Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dilmah G on June 06, 2010, 10:34:15 am
-
Not really, parents are out of the question since she hates them both (for some reason I can't grasp), and the school counselor is well... The school counselor. Though he might possibly be the only person who can make sure she sees a psych.
-
I suppose it revolves in part about how old she is, parents would probably be the best bet, she may hate them, but that doesn't mean the feeling is mutual, and, if she's quite young, they are probably the best people to decide how to progress.
School Counsellors are a second option, because they tend to be obliged to report incidents like this, which could lead to investigations of home-life, which usually ends up doing more damage to the family than good, but if my child was self harming, to my mind, the first step is dealing with that, she could despise me for it for the rest of her life, but at least she'd have a rest of her life in which to despise me.
-
Not really, parents are out of the question since she hates them both (for some reason I can't grasp), and the school counselor is well... The school counselor. Though he might possibly be the only person who can make sure she sees a psych.
Is there a JCC or something near you? Unfortunately, many parents see them selves as de facto & de jure go-to's for their children and don't want to see a psychologist for x, y, or z reason. Short of her going off to college and them helping her, I'm not sure what else could help her.
-
Personally, I think the first stop should be the parents, otherwise Dilmah is leaving the decision in his own hands, which is certainly not his responsibility beyond affection for his sister, obviously though, I have very little idea of his family life and this may not be at all possible.
-
Well my mum is one of those "I don't want a psych to pump my little girl full of drugs/Marge Simpson" types (and before the abuse is hurled, I am not one of those types), or at least she was when my sister asked to see a psych in seventh grade apparently. I'll see if I can get her a doctor's appointment myself if I have to, but I think I *should* be able to convince mum. IIRC, it was my sister who ended up deciding not to show up to the doctor last time.
-
There's a difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. Psychiatrists are bad people.
-
There's a difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. Psychiatrists are bad people.
Why's that?
-
Mostly because phsychiatrists tend to approach most situations with 'I know something is wrong, it's my job to find out what', which means they will always find a problem, even where none exists, whereas phsychologists are more analytical, they don't go looking for problems, they simpy try to 'decode' the mentality of the person and find out why they feel as they do, the actual cure is more in the manner of letting someone see themselves than assuming you know the patient better than they do.
-
Also, psychiatrists have gone to medical school. Psychologists have not.
-
There's a difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. Psychiatrists are bad people.
Also about $50k
-
There is also a huge difference between:
1) Psychiatrists, medical practitioners
2) Analytical/clinical psychologists, devotees of a vaguely literary and scientifically questionable school of therapy
3) Research psychologists, behavioral scientists who actually do science
-
I've got a bunch of homework due tomorrow and Tuesday!!!!!!
-
Mostly because phsychiatrists tend to approach most situations with 'I know something is wrong, it's my job to find out what', which means they will always find a problem, even where none exists
So basically they just want an excuse to **** up your life with behavioral meds?
(I really, really don't like the idea of a "medicine" that's supposed to "cure" your personality)
-
Mostly because phsychiatrists tend to approach most situations with 'I know something is wrong, it's my job to find out what', which means they will always find a problem, even where none exists
So basically they just want an excuse to **** up your life with behavioral meds?
(I really, really don't like the idea of a "medicine" that's supposed to "cure" your personality)
There are definitely some disorders that require medicine.
-
I still don't like behavioral meds.
-
Yes, but the problem is that many Doctors feel compelled to prescribe something, even if nothing is needed, and part of me is concerned that this is a very indirect form of 'pushing' by pharamcutical companies, I do believe that Doctors are encouraged to prescribe drugs. In the UK it's even got to the point where Doctors prescribe placebos under fake names, purely because people expect to be given some kind of magic pill to fix their problem, when the true source of the problem is far more often social or familial.
-
I still don't like behavioral meds.
Yes, but the problem is that many Doctors feel compelled to prescribe something, even if nothing is needed, and part of me is concerned that this is a very indirect form of 'pushing' by pharamcutical companies, I do believe that Doctors are encouraged to prescribe drugs. In the UK it's even got to the point where Doctors prescribe placebos under fake names, purely because people expect to be given some kind of magic pill to fix their problem, when the true source of the problem is far more often social or familial.
Read this. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68604.msg1354991#msg1354991)
-
You have a Facebook account, Dekker? So do I. :)
Look for James Slasher Dobbs.
-
I still don't like behavioral meds.
