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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: NeoKnight on August 05, 2010, 10:28:45 am

Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NeoKnight on August 05, 2010, 10:28:45 am
Just introduced this to my brother in law last year... he loves it. (He's young-ish). I'm going to show him the basics of modding next week. But more importantly, he has introduced this to our nephews (age 12).

Kudos.  :yes: I think it's vitally important for the long-term sustainability of this community that we strive to introduce FreeSpace to the next generation, kids especially. The original FreeSpace games were rated E, and in my honest opinion, intended for a target audience in a fairly young age range. My younger brother started playing the game when he was six (I'm not kidding), and still loves it. The world of FreeSpace has expanded exponentially since the retail release, and I've always been a little disappointed at how this expansion seems to be aimed towards a much older age group. The fact that we have very few "clean" campaigns out there really puts a limit on the number of people who will play and enjoy FreeSpace, and maybe even become members of the community. To address this issue I once mentioned the idea of adding a censoring feature to the game that could be enabled via the launcher, as I believe this would increase the appeal of the game to more conservative or otherwise young audiences. However, it was implied that having the SCP team devote time and resources to developing such a feature was not in the best interest of the community, so I did not actively pursue the idea. It's still a feature I would like to see added though, so if any people on the source code team are reading this in light of Lucika's recent observations, feel free to consider.  :)
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 10:31:21 am
Just introduced this to my brother in law last year... he loves it. (He's young-ish). I'm going to show him the basics of modding next week. But more importantly, he has introduced this to our nephews (age 12).

Kudos.  :yes: I think it's vitally important for the long-term sustainability of this community that we strive to introduce FreeSpace to the next generation, kids especially. The original FreeSpace games were rated E, and in my honest opinion, intended for a target audience in a fairly young age range. My younger brother started playing the game when he was six (I'm not kidding), and still loves it. The world of FreeSpace has expanded exponentially since the retail release, and I've always been a little disappointed at how this expansion seems to be aimed towards a much older age group. The fact that we have very few "clean" campaigns out there really puts a limit on the number of people who will play and enjoy FreeSpace,

The original campaigns had profanity and the deaths of thousands. I handled them fine as an eleven-year-old. If anything I think most fan-made campaigns (like Derelict)  are considerably cleaner and more gentle than the retail stories.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NeoKnight on August 05, 2010, 10:42:07 am
Just introduced this to my brother in law last year... he loves it. (He's young-ish). I'm going to show him the basics of modding next week. But more importantly, he has introduced this to our nephews (age 12).

Kudos.  :yes: I think it's vitally important for the long-term sustainability of this community that we strive to introduce FreeSpace to the next generation, kids especially. The original FreeSpace games were rated E, and in my honest opinion, intended for a target audience in a fairly young age range. My younger brother started playing the game when he was six (I'm not kidding), and still loves it. The world of FreeSpace has expanded exponentially since the retail release, and I've always been a little disappointed at how this expansion seems to be aimed towards a much older age group. The fact that we have very few "clean" campaigns out there really puts a limit on the number of people who will play and enjoy FreeSpace,

The original campaigns had profanity and the deaths of thousands. I handled them fine as an eleven-year-old. If anything I think most fan-made campaigns (like Derelict)  are considerably cleaner and more gentle than the retail stories.

Yes, the retail campaigns are exactly as you say, but they were still rated E: The violence was bloodless (even hallfight) and the profanity was mild. Quite a contrast from Transcend or any other other campaign that makes good use of a far more liberal vocabulary. Personally I don't mind swearing, but we could open the doors to a lot more people by accommodating for those who do.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 10:43:48 am
I'm...actually not sure I about that. I'm betting it's a concern for a relatively small fraction of the population, no offense.

Besides I think there are far less child-safe things about Transcend than the language!  :shaking:
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NeoKnight on August 05, 2010, 10:57:46 am
I'm...actually not sure I about that. I'm betting it's a concern for a relatively small fraction of the population, no offense.

