-
Okay guys, due to the nature of the topic, I'm gonna say put a blanket spoiler screen on just about anything you post.
First up: The cargos on the Psych eval mission. If you bothered to stay long enough to read them all, you'll know there's an interesting bit of info there, no matter how you slice it. However, when you scan everything, it makes it look like AT LEAST two conversations going, the names, and the cargos. The names are talking seemingly to Noemi, giving her a set of instructions, or at least preparing her for some trouble down the road. The cargos reinforce that in a slightly different tone. However, I noticed that about halfway through the cargo name sequence, it abruptly stops talking to Noemi, and starts talking to a third party. My guess, third party is the shivans. "Brothers, brothers! Paramatma! Why are you so cold?" That line is in AoA too, if you look for it (Shivan cargo depot, middle of nowhere, player flying Vishnan craft). I think that the Vishnans, in the middle of their conversation with Noemi let it slip (deliberately, mind you) that they were speaking to the Shivans as well. I'm not sure exactly what that would accomplish, but it's something.
Alternately, the break in conversation tone could be the SHIVANS speaking to Noemi, but I think that's less likely than the above.
Now, the comm node. It's transmitting into the void, and I have it from a very reliable source that that's significant. My take: It's an internal metaphor for Noemi's Nagari potential. I have the feeling that sometime next release, Noemi is going to realize that, and I wouldn't be surprised if she manages to somehow shut it down when she needs to. That said, I have the sinking feeling that Noemi is going to be somehow responsible for bringing the Shivans down on Earth. Again. The title of the campaign is War in Heaven (durr). That phrase also appears in the cargo yard, so I think it refers to the conflict between Shivans and Vishnans and centers around the 'plan' they refer to. Since that is, in fact, the title, I predict the Shivans and/or Vishnans will at least make an appearance in part 2, even if only at the end.
Not a lot of fanspec between that and Delenda Est, aside from some stuff I thought of while playing but can't remember now. But, in Sunglare, the final cutscene, when the Masayaf jumps in, some struck. The Masayaf picked them up out of the stellar void. Sunward, no less. Did anyone bother to wonder how? They ask for Noemi Laporte by name. My theory is that Laporte's Nagari sensitivity was like a beacon for others, and that that's why the Fedayeen is separate from fleet. They hunt based on Nagari sensitivity, a telepathy of sorts, and used that to find the Indus before the sun took it. I can't help but wonder if the exchange between Bei and his father at the end was done by comms, or by Nagari communication itself...
Well, that's my load of fanspec. Feel free to add/comment, BUT REMEMBER SPOILERS!
-
One thout that I have had is that Noemi is kinda like the ying to Bei's yang. She seems to be a much darker person than Bei is, and I have to agree that she might be involved with the Shivans somehow. After all, Bei acted as the Vishnan's agent, so I feel Noemi might end up serving the same role for ths Shivans through some cruel twist of fate. That leads me to believe that "Ken" might be some attempt by the Shivans to communicate/manipulate Noemi into helping them achieve their goal of protecting smaller races through destroying more powerful ones. This makes sense because in the Ancient cutscenes from FS1, it was implied that the Shivans wanted to keep races confined to their home systems, where they belonged. Since Sol is effectively cut off from the rest of the universe without the Sol-Delta Serpentis Jumpgate, it makes sense that they want Noemi to destroy the GTVA presence.
-
One thout that I have had is that Noemi is kinda like the ying to Bei's yang. She seems to be a much darker person than Bei is, and I have to agree that she might be involved with the Shivans somehow. After all, Bei acted as the Vishnan's agent, so I feel Noemi might end up serving the same role for ths Shivans through some cruel twist of fate. That leads me to believe that "Ken" might be some attempt by the Shivans to communicate/manipulate Noemi into helping them achieve their goal of protecting smaller races through destroying more powerful ones. This makes sense because in the Ancient cutscenes from FS1, it was implied that the Shivans wanted to keep races confined to their home systems, where they belonged. Since Sol is effectively cut off from the rest of the universe without the Sol-Delta Serpentis Jumpgate, it makes sense that they want Noemi to destroy the GTVA presence.
Scotty, I just wanted to say that I agree with all of your points, except that I'm not sure about the Maysaf.
Carbine7, I really think you're onto something Especially because 'Ken' tells her that sometimes we have to destroy to preserve, which is the domain of the Shivans in the Vishnan-Shivan relationship, and then forces her to take up that mantle when she destroys the ant hill and kills the ants.
-
Trying to deduct this with some logic, suspicion and trying to get my head into the story:
Noemi's role
I see Noemi as the counterbalance for Bei. Not the Vishans, but the Shivans speak to Noemi. The blueprint she received is probably a perfected version of ETAK. She can learn to talk with the destroyers, the late elder probably wanted to warn Noemi to not listen to the dark gospel and morbid ballads of they who are the Shivans. If Noemi is a great destroyer, (Sam) Bei is possibly a preserver (taken literally with the Sanctuary 'preserving survivors' from the other universe) who may lead remaining humans to a future.
Also the Shivans spoke of this being their second try I think, so I assume that their first try was perhaps Bosch who similar to Noemi may have been told to destroye the GTVA. It often takes a bastard or ***** to make hard choices, so that those whoever remains can build a better world from the ashes. Alternately they meant the ancients.
A garden overgrown with weed can look beautiful to the eyes of the beholder, but it can never flourish until you cut down the weed. Often the weed is entangled with the plants you adore and it requires cutting both the plants and weed down to have the garden flourish forever without the weed ever coming back.
Anita Lopez
Anita loves her crew and seems to be a bit of a Ng'mei: she's a mother hen and her people follow her blindly into life; into death. Steele probably shook her awake when she took his order to engage the enemy risking most of her crew and Anita may seriously doubt if she's on the right side or not now. I got a gut feeling that Anita may swap sides later on, but I might be wrong. Her crew'd follow her blindly I'm sure.
The Informant
I'm pretty sure the informant is (former) Admiral Thea Carey from the GTD Temeraire. What role she plays from now on I do not know, perhaps someone will help her escape confinement: perhaps Lopez or someone sent by Lopez. I'm not sure if the Temeraire would follow her example. Alternately she may die as example, though that'd be an anti-climax. A third option is re-education or brainwashing, something which'd be sad and I think would not do the Carey character justice (but it is an ironic faith).
Lorna Simms
I slightly suspect Simms to have died in Noemi's arms. Noemi admitted loving Lorna, which can mean anything: in a harsh period love isn't always about butterflies and crawling under the blankets, it can be comfort with having someone to support on. Lorna realized she was not alone right there and then and I think she gave up living the moment she said she'd train new pilots on the Indus again: it sounds like she'd live an empty life waiting for death. If Lorna indeed did die then for once she wasn't the one to have someone die in her arms but instead died in someone else their arms, in Noemi's knowing she was with the person she could and did love. Dying (especially that way) was very merciful for the woman with a deathwish. We'll see if she made it through.
The faith of the Indus and the Feyadeen
The faith of the Indus is questionable and depends on the Feyadeen. If they want to utilize Noemi's anger, they'd probably blow it up or let it drop into the sun after retrieving Noemi. "Come to the darkside" so to say, feed the little destroyer her anger. Alternately they may just want to sanitize the ship. It's probably beyond repair even if recovered, most crew may be beyond help and the Feyadeen can stay secret for a reason. If the Feyadeen intend to keep Noemi from falling, they may try to salvage the ship and to safe Simms' life, or alternately lie about Simms being alright even if the latter might not be true.
The Feyadeen's intentions and the faith of the Indus is least clear to me, which is a good sign, it means the Feyadeen and their intentions are as mysterious as they are supposed to be! They can be saints, or for all we know a second Hammer of Light. Exciting!
The secret project
I'm guessing that the secret project which needs so many logistical support may be a final exodus to find humankind's destiny. After all if humankind is the great builder, restorer or whatever, their faith lies with the entire galaxy or universe! Not just within the Sol system or even GTVA held territory. They're packing their backs perhaps. It's the only thing I can come up with. The vasudans may be the great chroniclers, remaining the philosophers to write about this ascension, much like they once tried with the ancients (who seemingly didn't quite make the cut).
Faith of the GTC Duke and other vessels
Here I assume three options:
1) Reverse engineering: The Federation may finally build their own version of beam weaponry.
2) Infiltration: Slap a new ID and security codes on her, and you can just perhaps quietly sail into GTVA space to either do damage or to retrieve someone (maybe Thea Carey?) or something. I can somehow see Al'fadil being talked into reason by Bei. Or maybe not.
3) Escorting and/or masquerading: They may simply form an escort for the logistical vessels. Maybe they did something funky to their beams or wish to masquerade as the escorts of a logistical vessel they might try to replace. Imagine being able to sabotage or even hijack a unaware destroyer which docks with the logistical vessel. It wouldn't hurt to have a Titan or even Hecate in the fleet. Hijacking seems unlikely though, it doesn't fully fit in the flow of the federation's actions.
My speculations thus far.
-
I think the informant may have started out as Thea, but the GTVA later used the alleged source within the GTVA to help lure the UEF into their trap.
-
I think the informant may have started out as Thea, but the GTVA later used the alleged source within the GTVA to help lure the UEF into their trap.
Through interrogation or blackmail towards Thea perhaps.
-
The source probably remained anonymous from the start - Steele could have easily fed the Wargods information by simply masquerading as the informant.
-
The source probably remained anonymous from the start - Steele could have easily fed the Wargods information by simply masquerading as the informant.
Pretty sure that is what happened, GTVI pretended to be the anonymous informant after she got busted.
Pretty sure she got busted when she leaked the Agincourt schedule, going by the "Conversations from War in Heaven"
-
There's information on the info packet that Noemi received in the tech room after you finish that mission.
Personally, I'm still wondering why the UEF hasn't gone for the war-ship capturing approach. They need beams and ships; they should have sent marines to capture the two corvettes in the mission before the final battle with the Carthage.
-
To capture a full fledged warship you'd need three times as many marines as the defender, as defenders have significant advantage in knowing the ship and quite likely having automatic internal defenses. Agincourt could be captured with minimal losses because it was a logistics ship, not a combatant so to speak.
-
There's information on the info packet that Noemi received in the tech room after you finish that mission.
Personally, I'm still wondering why the UEF hasn't gone for the war-ship capturing approach. They need beams and ships; they should have sent marines to capture the two corvettes in the mission before the final battle with the Carthage.
In addition to Fury`'s points, they already have the Labouchere, Solace, Duke and (now) the Agincourt. They probably have enough research material for the moment.
Also, I think the majority of GTVA crews would sooner scuttle a ship than let it fall into enemy hands.
-
The idea that the Shivans are the ones talking to Noemi is interesting, yes, but I don't think it really holds up. In the "cargo depot," the "cargos" talk about how they were deviating from some plan and that an unnamed third party (my guess, Shivans) should not be surprised. At the end of AoA, we seen the Shivans and Vishnans come to blows over whether the plan should be followed or not, and the Shivans are all for the plan. Additionally, the phrase "Destroy to preserve" fits more with the Great Preservers than that Great Destroyers, no? The Destroyers have no real desire to preserve, from everything we've seen.
-
The idea that the Shivans are the ones talking to Noemi is interesting, yes, but I don't think it really holds up. In the "cargo depot," the "cargos" talk about how they were deviating from some plan and that an unnamed third party (my guess, Shivans) should not be surprised. At the end of AoA, we seen the Shivans and Vishnans come to blows over whether the plan should be followed or not, and the Shivans are all for the plan. Additionally, the phrase "Destroy to preserve" fits more with the Great Preservers than that Great Destroyers, no? The Destroyers have no real desire to preserve, from everything we've seen.
Play AoA again, you'll find that the Vishnans and Shivans are brothers. The Vishnans preserve, but when they feel something needs to die because they have failed, they call in the Shivans, who are there destructive brothers. I know more, but I am not allowed to say.
-
Nonono, Vishnans are brothers, Shivans are sisters.
I think Noemi Laporte is to the Shivans as Samuel Bei is to the Vishnans. The radical differences between the manifestation ... an enormous eye, a Shivan Comm Node in a nebula of blood...
Another question, who is "the enemy of your enemy"? Probably the enemy of the Terrans of the GTVA, I suspect... Shivans? Maybe even Bosch? That'd be an interesting twist!
