Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Galemp on June 30, 2010, 04:43:03 pm
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I'm angry as a blob turret gunner about these high-poly fighters not having squadron insignia!
Back in my day, insignia were a feature! They were advertised on the back of the box, and by God, we were glad to have them! What would it mean to join the 107th Ravens if you couldn't see the insignia on the wing of your fighter? We APPRECIATED our logos!
But now you got these newfangled 'high poly' models, and there ain't no squadron insignia! Why, even the good ol' Apollo had its first high-poly model with a squad logo, then some upstart whippersnapper went and 'fixed' it, and them logos are gone! Just who do these young'uns think they are?
By golly, if I don't see some squad logos on the Thoth and Apollo soon, I'm gonna have to take off my belt and teach you kids a lesson!
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Squad logos are fugly and I dont really care that they're gone
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Oh my...
:shaking:
I didn't do it... (I like squad logos!)
*runs*
:warp:
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Squad logos are fugly and I dont really care that they're gone
*goes all Vasudan on Snail* :headz:
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I also like squadron logos, PCS2 should have a tool for adding them, done better than in PCS1 (in which it wasn't very handy and didn't had a proper preview).
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No, seriously guys, squadron logos are horrible and disgusting and should never have been included ever. It's the main reason why FS2 wasn't as good as FS1, because the squadron logos for me completely ruined immersion which was something that FS1 was much better at, IMHO. So really, I dont think they should be included at all anymore, even if there's an option to disable them it means that most people will be using them, so really I think squadron logos should be removed altogether so nobody uses them because thats how I want it and thats the way it should be
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That's only one man opinion.
Toggling them via laucher could be a good idea, but I don't know if it'd be feasible.
Squadron logos are a nice feature, but could use improvements so they won't look like stickers on normalmapped models.
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I'd be cool if we could make them look like they were painted on, instead of a bitmap rendered on top.
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No, seriously guys, squadron logos are horrible and disgusting and should never have been included ever. It's the main reason why FS2 wasn't as good as FS1, because the squadron logos for me completely ruined immersion which was something that FS1 was much better at, IMHO. So really, I dont think they should be included at all anymore, even if there's an option to disable them it means that most people will be using them, so really I think squadron logos should be removed altogether so nobody uses them because thats how I want it and thats the way it should be
Poe's Law in action?
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If there aren't any logos, i'm NEVER playing multiplayer. . . .
Freespace squad logos and pilot pics are what got me started in graphic art.
I absolutely less than three the **** out of them and expect it (as a retail feature) to be included as part of the SCP upgrade process.
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I don't like them at all and don't care that most high-poly models don't have them. Removing them even frees space on the model for modders to add something more interesting, like faction insignia painted directly on the texture, instead of suspended over the model like a cartoon sticker. Forget whether you're in the 107th Ravens; whether you're GTVA or NTF is far more pertinent information to have on the side of your fighter.
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In lieu of insignia support. I expect all future models to come with a nameplate style extra texture that us banner fans can scrawl our "abandon all hope-" style messages on.
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PCS2 should have a tool for adding them, done better than in PCS1 (in which it wasn't very handy and didn't had a proper preview).
And how exactly could it be done better?
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No, seriously guys, squadron logos are horrible and disgusting and should never have been included ever. It's the main reason why FS2 wasn't as good as FS1, because the squadron logos for me completely ruined immersion which was something that FS1 was much better at, IMHO. So really, I dont think they should be included at all anymore, even if there's an option to disable them it means that most people will be using them, so really I think squadron logos should be removed altogether so nobody uses them because thats how I want it and thats the way it should be
Poe's Law in action?
One would hope.
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Well, the idea behind nameplate textures...
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Go on,..........elaborate please
:)
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I'm holding out for the day I can get a pair of tits on my engine.
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In lieu of insignia support. I expect all future models to come with a nameplate style extra texture that us banner fans can scrawl our "abandon all hope-" style messages on.
Good luck reading that on a fighter-size vessel.
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Kiss my buttcheeks :p
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It's a feature, you can add it or not. Personally I don't like them and I would prefer modders to spend more time on bugfixing and making the model work rather than adding those in.
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That's why I'd like a PCS2 function, it'd allow everybody to easly add insygnia.
PCS2 should have a tool for adding them, done better than in PCS1 (in which it wasn't very handy and didn't had a proper preview).
And how exactly could it be done better?
For example, a more intuitive UI and preview on a model would be very helpfull.