None taken.  :) You may actually be right about that, and there's really no way we can know. Although I'd feel far more comfortable introducing FreeSpace to many of my friends if there were a censoring feature, I know that the social circles I frequent aren't good representations of the vast majority of people out there. Fact is, we'll never really know if a lack of game censorship is dampening the size of the community unless we...give it a try.  :p
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: mjn.mixael on August 05, 2010, 11:05:40 am
My post is about to go *slightly* off topic..

I don't really know how a censoring feature would work really... but I'm no coder. But censoring rarely get to the heart of the matter and really just prolongs the inevitable... I'm not really for or against a censoring feature BTW.

BUT (the off topic part)... specifically when it comes to profanity, I have noticed that it just isn't well used in many user-made campaigns. It's there because they CAN.. not because it works or makes sense. Battuta, surely YOU have noticed that. In a few of the campaigns I played, the dialogue sounded more like some 15 year olds were writing the lines and were so excited that mom and dad had no idea... just so much unnecessary profanity...

A better fix to the problem would be to encourage use of the language as what it is. A tool for portraying characters, not just casual conversation. I don't really know if that made any sense.. but there's my rant for the day.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 11:13:00 am
I can't speak to most campaigns because I'm afraid I can't immediately recall any specific instances, but I'm sure you might be right.

I know that when I write profanity I try to emulate the peculiarities of soldiers in combat and the actual air combat recordings I've heard. Which, for better worse, are...not very polite. '****' is used as verb, noun, adjective and adverb -
Spoiler:
'****! Get the **** down! Hurry the **** up and shoot that mother****er!'

So believe it or not 'just so much unnecessary profanity' is probably realistic.  :nervous: Doesn't mean it's good, but soldiers swear like Tarantino on a bad day.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NeoKnight on August 05, 2010, 11:17:08 am
Agreed. Beyond the Red Line comes to mind as a good example.  :blah: What we could really use are more clean campaigns in the first place, like Procyon Insurgency. Seriously...that things was a freakin' masterpiece and I didn't hear a single swear word. Campaigns like that might help breathe new life into the community by providing gaming experiences that are acceptable to anyone who wants to play them.

EDIT: This post was in response to mjn.mixael's comment. The Batman just beat me to the "post" button. :P
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 11:21:35 am
Well I think you need to balance the desire to please a very small portion of the population with the desire to actually depict combat pilots under extreme stress. That's what Beyond the Red Line was - though the Diaspora guys say they want to take it down a notch as there was a bit too much 'frak'.

If I were in Transcend I'd have been swearing my head off. If I were in The Procyon Insurgency...well when I hit the'disarm the Saturn' mission I was swearing my head off.  :p
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Mobius on August 05, 2010, 11:42:08 am
As long as I'm in their respective dev teams, all INF/NTV missions will be free from swearing. While this may be a bit unrealistic for those who think that space combat is modern air combat in space, where pilots are free to say whatever trash words they want, I justify it by saying that one of the goals of severe training is keeping pilots educated and follow specific standards. For example, I have specifically stated that all Martian pilots in INFASA are trained to talk politely even if they're going to die, and that will be applied to the EA as well. You can't tolerate swearing when, for example, you're escorting a diplomat who's listening to military transmissions. What kind of reputation would military forces earn?  :wtf:

/OT

As far as I can say, certain projects will be hardly released because of the skeleton crews working on them. The first episode of NTV, just to mention an example, would have been easily released over one year ago, but at the moment of writing it's 30-40% complete (and guess who did that work!  :nervous:). Same thing for INFASA, INF SCP and many campaigns for the FSCRP... basically, circumstances kind of force me to work solo on all projects I joined. Under that point of view, I think I'm unlucky.

Why does that happen? Mostly because of Real LifeTM and lack of dedication, which are equally dangerous to a project. Sometimes, RL can be far more serious than expected, as evidenced by Woomeister's latest issues I actually don't want to discuss with anyone.  :(
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 11:47:19 am
I have no problem with campaigns that want to steer away from obscenity; it's an atmospheric choice and (as you've demonstrated) you can justify it narratively.