-
Another question, who is "the enemy of your enemy"? Probably the enemy of the Terrans of the GTVA, I suspect... Shivans? Maybe even Bosch? That'd be an interesting twist!
There are some hints in that mission.
-
Giant ants.. space ants.. ;)
-
Well...
I might be completely wrong on that, but somehow the thought that it is the Shivans speaking to Noemi seems plausible to me. If only for the appeal of having one major character with a deep connection to the Vishnans, and one with a deep connection to the Shivans. Also it might build up a more ambiguous take on the Shivans than simply "they are evil destroyers", even more than AoA did - which is what I am expecting anyway.
AoA to me was also all about preservation - preserving the remnants of mankind i that lost Universe. While WiH with Noemi's character Arc is all about combat, and destruction - and the determination to destroy in order to end a war and ultimately preserve. Maybe I'm over analyzing - and I actually don't have all the flavour material from the tech room and the dream sequence readily available in my head atm, so there might be something contradicting that in the available lore.
-
Someone really should post the cargo messages here..... (Just a hint)
-
From the mission file, presumably in the intended order but idk:
(This first part is in conjunction with the ship name, so we're only getting the odd-numbered lines here. I may post up the entire thing here, unless someone beats me to it.)
#Alternate Types:
$Alt: Customized Design
$Alt: spoke wordlessly
$Alt: yet you remember them
$Alt: i was only in your head
$Alt: ever heard?
$Alt: are voices ever heard?
$Alt: nor have you ever been
$Alt: are the ear at the door
$Alt: you are a made thing
$Alt: for the quantum whisper
$Alt: between two worlds
$Alt: armor and briefings
$Alt: and portents
$Alt: child's phantasmagoria
$Alt: just as real and deadly
$Alt: treachery and power
$Alt: as a briefing would seem
$Alt: REMEMBER THIS
$Alt: the branches of the co
$Alt: infinite worlds
$Alt: do not be lulled by the
$Alt: and spirituality
$Alt: our own war in heaven
$Alt: the ancient design fails
$Alt: and tapasya
$Alt: the will of those who
$Alt: leaving us to preserve
$Alt: to their frigid watch
$Alt: fray and blur together
$Alt: paramatma! why are you
$Alt: the clockwork
$Alt: dance with and tend to
$Alt: you maintain the old will
$Alt: when we cast it aside
$Alt: the plan they left us
$Alt: you are destroyers
$Alt: and in doing so
$Alt: in the depths
$Alt: their desperate plan
$Alt: you maintain the old plan
$Alt: that stalks the depths
$Alt:
$Alt: we must prepare.
$Alt: dance with
$Alt: and the clockwork
$Alt: execute your will upon
$Alt: that stalks the cold roads
$Alt: Unknown
$Alt: yet you remember
#end
#Callsigns:
$Callsign: Laporte
$Callsign: Ken
$Callsign: BALANCE
$Callsign: MUST BE
$Callsign: MAINTAINED
$Callsign: THE OLD EDICT
$Callsign: IS IMPERATIVE.
$Callsign: MAINTAINED.
$Callsign: WE SEEK THE ONE
$Callsign: OUT OF MANY
$Callsign: THE ONES WHO
$Callsign: CAN MATCH
$Callsign: THE BRAHMANS
$Callsign: OF OLD.
$Callsign: ENLIGHTENMENT IS
$Callsign: A THRESHOLD
$Callsign: THE CATALYST FOR
$Callsign: AMALGAMATION, FOR
$Callsign: THE SINGULARITY
$Callsign: THAT BINDS WHOLE
$Callsign: SPECIES INTO
$Callsign: THE UNION WE SEEK.
$Callsign: THEY BURNT THE
$Callsign: COSMOS CLEAN
$Callsign: IN THE WARS OF
$Callsign: THEIR YOUTH
$Callsign: NEVER AGAIN WILL
$Callsign: THAT PRICE BE PAID
$Callsign: THAT PRICE BE PAID.
$Callsign: THE ONE WHO
$Callsign: THE UNIVERSE TILTS
$Callsign: WITHOUT US
$Callsign: THE FIRE WOULD
$Callsign: FEW EXHIBIT
$Callsign: POTENTIAL
$Callsign: NONE HAVE YET
$Callsign: SURVIVED THE
$Callsign: HARROWING OUR
$Callsign: HARROWING THAT
$Callsign:
$Callsign: THE BRAHMAN
$Callsign: HARROWING.
$Callsign: BUT WE WILL
$Callsign: PERSEVERE, OR SEE
$Callsign: ALL THINGS ENDED.
$Callsign: Vicmouth
-
No, that is decidedly not the order. At all. (well, maybe, but half are missing, and half of the ones there are half missing as well.)
I'd go find them, but I'm too lazy to do that now. I'll probably do that later though.
-
Hm, this should be it:
The Voices in the Womb spoke wordlessly
Infancy is amnesia yet you remember them
as a child you were told I was only in your head
yet where else are voices ever heard?
You are not mad nor have you ever been
You are no mystic, you are a made thing
gifted with an ear for the quantum whisper
you draw a line between two worlds
the world of fighters and armor and briefings
and the world of dreams and portents
but this dreamscape this child's phantasmagoria
ist a glimpse into a world just as real and deadly
a place of strategems of treachery and power
that seems to you as strange as a briefing would seem
to an ape, remember this
those who walk among infinite worlds
must still wage war do not be lulled by the
soft words of mysticism and spirituality
we too struggle with our own war in heaven
our purpose is unclear the old design fails
we perform bakhti and Tapasya
in order to divine the will of those who
passed deeper eons ago leaving us to preserve
and our brothers in dance to their frigid watch
at the border where worlds fray and blur together
Brothers Brother, Paratma! Why are you
so cold? You tend to the walls and the clockwork
while we the gardeners execute your will upon
all the life within, you maintain the old plan
but do not pretend surprise when we cast it aside
your creators blundered once, and in doing so
unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads
of the cosmos we must prepare
Balance
must be
maintained
the original plan
is imperative
We seek the one
out of many
the one who
can match
the brahmans
of old.
Enlightenment is
A Threshold
the catalyst for
Amalgamation, for
the singularity
that binds whole
species into
the union we seek
the old burnt the
cosmos clean
in the wars of
their youth
never again will
that price be paid
-
With correct formatting:
The Voices in the Womb spoke wordlessly.
Infancy is amnesia yet you remember them.
As a child you were told I was only in your head, yet where else are voices ever heard?
You are not mad, nor have you ever been.
You are no mystic, you are a made thing, gifted with an ear for the quantum whisper.
You draw a line between two worlds: the world of fighters and armor and briefings, and the world of dreams and portents.
But this dreamscape, this child's phantasmagoria, is a glimpse into a world just as real and deadly, a place of strategems of treachery and power that seems to you as strange as a briefing would seem to an ape.
REMEMBER THIS:
Those who walk among infinite worlds must still wage war. Do not be lulled by the
soft words of mysticism and spirituality. We too struggle with our own war in heaven.
Our purpose is unclear, the old design fails.
We perform bakhti and Tapasya in order to divine the will of those who passed deeper eons ago, leaving us to preserve, and our brothers in dance to their frigid watch at the border where worlds fray and blur together.
Brothers, Brothers, Paramatma! Why are you so cold? You tend to the walls and the clockwork, while we the gardeners execute your will upon all the life within. You maintain the old plan, but do not pretend surprise when we cast it aside.
Your creators blundered once, and in doing so, unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads of the cosmos.
We must prepare.
Second part:
Balance must be maintained. The original plan is imperative.
We seek the one out of many, the one who can match the brahmans of old.
Enlightenment is a threshold, the catalyst for amalgamation, for the singularity that binds whole species into the union we seek.
The old burnt the cosmos clean in the wars of their youth.
Never again will that price be paid.
-
Just read the Project Nagiri text again, making me think of the secret device blueprints Laporte received. Maybe "the enemy of your enemy" is someone still sympathetic to the cause of the old GTI.
-
Balance must be maintained. The original plan is imperative.
We seek the one out of many, the one who can match the brahmans of old.
Reminds me a lot of what Shiva said in AoA. "They are not the ones we seek. They are like us. They destroy". That leads me to believe that the "cargo monologue" are the Shivans.
I guess in the Shivans eyes, the Vishnans have lost sight of the real facts and see more potential for enlightenment than is there.
And form the Vishnans point of view the Shivans have become so fixated on eliminating potential threats at the first sign of trouble that the young ones have no chance to ever reach the potential they seek, resulting in a never ending cycle of destruction.
And maybe they are both right. Maybe that's why they need allies within the species they try to protect/educate/evaluate/whatever to get back the perspective they lost over the countless millenia.
It might be an interresting twist if (in BP3, not WiH 2 mind you) it turned out that in this universe the Vishnans are actually the bad guys. And the Shivans only attacked Humans and Vasudans, because the presence of the people communicating with the Vishnans made them think we are already in leage or even serving their enemies.
I know they weren't really enemies, but remember that was in the parallel universe! It might be very different "over here".
As for what I expect from WiH2: I guess Neomi will start out pretty furious about what happened to Simms (for this it doesn't really matter if she died or was "only" seriously hurt) and need a few missions of slaughtering Tevs before she regains her reason. Either that or she's depressed untill someone (maybe her uncle or Samuel) bring her around and get her back into fighting shape.
The secret project.... it might be a very big ship, but that would go pretty much against everything the UEF stands for. At one point in the campaign (don't remember were, or maybe it was in a techroom describtion?) someone from the UEF says that the GTVA didn't learn their lesson about massive ships being a bad idea from losing the Colossus. I certainly hope that's not the case though.
Or maybe a new "proto-jumpnode" formed somewhere close to the sun and now they try to build a portal of their own to give them a way out into the universe.
As for the Fedayeen being able to locate the Indus, that isn't really surprising. Since they were able to keep facts of their existance so secrets many people don't even believe they exist, they have to be great not only at manipulating but also at gathering information. The shipcaptain even said that listening was one of their specialities.
Another possibility is that the secret project is undertaken close to the sun, to help keep in hidden and the Indus was just lucky to jump in close to the site and thus in range for their emergency signal to be heard by the Fedayeen.
-
Bleh, why are we using spoilers?
Maybe the ridiculously high "NGRI" count somehow was detected by the Fedayeen (rather than the distress call itself)?
-
Bleh, why are we using spoilers?
Maybe the ridiculously high "NGRI" count somehow was detected by the Fedayeen (rather than the distress call itself)?
Wow that makes a lot of sense.
-
like Aardwolf said, what's with the spoiler tags? I think if someone clicks on an epileptic trees thread it's clear that spoilers will be the only topic of conversation.
Balance must be maintained. The original plan is imperative.
We seek the one out of many, the one who can match the brahmans of old.
It might be an interresting twist if (in BP3, not WiH 2 mind you) it turned out that in this universe the Vishnans are actually the bad guys. And the Shivans only attacked Humans and Vasudans, because the presence of the people communicating with the Vishnans made them think we are already in leage or even serving their enemies.
I know they weren't really enemies, but remember that was in the parallel universe! It might be very different "over here".
The techroom implies that the Vishnans (and probably also Shivans) are extradimensional beings who influence realities such as AoA's and "ours".
As for what I expect from WiH2: I guess Neomi will start out pretty furious about what happened to Simms (for this it doesn't really matter if she died or was "only" seriously hurt) and need a few missions of slaughtering Tevs before she regains her reason. Either that or she's depressed untill someone (maybe her uncle or Samuel) bring her around and get her back into fighting shape.
The secret project.... it might be a very big ship, but that would go pretty much against everything the UEF stands for. At one point in the campaign (don't remember were, or maybe it was in a techroom describtion?) someone from the UEF says that the GTVA didn't learn their lesson about massive ships being a bad idea from losing the Colossus. I certainly hope that's not the case though.
Or maybe a new "proto-jumpnode" formed somewhere close to the sun and now they try to build a portal of their own to give them a way out into the universe.
I think the secret project is much less mundane than a ship, jumpnode or weapon. I think it has a lot to do with Nagari. Whatever humans are doing in the BPverse, the Shivans and Vishnans are far more powerful. (The Fedayeen came for Noemi, which suggests that she is pertinent to their secret project, and it's pretty clear from the Beis' conversation that this is because of her extreme NGRI score recorded during that insanely creepy mission).