Yes, but the problem is that many Doctors feel compelled to prescribe something, even if nothing is needed, and part of me is concerned that this is a very indirect form of 'pushing' by pharamcutical companies, I do believe that Doctors are encouraged to prescribe drugs. In the UK it's even got to the point where Doctors prescribe placebos under fake names, purely because people expect to be given some kind of magic pill to fix their problem, when the true source of the problem is far more often social or familial.
Read this. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68604.msg1354991#msg1354991)
I've read it, but a very small proportion of cases are as extreme as the ones described there. I'm not saying that no cases whatsoever require medication, I'm saying that the willingness to give medication in far less extreme cases should be more moderated, people walk into a Doctors office expecting to leave with a prescription for something, and often all these drugs do is hide the problem, not solve it, that's why coming off of anti-depressents can be such a risky business which requires monitoring, but they've actually fixed nothing, they've just locked it away in a cupboard until, with luck, the mind can look at those feelings more objectively, but there's really no being sure without withdrawing the medication and hoping for the best, many Doctors won't risk that.
So yes, I'll agree these medications are needed in extreme phsychiatric cases, but they are only a stop-gap, the real challenge is dealing with the source of the problem rather than the effect of it.
-
I still don't like behavioral meds.
Yes, but the problem is that many Doctors feel compelled to prescribe something, even if nothing is needed, and part of me is concerned that this is a very indirect form of 'pushing' by pharamcutical companies, I do believe that Doctors are encouraged to prescribe drugs. In the UK it's even got to the point where Doctors prescribe placebos under fake names, purely because people expect to be given some kind of magic pill to fix their problem, when the true source of the problem is far more often social or familial.
Read this. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68604.msg1354991#msg1354991)
I've read it, but a very small proportion of cases are as extreme as the ones described there.
Cite please. How do you know that?
I'm not saying that no cases whatsoever require medication, I'm saying that the willingness to give medication in far less extreme cases should be more moderated, people walk into a Doctors office expecting to leave with a prescription for something, and often all these drugs do is hide the problem, not solve it,
Cite the frequency of this behavior, please. Why was the author unable to find any such examples?
that's why coming off of anti-depressents can be such a risky business which requires monitoring, but they've actually fixed nothing, they've just locked it away in a cupboard until, with luck, the mind can look at those feelings more objectively, but there's really no being sure without withdrawing the medication and hoping for the best, many Doctors won't risk that.
Cite data on patients coming off antidepressants. The reaction to treatment discontinuation varies highly between individuals. Moreover, your lay explanation for negative discontinuation experiences (the issues haven't been dealt with) is not supported by data, which implicates neurotransmitter mechanisms as much as any psychological factor.
So yes, I'll agree these medications are needed in extreme phsychiatric cases, but they are only a stop-gap, the real challenge is dealing with the source of the problem rather than the effect of it.
The assumption that the source of psychiatric problems is purely psychological is deeply problematic. Many psychological disorders are biologically rooted and require treatment like any other disease.
Please cite data on the frequency of disorders which can purely be attributed to psychological factors and experience full relapse once medication is withdrawn.
-
Just finished a ten hour drive back to Nebraska.
-
Quote from: Flipside on 06 June 2010, 20:25:08
Quote from: General Battuta on 06 June 2010, 20:17:15
Quote from: Snail on 06 June 2010, 20:14:51
I still don't like behavioral meds.
Quote from: Flipside on 06 June 2010, 20:16:05
Yes, but the problem is that many Doctors feel compelled to prescribe something, even if nothing is needed, and part of me is concerned that this is a very indirect form of 'pushing' by pharamcutical companies, I do believe that Doctors are encouraged to prescribe drugs. In the UK it's even got to the point where Doctors prescribe placebos under fake names, purely because people expect to be given some kind of magic pill to fix their problem, when the true source of the problem is far more often social or familial.
Read this.
I've read it, but a very small proportion of cases are as extreme as the ones described there.
Cite please. How do you know that?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/oxford/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8283000/8283270.stm
Mental Health issues are extremely commonplace, and yet very, very few of them lead to self-harming or dangerously obsessive behaviour.
I'm not saying that no cases whatsoever require medication, I'm saying that the willingness to give medication in far less extreme cases should be more moderated, people walk into a Doctors office expecting to leave with a prescription for something, and often all these drugs do is hide the problem, not solve it,
Cite the frequency of this behavior, please. Why was the author unable to find any such examples?
