[IronBeer]

Did we ever run across any intelligent species other than the Vasudans? What were the circumstances that caused the T-V War? These questions matter if we are to try and divine our standing in the Shivans' eyes.

Without a definitive answer from [V], I am of the stance that the Shivans simply destroy and are the Preservers only of themselves. Speculation by Alpha 1 and Petrarch at the end of each respective storyline, while food for thought, does not count as hard evidence. At the moment, signs point to the Shivans having very large-scale goals, above and beyond the destruction of humanity. But with no real information about those goals (everybody has heard the "sign of a larger problem" quote, but that doesn't really tell us a whole lot), I'm simply defaulting the Shivans to "enemy" status.... However, I am open to persuasion.

[TrashMan]

You don't preserve diversity by wiping out entire civilizations.

If those civilizations are wiping out other civilizations? Yes you do.

No you don't. There's no way you can justify killing off an ENTIRE species.

Also, if you later end up killing the very same "baby species" you were supposedly protecting...what the difference then?

[Snail]

Trimming the grass.

[General Battuta]

You don't preserve diversity by wiping out entire civilizations.

If those civilizations are wiping out other civilizations? Yes you do.

No you don't. There's no way you can justify killing off an ENTIRE species.

Also, if you later end up killing the very same "baby species" you were supposedly protecting...what the difference then?

See, these are all moral objections. Very human, very subjective. I bet you can justify killing off an entire species: if they were trying to kill you off.

And the difference is, you kill off the species that are a threat to other species. The cooperative species get to live.

In fact the Shivans even provide incentive for that cooperation.

[Mongoose]

1. Right of might.

Which is no real right

Try telling that to the guy pointing a tank barrel down your throat.

[TrashMan]

See, these are all moral objections. Very human, very subjective. I bet you can justify killing off an entire species: if they were trying to kill you off.

Only if every last member of the species is a bloodthirsty warmonger.
Which is how likely exactly?

Pulverize the military. Blast a species infrastructure, so they'll not be able to bother anyone for hunderds of years.

And the difference is, you kill off the species that are a threat to other species. The cooperative species get to live.
In fact the Shivans even provide incentive for that cooperation.

How do you know cooperative species get to live?
No proof of that.

[General Battuta]

That's the central tenet of this theory, TrashMan. It's an explanation for Shivan behavior that fits the observed facts.

The Shivans did not try to annihilate the GTVA in FS2. They did quite the opposite.

[SpardaSon21]

There is always the possibility a conquering species decides to grow up and stop subjugating.  That happened once that we know of when the Terrans and Vasudans banded together to fight the Shivans.  What if another race has just conquered, and not exterminated or enslaved, just made the conquered second-class citizens?  Should they be exterminated by the Shivans?  What about the members of the subjugated races living on the worlds the Shivans destroy?  Are they are their race just collateral damage?

[Gamma_Draconis]

Hm, so if we assume that the Shivan spared the GTVA on the basis that they are cooperative then perhaps Volition would bring the Shivan back after the GTVA reestablishes contact with a hostile Earth.

[TrashMan]

That's the central tenet of this theory, TrashMan. It's an explanation for Shivan behavior that fits the observed facts.

The Shivans did not try to annihilate the GTVA in FS2. They did quite the opposite.

A lot of theories fit those facts.

Have you forgotten that humans and vasudans did cooperate during FS1? Shivans saw it. Did they stop? Nope - they vent straight to Vasuda Prime and then to Earth.

FS2 - they didn't exactly stop either. The Sathanases didn't engage directly, they gathered around the sun. But the other ships attacked everything - including the civilians. They didn't make a big effort to push further, but so what? That doesn't mean they wouldn't have done that. Maybe they were just systematic - completely clean out one system before moving on.

And another thing. For a supposedly very inteligent and advanced species, shivans act incredibly dumb. If they deem themselves worthy to pass judgment on all the other species they encounter, then they should at least inform themselves about those said species first. To say they do not know terrans and vasudans don't have a hive mind shows an utter lack of basic intelligence gathering on their part. Have they been wiping out civilizations on a whim?

[General Battuta]

I don't agree with the fundamental tenets that lead to your arguments. They're anthropocentric and narrow.

[TrashMan]

Anthropocentric? Not really.
Narrow? Definately not.

There's nothing human centric about my views, except maybe the morality aspect, but me being a human being, my own morality is the only one I CAN use, like it or not.And since I belive my morlaity is utterly correct on a universal scale....

But that's beside the point.

The shivans being the "Great Perservers" or the "Great Destroyers" is just a view on them we get from some people in the game. the ancient monologues  are very spiritually influenced. The ending monologues are musings from in-game characters, who have access to no more data than we do regarding shivans.

My questions are simple:

If the shivans know humans and vasudans aren't a hive mind, if they know we don't naturally communicate in the EM spectrum - why ignore our attempts at communication, and why try to kill every last one of us? Isn't the military only a small percentage of the entire population?

If they don't know, then why do they commit to act of genocide while knowing so little?

To me, it seems like the shivans are some automated cyborg defenders gone beserk.

[General Battuta]

Perhaps they believe in collective responsibility.

You're trying to apply human morality to something not human.

[TrashMan]

What about logic? Or is there "human logic" that doesn't work for shivies?