My speculation, with no evidence other than that I would like it to be so: Alpha 1 from FS1 is an Elder, or (more likely) involved with the Fedayeen project along with the Beis (since, after all, he was contacted by the Shivans or Vishnans in the form of the FS1 cutscenes).
-
Bleh, why are we using spoilers?
Maybe the ridiculously high "NGRI" count somehow was detected by the Fedayeen (rather than the distress call itself)?
Wow that makes a lot of sense.
I rather thought that was HEAVILY implied in the dialogue of the Masyaf.
-
If that was the case, why did they need to ask IF Laporte is on board instead of just asking to speak with her?
It's reasonable to assume that the distress signal included the ships name. And the Fedayeen would surely know which ship she is stationed on, but they couldn't know wether she survived the fight that got the Indus in this situation.
I wouldn't be surprised if the test in earth orbit wasn't a mental check run by a psychologist, but rather a "nagari test" run by a Fedayeen agent. That would also explain were the transcript of a normal questioning came form - not a second personality, but rather a coverup made by the Fedayeen to hide their sceening.
-
If that was the case, why did they need to ask IF Laporte is on board instead of just asking to speak with her?
It's reasonable to assume that the distress signal included the ships name. And the Fedayeen would surely know which ship she is stationed on, but they couldn't know wether she survived the fight that got the Indus in this situation.
I wouldn't be surprised if the test in earth orbit wasn't a mental check run by a psychologist, but rather a "nagari test" run by a Fedayeen agent. That would also explain were the transcript of a normal questioning came form - not a second personality, but rather a coverup made by the Fedayeen to hide their sceening.
They could have found somebody else with a high Nagari count, it sounded rather like getting confirmation to me.
And also, read the dialogue after the credits. It was a Nagari test.
-
Situation FUBAR.
There stands to be a few story threads with massive blowback in War in Heaven part 2.
One of course is the assassination of the UEF Elder and the cover up operation to fool the Vasudans. It could well bring down the political unity of the GTA, or even the GTVA if it gets out of the bag.
I'm not entirely convinced "Ken" is a Vishnan. Advocating the destruction of an entire branch of humanity doesn't seem to be a very 'Preserver' thing to do. Not to mention that Shivan com node in the dream sequence... The Shivans could be fighting fire with fire... perhaps a result of Bosch and ETAK?
The military survival of the UEF is very much in doubt at this point, it will takes years if not decades to rebuild the damage. The GTVA has suffered losses, but it has not lost any of it's most important military ships. The Elder's plans are back firing, the war of attrition is playing to the strengths of the GTVA, not the UEF.
And of course, the Shivans are monitoring the situation and perhaps are already on the move. While they cannot be defeated by traditional military means, I hope any "Deus Ex" resolution doesn't revolve around the human race all holding hands and making nice with the bug-eyed genocidal monsters. The Shivans have already abandoned their place in the galactic order of things according to AoA, and are pursuing their own agenda. For them to 'follow the rules' once humanity stops its great civil war would be an anticlimax. I have faith in the story telling of the BP team, I just hope it doesn't completely marginalize the GTVA's perspective that the Shivans are simply too dangerous to leave humanity's fate to their "good graces", since they don't exist.
-
What if KEN is actually aKEN.. (Bosch), that'd be disturbingly scary. :lol:
Now that'd be a plot twist there.
-
What if KEN is actually aKEN.. (Bosch), that'd be disturbingly scary. :lol:
Now that'd be a plot twist there.
I might actually like Ken then, rather than want to shoot him.
-
Ken's not Bosch! That'd make him an asshole! I ****en hate Bosch! :(
-
The "Shivans are the good guys" is about as dramatically interesting as a rock in the face. They're murdering monsters. No nation is obliged to keel over and die simply because they've made mistakes in the past. If that were the case, Germany should be an atomic smear.
If these are Vishnans and not Shivans, I think the meaning is actually a warning against the Elders. The voice says, "don't be decieved by navel gazing, we too are fighting a war as the old designs are failing".
Whatever good intentions the old system of Brahmin, Shivan and Vishnan had in the past, the system no longer functions. Shiva has gone rogue according to AoA. The battle is over whether humanity and the Vasudans can survive the clash of these old titans.
-
Any particular reason why you opened a 2nd fanspec thread?
-
Any particular reason why you opened a 2nd fanspec thread?
It's all cool, though we can merge if he likes.
I can't really talk about anything in the OP without spoiling, except to say that we're not big fan of deus exes.
-
Sorry bout that, mergers are approved. Though for future reference non-shorted subject titles might be helpful. "Fanspec" wasn't immediately identifiable as the WIH2 story speculation thread, at least for me.
-
AoA played in a parallel universe. We don't know wether the fights over there have any influence on the GTVA/UEF universe.
And from a certain point of view the Shivans always were the good guys. They wipe out those that would kill the weaker species, so they can flourish.
Do you consider the people who almost wiped out the wolves in Europe in the past evil? They were doing what they thought was necessary to safe their families after all, no matter that their judgement was based on wrong information. For the Shivans we are the wolves and the species to come are their children - untill they in turn become the wolves.
Good and evil, morality, justice.... it all depends on point of view. What for one person is a sin, is a virtue for another (like killing unbeliefers for example... or killing wolves). A very cynical person could even say that such concepts as good, evil and moral are just a way to force your own ideals onto others. Make everyone the same and chocke off individualism.
That there is no definate good and evil in Blue Planet is one of the things tha apeal to me so much. Instead of saying "we are good. shivans are evil" or "UEF good, GTVA evil" all sides have valid reasons for what they do. It provokes thinking about and discussion the situations and points of view of each side.
They're murdering monsters.
What did the Shivans do? Massmurder, indisciminate killings and genocide. And all that towards some purpose, not for fun.
Humankind? Massmurder, genocide, indiscriminate killings, torture, rape, use of weapons with horrific aftereffects (nuclear bombs, chemical weapons, napalm,....). And all that for petty matters or even for pleasure.
If there are murdering monsters lose in this universe, I fear they are us. And looking back at our history makes one wonder if the Shivans arn't justified in wiping us out to make room for a better species.
On the other hand, there always were, and hopefully always will be, those of us who don't go that path, which might make us worth saving.
-
If that was the case, why did they need to ask IF Laporte is on board instead of just asking to speak with her?
It's reasonable to assume that the distress signal included the ships name. And the Fedayeen would surely know which ship she is stationed on, but they couldn't know wether she survived the fight that got the Indus in this situation.
Perhaps the means of detection weren't sent along? Maybe it was one of the elders? No need to go along with the mission when you can just tell the crew of the ship carrying it out "take extra care to bring Noemi Laporte home alive!" Or perhaps the "secret project" has something to do with the Nagari process, something along the lines of a UEF version of ETAK, and it was that which spotted Noemi?
All of this of course is justification post-facto, after all their distress signal might've been picked up by conventional means. The thing that led me to consider alternate possibilities was the thing about the noise from the sun making it harder to pick up their signal.
I wouldn't be surprised if the test in earth orbit wasn't a mental check run by a psychologist, but rather a "nagari test" run by a Fedayeen agent. That would also explain were the transcript of a normal questioning came form - not a second personality, but rather a coverup made by the Fedayeen to hide their sceening.
I was thinking that too! But it does seem kind of silly, considering the findings. I mean, she's too interesting (scientifically) to leave her in the field to get shot up, and potentially too unstable to leave to her own devices.
-
AoA played in a parallel universe. We don't know wether the fights over there have any influence on the GTVA/UEF universe.
IIRC it's implied several times that the Vishnans (and therefore Shivans, since they're a similar... entity) are extradimensional.
[Bei] was informed that the Vishnans were psychic beings of pure thought that could move between universes
I know it says the info is unreliable because it came from the Vishnans, but then we have...
Our tentative simulations suggest that the Vishnan 'Great Psyche' is a subspace stack entity, a sophisticated construct that exploits energy gradients in subspace to perform computation and cognition. Because subspace surrounds and connects universes, this entity exists outside time and space, and is capable of observing the entire space-time bulk. This grants it complete knowledge of all events past and future, although this knowledge may be hampered by quantum uncertainty. The origin of this entity is unknown, but we believe it may be artificial in nature.
And...
[from The Jester's probably Nagari-fueled visions] The Shivans were a vastly more alien, powerful, and extant force than anyone had at first believed.
indicating that the Shivans are possibly the same kind of entity as the Vishnans are described to be.
I know this info isn't concrete and may even be completely inaccurate, reflecting what little the Terrans know as of yet. But as we have nothing else to go on, I'm going to use the info in species.tbl as it's presented as a reliable source.
-
I should point out, re: species.tbl entries, that the REDACTED information from AoA has been...un-redacted.
-
I'm not entirely convinced "Ken" is a Vishnan. Advocating the destruction of an entire branch of humanity doesn't seem to be a very 'Preserver' thing to do. Not to mention that Shivan com node in the dream sequence... The Shivans could be fighting fire with fire... perhaps a result of Bosch and ETAK?
I'm actually entirely convinced Ken is a Shivan. Noemi's bloodlust later on in the campaign seems to make that quite clear.
And of course, the Shivans are monitoring the situation and perhaps are already on the move. While they cannot be defeated by traditional military means, I hope any "Deus Ex" resolution doesn't revolve around the human race all holding hands and making nice with the bug-eyed genocidal monsters. The Shivans have already abandoned their place in the galactic order of things according to AoA, and are pursuing their own agenda. For them to 'follow the rules' once humanity stops its great civil war would be an anticlimax. I have faith in the story telling of the BP team, I just hope it doesn't completely marginalize the GTVA's perspective that the Shivans are simply too dangerous to leave humanity's fate to their "good graces", since they don't exist.
I really doubt the BP team would pull something as cheap as that.
-
The "Shivans are the good guys" is about as dramatically interesting as a rock in the face.
I agree, but for different reasons.
Namely we shouldn't be solving the Shivan mystery because that retroactively destroys anything interesting in the canonical games.
-
AoA played in a parallel universe. We don't know wether the fights over there have any influence on the GTVA/UEF universe.
And from a certain point of view the Shivans always were the good guys. They wipe out those that would kill the weaker species, so they can flourish.
Do you consider the people who almost wiped out the wolves in Europe in the past evil? They were doing what they thought was necessary to safe their families after all, no matter that their judgement was based on wrong information. For the Shivans we are the wolves and the species to come are their children - untill they in turn become the wolves.
Good and evil, morality, justice.... it all depends on point of view. What for one person is a sin, is a virtue for another (like killing unbeliefers for example... or killing wolves). A very cynical person could even say that such concepts as good, evil and moral are just a way to force your own ideals onto others. Make everyone the same and chocke off individualism.
That there is no definate good and evil in Blue Planet is one of the things tha apeal to me so much. Instead of saying "we are good. shivans are evil" or "UEF good, GTVA evil" all sides have valid reasons for what they do. It provokes thinking about and discussion the situations and points of view of each side.
They're murdering monsters.
What did the Shivans do? Massmurder, indisciminate killings and genocide. And all that towards some purpose, not for fun.
Humankind? Massmurder, genocide, indiscriminate killings, torture, rape, use of weapons with horrific aftereffects (nuclear bombs, chemical weapons, napalm,....). And all that for petty matters or even for pleasure.
If there are murdering monsters lose in this universe, I fear they are us. And looking back at our history makes one wonder if the Shivans arn't justified in wiping us out to make room for a better species.
On the other hand, there always were, and hopefully always will be, those of us who don't go that path, which might make us worth saving.
Shivan weapon fallout is far more horrific than anything humanity has created. Shivans kill stars and planets. There was no sign from the Great War that Humanity sought the genocide of the Vasudans, quite the opposite. There were Vasudan agents working for the GTA. Humanity was also not a malevolent force like the Ancients, conquering thousands of star systems over thousands of years. And since when do "sufficently advanced races" have the right to exterminate other sentient life because they don't 'live up' to their moral expectations? Nobody argues for the extinction of Hyenas because they devour their own infants. It's a ridiculous argument anyway you slice it. If the Shivans are the galaxy's antibodies, then they currently have an auto-immune disease. They are focused on our annihilation even though the 'infection' had barely begun to manifest.
