic as you have in the past.
There can be numerous reason why the sun would not naturally explode and multiple reasons why it would.
There is no reason for a star of Capella's apparent size and spectral type to supernova under natural conditions. At all. You betray your ignorance.
One can always find reasons. Without confirmation, they mean nothing.
There are grades of reason: ability to fit with the tone and facts of the game, for example. We're searching for a particular flavor of reason, one that enhances the story the FreeSpace 2 is trying to tell. I have presented such a thing, because I think we can all agree that FS2 was set up to present the Shivans as Kicking Unholy Amounts of Ass.
I could argue that they wanted the sun to be able to blow up naturally, to keep the shivans power levels in a more believable level. Or for some other reason.
Show of hands, please. Who thinks :v: cared about making the Shivans "believeable" in FS2?
I mean, it's not like they're not already busting down the door to the repository of all physics knowledge, using the textbooks for toiletpaper, and then burning the place to the ground. If :v: cared in the slightest for believeablity, we wouldn't be talking about induced supernovas.
And since we ARE talking about induced supernovas, just as icing on the cake, the simplest way to trigger one (interrupting the flow of energy from the core of the star outward) wouldn't actually give a damn about star spectral type or mass.
But it's pointless to argue it as the "truth" as neither you or I know what the truth is.
But I don't care about the truth here. I've already stated that; I'm here for not the truth but the probable truth, the reason, the object, that bests fits the evidence and tone of the situation being discussed. I believe I have it. You have yet to present any evidence that sways me from this posistion, or for that matter to even present a viewpoint of your own besides denying I am correct.
That is, frankly, pure trolling. If you don't have a viewpoint besides denial, get out of the freaking argument.
You mean like lasers, subspace, gravity, inertia, friction in space, etc...?
Again, you're inventing some rules for yourself. Rules that don't exist in reality.
On the contrary, I'm citing a fundemental law of good storytelling. Unless the story says otherwise directly, things should work in a way the audience will be familar with. This is a key element in invoking willing suspension of disbelief by making the story more familar and hence more "real" to them.
So sez you. Maybe you're right. But there's no hard rule that gamepaly trupms fluff. See?
Again, you're taking something that isn't definite, as a definite law.
Okay, present to me a reason why gameplay should not trump fluff for an actual game.
You do have one, right?
-
The Law of Conservation of Detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail)
A yellow sun was specified. This means, more likely than not, someone had a reason. If a detail makes it consistantly onto the screen, in something made on a budget and a time limit, more than likely somebody had a reason.
That is no law. And you cannot know for sure it's being used here.
Reason? There's ALWAYS A reason. Maybe the FREDer that made the first mission in Capella used a yellow sun, and other just followed suit. Maybe the FREDer just likes yellow. I don't know.
There can be numerous reason why the sun would not naturally explode and multiple reasons why it would.
There is no reason for a star of Capella's apparent size and spectral type to supernova under natural conditions. At all. You betray your ignorance. [/quote]
*Sigh* Clearly I'll have to spell it for you.
There are reason both for and against why a mission designer could choose one or another (sun that can go nova naturally and sun that can't).
I was not describing the phisical process of a star going nova, but rather the process of design choice
There are grades of reason: ability to fit with the tone and facts of the game, for example. We're searching for a particular flavor of reason, one that enhances the story the FreeSpace 2 is trying to tell. I have presented such a thing, because I think we can all agree that FS2 was set up to present the Shivans as Kicking Unholy Amounts of Ass.
Everyone's got their own idea of what exactly the tone is. Everyone's got their own idea of how powerful the shivans are or should appear.
your reasoning is no more or less correct than anyone elses.
Show of hands, please. Who thinks :v: cared about making the Shivans "believeable" in FS2?
Show of hands is irrelevant. This is no popularity contest.
Writers don't change the story or characters just because of show of hands.
But I don't care about the truth here. I've already stated that; I'm here for not the truth but the probable truth, the reason, the object, that bests fits the evidence and tone of the situation being discussed. I believe I have it. You have yet to present any evidence that sways me from this posistion, or for that matter to even present a viewpoint of your own besides denying I am correct.
And you're the sole and designeted aribiter of that probabiltiy I wager?
Probable truth? By whose standards?
The evidence is the same for you and me, but we draw different conclusions from it. the tone is subjective to a point. Well, most of what you say is subjective to a point anyway.
You have yet to present any evidence to sway me from MY position.
Why can't you just accept the fact that we have no idea what [V] intended with the Capella sun, instead of trying to push your own theories as "more right than anyone elses"
That is, frankly, pure trolling. If you don't have a viewpoint besides denial, get out of the freaking argument.
No, the only troll here is you. Which you prove again and again by deliberate ad hominems and use of agressive vocabulary.
Okay, present to me a reason why gameplay should not trump fluff for an actual game.
You do have one, right?
Do you have a opposite one?
-
Why can't you just accept the fact that we have no idea what [V] intended with the Capella sun, instead of trying to push your own theories as "more right than anyone elses"
Why can't you just accept the fact that some people like to theorize? Or did you just not read the title of this thread? This thread is for theories about Shivans. That's the whole point of this thread. We don't know what [V] intended, but we find it damn fun to make our own guesses based on the evidence provided in the canon, and to wage war between theories, pointing out flaws in others' and upholding the strength of our own. I guess speculation just doesn't do it for you. If that's the case, the door out of the thread is to your right; you may use it.
-
Why can't you just accept the fact that some people like to theorize? Or did you just not read the title of this thread? This thread is for theories about Shivans. That's the whole point of this thread. We don't know what [V] intended, but we find it damn fun to make our own guesses based on the evidence provided in the canon, and to wage war between theories, pointing out flaws in others' and upholding the strength of our own. I guess speculation just doesn't do it for you. If that's the case, the door out of the thread is to your right; you may use it.
Theorizing is perfectly fine.
As long as you're not pushy about your theory - a very important difference you seem to miss.
Now, if we're done with this dick waving contest, mayhaps things can continue in a calmer and more civilized fashion...
-
TrashMan, the only one I see acting in an uncivilized fashion here is you. NGTM-1R has presented numerous justifications for his statements, yet all I've seen in your responses is the equivalent of the five-year-old's "I know you are, but what am I?" If this back-and-forth keeps up, I'm stepping in and locking the thread, and I'll make sure that someone higher up than me knows why it was locked.
-
Actually, I'm not ready to drop the hammer on TrashMan here.
Let's just lock the damn thing.
-
With all due respect, I'm getting tired of this.
Every time there's an interesting topic, some guys start an argument over the size of their respective penises and then it gets locked.
Why?
-
Nature of the beast, people don't want to back down, it gets personal. Happens to everyone, most definitely including myself.
-
Truth, sometimes it happens to me too.
But "Trashman vs. NGTM-1R" seems to be a serial topiclocking event around here. When this happens on every topic you enjoy, and even some you don't, you begin to feel a bit frustrated.
Take this one for example: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67857.180 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67857.180)
Or this one. It was a gem, I really enjoyed it: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68147.40 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68147.40)
And it seems this has been going on for a while now.
-
Since this seems to have meandered over to discussion on the nature of the argument itself, instead of the original topic, I think I'll take Battuta's cue and just lock it.