[QuantumDelta]

What about logic? Or is there "human logic" that doesn't work for shivies?

The same logic with different points of origin, and different input methods will yield different answers.
This is what I was trying to explain to someone else the other day.
Just because it's the only possible way you see it being 'sensible' or 'logical' or 'humane' or even 'explainable', doesn't mean you're either correct or close.

[OllieG]

If the shivans know humans and vasudans aren't a hive mind, if they know we don't naturally communicate in the EM spectrum - why ignore our attempts at communication, and why try to kill every last one of us? Isn't the military only a small percentage of the entire population?

If they don't know, then why do they commit to act of genocide while knowing so little?

To me, it seems like the shivans are some automated cyborg defenders gone beserk.

I tried to explain this a page back but I guess it got glossed over - it's very possible that the Shivans don't have a concept of individuals.  It's a huge conceptual leap from group consciousness to individual consciousness.  As other posters have pointed out, a hive mind is likely to operate with a set of morals based on collective responsibility, collective identity and collective action.  If the Shivans think every race they encounter is a collective consciousness, killing a whole species might be the only way to go about it - after all, if there's one collective intelligence controlling billions of creatures and the intelligence is dangerous, the sensible thing to do is to wipe them all out.  Shivans might not differentiate between warriors and civilians - again, it's likely the don't make the distinction in their own society.  Furthermore, the Shivans aren't attacking us because we pose a real threat now, they're attacking because we will pose a threat further along in our evolution - setting us back a few hundred years would be a waste of time and resources.  Since they want to get rid of our expansionist culture in general, the only reason to show us limited mercy would be concern for the individual well-being of the humans alive at any given time, which the Shivans haven't displayed at any time. 

It's very possible that the Shivans don't regard communication outside the EM spectrum as communication at all.  Even if they can detect our chirping and mumbling, it might be so different from their concept of communication that it wouldn't register as such.  If you were about to douse a nest of hornets with insecticide and they let off pheromones pleading for mercy, would you notice or care? 

Bosch was probably the first instance where the Shivans realized that we were capable of communication - all of their anomalous actions occurred after that point.  Either they decide to exterminate us even more thoroughly by destroying our stars (and had to stop after 1 because the nodes were sealed) or they decided to make a big move out of our arm of the galaxy by opening a special node to god-knows-where.

[TrashMan]

This is what I was trying to explain to someone else the other day.
Just because it's the only possible way you see it being 'sensible' or 'logical' or 'humane' or even 'explainable', doesn't mean you're either correct or close.

Let me put it this way:

If the shivies are well informed about us, then they are xenohobes and bastards

If they are not, then they are idiots who make grand decisions with little research beforehand.

This is how I see things and this how I will continue to see things, unless something official from [V] comes along to change that. So let's politely agree to disagree and move along..

[Timerlane]

Hmm... ~wishes there were an amused, raised eyebrow emoticon to put here~

Perhaps meeting Bosch, and the presumably completely different reaction of the majority of the Iceni's crew, is what made them realize that Terrans must not be of a hive mind?

I still tend to default to the idea that unless the Shivans have been around for a ridiculously long time(and witnessed the countless tides of civilizations rise, war and fall, and decided they had to do something about it), they're more likely acting out of self(-species/collective) preservation, than any kind of 'external' philosophical purpose(though it's hard to know for sure; obviously, we know they have very advanced technology and understanding of subspace, so there's no reason to think they can't have developed higher philosophical leanings).

The 'hive-mind as their only understanding in relation to others' context definitely nicely explains the seeming disproportionate retribution aspect of the Shivans. Fits nicely into my thinking that the GTI('behind the scenes', as it were) may have ticked off the Shivans, resulting in the "Great War".

Here's an odd thought: Maybe the Hammer of Light actually did somehow ally themselves with the Shivans, or at least, by their very different behavior(for one, apparently refusing to defend themselves against the Shivans, as demonstrated with the Ramses) convinced them that the HoL was a different entity from the Vasudans proper, and(among other things, perhaps) were 'given' plans or a prototype of what became(for the Shivans) the Nahema, to reverse engineer, and give them a technological boost against their mutual enemies. The HoL took most of their secrets to the grave, but the PVE was able to recover some of the prototype Sekhmets, and noted that they had some commonality with Shivan technology.

If the FS2 Shivans were of a different 'hive', it's possible the Trinity may have panicked and fired first, and that was the trigger that initiated the "Second Shivan Incursion".

Whether truly the case or not, still very interesting...

[Paladin327]

If the shivans know humans and vasudans aren't a hive mind, if they know we don't naturally communicate in the EM spectrum - why ignore our attempts at communication, and why try to kill every last one of us? Isn't the military only a small percentage of the entire population?

For all we know, "we come in peace" translates into "Your mother is an Altarian Sea Cow" in shivanese

[NGTM-1R]

And the difference is, you kill off the species that are a threat to other species. The cooperative species get to live.

Putting everything else aside about Trash arguments, he does have a central point that should not be overlooked.

Preserving species you will later destroy is simply wasteful. If the Shivans were really in it to promote diversity, then an armed peacekeeper role and not a mysterious cosmic destroyer one is called for, and they need to intervene much earlier. It's not about morality; it's about efficency.