-
The "Shivans are the good guys" is about as dramatically interesting as a rock in the face.
I agree, but for different reasons.
Namely we shouldn't be solving the Shivan mystery because that retroactively destroys anything interesting in the canonical games.
I don't believe a solution has been presented (or promised).
-
Ah, but does that mean you support the conception of Shivans as good guys?
Because that also rather ruins FS1 and FS2.
-
Ah, but does that mean you support the conception of Shivans as good guys?
Because that also rather ruins FS1 and FS2.
Does that mean that you prefer pistachio ice cream to Rocky Road?
Because that seems to follow just about as well from anything you've said. :p
Good guys, bad guys...we don't really do those.
-
Right, I mean, if the Shivans are totally justified in wiping out us poor monkeys, then what's the point of Freespace or Freespace 2? Why resist the destroyers when it's better that TEVs lay down and die?
Of course, that means you trust a totally alien xenophobic genocidal sense of 'morality' that may or may not be completely insane after having been kicked off the galaxy's coolest triumvirate.
Life's worth fighting for, warts and all.
Just because a solution to the Shivan problem hasn't been found, doesn't mean it won't be. It just means conventional military methods won't win *alone*. Just look at the Borg or Shadows or Zentradi or other all powerful sci-fi race. There's more than one way to skin a cat, but that doesn't mean military force isn't a nessecity to survive long enough to find it. That's what Freespace 1 and 2 were about, the quest to stay alive.
-
Ah, but does that mean you support the conception of Shivans as good guys?
Because that also rather ruins FS1 and FS2.
Does that mean that you prefer pistachio ice cream to Rocky Road?
Because that seems to follow just about as well from anything you've said. :p
Good guys, bad guys...we don't really do those.
Come come, of course you do. A story without good antagonists isn't much of a story. And BP has that in spades. You can define Shivans as evil, or not. Regardless, since most people are of the opinion that maybe the human race doesn't deserve to be utterly obliterated, they are a titanic force that must be fought nonetheless.
-
Ah, but does that mean you support the conception of Shivans as good guys?
Because that also rather ruins FS1 and FS2.
Does that mean that you prefer pistachio ice cream to Rocky Road?
Because that seems to follow just about as well from anything you've said. :p
Good guys, bad guys...we don't really do those.
Come come, of course you do. A story without good antagonists isn't much of a story. And BP has that in spades. You can define Shivans as evil, or not. Regardless, since most people are of the opinion that maybe the human race doesn't deserve to be utterly obliterated, they are a titanic force that must be fought nonetheless.
A good story (usually) requires good antagonists - either of the man vs. man, man vs. nature or man vs. himself variety. (You'll note that in two of those instances the antagonists don't even have to be separate characters from the protagonists.)
But none of those require 'bad guys'. And as you yourself are saying, the question of antagonism is very different from the question of 'good' or 'bad'.
Steele is, from the reactions we've had, an excellent antagonist, but he is not a bad evil guy who does things for no reason.
-
With enemies such as other humans and Vasudans, absolutely. Steele is a magnificent bastard, but that's what you'd expect of a legendary military commander. And a great deal of the background prose points out each side has legitimate reasons for fighting.
That "good and bad is a point of view" sort of relativism I find falls flat when mecha glowy red Ctulthu spider monsters come around every few million years and cull every race that doesn't pass their little 'test'. :shaking:
-
With enemies such as other humans and Vasudans, absolutely. Steele is a magnificent bastard, but that's what you'd expect of a legendary military commander. And a great deal of the background prose points out each side has legitimate reasons for fighting.
That "good and bad is a point of view" sort of relativism I find falls flat when mecha glowy red Ctulthu spider monsters come around every few million years and cull every race that doesn't pass their little 'test'. :shaking:
If you want to know how we're going to explain the actions of the Shivans - or whether we're going to explain them at all - I'm afraid we can't talk about that right now. But I will say that whitewashing anybody as the good guys is clearly not on our agenda, as anyone who'd played War in Heaven should be able to tell by now.
And I'll note that in terms of the broad classes of storytelling conflict, war with the Shivans has really been treated more as 'man vs. environment' than anything else so far.
-
Well, I wasn't really expecting direct answers, that's what the rest of your projects are for!
But that's good to hear the Shivans are being treated more like a force of nature or a plague than some sort of morality omniscient cosmic janitor that sweeps away the naughty races every so often.
In fact, I think that plague analogy is a good way to put it.
Are virus and bacteria a part of the natural order of things?
Yes.
Do they routinely kill humans?
Yes.
Does that mean people will let them do as they please?
No, that's why people create antibiotics, vacinations, etc. You might not be able to get rid of them, it would probably be a disaster to life as we know it to try, but that doesn't stop humans from trying to save themselves. Its in our nature to survive, no matter the odds.
-
It's a very difficult topic to talk about without spoiling, so all I can say is 'trust us'.
-
Antagonist != bad.
Protagonist != good.
Light != good.
Dark != bad.
Any conclusion we draw here != BP canon.
We can speculate, but when a BP team member comes in to tell us we might not be on the right track, I'd take that as a hint. :nervous:
-
While stereotypical stories have a distinct 'good' and 'bad' sides, many good ones don't need to. In fact, WiH already stepped on "Grey and Grey morality"would mean that neither side is entirely 'good' or 'bad'.
The original FS canon has so far given us no clue about the Shivans' goals or purpose. So far as the terrans are concerned, they are a force of destruction and there are no explanation whether they are 'good' or 'bad', at least until we know what happen to Bosch and what he is doing.
-
Shivans are trying to save the universe!
-
Shivans are trying to save the universe!
So are the Gefs.
-
And see, that's something I can totally get behind. I like the Shivans as forces of nature, that's why they're so scary to begin with!
Since I believe this has sort of come full circle... what exactly is the GEFs agenda? They want to blow the crap out of Unbutu because they exploit natural resources or somesuch? If that's the case, why work with the GTVA, who wants very much to turn Sol into a giant munitions arsenal.
-
The enemy of my enemy...
-
And see, that's something I can totally get behind. I like the Shivans as forces of nature, that's why they're so scary to begin with!
Since I believe this has sort of come full circle... what exactly is the GEFs agenda? They want to blow the crap out of Unbutu because they exploit natural resources or somesuch? If that's the case, why work with the GTVA, who wants very much to turn Sol into a giant munitions arsenal.
They have an interesting philosophy; check out their techroom entry.
'Interesting' in this case may mean 'a bit nutty', but some of their objectives are not totally unsound.
-
Their ideology makes sense up until the point where they say we should all live in comets. I mean, sure, comets might have brought life to Earth, but really?
Stupid Gefs...
The only good thing about them is they has kewl ships.
-
From the mission file, presumably in the intended order but idk:
CUT
You're doing it wrong (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=derp). This is how it goes:
the voices in the womb spoke wordlessly
infancy is amnesia yet you remember them
as a child you were told i was only in your head
yet where else are voices ever heard?
you are not mad nor have you ever been
you are no mystic you are a made thing
gifted with an ear for the quantum whisper
you draw a line between two worlds
the world of fighters and armor and briefings
and the world of dreams and portents
but this dreamscape, this child's phantasmorgaria
is a glimpse into a world just as real and deadly
a place of strategems and treachery and power
that seems to you as strange as a briefing would seem
to an ape REMEMBER THIS
those who walk among infinite worlds
must still wage war do not be lulled by the
soft words of mysticism and spirituality
we too struggle with our own war in heaven (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Blue_Planet:_War_in_Heaven)
our purpose is unclear the ancient design fails
we perform bakhti and tapasya
in order to divine the will of those who
passed deeper eons ago leaving us to preserve
our brothers in dance to their frigid watch
at the borders where worlds fray and blur together
brothers, brothers paramatma! why are you
so cold? (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=4557) you tend to the walls and the clockwork
while we, the gardeners execute your will upon
all the life within. you maintain the old plan
but do not pretend surprise when we cast it aside
your creators blundered once and in doing so
unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads
of the cosmos we must prepare.
[/color]
BALANCE MUST BE MAINTAINED. THE ORIGINAL PLAN IS IMPERATIVE. WE SEEK THE ONE OUT OF MANY THE ONE WHO CAN MATCH THE BRAHMANS OF OLD. ENLIGHTENMENT IS A THRESHOLD THE CATALYST FOR AMALGAMATION, FOR THE SINGULARITY THAT BINDS WHOLE SPECIES INTO THE UNION WE SEEK. THE OLD BURNT THE COSMOS CLEAN IN THE WARS OF THEIR YOUTH NEVER AGAIN WILL THAT PRICE BE PAID.
[/color]
-
Their ideology makes sense up until the point where they say we should all live in comets. I mean, sure, comets might have brought life to Earth, but really?
Stupid Gefs...
The only good thing about them is they has kewl ships.
Actually, given that cometary halos overlap at interstellar distances, you could use drifting cometary habitats as the means of a very slow but very steady diaspora without subspace travel.
-
Okay that's it. That's a bloody Shivan if I've ever heard one... which we haven't until now. :p
No need to confirm or deny, just a hunch. ;7
-
If I am a billions years old species, having seen immature species destroy eachother every odd century with no thought through motivation, while my role is that of being a destroyer I probably wouldn't bother to explain to these warring species why I destroy them in the first place. As that destroyer I know I have reasons to do so, but the 'primitive' species which I destroy could not even come to comprehend the magnitude of responsibilities I as destroyer might have. They'd simply judge the destroyers as "evil invaders". Perhaps, just perhaps, just before that species would become extinct they would realize that they brought that faith upon themselves by exterminating life which could have grown into something magnificent. After all these warring species waged war and destroyed people, while they do not even comprehend the slightest about the cosmos as a whole, unlike the destroyers.
To put it into a metaphor, I see the Shivans as administrators in a huge forum community. They got to ban the trolls, because the trolls chase the newbies away. Imagine what a loss it would be if one of those newbies would have grown into a really contributing member, but got chased away by a troll. And if that newbie turns into a troll after all, the administrators can still ban him.
-
Nice mataphor there :lol:
With one exception: Forum administrators are the ones that the forum belongs to, or working for that proprietor. The Shivans do now own the galaxy!
Shivan weapon fallout is far more horrific than anything humanity has created. Shivans kill stars and planets. There was no sign from the Great War that Humanity sought the genocide of the Vasudans, quite the opposite.
I wasn't speaking about the GTA, I was speaking about Humanity, including us as in you, me and everyone who lives today. You know... real history. When the Lucifer glassed Vasuda you either died or you didn't. There are no reports from Vasudans dying a lingering, immensly painfull death by radiation poisoning.
And yes, Humanity did commit genocide. Maybe not against the Vasudans, but against each other. I don't think I really need to come up with examples here, right?
And since when do "sufficently advanced races" have the right to exterminate other sentient life because they don't 'live up' to their moral expectations?
Interresting question coming from a race that did their part in wiping out other species on their lovly little homeplanet of earth. And most of them were not wiped out because of moral expectations, but just for short time profit.
Anyway, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I am not arguing that the Shivans are the good guys, just saying that they aren't absolutely black-and-white evil. Or more importantly, that we aren't really that much better.... at the moment anyway, though there is always hope for a better future.
But in one point I agree with you: They have no right to wipe out other species, just because they don't fit into their moral prerequisits. Just as we have no right to exterminate the whales and countless other species on our planet, for whatever reason.
As for the Gefs, the GTVA's motives are unknown. And even if the GTVA turns out to be the same as the UEF in regards to nature, they won't have lost anything. But in the meantime, they profit from their alliance. And if the UEF is beaten, the GTVA might allow them to travel through Delta Serpentis into some uninhabitad system, were they could live their lifes as they wish it.
-
The Shivans do now own the galaxy!
How do you know? :nervous:
They certainly are good at owning.
-
As for the Gefs, the GTVA's motives are unknown. And even if the GTVA turns out to be the same as the UEF in regards to nature, they won't have lost anything. But in the meantime, they profit from their alliance. And if the UEF is beaten, the GTVA might allow them to travel through Delta Serpentis into some uninhabitad system, were they could live their lifes as they wish it.
Maybe the GTVA promised them Halley's Comet. :P
-
To put it into a metaphor, I see the Shivans as administrators in a huge forum community. They got to ban the trolls, because the trolls chase the newbies away. Imagine what a loss it would be if one of those newbies would have grown into a really contributing member, but got chased away by a troll. And if that newbie turns into a troll after all, the administrators can still ban him.