But if you're going for the Generation Kill, Hurt Locker, Black Hawk Down atmosphere you've got to look at the language the real-life analogues of your characters use.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NeoKnight on August 05, 2010, 11:48:45 am
Well, if a campaign has objectionable language, it can still please both crowds...or more like, admittedly, probably a very big crowd and then a few other people...by having an optional censoring feature that could be turned on or off, depending on your taste, in the launcher. It's really a win-win. Perfect balance. The only disadvantage is that such a feature would take time to program, and I know that time is a limited resource here at HLP. I'd be willing to help, but as I know less than nothing about programming I'm not sure how valuable my assistance would be...

And I'm now very much looking forward to both Inferno and NTV.  :D Regardless of how realistic swearing or lack thereof may be in the actual FreeSpace universe, I appreciate a clean campaign that I can openly share with other people. Thanks Mobius, and keep up the good work.  :yes:
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 11:50:41 am
Well, I do think there's a moral component to that censorship. I don't know how I'd have felt about a Saving Private Ryan or a Band of Brothers in which nobody swore. It would've felt almost disrespectful to the incredible pressure these people were under - as if we were saying that it was wrong of them to vent their terror and rage even in the middle of combat.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Mobius on August 05, 2010, 11:55:36 am
Thanks. :)
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NeoKnight on August 05, 2010, 11:58:32 am
Well, the morality involved is highly debatable, but that really isn't the point. Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers were both historically based stories honoring real people. FreeSpace is totally fictional, so there's no one but the player to be disrespectful to. And I think it's more disrespectful to that player to have him/her barraged by volleys of needless swearing than to have them offended because none of the pilots match the gung-ho airman stereotype.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 12:01:05 pm
Well, the morality involved is highly debatable, but that really isn't the point. Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers were both historically based stories honoring real people. FreeSpace is totally fictional, so there's no one but the player to be disrespectful to. And I think it's more disrespectful to that player to have him/her barraged by volleys of needless swearing than to have them offended because none of the pilots match the gung-ho airman stereotype.

If the goal is to create a narrative that matches the intensity and veracity of historical events honoring real people, then you have a conflict. I'd say it's also disrespectful to the player to treat them as incapable of hearing words without being affected by them.

I'm guessing you don't like Pulp Fiction very much either.  ;7
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: karajorma on August 05, 2010, 12:12:47 pm
None taken.  :) You may actually be right about that, and there's really no way we can know. Although I'd feel far more comfortable introducing FreeSpace to many of my friends if there were a censoring feature, I know that the social circles I frequent aren't good representations of the vast majority of people out there. Fact is, we'll never really know if a lack of game censorship is dampening the size of the community unless we...give it a try.  :p

Bear in mind that use of tstrings.tbl could allow any non-voice acted campaign to create a censored version in a matter of minutes. You'd simply create another language like #English-Censored and the game would automatically substitute the censored text for the uncensored when you chose that as your language option in the launcher. Of course it would be even better if the launcher offered a censor option which you could set but even there the changes required to the code should be fairly minimal.

Of course we'd need a good method of generating tstrings.tbl for campaigns but I've already posted the idea this thread gave me here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70718.msg1398637#new).
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: mjn.mixael on August 05, 2010, 01:16:49 pm
Quote
But if you're going for the Generation Kill, Hurt Locker, Black Hawk Down atmosphere you've got to look at the language the real-life analogues of your characters use.

See, but that would work.

I guess my test is whether or not I remember the swearing... because if I remember it, it's because it was overused/unnecessarily used/sounded more like a 15 year old's YouTube video.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 01:28:30 pm
Quote
But if you're going for the Generation Kill, Hurt Locker, Black Hawk Down atmosphere you've got to look at the language the real-life analogues of your characters use.

See, but that would work.

I guess my test is whether or not I remember the swearing... because if I remember it, it's because it was overused/unnecessarily used/sounded more like a 15 year old's YouTube video.

I'd probably be all right with a censorship option of the type Kara described, though it wouldn't work for voice acted campaigns.

But bear in mind that a lot of combat soldiers aren't even a decade past your 15 year old's YouTube video.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: mjn.mixael on August 05, 2010, 01:36:39 pm
But there's a difference and I think you would know what I mean if I could more clearly describe it.

