[General Battuta]

But there's a difference and I think you would know what I mean if I could more clearly describe it.

And I'm positive you know the difference, if not on a subconscious level, with as much into writing as you are.

I hope so, yeah. Profanity use is something I'm still struggling with, so I don't know if I could confidently say I get it right.

[The E]

Personally, I am fundamentally opposed to any form of censorship. Especially censorship by coding. Which is why I'll be fighting any attempt to add a "swear filter" to the engine.

To me, language is neither "good" nor "bad", (although there is "appropriate" and "nonappropriate"), and interfering with the creators vision of how his characters should sound is absolute Anathema. I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.

[karajorma]

My suggestion would be an optional version which the creator themselves would decide to include or not.

[Spoon]

I'm with The E on this one

[NGTM-1R]

As long as I'm in their respective dev teams, all INF/NTV missions will be free from swearing.

Just for the record, you didn't much care about swearing until Karaj swore at you once on GW, so your opinion is...suspect.

[jr2]

Personally, I am fundamentally opposed to any form of censorship. Especially censorship by coding. Which is why I'll be fighting any attempt to add a "swear filter" to the engine.

To me, language is neither "good" nor "bad", (although there is "appropriate" and "nonappropriate"), and interfering with the creators vision of how his characters should sound is absolute Anathema. I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.

^--  Hmm... I don't feel deprived. I know exactly what you meant to say.  And if I did feel deprived, I would uncheck the censoring option in my HLP profile settings.  I'm for choice in the matter.

Mind you I tolerate swearing just fine.  I went through a year of active duty USMC training (Boot camp, Combat Training, Occupational Specialty school from 8/25/2008 through 7/31/2009 - I'm now in the reserves).  I just prefer not to listen to it if I have the choice, and I try to avoid using it (although I do slip up).

[Dilmah G]

I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.

I'd personally disagree with this, from my experience working with little kids. There are a few that lack the maturity to really use it properly/without offending people unintentionally. You save a lot of parents a lot of trouble by not exposing profanity to their children, I'd imagine.

But if guys want a profanity sensor or whatever, I can understand why.

[NeoKnight]

Firstly, apologies to Lucika for steering his thread off topic and thanks to whichever moderator split the thread.

Now, I'd like to emphasize again that the type of censoring function I'm in favor of would be...ahem...optional. Battuta expressed a concern that it would be disrespectful to the player to treat them as incapable of hearing words without being affected by them. There would be no disrespect directed towards the player because they would in no way be forced to undergo a censored gaming experience. I acknowledge that the majority of players are probably jaded to the level of indifference, and thus the censorer would be inactive by default. If the user wishes to change this, they can simply check off a box in the launcher and enjoy a clean, decent gaming experience.

But bear in mind that a lot of combat soldiers aren't even a decade past your 15 year old's YouTube video.

Acknowledged. But while the age increases only slightly between the time when this hypothetical person is making YouTube videos and the time he/she is fighting in some war, their maturity has hopefully increased exponentially. If it hasn't, I certainly wouldn't trust them with my life on the battlefield. But all arguments of actual realism aside, some people (like me) are willing to sacrifice authenticity for decency. This is a decision rooted in my own personal moral code, and something that seems to be doing an exceptionally good job of getting people ticked off. Not primarily on HLP, mind you. 

Personally, I am fundamentally opposed to any form of censorship. Especially censorship by coding. Which is why I'll be fighting any attempt to add a "swear filter" to the engine.

To me, language is neither "good" nor "bad", (although there is "appropriate" and "nonappropriate"), and interfering with the creators vision of how his characters should sound is absolute Anathema. I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.

Regardless of whether language is good, bad, or simply neutral, there are as you say times when it's inappropriate. One of these times would be when a 7 year old is playing a FreeSpace campaign and this fellow wingmen are swearing like drunken sailors. In those circumstances, where age is one of the most important factors, almost any swearing is simply inappropriate. Now, there are two different approaches to correct this situation. Firstly, the 7 year old could just not play. Well...that's too bad. For him and the community as a whole. It really has an impact on all of us, a concern I voiced in Lucika's orginal thread. Or, instead of the 7 year old not playing, he could play with an enabled censor function that would make FreeSpace a memorable, enjoyable, addicting (I won't lie...), and clean experience.

Even in the above ideal situation, the characters in the campaign would still conform to their author's vision, as even the most effective filters, though removing the actual offensive content, can't remove the context. It's still fairly clear that there was swearing in a sentence that's been filtered, and for me that's really all that is required for the sense of immersive realism. When swearing builds character development, that development is still present even with a filter. I'd much rather see a chain of asterisks on my screen than an offensive word, but even with the former it's still clear to me what the pilot is trying to express. Nothing is really lost with a censorer.

And for your last concern, E, please read Dilmah G's post. I'm in complete agreement with what he so eloquently stated, and I think that anyone who has experience with young children would agree as well.