And apparently the admins saw an user (Noemi) that's a known member of a troll group they have been banning recently posting like one of them. They grow curious and decide to PM said user...
-
Actually, given that cometary halos overlap at interstellar distances, you could use drifting cometary habitats as the means of a very slow but very steady diaspora without subspace travel.
Given that a large gravitational mass is needed in order to execute even intra-system subspace jumps[1] (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_2_intelligence_entries#Subspace), does that mean they're willing to basically stand themselves on a godforsaken piece of rock light-years from the nearest civilization?
Or is that the point?
-
Gev's remind me a lot of the Retro's from Origin's Privateer.
-
The old burnt the cosmos clean in the wars of their youth
Never again will that price be paid.
Shivan supernova weapon, much? Or a predecessor, perhaps?
-
Actually, given that cometary halos overlap at interstellar distances, you could use drifting cometary habitats as the means of a very slow but very steady diaspora without subspace travel.
Given that a large gravitational mass is needed in order to execute even intra-system subspace jumps[1] (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/FreeSpace_2_intelligence_entries#Subspace), does that mean they're willing to basically stand themselves on a godforsaken piece of rock light-years from the nearest civilization?
Or is that the point?
More or less the point.
-
The old burnt the cosmos clean in the wars of their youth
Never again will that price be paid.
Shivan supernova weapon, much? Or a predecessor, perhaps?
We too struggle with our own War in Heaven
Also, the Brahmans of old. They had the same conflict with someone else (the Shivans?) the GTVA/UEF is having now
-
Or maybe they had a war with another very advanced species in which they "burned the cosmos clear". After they wiped out their enemy they realized what they have done and created the Shivans and Vishnans (or chose and altered them) to be the galaxies guardians and make sure the races to come won't be able to repeat their mistake. And then they went away.
Writing it out like this reminds me a lot of Babylon 5.... though there are quite severe differences.
-
That makes sense actually. But I don't think it was another "very advanced species" given that there is no mention of them. Perhaps some other great danger to the universe had to be dealt with.
-
Since there is no evidence of the Brahmans ever existing, why should it be a problem that no evidence of their enemies remain? Maybe that war was fought so meny eons ago that nothing survived all the time, or they simply lived and fought on the other side of the galaxy :P
-
The evidence of the Brahmans ever existing is the mention of them by Shivans/Vishnans. Their "enemies" never get a specific mention at all, and it may not even be a separate group.
-
Not sure wether this belongs in spoiler tags, but I rather err on the side of caution because of the mention of a special "friend".
Since the Shivans and Vishnans would have been created after the war was over, why should they know anything about the enemy? Or more importantly, why should they mention it to Bei or Laporte?
But a civil war among the Brahmans is also possible. With all the immesurable time since then the original purpose of the Shivans and Vishnans could have been warped into judging the species as a whole instead of factions.
Maybe that's even the reason why the Vishnans and Shivans no longer like each other. Instead of eliminating the warmongers among a species, the Shivans simply whipe the whole race out. That certainly would fit the evidence of FS1 and AoA, though the things Ken said would indicate something else (if he/she/it is indeed Shivan).
-
The UEF can terraform, the Vasudans lost Vasuda Prime.. while the Vasudans are known to move on from their losses, would terraform technology not be tempting to them?
-
The UEF can terraform, the Vasudans lost Vasuda Prime.. while the Vasudans are known to move on from their losses, would terraform technology not be tempting to them?
If you look at the GTVA, it's clear (and assumed in BP canon) that they must have the capability to do some pretty heavy terraforming already, considering the amount of systems they have settled. One has to conclude that even though the Vasudans have the ability to make Vasuda Prime habitable again, they chose not to do so.
-
My bad!
-
My bad!
Not your bad. I think Vasuda Prime may very well be past recovery. Most terraformed planets probably have reasonably receptive biospheres coming in and just need some tweaking. Vasuda Prime on the other hand is...well, probably literally all shot to hell.
-
My bad!
Not your bad. I think Vasuda Prime may very well be past recovery. Most terraformed planets probably have reasonably receptive biospheres coming in and just need some tweaking. Vasuda Prime on the other hand is...well, probably literally all shot to hell.
Is there radiation preventing life from returning, or have all of the complex organic compounds been burnt up, too?
-
Well, off the top of my head, I imagine that the planet's still in a nuclear 'winter' and that it's going to be lethally radioactive for a long time to come.
-
Vasuda prime was already a pretty harsh place to begin with.
-
I wonder if it even holds resources. I can imagine that it still makes a good site to strip-mine (unless more than just subsurface resources would have been combusted and destroyed).
-
... since when beam bombardment leave heavy nuclear radiations ? VP was just glassed by lots of heat from the beams.
-
... since when beam bombardment leave heavy nuclear radiations ? VP was just glassed by lots of heat from the beams.
Well the beams are basically particle weapons. I'd need to actually go through the physics to be sure, but I suspect the beams as well as the impact effects might generate some lasting radioactivity...though I'll admit I'm not totally confident.
-
... when did I last saud that FS beams aren't real beams but plasma caught in a magnetic bottle ?
Although I admit I don't know what radioactive effects plasma may have.
-
... when did I last saud that FS beams aren't real beams but plasma caught in a magnetic bottle ?
Although I admit I don't know what radioactive effects plasma may have.
Well, you should probably be aware that's only canon in BP, where we said that beams are plasma caught in a magnetic bottle. In terms of FS canon in general we have no idea what beams are.
-
Problem is, we don't really know how the planet-blasting beam the Lucy used works. At the very least, the amount of energy pumped into VP's atmosphere during the bombardment should be enough to do some catastrophic damage to the ecosystem...
-
If you were to try and apply hard science to it, which I might add is a bit silly...
Beam cannons are most likely pools of plasma driven direct from the drive core of the fusion reactors. They pool at the surface of a beam cannon, aligned in an extremely powerful magnetic pinch, and then channeled. Vastly beyond our own technology, of course, since the magnetic fields required to contain that plasma would require complete enclosure. The trick would be to stop the particles dispersing quickly once they reach vacuum (plasma is basically a gas). You could minimize this by forcing them to relativistic speeds, done by exciting the particles and then projecting them through a sufficiently lengthy magnetic bottle ala a particle accelerator. By the time the dispersal effect has kicked in, the damage has already been done.
The charge up time would be the pooling procedure, bottling them up and getting them even more superheated and excited, essentially forming a kind of self sustaining fusion reaction, crushing the particles tighter and tighter. The unknown part would be after releasing the particles, how to direct them which is likely the trick the GTVA picked up from the Shivans - some form of superspace manipulation technology. Slasher beams would be easier to implement since you could produce a pool of particles and direct only those that had a specific stochastic direction producing a weaker, but mobile beam.
As for the actual effects, we already know GTVA reactors use gas giants for fuel, so any beams are likely to be pre or post-fusion helium/hydrogen nuclei with their attendant electrons contained in the flow. That's relatively easy to figure out the effects, since what you're basically doing is producing a massive stream of alpha and beta radiation together with constantly fusing particles. It's safe to assume that since the beam is magnificently directed, the GTVA have figured out some way of extending magnetic bottles to combat range, which would mean that the nuclear fusion process would still be ongoing midflight. The glow of the beam comes from the photonic effects due to faster particles smashing into slower particles, though strictly speaking it should be Bremmstrahlung radiation and simple photonic effects from the overwhelming heat radiating into space - incandescent like the sun. Which explains the extremely hot core of the beam, which is brilliant white, if not the varying colours on the outside - those may be due to plasma temperature but unlikely.
Then you've basically got a stream of light nuclei and electrons travelling at say 0.9c smashing into other nuclei and shields. Assuming no net slowdown of the beam and that dispersal is the only problem, the raw kinetic damage of a metric ton of particles travelling at a group velocity of 0.9c assuming I remember my relativistic physics (if I dropped the lambda you don't want to know what numbers would come up) right is tantamount to around 10 gigatons of TNT. Add on the additional heat damage caused by fusion elements and you arrive at around the right numbers as represented in the original game - surprisingly good of the devs I might add.
What you're looking at then is billions of relativistic electrons and protons and alpha particles all travelling at an average velocity of 0.9c with electrons travelling somewhat faster due to their lower mass which means massive surface ionization of all elements within beam width as well as seismic compression waves and atmospheric heating. Any fissionables would likely instantly fission under the bombardment of so many charged particles adding to the radiation damage. Mass ionization of the atmosphere would occur on deep layers depending on beam use.
There probably wouldn't be that much radioactive damage, but atmospheric heating alone would devastate the ecology of the planet, and the resulting seismic activity (likely as a result of sustained beam damage vapourizing through to the mantle) would render most cities and areas unhabitable for years. By comparison a Sathanas is capable of something like a 120 gigaton broadside.
-
That's basically what we've envisioned beam tech to be in BP. If you postulate that some kind of magnetic (or technobatic) battle is required to keep the beam confined, you can even justify the ridiculously short beam ranges - somehow the particles all, uh, diffuse rapidly and unpredictably once the bottle runs out. :nervous:
-
That's pretty much what would happen. The beam would narrow out as the outer layers that aren't driven by the particles behind them would suddenly expand in an unconstrained direction when no longer constrained by the magnetic bottle. It is the bottle that keeps them on the straight and narrow. There are some interesting field equations that produce similar effects - beams actually occur fairly naturally in plasma and relativistic plasma jets are observed around intense magnetic field sources.
You'd only need to somehow figure out a technobabble means of extending the bubble out of a few klicks to produce those kind of energies. The interesting thing about it of course is the energy would disperse in every direction when not contained but the core of the beam would actually keep going. There is already a technobabble solution to this in the Freespace universe - additional specific subspace solutions to the Maxwell equations, if you wanted to chuck that into the campaign tech room.
In other words. If I were the UEF, I've be terrified of what would happen once the GTVA truly started building powerful beam cannons. Their tech is way beyond the UEF's. It would also explain why no UEF ships are equipped with them, since the technology would require extensive study of Shivan subspace based technologies to even understand, and that is something the GTVA have had in spades.
That's part of what I liked about Blue Planet, by the way. I liked the technical explanations :)
It's ironically much harder to come up with a technical explaination for the numerous xaser and laser weapons in the game that seem to have both physical blobs and a travel time but oh well.
-
Yeah, what we did was pretend that when it said 'laser' or 'xaser' it meant 'laser-excited' or 'xaser-excited' plasma weapon. Hooray us!
-
In other words. If I were the UEF, I've be terrified of what would happen once the GTVA truly started building powerful beam cannons. Their tech is way beyond the UEF's. It would also explain why no UEF ships are equipped with them, since the technology would require extensive study of Shivan subspace based technologies to even understand, and that is something the GTVA have had in spades.
The one thing I don't quite understand about this point, though, is that Sol was the center of Terran space during the Great War, when all of the data on Shivan technology was collected in the first place. All of those scans of the Lucifer you collected during "Playing Judas," coupled with analysis of the Lucifer's attacks on allied forces, would have gone straight to GTA High Command in Sol. They also would have access to whatever pieces of the Lucifer managed to survive after its destruction (probably not all that much, but you never know). Given how the "fringe colonies" of the GTVA were able to reverse-engineer and implement beam cannons on a widespread scale, I have a hard time seeing how the far more industrialized Sol system couldn't do the same. The data on those GTI experiments couldn't all have been lost when the node was sealed, could it?
-
There are indeed some hints in BP canon as to what happened to that information. Unfortunately the weapons development side of it probably got a bit jumbled up when the Sol GTA was undercut by its own constituent powers.
-
Hmm...maybe a little group called the Feyadeen?
-
So in BP canon a beam is useless once the magnetic bottle doesn't surround it....
So does that mean that in theory the UEF, with the knowledge and parts they gained form the two Anemois, could develop a device that disrupts the magnetic bottles and thus prevent any beam from being fired in an area around the device?
That would certainly be a step up from the way the UEF jamed beams in WiH 1, which left slashers and AAA beams active.
Another wild idea, though not so much as a UEF vs GTVA weapon, but rather a possible anti-shivan weapon.
Could a ship with beam turrets just initiate those magnetic bottles without actually firing the beam?