Because the Author wasn't looking for them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3579635.stm - Even Doctors feel they are prescribing too many pills.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3434486.ece - Data review in the Times finds little difference in effect between drugs and placebos.
that's why coming off of anti-depressents can be such a risky business which requires monitoring, but they've actually fixed nothing, they've just locked it away in a cupboard until, with luck, the mind can look at those feelings more objectively, but there's really no being sure without withdrawing the medication and hoping for the best, many Doctors won't risk that.
Cite data on patients coming off antidepressants. The reaction to treatment discontinuation varies highly between individuals. Moreover, your lay explanation for negative discontinuation experiences (the issues haven't been dealt with) is not supported by data, which implicates neurotransmitter mechanisms as much as any psychological factor.
Personal experience. Oh, and http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2007/05/09/withdrawal-from-antidepressants/
So yes, I'll agree these medications are needed in extreme phsychiatric cases, but they are only a stop-gap, the real challenge is dealing with the source of the problem rather than the effect of it.
The assumption that the source of psychiatric problems is purely psychological is deeply problematic. Many psychological disorders are biologically rooted and require treatment like any other disease.
I'm not saying they aren't, what I'm saying is that the first and foremost treatment should not neccessarily be medication, and in many cases, nor should the long-term treatment be such.
Please cite data on the frequency of disorders which can purely be attributed to psychological factors and experience full relapse once medication is withdrawn.
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/
Most importantly in this case:
Depression Information that Helps
If you or someone you know is suffering from clinical depression, you've probably read and heard many unhelpful myths and half truths, causing confusion and feelings of helplessness. Statements such as "it's in your genes", "it's a chemical imbalance" or worst of all "once you've got depression, you've got it for life." None of these are true. (3)
"Depression cannot be described any longer as a simple disorder of the brain"
Institute of Psychiatry (UK)
Most drug treatments assume this, mainly because they are so poor in preventing relapse. Yet there are other therapies for depression, that act just as quickly, and are much more effective at beating depression for good. By understanding the cycle of depression, it's possible to recognize what causes the symptoms of depression before they appear. With the right approach, you can beat depression for good.
In other words, assuming that taking a pill will fix everything is the wrong attitude to take.
-
Those citations do not address the issue at hand. You need material from peer reviewed generals with statistics like ANOVAs and preferably neuroimaging/analysis data as well.
I will specifically address a misconception you have with regards to depression.
Depression Information that Helps
If you or someone you know is suffering from clinical depression, you've probably read and heard many unhelpful myths and half truths, causing confusion and feelings of helplessness. Statements such as "it's in your genes", "it's a chemical imbalance" or worst of all "once you've got depression, you've got it for life." None of these are true. (3)
"Depression cannot be described any longer as a simple disorder of the brain"
Institute of Psychiatry (UK)
Most drug treatments assume this, mainly because they are so poor in preventing relapse. Yet there are other therapies for depression, that act just as quickly, and are much more effective at beating depression for good. By understanding the cycle of depression, it's possible to recognize what causes the symptoms of depression before they appear. With the right approach, you can beat depression for good.
Depression is caused by an interaction of life events and biological factors.
When a stressful life event (death of a loved one, for instance) occurs, genes determine the probability that this event will transform into a major depressive episode.
Medication is a critical element in treating a large number of psychiatric disorders and it's not entirely clear that everyone who needs it is getting it.
Because the Author wasn't looking for them.
If you read the linked article, why did you not realize that these were exactly the cases the author set out to find?
How could the author not have been looking for them when she explicitly set out to look for them?
Explain.
-
The SSRI issue is an interesting one because nobody is sure how SSRIs work or even if they do. It's not clear that they're a great treatment for depression.
-
(A) Stop moving the Goalposts.
(B) Do your own research, I'm not some kind of online Google.
You asked for citation, you got it, now it's not 'good enough'....?
-
I don't know anything about medicine or statistics. I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one? There are a lot of myths and prejudices regarding them, and I used to adhere to most of them. But if I hadn't seen a team formed by a psychologist and a psychiatrist years ago, I would be dead by now (yeah, I had a lot of problems in my head :lol: , but most of them are cured now).
These specialist not only gave me medication for a brief period, but also helped me solve my immediate problems and taught me how to deal with them more effectively in the long run. Hell! even to this day I'm still making progress in my OCD, and it's been a lot of time since the days when I was under treatment.
Just my two cents.
By the way, Dilmah G, may I respectfully ask what is exactly the problem your sister has? At least where I live, even people who would be considered "normal" (whatever that means) see psychologists regularly (don't ask me why), so I can't see what could go wrong if you tried.