And I'm positive you know the difference, if not on a subconscious level, with as much into writing as you are.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 05, 2010, 01:50:48 pm
But there's a difference and I think you would know what I mean if I could more clearly describe it.

And I'm positive you know the difference, if not on a subconscious level, with as much into writing as you are.

I hope so, yeah. Profanity use is something I'm still struggling with, so I don't know if I could confidently say I get it right.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: The E on August 05, 2010, 04:02:27 pm
Personally, I am fundamentally opposed to any form of censorship. Especially censorship by coding. Which is why I'll be fighting any attempt to add a "swear filter" to the engine.

To me, language is neither "good" nor "bad", (although there is "appropriate" and "nonappropriate"), and interfering with the creators vision of how his characters should sound is absolute Anathema. I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: karajorma on August 05, 2010, 04:12:10 pm
My suggestion would be an optional version which the creator themselves would decide to include or not.
Title: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Spoon on August 05, 2010, 05:19:39 pm
I'm with The E on this one
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 06, 2010, 03:01:26 pm
As long as I'm in their respective dev teams, all INF/NTV missions will be free from swearing.

Just for the record, you didn't much care about swearing until Karaj swore at you once on GW, so your opinion is...suspect.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: jr2 on August 06, 2010, 03:17:19 pm
Personally, I am fundamentally opposed to any form of censorship. Especially censorship by coding. Which is why I'll be fighting any attempt to add a "swear filter" to the engine.

To me, language is neither "good" nor "bad", (although there is "appropriate" and "nonappropriate"), and interfering with the creators vision of how his characters should sound is absolute Anathema. I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.

^--  Hmm... I don't feel deprived. I know exactly what you meant to say.  And if I did feel deprived, I would uncheck the censoring option in my HLP profile settings.  I'm for choice in the matter.

Mind you I tolerate swearing just fine.  I went through a year of active duty USMC training (Boot camp, Combat Training, Occupational Specialty school from 8/25/2008 through 7/31/2009 - I'm now in the reserves).  I just prefer not to listen to it if I have the choice, and I try to avoid using it (although I do slip up).
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Dilmah G on August 06, 2010, 07:36:52 pm
I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.
I'd personally disagree with this, from my experience working with little kids. There are a few that lack the maturity to really use it properly/without offending people unintentionally. You save a lot of parents a lot of trouble by not exposing profanity to their children, I'd imagine. :P

But if guys want a profanity sensor or whatever, I can understand why.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NeoKnight on August 06, 2010, 10:59:03 pm
Firstly, apologies to Lucika for steering his thread off topic and thanks to whichever moderator split the thread.

Now, I'd like to emphasize again that the type of censoring function I'm in favor of would be...ahem...optional. Battuta expressed a concern that it would be disrespectful to the player to treat them as incapable of hearing words without being affected by them. There would be no disrespect directed towards the player because they would in no way be forced to undergo a censored gaming experience. I acknowledge that the majority of players are probably jaded to the level of indifference, and thus the censorer would be inactive by default. If the user wishes to change this, they can simply check off a box in the launcher and enjoy a clean, decent gaming experience.

But bear in mind that a lot of combat soldiers aren't even a decade past your 15 year old's YouTube video.

Acknowledged. But while the age increases only slightly between the time when this hypothetical person is making YouTube videos and the time he/she is fighting in some war, their maturity has hopefully increased exponentially. If it hasn't, I certainly wouldn't trust them with my life on the battlefield. But all arguments of actual realism aside, some people (like me) are willing to sacrifice authenticity for decency. This is a decision rooted in my own personal moral code, and something that seems to be doing an exceptionally good job of getting people ticked off. Not primarily on HLP, mind you.  :p

Personally, I am fundamentally opposed to any form of censorship. Especially censorship by coding. Which is why I'll be fighting any attempt to add a "swear filter" to the engine.

To me, language is neither "good" nor "bad", (although there is "appropriate" and "nonappropriate"), and interfering with the creators vision of how his characters should sound is absolute Anathema. I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.