If yes, those could be used to interfere with enemy beams, leading them astray.
Or maybe they could even stop the beams "forward movement" by proceting such a magnetic field a millimeter in front of the turret, thus causing the plasma to backfire and take out the turret it came out of and melting a piece of hull around the turret with it in the process.
Or course the enemy could then employ something like different frequencies or somesuch, to prevent this method form being the ultimate weapon and make sure it can only be used a few times as a story device, while not working most of the time.
-
In other words. If I were the UEF, I've be terrified of what would happen once the GTVA truly started building powerful beam cannons. Their tech is way beyond the UEF's. It would also explain why no UEF ships are equipped with them, since the technology would require extensive study of Shivan subspace based technologies to even understand, and that is something the GTVA have had in spades.
The one thing I don't quite understand about this point, though, is that Sol was the center of Terran space during the Great War, when all of the data on Shivan technology was collected in the first place. All of those scans of the Lucifer you collected during "Playing Judas," coupled with analysis of the Lucifer's attacks on allied forces, would have gone straight to GTA High Command in Sol. They also would have access to whatever pieces of the Lucifer managed to survive after its destruction (probably not all that much, but you never know). Given how the "fringe colonies" of the GTVA were able to reverse-engineer and implement beam cannons on a widespread scale, I have a hard time seeing how the far more industrialized Sol system couldn't do the same. The data on those GTI experiments couldn't all have been lost when the node was sealed, could it?
The way I look at it is that the Shivans basically fell apart after the destruction of the Lucifer, and that it is hinted even in mainstream canon that Shivan weapons operate on similar principles to each other. Shivan subspace technology is very wide spread, so after hunting down the remnants of Shivan forces, coupled with any captured data from the GTI rebellion (if you take Silent Threat Reborn as canon, the remnants of the construction platforms), and you get a massive leap in technological prowess.
The Sol sector would have data collected on the Lucifer's beam cannons, the remnants of what survived the explosion, and not an awful lot else. The GTVA would have all of that, the Vasudan science corp, a far more militarized attitude, working examples of Shivan weapons technology, the GTI, and more importantly the desire to reproduce the cannons. The GTVA also had Vasudan science as well, and it is hinted that it was Vasudans who first produced workable beam technology and were the first to effectively deploy it on a warship (the Sobek).
Having a centralized government desperate to prevent another Great War would do wonders for weapons development. I also kind of hope for something of a sucker punch for the UEF, and that attempting to reproduce ETAK does them the same kind of vicious pain it did to the remnants of the NTF. It'd be pretty awesome to see UEF fighters/capital ships in a staggered line with GTVA beam cannons spraying at Shivan cruisers.
Hopefully the Shivans will ruin the party in the next campaign.
-
So in BP canon a beam is useless once the magnetic bottle doesn't surround it....
So does that mean that in theory the UEF, with the knowledge and parts they gained form the two Anemois, could develop a device that disrupts the magnetic bottles and thus prevent any beam from being fired in an area around the device?
That would certainly be a step up from the way the UEF jamed beams in WiH 1, which left slashers and AAA beams active.
I obviously have nothing to do with BP canon, but considering beam cannons are a pretty wild idea as they are in the form Freespace has them in (particle accelerators are actually much easier to design) you'd need a pretty powerful magnetic field to turn aside the kind of particles coming at them. The trick of beam cannons would be that the field and its projected form (the technobabble bit) could only be maintained at suitable levels of field strength in a straight line due to the specific solution of the field equations being employed. Employing a field of equivilent strength but spread over a larger area would require more preparation and if they can do that, they may as well equip beam cannons themselves.
Another wild idea, though not so much as a UEF vs GTVA weapon, but rather a possible anti-shivan weapon.
Could a ship with beam turrets just initiate those magnetic bottles without actually firing the beam?
Possibly, but you'd only deviate it over the length of the crossection of the beam.
If yes, those could be used to interfere with enemy beams, leading them astray.
Or maybe they could even stop the beams "forward movement" by proceting such a magnetic field a millimeter in front of the turret, thus causing the plasma to backfire and take out the turret it came out of and melting a piece of hull around the turret with it in the process.
The situations that I described in my previous post are entirely fictional as no such column of magnetism is even theoretically possible without numerous external sources which would be where the subspace technobabble comes in. If subspace takes on the idea of brane theory, you could with some technobabble reduce a three dimensional object in space time to a perimeter representation of it on the higher order dimension, representing a tunnel between two points, through which magnetic fields would propagate linearly. Of course, it'd be quite hard to block off then. I also have a horrible feeling it'd progagate in every direction still, but nevermind.
I'm not even sure a disc of magnetism is possible. They're probably best off with the disruptor guns they've got.
-
Possibly, but you'd only deviate it over the length of the crossection of the beam.
But what exactly would happen at the place the "bottles" meet?
Would the "defener bottle" rip a hole into or otherwise destablize the fields of the attacker and thus lessen the intenity of the beam from that point on, because plasma would leak out the sides of the "attacker bottle"?
Or could they even cancel each other out completely at the point of contact, resulting in the plasma dispersing at that point, the same as if it reached the maximum distance of the "attacker bottle"?
I'm not even sure a disc of magnetism is possible.
They don't really have to make a disc.
Instead of generating a magnetic bottle with nothing down the middle, they could generate a "full" magnetic cylinder ending directly on top of the enemy beamturret. That would prevent the plasma from ever going inside the enemy "bottle" or if the cylinder ends a bit in front of the turret, there would be an enclosed room into which the turret pumps more and more plasma.
At worst case for the firing ship, the plasma couldn't go forward and thus either go backward or bust out of confinement in every direction once the preassure inside get's too high, thus damaging the firing ship. At best case the fields are much stronger close to the origin of the fields and thus the bottle has more integrity than the block, which would make the plasma punch through the block while being contained in the bottle.
Unless of course the fields of the two ships interfere with each other somehow, which would bring us back to the point above the 2nd quote.
-
Besides the science behind beams, I always assumed the initial beam weapons of the GTVA were very different from their Shivan counterparts, more primitive while the BP era beams may be closer to the Shivan version. I imagined that Shivans used advanced particle beams based on technology the GTVA barely understood in the second Shivan war while GTVA beams were more of a release of energy, focussed into a beam by compressing a lot of plasma in a core to gain a buildup of energy. After making the Kayser and understanding Shivan particle weaponry much better, I then imagined future beam technology of the BP era is perhaps closer to the Shivan equivalent. Seems I'm way off?
-
Not that far off. The BP-era beams are closer to their Shivan equivalents, whereas the earlier FS2-era ones were a bit more kludgy.
If you read the tech descriptions for some of the Shivan beams you'll find they're pretty scary.
-
Or play AoA without disarming the Shivan beams, that's even scarier :shaking:
-
But what exactly would happen at the place the "bottles" meet?
Would the "defener bottle" rip a hole into or otherwise destablize the fields of the attacker and thus lessen the intenity of the beam from that point on, because plasma would leak out the sides of the "attacker bottle"?
Or could they even cancel each other out completely at the point of contact, resulting in the plasma dispersing at that point, the same as if it reached the maximum distance of the "attacker bottle"?
I can't even begin to describe the behaviour of a gas under such an impulse. Essentially the magnetic field would form a bottling effect under normal circumstances, but it is entirely possible that you'd get outgassing in one direction, or you may even get some of the plasma travelling DOWN the other beam. Which would be self defeating. Everything I know about electromagnetism suggests the fields would keep propagating with only local disturbance so you'd get a brief interference/discontinuity.
I'll get back to you on that. The equations for modelling that kind of behaivour are.. unpleasant, if I remember right.
-
Shivan beams violate thermodynamics, yo. That has very scary implications. :nervous:
-
Shivan beams violate thermodynamics, yo. That has very scary implications. :nervous:
Considering their primaries do (recall the Kayser does stuff with Zero-Point energy), that's not terribly surprising, nor unpleasant since the GTVA can do it.
-
Shivan beams violate thermodynamics, yo. That has very scary implications. :nervous:
Considering their primaries do (recall the Kayser does stuff with Zero-Point energy), that's not terribly surprising, nor unpleasant since the GTVA can do it.
ZPE energy doesn't violate thermodynamics in any meaningful sense. In particular it doesn't violate the second law.
Nothing about the Kayser seems to suggest any sort of problem with thermodynamics since it requires vast energy input (a rather prohibitive amount, as gameplay shows.) The fact that whoever wrote its absurd technobabble threw in 'zero point energy' does not on its own provide any evidence of thermodynamic conflicts.
-
ZPE energy doesn't violate thermodynamics in any meaningful sense.
You can't get out of the game.
...except you can. :P
-
ZPE energy doesn't violate thermodynamics in any meaningful sense.
You can't get out of the game.
...except you can. :P
If you're quibbling about the wording, ZPE doesn't violate thermodynamics.
-
*snip long discussion of beams and planetary frying*
Most of this is pretty much correct; however, there are a few points I would like to add. If the beam plasma is from the main reactor core, the beam should be absolutely blinding; remember we're not dealing with temperatures like the surface of the Sun but the core of the Sun, which is about 1.5E7 K instead of 5780 K, or about four orders of magnitude higher. This puts its blackbody peak somewhere in the gamma region, and the optical output would look deep blue and fry everyone's eyeballs within about 100 km (note that I mean that quite literally...). Not to mention the Bremsstrahlung. Given the visuals do not support this in the least, either a) the plasma cools off something fierce during the channelling from the reactor core, or b) the plasma does not come from the reactor core, but rather another place (one of the cooling loops, perhaps?). Either that, or the cockpit windows on fighters aren't actually transparent, but are screens of some kind, and the computer produces all the visual and aural stimuli the pilot receives.
Throwing subspace in the mix to make the magnetic bottle is a good move, because such long cylinders of magnetic field away from any source are not possible in reality.
With regards to the planetary bombardment Vasuda Prime received, it happened what, 50 years ago by the time of BP? 32 years until the Second Incursion, and then another 20 or so until the construction of Sol Gate, right? Most of the radioactive isotopes produced would be gone by that point (the fallout produced by a nuclear weapon is pretty representative of what would be generated in this instance), so the remaining damage would be the sheer amount of energy pumped into the planet. We are given that the Shivans bombarded the planet for 13 hours, with probably 100 or so ships (SWAG, just so you know). The Lucifer would have made up most of the broadside; I'll assume it has half the energy output of a Sathanas, or about 60 GT every 10 seconds. The rest of the Shivan fleet probably just matches this, so call it ~10 GT per second being dumped on the surface. This makes the total amount of energy dropped on Vasuda Prime about 500,000 GT, or 500 teratons. For reference, the K-T asteroid released about 100 TT of energy. Therefore, as an approximate model, we can imagine what would happen if the Shivans merely dropped five 10 mile wide rocks on the planet instead. While the craters would probably still be molten 50 years later, the surface would by no means be uninhabitable, or even completely sterilized; after all, about 50% of Earth species survived the K-T event. Perhaps the Vasudans simply didn't want to bother, or wanted it left as a monument to the fallen or something like that.
I can't even begin to describe the behaviour of a gas under such an impulse. Essentially the magnetic field would form a bottling effect under normal circumstances, but it is entirely possible that you'd get outgassing in one direction, or you may even get some of the plasma travelling DOWN the other beam. Which would be self defeating. Everything I know about electromagnetism suggests the fields would keep propagating with only local disturbance so you'd get a brief interference/discontinuity.
I'll get back to you on that. The equations for modelling that kind of behaivour are.. unpleasant, if I remember right.
They needn't be. Just remember that B is a vector field, so the total field is found via simple vector addition. What you would want to do to disable the beam is provide an equal and opposite magnetic field, which would exactly cancel out the one the beam cannon is making. If their targeting is accurate enough, disabling beam cannons would be simple; simply aim your cannons at theirs, turn them on, and supply no plasma. Even if it is not a perfectly aligned shot, it should still provide enough of a disruption to either severely reduce the beam power reaching its target or deflect the beam away from its intended target. Of course, you would want to make sure you are producing a field with the right helical spin; otherwise, you would create a chanelling effect bringing the beam right to your doorstep. The reason we never see something like this is because the targeting systems on capital ship beam weapons just aren't accurate enough to do this kind of thing.
