[Nuclear1]

Just finished a ten hour drive back to Nebraska.

[Flipside]

Quote from: Flipside on 06 June 2010, 20:25:08
Quote from: General Battuta on 06 June 2010, 20:17:15
Quote from: Snail on 06 June 2010, 20:14:51
I still don't like behavioral meds.

Quote from: Flipside on 06 June 2010, 20:16:05
Yes, but the problem is that many Doctors feel compelled to prescribe something, even if nothing is needed, and part of me is concerned that this is a very indirect form of 'pushing' by pharamcutical companies, I do believe that Doctors are encouraged to prescribe drugs. In the UK it's even got to the point where Doctors prescribe placebos under fake names, purely because people expect to be given some kind of magic pill to fix their problem, when the true source of the problem is far more often social or familial.

Read this.



I've read it, but a very small proportion of cases are as extreme as the ones described there.

Cite please. How do you know that?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/oxford/hi/people_and_places/newsid_8283000/8283270.stm

Mental Health issues are extremely commonplace, and yet very, very few of them lead to self-harming or dangerously obsessive behaviour.

I'm not saying that no cases whatsoever require medication, I'm saying that the willingness to give medication in far less extreme cases should be more moderated, people walk into a Doctors office expecting to leave with a prescription for something, and often all these drugs do is hide the problem, not solve it,

Cite the frequency of this behavior, please. Why was the author unable to find any such examples?

Because the Author wasn't looking for them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3579635.stm - Even Doctors feel they are prescribing too many pills.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3434486.ece - Data review in the Times finds little difference in effect between drugs and placebos.

that's why coming off of anti-depressents can be such a risky business which requires monitoring, but they've actually fixed nothing, they've just locked it away in a cupboard until, with luck, the mind can look at those feelings more objectively, but there's really no being sure without withdrawing the medication and hoping for the best, many Doctors won't risk that.

Cite data on patients coming off antidepressants. The reaction to treatment discontinuation varies highly between individuals. Moreover, your lay explanation for negative discontinuation experiences (the issues haven't been dealt with) is not supported by data, which implicates neurotransmitter mechanisms as much as any psychological factor.

Personal experience. Oh, and http://psychcentral.com/blog/archives/2007/05/09/withdrawal-from-antidepressants/

So yes, I'll agree these medications are needed in extreme phsychiatric cases, but they are only a stop-gap, the real challenge is dealing with the source of the problem rather than the effect of it.

The assumption that the source of psychiatric problems is purely psychological is deeply problematic. Many psychological disorders are biologically rooted and require treatment like any other disease.

I'm not saying they aren't, what I'm saying is that the first and foremost treatment should not neccessarily be medication, and in many cases, nor should the long-term treatment be such.

Please cite data on the frequency of disorders which can purely be attributed to psychological factors and experience full relapse once medication is withdrawn.

http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/

Most importantly in this case:

Depression Information that Helps

If you or someone you know is suffering from clinical depression, you've probably read and heard many unhelpful myths and half truths, causing confusion and feelings of helplessness. Statements such as "it's in your genes", "it's a chemical imbalance" or worst of all "once you've got depression, you've got it for life." None of these are true. (3)

"Depression cannot be described any longer as a simple disorder of the brain"

Institute of Psychiatry (UK)

Most drug treatments assume this, mainly because they are so poor in preventing relapse. Yet there are other therapies for depression, that act just as quickly, and are much more effective at beating depression for good. By understanding the cycle of depression, it's possible to recognize what causes the symptoms of depression before they appear. With the right approach, you can beat depression for good.

In other words, assuming that taking a pill will fix everything is the wrong attitude to take.

[General Battuta]

Those citations do not address the issue at hand. You need material from peer reviewed generals with statistics like ANOVAs and preferably neuroimaging/analysis data as well.

I will specifically address a misconception you have with regards to depression.