In my experience, you have to look for a psychologist that your sister feels comfortable with, not just any psychologist.
-
The original post was not moved over (still new at this global moderator stuff, sorry), but here it is:
IAZ, put some shoes on dammit! :D
I think I saw scars on my sister's wrists. Asking about it resulted in a fight more or less between us, and now I'm clueless on what to do. The fact she's asked to see a psych before makes me think there might be something to it.
-
I don't know anything about medicine or statistics. I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one? There are a lot of myths and prejudices regarding them, and I used to adhere to most of them. But if I hadn't seen a team formed by a psychologist and a psychiatrist years ago, I would be dead by now (yeah, I had a lot of problems in my head :lol: , but most of them are cured now).
These specialist not only gave me medication for a brief period, but also helped me solve my immediate problems and taught me how to deal with them more effectively in the long run. Hell! even to this day I'm still making progress in my OCD, and it's been a lot of time since the days when I was under treatment.
Just my two cents.
By the way, Dilmah G, may I respectfully ask what is exactly the problem your sister has? At least where I live, even people who would be considered "normal" (whatever that means) see psychologists regularly (don't ask me why), so I can't see what could go wrong if you tried.
In my experience, you have to look for a psychologist that your sister feels comfortable with, not just any psychologist.
I've dealt extensively with phsychologists for my own depression and worked in dealing with young people with social/phsychological problems, I myself was on anti-depressents for 4 years and only came off them recently, it was not a pleasant experience.
And your case actually emphasises my point, that whilst the chemical treatment may work in the short term, what really allowed you to cope with the problem was counselling and support, not pills.
-
The original post was not moved over (still new at this global moderator stuff, sorry)
:lol: Yeah, I was absolutely sure you weren't a Global Moderator before. Congratulations. ;)
And your case actually emphasises my point, that whilst the chemical treatment may work in the short term, what really allowed you to cope with the problem was counselling and support, not pills.
I never doubted it. But pills were absolutely necessary in the first phase of my treatment.
Ultimately, if my specialist says I have to take my pills, chances are I have to take my pills, even if I don't like them.
-
I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one?
I've been treated by at least eleven.
-
And your case actually emphasises my point, that whilst the chemical treatment may work in the short term, what really allowed you to cope with the problem was counselling and support, not pills.
I never doubted it. But pills were absolutely necessary in the first phase of my treatment.
Ultimately, if my specialist says I have to take my pills, chances are I have to take my pills, even if I don't like them.
As I've repeatedly maintained, I'm not against the idea of chemical treatment when needed, but I have large concerns that in a lot of cases, chemical treatment is being prescribed purely because it's expected, not because it's needed.
-
I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one?
I've been treated by at least eleven.
I was treated by around five before I found the ones who cured me. That's why I said, in my experience, you have to look for an specialist that you feel comfortable with, one that works in your particular case.
And your case actually emphasises my point, that whilst the chemical treatment may work in the short term, what really allowed you to cope with the problem was counselling and support, not pills.
I never doubted it. But pills were absolutely necessary in the first phase of my treatment.
Ultimately, if my specialist says I have to take my pills, chances are I have to take my pills, even if I don't like them.
As I've repeatedly maintained, I'm not against the idea of chemical treatment when needed, but I have large concerns that in a lot of cases, chemical treatment is being prescribed purely because it's expected, not because it's needed.
Fair enough then. :yes:
-
I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one?
I've been treated by at least eleven.
i probably should see than many. i grew up getting all kinds of treatment, pills, weekly therapy. problem was when i turned 18 all treatment stopped. i was fine for awhile, but these days im completely bat****.
-
I literally ran out of doctors within a reasonable distance.
-
I literally ran out of doctors within a reasonable distance.
You ran out of doctors after only eleven? :lol:
Do you live in a small city? Is your mobility restrained in some way? Sorry, I don't intend to offend you, but it's just so strange that there are so few specialist in a "reasonable distance". :confused:
-
The way insurance works in the US, you can only see doctors within your "network."
That is, doctors who choose to take your insurance payments. I have military insurance and don't live near any bases.
-
The way insurance works in the US, you can only see doctors within your "network."
That is, doctors who choose to take your insurance payments.
Oh! Yes, I forgot about that. Well, I suppose you can always pay them from your pockets if you have no other options.
I have military insurance and don't live near any bases.