Here's an idea for the BP staff: if the UEF develop and/or capture beam cannons, maybe they could realize this and slave targeting to an AWACS vessel or something. Maybe that would provide data accurate enough to pull this off. It would make for an interesting mission, and make protecting your AWACS even more critical.
-
Maybe splt this into a BP-science thread? Just seems the whole plot fanspec derailed a little and changed into the science of beams discussion.
Did anyone speculate on what mission Al'fadil got captured? Maybe a foiled strike with Pegasus fighters, thus explaining how the GTVA allowed those to fall into UEF hands?
-
I was always hopeing, though not quite believed, that Al'Fadil only made it look like he was captured, while really defecting to the UEF. Though he would have left his subordinates in the dark of course, maybe because he feared some of them would still report him to the GTVA higher ups despite how much they like him.
What you would want to do to disable the beam is provide an equal and opposite magnetic field
If it was pure magnetics. But that would still leave the subspace component a big unknown.
-
If it was pure magnetics. But that would still leave the subspace component a big unknown.
To my mind, the subspace component is what helps generate the magnetic field in the first place, but has no other real effect besides that. It certainly isn't what damages the ship. Now, obviously how the subspace components of the respective beams interact is a big unknown, that's true, but given the behavior of beams that we can see in-game (beams can be extremely close to each other and have seemingly no effect on each other), I doubt it figures very highly in the scheme of things when determining beam behavior. My guess is that the subspace component behaves somewhat like space in GR does; curvature is additive, so two beam-producing regions of subspace passing next to each other simply produce two beams passing next to each other. Of course, I could be totally wrong about all of this, because we have no real idea what subspace actually is, how it affects things in normal space, etc. (well, there is the tech room technobabble, but I'm not paying attention to that).
-
And now for something completely different:
I just replayed AoA and the conversation between Shiva and Vishnu ticked off a train of thought.
Before the 14th battlegroup turned up the Shivans didn't put much effort into finding and destroying the Sanctuary.
But when the 14th arrived, they sent in massive numbers of ships and were even willing to fight Vishnans in order to destroy the GTVA ships rather than let them go back to their universe.
Did the Shivans know about the orders to invade Sol? Were they only attacking in such force, because the 14th battlegroups true purpose was to "destroy"?
-
Well keep in mind that prior to the sensory racket the Fourteenth's arrival was causing in the AO, the Shivans most likely didn't even know where the Sanctuary was half the time. In my view, it wasn't through lack of trying, I'm sure the Shivans must have given them hell at some stage to have wiped the ship's air wing almost clean, but I'm sure the majority of the time that the Sanctuary's crew were doing their best to keep their heads below the parapet.
And thus avoid being obliterated by the Shivans.
-
Yeah, I guess the Shivans were basically waiting for the Sanctuary to either die, or make some move that would betray their position. There was no rush.
-
Of course there's also the possibility that Norbert's correct and Shivan behavior had somehow changed in such a way as to make the Sanctuary no longer a priority. Interesting possibility.
-
True.
-
Okay.....
Interresting how the pretext to my actual question sparked off another interresting debate :lol:
What I really wanted to talk/speculate/ask about was, why the Shivans - knowing they came from another universe - were so dead set about destroying the 14th battlegroup rather than allowing them to return.
Because the Shivans didn't concentrate their firepower mainly on the Sanctuary I think the GTVA ships were the real reason for their attacks, but why destroy them instead of letting them go back to were they came from?
Did they know about the orders and thus considered them destroyers.
With Admiral Bei being at least somewhat "Nagari-capable" he might have unintentionally broadcast his thoughts to the Shivans, thus drawing their ire.
-
1) I think the moment Bei shot that lone fighter in Sol, that was a declaration of conflict. AFAIK that fighter did not cause harm did it? It might have simply been deactivated, but that does not have to be true. Maybe the Shivans tried to bait the humans, seeing what they would do, like a forum troll. :P
2) It might be that the Shivans were not aware of the 14th battlegroup being from another dimension until later, possibly if the Vishans spoke to them offscreen.
3) They may also have feared Bei, it's not impossible the Shivans have prophecies of their own. Bei might have fit in there, for all we know the Shivans may not WANT another species to replace the Brahams of old. Maybe they are even responsible for the Brahams death themselves, having played cloak and dagger all along and keeping face to the Vishans only as long as it serves their purpose, having lost their interest and genuine intent on keeping the balance long ago. People change, so why not an ancient species of destroyers which could have lost their trust in the concept of balance.
-
So. Since this hasn't been posted in for two days, I'd like to bring up another topic. The "deepness" that's mentioned several times in BP text.
Off the top of my head, there are two references to this "deepness":
The Jester was fixated upon something he called a ‘deepness’ which he could not describe.
Your creators blundered once, and in doing so, unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads of the cosmos.
This I can only assume to be the "larger problem" of which the Shivans are a symptom. That part of the Ken mission appears to me to be a Vishnan (or, the Vishnans) talking to a Shivan (or, the Shivans), implying that the Shivans' creators (possibly the Brahmans?) also created a hostile force or entity, presumably more powerful than the Vishnans or Shivans.
I can only assume that even if we don't directly fight this... whatever it is, it will become important in BP3 and possibly WiH2 (oh god if there's another cliffhanger...).
===EPILEPTIC TREES===
Project Nagari also refers to the "Broken Trinity" the Shivans are so obsessed with. I can only assume that means the Brahmans are gone or otherwise incapacitated and the Shivans and Vishnans are searching for a species to replace them. Based on the Universal Truth dialogue, The Vishnans think Humanity/Vasudanity have the potential to "ascend" in this fashion, and the Shivans do not. The Ken mission also tells us that the Shivans are abandoning the "ancient design"- possibly the Shivan/Vishnan/Brahman trinity itself?
Wild speculation: The Brahmans are the Shivans' creators, as possibly implied by the Ken mission, and also the accidental creators of this "deepness", which turned on them and destroyed them. The Shivans and Vishnans think that if another species can take the place of the Brahmans, they can fight the deepness.
===FURTHER QUESTIONS===
If this deepness is so powerful, why have we not seen it or its effects yet?
Possible answers: It has no interest in such lowly races as Humanity or Vasudanity. Or, it fights the Shivans and Vishnans on some other "plane of existence" (omfg that term is so overused) which we cannot observe.
If this deepness is so powerful, why would Humanity or Vasudanity be able to make a difference at all?
Possible answers: We can't, and the Shivans and Vishnans are simply grasping at straws. Or, we possess a certain mentality (creation) that the Shivans and Vishnans lack entirely.
===LOGICAL, IRREFUTABLE CONCLUSION===
BP3 is going to be frakking awesome.
[EDIT] removed dumb color from post >.>
-
Your post reminds me of the boundary wardens form the book "wizards first rule".
These people keep others away from the boundary, not to protect them, but to make sure the things inside the boundary don't get enough food to grow stronger.
Maybe that's the reason why the Shivans wipe out all those species, because the deepness can somehow use them to get stronger?
On the other hand that species could be benevolent and give the humans and vasudans the technology necessary to hold their own against the Shivans, which would naturally make them enemies of the Shivans (because they help their enemies) and the Vishnans (because giving a species technology for free is upsetting the balance).
On a completely differnt sidenote:
Did the 14th battlegroup collect any Vishnan debrie and bring it over to "our" universe by any chance?
Considering what happened to the Vishnan ships after the Keeper was destroyed, they might even have been able to collect a few fighters and bombers intact, if they had the time for it between the fight with the Sathanas and the track for the Sol jumpnode.
-
I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out. If there's one of them, they know very well there might be more of them (I always held the theory that the Shivans drew all the Sathanas Juggy's seen in Capella out of different subspace dimensions, for whatever purpose).
I think the deepness is the void, the end of all that excists in space and time. An anomaly or consequence which occus unless a balance is struck with a triad, not like the 'Transcend' story but more metaphorical, the result of species wiping eachother out or more seriously the Shivans doing that job entirely for them. With nothing left to destroy or preserve, the Shivans and Vishans have no more role and probably cease to excist. So the Shivans are too stuborn maybe to realize that or it is simply in their nature to destroy unless a creator keeps them in check. If the latter is the case, the Shivans are like a kid in a candy store, no-one to stop them and they might not feel like returning to a triad unless it is forced upon them.
-
The Deepness theory sounds suspiciously like the typical 4th Race theory of what the Shivans are a symptom of.
...I'm pretty sure BP team's not going with an answer that creatively bankrupt.
-
I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out.
Erm.... if the Sathanas jumps in already in range they won't have that chance. Remember the Psamtik!
About two seconds after the jumppoint opened, the first ship will be down. If events are scripted well, the Sath won't bother to shoot the already dead but still exploding ship again and so about 8 seconds after arrival, the Sath will annihilate the next ship.
That is assuming the Sath will use all four of it's beams on the same target. I havn't tried it out, but I could imagine firing two at each destroyer might surfice to take both down in a single salvo, then a second salvo to take down four corvettes and all that in less than 15 seconds.
-
I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out.
Actually it hadn't been 10 minutes when the Sathanas arrived, had it (well, it depends how long it takes you to take out the Lucifer, but it usually doesn't take that long, I think)? That's how long it takes for the engines to recharge. So they couldn't have left straight away.
-
As soon as possible ofcourse.
-
I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out.
Erm.... if the Sathanas jumps in already in range they won't have that chance. Remember the Psamtik!
About two seconds after the jumppoint opened, the first ship will be down. If events are scripted well, the Sath won't bother to shoot the already dead but still exploding ship again and so about 8 seconds after arrival, the Sath will annihilate the next ship.
That is assuming the Sath will use all four of it's beams on the same target. I havn't tried it out, but I could imagine firing two at each destroyer might surfice to take both down in a single salvo, then a second salvo to take down four corvettes and all that in less than 15 seconds.
This is all based on several kinda fallacial assumptions.
1) the Sathanas jumps in perfectly enough to be in range of every single ship it is hostile to, but far enough a way that none can maneuver out of the way.
2) The Sath will hit with all beams on the first salvo. Play Bearbating again, and sometimes the Phoenicia, a comparatively flimsy Hecate, will sometimes survive with hull left over (not often, but enough). Titans and Raynors are both more heavily armored, and hardly likely to just keel over like you want to think.
3) You're straight up ignoring that Sath vs. pair of destroyers has already been played out, and the destroyers won without any losses outside of fighter craft. :P
-
I'm guessing they got the hell out when the Sathanas showed up and warped out.
Erm.... if the Sathanas jumps in already in range they won't have that chance. Remember the Psamtik!
About two seconds after the jumppoint opened, the first ship will be down. If events are scripted well, the Sath won't bother to shoot the already dead but still exploding ship again and so about 8 seconds after arrival, the Sath will annihilate the next ship.
That is assuming the Sath will use all four of it's beams on the same target. I havn't tried it out, but I could imagine firing two at each destroyer might surfice to take both down in a single salvo, then a second salvo to take down four corvettes and all that in less than 15 seconds.
This is all based on several kinda fallacial assumptions.
1) the Sathanas jumps in perfectly enough to be in range of every single ship it is hostile to, but far enough a way that none can maneuver out of the way.
2) The Sath will hit with all beams on the first salvo. Play Bearbating again, and sometimes the Phoenicia, a comparatively flimsy Hecate, will sometimes survive with hull left over (not often, but enough).
I think that's because it's guardianed.
-
If it hits with three beams, yeah, if it wasn't guardianed, it would die anyway. However, I've seen it miss with two beams, and the Phoenicia jumped out with something like 8 hull left, which is above the guardian threshold.
-
Funny. I've never seen it die on my watch. Then again, I've never seen the Sathanas hit it with all four beams; it's always three. The Phoenicia always jumps out between 4-1% hull.
-
Play on a difficulty that is greater then Very Easy...
-
Guardian threshold is 4%, I think. On higher difficulties, if it hits with all four, it'll skip right past it to zero and the Phoenicia will die. If it only hits with two (on Medium, mind), I've seen it jump out with 8%.
-
Play on a difficulty that is greater then Very Easy...
I get it even on Insane, without ~ + SHIFT + I'ing the Phoenicia.
-
1) the Sathanas jumps in perfectly enough to be in range of every single ship it is hostile to
The Shivans occasionally did precicion jump in FS2, so it isn't that unlikely.
but far enough a way that none can maneuver out of the way.