Regardless of whether language is good, bad, or simply neutral, there are as you say times when it's inappropriate. One of these times would be when a 7 year old is playing a FreeSpace campaign and this fellow wingmen are swearing like drunken sailors. In those circumstances, where age is one of the most important factors, almost any swearing is simply inappropriate. Now, there are two different approaches to correct this situation. Firstly, the 7 year old could just not play. Well...that's too bad. For him and the community as a whole. It really has an impact on all of us, a concern I voiced in Lucika's orginal thread. Or, instead of the 7 year old not playing, he could play with an enabled censor function that would make FreeSpace a memorable, enjoyable, addicting (I won't lie...), and clean experience.

Even in the above ideal situation, the characters in the campaign would still conform to their author's vision, as even the most effective filters, though removing the actual offensive content, can't remove the context. It's still fairly clear that there was swearing in a sentence that's been filtered, and for me that's really all that is required for the sense of immersive realism. When swearing builds character development, that development is still present even with a filter. I'd much rather see a chain of asterisks on my screen than an offensive word, but even with the former it's still clear to me what the pilot is trying to express. Nothing is really lost with a censorer.

And for your last concern, E, please read Dilmah G's post. I'm in complete agreement with what he so eloquently stated, and I think that anyone who has experience with young children would agree as well.

Personally, I am fundamentally opposed to any form of censorship. Especially censorship by coding. Which is why I'll be fighting any attempt to add a "swear filter" to the engine.

To me, language is neither "good" nor "bad", (although there is "appropriate" and "nonappropriate"), and interfering with the creators vision of how his characters should sound is absolute Anathema. I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.

^--  Hmm... I don't feel deprived. I know exactly what you meant to say.  And if I did feel deprived, I would uncheck the censoring option in my HLP profile settings.  I'm for choice in the matter.

Mind you I tolerate swearing just fine.  I went through a year of active duty USMC training (Boot camp, Combat Training, Occupational Specialty school from 8/25/2008 through 7/31/2009 - I'm now in the reserves).  I just prefer not to listen to it if I have the choice, and I try to avoid using it (although I do slip up).

Same. To be totally honest, swearing doesn't even phase me, but I still don't like it. At all. And I try to avoid it whenever possible. When I come home from work after being around people who swear like they're getting paid for it, the last thing I want is to hear another load of profanity while trying to relax with a good game of FreeSpace.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: General Battuta on August 06, 2010, 11:46:59 pm
Well I agree that I don't think a filter function would be terrible, but I also have to tell you that (at least in my own campaign writing) I don't think a seven year old should be playing it, not just because of obscenity but because it makes a frank attempt to deal with the horror of tens of thousands of people dying in front of you. It would feel weird to me to expose a child to that kind of terrifying event but to worry about profanity (which I do agree children should not be exposed to, though I read Jurassic Park and used my first '****' at age seven and then, after being told off, never uttered it again until about age 17.)

But yeah I can see your point. *shrug* I'll admit part of my objection just comes from the desire not to be treated as some kind of crude debased immoral...immoral person because I use profanity in my writing.

Quote
But while the age increases only slightly between the time when this hypothetical person is making YouTube videos and the time he/she is fighting in some war, their maturity has hopefully increased exponentially. If it hasn't, I certainly wouldn't trust them with my life on the battlefield.

Maturity in any sense that influences battlefield performance has no correlation to swearing. An optimal soldier would probably swear themselves blue because the act of obscenity actually dampens neural responses to pain and stress in most individuals.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 07, 2010, 12:06:45 am
The last thing I want is to hear another load of profanity while trying to relax with a good game of FreeSpace.

You apparently have a radically different conception of what "good" means from the majority of campaigns that have been recently released/are close to release. I don't think Dirge or WiH want you relaxing at all.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Ravenholme on August 07, 2010, 12:15:31 am
I think it would be innapropriate for a 7 year old to be playing Freespace 2, since there is mild profanity in the campaign as it stands, I think the game would probably qualify as a 12A. Which, in film standards, have some profanity and parental discretion and presence is required, for a kid to see it without their parents they need to be in the next age group, which would be 15.

So, I think your argument about kids is a little invalid.