Depression Information that Helps

If you or someone you know is suffering from clinical depression, you've probably read and heard many unhelpful myths and half truths, causing confusion and feelings of helplessness. Statements such as "it's in your genes", "it's a chemical imbalance" or worst of all "once you've got depression, you've got it for life." None of these are true. (3)

"Depression cannot be described any longer as a simple disorder of the brain"

Institute of Psychiatry (UK)

Most drug treatments assume this, mainly because they are so poor in preventing relapse. Yet there are other therapies for depression, that act just as quickly, and are much more effective at beating depression for good. By understanding the cycle of depression, it's possible to recognize what causes the symptoms of depression before they appear. With the right approach, you can beat depression for good.

Depression is caused by an interaction of life events and biological factors.

When a stressful life event (death of a loved one, for instance) occurs, genes determine the probability that this event will transform into a major depressive episode.

Medication is a critical element in treating a large number of psychiatric disorders and it's not entirely clear that everyone who needs it is getting it.

Because the Author wasn't looking for them.

If you read the linked article, why did you not realize that these were exactly the cases the author set out to find?

How could the author not have been looking for them when she explicitly set out to look for them?

Explain.

[General Battuta]

The SSRI issue is an interesting one because nobody is sure how SSRIs work or even if they do. It's not clear that they're a great treatment for depression.

[Flipside]

(A) Stop moving the Goalposts.
(B) Do your own research, I'm not some kind of online Google.

You asked for citation, you got it, now it's not 'good enough'....?

[el_magnifico]

I don't know anything about medicine or statistics. I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one? There are a lot of myths and prejudices regarding them, and I used to adhere to most of them. But if I hadn't seen a team formed by a psychologist and a psychiatrist years ago, I would be dead by now (yeah, I had a lot of problems in my head  , but most of them are cured now).
These specialist not only gave me medication for a brief period, but also helped me solve my immediate problems and taught me how to deal with them more effectively in the long run. Hell! even to this day I'm still making progress in my OCD, and it's been a lot of time since the days when I was under treatment.

Just my two cents.

By the way, Dilmah G, may I respectfully ask what is exactly the problem your sister has? At least where I live, even people who would be considered "normal" (whatever that means) see psychologists regularly (don't ask me why), so I can't see what could go wrong if you tried.
In my experience, you have to look for a psychologist that your sister feels comfortable with, not just any psychologist.

[The E]

The original post was not moved over (still new at this global moderator stuff, sorry), but here it is:

IAZ, put some shoes on dammit! 


I think I saw scars on my sister's wrists. Asking about it resulted in a fight more or less between us, and now I'm clueless on what to do. The fact she's asked to see a psych before makes me think there might be something to it.

[Flipside]

I don't know anything about medicine or statistics. I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one? There are a lot of myths and prejudices regarding them, and I used to adhere to most of them. But if I hadn't seen a team formed by a psychologist and a psychiatrist years ago, I would be dead by now (yeah, I had a lot of problems in my head  , but most of them are cured now).
These specialist not only gave me medication for a brief period, but also helped me solve my immediate problems and taught me how to deal with them more effectively in the long run. Hell! even to this day I'm still making progress in my OCD, and it's been a lot of time since the days when I was under treatment.

Just my two cents.

By the way, Dilmah G, may I respectfully ask what is exactly the problem your sister has? At least where I live, even people who would be considered "normal" (whatever that means) see psychologists regularly (don't ask me why), so I can't see what could go wrong if you tried.
In my experience, you have to look for a psychologist that your sister feels comfortable with, not just any psychologist.

I've dealt extensively with phsychologists for my own depression and worked in dealing with young people with social/phsychological problems, I myself was on anti-depressents for 4 years and only came off them recently, it was not a pleasant experience.

And your case actually emphasises my point, that whilst the chemical treatment may work in the short term, what really allowed you to cope with the problem was counselling and support, not pills.

[el_magnifico]

The original post was not moved over (still new at this global moderator stuff, sorry)

Yeah, I was absolutely sure you weren't a Global Moderator before. Congratulations.