Please show me any capital ship that can go from a standstill to a speed high enough to escape the Sath forward firing arc in less than 10 seconds!
2) The Sath will hit with all beams on the first salvo. Play Bearbating again, and sometimes the Phoenicia, a comparatively flimsy Hecate, will sometimes survive with hull left over (not often, but enough). Titans and Raynors are both more heavily armored, and hardly likely to just keel over like you want to think.
As was explained before, that ship is scripted to survive, even though that doesn't always activate in time safe the Pheonicia.
3) You're straight up ignoring that Sath vs. pair of destroyers has already been played out, and the destroyers won without any losses outside of fighter craft. Tongue
No I'm not ignoring it, but it seems you are ignoring some important facts about that mission.
First and most important, the Sath was stripped of it's heavy beams before it came in range. Oh btw. I just remembered something. One time I was too slow and the Orestes was hit by a single BFRed once. And it was down to about 30% hull, so yeah, two BFRed hit will kill a Raynor for sure.
Second, the destroyers were facing the Sathanas. If it jumps in on top, on the sides or behind them, they'll have to turn before they can fire their main beams. The thing is, it's unlikely they survive long enough to do so.
Third, even when facing the de-toothed Sathanas from the start, they still needed a bit of time to destory it. I don't remember exactly but let's say two minutes, though I'm pretty sure it was way more.
Do you seriously beliefe that they can survive several minutes in the forward firing arc of a Sath?
Edit:
I just tried a little FRED experiment. I put a Sath against a Raynor, Titan and Orion refit and was even nice enough to let the GTVA face toward the Sath.
Even without any scripts the Sath fired two beams each at the Raynor and Titan, destroying them in her opening salvo, though I underestimated the lifetime of the Sath beams... The big exploding started at 12 seconds into the mission.
Because it was unscripted, the Sath continued to fire at the exploding ships and so the Orion refit was only destroyed 48 seconds into the engagement.
Edit2:
With a little bit of scripting (like the Sath opeing up before even clearing the jumppoint) the whole battle was over in 20 seconds....
If you'd like I can attach the mission file, so you can see for yourself.
-
With a little bit of scripting (like the Sath opeing up before even clearing the jumppoint) the whole battle was over in 20 seconds....
If you'd like I can attach the mission file, so you can see for yourself.
See, this emphasizes the fallacy in your set up. You're assuming that everything will go perfectly for the Sath, and perfectly wrong for any opponents. Combat does not work that way.
-
With a little bit of scripting (like the Sath opeing up before even clearing the jumppoint) the whole battle was over in 20 seconds....
If you'd like I can attach the mission file, so you can see for yourself.
See, this emphasizes the fallacy in your set up. You're assuming that everything will go perfectly for the Sath, and perfectly wrong for any opponents. Combat does not work that way.
le yawn
Just like in real life, the scenarios that actually arise will probably be vastly more unpredictable and weird than anything gamed out beforehand. Trying to find any single definitive scenario is futile.
Nor are Shivan capabilities post-Capella known or understood.
-
With a little bit of scripting (like the Sath opeing up before even clearing the jumppoint) the whole battle was over in 20 seconds....
If you'd like I can attach the mission file, so you can see for yourself.
See, this emphasizes the fallacy in your set up. You're assuming that everything will go perfectly for the Sath, and perfectly wrong for any opponents. Combat does not work that way.
Not at all.
Because in my little FRED example the Sath jumped into the waiting guns of the GTVA ships. Hardly a perfect setting for the Sath, right?
But despite the Sathanas jumping into waiting guns it still took only between 8 and 11 % damage (I repeated the experiment three times... each time the same outcome, except the 3 % variation in the damage the Sath took).
The only thing that might be a problem for the Shivans is, jumping in at exactly the right distance. And exactly the right distance is still a very big window, considering the massive range of the BFRed.
The jump-in point is the only point of failure. If the Sathanas jumps in within range and angle to hit the GTVA ships with her main beams, it's game over. There is no room for best or worst case. It's simply over.
The AWACS might change that outcome, but since the 14th battlegroup didn't have one with them, that's a moot point.
The scripting I did wasn't to make the battle more favourbly for the Sathanas, but simply to overcome the stupidness of the AI.
Why should the Sathanas blast the debris of an already destroyed ship, when there are other ships in range, that can still fight?
-
Got to agree with Battuta's latter comment. Heck, for all we know the Shivans might be able to pluck and delete ships out of time and space if they truly want to. The moment they really feel threatened who knows what warfare they can unleash.
-
I always assumed the Sivans were so hellbent on blowing up the visitors from another dimension because they wanted to fulfill their role as "preserves through destruction". They didn't want to have them return with knowledge of another universe, out of the same reason you don't want people traveling back in time and creating paradoxes - sort of a "they are now tainted with knowledge of our universe, and that will change the fate of their universe if we let the return."
But, hell, I don't know. The Shivans are still a mystery.
The deepnes thing.. I never even put that much attention to it, but I guess it is pretty important.
Just makes me want to play WiH2 and BP3 all the more. The only thing I'm afraid of may be that whatever the answers are, they will probably never live up to the mystery - just because the mystery is that awesome.
-
[/lurk]
:bump:
(Because this seems like the most appropriate thread)
Crazy speculation...
Suppose the Tevs give up on preserving Sol's infrastructure (no idea why they would do this, but w/e). Suppose they just say to heck with it, and they bomb the crap out of Earth. Maybe not as bad as what the Shivans did to Vasuda Prime, but enough to cause some extinctions. Gefs get mad, and rat out Steele to the Vasudans.
How unlikely?
[lurk]
-
VERY unlikely. On the order of "it won't happen, ever." One of the biggest reasons the GTVA instigated the current war is the massive industrial base of Sol (repeatedly stated to be on par with the entire rest of the GTVA by itself), along with Ubuntu being an ideological bomb waiting to go off. The fact that Admiral Steele is willing to damage that infrastructure to end the war more quickly speaks volumes to how badly the war is perceived to be going back home.*
And this all leaves aside that the population of the GTVA would go berserk if the government that promised to protect them from Shivans went and nuked to hell and back the most significant bastion of human population and culture in existence.
*NEW THEORY: Steele launched the campaign against the infrastructure close to Earth and Luna specifically to draw out the toughest and boldest (or brashest) of the UEF fleet to open them to defeat in detail.
-
Outside of the Fedayeen and the special project, I tend to frame the GTVA's side of the conflict in terms of profit and loss: how much can we gain for much how of our own forces? Destroying UEF infrastructure tends to reduce the former; losing your own forces reduce the later.
-
VERY unlikely. On the order of "it won't happen, ever." One of the biggest reasons the GTVA instigated the current war is the massive industrial base of Sol (repeatedly stated to be on par with the entire rest of the GTVA by itself), along with Ubuntu being an ideological bomb waiting to go off. The fact that Admiral Steele is willing to damage that infrastructure to end the war more quickly speaks volumes to how badly the war is perceived to be going back home.*
And this all leaves aside that the population of the GTVA would go berserk if the government that promised to protect them from Shivans went and nuked to hell and back the most significant bastion of human population and culture in existence.
*NEW THEORY: Steele launched the campaign against the infrastructure close to Earth and Luna specifically to draw out the toughest and boldest (or brashest) of the UEF fleet to open them to defeat in detail.
Damage but not completely destroy. Notice he never went after Sol's anti-matter production facilities (around mercury or venus), most likely because it is expensive to replace and fairly valuable, whereas the basic logistical facilities and factories that were bombed on Luna can be replaced in a matter of months once the war ends. The UEF also lost control of Jupiter, Neptune and I think Saturn, which cut them off from their main sources of fuel. The strike on Earth's orbital facilities greatly exacerbated that situation.
-
Sol's antimatter production facilities...We talked about it and I think it was said, that they are not only hard to find, but even are not really around mercury or venus.
-
Sol's antimatter production facilities...We talked about it and I think it was said, that they are not only hard to find, but even are not really around mercury or venus.
Since that is where explosives for vital war materials are being produced there has to be regular shipments that can be tracked.
-
Sol's antimatter production facilities...We talked about it and I think it was said, that they are not only hard to find, but even are not really around mercury or venus.
Since that is where explosives for vital war materials are being produced there has to be regular shipments that can be tracked.
That was countered with "Space is a damn huge place and you can not simply track everything in Sol.
So why haven't the Imp or the one ship of Serkr simply jumped after the Indus, if subspace tracking is that easy?
-
If they tracked Indus, they'd know it jumped into the sun, so nobody wanted to chase it.
Though I'm not working on the stroy, so I don't know.
-
Subspace tracking is easy, IF you have an emplaced sensor net (Which is why the GTVA had to go through 18 months of uphill battles until the battle of Artemis Station, because 3rd Fleet was able to track their movements all the way).
-
But does subspace tracking also work close to the sun? I wouldn't be surprised if the massive gravity of a very close star and all the radiation and heat would make finding or tracking anything there very hard. Unless of course listening is your speciallity ;)
-
I think it's safe to say the Sun and planets are massive subspace sinks.
-
It does. On the other hand, would you like to follow a ship that just jumped into a star at such distance it will not be able to recover, nor charge it's drive in time to escape being fried?
Because all GTVA ships on site had their drives not charged and didn't wanted to risk getting burned to crisps, none of them was really eager to follow. Nobody really knew that Maysaf will arrive.
-
If they tracked Indus, they'd know it jumped into the sun, so nobody wanted to chase it.
Though I'm not working on the stroy, so I don't know.
It's been a while since I've played but wasn't the Indus somewhat trashed by the jump to the sun?
-
If they tracked Indus, they'd know it jumped into the sun, so nobody wanted to chase it.
Though I'm not working on the stroy, so I don't know.
It's been a while since I've played but wasn't the Indus somewhat trashed by the jump to the sun?
It was/ is.
-
It was damaged by the battle and by making a crash jump, so even if they had jumped to a save location they'd still have been in a bad shape. Nothing live threatening (unless the GTVA came after them), but still bad.
-
Nothing live threatening (unless the GTVA came after them), but still bad.
Err, being bathed in radiation with half the hull and other radiation protections nuked, and half the crew dead or close to by said radiations, isn't what I'd call "nothing live threatening".
-
Nothing live threatening (unless the GTVA came after them), but still bad.
Err, being bathed in radiation with half the hull and other radiation protections nuked, and half the crew dead or close to by said radiations, isn't what I'd call "nothing live threatening".
He said if they jumped into a more or less safe location, not into solar orbit. Yes, the radiation caused by bombs is high, but it is better than the radiation caused there.
Or I just misunderstanded.
-
Hum, true. I shouldn't post when barely awake.
And yeah. If the Indus had ended up in the middle of nowhere instead of in low Sol orbit, unless it was close-tailed by tevs, it would probably have ended better for her. Maybe it might even have been salvaged and repaired to fight another day.
-
I think the Indus crashjumping into the gravity well of the Sun is actually a blessing in disguise, reasons discussed above. They can definitely track where the Indus'll go and that Serkr corvette definitely'll go after the Indus to blow it up, if not the billions of bombers if the Indus didn't jump out near the Sun.
Is the Indus too damaged and radioactive to be used? Can't it be like, taken apart and built again with new stuff, or decontaminated?
-
I'd assume that, like anything else, once a Karuna sustains a certain degree of damage, it becomes cheaper to build a new one than repair it. No real way to say whether the Indus is past this point or not.
-
On the other hand the Indus does have a psychological value too. It went through pretty much every major battle we know of, except the battles of Neptune and came out alive every time and often even victorious.
And the difference between total annihilation of the wargods and one ship surviving isn't to be underestimated either. "They got pounded hard, but they are still kicking" rather than "They were wiped out to the last woman and man".
So even if building a new ship would be more costly, it might still be worth it to salvage the Indus, if it's possible.
-
Nothing to stop a clandestine Terran organisation from building a new version of the ship with new enhancements and crewing the ship with the survivors for their own agenda :P
-
Nothing to stop a clandestine Terran organisation from building a new version of the ship with new enhancements and crewing the ship with the survivors for their own agenda :P
And I thought most of the crewmen were "rescued" by the Fedayeen...
-
Most of the crewmen were dead. Half of those who survived are probably so badly radiation-poisoned they're probably not gonna be ready for active service for a while, if at all. So, yeah, they'll need a new crew.