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No, seriously guys, squadron logos are horrible and disgusting and should never have been included ever. It's the main reason why FS2 wasn't as good as FS1, because the squadron logos for me completely ruined immersion which was something that FS1 was much better at, IMHO. So really, I dont think they should be included at all anymore, even if there's an option to disable them it means that most people will be using them, so really I think squadron logos should be removed altogether so nobody uses them because thats how I want it and thats the way it should be
Poe's Law in action?
One would hope.
no im being 100% serious because i think theyre very ugly and totaly uneeded and should definately be removed
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Yeah, he's definitely not serious.
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Okay, but srsly now, they do look kind of silly. More like giant 3 meter stickers than painted on insignia. :P
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What exactly is the issue? Are the stickers too perfect, or perhaps have odd lighting responses? I wouldn't mind squadron insignia, but I have long forgotten what they looked like on high poly models.
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What's preventing us from having Orion style nameplates?
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Nothing. Incidentally, that's what insignia are; except that they're not an SCP feature.
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I'm pretty sure that when I fixed the Apollo, I left the squadron logo on the ship
(http://www.ciinet.org/kevin/myimages/squadlogo.png) (http://www.ciinet.org/kevin/myimages/squadlogo.png)
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How did the GTA roundel end up there? That's not where I put it on the texture.
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That texture was in an older version of Twist of Fate. :nervous: I guess I forgot to replace it with Galemp's newer HTL Apollo texture.
EDIT: Image replaced
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Galemp's newer texture isn't the one i was talking about. The roundels on that ship were on different parts of the ship, and they were not stretched like that.
(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3879/apollo.png)
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For example, a more intuitive UI
You're going to have to be more specific than that.
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No, seriously guys, squadron logos are horrible and disgusting and should never have been included ever. It's the main reason why FS2 wasn't as good as FS1, because the squadron logos for me completely ruined immersion which was something that FS1 was much better at, IMHO. So really, I dont think they should be included at all anymore, even if there's an option to disable them it means that most people will be using them, so really I think squadron logos should be removed altogether so nobody uses them because thats how I want it and thats the way it should be
Just because you do not like to have squadron Insignia, doesn't mean that everybody should be deprived of the option to have them on their games. I like the idea of having it as an option in the launcher, so that it leaves it up to the player to decide what he wants. And when it is disabled for you it is disabled in your game, so that if another player has it enabled in multiplayer you don't see his logo if that is what you are complaining about when you say "most people will be using them."
What if some guy in the world said "I think freespace is stupid, nobody should play this game ever" and so Volition said "ok this one guy says he thinks it is stupid lets do something else." :wtf:
Okay, but srsly now, they do look kind of silly. More like giant 3 meter stickers than painted on insignia. :P
Who says they have to be huge? A model can have an insignia that is pretty small, just big enough to be able to see it when you inspect the ship. It can be worked out to be like a texture and shape itself like the hull it sits on so that it isn't a very ugly thing to have. It is more of a neat little feature that says "hey look I am in the 70th blue lions" but not scream it.
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I don't know about other people, but I put squadron insignias on ALL of my fighters/bombers, and I tend to use them in missions I make. Makes everything look better.
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I have to agree that squadron logos when done in a style sympathetic to the texturing of the fighter enhance the look and on human/terran fighters works with the natural human pride in their unit and desire to wear/display their unit's crest as a badge of honour.
No, seriously guys, squadron logos are horrible and disgusting and should never have been included ever. It's the main reason why FS2 wasn't as good as FS1, because the squadron logos for me completely ruined immersion which was something that FS1 was much better at, IMHO. So really, I dont think they should be included at all anymore, even if there's an option to disable them it means that most people will be using them, so really I think squadron logos should be removed altogether so nobody uses them because thats how I want it and thats the way it should be
Just because you do not like to have squadron Insignia, doesn't mean that everybody should be deprived of the option to have them on their games. I like the idea of having it as an option in the launcher, so that it leaves it up to the player to decide what he wants. And when it is disabled for you it is disabled in your game, so that if another player has it enabled in multiplayer you don't see his logo if that is what you are complaining about when you say "most people will be using them."
What if some guy in the world said "I think freespace is stupid, nobody should play this game ever" and so Volition said "ok this one guy says he thinks it is stupid lets do something else." :wtf:
Okay, but srsly now, they do look kind of silly. More like giant 3 meter stickers than painted on insignia. :P
Who says they have to be huge? A model can have an insignia that is pretty small, just big enough to be able to see it when you inspect the ship. It can be worked out to be like a texture and shape itself like the hull it sits on so that it isn't a very ugly thing to have. It is more of a neat little feature that says "hey look I am in the 70th blue lions" but not scream it.