And your case actually emphasises my point, that whilst the chemical treatment may work in the short term, what really allowed you to cope with the problem was counselling and support, not pills.

I never doubted it. But pills were absolutely necessary in the first phase of my treatment.
Ultimately, if my specialist says I have to take my pills, chances are I have to take my pills, even if I don't like them.

[iamzack]

I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one?

I've been treated by at least eleven.

[Flipside]

And your case actually emphasises my point, that whilst the chemical treatment may work in the short term, what really allowed you to cope with the problem was counselling and support, not pills.

I never doubted it. But pills were absolutely necessary in the first phase of my treatment.
Ultimately, if my specialist says I have to take my pills, chances are I have to take my pills, even if I don't like them.

As I've repeatedly maintained, I'm not against the idea of chemical treatment when needed, but I have large concerns that in a lot of cases, chemical treatment is being prescribed purely because it's expected, not because it's needed.

[el_magnifico]

I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one?

I've been treated by at least eleven.

I was treated by around five before I found the ones who cured me. That's why I said, in my experience, you have to look for an specialist that you feel comfortable with, one that works in your particular case.

And your case actually emphasises my point, that whilst the chemical treatment may work in the short term, what really allowed you to cope with the problem was counselling and support, not pills.

I never doubted it. But pills were absolutely necessary in the first phase of my treatment.
Ultimately, if my specialist says I have to take my pills, chances are I have to take my pills, even if I don't like them.

As I've repeatedly maintained, I'm not against the idea of chemical treatment when needed, but I have large concerns that in a lot of cases, chemical treatment is being prescribed purely because it's expected, not because it's needed.

Fair enough then.

[Nuke]

I just want to ask you guys this: How many of those who criticize psychologists or psychiatrists have been treated by one?

I've been treated by at least eleven.

i probably should see than many. i grew up getting all kinds of treatment, pills, weekly therapy. problem was when i turned 18 all treatment stopped. i was fine for awhile, but these days im completely bat****.

[iamzack]

I literally ran out of doctors within a reasonable distance.

[el_magnifico]

I literally ran out of doctors within a reasonable distance.

You ran out of doctors after only eleven?
Do you live in a small city? Is your mobility restrained in some way? Sorry, I don't intend to offend you, but it's just so strange that there are so few specialist in a "reasonable distance".

[iamzack]

The way insurance works in the US, you can only see doctors within your "network."
 That is, doctors who choose to take your insurance payments. I have military insurance and don't live near any bases.

[el_magnifico]

The way insurance works in the US, you can only see doctors within your "network."
 That is, doctors who choose to take your insurance payments.

Oh! Yes, I forgot about that. Well, I suppose you can always pay them from your pockets if you have no other options.

I have military insurance and don't live near any bases.

Ugh, that sucks. I used to have coverage under a plan sponsored by the Air Force union, but I finally decided to quit from it, because it was mediocre at best. I payed them the monthly fee, and when I really needed something, it was never included in the plan. Bunch of thieves . Well, at least now I get discounts in the fee of an university under the sphere of influence of the Ministry of Defence, so they can now repay me for all those years with books and other material.

EDIT: No, just checked, and it's directly dependant on the Air Force, which means it depends on the Ministry of Defence, and is under the sphere of influence of the Ministry of Education too.

[iamzack]

The way insurance works in the US, you can only see doctors within your "network."
 That is, doctors who choose to take your insurance payments.

Oh! Yes, I forgot about that. Well, I suppose you can always pay them from your pockets if you have no other options.

[Bobboau]

Well my mum is one of those "I don't want a psych to pump my little girl full of drugs/Marge Simpson" types (and before the abuse is hurled, I am not one of those types), or at least she was when my sister asked to see a psych in seventh grade apparently.

is your mum a scientologist?

[Dilmah G]

A Sri Lankan Buddhist. I put Sri Lankan in there because SL Buddhists are the superficial kind. 

But yes, she is renowned for her backwards logic in the family. Which is rather unfortunate as my sister confides in my mum.