I oppose a profanity filter, as you might have guessed.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Dilmah G on August 07, 2010, 05:49:47 am
Well I saw my first war movie (Memphis Belle) at age 3 and a bit, and didn't understand the swearing until about age 7/8 (I also started playing Freespace at six years old). However, I heard the words used in context and had enough of a grasp of English to know how to also use them in context, so I didn't go *completely* overboard with my use of profanity. Many other kids however, I can't say the same for. :P

The last thing I want is to hear another load of profanity while trying to relax with a good game of FreeSpace.

You apparently have a radically different conception of what "good" means from the majority of campaigns that have been recently released/are close to release. I don't think Dirge or WiH want you relaxing at all.
I think he plays Freespace to destress/blow **** up, much like most of the HLP IRC folk know that I play Modern Warfare 2 to relax, and don't give a flying **** about its storyline. And really, it's a game innit, the whole purpose is for you to have fun, whichever way that might be. Hell, I'd call a sortie where I end with 45 kills and a good mood a 'good game o'freespace'.

Quote from: Battuta
Maturity in any sense that influences battlefield performance has no correlation to swearing. An optimal soldier would probably swear themselves blue because the act of obscenity actually dampens neural responses to pain and stress in most individuals.
Well the optimal soldier probably wouldn't feel stress in the first place. Your voicebox has far better use in repeating verbal orders the section commander gives. :P
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 07, 2010, 08:38:10 am
You're australian and don't go overboard with profanity?  I call bull****.  :P
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Ransom on August 07, 2010, 01:51:11 pm
I have to question how you feel about profanity in other media. Why should we treat FreeSpace differently?

A campaign's language should be contingent on its desired tone and its thematic interests, not a misguided desire to cater to younger age groups than the content is aimed at. As you say, you can remove the profanity but you can't remove the context.

An optional filter is a fine idea and I have no issue with it. But it would not create many more options for children, I think.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: redsniper on August 07, 2010, 09:54:31 pm
How about everyone just don't let your kids play a game you know has coarse language until you think they're old enough to handle it, and if they go behind your back and do it anyways you punish them accordingly?
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Mongoose on August 07, 2010, 09:59:11 pm
Honestly, I don't think I'd let my (hypothetical) kids play FS before the age of 12 or so, not so much because of the language as the fact that I don't think they'd fully understand all of the storyline concepts before then.  That goes doubly so for many of the fan-made campaigns out there that really delve into some heavy stuff.  I mean, there's a lot more to "mature content" than the level of crudity present, and I think FS as a whole falls into that category in several respects.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Dilmah G on August 07, 2010, 10:01:29 pm
Well I understood the very literal stuff in the game when I played it as a young child. I'm a pilot in the GTVA, Bosch is bad, the Shivans are bad and we don't like them because they always ruin the party, and those Sathanas things are even worse.

I don't think I was too damaged by being exposed Freespace as a primary schooler. :P
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: NeoKnight on August 07, 2010, 10:35:27 pm
Well I agree that I don't think a filter function would be terrible, but I also have to tell you that (at least in my own campaign writing) I don't think a seven year old should be playing it, not just because of obscenity but because it makes a frank attempt to deal with the horror of tens of thousands of people dying in front of you. It would feel weird to me to expose a child to that kind of terrifying event but to worry about profanity (which I do agree children should not be exposed to, though I read Jurassic Park and used my first '****' at age seven and then, after being told off, never uttered it again until about age 17.)

You have a very good point, and I'm not claiming that a filter would guarantee a completely innocuous gaming environment for all ages. But it would reduce, if not completely eliminate, the most problematic element of the gameplay; the swearing. The violence, though present in abundance, is bloodless and stylized to such a high degree that we really have no frame of reference we can relate it to. This reduces the impact it has on the viewer. To elaborate; if a kid playing FreeSpace shoots down the Impervious and thinks it's just the greatest thing ever, there's still no real negative action he can take in real life as a direct consequence of that event. Now, if he's in the middle of a heated dogfight and his wingmen are unloading cuss words faster than missiles, he could very easily take that experience into his social life and cause quite a mess.

Additionally, at least in the retail FreeSpace campaigns, the player is usually not the one committing the acts of violence against fellow humankind. The NTF story arc is a major exception, of course, but most of the player's time is spent blasting Shivans. And given the circumstances, this is hardly morally objectionable on any front.