I'm planning on including including squadron logos in the mod I am creating and I know that for the likes of FotG squadron logos painted on fighters are canon for many important groups such as rogue squadron
:edit:
moved my text out of the quote
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(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3879/apollo.png)
I bloody love that fighter.
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Squad badges were kinda a big thing for multi, I did think about chipping this snippet in earlier but eh..
All of the major squads, and most of the minor ones had badges, even some non-competitive squads had badges.
I wish I still had them all :<
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Just because you do not like to have squadron Insignia, doesn't mean that everybody should be deprived of the option to have them on their games. I like the idea of having it as an option in the launcher, so that it leaves it up to the player to decide what he wants. And when it is disabled for you it is disabled in your game, so that if another player has it enabled in multiplayer you don't see his logo if that is what you are complaining about when you say "most people will be using them."
What if some guy in the world said "I think freespace is stupid, nobody should play this game ever" and so Volition said "ok this one guy says he thinks it is stupid lets do something else." :wtf:
I wasn't being serious. :P
That said, I do think squadron logos look a bit too clean and the light doesn't seem to fall on them properly. Other than that I have no problems.
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Please don't troll, Snail.
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For example, a more intuitive UI
You're going to have to be more specific than that.
Check out how PCS1 looked and you'd see that UI would need a complete rework.
Basically, changing it into something understandable and describing how all those fields work and what they really do.
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That said, I do think squadron logos look a bit too clean and the light doesn't seem to fall on them properly.
If lighting doesn't play nice with squadron insignia, that's either an art or an engine bug, and really no reason for disliking them as a feature.
And a feature they are, and a retail feature at that, which means they should definitely be included on all upgrades of retail fighters that had them. Personally, I'd not consider one of those upgraded fighters to be completed if it does not support squadron insignia. At best, it would a very polished WIP.
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Check out how PCS1 looked and you'd see that UI would need a complete rework.
Basically, changing it into something understandable and describing how all those fields work and what they really do.
How exactly do you suggest it be improved?
In order to create insignia, you need to create some uv'd triangles and in order to create triangles you need to create vertices. That's pretty much all the PCS1 insignia ui was.
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Yes, but I wasn't sure which field does what, their layout was confusing and there was no tutorial or documentation (at least I couldn't find any).
I'm not suggesting improving the way it worked, but rather, how it was presented to user.
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That's fine but if you want it to be different you need to provide specifics of how you would like it to behave.
The "default" would be something along the lines of for each insignia you have the LOD, an offset and up to 10 triangles. Each triangle would have three vertices; each vertex would have a 3d vector of its position relative to the offset and u and v coordinates.
There's an explanation of sorts in Bobboau's learn to use PCS (http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/blackwater/fstut/fstut_index01.htm).
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Surely they should just map straight onto the existing UV map of the model?
Thus only requiring the modder to say "Put it here"?
- Decals, not extra geometry. (This also avoid Z-fighting which is a ****ing pain in the proverbial to deal with)
- Do we already have decals? I forget.
For good results it would probably need 4 points on the UV defining each corner of the insignia so it can be suitably sized, rotated and deformed.
- Making the insignia properly 'dirty' is a more difficult proposition.
Less-than-full alpha on the insignia image is a surprisingly good start - I use that a lot at work in a slightly different context.
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There's currently nothing in the code that would allow you to put decals onto the UV map. Right now it's all done as a single polygon just above the surface of the hull. Nameplates are done the same way, but with FRED's texture-replace function instead of a hardcoded pilot-dependent string (for players.)
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Proposal: Decals and Nameplates
props to Tomo for the idea
For some subset of the object's polygons, store an additional set of UV coords. These are the coordinates to be used by the decal texture.
These polygons are then drawn with the following render state info:
- Texture: the nameplate or decal texture
- Texture wrap: Wrap mode for both texture coordinates should be clamp (or possibly clamp to edge); there should be a 1-pixel transparent border*
- Depth: Depth testing enabled, depth function should be "equal", depth mask false (but it doesn't really matter)
- Blending: Blending enabled, alpha-opacity based blending
Because the polygons' vertices are identical to those of the model, there's no need to worry about z-fighting; the depth for the nameplate/decal is exactly the same as the depth for the 'hull' polygons.
*I've never used it, but OpenGL has some texture parameter options relating to a "border", which from my reading of the documentation, would let you control what color stuff is in the repeating portion of the texture (when it's set to not tile)
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^ That should probably go on the SCP board. It's a good request and something I would like to see implemented.
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^ That should probably go on the SCP board.
Done. I'm not sure whether to delete this original post, or what, so I'll let a Mod decide. Sorry for cross-posting! :)