Ugh, that sucks. I used to have coverage under a plan sponsored by the Air Force union, but I finally decided to quit from it, because it was mediocre at best. I payed them the monthly fee, and when I really needed something, it was never included in the plan. Bunch of thieves :doubt: . Well, at least now I get discounts in the fee of an university under the sphere of influence of the Ministry of Defence, so they can now repay me for all those years with books and other material. :lol:
EDIT: No, just checked, and it's directly dependant on the Air Force, which means it depends on the Ministry of Defence, and is under the sphere of influence of the Ministry of Education too.
-
The way insurance works in the US, you can only see doctors within your "network."
That is, doctors who choose to take your insurance payments.
Oh! Yes, I forgot about that. Well, I suppose you can always pay them from your pockets if you have no other options.
:lol:
-
Well my mum is one of those "I don't want a psych to pump my little girl full of drugs/Marge Simpson" types (and before the abuse is hurled, I am not one of those types), or at least she was when my sister asked to see a psych in seventh grade apparently.
is your mum a scientologist?
-
A Sri Lankan Buddhist. I put Sri Lankan in there because SL Buddhists are the superficial kind. :P
But yes, she is renowned for her backwards logic in the family. Which is rather unfortunate as my sister confides in my mum.
-
Drugs probably wouldn't help your sister as much as just having someone to confide in would. Which, a psychologist might be good for. Sometimes they're competent and give good advice.
-
Well my sister also abuses the hell out of my mum (which I step in and stop whenever I'm around, much to her disapproval), so I'm not sure how much confiding goes on these days.
-
There was a time in the very recent past when I would have scoffed at the very idea of psychiatry in general, even if it was to my own detriment. Recent proceedings that I'm not entirely sure I want to elaborate on in this particular setting have rendered that viewpoint pretty much obsolete. There are professionals out there who know what your brain's up to better than you yourself do, and there are ways of getting help if you need it, whether via therapy, medication, or some combination of the two. Dilmah, if there's any possible way you can think of, talk to someone about what's going on.
-
i missed the original post.. but is your sister self harming?
in fact
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines borderline personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[2][16]
A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image and affects, as well as marked impulsivity, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
3. Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, eating disorders, binge eating, substance abuse, reckless driving). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5
5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats or self-injuring behavior such as cutting, interfering with the healing of scars (excoriation) or picking at oneself.
6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
7. Chronic feelings of emptiness
8. Inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder
if she is a strong match for this then i would suggest finding a therapist that knows what the STEPPS program is (And the said therapist will most likely refer to the condition as Emotional Intensity Disorder). your sister also needs to be ready to change.
-
She admitted to self-harming tonight.
And she matches >5 of those. (9,8,7,6,5,3). My mum says she's got a doc for tomorrow, so I assume she'll be referred to a psych sometime during the appointment.
-
At the age of 7 my son developed a habit of running around in circles why screaming his head off, this would continue for several hours.
In the end I got fed up of his behavior and said to him if you don't stop it I will nail your other foot to the floor.
-
:blah:
That was in poor taste. I've heard it before, and I thought it was in poor taste then too. But really; in a thread about someone who is genuinely hurting and in need of help?
-
Enough teenagers self harm that it makes me wonder why it's not considered a normal coping mechanism.
-
Enough teenagers self harm that it makes me wonder why it's not considered a normal coping mechanism.
yea probably, but i wouldn't go so far as calling it normal. though it does seem to have become more common in the last few years (i blame the emo movement).
-
She admitted to self-harming tonight.
And she matches >5 of those. (9,8,7,6,5,3). My mum says she's got a doc for tomorrow, so I assume she'll be referred to a psych sometime during the appointment.
Based on what you said about her both confiding in and abusing your mother, I would say that
2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
Might be close as well. :nervous:
I hope she can get and receive the help she needs.
-
Avoid the borderline label if you can. It only makes finding a good doctor harder.
-
i only have all of the symptoms of that particular disorder. but getting help is damn near impossible without insurance or doing something rather drastic.
-
/me head-desks.
My mum knew my sister was self harming the entire year, and didn't tell me, or my father, or anyone about it. And she believed all the half-assed lies my sister told her to cover up everything. ****, I'm mad.
-
self harming is harmless. i find simple things like gravity (that gash i got falling down the stairs at my sister's place a month ago still hasnt healed 100%), or work related forces such as swinging a hammer/axe/pic, or screw ups with the soldering iron to cause way bigger wounds on accident and with greater frequency than actually trying to hurt yourself. then i started drawing pictures with blood. like pentagrams and band logos and stick figures having sex.
-
Just in case it's not clear, ignore Nuke.
-
Got it, man.
-
are you serious, pain is the new orgasm :D