Personally, I am fundamentally opposed to any form of censorship. Especially censorship by coding. Which is why I'll be fighting any attempt to add a "swear filter" to the engine.

To me, language is neither "good" nor "bad", (although there is "appropriate" and "nonappropriate"), and interfering with the creators vision of how his characters should sound is absolute Anathema. I don't quite see the point in trying to "protect" people (minors, for example) from something that is deemed offensive (or even damaging!) for some bull**** reason.

^--  Hmm... I don't feel deprived. I know exactly what you meant to say.  And if I did feel deprived, I would uncheck the censoring option in my HLP profile settings.  I'm for choice in the matter.

Mind you I tolerate swearing just fine.  I went through a year of active duty USMC training (Boot camp, Combat Training, Occupational Specialty school from 8/25/2008 through 7/31/2009 - I'm now in the reserves).  I just prefer not to listen to it if I have the choice, and I try to avoid using it (although I do slip up).

Same. To be totally honest, swearing doesn't even phase me, but I still don't like it. At all. And I try to avoid it whenever possible. When I come home from work after being around people who swear like they're getting paid for it, the last thing I want is to hear another load of profanity while trying to relax with a good game of FreeSpace.

[General Battuta]

Well I agree that I don't think a filter function would be terrible, but I also have to tell you that (at least in my own campaign writing) I don't think a seven year old should be playing it, not just because of obscenity but because it makes a frank attempt to deal with the horror of tens of thousands of people dying in front of you. It would feel weird to me to expose a child to that kind of terrifying event but to worry about profanity (which I do agree children should not be exposed to, though I read Jurassic Park and used my first '****' at age seven and then, after being told off, never uttered it again until about age 17.)

But yeah I can see your point. *shrug* I'll admit part of my objection just comes from the desire not to be treated as some kind of crude debased immoral...immoral person because I use profanity in my writing.

But while the age increases only slightly between the time when this hypothetical person is making YouTube videos and the time he/she is fighting in some war, their maturity has hopefully increased exponentially. If it hasn't, I certainly wouldn't trust them with my life on the battlefield.

Maturity in any sense that influences battlefield performance has no correlation to swearing. An optimal soldier would probably swear themselves blue because the act of obscenity actually dampens neural responses to pain and stress in most individuals.

[NGTM-1R]

The last thing I want is to hear another load of profanity while trying to relax with a good game of FreeSpace.

You apparently have a radically different conception of what "good" means from the majority of campaigns that have been recently released/are close to release. I don't think Dirge or WiH want you relaxing at all.

[Ravenholme]

I think it would be innapropriate for a 7 year old to be playing Freespace 2, since there is mild profanity in the campaign as it stands, I think the game would probably qualify as a 12A. Which, in film standards, have some profanity and parental discretion and presence is required, for a kid to see it without their parents they need to be in the next age group, which would be 15.

So, I think your argument about kids is a little invalid.

I oppose a profanity filter, as you might have guessed.

[Dilmah G]

Well I saw my first war movie (Memphis Belle) at age 3 and a bit, and didn't understand the swearing until about age 7/8 (I also started playing Freespace at six years old). However, I heard the words used in context and had enough of a grasp of English to know how to also use them in context, so I didn't go *completely* overboard with my use of profanity. Many other kids however, I can't say the same for.

The last thing I want is to hear another load of profanity while trying to relax with a good game of FreeSpace.

You apparently have a radically different conception of what "good" means from the majority of campaigns that have been recently released/are close to release. I don't think Dirge or WiH want you relaxing at all.

I think he plays Freespace to destress/blow **** up, much like most of the HLP IRC folk know that I play Modern Warfare 2 to relax, and don't give a flying **** about its storyline. And really, it's a game innit, the whole purpose is for you to have fun, whichever way that might be. Hell, I'd call a sortie where I end with 45 kills and a good mood a 'good game o'freespace'.

Maturity in any sense that influences battlefield performance has no correlation to swearing. An optimal soldier would probably swear themselves blue because the act of obscenity actually dampens neural responses to pain and stress in most individuals.

Well the optimal soldier probably wouldn't feel stress in the first place. Your voicebox has far better use in repeating verbal orders the section commander gives.

[Klaustrophobia]

You're australian and don't go overboard with profanity?  I call bull****. 

[Ransom]

I have to question how you feel about profanity in other media. Why should we treat FreeSpace differently?

A campaign's language should be contingent on its desired tone and its thematic interests, not a misguided desire to cater to younger age groups than the content is aimed at. As you say, you can remove the profanity but you can't remove the context.

An optional filter is a fine idea and I have no issue with it. But it would not create many more options for children, I think.

[redsniper]

How about everyone just don't let your kids play a game you know has coarse language until you think they're old enough to handle it, and if they go behind your back and do it anyways you punish them accordingly?