But yeah I can see your point. *shrug* I'll admit part of my objection just comes from the desire not to be treated as some kind of crude debased immoral...immoral person because I use profanity in my writing.

Well, to be rational, the people who might treat you like that have to be either right or wrong. If they're wrong, there's really no need to worry about it. They're just spouting false accusations, and idiots tend to do that no matter what you do. But if they're right...well, it gives you something to think about.

The last thing I want is to hear another load of profanity while trying to relax with a good game of FreeSpace.

You apparently have a radically different conception of what "good" means from the majority of campaigns that have been recently released/are close to release. I don't think Dirge or WiH want you relaxing at all.

Hey, I'm a midwest country boy who works on a farm. On top of that, I usually get the fun jobs like shoveling around llama manure. For me, almost anything I can do while sitting down is relaxing (except school of course).  :p And sure, blowing stuff to pieces is as good a way to relax as any. And if there's a solid story in there too, it makes it all the better.

I oppose a profanity filter, as you might have guessed.

I tried to address your reasons for doing so in my response to Battuta's post, mainly by stating that FreeSpace could be a good game for kids of we eliminated the swearing. Really, compared to what's on the market today, FreeSpace is fairly clean to start with; of course there is the swearing, which I'm trying to address, but the violence is highly stylized and bloodless, and there's no sex or nudity...aside from that horrid Vasudan in a bikini...

And that doesn't count.

I have to question how you feel about profanity in other media. Why should we treat FreeSpace differently?

A campaign's language should be contingent on its desired tone and its thematic interests, not a misguided desire to cater to younger age groups than the content is aimed at. As you say, you can remove the profanity but you can't remove the context.

Sometimes the content could be suitable for a surprisingly young age group if the profanity is absent. I really shouldn't have used Transcend as an example earlier (no offense  :D), but there are campaigns which could be adapted for young audiences if the swearing is removed.

Also, I dislike profanity on pretty much every level, including in all types of media. Not just FreeSpace.

An optional filter is a fine idea and I have no issue with it. But it would not create many more options for children, I think.

An important thing to remember is that the censorer would not be just for kids. I would use it. People who have the censor enabled on HLP might use it as well. I haven't heard anyone on this forum complain about its optional filter, and using the same concept in FreeSpace really isn't much different.





Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Snail on August 07, 2010, 10:53:09 pm
Well I understood the very literal stuff in the game when I played it as a young child. I'm a pilot in the GTVA, Bosch is bad, the Shivans are bad and we don't like them because they always ruin the party, and those Sathanas things are even worse.

I don't think I was too damaged by being exposed Freespace as a primary schooler. :P
When I first played FS, I didnt understand much other than "shoot the targets highlighted in red with shiny lasers"
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Mongoose on August 08, 2010, 01:06:17 am
See, and that's the thing.  If my kid was playing the game, I'd want to be able to have awesome in-depth conversations with him/her along the way regarding what was happening and why.  Not so much the "I'm shooting the red ships because they're bad guys" variety. :p
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2010, 01:09:16 am
Heh, my dad and I used to have conversations about alternative actions Commanders should've undertaken after I'd play wargames. :P

But Freespace is still a damn good game if all you want to do is blow **** up.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Lucika on August 08, 2010, 10:42:40 am
Firstly, apologies to Lucika for steering his thread off topic and thanks to whichever moderator split the thread.

No problem. My concerns went into ash real quick anyway. ;)
As for the topic, my opinion is that as long as it is optional and selectable, there is no problem with it (and I actually can't see the reason for The E's really strong dislike). I presume computer gaming lacks parental control more and more though.
Title: Re: Coarse language in campaigns
Post by: Kie99 on August 08, 2010, 11:56:35 am
I also first played the campaign with no real understanding of the plot, this in both games.  I skipped all the briefings and training missions, and spent about a year trying to complete Clash of the Titans because I had no idea that you had to go after the bombers.  You live and learn, but I wish I'd played it a few years later because the shocks of the campaign were already known to me when I first started to grasp the story.