[Mongoose]

Honestly, I don't think I'd let my (hypothetical) kids play FS before the age of 12 or so, not so much because of the language as the fact that I don't think they'd fully understand all of the storyline concepts before then.  That goes doubly so for many of the fan-made campaigns out there that really delve into some heavy stuff.  I mean, there's a lot more to "mature content" than the level of crudity present, and I think FS as a whole falls into that category in several respects.

[Dilmah G]

Well I understood the very literal stuff in the game when I played it as a young child. I'm a pilot in the GTVA, Bosch is bad, the Shivans are bad and we don't like them because they always ruin the party, and those Sathanas things are even worse.

I don't think I was too damaged by being exposed Freespace as a primary schooler.

[NeoKnight]

Well I agree that I don't think a filter function would be terrible, but I also have to tell you that (at least in my own campaign writing) I don't think a seven year old should be playing it, not just because of obscenity but because it makes a frank attempt to deal with the horror of tens of thousands of people dying in front of you. It would feel weird to me to expose a child to that kind of terrifying event but to worry about profanity (which I do agree children should not be exposed to, though I read Jurassic Park and used my first '****' at age seven and then, after being told off, never uttered it again until about age 17.)

You have a very good point, and I'm not claiming that a filter would guarantee a completely innocuous gaming environment for all ages. But it would reduce, if not completely eliminate, the most problematic element of the gameplay; the swearing. The violence, though present in abundance, is bloodless and stylized to such a high degree that we really have no frame of reference we can relate it to. This reduces the impact it has on the viewer. To elaborate; if a kid playing FreeSpace shoots down the Impervious and thinks it's just the greatest thing ever, there's still no real negative action he can take in real life as a direct consequence of that event. Now, if he's in the middle of a heated dogfight and his wingmen are unloading cuss words faster than missiles, he could very easily take that experience into his social life and cause quite a mess.

Additionally, at least in the retail FreeSpace campaigns, the player is usually not the one committing the acts of violence against fellow humankind. The NTF story arc is a major exception, of course, but most of the player's time is spent blasting Shivans. And given the circumstances, this is hardly morally objectionable on any front.

But yeah I can see your point. *shrug* I'll admit part of my objection just comes from the desire not to be treated as some kind of crude debased immoral...immoral person because I use profanity in my writing.

Well, to be rational, the people who might treat you like that have to be either right or wrong. If they're wrong, there's really no need to worry about it. They're just spouting false accusations, and idiots tend to do that no matter what you do. But if they're right...well, it gives you something to think about.

The last thing I want is to hear another load of profanity while trying to relax with a good game of FreeSpace.

You apparently have a radically different conception of what "good" means from the majority of campaigns that have been recently released/are close to release. I don't think Dirge or WiH want you relaxing at all.

Hey, I'm a midwest country boy who works on a farm. On top of that, I usually get the fun jobs like shoveling around llama manure. For me, almost anything I can do while sitting down is relaxing (except school of course).  And sure, blowing stuff to pieces is as good a way to relax as any. And if there's a solid story in there too, it makes it all the better.

I oppose a profanity filter, as you might have guessed.

I tried to address your reasons for doing so in my response to Battuta's post, mainly by stating that FreeSpace could be a good game for kids of we eliminated the swearing. Really, compared to what's on the market today, FreeSpace is fairly clean to start with; of course there is the swearing, which I'm trying to address, but the violence is highly stylized and bloodless, and there's no sex or nudity...aside from that horrid Vasudan in a bikini...

And that doesn't count.

I have to question how you feel about profanity in other media. Why should we treat FreeSpace differently?

A campaign's language should be contingent on its desired tone and its thematic interests, not a misguided desire to cater to younger age groups than the content is aimed at. As you say, you can remove the profanity but you can't remove the context.

Sometimes the content could be suitable for a surprisingly young age group if the profanity is absent. I really shouldn't have used Transcend as an example earlier (no offense  ), but there are campaigns which could be adapted for young audiences if the swearing is removed.

Also, I dislike profanity on pretty much every level, including in all types of media. Not just FreeSpace.

An optional filter is a fine idea and I have no issue with it. But it would not create many more options for children, I think.

An important thing to remember is that the censorer would not be just for kids. I would use it. People who have the censor enabled on HLP might use it as well. I haven't heard anyone on this forum complain about its optional filter, and using the same concept in FreeSpace really isn't much different.

[Snail]

Well I understood the very literal stuff in the game when I played it as a young child. I'm a pilot in the GTVA, Bosch is bad, the Shivans are bad and we don't like them because they always ruin the party, and those Sathanas things are even worse.

I don't think I was too damaged by being exposed Freespace as a primary schooler.

When I first played FS, I didnt understand much other than "shoot the targets highlighted in red with shiny lasers"

[Mongoose]

See, and that's the thing.  If my kid was playing the game, I'd want to be able to have awesome in-depth conversations with him/her along the way regarding what was happening and why.  Not so much the "I'm shooting the red ships because they're bad guys" variety.